1 100 8 https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka/files/original/b04816d49be28e9a8bd4764275639c87.pdf 3b4ca33d66e21c6afb4584f654d4d835 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title UCF Community Veterans History Project Collection Description As part of RICHES of Central Florida, UCF intends to record, archive, and make accessible oral history interviews of Central Florida veterans. Diversity is a main focus for this project since there are many different subgroups under the group veterans, all with important stories. While the histories will be largely archived and made available through the UCF library, a portion will be contributed to the ongoing Veterans History Project based out of the Library of Congress. Contributor <a href="http://library.ucf.edu/about/departments/special-collections-university-archives/" target="_blank">Special Collections and University Archives</a>, University of Central Florida Libraries, University of Central Florida Alternative Title CVHP Collection Subject Veterans--Florida United States. Army Army United States. Navy Navy United States. Air Force Air Force United States. Marine Corps Marine Corps Is Part Of <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>. Language eng Type Collection Coverage Jacksonville, Florida Orlando, Florida Honolulu, Hawaii Pearl Harbor, Hawaii Great Lakes, Illinois Long Island, New York Newport, Rhode Island Norfolk, Virginia Germany Qaasuitsup, Greenland Keflavik, Southern Peninsula, Iceland Azores Islands, Portugal Mediterranean Sea Contributing Project <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a> Curator Cepero, Laura Digital Collection <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a> Source Repository <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida External Reference "<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">About the Project</a>." UCF Community Veterans History Project, RICHES of Central Florida, University of Central Florida. http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/. Has Part <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/109" target="_blank">Lone Sailor Navy Memorial History Project Collection</a>, UCF Community Veterans History Project, RICHES of Central Florida. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer Johnson, Taylor Interviewee Wheeler, Terry W. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title Oral History of Terry W. Wheeler Alternative Title Oral History, Wheeler Subject Veterans--Florida Army Description An oral history interview of Terry W. Wheeler (b. 1959), who served in the U.S. Army, during the Cold War. Wheeler was born in Fort Lee, Virginia, in 1959. He joined the Reserve Officers' Training Corps (ROTC) and was commissioned into the Army on December 28, 1981. He earned the rank of Captain, as well as several awards and commendations: the Army Service Ribbon, the Overseas Service Ribbon, the Army Achievement Medal, and the Army Commendation Medal. Wheeler served in Fort Knox, Kentucky, Schweinfurt, West Germany, and Fort Benning, Georgia. This interview was conducted by Taylor Johnson at the University of Central Florida (UCF) on November 13, 2014. Interview topics include training at Fort Knox, duties as an Armor Officer, assignment in West Germany, Fort Benning, duties as a Tank Company commander, combat simulations, resigning from the Army and attending graduate school, and employment in the private sector. Table Of Contents 0:00:00 Introduction 0:00:32 Background 0:01:52 Enlistment 0:02:25 Training and duties as an Armor Officer 0:05:41 Germany 0:07:16 Inner German border and gunnery 0:08:47 Interaction with Germans and most memorable day 0:10:39 Free time, contacting family, and fellow servicemembers 0:12:00 Fort Benning, Georgia 0:13:46 Tank Company Commander and combat simulations 0:16:22 Resignation and graduate school 0:17:57 Awards and most memorable aspect of service 0:18:41 Post-Army career 0:19:27 Effect of service on civilian life 0:20:21 Closing remarks Abstract Oral history interview of Terry W. Wheeler. Interview conducted by Taylor Johnson at the University of Central Florida in Orlando, Florida, on November 13, 2014. Type Moving Image Source <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/433/rec/1" target="_blank">Wheeler, Terry W.</a> Interviewed by Taylor Johnson, November 13, 2014. Audio/video record available. Item DP0016010, UCF Community Veterans History Project, Special Collections and University Archives, University of Central Florida Libraries, Orlando, Florida. Requires <a href="http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/" target="_blank"> Adobe Flash Player</a> <a href="http://java.com/en/download/index.jsp" target="_blank"> Java</a> <a href="https://get.adobe.com/reader/" target="_blank">Adobe Acrobat Reader</a> Is Part Of <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, Orlando, Florida. <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/24" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project Collection</a>, RICHES of Central Florida. Has Format 15-page digital transcript of original 21-minute and 11-second oral history: <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/433/rec/1" target="_blank">Wheeler, Terry W.</a> Interviewed by Taylor Johnson, November 13, 2014. Audio/video record available. Item DP0016010, UCF Community Veterans History Project, Special Collections and University Archives, University of Central Florida Libraries, Orlando, Florida. Conforms To Standards established by the <a href="http://www.loc.gov/vets/" target="_blank">Veterans History Projects</a>, Library of Congress. Coverage Fort Knox, Kentucky Schweinfurt, Lower Franconia, Bavaria, Germany U.S. Army Infrantry School, Fort Benning, Georgia Creator Wheeler, Terry W. Johnson, Taylor Publisher <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a> Date Created 2014-11-13 Date Issued 2015-01 Date Copyrighted 2014-11-13 Format application/website application/pdf Extent 181 MB 166 KB Medium 21-minute and 11-second DVD/MP4 aduio/video recording 15-page digital transcript Language eng Mediator History Teacher Civics/Government Teacher Geography Teacher Provenance Originally created by Taylor Johnson and Terry W. Wheeler and published by <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>. Rights Holder <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a> Accrual Method Item Creation Contributing Project <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a> Curator Cepero, Laura Digital Collection <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a> Source Repository <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a> External Reference Hawkins, John Palmer. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/44713137" target="_blank">Army of Hope, Army of Alienation: Culture and Contradiction in the American Army Communities of Cold War Germany</a>. Westport, Conn: Praeger, 2001. Click to View (Movie, Podcast, or Website) <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/433/rec/1" target="_blank">Wheeler, Terry W.</a> Transcript Johnson Today is November 13th, 2014. I’m interviewing Terry [W.] Wheeler, who served in the Army from 1981 to 1990. I’m Taylor Johnson. Mr. Wheeler served during the Cold War era. He spent time in Fort Knox, Kentucky; Schweinfurt[, Lower Franconia, Bavaria], Germany; and [U.S. Army Infantry School] Fort Benning, Georgia. My name’s Taylor Johnson, again. We’re interviewing Mr. Wheeler as a part of the UCF [University of Central Florida] Community Veterans History Project. We’re recording this interview at the University of Central Florida in Orlando, Florida. So my first question is: where were you born? Wheeler I was born in Fort Lee, Virginia. Johnson And when were you born? Wheeler 1959. Fort Lee is a military post, and that is the—that is the Army hospital on post[?]. Johnson So you—sorry. Wheeler That’s okay. Johnson So you grew up on a military post? Wheeler My dad was in the military, and we grew up—I grew up in, uh, location to location, across the United States and Europe, until he retired in 1971. Johnson So what did your father do for the military? Wheeler He was a logistics officer. He was a ward officer [clears throat], and, uh, he—he spent, uh, time in WWII [World War II], Korea[n War], and three tours in Vietnam [War]. Johnson So what did your mother do for a living? Wheeler She was a housewife, Uh, up until about the time my dad retired, and then she came back into the workforce. Johnson Do you have any siblings? Wheeler No, I don’t. Johnson So what did you do before you entered the service? Wheeler I was in college. I was a ROTC [Reserve Officers’ Training Corps] cadet at Gonzaga University, and so I was a college student. Johnson What did you study? Wheeler I was a business major. Johnson Um, so do you have any other family members that served in the military? Wheeler Um, uncles. My—my dad’s oldest brother was killed during World War II. Uh, his old—his younger brother served in the Navy. His other younger brother served in the Air Force, and then I have cousins who have served in the military also. Johnson So what prompted you to enter the military? Wheeler It’s a—it’s a very easy decision to make, if you grew up in a military family. Uh, it was just a logical progression of what I would like to do to serve, and so I made that decision—when I was in high school—that I was gonna serve. Johnson Um… Wheeler [clears throat]. Johnson So how did your family members feel about you entering the service? Wheeler Uh, they were very supportive. They were not, uh, overly pushing me towards that decision. It was my own decision to make. Uh, my mother was not as happy with that decision as she would’ve been if I had stayed in the civilian side, uh, but that’s the way it turned out. Johnson Um, so what were your first days in the service like? Wheeler I came in at the end of December 1981, and came on active duty, and went to my basic qualification course at Fort Knox. I was an Armor Officer, and so, for the next four and a half months, I spent time at Fort Knox learning how to be a platoon leader—a second Lieutenant, and then I was assigned to Germany after that. Johnson So what did you do as an Armor Officer? Wheeler Well, sp—the position that I was in was, uh, a cavalry position. That is a sub-branch of the armor—a subsection of the armor. Uh, Cavalry is a screen unit—a—a scout unit, if you will, that works in a divisional or regimental level. Basically, the cav’s mission is to, uh, screen and be the leading edge of a, uh—of the unit, uh, in the advance, to screen the flanks to make sure there are no surprises. So it’s very, very light, very, very fast reconnaissance. Johnson Um, so what was your initial training like? Wheeler Four and a half months of learning everything, from personnel actions to vehicle repair to how to employ the weapons systems on all the vehicles that we are going to be assigned, Radio communications. I mean, the entire gamut that you would expect to serve in that posi—in a ge—in that position as a leader. Uh, second lieutenant platoon leader is an entry-level position for combat arms. Um, Basically, uh, you’re in charge of about 38 soldiers and about—at that—at that point in time [sighs]—let me count vehicles real quick—about 13 vehicles. Johnson Um,okay. Wheeler [clears throat]. Johnson So what do you remember most about your time in training? Wheeler Time in training? Johnson Mmhmm. Wheeler Fort Knox, in the wintertime, is very cold. As Germany is very cold. Um, it was a lot of fun. We learned a lot in a very short amount of time, and, uh, long days, long nights, and it was a really good building experience. Uh, the people that you meet, in that same course, are people that[sic] you serve with in the military throughout your career, and it is a boomerang-type effect, because you come back together. They’re sent to units, you’re sent to units, you run into them for training exercises or operational deployments. You come back together for training over time, and so you’re building a cohort of—of people that you serve with throughout the rest of your career. Johnson Um… Wheeler [clears throat]. Johnson What type of advanced training did you receive, if any? Wheeler Um, really, advanced is not key to this, at that point. Um, basically, you know, eh, for the armor side, you come in, you’re given, uh, the tra—the base training, and you go out and be a platoon leader, and you spend a couple years doing that. If you’re selected for the advanced course, then you come back as a ju—a senior lieutenant or a junior-grade captain, and go through another six-month type course, where they lear—they—you need to learn how to be an effective commander of a small unit—a Company Commander. At the end of that, then you go out and serve a utilization tour, being a leader at that level. So it’s, you know, two grades up, and then, at that point, then you—you split off in your career, and pull the secondary career, and so you split off into another area, and so, at that point then—rom that point forward in your career you, flip flop between your primary and your secondary specialty. So I really didn’t have advanced training, other than the fact that I went through the career course as a Captain, and then commanded a unit. Johnson Okay, um… Wheeler [clears throat] Excuse me. Johnson So when did you find out that you were going to Germany? Wheeler Um, April 1982. Right at the end—I received orders for that, right as I was finishing up my qualification course. Johnson And how did you react to that news? Wheeler I was very happy. I had spent two years in Germany as a child. I already spoke fluent German, and so it was not a huge, life-changing experience to go over there. Um, usually what you walk as a—as an American, when you walk into Germany—not having served there, not having any background to it—you go through a couple weeks of qualif—uh, of familiarization, where you learn rudimentary language, and I was not—I was able to just bypass that and mainstream right in. Johnson Um, so what was, uh—what was a routine day like during your assignment in Germany? Wheeler Well, [clears throat] I can give you a routine—a, uh, better description than that. For the first year that I was there as a platoon leader, we were in the field 280 days out of 365 days that year. We would deploy out for a, uh—a 30-day session on a border camp, where we would patrol the East German<a title="">[1]</a> interzonal border. From that, we would get on the train and go to a gunnery—three or four weeks of tank gunnery, and from that, we would deploy to a field exercise, go home for two weeks, and then go back to the border for 30 days. So we spent most of our time out actually doing our real world mission, at that point. Um, up at six in the morning, uh, some pu—some, uh—in effect, through midnight—one in the morning. I mean, it was a very, very, very dynamic, high stress, long day environment. Johnson So what did you do in each of those three sort of positions? Wheeler At the border camp, we were responsible to patrol a section of border of—of the East German interzonal border. This was still when the [Berlin] Wall was up. between 2nd ACR [Armored Calvary Regiment] and 11th ACR, we had this—this—this piece of the border that had to be actually manned, and stood ready to—to announce that any—any incursion had come across the border. We were fully combat-loaded. We were deployed there 30 days at a time. We spent 10 days, eh, in a steady reaction state of walking around, with full gear loaded on, helmets in our hands, ready to walk out the gate with five minutes notice to go to our general positions and fight a war. Okay? We spent 10 days in training. We spent 10 days doing actual patrols in jeeps up and down the interzonal border. Uh, it is the—It was the—other than Korea—at that point, it was—we were one of the most forward-deployed units in the Army, at that time. All the vehicles were fully uploaded with the ammunition and ready to go. Johnson So what did you do at the gunnery? Wheeler Gunnery was—there’s a—there’s a—a full qualification session that you have to—to do in tanks to maintain proficiency, and you do that more than two to three—four times a year, and so you would go, and there were actually exercises that you run, shooting live guns, live ammunition at the range, and you qualify as a tank crew, as a section of two, platoon of four, and a company of 12, and so it is, basically, you know, move and shoot, and communicate, and prov—proving proficiency that you can do that. Johnson What did you think of the Germans? Wheeler Well, uh, where we were stationed in Germany, it was in—it was in the very northern end of Bavaria. Germans were very, very polite people. Uh, very welcoming. Um, I’m not so sure that the Germans really enjoyed being occupied still after 40 years of—after the end of the [World] War [II], but, uh, they were very nice. Uh, they—if you spoke German, or at least tried to fit in and blend in, you get a lot further than being an ugly American, and, uh, it was a very pleasant place, and we saw a lot of it riding in the back of a military vehicle. Johnson What was your most memorable day during that assignment? Wheeler Give me a second. Um, [clears throat] we had a soldier that died in a training accident, and the aftermath of that was really hard to deal with. Uh, It was not his—it was not a—a—a, uh—a safety issue that was the direct cause. It truly was an accident. Uh, The tank that he was riding in, uh, went over, uh—now, in Germany—back in the Germany, uh, the train—a lot of the trains and some of the streetcars would run with electricity, and they had these high tension wires overhead, and he was riding in a tank, and the—the antenna on his tank, uh, snapped loose and the antenna went up and hit the top of the—of the high voltage wire, and it arced electricity through the vehicle, and the vehicle basically exploded, and three of the—of the four crew were able to get out, and he was unable to get out, and he passed away. So that was very difficult to deal with. Uh, seeing the aftermath of that [clears throat], having to pull the tank apart, trying to take his remains out, you know, that kind of thing. So that—that was a very memorable day. Johnson Um, what did you do with your free time, while you were in Germany? Wheeler Traveled. Johnson Uh, can you tell me about that? Wheeler A—again, we were deployed most of the time. So when there was a free couple of day—a week—a weekend, or a free three- or four-day event, we would get in the car and disappear. Drove all over Bavaria, uh, spent time in France [clears throat], spent some time, uh, in Northern Germany. Um, basically just enjoying the, uh—the countryside and the people. Johnson Um, so how did you stay in touch with your family while you were overseas? Wheeler We didn’t have email, at that time. Computers were still brand new [clears throat]. So it was by post. Uh, Telephone calls were very expensive, so telephones didn’t really get figured into that, so letters. Johnson And what do you remember about the people that you served with, while you were there? Wheeler I still have friends that I’ve stayed in contact with, after all these years. That was, uh, 1982-1983-1984 timeframe. I still stay in touch with a few of ‘em. Uh, Very dedicated group of people, um, very like-minded. Uh, you find in the military that not just the clothes you wear make you the same. Very, very similar backgrounds, characteristics, views on the world, and, uh, it was a very, very good time to be a young officer, at that point. Johnson Um, and what was it like when you came back to the U.S.? Wheeler They call the flight from Germany to the United States the “freedom bird” for a reason. Uh, everyone’s happy to come home. Uh, it is a great feeling of—of, uh, assimilation back into society [clears throat], into the culture that you—you are in. It—and, you know, it is—it is—it wasn’t different, at that point in time. It was Europe, and different language, different money, different feel. It was—it was coming home. So it was very nice to come back to the States. Johnson Um, and what do you remember about Fort Benning? Wheeler [clears throat] Benning is the home of the Infantry [Branch]. Uh, It is—it is a[sic], uh, Infantry training center. Ranger School’s there, Airborne School, Pathfinder [School]. Um, I was assigned to the 2nd Battalion, 69th Armor [Regiment], at that—at that point, and we went and we were part of a round—we were part of a—a, uh, brigade that was a round-out element for the, uh, rapid deployment force—XVIII Airborne Corps. So we were, again, fairly—fairly well getting ready to be on, you know—on a couple hours’ notice, ready to deploy into the world, but, uh, it was—it was a great training opportunity. We were the only armor unit on post. So we would get tagged for a lot of fire demonstrations and combined arms demonstrations, when the—when the—when the, uh, senior, uh, officers would come—come into town [clears throat], and so we spent a lot of time working with the Infantry. We really refined the—the union—the union of the true mechanized team, at that point. So it was not armor pure. It was that combined arms element that we really struggled to, uh, put in place, and it was really, really great training opportunity. Johnson Did you receive any advanced training for your job as a Tank Company Commander? Wheeler Yeah, I went through the advanced course. That was, ah—so coming back from Germany, I spent six months again at Fort Knox, going through the next phase of that course and came out, eh, eh, basically ready to be a Company Commander. So when I was—I was deployed to Benning, I spent the next, uh, 16 months as a Maintenance Officer for a battalion, and then was assigned as a Company Commander, and spent, uh, [sighs] another probably 18 to 20 months, I guess, as a Tank Company Commander. Johnson Um… Wheeler [clears throat]. Johnson So what can you tell me about your job with combat simulations—the combat simulations branch? Wheeler At the end of my command time, uh, I picked my secondary specialty as Operations Research and Systems Analysis, and there was a group that was doing that type of work attached to the Infantry center, and so I went in, and I was a—an Executive Officer for this small group that used computers—which were very, very, uh, elementary, as compared to what we have now—to do war gaming, to look at how new equipment inserted into a battlefield would make a differential change. So basically, you would take the characteristics of—of a new weapon system, and you would deploy that with—so you’d run simulations without that weapon system and you would run simulations with that weapons system, and look for the differentials that you could achieve and how much more advantage it gave you. It was part of the co—cost and operational effectiveness analysis for getting those systems to be brought online. Johnson Um, so—I lost my place. Um, what was a routine day like while you were in Georgia? Wheeler Um, at—at the—at the, uh—at the armor group job? Or in the, uh—the simulations job? Johnson Um, either one. Wheeler Armor job—realistically, almost every line unit almost has the exact same type of training as—same type of day. Uh, up in the morning, depending on, you know—three days a week you run PT [physical training] from six o’clock to seven o’clock, have a shower, be back at—at work at—at eight for formation. Going through the day, whether training, or maintenance, or what have you, and are usually done by six o’clock at night, Uh, Back home to families. Um, the—the Executive Officer’s job is—at the branch, we would spend the day doing the same thing. We would do PT a couple days a week, and then, um, go into what was more of an office-style environment to do those simulations. Um, we had a staff of about eight members—both soldiers and civilians—that worked that group, and we would do these simulation exercises on the computers. Johnson So what was it like when your service ended? Wheeler Um, [clears throat] I made the decision to—to, uh, resign my commission and come out of active duty, uh, in early spring of 1990. Um, my secondary priority[?]—I had already worked at my secondary specialty for two years, and was unable to get the Army to agree to send me to grad[uate] school for a funded grad program, and I had watched officers who had gone through the Army non-funded program and the funded grad program, come out and see how effective they were in that job, and the ones that[sic] were coming out, not having gone to grad school, were not being retained, and I was not selected to go through the grad program, so that basically was the de—deciding point [clears throat] that, if I couldn’t do that and retain my time—because I figured, at that point, I would not be able to continue. I elected to resign and get out, and then I, uh, applied for grad school and went to grad school. Um, My ETS [Expiration Term of Service] was June 30th, 1990, and the Army froze all separation actions July 15th, for the [Persian] Gulf War. So that was immediately—I mean, it was—it days before the Gulf War jumped from there, almost. Johnson Um, so what did you study when you went to grad school? Wheeler I studied information systems, and, uh, spend 18 months in grad school. Johnson Um, What can you tell us about the awards that you received from the Army? Wheeler Very, very common, uh, awards that people, you know—you spend eight years doing that. Um, nothing—nothing major. Um, you know, Army Achievement Medals for stuff, and, uh, that’s pretty much it. Nothing major. Johnson Um, and what was the most memorable thing overall about your time in the service? Wheeler You know, as I alluded to earlier, uh, it is a—it is a great pleasure to spend time with people of a like mind. Okay? I found a lot of the people, that[sic] I spent time with, had the same values, same views on the world, politics, that I did, and so it was a brotherhood, and just the—the people that[sic] I—and the friendships, I guess, that I had—had gained, and the relationships from work that I had from that group of people is what I retained from that. Johnson Um, and what was your job after you left the service. Wheeler When I came out I went to grad school and finished grad school at Syracuse [University], and, uh, [clears throat] I went to work for IBM [International Business Machines Corporation] as an intern, did that for about nine months, and then came into the private sector. Johnson Um, and what are you doing now? Wheeler I am currently the director of IT [information technology] services for the Student Development and Enrollment Services division here<a title="">[2]</a> on campus. Johnson So what can you tell me about that? Wheeler Basically, SDES is the largest division on campus. We have about 2,400 staff that we maintain computer action for servers for, so desktop, laptop, database, uh, web design, and that’s what we encompass. So basically, I run the services side of that group. Johnson Um, and how has your time in the military affected your life since then? Wheeler There hasn’t really been an effect since then. It was a—any time you transition from the military to the ci—the civilian sector, it can create a period of—of, uh, change, I guess you would say. Uh, going from the major activities, and the mindset, and the—the guidelines that we do into what the civilian world does not encompass. Um, it took about a year—a year and a half—to go through that and actually transition the mindset away. Johnson And do you belong to any veterans groups? Wheeler No, I do not. Johnson What do you do with your free time since you left the service? Wheeler Uh, I have—I have children. So pretty much now it’s just work and—and, you know, time with family and Boy Scouts [of America]. Johnson Um, and what would you say to someone who is contemplating enlisting or becoming a commissioned officer today? Wheeler Military service is an honor, and, uh, it’s a calling that, if you’re called to do, you really want to without any real reason to explain why, and it’s a very, very honorable thing to do, and if that is—if that is a design that is something that interests someone to do, I encourage them fully to accept that and enjoy. Johnson Um, is there anything that we haven’t talked about that you would like to talk about? Wheeler No, ma’am. Johnson Alright. Well, thank you for your time, and for coming to talk with me today, and thank you for your service. I appreciate your participation, and we will be in touch with you once we have a copy of your interview. Wheeler Thank you. Johnson Thank you. <div> <div> <a title="">[1]</a> German Democratic Republic (GDR). </div> <div> <a title="">[2]</a> At the University of Central Florida. </div> </div> 11th ACR 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment 18th Airborne Corps 2nd ACR 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment 2nd Battalion 2nd Lieutenant 69th Armor Regiment Achievement Medal ACR advanced training Airborne Corps Armor Officer Armor Regiment Armored Cavalry Regiment basic training Bavaria, Germany Berlin Wall Blachorse Regiment cavalry COEA cold war combat simulations Community Veterans History Project Company Commander cost and operational effectiveness analysis CVHP deployments East Germany Eighteenth Airborne Corps Eleventh Armored Cavalry Regiment enlistment Executive Officer Federal Republic of Germany Fort Benning, Georgia Fort Knox, Kentucky Fort Lee, Virginia Free State of Bavaria freedom birds FRG German Democratic Republic Germans Germany Infantry Branch information technology inner German border IT lieutenants Maintenance Officer military training Operations Research/Systems Analysis ORSA rapid deployment force Reserve Officers' Training Corps ROTC Schweinfurt, Germany scouts SDES Second ACR Second Armored Cavalry Regiment Second Battalion Second Lieutenant simulation training Sixty-Ninth Armor Regiument Student Development and Enrollment Services Tank Company Commander Taylor Johnson Terry W. Wheeler U.S. Army U.S. Army Infrantry School, Fort Benning, Georgia UCF UCF SDES UCF Student Development and Enrollment Services veterans weapon systems West Germany XVIII Airborne Corps https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka/files/original/e979574868da94f6a20a3fa283e68f35.pdf 982bb5a46631a8d53dec5fa885f4f54e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title UCF Community Veterans History Project Collection Description As part of RICHES of Central Florida, UCF intends to record, archive, and make accessible oral history interviews of Central Florida veterans. Diversity is a main focus for this project since there are many different subgroups under the group veterans, all with important stories. While the histories will be largely archived and made available through the UCF library, a portion will be contributed to the ongoing Veterans History Project based out of the Library of Congress. Contributor <a href="http://library.ucf.edu/about/departments/special-collections-university-archives/" target="_blank">Special Collections and University Archives</a>, University of Central Florida Libraries, University of Central Florida Alternative Title CVHP Collection Subject Veterans--Florida United States. Army Army United States. Navy Navy United States. Air Force Air Force United States. Marine Corps Marine Corps Is Part Of <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>. Language eng Type Collection Coverage Jacksonville, Florida Orlando, Florida Honolulu, Hawaii Pearl Harbor, Hawaii Great Lakes, Illinois Long Island, New York Newport, Rhode Island Norfolk, Virginia Germany Qaasuitsup, Greenland Keflavik, Southern Peninsula, Iceland Azores Islands, Portugal Mediterranean Sea Contributing Project <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a> Curator Cepero, Laura Digital Collection <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a> Source Repository <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida External Reference "<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">About the Project</a>." UCF Community Veterans History Project, RICHES of Central Florida, University of Central Florida. http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/. Has Part <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/109" target="_blank">Lone Sailor Navy Memorial History Project Collection</a>, UCF Community Veterans History Project, RICHES of Central Florida. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title Oral History of Ray Sturm Alternative Title Oral History, Sturm Subject Veterans--Florida Army Description An oral history interview of Ray Sturm (b. 1963), who served in the U.S. Army from 1983 to 1989. Sturm was born in Winter Park, Florida, on October 22, 1963. He enlisted in the Army in 1983 and completed his basic training and advanced training at Fort Jackson in Columbia, South Carolina. Sturm then served at Herzo Base in Herzogenaurach, Germany. He served in the 210th Field Artillery Brigade and 34th Infantry Division, and achieved the rank of Sergeant. This interview was conducted by Katie Hollingsworth in Orlando, Florida, on November 13, 2014. Interview topics include basic training and advanced training at Fort Jackson, Herzo Base, his rank as Sergeant, Fort Stewart, the 24th Infantry Division, comradery, Sturm's interest in music, and his post-military life. Table Of Contents 0:00:00 Introduction 0:00:31 Background 0:02:35 Enlistment 0:05:05 Basic training and advanced training 0:07:53 Herzo Base 0:16:58 Sergeant rank 0:22:00 Fort Stewart and the 24th Infantry Division 0:25:41 Comradery and music 0:28:26 Post-military education 0:30:44 Keeping in touch with other soldiers 0:33:05 Military's influence on life 0:35:35 Advice to current service members 0:37:07 Post-military hobbies 0:39:49 Closing remarks Abstract Oral history interview of Ray Sturm. Interview conducted by Katie Hollingsworth at the University of Central Florida in Orlando, Florida on November 13, 2014. Type Moving Image Source <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/465/rec/1" target="_blank">Sturm, Ray</a>. Interviewed by Katie Hollingsworth, November 13, 2014. Audio/video record available. Item DP0016004, UCF Community Veterans History Project, Special Collections and University Archives, University of Central Florida Libraries, Orlando, Florida. Requires <a href="http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/" target="_blank">Adobe Flash Player</a> <a href="http://java.com/en/download/index.jsp" target="_blank">Java</a> <a href="https://get.adobe.com/reader/" target="_blank">Adobe Acrobat Reader</a> Is Part Of <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, Special Collections and University Archives, University of Central Florida Libraries, Orlando, Florida. <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/24" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project Collection</a>, RICHES of Central Florida. Has Format 26-page digital transcript of original 42-minute and 14-second oral history: <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/465/rec/1" target="_blank">Sturm, Ray</a>. Interviewed by Katie Hollingsworth, November 13, 2014. Audio/video record available. Item DP0016004, UCF Community Veterans History Project, Special Collections and University Archives, University of Central Florida Libraries, Orlando, Florida. Conforms To Standards established by the <a href="http://www.loc.gov/vets/" target="_blank">Veterans History Projects</a>, Library of Congress. Coverage Winter Park, Florida Fort Jackson, Columbia, South Carolina Herzo Base, Herzogenaurach, Hesse, Germany Fort Stewart, Georgia University of Central Florida, Orlando, Florida Creator Sturm, Ray Hollingsworth, Katie Publisher <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a> Date Created 2014-11-13 Date Copyrighted 2014-11-13 Format application/website application/pdf Extent 362 MB 228 KB Medium 42-minute and 14-second Digital (DAT) audio/video recording 26-page digital transcript Language eng Mediator History Teacher Civics/Government Teacher Geography Teacher Provenance Originally created by Katie Hollingsworth and Ray Sturm and published by <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>. Rights Holder <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a> Accrual Method Item Creation Contributing Project <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a> Curator Cepero, Laura Digital Collection <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a> External Reference Nelson, Harold W. <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">The Army</a>. Arlington, Va: Army Historical Foundation, 2001. Click to View (Movie, Podcast, or Website) <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/465/rec/1" target="_blank">Sturm, Ray</a> Transcript Sturm And, by the way, I assume this is going to be edited? Hollingsworth No. Sturm No? Okay. Alright. Hollingsworth Okay. So Today—it is the 13th of November, 2014, and I am interviewing Dr. Ray Sturm, who served in the U.S. Army as a Sergeant in the 210th Field Artillery Brigade, 34th Infantry Division. I am interviewing Dr. Sturm as part of the UCF [University of Central Florida] Community Veterans History Project. We are recording this interview in Orlando, Florida. Hollingsworth So when and where were you born? Sturm Uh, I was born right here in Central Florida. I was born inWinter Park, uh, in [October 22,] 1963. Hollingsworth Okay, and, uh, what did your parents do for a living? Sturm Uh, my dad was a CPA [Certified Public Accountant], and my mom was a homemaker. Hollingsworth Um, how big was your family? Sturm Uh, just the three of us. Well, and… Hollingsworth Just the three of you? Sturm And my grandmother lived with us… Hollingsworth Oh. Sturm Uh, until I was about 10 years old. Hollingsworth And, um, what do you remember mostly about your childhood? Sturm Um, what do I remember mostly? Hollingsworth [laughs] Mmhmm[?]. Sturm Um, having a lot of fun [laughs], and, uh, like—you know, like we, uh, had talked about earlier, uh, actually growing up near the Navy base. Uh, we were just two blocks from the Navy base there. Um, and that kind of impacted, uh—impacted our lives a little bit. Hollingsworth And, uh, what kind of education did you receive? Sturm Well, after high school, um, and after, uh, my military service, uh, I got my Bachelor’s, uh, [degree] and Master’s [degree] from University of Central Florida. So Bachelor’s in accounting, Master’s in taxation, um, and then I received a, uh, Doctorate [degree] in finance from Florida Atlantic University. Hollingsworth Okay, and, um, before you enlisted, what did you—what sort of things did you enjoy doing? Sturm Um, I enjoyed surfing. I enjoyed surfing and I enjoyed, uh, exercising. I was a—I was always very physical. So I ran track all through high school and—and in junior high. Um, and, uh, anything that involved sports I was, uh—I was interested in doing. Hollingsworth Uh, were any of your other family members in the military? Sturm Yes. Uh, yeah. My grandfather, um, was in the Army Corps of Engineers. Um, I think he was—I think that was actually a civilian position, But he was working in that. My, uh, step grandfather was, um, actually drafted in—I believe it was the Army, and, uh, he was drafted at like 40 years old, uh, in World War II. He was not—not very happy about that, and, um, my dad was in the Air Force, Which is what brought us down here to Central Florida in the first place. Hollingsworth Ah, and, Um, how aware were you of the Cold War, before you enlisted? Sturm Um, not very. Uh, you know, obviously, uh, I knew it was going on, but, uh, you know, I enlisted at 20 years old, so I wasn’t, uh—I wasn’t, uh, all that aware of, uh—of the Cold War. I was more aware of [the Invasion of] Grenada,<a title="">[1]</a> because I went in right a—a month after that happened. So[?]… Hollingsworth Yeah, uh, what influenced you to enlist? Sturm Um, lots of things. Uh, at that time, um, uh, I was in, uh—I was in college, but I wasn’t really a student yet. So, um, you know, I was—I was still—still seeking, and really just everything, at that time, uh, uh, pointed towards the military. Um, one of the rea—one of the main reasons I did go in though was: I had always had an interest in the military. I mean, I could—I could remember, even back in elementary school, doing a book report on World War II. You know, so I had always had an interest in the, uh—in the military, um, and just kind of, you know, the, um, spirit of the American soldier, I guess you could say. Hollingsworth Hm, and, uh, why did you choose the Army? Sturm Um, because I—when I went in, um, you know—like I said, I went in for a lot of reasons. uh, and I was actually very, uh—you know, I never planned on making it a career, but I did wanna do everything that I could do while I was in. um, and I figured that, uh, if—if I went in the Marines, uh, that I was going to have to be hardcore for three years, whether I liked it or not. Um, I didn’t want to go into the Navy, because the idea of being on a ship for nine months at a time didn’t appeal to me. Um, and I didn’t want to go into the Air Force, because I—I didn’t—I wasn’t aware of some of the, uh—some of the things that you could do in the Air Force, at that time. Um, but, uh, uh, I wanted to—I chose the Army, because I thought it was a good compromise between being, uh—uh, being very hardcore and not so much. So I went in that, uh, figuring that if I really liked it, then I could go that route. Uh, if I didn’t like it, I didn’t have to. Hollingsworth Okay, and, um, did your dad influence that decision at all? Sturm Nope. Hollingsworth Since he was from the Air Force? Sturm Nope. Hollingsworth Okay, but how did they react when you decided to enlist—your family? Sturm Well, my dad being a veteran, um, I—I think they were happy about it. Of course, you know, they’re concerned. You know, a parent—a, uh—a child going in the military is always a concern to the parent, but, um, I think that they were, um—I think that they were happy about it, uh, for the exact reason that it turned out, as the military, uh, um, helps you mature a lot, and you—you grow up—you grow up pretty quick. Hollingsworth Okay, and, uh, what do you remember most—what do you most remember about basic training? Sturm Um, boy, was it cold [laughs]. I went in—I was in, uh—uh, I went in November—November 9th[, 1983]. So, uh—so basic training was eight weeks, although we got, uh, Christmas exodus. So we got—I think we were out for like two weeks over Christmas, Which was very shocking to me, but, um—but it was cold. It was cold. Yeah. Hollingsworth And why was it cold? Where were you? Sturm Well, it was Fort Jackson[, Columbia], South Carolina, and, um, I did, uh, uh—I did both basic and, uh, AIT [Advanced Individual Training], uh, at Fort Jackson, uh, South Carolina. So I was there from November until probably about March [1984], I guess it would be, and, uh, you know, after I—after I went on from that, you know, I was—I was in Germany. You’ll probably be getting to that, but I was in Germany, uh, and we’d go to the field in the snow and all that kind of stuff, but the coldest day I’ve ever spent in my life was at Fort Jackson, South Carolina, um, out on the artillery range. Hollingsworth Did you receive any advanced training? Sturm Uh, well, just from my job. Ju—just from my job. I—I had wanted to, um—I wanted to go into [Army] Special Forces. Uh, and, uh, kinda—I—I ran into a lot of red tape, uh, start—starting with the fact that, if I had gone that route, I wouldn’t have been able to enlist for another year, and I really couldn’t wait that long, so I went in hoping that I would get in that route. Um, Things didn’t work out like that, but, uh, um, so I just—the—the, uh—really, the only advanced training I had was from my job. Hollingsworth Can you tell me more about your job? Sturm Um, I was in logistics. I was in supply, and, um, uh, so, you know, again, I took that at—at Fort Jackson, and, uh, one of the things that I—I learned about that in there is when you watch this—particularly like the old World War II movies—uh, you know, you see the stereotypical Supply Sergeant, you know, with the hat cocked back and the little, you know… Hollingsworth [laughs]. Sturm Cigar sticking out of their mouth[sic]. Um, and that’s not—that’s not the way it is. Um, and, especially these days, ‘cause, with computers, they have everything really, uh, locked down. Back then, uh, you could still do some wheeling and dealing, because things weren’t as, uh—as accountable as they are now. When I say “things,” I mean the supplies themselves. It wasn’t as easy to account for them then, but one of the things that—that, uh—that surprised me about that job is: eh, we took the, um—we took the, uh, combat role—not that we saw any combat—but we took that very seriously, because if you think about it, when the enemy attacks, what’s one of the first things they attack? It’s the supply line. So, go—you know, going into supplies sounds like, you know, I guess, wheel and deal… Hollingsworth [laughs]. Sturm And smoke cigars, but it’s actually a little more—a little more serious than that. So… Hollingsworth And, uh, what was it like going overseas? You mentioned Germany earlier. Sturm Yeah, yeah, and that was my—that was my first time overseas. Um, you know, again, I was 20 years old, at the time, uh, uh, but it was—it was a little overwhelming, and, uh, I remember, uh—I remember when I first got there, uh, I flew into Frankfurt[, Hesse, Germany], and I was stationed about two hours south of Frankfurt. So I think—I think there were about a half dozen of us or so that were in the van. Um, and as we made our way down there, they’d drop off one by one, and, of course, I was the last one. But, um, when—when he dropped me off—I’ll—I’ll never forget—When he dropped me off at my duty post, it was just a small air base. So you could walk from the front gate to the back gate in about five minutes, and, um, when he dropped me off, it was an overcast day, cold, and I had no idea where to go, and he spoke no English whatsoever [laughs]. So all he could do was point to this building, and, uh, so I walked in the building and just kind of found my way from there, but, um, uh, that was my initial, uh—initial experience going overseas. Uh, going overseas, uh, in some ways, really formed, uh, a lot of the values that I have today. So I don’t know how in depth, uh, you meant that question to be. Hollingsworth No, that’s okay. Sturm Yeah. Hollingsworth Tell me more about it. Sturm Yeah, um… Hollingsworth How it impacts you today. Sturm Well, you know, it was a completely different culture, you know? And I—I had, uh—I had never experienced anything like that before. Um, I remember when we were, uh, in process. Because when—when you get in country, uh, for, um—I think we went through two weeks of, um, kind of an indoctrination on the German culture, you know? And again, at that time, it was East [Germany] and West Germany. So we were in, we were—we were in West Germany. Um, [laughs] they—they would actually hire a local. Uh, it was a German, uh—a Germany lady that came in, and she was just, you know, teaching us basic German phrases and things like that. Um, the very first thing she taught us was “Ein bier, bitte.” So “one beer, please,” of course, but one—one of the first things that really jumped out at me about being overseas was, uh, one of the military personnel’s telling us, uh, um, basically, to, uh, uh, be good boys while we were over there, because at—I don’t know if it’s still this way—but, at the time, there was no such thing as police brutality. Hollingsworth Oh. Sturm So, uh, you know—so the polizei tell you to do something, you do it, ‘cause there is no police brutality over there [laughs]. Hollingsworth So, um, could you tell me more about what you did in Germany? Sturm Uh, well, that’s when I was with the 210th Field Artillery Brigade. Um, I was working in the, uh—working in the, uh, supply area over there. So, um, We were stationed—I was stationed at a little place called Herzo Base, which is near Herz—Herzogenaurach[, Bavaria], Germany, which is near Nuremberg, which is where they had the war trials, uh—The German war trials. <a title="">[2]</a> Um, uh, and the air base that I was at was actually an old Luftwaffe, uh, base, and it was right on the hilltop, uh, and where we were stationed, uh, as it was told to me—it’s a pretty interesting story, because, you know, obviously, there’s a[sic] air field out there, but apparently, during World War II, it was a secret air base. So what they would do is: they would, uh—when they weren’t, uh, using it, they would flood the field. So from the air, it would just look like a lake, and then when they—when they wanted to, uh—when they wanted to, uh, use it, then they would drain it, of course, and take off, and land, and do whatever it is that they needed to do. Uh, but the one thing that was kind of, uh, eerie over there was that, um: we had, uh, lots of underground passages, and they were all padlocked shut, and, uh, the rumor was—I don’t—I don’t know if it was true or not—but the, uh—the rumor was that there was, um—actually, in some of them, uh, supposedly, there were some old World War II planes down there, but, uh, they were concerned that some things had been booby-trapped, so apparently, the—all of that was flooded. Hollingsworth Hm. Sturm And, uh, of course, we, uh—we never went down there, but, um—but, like I say, I was there—I was there for 18 months, Uh, um, in the uh Headquarters. It’s called “Headquarters [and] Headquarters Battery.” Hollingsworth Um, I read in your biographical data sheet that you would go on alert and get ready for battle. What was that like? Sturm Yeah, yeah, and that was something, uh—yeah. At that time, um, one-fifth of the entire Army was stationed in Germany. Um, and alerts were something that we did take seriously over there, and, um, uh, when we, uh—when we went on alert, then, within about two hours, uh, we had to be ready to go. So we were—where I was stationed, I believe it was—I believe we were only about like two hours from the Czech [Republic] border, um, but yeah. When we went on alert, we would have to be, uh, ready to go, and being in supply, we were in charge of all the, uh—all of the, uh, weapons. So we had to first issue everybody their weapons, and then all of the ammunition and everything. We had to pack up in the trucks, um, and be ready to go, and we went on alert probably about once a month or so. Sometimes, we would actually pull out and go somewhere, and sometimes it would just be a drill. We’d load up the trucks and then unload them, but yeah. That was something we took seriously over there. Hollingsworth Um, what do you remember most about your service in Germany? Sturm Um, [sniffs], uh, a couple of things. One, uh—speaking of alerts, one was: we, uh—we had an incident—I believe it was with Libya—where we shot down a couple of, uh, Libyan jets. Um, and when that happened, everybody across the—across the globe went on—went on alert. So I remember that, and also, about a month before I left, there was a terrorist attack at the Frankfurt Airport. Hollingsworth Hm. Sturm And, uh, they bombed the, uh—they bombed the Frankfurt Airport. Um, so, uh, uh, that and like, say, the alerts, and, uh, some concerts that I saw over there. I —n fact, I saw the very last concert of Van Halen with, uh, David Lee Roth. Hollingsworth Oh [inaudible]. Sturm That was their 1984—their 1984 tour [laughs]. Hollingsworth Yeah[?]. Wow[?], that’s very lucky. Sturm Yep, I saw them [coughs]. Hollingsworth How did you keep in contact with people back at home, while you were in Germany? Sturm Yeah, that’s not like it is today. Hollingsworth Mmhmm. Sturm I mean, that was, um—it was either mail or phone calls. Um, the mail would take probably a week, and I had a girlfriend back here, at the time, um, and, uh, uh, mail would take about a week, and phone calls were hard, because the only option really, um, was the payphone. So you had to really [inaudible]. I had to write, you know, and say “Hey. Next Sunday I’ll call you at three o’clock.” [laughs], and, uh, that’s pretty much, uh,—that’s pretty much, uh, how the communication went, so it was, uh—it was, uh, difficult. I did, uh—when I was in Germany, I did, uh, come home for a month on leave from over there, and that was actually part of the reason why. Hollingsworth Hm. Sturm But—yeah. Hollingsworth Um, could you tell me about a typical day in Germany for you? Sturm Um, yeah, we’d get up, and, uh, you know—by the way, you were asking me about one of the, uh—one of my memories from Germany. Um, I was a Florida boy, so that was the first time I’d seen snow. Hollingsworth Mmhmm. Sturm And, um, what I—I—I remember two things about that. One was, um, uh, much to my surprise, it’s actually warmer when it snows… Hollingsworth Mmhmm. Sturm Than when it doesn’t snow, and that was very surprising to me, ‘cause the coldest days over there was when it didn’t snow at all, but, um, another time, uh—another time, uh, uh, I was walking from—from supply—from where I worked over to the mess hall for lunch, which was only about, uh—I don’t know—about maybe 400 feet or—well, it was probably longer—probably about 200 yards. You know, it wasn’t that far away, but it was cold that day and I had on—I had on everything I owned Hollingsworth [laughs]. Sturm And by the time I got there, I was ready to get inside, but, um, uh, those were—those were two things, uh, that I remember from over there, but, typical day: we’d get up, um, we would have, um, uh, uh—we’d have PT—physical training—at six o’clock. So that’d be our—be our morning formation, uh, make sure everybody was there. Uh, we’d do our—we’d do our exercises, Go for a run, so forth and so on. Uh, and then come back, uh, go get something to eat, and then our next formation was at 8:30 or 8:45. Um, so we’d get our, you know, briefing for the day. Whatever it is that we were going to do, um, and then we’d go to work, uh, um, which, usually, at least one day a week for us involved going on a supply run down to Nuremberg. So I learned how to—how to drive a truck, how to back up a truck with just two side mirrors and towing a trailer. Hollingsworth [laughs]. Sturm In a deuce and a half truck. Um, so, you know, we’d—we’d work all day, and then, uh, we’d have our, um, uh, evening formation. We’d have it about 5:45, and then they would lower the flag at five, and, uh, that was a—that was a typical day. Hollingsworth The whole[?] day? Sturm Mmhmm. Hollingsworth Um, could you tell me how—how you became a Sergeant? Sturm Uh, well, I had some college when I went in, in the first place. Like I said, I was only in for three years, so when I enlisted, I was already a, uh, PFC [Private First Class]. So I—I went in as an E[nlisted Rank]-3. Hollingsworth Okay. Sturm Um, when I—after—After basic and AIT, when I was sent, uh, uh, to Germany, uh, as soon as I got there, the Sergeant, uh, immediately put me in for promotion to E4, uh—Spec[ialist] 4. So I was, uh—I don’t recall how long it took for that to go through. Probably a month or two. So I had a head start, because I had had some college. Hollingsworth Oh. Sturm So they, uh—um, when I was back here at Fort Stewart, uh, for my last year, uh, they promoted me to Sergeant about six months before I got out. Hollingsworth [inaudible]. Sturm I think part of that—yeah. I think part of that plan was to try to get me to, uh, reenlist. Hollingsworth [inaudible] [laughs]. Sturm Which—yeah. It didn’t work. Hollingsworth They do that. Sturm [laughs]. Hollingsworth Um, what did you do as a Sergeant? Sturm Um, well, then, Uh, I—as a, um—as a private and as a specialist, you pulled a lot you know—you pulled a lot. You pulled the guard duty stuff, you pulled the, you know—the KP [kitchen patrol], uh, that kind of stuff. When I became a Sergeant, um, then I was on the other side of that. so I was, you know, instead of—instead of being on the guard duty, I’d, you know—once a month or so, I’d be the NCO [non-commissioned officer] in charge at the barracks, ‘cause—‘cause, at night, at five o’clock, when everybody gets off, um, you had to have a, uh, Sergeant and a, uh—and a, uh, non-NCO that[sic] would be on duty for the whole night, you know, in case something happened. So, uh, then I became more in the management… Hollingsworth Oh. Sturm I guess you could say. Yeah. With, uh, zero leadership training, at the time [laughs]. Hollingsworth Did that change overtime? Did you develop some sort of leadership, after a while? Sturm Well, I—it was only six months. Like I said, I was promoted six months before I’d got out. So, um—yeah. You know, I learned a few things, But, uh, really the, eh—not ‘til later. Not ‘til after I got out and I reflected on, um,—I—I don’t want to say mistakes that I’ve made—just, um, inexperience, you know? And, uh, reflecting on them later is when they really paid dividends, but yeah. I really didn’t have enough time left in my enlistment to, uh… Hollingsworth Okay. Sturm Learn a lot of lessons. Although, they did—they did—they tried to, uh, get me to reenlist to go to Warrant Officer [Candidate] School. Hollingsworth Interesting[?]. Sturm Yeah. Hollingsworth And, um, you said no. Why? Sturm Uh, well, first of all, I had never, um—I, you know—I had never intended on making the military a career. Um, but also, you know, I was in a—in a, uh—in a really tough time, because I was in from 1983 to 1986. Um, and that was just, Uh, you know—that was just—what? Ten years after the end of the draft and eight years after the end of Vietnam [War], and I guess it would be three years after the failed, um, Iran hostage rescue.<a title="">[3]</a> So, you know, when I was in, you know, the, um, you know—the military was really beaten down. The, uh, bu—uh, a lot of the equipment we had was left over from Vietnam. Um, a lot of the good soldiers—particularly in the NCO ranks—a lot of the good soldiers, uh, had retired after Vietnam, and right in the, uh—at the end of the [19]70s, um, uh, you know, Cart—during the [James “Jimmy” Earl] Carter[, Jr.] administration, the—the—the defense budget had really been cut to almost nothing, you know? So the equipment wasn’t being updated, uh, you know, because of the budget cuts. The good soldiers were getting out. You know, they weren’t reenlisting. They weren’t able to attract good, uh, recruits, but then, you know, when [Ronald Wilson] Reagan came in in ‘80, he spent basically all of the ‘80s building all of this back up. Hollingsworth Mmhmm. Sturm Um, but I was in kind of at the beginning of that, and, you know, in retrospect, I—I, you know—again, at 20 years old, I didn’t really understand this, at the time, but, um, you know, in retrospect, uh, what he was doing was he was putting a lot of his, uh—a lot of the, uh, defense budget money—particularly in the early years—into modernizing the equipment. You know… Hollingsworth Mmhmm. Sturm The Stealth Bomber,<a title="">[4]</a> the [M1] Abrams Tank, that kind of stuff. Um, so it wasn’t really going into training yet. Hollingsworth Right. Sturm And that didn’t really kick in, until later in the ‘80s, and, uh, it paid dividends, as we saw in [Operation] Desert Storm, you know, in—in ‘91—I guess it was—Or 1990—‘91.<a title="">[5]</a> Whatever that was. Uh, it paid dividends then. Um, So I just—I—I didn’t, um—uh, I didn’t, you know—I wanted to go in. Um, I—I wanted to, uh, you know, experience the lifestyle. I, you know—I—I had—I had, uh, um, you know, admired what the—what the American soldier stood for, you know? And I wanted to go and experience that, but I never intended on making it a career, and when I got in there, um, you know, we weren’t—we weren’t really doing a whole heck of a lot of training, at that time. So I just wanted to get out and move on. Hollingsworth Yeah. Sturm So… Hollingsworth Uh, so what did you do when you came back to Orlando? Sturm Um, I went back to school. Hollingsworth Okay. Sturm Yeah, I had had some, uh—uh, I had, uh, um, almost two years of college before I went in. Uh, I came back. I finished, uh—finished up my AA [Associate of Arts], um, and then got the Bachelor’s, uh got the CPA, uh, and, you know, so forth and so on. Hollingsworth And, um, did you do any service in Orlando? Or was it straight from Germany back to—you were done, after Germany? Sturm No, no, after Germany—I spent, uh, 18 months in Germany. Hollingsworth Right. Sturm A year and a half in Germany, and then, I was sent to Fort Stewart, Georgia, for my last year. So I spent my last year… Hollingsworth Okay. Sturm In Fort Stewart, Georgia, um, which is where I was with the 24th Infantry Division. Hollingsworth Can you tell me more about… Sturm Yeah. Hollingsworth [inaudible]. Sturm That would be [laughs]—yeah. Um, yeah. If I’d have known how good I had it in Germany… Hollingsworth [laughs]. Sturm I would have stayed there [laughs], because, uh, the—one of—one of the things that I didn’t appreciate is that, over in Germany, um, you know, we all wanted to travel, You know, which—by the way, is[sic] some other memories I have of Germany—is doing something with traveling over there. Um, but, you know, we all wanted to travel, including the Officers, you know? Hollingsworth Mmhmm. Sturm So they wanted to get off on a Friday and, you know—and go travel, as well. Well, at Fort Stewart, Georgia, there’s not really a whole heck of a lot to see. So, uh, there wasn’t—wasn’t much to do, except sit on post and work [laughs], but, uh—but the thing about it: I was with the 24th Infantry—and this was actually, um, I believe, part of, uh, Reagan’s, uh modernization—is we were actually a rapid deployment force there. Hollingsworth Okay. Sturm So we were, uh—we were, um, uh, trained so that, within two hours’ notice, uh, we could go anywhere in the world, uh, and be there within 24 hours, and ready to go. Um, one of the things that we did, uh—eh, even though there wasn’t a lot of training going on, at that time—One of the things we did do, um, was, every year, the unit would go out into the, uh, [Fort Irwin & the] National Training Center, out in the, uh, Mojave Desert and, uh, do desert training, which, uh, came into play in, uh, Oper—in, uh, Desert Storm. Hollingsworth Okay. Sturm Because, uh, when that kicked off, of course, in the deserts of, uh, Iraq and Kuwait, uh, the 24th Infantry Division—my old unit—was, uh—played a—played a pretty key role in that, uh—in that, uh, campaign. Uh, be—Again, because we had—we—we—we’d get a desert, every year. In fact, uh, when—the year I was in with them, we went to the Mojave, but the year before that, uh, they actually went to the Sahara Desert and trained for a month over there. Hollingsworth Were you happy you didn’t have to go anywhere near there? Sturm Yes. Hollingsworth [laughs]. Sturm Yeah. I felt bad, uh… Hollingsworth [inaudible]. Sturm When—when we were in the—when we were in the Mojave, we were there from mid-July to mid-August. Hollingsworth Mmhmm. Sturm And, uh, unlike being cold in Germany, it was hot. Hollingsworth Oh[?]. Sturm Out there, and, uh, I really felt and I have a lot of respect for the soldiers, uh, in the, uh—in Desert Storm. Because, uh, they were, you know—that kicked off in January[, 17, 1991], and I—I can’t help but think that there was—the time of that was the cooler weather, but I remember seeing on TV. I remember seeing, uh, video of them training in the summer, and ‘cause one of the things they were worried about was the, uh—was gas attacks. Hollingsworth Mmhmm. Sturm And I remember seeing them in the summer, running around in the middle of the desert in full chemical suits, and I don’t know that I could have done that in my best day. I have a lot of respect for those guys, because we used wear those chemical suits. They have, uh, charcoal in them, and, um, uh, we used to wear those thing to stay warm in snow, and they were running around in those things in the summer, over in, uh—over in Kuwait, getting ready for that, and, uh—I don’t—I don’t—I do not know how they did it. So yes. I’m glad I—I’m glad I was not part of that [laughs]. Hollingsworth [laughs] And, um, Between Germany and your service in Georgia and South Carolina, what was your, uh, most—most—most memorable about your time in the service? [sniffs]. Sturm Oh, my gosh. Um, I think the comradery, as—as cliché as that may sound. Hollingsworth No. Sturm It’s actually very true, because, uh, you know, especially in your training—and particularly, in basic and AIT—you know, there’s kind of an us-against-them, you know, mentality, because, you know, they’re, you know—part of basic training, uh, you know, as they tell you—which is true—is, you know, they gotta break you down to build you up, you know? Hollingsworth Mmhmm. Sturm So, um, you know—so we were, you know—we were really banding together to survive, uh—to survive that, and then, you know, even in the units, uh, you know, you build up a comradery with, uh—with, you know, your friends, and they’re the people you work with, Um, and, uh, you know, which carries over into going out at night, you know? Hollingsworth Mmhmm. Sturm You know, uh, Going out, you know, and, uh, doing your thing, but when you’re, you know—when you’re going out with, uh, you know, 12 brothers, you know, and you would trust any of them with your life, um, that’s—that’s, uh—That’s a rare connection, and that’s what—that’s what I miss the most and that’s—that—and that’s what I remember. That’s what I remember the most. Hollingsworth Mmhmm. You remember the people. Sturm Yeah, yeah. Like I say, uh—like I say, the, uh—comradery. Hollingsworth Ah [laughs]. Sturm Yeah. Hollingsworth Um, what did you do during your free time? Sturm Um, well… Hollingsworth Travel? Sturm Did some—no. I did some growing up. Hollingsworth Ah. Sturm I did some growing up. I, um—‘cause I was, uh—when I went in, you know, I was in my party phase. Hollingsworth Mmhmm. Sturm And, uh, you know, especially, when I hit[?] to Germany. Uh, Oktoberfest [laughs], uh “Ein bier, bitte?” Uh… Hollingsworth [laughs]. Sturm You know, that whole thing. Um, my first—my first six months in Germany, when I wasn’t, uh—when I wasn’t working, I was, uh, trying to sample every beer that, uh, Germany ever made. Hollingsworth [laughs]. Sturm Um, and after about six months, you know, I—I woke up, uh—I woke up one day, and realized that I had been there six months, and I had nothing to show for it, you know? And about that same time—I’d, uh—I’d—I had been a musician my whole life—and about that time, I kinda was, uh, re—uh, uh, re-interested in music, and, um, I actually, uh, started, uh—started playing music again. So I started—I kinda[?]—I really, you know—I quit the partying, um, and I would spend a lot of time playing music. In fact, uh, the first band I ever played in my life was over there Hollingsworth Okay. Sturm Was over there,in German, Which would be—qualify as another memory from over there [laughs]. Um, uh, But I—but that’s what I did. I kinda, you know, like I said, grew up a little bit, uh, got over the partying thing, and started, uh, laying the groundwork for the future. Hollingsworth There you go, and, um, when you came back—right when your service ended—what was it like? Sturm Uh, it was a tremendous sense of freedom. Hollingsworth [laughs]. I bet. Sturm Uh, well, you know, when you’re a soldier, uh, the government owns you 24-7, 365, and, um, uh, you know, when, you know, we—Up in Fort Stewart—and Germany, for that matter, but, uh—you know, in Fort Stewart, uh, you know, we’d go to the field a month at a time, so you—I mean, you’re there for a month, you know? Um, and it—It was the freedom getting out, and, uh, you know, I was—I was used to, you know—for three years, I had—I had woken up every morning at 5:30 or so, and exercised at six, and, uh, I, you know—I was determined to continue doing that, which lasted about two weeks [laughs]. Hollingsworth [laughs]. Sturm But, uh, big, big, big sense of freedom Hollingsworth Ah. Sturm Yep. Hollingsworth And [inaudible]. Sturm And pride. Hollingsworth [inaudible]. Sturm Oh, yeah. I was proud of what I did, um, Even though, you know, at that time, uh, you know—at that time, we really weren’t heralded, uh, as heroes, like the soldiers are now, and rightfully so, ‘cause like, you know—like I say, it was, you know—it was only about 10 years after Vietnam Hollingsworth Mmhmm. Sturm And everybody was kind of over the military. They—they were—they were tired of hearing about it, and they really, you know—They just really didn’t want to have anything to do with it. Yep. Hollingsworth Oh. When you left the military, did you—I know you went back and did your education—but did you work at all, while you were doing that? Or did you just go straight into school? Sturm Uh, no, ‘cause I got out, uh—I got out in November, so I got out November 8th[, 1989], um, and I enrolled for the, uh—for the spring semester the following January [1990]. Hollingsworth Okay. Sturm Um, so yeah. I did, you know—I did work, but my main focus was on school. Hollingsworth School? Sturm Yeah, and that was—that was part of the growing up—‘cause that’s part of the growing up in the military, but also, when I was in, I—I had the, um—I had the, uh, v[eterans’] benefits, which was the—the successor to the G.I. Bill.<a title="">[6]</a> So I actually, um—I actually earned college money… Hollingsworth Oh. Sturm That, uh—while I was in there—while I was there. Yeah. When—when I was in Germany, I tried to take a college class over there. That didn’t work out too well. Hollingsworth Right[?]. Sturm But—no. So when—when I got out, I was—I was, uh—I was pretty head strong on going back to finishing school. Hollingsworth That’s good. Sturm Yeah. Hollingsworth Um, did you keep in touch with any of the people you served with? Sturm I did not, until, um, uh, really, just a couple years ago, and it was, uh, primarily, uh, thanks to Facebook, but, um, I’ve, uh—I’ve actually only, uh—well, I take that back, because there was one guy down in Tampa. Uh, uh, my roommates in, uh—in, uh, Fort Stewart—one of them lived in Tampa, the other was from Virginia, and I did—right after I got out, I kept—kept in touch with them a little bit, but, um, I actually really didn’t keep in touch with anybody, until, uh, one of my best friends from Germany, um—we had a, uh—we had a reunion, uh—uh, I guess it was—eight—nine months ago. Him[sic] and his family were coming through town here to go on a cruise, and, uh, that was the first time I had seen him in, uh—in 20 years, and, uh—and, uh, we had a—we had a good chat about the—about those times, and It was interesting to me, becau—because, it was, you know—I had my perspective, but it was interesting to me to get someone else’s perspective on the same experiences, uh, from—from 20 years prior. So—yeah, and I did—now that I think about it, I did, um—oh gosh. This was probably a good 10 years—No. it’s more than that. Probably a good 15 years ago, uh, My Sergeant from—from, uh—from Germany, uh,—I did go and see him. He was—he lived up in Atlanta[, Georgia], and I did go and see him one weekend, and, uh, it was—it was kinda—it was interesting, you know, because, when you’re, you know—when he’s your Sergeant, you have one relationship, But when you’re both civilians, you know, 20 years later, uh, you can talk a little more freely, I guess you could say, and he was a good guy. That was another, um—you’d asked me earlier about, uh, influences and memories and stuff, and he was—he was, uh—he was a big influence on me. Sergeant Jones—he was, uh—he was a big influence—Sergeant Wilson Jones. Uh, He was a, uh, big influence on me. He was one of the best bosses that[sic] I ever had in my life, and, uh, I learned a lot about, um—I learned a lot about initiative and perseverance, uh, from working under him. He was—he was a good guy, and he’s still alive, to my knowledge. Hollingsworth [laughs]. Sturm To my knowledge, he is. Hollingsworth And, uh, so maturing, growing up, and, uh, Sergeant Jones. Was there anything else, with your time in the military, uh, service—or, military service, that influenced your life since leaving? Sturm Oh, gosh. Yeah, you know, uh, you know the—I learned the military changes ya, and, you know, whether it changes you for the good or the bad, I think it kind of depends on the individual, and the experiences that you have in there. Um, you know, Like I say, uh, I was fortunate enough, where we didn’t have any conflicts, um, going on, at the time. So, uh, you know, while—while I was standing on the wall, wolf—the wolf never came, and I’m happy about that. But—no. The—the military changes you, and, you know, you—my maturation process, in that, you know, I learned a lot about, uh, you know, initiative, a lot about perseverance… Hollingsworth Mmhmm. Sturm Um, self-esteem. In fact, you know, uh, Sergeant Jones—I reminded him of this story: when I—when I saw him, uh—it’s probably been a good 15 years ago, but, um, uh, you know, one time—and again, you know, 20 year old kid, you know? I don’t remember what exactly the details were, but he had sent me back to the supply room to find something. You know, so I went back there, and I looked around, and I didn’t found[sic]—find it. So I came back, and told him—I said “Hey, Sergeant,” You know, “I couldn’t find it.” and he said “Well, then you didn’t look.” And I said, you know— I was like, “What are you talking about? I just—I just got back from there. I couldn’t find it.” He said “No, if you had looked, you would have found it. Now go back there and find it.” And He was right. You know, it was back there, I just didn’t look hard enough. Hollingsworth Mmhmm. Sturm And that, you know—that’s one of the—I, you know—I could sit here the rest of the day, telling stories like that, but, um, you know, that’s something that’s carried with me through—really, through today. Um, you know, when I was working, I remember a, uh—a colleague of mine, when I was earning my PhD—um, I was, uh, uh, uh, you know—PhD is a stressful, stressful thing to go through, and I was—something was going on, and I was wound up about it, and I remember him saying, you know, “Hey,” you know, “Don’t worry about it, ‘cause you’re a warrior,” You know? You’re—Even though this is going on now, you’ll still be okay, because—and That’s directly rooted back into—into my military experience, in that, you know—in that perse—that perseverance. Hollingsworth Mmhmm. Sturm Um, so—yeah. All sorts of, you know—all sorts of, uh, uh, values, um, you know, that I—that I learned, and, you know, some of them were good. Um, uh, some of them were good. You know, I saw some, uh—uh, some experiences—not—I saw some things that I—that set a bad example for me, uh, which served me well, because I didn’t want anything to do with that. You know, so—yeah. Lots of—lots of things. Hollingsworth So what advice would you give today’s military members? Sturm Um, phew. That’s a tough one, uh, you know, because we’ve got some conflicts going on in the world right now. Hollingsworth Mmhmm. Sturm Also, when you enlist right now, uh, it’s quite possible you might end up in a combat situation. Hollingsworth Mmhmm. Sturm Uh, so I would, you know—I—I would measure my words carefully, but, uh, you know, barring the combat part of it, um, you know, I would say—I would say to enjoy the time, and, uh—especially if you get sent overseas. Um, uh, uh, do some traveling. That was one regret that I have about my time in Germany is that I didn’t do a lot of traveling. We did some, uh, traveling. You know, Spain and France. Hollingsworth Mmhmm. Sturm We—we did some traveling, but, um, uh, I would like to have done a lot more traveling, in retrospect. Um, uh, and serve with honor. You know, that was One of the things that, uh—that attracted me to the military in the first place, uh—was, you know, uh, I saw examples of soldiers, and, they’re, you know—they’re people that[sic] are, um, uh, you know—that[sic] are serving something greater than themselves. You know, they’re making a sacrifice that’s not, uh, you know—they’re not just in there for self-serving reasons. They’re serving, you know, the freedom of the country, um, and, you know, again, that comradery. They’re just, you know—in short, they’re just something greater than—than themselves, and, you know, my advice would be, uh, to enjoy that, because, uh, it may end, when you get out of the, uh—when you get out of the military. Hollingsworth Alright. So, uh, what do you do in your free time now? Sturm Uh, surf [laughs]. Hollingsworth You still surf? Sturm Yeah, yeah, I surf. I, you know, spend as much time with my daughter as I can. Hollingsworth Okay. Sturm Um, You know, still, uh—still working out. Uh, I have all sorts of hobbies. I like to cook. Uh, I fly radio-controlled airplanes. In fact, one of my recent hobbies—as of about two years ago, um—is, uh—is shooting. Uh, when I—When I went into the military, you know, I was a city boy. Hollingsworth Mmhmm. Sturm So I never grew up around guns or anything. Uh, And when I went in the military, uh, obviously, we shot. Uh, you know, I—I had, uh, a lot—we—we—I had some fun experiences on the range, shooting some, uh—some of the automatic weapons, and, uh, there was—there was a lot of those fun experiences in there, but I never really thought much about it, you know? It was just something we did. Hollingsworth Right. Sturm And when we went to the range, I always enjoyed it Hollingsworth Mmhmm. Sturm Uh,but I never really—never really thought much about it. So, when I got out, um, you know, I never owned a gun. I was never around a gun. I just never thought about it. About probably three years ago now, a friend of mine, um, who was into guns, you know, said “Hey. You wanna come out to the range with me one day?” And I said, “Alright. Yeah. I haven’t shot, you know, in 25 years”—or however long it’s been. So I went out with him, and, uh, you know, what I was trained on was the M16 [rifle]. Hollingsworth Mmhmm. Sturm And the civilian version of that is AR-15. Hollingsworth Mmhmm. Sturm So he had an AR-15. Um, you know, when I went out—when I took basic training, it was cold—we went out on a cold day, and, uh, I went out there, and, uh, you know, he gave his AR-15, and I did all that I knew to do, which was, you know, the way that I was trained in the military. So, you know, I got down into my prone position on the ground, and, you know, I put about six rounds in about, you know—about an inch in the target, and was thinking, Man, maybe I missed my calling in life here. Hollingsworth Yeah. Sturm ‘Cause I hadn’t shot, you know—I hadn’t even picked up a weapon in 25 years, but being out there in the cold, um, you know, and the smell of the gun powder when you shoot it, and then—and then, remembering how to shoot, uh, you know, was muscle memory, um, and it all came back to me, and that was a, uh—that was a pleasant memory, because I—I remembered, uh, you know, those—those were always good times in the military, going out in the range, and that’s actually become, uh, one of my hobbies. Hollingsworth Oh. Sturm So, you know, I own—I own several guns now. We go out—we go out shooting, about every Saturday morning, uh, on the range. Um, and that’s, uh—that’s a—that’s kinda reminiscing Hollingsworth Yeah. Sturm Over the, uh, uh—from the, uh—from the military days, but… Hollingsworth Do you ever take your daughter with you? Sturm Uh, I took her once. She’s, uh—she’s not real, uh, uh, interested in guns, But I did, uh—I did take her out there once, just to show her that there was nothing to be scared of. Um, so, you know, she’s not—she’s not scared of them, but she respects them and stays away from them [laughs]. Hollingsworth [inaudible]. Sturm Yeah. Hollingsworth Um, is there anything else you would like to talk about? Sturm Uh, oh, my gosh. Um, [sighs] probably—I mean, uh, you know—I’m—I’m—I’m glad I went in. I mean, it—Like I say, it really shaped a lot of the values that I have, uh, these days. Uh, And, you know, it—sometimes—sometimes that’s not always good, because, uh, you know, when I’m, uh—when I’m in, uh—when I’m in, uh, a task mode, then I kind of have a flashback, you know, to the—to the military days, Like with, you know—like with Sergeant Jones. Like, hey, if you got something to do, get it done. Hollingsworth Mmhmm. Sturm You know, I don’t want to hear any excuses. Get it done, but, um, no. I was—I was glad I went in. I did, uh—I did a lot of growing up, when I was in there, and, you know, uh, like I said, before I went in, I was not a student. Uh, when I came out, I was a student, and, uh, my—my GPA [grade point average], uh—I don’t know remember exactly what it was—but I got very few grades less than a[sic]—less than an A, uh, when I came out. So, uh—so no. It was a—it was a good experience. Um, I’m glad I did it. Uh, you know, I respect the, uh—the guys that are going in now, and women—the people that are going in, uh, now, because you gotta—now, um, you know—I—I haven’t looked at the enlistment standards. I’ve never compared them across time, but I, you know—I think you’ve got to be smarter to go in now, because they have all this high-tech equipment… Hollingsworth Mmhmm. Sturm Um, and they’re doing things now that we didn’t do, uh—that we didn’t do back then. So I really—I really have a lot of respect for the people going in these days. In addition to the fact that, when you go in now, you may wind [yawns] —you may wind up in a combat zone very easily, in the middle of the desert somewhere. Well, um—so yeah. I could, uh—I could, uh—I could probably sit here all afternoon… Hollingsworth [laughs]. Sturm If you gave me the opportunity, but I don’t think you have enough tape to do that [laughs]. Hollingsworth Hm, alright. Well, thank you very much, Dr. Sturm… Sturm You’re welcome. Hollingsworth For your time. It was an honor to be able to interview you Sturm My pleasure. Hollingsworth And I very much appreciate you for your time and service. Sturm I… Hollingsworth Veterans’ Day just passed. So we’ll be in touch again, and we’ll have a copy of your interview for you. Sturm Okay. [inaudible]. Hollingsworth And I’ll bring it to you on the [UCF] Lake Mary campus… Sturm Very good. Hollingsworth Because I want to see it. Sturm Oh, okay. Very good. Hollingsworth That’s it. Sturm Very good. Unidentified 42 minutes. Sturm Yeah. There are probably more things I could have thought up. I didn’t know how much tape I… <div> <div> <a title="">[1]</a> Officially Operation Urgent Fury. </div> <div> <a title="">[2]</a> Correction: Nuremberg Trials. </div> <div> <a title="">[3]</a> Officially Operation Eagle Claw, or Operation Evening Light, or Operation Rice Bowl. </div> <div> <a title="">[4]</a> Officially the Northrop B-2 Spirit. </div> <div> <a title="">[5]</a> January 17, 1991 – February 28, 1991. </div> <div> <a title="">[6]</a> Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944. </div> </div> 210th Field Artillery Brigade 34th Infantry Division accountants Advanced Individual Training advanced training AIT alcohol alcoholic beverages alerts AR-15 Army Special Forces basic training beers budget cuts cold war colleges Columbia, South Carolina Community Veterans History Project comradery CVHP David Lee Roth defense defense budgets Desert Storm desert training E-3 E-4 education Enlisted Rank 3 Enlisted Rank 4 enlistment Federal Republic of Germany firearms First Gulf War First Iraq War Fort Irwin & the National Training Center Fort Jackson Fort Stewart Frankfurt Airport Frankfurt, Germany FRG Georgia German Air Force Germans Germany Gulf War Gulf War I guns Headquarters and Headquarters Battery Herzo Base Herzogenaurach, Germany HHB higher education Iraq Iraq War James Earl Carter, Jr. Jimmy Carter Katie Hollingsworth Kuwait Kuwait War law enforcement Luftwaffe M16 rifles military training Mojave Desert music musicians National Training Center NCO non-commissioned officers Nuremberg Trials Nuremberg, Germany Operation Desert Storm orlando Persian Gulf War PFC police police brutality polizei Private First Class range shooting rapid deployment forces Ray Sturm Republic of Iraq Ronald Reagan Ronald Wilson Reagan sergeants shooting shooting ranges soldiers Special Forces Specialist 4 State of Kuwait supply terrorism terrorists Thirty-Fourth Infantry Division training Two Hundred and Tenth Field Artillery Brigade U.S. Army U.S. Army Special Forces UCF University of Central Florida Van Halen veterans veterans' benefits Warrior Thunder weapons weather West Germany Wilson Jones Winter Park World War II WWII https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka/files/original/e4b7f6422abac4d4b5353edbed6399c7.pdf 26c6287bc13290321f910fbed6b0c442 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title UCF Community Veterans History Project Collection Description As part of RICHES of Central Florida, UCF intends to record, archive, and make accessible oral history interviews of Central Florida veterans. Diversity is a main focus for this project since there are many different subgroups under the group veterans, all with important stories. While the histories will be largely archived and made available through the UCF library, a portion will be contributed to the ongoing Veterans History Project based out of the Library of Congress. Contributor <a href="http://library.ucf.edu/about/departments/special-collections-university-archives/" target="_blank">Special Collections and University Archives</a>, University of Central Florida Libraries, University of Central Florida Alternative Title CVHP Collection Subject Veterans--Florida United States. Army Army United States. Navy Navy United States. Air Force Air Force United States. Marine Corps Marine Corps Is Part Of <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>. Language eng Type Collection Coverage Jacksonville, Florida Orlando, Florida Honolulu, Hawaii Pearl Harbor, Hawaii Great Lakes, Illinois Long Island, New York Newport, Rhode Island Norfolk, Virginia Germany Qaasuitsup, Greenland Keflavik, Southern Peninsula, Iceland Azores Islands, Portugal Mediterranean Sea Contributing Project <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a> Curator Cepero, Laura Digital Collection <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a> Source Repository <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida External Reference "<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">About the Project</a>." UCF Community Veterans History Project, RICHES of Central Florida, University of Central Florida. http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/. Has Part <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/109" target="_blank">Lone Sailor Navy Memorial History Project Collection</a>, UCF Community Veterans History Project, RICHES of Central Florida. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title Oral History of Curt Sawyer Alternative Title Oral History, Sawyer Subject Veterans--Florida Army Description An oral history interview of Curt Sawyer (b. 1954), who served in the U.S. Army from 1986 to 1994. Sawyer was born in San Francisco, California, on May 1, 1965, but grew up in Tennessee. While living in Fort Myers, Florida, in 1986, Sawyer joined the Army. During his service, he participated in training exercises with the French Foreign Legion in Corsica and served at Guard Post Ouellette in the Demilitarized Zone (DMZ) between North Korea and South Korea. Sawyer achieved the rank of First Lieutenant and received the Expert Infantryman Badge. He was also a graduate of the Army Ranger School, Army Airborne School, Army Air Assault School, and Army Rappelling School. This interview was conducted by Robin Dunn at the University of Central Florida (UCF) on November 13, 2014. Interview topics include attending the United States Military Academy at West Point, Airborne School and Air Assault School, serving in South Korea, the 1st Ranger Regiment, meeting his wife, his post-Army life, and training with the French Foreign Legion. Table Of Contents 0:00:00 Introduction 0:00:40 Background 0:01:28 Enlistment 0:03:33 United States Military Academy at West Point 0:05:53 Army assignments 0:07:22 South Korea 0:10:52 Airborne School and Air Assault School 0:12:38 Rest and recuperation in South Korea 0:14:35 Savannah, Georgia 0:18:35 1st Ranger Regiment 0:20:33 Breakout of the Persian Gulf War 0:22:15 Wife 0:28:07 Post-military life 0:30:04 Training with the French Foreign Legion 0:34:44 Staying in touch with friends from the military 0:36:03 Impact of Army on life 0:37:38 Closing remarks Abstract Oral history interview of Curt Sawyer. Interview conducted by Robin Dunn at the University of Central Florida in Orlando, Florida on November 13, 2014. Type Moving Image Source <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/464/rec/1" target="_blank">Sawyer, Curt</a>. Interviewed by Robin Dunn, November 13, 2014. Audio/video record available. Item DP0016000, UCF Community Veterans History Project, Special Collections and University Archives, University of Central Florida Libraries, Orlando, Florida. Requires <a href="http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/" target="_blank">Adobe Flash Player</a> <a href="http://java.com/en/download/index.jsp" target="_blank">Java</a> <a href="https://get.adobe.com/reader/" target="_blank">Adobe Acrobat Reader</a> Is Part Of <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, Orlando, Florida. <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/24" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project Collection</a>, RICHES of Central Florida. Has Format 20-page digital transcript of original 39-minute and 53-second oral history: <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/464/rec/1" target="_blank">Sawyer, Curt</a>. Interviewed by Robin Dunn, November 13, 2014. Audio/video record available. Item DP0016000, UCF Community Veterans History Project, Special Collections and University Archives, University of Central Florida Libraries, Orlando, Florida. Conforms To Standards established by the <a href="http://www.loc.gov/vets/" target="_blank">Veterans History Projects</a>, Library of Congress. Coverage United States Military Academy at West Point, West Point, New York Fort Benning, Georgia Guard Post Ouellete, Demilitarized Zone, South Korea Itaewon, Yongsan-gu, Seoul, South Korea Eglin Air Force Base, Okaloosa County, Florida Savannah, Georgia Corsica, France Creator Sawyer, Curt Dunn, Robin Publisher <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a> Date Created 2014-11-13 Date Issued 2015-01 Date Copyrighted 2014-11-13 Format application/website application/pdf Extent 342 MB 218 KB Medium 39-minute and 53-second Digital (DAT) audio/video recording 20-page digital transcript Language eng Mediator History Teacher Civics/Government Teacher Geography Teacher Provenance Originally created by Robin Dunn and Curt Sawyer. Rights Holder <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a> Accrual Method Item Creation Contributing Project <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a> Curator Cepero, Laura Digital Collection <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a> External Reference Kim, Kwi-Gon. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/857709227" target="_blank">The Demilitarized Zone (DMZ) of Korea: Protection, Conservation and Restoration of a Unique Ecosystem</a>. 2013. Si-woo, Lee, and Myung-Hee Kim. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/754765257" target="_blank">Life on the edge of the DMZ</a>. Folkestone: Global Oriental, 2007. Click to View (Movie, Podcast, or Website) <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/464/rec/1" target="_blank">Sawyer, Curt</a> Transcript Dunn Today is November 13th, 2014. I am interviewing Mr. Curtis Sawyer, Associate Vice President of Administrative Affairs at the University of Central Florida, who served in the United States Army for eight years, achieving 1st Lieutenant as his highest rank. My name is Robin Dunn. We are interviewing Mr. Sawyer as a part of the UCF [University of Central Florida] Community Veterans History Project. We are recording this interview in Orlando, Florida. Good morning, Mr. Sawyer. How are you? Sawyer Good morning, Robin. Dunn [laughs]. Sawyer I’m doing fine. Thank you. Dunn Alright. We’re going to start with some easy questions. Um, when were you born? Sawyer [May 1st,] 1965. Dunn Okay, and where were you born? Sawyer San Francisco, California. Dunn [laughs] And what did your parents do for a living? Sawyer Hm, my father originally was a college English professor, and then he switched careers about midcareer and went into real estate, and that’s what—so those were his two primary careers. My mother was homemaker. Dunn And did you have any siblings? Sawyer I have one older sister. Dunn Mmhmm. Sawyer She’s three years older. Her name is Dojuan [Sawyer]. Dunn Dojuan? Sawyer Yes. Dunn And, um, what is—did she have any military history, as well? Did she enlist in… Sawyer No, her husband did. He was enlisted man in the 82nd Airborne [Division] and he used to jump out of airplanes for a living. So he and I had quite, uh—a little bit of a common background. Dunn And when did you enlist in the service? Sawyer Hm, I went in in [June 30,] 1986. Dunn And what made you enlist into the Army? Sawyer Well, um, I actually went in as an officer, and so, um, it really wasn’t something that I had thought about, when I was a kid growing up in the country in Tennessee. Um, I always really liked playing war games, and, um—so my little toy soldiers, and, um, tanks, and—and I was just set up these elaborate massive battles, and that’s what they [inaudible], and then I’d go outside and whittled out swords and—And, um, play Army, but that was really the extent of what I thought I would do with that desire to do military stuff. When I was living in Fort Myers[, Florida] in 1986, our [U.S.] senator,<a title="">[1]</a> who, at the time, senator was Senator<a title="">[2]</a> Connie Mack,<a title="">[3]</a> sent out a new letter to us and my dad saw it and it was a little blurb that said, “Hey. Anybody interested in applying to a service aca—academy, um, here’s what you do.” And so, um, my dad said, “Hey, Curt. You should try to do this. You will never get accepted, because you don’t know anybody political, but you can just go ahead and do it for the experience.” and so I did. I went through the process, I interviewed with the co—committee, I did all the PT [physical training] tests, I did the medical exams, I finished my grades, I showed all the stuff that I had done, and then I forgot about it, and, um, I had gone to community college, as well, like what you did. Edison Community College. Now it’s [Florida] SouthWest[ern] State College. and I was going to graduate from there and then I was either going to go to the University of Florida or Florida State [University], whichever school had the higher ratio of females to males. Dunn [laughs]. Sawyer That was my criteria for de—deciding. and so one day, in the mail, came this official looking binder, and, um—and I opened it up, and I looked at it, and it said, um, “The United States Military Academy is pleased to offer you a letter of-of ac—of, uh—of acceptance to the class of 1986”—the class of ‘90—“at West Point.” So that’s how I started my military career. Dunn Mmhmm, and so you went to West Point? Sawyer I did. Dunn Okay. So how was West Point? What was your experience at West Point? Sawyer Hm, you know, um, it was something that I—I did not really prepare for. When I got there, um, a lot of my classmates had already prepared they knew what they were up—so There’s a lot of reading, a lot of memory work you have to do. It’s called “bugle notes.” it’s that thick. You memorize it all: insignia, rank, history, sayings, important figures that graduated—all that stuff. Um, they knew all that stuff, they knew how to shine their shoes and their boots, and they knew how to do a proper salute, and they knew—and I knew nothing about that. So it took me a while to figure that all out, and, um—but once I did it went well enough. Um, yeah. Dunn Is there anything, um, memorable about West Point? Do you have any, like, experiences that you enjoyed there? Sawyer Yeah, I think every single minute of my four years there is seared into my memory. Um, so it—I’m very proud, um, of my West point experience. I’m glad I went. At the time, it was a little bit—I’ve always been a little bit of, um—of an independent type. Um, kinda a little bit of a free thinker. Not in a really kind of a weird or aggressive way, but just always been independent-minded, and that’s not what West point is about. So, um, it’s been around since [March 16,] 1802, and so there’s a history, and there’s a structure, and there’s a way of doing things, and you either comply with it and you do well, or if you don’t, then you really kind of—you just don’t make it. So, um—so once I kinda came to grips with that, um, I did well. I, you know—the experiences were very rich. The classmates, which[sic] I still keep in contact with, um, the things I did, the training that I did. During the summers, we really wouldn’t have summers off in military training for vacation. We would go on military training. So I went to Air Assault School<a title="">[4]</a> and I got my Air Assault wings [Badge], went to Airborne School and did that, went to Germany for six weeks, and so just a lot of kind of—life at a hundred miles an hours. Dunn And what did you do after West Point? Sawyer Well, um, with West Point comes, um, a commitment—a military commitment in the Army, and so, um, I went into the Army and did that for four and a half years. I was stationed at—at different places and did different things. Do—do you want me to share that with you? Dunn Yeah, yeah. Where—where were you stationed? Sawyer Okay. So once I graduated from West Point, um, my parents bought me a trip to, um, Cancún[, Quintana Roo, Mexico] with a buddy, and, um, so we did that to kind of celebrate the four years of hard work, which is where I met my wife, Uh, by—By the way. She was my travel agent. I’ll tell that story a little bit later. Dunn Okay [laughs]. Sawyer And, um—and so then after that, I went to the Officer Basic Corps in Fort Benning, Georgia, and then I went to Ranger School, um, and then, um—and then my first duty assignment was in [South] Korea, and, um, did Korea for a while, had a regular line. It’s called a “line platoon,” which is a platoon of—in infantrymen, at the time, and then, um, there I took over—it’s called a “scout platoon,” which is a smaller unit—but basically we would go out and were kinda the eyes and ears of the overall battalion, and, um, once I left Korea, then I came back to the United States and went to Savannah, Georgia, and I served with the 75th Ranger [Regiment] battalion. So the first—first Ranger battalion in Savannah, Georgia, and did that for a while, and then I wrapped up my service. Dunn Now, you said you went to Korea. Um, what—what was it like going to Korea? What were your first experiences and thoughts, while you were in Korea? Sawyer Yeah, um, you know, it was kind of a surprise that I even went to Korea. The way West point does it is that everything you do, um, counts against your rank, and so there is roughly 1,000 of us that entered, um, our plebe year, and so roughly 900 graduated. and so what they do—so every PT, every—every test that you take, every PT test you take, every academic grade you get, every sport that you play, every demerit that you get, everything goes into this basically a formula, and you’re rank-ordered from number one all the way down to the bottom. So you always know where you stand, in terms of the rest of your classmates, and so, what you do then, is you pick the branch that you want to go, and generally most folks get that they want. I always wanted to go infantry, and then what happens is, at some point in time, several couple month before we graduated, they take you into an auditorium, and we’re all in there, and your names are all—all 900—and then all of the available slots that are available worldwide, in terms of duty stations, right? And they’re all there. They’re all on the board. So the number one person… Dunn Mmhmm. Sawyer Who, in my class, was a guy by the name of Ed Hoyt, was just this—photographic memory—he is the first choice. So the—the best slots always go first. Vicenza[, Veneto], Italy, always goes first, Hawaii goes, Fort Ord, California, always go first. All the cool place go, and then they work down the list. So I was about mid-pack. I was like around 450 or so, and I had planned—I was dating this girl, and we was all serious, and it was love and all that sort of thing, and so we had agreed that we were going to—that I was going to go to Fort Lewis, Washington. I was going to stay stateside, and, um, we were going to continue the relationship. and so when it can time, when they called my name, Cadet Curt Sawyer, I stood up and fully expected to say, “Fort Lewis, Washington,” but what came out of my mouth was “the Republic of Korea.” and honest to goodness, [inaudible] I’m like—and my friends all looked at me, and I looked at them, and I’m like, “What have I done?” And, um—and that’s where I went, and so, um, the relationship ended pretty quickly thereafter, and, um, I went to Korea. So Korea was cool, just because, um, back then, it was fairly tense still. There’s still no formal treaty ending the [Korean] War between North Korea and South Korea. So it—it—it could be tense on the Demilitarized Zone—the DMZ, and, um, so I spent quite a bit of time on the DMZ, with—with the, eh—there—there’s a couple of guard posts that are right there. One of them is Guard Post Ouellette, and it’s actually surrounded on three sides by North Korea. So it kinda jets out and, um, it’s pretty tense, and we would do patrols, and—and look for the North Koreans, and they would look for us, and that sorta of thing. So I wasn’t married. I didn’t have, um, commitments, and so it was a time that I really dove into my craft of learning to be an Army officer, and doing as well as I could. Um, there were several of my classmates that[sic] I went to West Point with, and I went to Airborne School, and I went to Ranger School—they were over there, and so we were pretty close, and we were just we really, really trained hard, and—And, um—yeah. Dunn Okay, and you said you went to Airborne and… Sawyer Air Assault. Dunn Air Assault School. Do you want to talk about those? And how those experiences helped you? Sawyer Yeah, um, those are kinda expected. Those are schools that are kinda expected, um, as an Army infantry officer, um, especially someone that wants to go to, um, Ranger School, and then serve in a Ranger battalion. you—you really—it’s hard to be in a Ranger battalion and not have—be airborne qualified, because of a lot of what Rangers do is you parachute in and do your mission, and so it’s just one of those things, and Airborne School is pretty straightforward. I went to it my junior year. They call it a “cow” at West Point. Your junior year, you’re—you’re a cow. Yeah. It goes: plebe, and then yearly, and then cow, and then firstie, right? And so, um, straightforward. You do five jumps, and then you get your Airborne wings, and you put it on, you wear them, you walk around like somebody special, because you—you jumped out an airplane five times. So it was cool. It was hot, and then Air Assault School is where you—you—basically, you repel out of helicopters, and, um, it’s—it’s pretty straightforward. It actually was a hard course—not the physical part. It’s just you had to learn how to—to rig items, Jeeps, equipment, and that sorta thing, in order to be able to transport them, and so it’s pretty technical, and that was kinda hard. But, um, and that as in Fort Kentu—um, that was in, um—I forget the name—and in Kentucky. That was really hot. Everything I did, all the classes, or courses, were in the middle of the summer, it felt like. So they were good. It was good training. It helped me in my craft as an Army officer. Dunn Okay. Um, now, while you’re in Korea—we’re gonna go back to Korea—um, what did you do when you weren’t working? What was your, like, R&R [rest and recuperation], while in Korea? Sawyer Um, yeah, you know, there wasn’t that much time that we were off, um, because we were, um, either at the home base, um, getting ready to go back to the DMZ or, um—or we were recovering from out last mission to the DMZ, or, um, we were actually at the DMZ—the Demilitarized Zone, and what that is: it’s basically a line that—the 45th Parallel [North] that divides North and South Korea. Dunn Mmhmm. Sawyer And, um, the few times that we—the times that we had off, we would go into the city of Seoul[, South Korea]. So we learned how to take the train and—and the sub—and, uh, the subway—and go into Seoul, and there’s a little place called Itaewon, which is were a lot of us would go. Um, I can’t tell you too much about it, because it was one of—it was kind of a younger, wilder, um, time that was a little bit of a blur. Dunn That’s okay [laughs]. Sawyer [laughs]I will tell you this: they have this stuff “soju,” right? Which is—it’s kinda like our white lightning. It’s—it’s, um—really, really, powerful, clear alcohol. And so you can’t drink it straight, ‘cause it’ll kill ya, I mean, it’s like drinkin’ gasoline. So [laughs] whatcha do though is you is mix it with, um, different kinds of Kool-Aids [laughs], and honest to goodness—and so, um, you know—cherry Kool-Aid, or grape Kool-Aid, or whatev—and so it tastes like Kool-Aid. You can’t taste the—the booze in it. So you drink a couple of those, and you just really kind of, you know, be all you can be as a young, American soldier in a foreign country. Dunn [laughs]. Sawyer [laughs]. Dunn And how long were you in Korea for? Sawyer A year. Dunn Okay, and when you came back, you said you went to Savannah, Georgia? Sawyer Yes. Dunn Okay. Sawyer That, um—so I was in Korea And, um—and so the scout platoon became available, so I got selected to do that, which is—which is kinda of an honor, because, um—it just is. Um, ‘cause there is just one scout platoon in a battalion, and, um, and the thing about scouts is, um, you—you have to go out, and you have to be very tactical, you have to be very—you cannot be seen, Right? So you kind of—you integrate. Well, we had a colonel that was, um—came from the old guard in Washington, D.C, and those are the ones—the Tomb of the Unknown Soldiers. So they walk, and all the pomp and the ceremony, and all that sorta thing. Well, that stuff is great, but it doesn’t really work when you’re out in the field, you know? There it’s more about performance, more—it—more about getting the bad guy before the bad guy get you, and so I didn’t wear full uniform that—that he wanted. He thought I should. For example, I would take my helmet off. When you’re out in the woods, you know, it’s really kinda hard to hear, and—and, um, be stealthy and crafty when you have this big ol’ thing on your head that’s covering your ears. So I’d take that off, and I would have the boys put—called “watch caps” or “balaclavas.” Well, he caught wind of that, and really, really, um, really, kinda hit the roof, and was determined that he was just going to kinda ruin my military career off of that, and, uh, the thing about him though: he was West Point, so he knew I was a West Point, and he said, “Well, let me give this,” you know—‘cause a lot of folks were really kinda rooting for me saying, “No. this guy is little bit kinda on the wild side maybe, but he’s really, really good at what he does, and so give him a chance.” So what he did is like, “Okay, Lieutenant Sawyer. I’m gonna go on a mission with you, alright? And I’m gonna see if you’re as good as what people are sayin’.” And so, um, so he showed up and—and, of course, we have all our equipment, you know? For example, I would carry two radios, in order to communicate with higher headquarters, plus also my—my soldiers that[sic] were all spread out all over kind of Korea. Dunn Mmhmm. Sawyer And, um, so between all that equipment, it’s maybe 70-80 pounds of weight, and so he showed up with just his little—this kind of thing, with his water and his radio, and said, “Okay, Lieutenant Sawyer. Let’s go,” and I’m like “Sir, where’s—where’s all your equipment?” And he’s like, “I got my Jeep tailing me, so, um, don’t worry about me. You just show me what ya got.” So, um—so I’m like, “Okay.” So I— told my platoon sergeant “Alright. Sergeant Iver[sp]. Get ready. Um, we’re gonna climb the tallest mountain I can find,” and, um— and so we did, and, um, a lot—a lot of it was climbing on our hands and knees, and it took most of the day to climb the mountain, and we got to the top, and then we set up camp, and, um—and then I deployed all my different scouts, and—and, um—and basically, we did such a good job that the colonel changed his mind, and, um—and so therefore, um—but then the next continuation of that is that the Rangers came recruiting to Korea, and, um, all my friends were like, “Rangers. That’s—that’s the pinnacle. We wanna go. Um, we wanna be a Ranger.” so, like, “Let’s go, Curt.” and I’m like, “No. I have only about a month left in Korea and I already have orders.” I’m gonna go to Fort Smith, Arkansas, with a—it’s called a “Joint Readiness Training Center”—the JRTC. I’m fine with that. I’ve come to grips with that. I’m kinda looking forward to it. I’m not really much interested in this Rangering stuff, and so they’re like, “Well, at least come along with us.” And, um, so I went with them, and I interviewed with the Rangers, and then, um, eh, strangely enough, I was the only one that—that was accepted, and was offered, um, an invitation to join the Rangers, and so once that happened, I thought, Okay. Well, I guess this is too good an offer to refuse, and so I ended up going to Savannah with the 1st Ranger battalion. Dunn Okay, and what was your job in the 1st Ranger battalion. What was—what did you do exactly? Sawyer Yeah, um, yeah. Uh, Rangers are—are part of [United States Army] Special Operations [Command], and so my job was a platoon leader to lead, and—and their big platoons, so it’s roughly 55, um—55 men, and, um, our job was different things: to raids, to do ambushes. We would—we would parachute in most of the time and—and do our—do our mission, and then get extracted. um, sometimes, it would be fast strobing—it’s called “fast strobing,” where you have a helicopter that comes in, and then basically, you jump out, grab the rope, and—and you slide down, and jump out of the way, and the helicopter keeps moving like this, so you go, and you kinda just go, and you assemble and move off. Dunn Mmhmm. Sawyer Um, so ambushes, raids. Um, a big part of it was, um, airfield seizures—airfield—airfield takes downs, which is actually pretty cool, ‘cause we had a special vehicles, that, um—special vehicles Land Rovers, that were made just for the Rangers, that would fit into the airplanes. So the [Lockheed] C-130s [Hercules] and the [Lockheed] C-141s [Starlifter] [sniffs]. Um it—it’s called “Jeeps” and “bikes.” So, uh, [laughs] it’s pretty cool. So you’d drop the ramp of the—of the aircraft, and then you’d drive your Jeeps up there, and we also had dirt bikes, and, um, our job was, um, once other members of the platoon would go in—jump in, and secure the airfield, make sure there was no debris on the runway—We would come in, drop the ramps, disembark, drive off, and then establish blocking positions, so that the enemy could not retake the—the airfield. So different things. Yeah. Dunn And, um, uh, did you see any combat at all? Sawyer No. Dunn No? Sawyer No, I did not. When I was in Korea—Korea—since Korea has just kind of a—kind of a special mission—because we’re at peace, but we’re not really—um, I did not go to the First, um, Iraq War.<a title="">[5]</a> When I was in Ranger School, um—I remember in January of ’91, we were doing a patrol at Eglin Air Force Base, and so we had just jumped into our—our rubber boats, called “Zodiacs” or “RB-15s,” and we were doing a mission. It was the last mission of that phase of Ranger School, and we were all just really tired and really weak, and, we just wanted to be kinda done with it—just done with it, and, um, course, it’s night. All the—all the missions you do in the military are—are at night, um, and so we had just pushed off, and we were just about to start rowing, and then this big ol’ colonel—this big ol’ colonel that[sic] I have never seen before—he must have of weighed 250 pounds—came running and jumped into our—our boat, and then, we—we could see just enough in the moonlight that he looked like he had some rank that kinda outranked us, or we were a little bit different, and he was listening to a radio, and that’s when we had first started bombing. That’s when we first went into Iraq, and he was listening to it and said, “Alright, Rangers. This is for real now. We’re goin’ to war. Every single one of you.” you know, gave some colorful adjectives, um, “Will be over there, um, inside of two months. So you better that this seriously,” which we already were, But, um—and so we were momentarily kinda pumped, you know, because when you’re in the military and that sorta thing that we’re doing, you kind of—you wanna go into combat, you want go where the danger is, but then after that, we were mostly worried about this big ol’ colonel was just gonna make our jobs harder to row, and—and, so, um, that’s what we’re mostly worried about. Dunn Um, did you stay in touch with your family, while you were over there? Sawyer Well, um, that gets in the story of my wife. So do you wanna hear about this? [laughs]. Dunn Yeah. Sawyer I won’t tell you all the details. Dunn [laughs]. Sawyer But, um—so when I graduated from West Point, my parents sent my best friend and I to a trip to Cancún, and so, um, we had to go to a travel agent. My mother, for some reason or another, got so upset with our normal travel agent. So we said, “We’re just not gonna go to her anymore. We’re gonna go fine a different travel agent.” So back then you didn’t really have the Internet. You couldn’t pull up your—your PDA and see where the—we just went driving, and so we saw a “travel agent,” and Mom said “That’s it. That’s the one.” [sniffs] And so we walk in there, and there was this really, really pretty girl with really, deep green eyes, and I’m like, Hello. I didn’t say that. Dunn [laughs]. Sawyer I was thinking that, right? And, um, so we sat down, and she arranged it, and I’m looking at her, and I’m thinking Wow, you know? Um, I—I—I think, um—and you can kinda tell, she kinda was mildly intrigued with me—not overwhelmed—but mildly, and so, um—and so when I get back from Cancún, I’m gonna come back and I’m gonna ask this—this lady out, Right? And so then when I came back, um, I—I remembered her, and I had every intention, and then I end up meeting this other girl, who actually was a cop in Miami[, Florida], who was also a lawyer, but she put the law thing on the side, and she wanted to work a cop in one of the most dangerous areas of Fort Lauderdale[, Florida], and so I got kinda sidetracked with that nonsense for about five months, until was finally able to get outta that—get out of that. That was really not a good relationship. So then I got my orders to go to Korea, right? And, um—so I had to fly commercial, so I went back to the travel agent, and then when I walked in, I’m like Hello. I—I kinda, like, forgotten [laughs] all about her, but then when I saw those pretty green eyes, I[sic] like, Whoa, you know? And it was a mess. I was young, right? We were all young, and, um—and so then, I ask her out, and, um, so we dated for a week, and then I went to Korea, and the way Korea is, back then, you really don’t come back, and there really wasn’t a whole lot of e-mail back then. Um, so, we wrote. We hand wrote letters, back and forth, and she saved every single of them. She still has them. We’ve been married 22 years. She saved every single one of ‘em, and I was—and I was faithful to her, um, until about eight months through, and then—and I know this sounds funny—I mean, [inaudible— I met the colonel’s daughter. Literally, I met the colonel’s daughter, and, um, [laughs] and so, um, started dating her, and so I wrote Lisa [Sawyer]—my Lisa—a “Dear Lisa” letter, you—you know? And bought a 12-pack, and got liquored up, and wrote it, and she saved that doggone letter Dunn [laughs]. Sawyer [laughs] And she still has that doggone letter. So alright—and anyways, so I’m like, “Sorry. Met the colonel’s daughter. It’s been nice knowing ya.” we only dated for a week. What’s the big deal, right? And, um [sniffs]—and that was that. So the colonel’s daughter came back—she was in Texas. I came back, and, um, thought everything was good, right? Unbeknownst to me, while I was I Korea, my parents took Lisa up under their wings, and really—they really like her, and so they stated to take her to church with them, and—and really kind of mentored her, and developed this close relationship. So when I got back I said, um, “Dad and Mom,” uh, you know, “Lisa and I are no longer together.” “Well, what happened?” So I explained it all, and they’re like, “Well, that’s no good.” um, “That’s not the way to do it. We’re not happy with—with that, but that’s your decision, but you do not do that via a letter.” I’m like, “Alright. I’ll call her.” and they’re— “Nope. You gotta go see her and tell her face to face that you’re sorry.” And, um, and but you’re formally— I’m formally ending the relationship. They’re pretty old school. Um, I respect that now. At the time I was like, Ugh. So I call Lisa up, and said “Lisa, this is Curt. Um, I—I wanna come see you.” She hung up on me. So I went back to my parents, and said, “Hey, I’m off the hook. She doesn’t wanna talk to me.” They’re like, “No, no, no.” [laughs]. “You’re a Ranger. It doesn’t work that well. Figure out a way.” So I called her back, said “Lisa,” you know, “The way my parents are. They won’t get off my back, until I come see you. Can I come see you? Just, eh, five minutes. Don’t even have to walk in the door. Just need to see you, check the block, then my parents are off my back. Help me out.” She was like, “Okay. Come over.” So I went over to see her. She opened out, uh—the door, and I’m like, Hello, you know? The—I know, and, um, she ended up inviting me in. so, um—and so the long story short of it is: um, I broke it off with the colonel’s daughter, and then Lisa and I started dating again, and we got married six months later, and, um, so even with all that nonsense of how that started out, um, eh, she’s just been a blessing, and I’ve been absolutely faithful to her for 22 years, and she’s just more than I deserve. So that was kinda that. Then the colonel’s daughter, right? So she was flying into Orlando, but flying out of Fort Myers. So I still had to go pick her up, and she was pissed at me. She was pissed. So I went to pick her up, didn’t speak a word for like three-quarters of the trip, and then the floodgate’s going, “How could you do this?” I mean, and, uh, I’m like, “What can I say? I’m sorry. I know I—it’s on me,” you know? So then, I put her on the plane and—and that was it. No more drama. Dunn [laughs] Okay. Um, what did you do when you—after, with your wife and—meeting her—what did you do after coming home from Korea and after you got out of the service? Like, what did you do afterwards? Sawyer Yeah, um, when I came back—so I did the Rangering thing for a while in Savannah, and, um, deployed quite a bit. Did a lot of, um—did a lot of trainings—did a lot of training. Really enjoyed it, really enjoyed the Rangers, and really enjoyed the Army. Um, When I was at West Point—even though I really appreciated my West Point experience and I’m very proud of it, very proud of the mission it has, and what—the impact it continues to have—but I said, You know, if the Army is anything like West Point, then I want nothing to do with it. I’m just gonna do my time, and I’m going to get out, and, um, the Army was completely different from the West Point, for the most part, and, uh, then I got out, um, from West Point into the Army, I—I tried all the stuff that I was taught. You know, it’s gotta be formal and—and all this sorta thing, and they laughed at me. Like, “Get over yourself, Lieutenant. That’s just not the way it works.” Well, I’m like, “Okay. How does it work?” “Just be yourself, just lead the men, just lead, alright?” I’m like, “Oh, okay. Well, that’s great.” so I scrapped all this stuff. It—it really wasn’t scrapping all the stuff, but it was truly being a leader and taking charge, and, um—so yeah, um, therefore, I really, really, um, really enjoyed the military. Um, really enjoyed what the Rangers did and what they stood for. Um, Lisa and I got married while I was still in the military, and then um, we wanted to start a family and that sorta thing. So, um, decided to get out, and then after that, went into the, um—the private sector. Worked for three Fortune 500 companies for 14 years, before I came to UCF. Dunn Now, you really seemed to enjoy the Army. What was your most memorable experience? Or something you really enjoyed in it? Like, what was—like maybe a good story, or hanging out with your friends? What was something you really, really enjoyed? Sawyer Hm, hm. Dunn It can be multiple. It doesn’t just have to be one. Sawyer Yeah, you know, I—I really, um—when I was with the Rangers, um, we de—we went and, um, trained with the French Foreign Legion, um, in Corsica, France. So, um, three companies of the, um—of the batta—um, three platoons of the company went to Belgium, and they did their training, and my platoon was selected to go and train with the Legionnaires, and, um, that was really cool, because not many military—not many American units are able to do that—to lay claim to training with the French Foreign Legion, which, when you’re in military circle, that’s—they’re well-known. They’re pretty hardcore. Um, Rangers—we considered ourselves hardcore, so it’s, —it was kinda cool for two hardcore entities to get together and train together. They trained differently from us. Um, by that, I’ll give an example. We were running a live fire, and, um—in France—and kinda showing them American tactics, and right in the middle of that—American tactics—the—the military officers are very much involved in that—coordinating, that sorta thing. My counterpart—my French counterpart pulled me off the side and said, “Hey, Curt,” you know? He didn’t call me Curt. It was Lieutenant Sawyer. “We gotta go over here and do lunch.” I’m like, “What is that?” [laughs]. “What do you have in the basket?” And he pulled out a loaf of bread, and he pulled out some cheese, and he pulled out a bottle out a bottle of wine/ and he was kinda just wanting to sit up on that p—hillside and just kinda watch it all, and I’m like, “Thank you for the offer, but I can’t do that. I got live bullets flying down range, and it’s a very dangerous situation, and I need to be…” so he—he was—was just different tactics, and the other thing I would say that’s kinda interesting is that we—we actually parachuted with them, you know? They had these old planes, and we looked at the plane—My Rangers all looked at the plane, and were, “We’re gonna jump out of that thing?” It’s called a [Transall] “C-160.” It looked old. It was old, and, um—and they were like, “Yup, and we were like, “Okay,” you know? And so we waited, and we sat there on the tarmac out on the airfield, and we waited and we waited, and we’re like, “Where are the pilots?” and they’re like, “They’re still, um, having lunch.” and so they were inside having lunch, and drinking wine, and kinda getting half crocked. So when they came out, they were kinda a staggering a little bit, and, um, I’m like, “We’re not gonna jump with these guys. It’s—it’s a little bit…” Plus, there’s a thunderstorm coming, the wind was picking up. When you—when you jump out of airplanes, the one thing you don’t want to do it jump out when the wind is blowing too hard, because you can’t control were you land, and, um—and basically they said, “Well, I thought Americans were tough,” you know? “You gonna let a—a little wind, a little wine kinda…” so, of course, we had to, and so we went up and—and we jumped, and, um, it was really, really windy. What they do is they throw a—it’s called a “dummy.” Um, it’s—it’s kind of, you know—it’s a stuffed—supposed to simulate a—a man—a grown man, and they throw it out, and then, wherever it goes, they adjust where the jumpers go out, and generally, you—the best case scenario: you throw the dummy out and the dummy just goes straight down. This time, he threw the dummy and the dummy went wick with the wind, and we’re like, “Whoa.” And so we jumped, and, um—and—and the wind is just taking us haywire, and, um, outside the compound—the compound was rimmed with—with [inaudible] or wire, and all that sorta thing, and, um—and as we’re going down and—and thinking, Well, this is gonna really kinda be painful, I saw my platoon sergeant just go fwoomp. He just was dropping like a rock, and I’m like, Whoa. What’s going on with that? And so I looked at him, and he figured out a way to really kinda make his parachute drop a lot faster. Basically, pulled his risers down, put his feet in ‘em, pushed them down, and it made him just go down. So I’m like, Let me try that. So I did it. So he and I were the only ones to land kinda where we were supposed to, and all the rest of the boys landed in the wire, or on the roofs, and on trees, and all that, and it took us the rest of the day to clean us all up, but nobody got hurt, and, um—so yeah. Things like that. Just kind of hardcore training, and, um, strong relationships, and, um, just standing ready to kinda serve our country, whenever we were called. Dunn And you said you made a lot of friends at West Point. Um, do you stay in contact with people from West Point? Or any people from the Rangers, as well? Sawyer Yeah, I do still. Some, you know—over—over the course of 20 years, you know, things drift, people change. That’s one things we really noticed is that we’ve changed. My wife and I really changed, and so, um, what used to interest us, just in terms of likes and—and [inaudible] and that sort of thing, they really—not so much anymore, so—inevitably too, but, yes, we have kept in touch with some of my classmates. Some of them are still in. some of them are now getting to the point they’re—they’re, um, becoming generals, brigadier generals—which is kinda cool, ‘cause, you know, we remember each other from just doing spirit missions at West Point, and getting hazed, and just doing silly things, and getting trouble over it, and that’s[sic] the memories a lot of us have, and now they’re—they’re national leaders, you know? A lot of my classmates have gone on and are part of the NSA [National Security Agency], and CIA [Central Intelligence Agency], and FBI [Federal Bureau of Investigation], and—and, um, into politics, and—and really had done well for themselves. So, yeah. It’s kinda cool to keep up with them. Um, Facebook, obviously, we see a lot. A lot of my classmates have children that are now at West Point, so, um—so, yeah. It’s kinda cool. Dunn Um, has[sic] your experiences in the Army impacted your life? Sawyer Sure. Um, inevitably. One: it was just, uh—I think with anybody that that’s in, it’s just a special time. It’s just a really special time, because you’re so focused. One: you—I don’t think you will find anybody—you will—it will—rarely, that you will find someone that doesn’t really, really strongly believe in the mission of what we did, and so a lot of times, what we do—we go into the business world, we go in the corporate world, we—we get jobs in that sorta thing, and say, “Well, what’s your mission? What is your purpose?” and well, if you’re in the corporate world, it is to make somebody else money. It’s to make money. So you—you put that and you stack that against serving and honoring and protecting my country. Well, it’s kinda hard to compare with that. So when you put that—people strongly believe in that—then everything has a greater sense of urgency, just in terms of training, and—and awareness, and wanting to—to hone your craft, In order to be able to stand ready, when you’re called So, yeah. It’s just kind of a special time, and, um—and certainly, some of the characters—the—the discipline—discipline, and the focus, and, you know—and the—the mentality that you’ll never give up, ‘til you accomplished the mission, you know? The mission manifests itself in many different ways, depending on what you do, but still, at the end of the day, still an objective or a mission, and the military just teaches you how to be creative in how you’re going to figure out how to do it. Dunn Okay. Sawyer So that makes sense? Dunn Yes, yes [laughs]. Sawyer Okay. Dunn Um, well, um, we are getting to the end. So, um, would you advise anyone else, um, today to enlist? Since you enlisted, would you advise anybody else who would like to enlist that it’s a good thing, a bad thing? Sawyer Yeah, I think it’s a great thing. You know, there’s[sic] two different ways about going about it. One is through the officer, um—through the officer channel. The other is through enlisted, you know? And so each have its attractiveness for—depending on what people’s goals are. Dunn Mmhmm. Sawyer You know? So I always wanted to do the officer thing, just because I wanted—I wanna be a leader, you know? You—you’re either a leader, or you’re kinda not. So, if you’re a leader, you kinda wanna be right in the middle of things, and—and you have more impact as an officer, generally. Um, um, I—I know as an NCO—a non-commissioned officer—you can still have that, but it takes longer to get that so, but certainly, as enlisted, I think that’s a very noble profession. Um, and it certainly helps with the GI Bill, and benefits, [U.S. Department of] VA [Veterans Affairs] care. A lot of folks don’t think about that from an early age. Dunn Mmhmm. Sawyer But once you serve in the military, you have access to VA—Veterans Administration care the rest of your life, and, um, that’s kinda a bid deal, and a lot of the other benefits that come along with it. So that’s not the primary reason why you should join, but certainty, I think it’s part of the consideration, and, um, the other is: there’s not a whole lot of pensions around anymore. If you do your 20 years in the military, then you get a pension, and, um—so, yeah. I would strongly encourage folks that[sic]—that[sic] are really, truly want to serve their country to—to consider it, and—regardless whether it’s Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines, Coast Guard—all that. I’ve never been one to say, “Well, it’s gotta be Army only.” Yeah. We all serve. Dunn Uh, is there anything else you want to talk about? Any stories you wanna tell us? Anything that comes to mind? Sawyer Hm, no. I don’t think so. Dunn No? Okay. Well, I would like to thank you for sharing your story with us, and myself, and the UCF community, and we will be in touch with you once the copy of the interview is done. Sawyer Okay. Well, thank you. Dunn Thank you. <div> <div> <a title="">[1]</a> Correction: Representative. </div> <div> <a title="">[2]</a> Correction: Representative. </div> <div> <a title="">[3]</a> Legally named Cornelius Alexander McGillicuddy III. </div> <div> <a title="">[4]</a> Officially the Sabalauski Air Assault School (TSAAS). </div> <div> <a title="">[5]</a> Also known as the Persian Gulf War, First Gulf War, Gulf War I, Kuwait War, and Iraq War. </div> </div> 45th Parallel North 75th Ranger Regiment Air Assault Badge Air Assault School Airborne School aircraft airplanes alcohol alcoholic beverages Army Air Assault School Army Airborne School Army Ranger balaclava bugle notes C-130 C-141 C-160 Community Veterans History Project Connie Mack Cornelius Alexander McGillicuddy II Cornelius Alexander McGillicuddy III Corsica, France cows Curt Sawyer CVHP Demilitarized Zone Democratic People's Republic of Korea Department of Veterans Affairs deployments DMZ Dojuan Sawyer DPRK DZ Ed Hoyt Edison Community College education Eglin AFB Eglin Air Force Base enlistment fast strobing firstie Florida SouthWestern State College Fort Benning, Georgia Fort Myers, Florida Forty-Fifth Parallel North French Foreign Legion GI Bill Guard Post Ouellette Itaewon, Yongsan-gu, Seoul, South Korea Iver Jeep Joint Readiness Training Center JRTC Jump School Korean War Land Rovers line platoons Lisa Dojuan Lockheed C-130 Hercules Lockheed C-141 Starlifter military benefits military education military training North Korea Officer Basic Corps parachutes planes plebe years plebes R&R Ranger Ranger Regiment Ranger School RB-15 Republic of Korea rest and recuperation Robin Dunn ROK Sabalauski Air Assault School San Francisco, California Savannah, Georgia scout platoon scout platoons Seoul, South Korea Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944 Seventy-Fifth Ranger Regiment soju soldiers South Korea Special Operations Command Tennessee training Transall C-160 TSAAS U.S. Army U.S. Army Special Operations Command U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs United States Military Academy at West Point USASOC USMA VA veterans Veterans Affairs watch caps West Point yearly Zodiac https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka/files/original/efd5049d910182e50916c3c85f53df44.pdf b46eaec4a1988206e0a961500df2e88d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title UCF Community Veterans History Project Collection Description As part of RICHES of Central Florida, UCF intends to record, archive, and make accessible oral history interviews of Central Florida veterans. Diversity is a main focus for this project since there are many different subgroups under the group veterans, all with important stories. While the histories will be largely archived and made available through the UCF library, a portion will be contributed to the ongoing Veterans History Project based out of the Library of Congress. Contributor <a href="http://library.ucf.edu/about/departments/special-collections-university-archives/" target="_blank">Special Collections and University Archives</a>, University of Central Florida Libraries, University of Central Florida Alternative Title CVHP Collection Subject Veterans--Florida United States. Army Army United States. Navy Navy United States. Air Force Air Force United States. Marine Corps Marine Corps Is Part Of <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>. Language eng Type Collection Coverage Jacksonville, Florida Orlando, Florida Honolulu, Hawaii Pearl Harbor, Hawaii Great Lakes, Illinois Long Island, New York Newport, Rhode Island Norfolk, Virginia Germany Qaasuitsup, Greenland Keflavik, Southern Peninsula, Iceland Azores Islands, Portugal Mediterranean Sea Contributing Project <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a> Curator Cepero, Laura Digital Collection <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a> Source Repository <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida External Reference "<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">About the Project</a>." UCF Community Veterans History Project, RICHES of Central Florida, University of Central Florida. http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/. Has Part <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/109" target="_blank">Lone Sailor Navy Memorial History Project Collection</a>, UCF Community Veterans History Project, RICHES of Central Florida. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title Oral History of Philip Rogers Alternative Title Oral History, Rogers Subject Veterans--Florida Navy Orlando (Fla.) Description An oral history interview of Philip Rogers (b. 1953), who served in the U.S. Navy from 1978 to 1998. Rogers was born in the Bronx borough of New York City, New York, in 1953. He attended Lehman College for undergraduate school and Indiana University for graduate school. In May of 1978, Rogers was commissioned as an officer and assigned to teach engineering at the Nuclear Power School at Naval Training Center Orlando (NTC Orlando). After four and a half years, he became an Engineering Duty Office in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. This interview was conducted by Killian Hiltz in Orlando on November 14, 2014. Interview topics include Rogers' background, becoming a commissioned officer, teaching at the Nuclear Power School at NTC Orlando, serving as an Engineering Duty Officer in Pearl Harbor, serving in the Naval Reserves, advanced training, the USS Nathan Hale, the Cold War, the University of Central Florida (UCF), his wife and family, and the terrorist attacks on September 11th, 2001. Table Of Contents 0:00:00 Introduction 0:00:31 Background 0:03:05 Becoming a commissioned officer 0:09:02 Pearl Harbor, Hawaii 0:10:41 Naval Reserves 0:11:36 Advanced training and the USS Nathan Hale 0:15:24 Hawaii 0:17:26 Making suggestions and dry docking 0:18:37 Transition from active duty to Reserve 0:20:03 Naval mentors 0:22:09 Ronald Reagan, the Berlin Wall, the Cuban Missile Crises, and Bill Clinton 0:24:39 Final years in the Reserves and civilian life 0:25:54 Civilian attitudes towards the military 0:26:48 University of Central Florida and wife 0:29:06 Terrorist attacks on September 11th, 2001 0:30:08 Lessons learned from the Navy and benefits of joining 0:32:48 Migrating to Orlando and working at UCF 0:34:29 Closing remarks Abstract Oral history interview of Philip Rogers. Interview conducted by Killian Hiltz in Orlando, Florida, November 14, 2014. Type Moving Image Source <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/503/rec/1" target="_blank">Rogers, Philip</a>. Interviewed by Killian Hiltz, November 14, 2014. Audio/video record available. Item DP0016191, UCF Community Veterans History Project, Naval Training Center Orlando, Orlando, Florida. Requires <a href="http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/" target="_blank">Adobe Flash Player</a> <a href="http://java.com/en/download/index.jsp" target="_blank">Java</a> <a href="https://get.adobe.com/reader/" target="_blank">Adobe Acrobat Reader</a> Is Part Of <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, Naval Training Center Orlando, Orlando, Florida. <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/24" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project Collection</a>, RICHES of Central Florida. Has Format 20-page digital transcript of original 35-minute and 37-second oral history: <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/503/rec/1" target="_blank">Rogers, Philip</a>. Interviewed by Killian Hiltz, November 14, 2014. Audio/video record available. Item DP0016191, UCF Community Veterans History Project, Naval Training Center Orlando, Orlando, Florida. Conforms To Standards established by the <a href="http://www.loc.gov/vets/" target="_blank">Veterans History Projects</a>, Library of Congress. Coverage Bronx, New York City, New York Washington, D.C. Naval Training Center Orlando, Orlando, Florida Pearl Harbor, Hawaii Jensen Beach, Florida University of Central Florida, Orlando, Florida Creator Rogers, Philip Hiltz, Killian Publisher <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a> Date Created 2014-11-14 Date Issued 2015-02 Date Copyrighted 2014-11-14 Format application/website application/pdf Extent 306 MB 196 KB Medium 35-minute and 37-second Digital (DAT) audio/video recording 20-page digital transcript Language eng Mediator History Teacher Civics/Government Teacher Geography Teacher Provenance Originally created by Killian Hiltz and Philip Rogers. Rights Holder <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a> Accrual Method Item Creation Contributing Project <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a> Curator Cepero, Laura Digital Collection <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a> External Reference "<a href="http://cfnavyleague.org/lone-sailor/" target="_blank">The History</a>." Lone Sailor Navy Memorial History Project. http://cfnavyleague.org/lone-sailor/ "<a href="http://rtcorlando.homestead.com/" target="_blank">The History</a>." RTC Orlando. http://rtcorlando.homestead.com/. <a href="http://www.lonesailorfl.com/" target="_blank">A Guide to Historic Orlando</a>. Charleston, SC: History Press, 2006. Click to View (Movie, Podcast, or Website) <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/503/rec/1" target="_blank">Rogers, Philip</a> Transcript Hiltz Today is, um—it is November 14th, 2014. I am interviewing Mr. Phil—Philip Rogers, um, who served in the Navy from 1978 through—to 1998. Mr. Rogers served as an instructor at the Naval [Nuclear] Power School. Uh, he retired as a Commander. My name is Killian Hiltz, I am interviewing, uh, Mr. Rogers as part of the UCF [University of Central Florida] Veterans Community History Project. We are recording this interview, uh, at Orlando, Florida. Um, thank you, Mr. Rogers. Um, uh, where and when were you born? Rogers I was born in the Bronx[, New York City], New York, uh, in 1953. Hiltz Uh, what was your childhood like? Rogers Uh, grew up in a modest, you know, tenant apartment. Went to public schools, um, two years of private schools, went—and then Lehman College, which is a ci—city school. Did that, uh—did that for, you know—through—and then I worked a little bit. Um, and probably when I was like 22, I went off to graduate school in Indiana. Hiltz Um, what was the private school like? Rogers It was good. It was a little more disciplined. The schools I was[sic] in was[sic] a little rough, so my parents took me out to a more, you know—less chance of getting hurt [laughs]—school. Um… Hiltz Um, what was, um—what was college like, for you? Rogers I liked it. I was a commuter. I went back and forth on the train, uh, eh, because we didn’t have a car. So we—I travelled on the train to high school and to college for eight years. Uphill both ways—just joking [laughs]. Um, uh, so I traveled that way, uh, and did my four years there, and I got a degree in chemistry from, eh, um, Lehman College. Hiltz Uh, you mentioned that you went to graduate school, as well. Rogers Yes. Hiltz Uh, what was your gra—what was your grad… Rogers Uh, I got a Master’s degree in chemistry, entomology, from Indiana University. I was in the PhD<a title="">[1]</a> program, but when the Navy came looking for people, I kinda said, Well, I wanna do that. so I kinda left with a Master’s degree and went on to, uh, um—the, um—took the Master’s and then went on to the Navy. Hiltz Um, what did your parents do for a living? Rogers My father was a laborer, worked in a baker[sic], and my mother was just stay-at-home—stay-at-home mom. Hiltz Did you have any siblings? Rogers Brother. Still have a brother. Actually, he lives in Orlando. So… Hiltz Uh, did, uh—your brother also join the service? Rogers No, no. He never did. No. Hiltz Um, did, uh—did anyone in your family before you, uh, serve as enlisted or commissioned? Rogers Yes, my father was—was, um, enlisted in, uh, World—World War II. Um, and my grandfather was in World War I. Hiltz Uh, what branches did they serve? Rogers Army. Both of them, Army. Hiltz Uh, did they see combat? Rogers Uh, yes. Both of them did. Uh, my—In fact, my grandfather had a Purple Heart, and, uh, my father didn’t get a medal, but he had—he had some kind of foot injury or something, but—yeah. So… Hiltz Uh, uh, what caused you to become a commissioned officer? Rogers Well, it was a—it’s a long story. It was like, um— let’s see. Indiana University—it’s kind of cold up there—Bloomington, Indiana. It was like six degrees below zero [sniffs], and, uh, the Navy had a little brochure says—saying, “Would you like to fly to Orlando on the Navy this weekend?” Free. Orlando, Florida. So I said, “Sure.” I had no intention to go into the military—zero. So I went, “Okay. Fine.” so I signed up, and then I had to go take some tests, you know—you know, academic tests and physical tests, and, uh—and then they said,”Well, You know, Admiral [Hyman George] Rickover,” who is the Father of the Nuclear Navy, “would like to interview you in Washington D.C.,” you know, “Would —you—would you like to go?” So they sent me to—first, let’s go back up. Before I went there, they—they told me I was going for an interview. So they showed me the school—so they sent me down here as promised for the trip down here, so I went to the trip in Orlando, and it was great. [Walt] Disney World—they took us to Disney World and showed us—the Nuclear Power School, by the way, was in Orlando, at that time, okay? Just up the road here, by Bennett Drive. Um, so they showed me the school, and it was like 80 degrees. It was really nice. They hooked me in, so I’m like, I’d like to go there. It was—it was an academic job, because, you know, I liked teaching, and it was an academic job, and, you know, I would get paid a lot more there as a graduate student, than as a graduate student. So, uh—so I said, “Okay. It sounds good to me.” So then I went to Washington D.C., uh, for an interview, and, uh, one thing you got to understand that in that the nuclear—in the nuclear program, it’s kind of a select program, and that the admiral that is in charge—the four-star admiral is about as high as you can go in the Navy. He interviews all the applicants, you know, that—that—that come into the program, and so you go there for a day of tests. Take a bunch of written tests, oral exams. They ask all kinds of physical questions, and—and then they ask how to explain things and they do that, and at the end, you go see Admiral Rickover—Hyman Rickover. So I go into this guy’s office, and he’s a four-star admiral, and he’s sitting in a chair. Very little man, probably 5’5”, uh, white grey hair, he was about 78, at the time, and, uh, he—so I sat down. I had long hair, I was a graduate student, I had no inkling of military at all in me. So I sat down, and, uh, the Admiral says to me, I had an American Chemical Society pin on me and the Admiral says to me— um, I had an American Chemical Society pin on me, right? So the Admiral says to me, “Wha—what’s that? What’s that pin on your, uh, lapel there?” So I took it off and I said, “Well, um, this means I’m a member of the American Chemical Society.” And he jumped at me, and he says to me like this—he says, “Let me see that blicity pin.” ‘Kay? I don’t want to put any expletives on this tape, but he—but, uh, he said, uh, um, “Let me see that pin.” so I put it in his hand, and—and he said—looked at me in the eye—and he goes, “How do you know I know more chemistry than you do? Maybe I should keep this pin.” And I said, “Admiral, if that’s the case, then you can get your own pin.” Then he threw is back at me, and then he says, uh, “Did any of the girls tell you that you were good-looking?” I said, “Sure. All the time.” He says, “That’s a proposition. You don’t even know the facts of life. Get out of my office.” So this was my interview with a four-star admiral. So I said, Well, I dunno. I guess I didn’t get that job. So I Walked down the hall, and this captain, that[sic] went in there with me, said, “Congratulations. The Admiral selected you to be an instructor at Nuclear Power School.” So I said, “Great.” so I signed up, finished my—my dissertation for my Master’s degree, and then I, uh—I came down to Orlando. Went—went to some school—uh, Officer School—Officer Indoctrination School, and then I came to Orlando in 1978. I was commissioned in March of 1978, I believe, and, um, —then I, Um, uh, came to or—Orlando in May. Went—went to some—in the school—I went to the school in between then about six weeks. So I—I arrived down here in like May of 1978—in Orlando, and I spent the next four and a half years here. Hiltz Uh, what was your officer, uh, training like? Rogers It wasn’t the standard training that—that you’d normally get. It’s kind of like training—‘cause we weren’t expected to stay in the Navy. We were expected to go in for our four, you know—our—our—our four-year promise, and then leave, Right? So it was very watered down, so to speak. It was not very rigorous as some—some. It was like the same training lawyers get, the doctors get, and—and nurses, the—the professional, you know—the training the professionals gets. It’s [inaudible] how do you—how you act like an officer, and—and, you know—so nothing—nothing too, uh, exotic. Hiltz Uh, what was your family and friends; reaction to you becoming a commissioned officer? Rogers Well, that was funny, because my father was enlisted and he—he had some grumbling about officers. He goes, “I remember—I remember this officer made me salute him.” He goes, “He was a big jerk. I hope you’re not like that.” So [laughs]—so he was a little—he was proud, but yet, he was saying, you know, you gotta be a little humble, you know, when you’re doing this stuff too. So—But I think he was proud that—that I went in there, you know, and—and did it. So, like I said, I had no— I just did it, because hey, it was great. I wanted to go teach and the Navy’s got this job to go teach, you know? I said, I’m not staying in. I said, Honest, no way I’m staying, you know? So then I did my four years. I taught thermodynamics, I taught nuclear physics, you know, regular classical physics, I taught chemistry, radiological—all the stuff, and the thing about that Nuclear Power School: they—they teach you how to teach a class, you know? They teach you how to talk to people, how to make eye contact, how to go back and forth and relate information. I still carry that—that talent to this day, with how they taught me how to do that. So, it was really—it was really good. So I really had—it was the best job of my life. I mean, it was, you know, basically, a day job. No deployment—nothing. It was great for four years. You know, unfortunately, you know, after four years, they want you to leave, ‘cause in the Navy, you get to move up or you move out. So—so that’s what happened. Hiltz ‘Kay. So, uh… Rogers [sniffs]. Hiltz What happened after those four years? Rogers Well, after four years, normally, you get out, right? And this was right at the height of the Cold War, ‘round 19—it was around 1982, and they needed people with engineering background—not necessarily ship driving experience, but with some engineering background, and some knowledge of chemistry, physics—To work on shipyards, to help when the ships—Submarines come in [sniffs]. They help the submarines get ready for sea, and—and fix them, and things like that—to oversee that. So they asked if, you know, I would like to go do that, and I said, “Eh, I’ll think about it,” and then they said, “Would you like to go to Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, and do it?” [laughs]. So I said, “Hm. Okay. I’ll—that sounds good to me.” So I did—I went into what is called the “Engineering Duty Officer Program,” so I went in—which is basically engineering. I—I was very restricted, because I’m colorblind. Eh, when I took my physical, I was actually—they determined that I was colorblind, so I could not drive a ship. So I was restricted as to what I could do. So, I mean—but I could do the engineering stuff, so I was—I became a Restricted Line Officer, which means you don’t drive the ships, but you can do a lot of other things naval officers do. So—so I did that. I was—I went to Submarine School after that, I went to Engineering Du—Duty Officer School, and Nuclear Ship Superintendent School, which show you—show you how to manage repairs of a ship. Not that I would do the repairs myself, but I oversee the people doing it, right? And interface with the ship, as a—as a representative from the Navy to get[?] that, and I did that for about—about, uh, three years, right? And then—it was okay, but it wasn’t teaching. I really wanted to teach. Um, so what—what I did after that time is: I—I—I got out of the Navy in 1986, but I stayed in the [Naval] Reserves, uh, as a—as a[sic] Engineering Duty Officer. Oh, also, on that time while I was on active duty, I got my Engineering Duty Officer Dolphins, which is, you know specialized in submarine repair, and then, after that, um, I got out of the Navy and tended my resignation, but I stayed on—I stayed in the Reserves, and then, I came down to, uh—went down to, um, South Florida. I took a job at a nuclear power plant. I was an instructor, right? Teaching down there, and I stayed in the Reserves, and I drilled for the next 12 years. I—I drilled, uh—drilled my—my—from Jensen Beach, which is about 130 miles from here, to Orlando. I drilled every week—once every week—and two weeks a year, and I—I went up through the chain there, [inaudible], and got my rank there, up to—and made Commander in the Reserves in 1994. Hiltz Uh, what, uh—what was your schooling like, when you were going through the Submarine and Engineering [Duty Officer] Schools—Oh, um, when you were still in the active? What was that like? Rogers Oh, that was, uh—it wasn’t—I mean, it was okay. It was a—was a—it was kinda challenging, because, Uh, you had to—you had to go and know—know how to—and they put you in a room, and they start leaking the pipes, and, you know, you gotta, you know, repair the pipe, so you don’t drown and stuff like that, and then, you know that—you learn a little bit about navigation and how to—how to basically, uh, go through it. I was a little bit senior. I was a Lieutenant when I went through, and most of them were ensigns that[sic] went through there, but, Uh, you know, it was basically how to respond to emergencies on submarines, and then, you know, dive the ship up and down. I was able to do that[?]. I did a—I was able to surface the ship and dive the ship. I did that several times on the simulator and—and in real life— in a real submarine. You know, and one thing that I did not—I neglected to mention is that I was on a submarine for two months, as part of my qualification program. So I was on the Nathan Hale, and we went out—and I can’t tell you where we went—but we went out somewhere in the ocean, and we had missiles on the ship. Uh, we—that was a deterrent patrol that I had to go through to get my qualification, you know, to do that. Hiltz Yeah. Rogers So—and then—then that’s [inaudible]. Nuclear Ship Superintendent School is very technical. It was like how to ma—manage radiation. The Navy is very sensitive to—to nuclear safety and the shipyards have to be—everything perfect. So they want people who are going to follow the rules and know what they’re doing. So they send us to special school to—to kinda—to kinda help us understand how to manage this[sic] nuclear, uh, projects at the shipyard. Hiltz Uh, what, uh— was your, uh—the submarine’s class? Do you—do you know? Rogers Yes, it’s a—it’s a—it was an SSBN [Nuclear Power Ballistic Missile Submarines]. It was a ballistic nuclear submarine, uh, it’s since, has been way since decommissioned. It was a pretty old ship, when I was on it Um, so it carried x number of missiles, and, uh, I ‘m not sure if that is classified anymore, but it’s so many missiles, and what we did was just go out there and wait—wait for launch orders, which, thankfully, never came. So I never really fought in hot war, but I was in the Cold War, which kinda was preventing the big war [laughs]. So… Hiltz Um, what was it like—what was life like on the submarine? Rogers Um, it was very, uh, interesting. It was kind of lonely. Uh, Now, I knew I was only going to be on it for like one patrol, so it was okay, you know? It was interesting. Got to do some—some interesting things, but, for the most part, you really eat a lot. They have—they have—you can eat up to four times a day. It’s just like a cruise ship, but you work [laughs], right? So you have breakfast, you have lunch, you have dinner, and then you have MIDRATS [Midnight Rations] at night, depending on your shift. They always got meals going on in a submarine, so you can eat, eat, eat, and I actually gained 15 pounds, you know, on the submarine, you know? So it was a—it was a bit of a weight curve, trying to get the weight off [laughs], but, uh, you know, it was good. I got the up and down—A lot of stuff in the submarine, you don’t know everything, because a lot of it’s classified, like what they targeted—the stuff—I couldn’t see that. So I never knew where we really were at. So it was all a part of, you know—it was kind of a tense time, with the Cold War. We were in secret locations and stuff like that. Hiltz Uh, what was the crew like? Rogers Crew was good. I mean, they were—they knew I was a short-timer, so they—they kidded me around a little bit, and—and—‘cause they knew. They called me the “rider.” You know, and they said, “You’re just in your rack all day. That’s all you do. You don’t do real work.” but they were kinda—they were in a kidding type of way, right? And I was called—they called me the “assistant engineer.” So I—I—I oversee some training lessons and did stuff like that for them, but I stood the watch. You know, on the submarine ship, you stand a watch, you’re—you’re good, because, uh, somebody else doesn’t have to stand the watch for diving officer. I did that. So, uh… Hiltz Uh, what was your time in Hawaii like? Rogers Oh, it was great. It was, uh, beautiful—the most beautiful places on Earth. It’s, uh—nice mountains, and the job was pretty stressful—getting the ships out—because, like I said, this is the height of the Cold War, and the ships came in. they had to get repaired in a certain window, Because there are only so many submarines out there. One comes in, and, uh, they only got coverage for a certain amount. So you gotta get that ship out on time, and if it’s not on time—not out on time, some people up high up don’t get too happy about that. So we gotta make sure that everything’s done timely and safely. So not only—and we just couldn’t—since it’s a nuclear submarine—First of all, nuclear submarines can be hazardous in themselves, and you got reactors on ‘em, and you gotta be extra special careful with respect to nuclear safety, and so sometimes, some things take a little longer than you might anticipate. So, uh, you always have that—you always have that bal—and I was in charge, so if the ship was late, it was on me. You know, I had to answer for it. So... Hiltz Uh, did, uh—did you ever have any incidents happen, during that time? Rogers Well, yeah. Um, I was on one submarine. When—when I was in the shipyard, we occasionally had to go out ride submarines when—after repairing them, and then one of the hydraulic plants went on fire. So it was a submarine underwater, and it was on fire, but the crew is so trained. It was like, “Okay. Fine.” Just like training—t was no different than when we had the training. We went over there, swoosh, they put it out, and then we—we went on to eat for lunch. So it was like okay. They were very seasoned, very seasoned crew. Um, the chiefs in the Navy—they really—I was an officer, but the chiefs in the Navy—they, you know—they run the show. They—they get the people to do the work, and so my admiration is for the chiefs, you know, [inaudible] folks. They’re—they’re the ones that make it happen, you know? We get the credit, most of the time. Sometimes, we get the blame, as the officers, but that’s kind of the way it is, but they’re the ones that—the enlisted guys—they’re the ones that[sic]—that[sic] make it work. So my father kind of sent me a lesson, when he said, “You’re gonna—you’re gonna be this hotshot officer, but you’re going to learn who does the work.” And I did. Hiltz Uh, do you have any, uh, moments that stand out, during your time in, um, Hawaii or Orlando? Rogers Um, well, one day, uh—well, I can say that, at the end, I—I—I made a suggestion to move the repair somewhere where it would be cheaper or a little more cost-effective, and—and still do it safely, and that—they—they actually listened to me and did it. So when I left—I don’t know how that went, but it wa—it did save some money. So that was—that was a good, good part of it, uh—good part of it, but a lot of that—I remember it was a lot of stress on that, but—but that was a good part of it, at—at—at—at the end there. So—and I would still dock ships, you know—dry docked ships that come into the shipyard, and a dry dock is: you—you—you bring a ship in, and to work on the hull of a ship, you can’t—can’t be in the water, right? So you—you put the ship on blocks, you drain the dry dock down, and then you go into the ship, and you do what you gotta do, back—and back up. Then you put the water back in, and then you float the ship out, but Putting the ship on blocks is a—a, you know—a very engineering-involved thing. So, as the docking officer, I had to do the calculations to make sure the ship would sit on the block right and stay there, and do all those calculations and stuff. Hiltz ‘Kay. Um, so, um, coming back now to, uh, your—your—how was your transition from being active duty to Reserve? Rogers Uh, not really—not really, um,—because I never had too many deployments, so I was always with my family. Like I said, I had a[sic] atypical career. I [inaudible] —I had it good, really. Um, so I didn’t have a lot—other than that one deployment, right? So when I went to Reserves, you know, I really was away from home more in the Reserves than when I was active duty, ‘cause I would have to drive to Orlando on—on the weekends, And then the two weeks a year, uh, I mean, again, I was with a lot of engineers. I had in my group, we had like PhDs, we had, you know, professional engineers. All highly, you know—highly educated people that[sic] worked for NASA [National Aeronautics and Space Administration], or worked for the [John F. Kennedy] Space Center, or whatever, and then they did the Reserves stuff, you know, on the side, ‘cause they were—they had this engineering background. So I didn’t find too much of a, uh—uh, a transition. I went from a kind of academic environment, uh, to that. Now, I had a little more experience than a lot of the Reserves, ‘cause I actually was a[sic], uh, active duty—engineering duty officer, and a lot of them just came in the Reserves. So I had a little—a little more experience actually being there. I had the qualifications for the Dolphins and stuff like that. So that helped me a little bit, you know, with getting my advancements, you know, as I—as I, you know, got promoted on. So I also had some good leaders that[sic]—that[sic] showed me the ropes in the Reserves. That—that really helped me. Hiltz Do you remember any of those? Rogers Oh, I do. I, uh—can I say their names? Hiltz Oh, yep. Rogers Or whatever? Hiltz Yeah. Rogers I remember one, uh—one key person that[sic] was a—was a, eh—he was a[sic] Admiral: Rear Admiral Steve Israel. He was, uh, a great mentor to me. Um, when I first came in the Reserves, he kinda took me under his wing, kinda showed me the—the life in the Reserves, and, uh—and we worked together. I worked within several of his units, when he was a—When I met him, he was a Commander, and then, as he went through, he became Captain, and then ultimately, he became—became an Admiral, and I still, you know, am still in contact with him, you know, to this day, but He was very, very—he was a [United States] Naval Academy graduate, very good about dealing with people, and stuff like that, and another person gr—Captain Jim Tully. I worked for him, and I took his Reserve unit when he—when he left that unit to go to another unit, I took over for him in, uh—in—for him, in that—in that capacity. So he always mentored me too, and he’s—he’s actually the Mayor of Titusville. Yeah. So [laughs]—but He’s great—he is one of the—one of the best leaders I’ve ever met, and one of the most, uh—most—talk about people—talk about people with integrity, and people in political office. Well, he’s got political office, and I don’t know anybody with more integrity than that man does have. He’s just amazing. So we still keep in touch. Yeah. So… Hiltz Do you, um—do you have any stories or memories from your—from your time in the—in the Reserves that stand out? Rogers Well, again, going back to the, you know—the enlisted people run the show. Uh, When I got—when I got command of my unit, I—I—I had a chief who was a Mensa [International]—high IQ [intelligence quotient] guy. Much smarter than I would ever be, and I asked his advice, you know, all the time, and that’s why my unit was so successful, and he helped me, give me advice on how to do things, and, you know, it went on from there. So I relied heavily on that. So I never—I never—I only made a couple of mistakes when I was a junior officer, thinking I knew it all, but that didn’t last out. Found out: the more senior I got, the less I thought I knew [laughs]. I knew more I had to rely on people that[sic] working[sic] for me. I mean, that’s the key to success. Um, and, uh—so—so that was very, very helpful. Hiltz Um, during—during the time in the Navy, um, did you, um—Um, what was—what was life like, um, in the [Ronald Wilson] Reagan years?<a title="">[2]</a> Rogers Oh, life was good. Reagan was president—in fact, I saw Reagan come in the airport in Hon—Honolulu[, Hawaii], and, uh, you know, I am a big Reagan fan. Uh, and, uh, ‘cause I, eh—we grew up to kinda get the Cold War—and one of the beautiful things was when I finally got into the Reserves, there—there—the war we were fighting, we really won it, because even though it wasn’t a hot war, the Soviet Union collapsed. We stood up to them and they’re gone. Now, they’re rattling their little sword again, but—but, at—at least at that time, they were—we—we won that. So, I mean, I liked the war. I felt like we had a strength in the nation for—for—for that, due to Reagan and the buildup—the buildup he did. I just kinda make the Russians<a title="">[3]</a>—“Well, we can’t keep up with this.” So… Hiltz Uh, how did the—the—in that case, how did the, uh—the breaking down of the Wall in Berlin[, Germany] make you feel? Rogers I thought it was great. I says[sic], “Wow. This is a great thing.” Because I grew up—when I grew up in the—in the [19]50s, the—the—I mean, I grew up during the Cuban Missile Crisis, and we thought we were going to World War III. I mean, it was right—right around the corner. I mean, my father was shaking and white ashen[?], ‘cause I looked at him—well, and I was only—what? I don’t know. 11—10 years old, or something like that, and—and it’s just like—he’s shaking white. Something—something’s going on here, and—and that was the closest we’ve—we’ve ever come, right? And, um—and there were some things—even during the Cold War, there were some things that happened, which we don’t want to go into, but, you know—but, for the most part, there was peace, right? So when the—when the [Berlin] Wall came down, Reagan said, “Tear down this wall,” and it happened. So that was—that was a good thing, and then, when, uh—I would never had believed it when it happened—they said the Soviet Union collapsed. It was like, Wow. Hiltz Um, in co—and in comparison, how are the [William “Bill” Jefferson] Clinton years in the Navy? Rogers Well, uh, Clinton—I mean, to a—see, Clinton was—he— ‘90s, uh, I got my senior—I think he signed my, uh—uh, my—my, uh—my promotion to Commander, and also he signed my discharge—my—my retirement paper, uh, in ’98, right? So—so I have some good—good, uh, Um, you know—He treated, you know, the military well too, you know? He was a smart, smart guy. Uh… Hiltz Um, how were your, uh, final years in the Navy, eh, eh—in the Navy Reserves? Rogers Good. Um, I mean, it was good. Uh, I was like—I had command of the unit, and then I was traveling so much back and forth, it was like, okay, you know? I was getting up for Captain, and I just decided that was time to, you know—time to—I didn’t make Captain the first pass. So I said, “Okay.” I had another chance, but I decided, you know, to get out. Um, so I decided just to—to go spend more time at my other job. Hiltz What was your other job, at that point? Rogers Oh, I worked at a nuclear power plant, teaching chemistry, physics. The same thing I did in Nuclear Power School, right? So—right. Hiltz So what was life like after the Navy? Rogers Well, it just went from teaching for the Navy and the submarine stuff and still have the resources—so it was really—To me, it wasn’t an abrupt end. It was a, uh, gradual transition over the years, ‘cause I was, uh, in active duty for eight years, Reserves for 12. So it was kind of a long—and then I—well, during the 12 years, I had my civilian job. So I—I kinda worked the two together, you know? Worked the two together. So—and As, you know, eh—as I went through my job, and I got more senior in the Navy, more senior in the Navy, and then got up there. I mean, Commander is pretty high up, I guess. So, you know… Hiltz Um, how did the Americans actually treat you, while you were in the Navy? Rogers The who? Hiltz The Americans. The civilians. Rogers The civilians? Oh, yeah. No problem. We didn’t have that Vietnam Syndrome, where, you know—where they—they spit on me or anything like that. Uh, I think today though—I mean, I think people are more appreciative of the military today, than they were even back when—when I was in there. I did used to do some recruiting for—for, uh, the Nuclear Power School, when I was at Nuclear Power School. I went out to the West Coast, and sometimes, I didn’t get a very friendly reception by the—the people on the campus at Washington University. Over there, they didn’t quite like my presence there. So—But I think today, I—I think the American people are more—are a lot more behind the troops. A lot more than compared to Vietnam [War] and even than when I was in. I think they realize what really they do for them. Hiltz Did you have any dealings with UCF at that time? Rogers I did actually. I, uh—I took a couple of classes here in 1982, when this campus was just a few buildings. So Industrial Chemistry, I took a few courses, because I was living in Orlando, and, you know, I just—I just did that. It didn’t end up in degree—I didn’t end up in a degree. I just have the classes. I think I have like 15 credits. Um, uh, Dr. [Gerald] Mattson—I think I had him, and I think he is still here, in the chemistry department. Um, so, uh—so I had that, and, you know, we were just kinda starting out. My wife was pregnant with our first child, and we—we came to UCF. She had to take an education course and sit in these little seats, you know, she could barely fit into it. It was kinda—we went together. She took a [inaudible] some education courses, and I did the chemistry stuff. So—so yeah. UCF is a little part of my time here. Hiltz Um, you mentioned your wife. Um, did you—you met her while you were in the Navy? Rogers Actually, I met my wife in Orlando, okay? Um, uh, when I was an instructor here, I worked with another instructor, and his wife worked at a school, and she knew somebody. So they set this up on a blind date, and, uh, I mean, that was it. We’re married for 34 years. Hiltz Fantastic. Um, did she go with you to, uh, Hawaii? Rogers Oh, yeah. You bet she did. Now, obviously—and, In fact, we were on the submarine. Um, they did a dependents’ cruise. Now, what a dependents cruise is: you can actually come on a submarine, right? They let the dependents come on the submarine. So she actually came on the submarine with her father, and we did, uh, some op[eration]s for them. We dove the ship, and surfaced the ship, and did all these things, and they got to eat. You know, so she comes in—she comes into the submarine. Now, on a submarine, you gotta understand: there’s a wardroom, just like this, and at the head of the table, there’s the Captain, and that’s the Captain’s chair. Nobody sits in the chair. So what does my wife do? She comes in and plops down right in the Captain’s chair, and I kinda say, “I don’t [inaudible] you need to sit there.” [laughs] So I rise her about that [inaudible], but she is probably one of the few ladies that[sic] were ever on a submarine—a nuclear submarine. Now, Of course, they are getting women into the program, but at that time, you know, she—she thought was kind of fun. So after being at sea for a little bit on the submarine, And then, I—she went off, and then shortly after that, I—I came back home. So that was—that kind of fun. Hiltz That’s fantastic. Um, um, how did the events of 9/11<a title="">[4]</a> effect you? Rogers Uh, I was pissed, right? I was really mad that we couldn’t—that something like that could happen here. Uh, and I don’t know. You can point fingers and blame, but, you know, I, eh—it—it’s just one of those things that we got to make sure it doesn’t happen again. Uh, it’s one of those—it ripped every American apart, you know, and—and including me. Now, I was actually retired already. Um, so I, um, was already done. Uh, I mean, I could have been called to active duty, but they didn’t. I’m too old already, I guess. So—so they didn’t bother, you know, calling me up, but, uh—so yeah. That was kind of… Hiltz Did you still have any, uh—were any of your friends still in the—in active… Roger Yeah, I think Captain Tully, that[sic] I talked to you about. I think he was still in at that time, and, uh, then he retired subsequently after that. So, um, yes. Hiltz Um, what was one of the most important lessons that you learned from the Navy? Rogers Uh, leadership. How to manage people and how to respect people, and just, of course, you just gotta—because you got all the stripes on doesn’t mean you know everything, and, I mean, that was the lesson my father tried to let me know before I went in there, and I did some stupid things. “Oh, I am in charge, because I’m an officer.” You know, I only did that once or twice, and then I remembered that I had better relying on the chiefs more, because they’re really the ones that really kinda know what’s going on [laughs]. So I did that. So a little humility’s a good thing. Hiltz Um, do you have any, uh, messages that you would like to tell the young people of America today? Rogers Uh, yeah, the military’s a great way to go, especially if you got some technological talent. Eh, you—that—that Navy instructor program is a great way to get in, serve your country four years. You don’t have to stay in. You can teach at the Nuclear Power School, you can teach [inaudible] people who are really willing to learn, and they have to be, and they are really good students, and you—you get to teach stuff, and you come away with some great teaching skills that, at the end of it—that you can—that you can use anywhere else, you know? So, you know, To this day, I could teach anybody off the street how—how a steam engine works and so they would understand it. So, I mean, it’s am—an amazing thing. So—so that’s—and don’t overlook that service. I mean, you know, my sons are likely not—not to go into it. I didn’t influence ‘em either way. One’s an engineer and one’s a—one’s a—a [inaudible] MBA [Master of Business Administration]. He’s got his MBA and he is a HR [human resources] manager over at Seaman’s[sp], so my sons are pretty successful, but I never influenced them to go one way or the other, but they’re proud of me that I did it. Like I said, I did not have the career that some of these guys out there. They really put their lives on the line, and I never really had to do that. I was never shot at, okay? Um, but I served my country the best I could, you know? But the guys that really—the guys that went into Iraq and Afghanistan, and it’s just amazing how they—they sacrificed—a lot of them—just so much: their lives, limbs, and everything else. It’s just—and—and—and did it, and they get—they get something—they get like their hand shot off, and they wanna go again, and go back and do it again. It’s just, you know—how do you—how do you instill that in our youth? That—that sense of duty. You know, it’s just a great, great thing. Not that they got hurt, but that they have this, uh—this dedication, and their patriotism for their country, and to do the right thing. Hiltz Um, uh, uh, um, what, um—How did you actually end up at UCF, after, um, your time in the Navy? Rogers [laughs] Well, I, um—a granddaughter comes into that. I was, uh—worked at the nuclear plant for 25 years. I—I retired from the Reserves in ’98, right? And in 2001, I went back to school again, got a Master’s degree—another Master’s degree—online, um, for—for, uh, education—online distance learning. So I did that for about—took me about four years to get it. I got that degree in 2006. Uh, and then finally, uh—Uh, what—what was your question again? Hiltz Oh, how did you end up at UCF? Rogers Oh, yeah. Okay. So I—I graduated—after 25 years, I, you know—I retired from—I retired from FPL [Florida Power & Light Company] and I got bored, okay? So when I got very bored, um, I decided to come back to work. So my granddaughter—we had a new granddaughter that[sic] lives down in, uh, Oviedo[, Florida], here. So they—I saw this job at UCF as a Safety Training Coordinator. When I’m training, it looks good to me. So I applied for that job. I got it, so we moved down here. So my wife’s a—a full-time grandma, babysitter type, you know—help out with the kid, and I—I come here. I like my job, I’m teaching, and I got something to do. I got a sense of purpose, other than sitting at home doing nothing. Hiltz Uh, what year did you guys, uh—did you come here? Rogers Uh, June 2013. So I haven’t been here that long. I’ve only been a UCF employee about a year and a half. Uh, you know, Two years it will be in June. So… Hiltz Well, congratulations. Rogers So… Hiltz [laughs] Um, is there anything else that, uh, we missed that you would like to talk about? Rogers No, I mean, I think you about hit all on the head. I mean, it’s all—in the military, it’s all about—it’s about duty, honor, country, leadership. I mean, everybody should kind of get that experience. Well, not for everybody. It’s not for everybody, and—and I don’t know if I would have gone in, if it weren’t for the nuclear program. I don’t think I would have enrolled to just go, you know, to drive a ship. I couldn’t have anyway, because of my—my color—they wouldn’t—they wouldn’t have accepted me in anyway, but because I had some academic potentials, they used me for that, right? So the Navy kinda used me for what talents I had, and—and so, you know, anybody can do that. Yeah. So it’s a great thing. My thanks is for all the people that[sic] have gone on, and—and help, and, today, that[sic] continue to serve. Hiltz Well, uh, thank you for your time. Uh, and thank you, um, on behalf of UCF and myself, for answering our, um… Rogers Yeah[?]. Hiltz For answering our questions and having this, uh, wonderful interview. Rogers Alright. Well, thank you very much. I appreciate your—your interview. Hiltz Thank you. Rogers Thank you. <div> <div> <a title="">[1]</a> Doctorate degree. </div> <div> <a title="">[2]</a> January 20, 1981 - January 20, 1989. </div> <div> <a title="">[3]</a> Correction: Soviets. </div> <div> <a title="">[4]</a> September 11th, 2001. </div> </div> 9/11 advanced training American Chemical Society Bennett Drive Berlin Wall Berlin, Germany Bill Clinton Bronx, New York City, New York Caribbean Crisis cold war colleges colorblindness Commander commissioned officers Community Veterans History Project Cuba Cuban Missile Crisis CVHP dependents' cruises deterrent patrols dry docks education educators Engineering Duty Officer Engineering Duty Officer Dolphin Program Engineering Duty Officer Dolphins Engineering Duty Officer School Father of the Nuclear Navy firefighting fires Florida Power & Light Company FPL Gerald Mattson Germany Hyman G. Rickover Hyman George Rickover Indiana University instructors Jensen Beach Jim Tully Killian Hiltz Lehman College mayors military education military spouses military training military wife military wives Nathan Hale nuclear power Nuclear Power Ballistic Missile Submarines nuclear power plants Nuclear Power School nuclear safety Nuclear Ship Superintendent School October Crisis Officer Indoctrination School OIS orlando Pearl Harbor, Hawaii Philip Rogers presidents Restricted Line Officer Ronald Reagan Ronald Wilson Reagan Safety Training Coordinator September 11th South Florida Soviet Union Soviets SSBN Steve Israel SU Submarine School submarines subs teachers terrorism terrorists The Missile Scare training U.S. Naval Reserve U.S. Navy UCF Union of Soviet Socialist Republics universities university University of Central Florida USS Nathan Hale USSR veterans Washington, D.C. William Jefferson Blythe III William Jefferson Clinton https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka/files/original/215158d1b22ce578f3eea62eb6612695.pdf d1fd24fc12b62f5a10c38f2dbcff6115 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title UCF Community Veterans History Project Collection Description As part of RICHES of Central Florida, UCF intends to record, archive, and make accessible oral history interviews of Central Florida veterans. Diversity is a main focus for this project since there are many different subgroups under the group veterans, all with important stories. While the histories will be largely archived and made available through the UCF library, a portion will be contributed to the ongoing Veterans History Project based out of the Library of Congress. Contributor <a href="http://library.ucf.edu/about/departments/special-collections-university-archives/" target="_blank">Special Collections and University Archives</a>, University of Central Florida Libraries, University of Central Florida Alternative Title CVHP Collection Subject Veterans--Florida United States. Army Army United States. Navy Navy United States. Air Force Air Force United States. Marine Corps Marine Corps Is Part Of <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>. Language eng Type Collection Coverage Jacksonville, Florida Orlando, Florida Honolulu, Hawaii Pearl Harbor, Hawaii Great Lakes, Illinois Long Island, New York Newport, Rhode Island Norfolk, Virginia Germany Qaasuitsup, Greenland Keflavik, Southern Peninsula, Iceland Azores Islands, Portugal Mediterranean Sea Contributing Project <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a> Curator Cepero, Laura Digital Collection <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a> Source Repository <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida External Reference "<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">About the Project</a>." UCF Community Veterans History Project, RICHES of Central Florida, University of Central Florida. http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/. Has Part <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/109" target="_blank">Lone Sailor Navy Memorial History Project Collection</a>, UCF Community Veterans History Project, RICHES of Central Florida. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer Grossi, Jared Interviewee Holtz, Alan R. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title Oral History of Alan R. Holtz Alternative Title Oral History, Holtz Subject Veterans--Florida Navy Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Operation Desert Shield, 1990-1991 Operation Desert Storm, 1991 Persian Gulf War, 1991 Iraq War Description An oral history interview of Alan R. Holtz, who served in the U.S. Navy, during the Vietnam War, Operation Desert Shield, and Operation Desert Storm. Born in the Brooklyn borough of New York City, New York, Holtz enlisted in the Navy during the Vietnam War. He later joined the U.S. Naval Reserve and helped mobilize Reservists during the Persian Gulf War in 1991. This oral history interview was conducted by Jared Grossi on November 13, 2014. Interview topics include enlistment, boot camp, the USS Hancock, the Vietnam War, the Naval Reserves, Operation Desert Shield, and Operation Desert Storm. Table Of Contents 0:00:00 Introduction 0:00:33 Background 0:01:45 Enlistment 0:02:50 Boot camp and USS Hancock 0:05:55 Vietnam War 0:09:22 Naval Reserves and going back to school 0:10:23 Liberty and awards 0:12:48 Operation Desert Shield and Operation Desert Storm 0:14:43 Off-duty activities 0:16:07 Keeping in contact with other sailors, injuries, and September 11th 0:17:31 Civilian life 0:18:55 Lessons learned from the Navy 0:19:20 Closing remarks Abstract Oral history interview of Alan R. Holtz. Interview conducted by Jared Grossi in Orlando, Florida, on November 13, 2014. Type Moving Image Source <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/502/rec/1" target="_blank">Holtz, Alan R.</a>. Interviewed by Jared Grossi, November 13, 2014. Audio/video record available. Item DP0016189, UCF Community Veterans History Project, Special Collections and University Archives, University of Central Florida Libraries, Orlando, Florida. Requires <a href="http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/" target="_blank">Adobe Flash Player</a> <a href="http://java.com/en/download/index.jsp" target="_blank">Java</a> <a href="https://get.adobe.com/reader/" target="_blank">Adobe Acrobat Reader</a> Is Part Of <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, Orlando, Florida. <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/24" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project Collection</a>, RICHES of Central Florida. Has Format 13-page digital transcript of original 21-minute and 27-second oral history: <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/502/rec/1" target="_blank">Holtz, Alan R.</a>. Interviewed by Jared Grossi, November 13, 2014. Audio/video record available. Item DP0016189, UCF Community Veterans History Project, Special Collections and University Archives, University of Central Florida Libraries, Orlando, Florida. Conforms To Standards established by the <a href="http://www.loc.gov/vets/" target="_blank">Veterans History Projects</a>, Library of Congress. Coverage Brooklyn, New York City, New York Vietnam Philippines Creator Holtz, Alan R. Grossi, Jared Publisher <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a> Date Created 2014-11-13 Date Issued 2015-02 Date Copyrighted 2014-11-13 Format application/website application/pdf Extent 432 MB 164 KB Medium 21-minute and 27-second Digital (DAT) audio/video recording 13-page digital transcript Language eng Mediator History Teacher Civics/Government Teacher Geography Teacher Provenance Originally created by Jared Grossi and Alan R. Holtz. Rights Holder <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a> Accrual Method Item Creation Contributing Project <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a> Curator Cepero, Laura Digital Collection <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a> External Reference Herring, George C. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/5126110" target="_blank">America's Longest War: The United States and Vietnam, 1950-1975</a>. New York: Wiley, 1979. Matthews, Eamonn, Ben Loeterman, and Will Lyman. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/34145115" target="_blank">The Gulf War</a>. Alexandria, VA: PBS Video, 1996. Anderson, Michael G. <a href="/www.worldcat.org/oclc/27694401" target="_blank">The Air Force Rapid Response Process: Streamlined Acquisition During Operations Desert Shield and Desert Storm: Project Air Force Analysis of the Air War in the Gulf</a>. Santa Monica, CA: Rand Corp, 1992. Click to View (Movie, Podcast, or Website) <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/502/rec/1" target="_blank">Holtz, Alan R.</a> Transcript Holtz Three. Grossi Today, it is November 11th, 2014. I am interviewing Alan [R.] Holtz, who served in the Navy. He served in Vietnam [War] and helped mobilize Naval Reservists during Operation Devert[sic]—Desert Shield, and Operation Desert Storm. He completed his service as an E[nlisted]-6 rank. My name is Jared Grossi. We are interviewing Mr. Holtz as part of the UCF Community Veterans History Project. We are recording this interview at—in Orlando, Florida. Grossi Alright. So Mr. Holtz… Holtz Yes? Grossi Where were you born? Holtz I was born in Brooklyn[, New York City], New York. Grossi Okay. What was your childhood like? Holtz My childhood? It was very good. I, uh—my parents were very, very good. I had three brothers. We had a great time. I really had a good childhood. I liked it. Grossi You, uh—are you the oldest of the brothers? Holtz No, I’m the second. I have one older brother and the rest are younger than me. Grossi Okay. Um, what did your parents do for a living? Holtz Uh, my father was in the Army during World War II, but then he was—but then he, uh—he worked for a packaging company, I believe, in—in Brooklyn. Grossi Okay. Holtz And my mom, uh, stayed home and raised us four kids. I don’t think she worked outside though. Grossi Alright. Um, did—Other than your father, did anyone else enlist before you? Holtz Uh, my father I had a couple of uncles that were in during World War II, and that’s it. My brother tried to enlist in the Air Force, and I think his vision wasn’t good, so he didn’t—he didn’t make it. Grossi Okay. Um, what type of education did receive before your service? Holtz Uh, right—right out of high school, I enlisted. Grossi How old were you when you enlisted? I mean, you said it was after high school. Holtz Yeah, 18. Grossi Okay. Um, what caused you to enlist? Holtz Uh, it’s kind of a long story. They had the draft at that time, and people were being drafted into the Vietnam War, and it was, uh, sort of a lottery system, where would they tell you your number and you had a better chance of getting drafted, so I had a pretty good chance that I was going to be drafted. So to get a better choice of where you want to go, I enlisted. Grossi Okay. What did your family think of your enlistment? Holtz Uh, they—they were happy about it. Like I said, my uncle was in the Navy and said it was the best one of the services, even though my father was in the Army. So they were happy about it. Grossi Okay. Uh, what was, uh, boot camp like in the Navy? Holtz Boot camp—it was—it was very tough for me, because it was the first time I was like away from home, alone there, and not, you know—scared what was going happen, but I ended up doing good[sic], ‘cause I had, uh—I was in pretty good shape. So the physical stuff wasn’t that hard for me, so I—I did good[sic]. Grossi Alright. Um, where were you stationed after completing your training? Holtz Uh, after—after boot camp, I went to training in San Diego, California, and the first place I was stationed was onboard an aircraft carrier, U—USS Hancock Grossi Okay. Uh, what was your experience when you first arrived where you were stationed? Holtz When I first arrived, it was—it was just very different than anything that I had seen before. Nev—I’d never been on a ship, and it was really big. Um, lot of people. You have to live in, uh—sleeping on a little bunk in a room with a lot of other people. So it was—it was hard to get used to. Grossi Um, what was your instructor like? Holtz In—in boot camp, you mean? Grossi Uh, yes. Holtz Uh, he, eh—He was good. You—first you get there, and you’re scared, and you’re—hate them and everything, but you get used to it. Then once you graduate, you appreciate what he did, you know, what he taught you, and everything. Grossi So you mentioned living on the carrier. What was, uh, the Navy life like? Holtz Well, I—I liked it. Once you get out of boot camp, you realize it’s more like a job and it’s not all going to be like you were—like it was in boot camp. So you, uh—you get used to it pretty fast. It was good. It was fun. Some of it. Grossi Alright. Um, was there any—what was not fun about it? Holtz What was not fun was the hours. You work a lot of hours, a lot of hard work, and, uh, the thing I got trained for was, uh, personnel, which is human resources. So when you work in human resources and in an office, they—the other people on the ship don’t think you’re doing anything, ‘cause you’re not out there manning the guns, or steering the ship, or anything important. Your, uh—you know, according to them. So you get volun—you get volunteered to do other work to help other departments. So it’s—it’s a lot of work, a lot of hours. Grossi Alright. So what were some of your other duties then? Holtz Uh, I worked in the—in the laundry, pressing uniforms and stuff, and, um, just, uh, security watches and stuff, go—security. Guard duty is called “watches” in the Navy. Grossi Um, what were the watches like? Holtz Uh, you get different hours, like you’d have f—a four-hour period, where you just, you know, stand guard over something or, you know, security of the ship. Grossi Alright. Uh, what was your assignment during the Vietnam War? Holtz Uh, I was in the personnel office on the aircraft carrier, and I was, uh, in support of an air squadron, where they—the, uh, pilots would fly off the carrier and do whatever they had to do over there, and just their support, like their—make sure their pay, their paper work got done, you know, transfers, retirements, whatever they had to do. All the office work. Grossi Okay. Um, tell me about your, um, Western Pacific [Ocean] and your Mediterranean [Sea] cruise? Holtz That, uh—well, the Western Pacific was while I was on the aircraft carrier, and where they would go off the coast of Vietnam for a while, and then after that, they would go into different ports. So I got to see a lot of the world over there. It was—it was really good. The Philippines was my favorite place. Grossi Oh, what made it your favorite place? Holtz Uh, just that the people are very—they’re very friendly. They’re very nice. They—they support, you know—they supported the military. Met a lot of nice people there, and also the, uh, beaches, mountains, everything—just a beautiful place to relax, after being out at sea for a long time. Grossi Okay. What was the typical day like during this period? Holtz A typical day? Uh, like I said, there’s—there’s[sic] long hours, and your—Besides the regular office hours, which is—they try to make it eight to five, but then you’re on call and other things come up, so you end up staying there a lot longer or being called in the middle of the night, and then, if you had one of those, uh, watches or some other duties you had to do that—they don’t take the hours away from your regular office work. You still have to be there. So some days you’d be working without any sleep. Grossi What was the food like? Holtz The food was—was actually good. I know people complain about it, but it was—it was good. You had a lot of choices. You got—you don’t have that much time to eat sometimes, but the—the food was really good. They did a—they did a good job. Grossi Um, what would you do to entertain yourself at times? Holtz Uh, they had different activities, and s—you know, sports. ‘cause we would like—‘cause when I’m on an aircraft carrier that has a big flight deck, so during the times that they’re not, uh, landing and taking off aircraft, they’re—use it for sports, games, and they had movies, and they—we would get our mail stuff, and they didn’t have the Internet back then, but… Grossi [laughs]. Holtz We could make phone calls and send messages. Grossi Okay. Did the Navy change after the Vietnam War? Holtz Uh, it cha—Yeah. It changed a lot. A lot of things changed. Grossi Could you tell me about some of the changes? Holtz Uh, well, see, it seemed during the war, they were more relaxed about, you know, haircuts, uniforms, A lot of things. Uh, even—even drug use was pretty prevalent during the Vietnam War, and they didn’t—seemed like they really cared that much, and it went from that to the zero tolerance policy pretty quickly. You know, I guess they realized it was getting quite out of hand [laughs]. Grossi [laughs] Um, tell me about the Naval Reserves. Holtz They—well, after— after my first four years, I got out for a few months. was going back to school, but then I decided to go back in and I went into the—it was called Training and Administration of the Reserves program, Where I’d work at Reserve centers and air stations, just training—training Reserves, and supporting them, doing there paper work, and keeping records and things. Grossi Alright. You said you went back to school. Um, what’d you go back to school for? Holtz Uh, I—I went back to get an AA [Associate of Arts] degree, which I did, you know, start. When I got out, I started going full-time, but then I went back in the military and went just part-time ‘til I finished then. Grossi Alright, and then you said you wound up going back in? Um… Holtz Yeah. Grossi Why’d you decide to do that? Holtz Well, I got married, and then I was going to have a kid. So I thought that would be—I thought that would be a good, uh—good career to have, since I liked it a lot for the first four years. So I decided to go back in and make a career out of it. Grossi Okay. Um, what was your job in the Reserves? Holtz Um, tt was still office work. It was, um, personnel, but, uh, helping with the training of Reserves. Like the Reserves that would come in one weekend a month, and they’d get trained. The—the person—the administrative ones—I would help train them, and also keep all there records and everything for all the Reserves. You know, transfers, retirements, promotions. Everything they do. Grossi Okay. Um, how did moving up through the ranks change your responsibilities? Holtz Uh, it changed a lot. You get a lot more responsibility pretty quick[sic] from when you first go in and just—I made it all the way up to E6, which is, uh, supervisor. So it’s a lot of responsibility, because you have a lot of other people to worry about and make sure there doing their job as well. Grossi Okay. Uh, what was one of your most memoral[sic]—memorable days throughout your service in your career—in the serving career? Holtz Uh, most memorable days? Uh, I guess, uh, being on a ship and traveling. You know, any one of those days, when you’re—you know, you work hard, but then when you finally get into a port, they give you a lot of time off to do what you want and relax, and I like that part of traveling. Seeing new places. Grossi Traveling must have been fun. Um, what were some of the things you do when you um, would dock at ports? Holtz Uh, they would have—they would have tours available, you know, they’re trying to encourage you not to just go out to bars, like some people did. Um, so I didn’t do too much of that. I went on a lot of the bus tours and they had events scheduled for us. Like you could go help, uh, different charity events, go help, like—I remember one time, we painted a church or helped this, uh, shelter for people. A lot of things like that, where you can help the community too. They didn’t want us to just go out there and have fun and leave [laughs]. Grossi [laughs] Um, did your receive any awards? Holtz Yeah, I’ve got a lot of—a lot of different medals and awards for different things. I don’t even remember them all. Grossi How did you help exactly in Operation Desert Storm and [Operation Desert] Shield? Holtz Uh, well, that—at that time, I was at a Reserve center, and they mobilized some of the Reserve units to send them over there to—to, uh, well, fight, or set up things, whatever, and so we were—when you’re in the Reserves, they have these drills all the time about mobilizing the Reserves and calling them into active duty, and you think it’s never going to really happen, but that was the real thing. We had to mobilize them—and I think it was about three hundred people from our Reserve units—and get them ready, get them there orders, paper work and everything, and travel arrangements, and send them over there. Grossi Alright. You said there was[sic], uh, drills and you actually wound up having to do them. Um, did the drills you feel help? Or was the actual event… Holtz Uh, the actual event’s a lot different than—it—it helped—it—the drills helped you prepare for it, but then when it actually happens, they—there isn’t time to actually to do it—there wasn’t time to actually do it step-by-step the way you plan. You know, Set up the incoming—set up the tables, set up the—what forms they’re going to need. So it—it worked out a lot different than you planned, but you still got it done. Grossi Okay. Um, did your experience in Desert Storm and Shield differ from Vietnam? Holtz Uh, yeah. It was a lot different, ‘cause I was just at the Reserve center, and—and preparing these other people to go where I—I—In Vietnam War, I was actually on the ship, right off the coast there, and even though I was working the office, I was more, you know—closer to the action that was going on, supporting the people, but, uh, for that for that—for that operation, I was just at the Reserve center, and getting them ready to go there. So it seemed like it was further from the actual thing. Grossi Okay. Um, what kind of activities did you do while off duty? Um, I know you mentioned you—you’d go on tour and stuff… Holtz Yeah. Grossi During the dockings. Um, was it just—I mean, uh—I guess when you’re off duty, what did you do? Holtz Oh, just—well, if I’m in a different—At the Reserve center or at the… Grossi Uh, I—just In general Holtz Well, if you’re… Grossi When you were off duty. Holtz Well, when it—when it—it’s different when you’re off duty overseas. I would just, you know, travel, see, you know—See what I could find, enjoy the scenery and new places, but once I was at Reserves center, Reserves center is in the—in that program, I was back home. So I was married and had kids. So I was just doing normal, you know—normal daily life, and it was more like a regular job, than when you’re on a ship. Grossi Did you visit back home often? Holtz Yeah, I would. Yeah, my parents were still in New York most of that time, so I would—I would fly home whenever I could. Get vacation. They gave you a lot of time off in the military, when—when they can. Grossi Um, when you were back home, what did you do for work or just entertainment then? Holtz Oh, spend time with my parents and my brothers, and visiting, mostly. Grossi Um, did you still keep in contact with any of your friends you made in the Navy? Holtz Uh, I did for a while, but it was hard to do that, ‘cause so many people get transferred, and you don’t see them again, and—So I lost track of a lot of them, but there was a few that I—that I still kept in contract[sic] —contact with. Grossi Okay. Um, could you tell me about some of the injuries you received? Holtz Well, first injury—first injury I got—when I was working on that aircraft carrier, I worked in the laundry, and pressed my hand down on… Grossi Oh. Holtz On the steam press. So that’s how I got that injury. So I call it my “Vietnam War injury,” but not really. It was on the aircraft carrier, working in the laundry, and got—got that hand burned, and some other things: I just hurt my back while I was there, so— but nothing too serious. I’m still able to work. Grossi Okay. How did, uh, the events of 9/11<a title="">[1]</a> affect you? Holtz How did it affect me? I was—I remember being very angry when it—when it happened, and wishing I was back in the military, so I could go do something about it, you know? Help fight whoever was doing it. Grossi How was the transition from the Navy life into the civilian life? Holtz Uh, it was very hard, at first, to—when you’re looking for a job, and you try to relate what you did in the military to civilian job. So you work in an office and, you know, you find out that all you’re qualified to do is be a secretary, or something like that. So actually, I was, uh, a medical services secretary, when I first got out. That was the first job they had at, uh, Humana[, Inc.] health care. Grossi Okay. Um, how—how has the civilian life affected you? Holtz Oh, well—well, I got used to it pretty quickly, and I had other jobs since then, and then finally found UCF [University of Central Florida], which I like. Grossi Okay. How have the—the way the civilians treated you over the years—how has that been? Holtz It’s—it’s been good, mostly. Most people—most people, you know, they appreciate what you did. they—there’s, you know, this preference for veterans, and a lot of jobs that you go for, you know—to at least get you the interview to see if you’re qualified to get the job, but, uh, most people treat you—treat you good[sic]. I never had anybody who didn’t. Grossi What lessons, from your time in the Navy, do you consider valuable? Holtz Uh, I think I learned a lot about working, do, uh—doing the best job that you can, getting it—trying to get everything done, so you can enjoy your time off, and, uh, doing a good job working with other people—Team work. A lot—a lot of things you learn there, you know, still relates to whatever job you have outside. Grossi Do you have any, uh, unusual or funny stories in your time of the service? Holtz Um, no, not really [laughs]—not really that I can think of. I’m sure there were some. Grossi Um… Holtz Well, now, there’s some unusual things when I was working at the Reserve centers. There sometimes—sometimes, they’re the only military in the area. So they’ve let you—make you volunteer for a lot of different things, like security and different things that you don’t need security for. They just wanted the local military to be there, and doing funerals, and things that I didn’t like to do. Grossi Okay. Um, is there anything else we missed or you would like to talk about? Holtz Um, no, not—not really. Not that I can think of. Grossi Alright. Uh, do you have any messages or lessons you’d like to pass on to the young—the young people? Holtz Oh, about the military? Just that it—it is a good career. Uh, the benefits are great, now that I’m retired. I did—I did, you know, 20 years. Now that I’m retired, it’s really worth it to, uh—the benefit you get, through retirement, the medical care, everything. So it’s worth it. Grossi Alright. Uh, questions? Unidentified [inaudible]. Grossi Okay. Um, well, I’d like to thank you, Mr. Holtz, for your time. I and the UCF community really appreciate you coming out today and telling your story, Um, in the—in the short time in the interview [laughs]. Thank you. Holtz Okay. Unidentified [inaudible]. Holtz Thank you. <div> <div> <a title="">[1]</a> September 11th, 2001. </div> </div> 1st Gulf War 1st Iraq War 9/11 aircraft carrier aircraft carriers Alan R. Holtz basic training boot camp boot camps Brooklyn, New York City, New York Community Veterans History Project conscription CVHP Democratic Republic of Vietnam Desert Shield Desert Storm drafts E-6 education Enlisted Rank 6 enlistment First Gulf War First Iraq War Gulf War Hancock instructors Iraq War Jared Grossi Kuwait War liberties liberty military education military training naval instructors North Vietnam Operation Desert Shield Operation Desert Storm Persian Gulf War Philippines Republic of the Philippines Republic of Vietnam San Diego, California selective service September 11th Socialist Republic of Vietnam South Vietnam TAR terrorism terrorists training Training and Administration of the Reserve U.S. Naval Reserve U.S. Navy USS Hancock veterans Vietnam Vietnam War watch watches https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka/files/original/23cee619e48419169ea1f645a27a566f.pdf b7a6d7466583d7bbf2c25d4c15fc488b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title UCF Community Veterans History Project Collection Description As part of RICHES of Central Florida, UCF intends to record, archive, and make accessible oral history interviews of Central Florida veterans. Diversity is a main focus for this project since there are many different subgroups under the group veterans, all with important stories. While the histories will be largely archived and made available through the UCF library, a portion will be contributed to the ongoing Veterans History Project based out of the Library of Congress. Contributor <a href="http://library.ucf.edu/about/departments/special-collections-university-archives/" target="_blank">Special Collections and University Archives</a>, University of Central Florida Libraries, University of Central Florida Alternative Title CVHP Collection Subject Veterans--Florida United States. Army Army United States. Navy Navy United States. Air Force Air Force United States. Marine Corps Marine Corps Is Part Of <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>. Language eng Type Collection Coverage Jacksonville, Florida Orlando, Florida Honolulu, Hawaii Pearl Harbor, Hawaii Great Lakes, Illinois Long Island, New York Newport, Rhode Island Norfolk, Virginia Germany Qaasuitsup, Greenland Keflavik, Southern Peninsula, Iceland Azores Islands, Portugal Mediterranean Sea Contributing Project <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a> Curator Cepero, Laura Digital Collection <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a> Source Repository <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida External Reference "<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">About the Project</a>." UCF Community Veterans History Project, RICHES of Central Florida, University of Central Florida. http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/. Has Part <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/109" target="_blank">Lone Sailor Navy Memorial History Project Collection</a>, UCF Community Veterans History Project, RICHES of Central Florida. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer Ennis, Marc Interviewee Hazen, Kendra Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title Oral History of Marc Ennis Alternative Title Oral History, Ennis Subject Veterans--Florida Orlando (Fla.) Navy Simulation Description An oral history interview of Marc Ennis, who joined the U.S. Navy in December of 1990 and attended Recruit Training Center Orlando (RTC Orlando) for boot camp at age 17. After boot camp, he attended Electronic Warfare training at Corry Station Naval Technical Training Center in Pensacola, Florida, and reported to his first ship, USS Gunston Hall, at Little Creek, Virginia. After three and a half years, Ennis trained at aircrew school in Pensacola and then Millington, Tennessee, to become an Aviation Warfare Sensor Operator and rescue swimmer for Sikorsky SH-60/MH-60 Seahawk helicopters. He also joined the fleet replacement squadron aircrew for Helicopter Squadron 1 in Jacksonville, and then reported to his first fleet squadron, Helicopter Squadron 5 (HS-5), also in Jacksonville. After completing his service for HS-5, Ennis reported to the helicopter wing as an instructor. After three years instructing, he transferred to Naval Air Facility Atsugi in Yamato and Ayase, Japan, for sea duty with Helicopter Squadron 14. This interview was conducted by Kendra Hazen and includes topics such as Ennis' background and family, RTC Orlando, his Navy life after training, Naval Air Warfare Center Training Systems Division (NAWCTSD), and the simulation industry in Central Florida. Table Of Contents 0:00:00 Introduction 0:02:40 Family service members 0:04:12 Recruit Training Center Orlando (RTC Orlando) 0:08:08 Daily life at RTC 0:13:05 Classes and training 0:19:08 Social life 0:22:14 Co-educational training and Competition Week 0:24:18 Instructors 0:25:57 Marching and proudest moments 0:29:03 The Grinder and the USS Blue Jacket 0:33:54 Graduation 0:36:14 Navy career after RTC Orlando 0:42:49 Assignment with the Naval Air Warfare Center Training Systems Division (NAWCTSD) in Orlando 0:46:29 Simulation at NAWCTSD 0:53:22 Future of the simulation industry in Central Florida 0:56:03 Most valuable lessons learned in Navy 0:58:58 Photographs 1:03:31 Closing remarks Abstract Oral history interview of Marc Ennis Interview conducted by Kendra Hazen on February 22, 2014. Type Moving Image Source <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/273/rec/1" target="_blank">Ennis, Marc</a>. Interviewed by Kendra Hazen, February 22, 2014. Audio/video record available. Item DP0014894, UCF Community Veterans History Project, Special Collections and University Archives, University of Central Florida Libraries, Orlando, Florida. Requires <a href="http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/" target="_blank">Adobe Flash Player</a> <a href="http://java.com/en/download/index.jsp" target="_blank">Java</a> <a href="https://get.adobe.com/reader/" target="_blank">Adobe Acrobat Reader</a> Is Part Of <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, Orlando, Florida. <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/24" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project Collection</a>, RICHES of Central Florida. Has Format Digital transcript of original 1- hour and 47-second oral history: <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/273/rec/1" target="_blank">Ennis, Marc</a>. Interviewed by Kendra Hazen, February 22, 2014. Audio/video record available. Item DP0014894, UCF Community Veterans History Project, Special Collections and University Archives, University of Central Florida Libraries, Orlando, Florida. Conforms To Standards established by the <a href="http://www.loc.gov/vets/" target="_blank">Veterans History Projects</a>, Library of Congress. Coverage Recruit Training Center, Orlando, Florida Corry Station Naval Technical Training Center, Pensacola, Florida Jacksonville, Florida Naval Air Facility Atsugi, Yamato-Ayase, Japan Creator Ennis, Marc Hazen, Kendra Publisher <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a> Date Created 2014-02-22 Date Issued 2014-09 Date Copyrighted 2014-02-22 Format application/website application/pdf Extent 55.6 MB 263 KB Medium 1- hour and 47-second Hi8 CD/DVD 30-page digital transcript Language eng Mediator History Teacher Civics/Government Teacher Geography Teacher Provenance Originally created by Kendra Hazen and Marc Ennis. Rights Holder <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a> Accrual Method Item Creation Contributing Project <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a> Curator Cepero, Laura Digital Collection <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a> External Reference "<a href="http://cfnavyleague.org/lone-sailor/" target="_blank">The History</a>." Lone Sailor Navy Memorial History Project. http://cfnavyleague.org/lone-sailor/ "<a href="http://rtcorlando.homestead.com/" target="_blank">The History</a>." RTC Orlando. http://rtcorlando.homestead.com/. <a href="http://www.lonesailorfl.com/" target="_blank">A Guide to Historic Orlando</a>. Charleston, SC: History Press, 2006. Click to View (Movie, Podcast, or Website) <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/273/rec/1" target="_blank">Oral History of Marc Ennis</a> Transcript Hazen Cool. Ennis Cool. Hazen Alright. I get to be fancy at the beginning. Ennis There you go. Hazen So just so you know. Alright. Today is Wednesday, February 26th, 2014. I am interviewing Marc Ennis, who served in the U.S. Navy. Mr. Ennis attended recruit training at RTC Orlando and after 21 years of service returned to Orlando to work at NAWCTSD [Naval Air Warfare Center Training Systems Division]. My name is Kendra Hazen and I am interviewing Mr. Ennis as a part of the UCF [University of Central Florida] Veterans History Project and as research for the creation of the Lone Sailor Memorial Project. We are recording this interview in Colburn Hall at UCF in Orlando, Florida. Mr. Ennis, will you please start us off by telling us when and where you were born. Ennis I was born in Port Hueneme, California. February 9th, 1973. Hazen And what did your parents do for a living? Ennis Uh, my dad was actually in the Navy, but when we were born he had, uh, just retired. So, uh, my only recollect—recollection of the Navy was, uh, living near it, and, uh, he actually worked for the State of California, uh, for the, uh, gas company, and, uh, my mom was a stay at home mom, uh—didn’t work. I mean, she worked, [laughs] but in the—in the home. Hazen Did you have any brothers and sisters? Ennis I have, uh, three brothers. Uh, I’m a twin. A fraternal twin, right? Hazen Okay. Ennis And, uh, two older brothers, One of which is, uh, still in the Navy up in Jacksonville, and my—the—the oldest brother—he’s in, uh, Pensacola. Hazen What did you do before entering the Navy? Ennis So, uh, I was a student, and, uh, actually I, uh, graduated high school and, uh, joined the Navy, uh, that summer. So… Hazen The summer of what? What year? Ennis Uh, well, I guess it was the summer of [19]89. So I actually graduated, uh, during the summer of my junior year. So I never attended my senior year, and, uh—so I had enough credits, so I just joined the Navy. Hazen Oh, so why did you join the Navy? Ennis Yeah. There was a couple different factors, but I was getting married and had a baby on the way, and, uh, that’s what really started everything off. Hazen And was there a reason why you chose the Navy opposed to any of the other branches of service? Ennis o, I guess it was, uh, because of my father, but for the most part it was, uh—didn’t really think about any of the, uh—the other services. So yeah. Hazen Did, um—besides your dad, was there anyone else in your family who served in the Navy? Ennis Um, yeah. So we, uh—since my dad moved around a bunch before I was born, uh, we didn’t have a lot of family, but my uncle on my mother’s side, he was in the Navy, and then my, um—my wife’s grandfather was, uh, also in the Navy back, um—uh, I mean it was a pretty long time ago. Back in the ‘40s-50s. Uh, but that didn’t really, um, you know, make my decision to join, I guess. Now, as I think about it, and in fact, my mom was in the Navy too which is pretty unique. She was a WAVE [Women's Auxiliary Army Corps], and when they—when my mom and dad first met, uh, they were both in the Navy, right? Hazen What’s a WAVE? Ennis It’s a, um—it’s a Woman Active—I’ll have to look the acronym up, but it’s basically a, uh—um, a woman, uh, sailor that was doing administrative duties, but they were still part of—they were very vital to the war and everything. Uh, but she was yeoman… Hazen Mmhmm. Ennis Which is a clerical type person, and, uh, but she was actually modeled on a three cent stamp—her and three other women. Hazen Hm. Ennis Yeah, that’s uh—I’ll send that to you—the details on that, but that’s pretty cool. Hazen Yeah, thank you. Um, how did your family feel about you joining the Navy? Ennis So, uh—no—no real, uh, heartache, and no real like, “Hey. that’s great.” Just kind of indifferent. Hazen Um, and where did you attend boot camp? Ennis So I attended boot camp here in Orlando, and I was living in Pensacola, Florida, when I joined. Actually it was Gulf Breeze, Florida, but... Hazen It was called Freeze, Florida? Ennis Gulf—Gulf Breeze. Hazen Gulf Breeze. What was called Gulf Breeze? Ennis It was the city. Hazen Oh, okay. Ennis So it wasn’t Pensacola, but—yeah. Hazen Gotcha. Um, and you said you began your training at RTC [Recruit Training Center] Orlando after graduating? Ennis Right. So I, uh—there was a couple of months, uh—so I graduated that summer. I guess it was maybe August-September. You know, I took the final class of summer school, got the paperwork signed off, and then, uh, took maybe a month or two off, and I was, uh, reported to board December 9th of 1990. Hazen Okay, and, um, you were from Florida at that time, but, um, what did you know about specifically the RTC Orlando region before you got here? Ennis Uh, nothing. Yeah. So… Hazen And… Ennis It was kind of a whirlwind, right? You know, you hear about all this stuff, “Hey, you’re going to boot camp here.” But for the most part, you know, it was, uh, get on an airplane, you show up, they bus you here, and then everything was a whole different world, you know? You’re, uh, taken out of the comfort zone, thrown right into, uh, you know, people yelling at ya, right? Hazen Uh huh. Ennis And 20 years ago, you know, it was a little different too, because they—you didn’t have all this, uh, kindler[sic], gentler, you know, no screaming, no cussing. It was—it was pretty hardcore, but it was good, you know? Hazen How long were you at RTC Orlando? Ennis Uh,for approximately six to eight weeks. I’m not sure exactly. I guess I graduated right around February—was it February 7th[, 1991]? It was right near my birthday. So that was kind of cool, ‘cause I turned 18, uh, you know, right when I graduated boot camp. So it was right around that day. I can’t remember the exact day, but yeah. It was pretty unique. Hazen What were your first impressions of the base? Ennis So, uh, the base—uh, we showed up at night, and then during the day, uh, we’d walk down a long, um, kind of sidewalk, and we marched everywhere we went, and, uh, there was[sic] trees. The weather was, uh, really nice. It was December. It wasn’t too cold, and, um, yeah. it was just, um—we saw a very small part of the base. I mean, we—we walked down the same street. We, uh—they had a big, uh, like marching field, right? Looked like a big tarmac—a big airport. Just a big black top, right? And, uh… Hazen Did that area have a name at all? Ennis The Grinder. Hazen Okay. Ennis Yeah, so that’s where you do all your practicing for marching, and, uh—but no. For the most part, it was, um, the same thing every day. So you really didn’t see any part of the, uh—the outside of the base, and all the buildings were very similar. Um, it was—it was, uh, very sanitary, I guess, right? So… Hazen And you’ve started to talk about this a little bit but what were your first days of service like? What were your first days of training like? Ennis Right. So—so, the very first day, you know, when we arrived here, there was a lot of yellin’, and, uh, obviously they were lining a bunch of people up from different parts of the country, and, uh, it was just kind of a shock, and, uh, for the most part it was, uh, Wow. You know? Your eyes are o—opened wide, and from then on, you just stayed busy. I mean your—you didn’t have a lot of time to think, I guess, ‘Cause they were just hitting you with you so many, uh, new things, and you were learning this, learning that. Um, so yeah. It—it wasn’t—there wasn’t really a lot of time to—to think about it, and then as you asked the question now, I guess I really hadn’t thought about it until—‘til now. Hazen Sure. Ennis You know, what I thought. Hazen Um, can you describe for me what daily life was like? Ennis Yeah, so daily life was, uh, pretty good. Very routine. You wake up, uh, I think it was about 4:30, and, uh, you did the, uh, you know—you brushed your teeth, Got all your toiletry stuff done, You lined up, They came in, Inspected, uh, the—the compartment, and then, uh, we normally PTed [physical training], uh—exercised, and then we went to classes, right? And then you’d do some— you’d go to chow—lunch, and like I said, you were marching everywhere you went, so that was a chore in itself, ‘cause we’d never done it, and, um, yeah. So there was a lot of motivation. Uh, they used to call it, um—uh, basically, you’d get punished, right? ‘Cause you didn’t do something right. So they would take you outside on the sidewalk and line everybody up, and they’d start making you do jumping jacks or something like that. But, uh, every day was filled with, um—with something new, as far as what’d you learn and then they’d move you on to the next step, So—but yeah the routine was: you wake up, get the compartment ready for inspection, uh, get inspected, go to class or PT, and um—and that’s the funny thing about the, uh, the exercise. The exercise wasn’t as, uh—we—we had no—no exercise uniform. I mean, you exercised in your daily stuff, Right? So it was kind of unique in that way that, uh—um, everything you did was kind of an exercise and you’re always ready to, uh, do—do jumping jacks or pushups or whatever. So it was kinda—kinda cool, and then, um, yeah. You’d hit noontime lunch, hit some, uh, dinner, and then after dinner, I know we did stuff, but I can’t remember what happened after dinner. Like I said, everything was kind of a blur. It’s kind of hard to go back and to—to think about it now. It’s, uh—you know, as I see the RTC now, I mean, none—none of it looks like what I remember, but then again all the buildings were tore[sic] down. So… Hazen Can you tell me a little bit more about the inspections? What exactly was being inspected? Ennis [sighs]. Hazen What exactly were the standards… Ennis Oh, yeah. Hazen That you were supposed to be meeting? Ennis Yeah, this was… Hazen [inaudible]. Ennis This was some crazy stuff, right? So on your bunks—and—and they were single, uh—very, uh basic bunks that you had. You had a bottom bunk and you had a top bunk. So what they would expect is, uh, the hospital corners, right? So how you folded your sheets and they would go down to the—the biggest detail of how the, uh—the edges of the sheets were, uh—I don’t know if you had that little, uh—I don’t know. You just had to have the sheets the right way, so when it folded over you wouldn’t see that little rough edge. So you always want the smooth edge on top and then the, uh—the hospital corners had to be at a 45 degree—everything had to be… Hazen What’s a hospital corner? Ennis It’s just where you, uh, bring the excess sheet… Hazen Oh. Ennis And bring it at an angle. It’s kind of like wrapping a present, right? And you take the excess and then fold it underneath so you have real, real neat corners. Hazen They call it “hospital corners.” Ennis Hospital corners, right? And the next thing was, uh, how you fold your socks, how you fold you underwear, how—you know, your t-shirts, and then everything else had a place, right? And they’re very detailed on—on—on that stuff. Your shoes had to be shined, and, uh, yeah. So everything… Hazen Belt buckles, maybe? Ennis Oh, belt buckles? Yeah. Attention to detail for all that stuff. So… Hazen Um… Ennis And that—that was every day, right? I mean, you didn’t get a day that went by where you didn’t get inspected, and most the time, you failed the inspection, right? ‘Cause there was always something they would find that wasn’t right, and then, uh, I think there was like 60 of us that started off. So you’d have 60 people in a, uh—in a room, where you slept and you did inspections, and, uh, normally, uh, those never went well, right? So you’re—you’re always getting corrected on somethin’, and that’s kind of unique, ‘cause, uh, as you go along you start getting better, right? And, uh, less, uh—less yellin’ [laughs]. Hazen So in that room of 60 or so, would there be one officer that came through to inspect? Ennis Uh… Hazen How would that… Ennis Yeah, it’d normally—you—you’d… Hazen Would it take a long time? Ennis No, pretty quick. You were assigned two recruit—recruit company commanders, and, uh—so for us, we had two chiefs. I think actually for us, one might have been a senior chief—an E[nlisted Rank] 7 and an E-8. So they’re pretty senior, and, uh, yeah. It’d go pretty quick actually. Maybe, uh—maybe a half hour. But—so the whole session though was, uh, you get inspected, they get mad at ya, they exercised ya, and then you fixed, you know, what the problems were and then you went and, you know, did classes or something like that. yeah. Hazen And then you talked a little bit about classes and tasks and you would do some class and then move onto the next one. Can you give me an idea of examples of… Ennis Yeah. Hazen Classes that you had to go through? Ennis Yeah, so a lot of ‘em were—were talking about firefighting, or different parts of the, uh—the ship. You know, how the ship operates. Um, different, uh—so—so the ship is, you know—they don’t have addresses for the different rooms, right? So you have bulkheads and they start from the beginning of the—of the bow, and that’s, uh, frame zero, and then, uh, as you go further back on the ship, the frames will increment up. So, um, you know, they—but basically the premise is, if you need to get to a compartment that’s, uh, on the first deck, right? It’s gonna be one and then the second number’s gonna be the frame number, right? So you know what—you know what level it’s on, and then the second number is gonna tell you how far from the bow, uh, the room is, and then the third number’ll tell ya how far out, uh—out it is from the center of the ship. Hazen Okay. Ennis So—so, uh, it’s a pretty unique numbering system, but it works on every ship. So… Hazen Sure. Ennis Yeah. Hazen Can you give me any other examples of classes? Ennis Yeah, so, uh, we talked about the firefighting. We talked about the, uh—I guess the, uh—the history. History was a big deal and, uh, that was kind of unique. So the Navy is big on tradition, right? And, uh, a lot of that was, uh—they’d go back and they’d talk about, you know, how the Navy was first, uh conceived, who, uh—the first ship—don’t quiz me on any of this, ‘cause… Hazen [laughs]. Ennis [laughs]. But, uh—yeah. So, uh, let’s see. We had, of course, uniform standards, regulations, you know. You did all the stuff talking about pay, you know. It was just a—anything you wanted to know about the Navy and, uh, that you needed to know, uh, you’d get in those classes. Some of it was basic, um, you know, uh, classes maybe on English or math, and some of these were, you know, to make sure that the, uh—uh, people could—could beat the standards, I guess. The other thing we did was a lot of in-prossing[sic] for your different ratings or jobs. So for me, um, they would take you to the medical—a lot of shots, right? And remember, you had to get uniforms. So yeah. It was a lot of, uh—yeah. Now—now as I start to remember all this—yeah. The first week, I guess, was, you know, picking up your uniform, you’re getting shots, you’re going to medical, and just a lot of in-processing, right? And then maybe the, uh, you know, the—the, uh—I don’t know—second, third, fourth week was a little more, you know, of the classes and stuff like that. So—but yeah. It—it was busy, and then maybe, uh—let’s see. So what was it? Boot camp was about, uh, six weeks, and, uh, in be—right in the middle of it, they had something called, uh, “work week,” right? So what they would do is—so all the facilities on the, uh—on the base—you know, whether it was chow hall, the laundry, the admin—was normally run by the recruits with, uh, some—some other senior sailors, you know, overseeing ‘em, right? So like, uh, for the chow hall, you had your cooks who were pretty senior sailors. They’d been in for four or five, six, years, and then of course, you had your recruits that would do all the, you know, washing the dishes, you know, cleaning everything, you know, running stuff from here to there, and then, uh—so we did that at about the, uh, maybe the third week, and, uh, did that for a whole week, and then, uh, you would fall back into training—training mode. Yeah. Hazen And those kind of tasks were normal tasks? Not like punishment or anything? Ennis No, no. So—so…. Hazen They were expected? Ennis Yeah, yeah. Exactly. That was part of the routines. So you would learn, uh, you know, whatever. Hazen Okay. Ennis Yeah, everything had a purpose. You may not have known what it was when you were doing it. Hazen Sure[?]. Ennis But as—as—as you look back on it, you kind of see that, you know, it was responsibility. It was initiative. It was, uh, all those sorts of things as a young kid you may not have, right? And, uh—so, you know, some people did good[sic] at it and other people—other people needed maybe a little more motivation. Hazen Did the Navy use words kind of like that? As kind of… Ennis Oh, yeah. Hazen Key words to guide? What were some of those key words? Enni Yeah, so, uh—um, “Uniformity will prevail,” right? Hazen Mmhmm. Ennis Um, you know, obviously, looking sharp. “Sharp” is a—is a good one. “Professionalism.” Uh, let’s see. Um, I’m trying to think of some other ones. Uh, Yeah. Basically “teamwork.” You know, that’s—That’s another huge one that you—you’ll see, and then, the, uh—and remember, this was the first co-ed[ucational] boot camp too, so we had women, uh, that were, uh—obviously, we weren’t integrated, per say, but we had a sister company that, um, kind of had the same timeline, right? So, uh—uh, but yeah, but everyone was a shipmate, you know? You weren’t like a—or a sailor. Everything was kind of gender-neutral and, uh—so that was kind of unique, but yeah. They really wanted you to get the teamwork and the, uh—and—and the leadership, and they promoted the idea that, you know, when you’re on a ship, you know, it’s you, right? I mean, You don’t have anyone coming in there to help ya, so If something happens, uh, it’s the crew that’s gonna, uh, take care of the, uh—the issues, whatever they might be. So—and that was the other thing—talk about history—was they used a lot of examples from the past, you know, whether it be, uh, um, back in the John Paul Jones days or the, um, you know—in World War II or—or anything like that. So it was pretty cool. Hazen Thank you. Ennis You’re welcome. Hazen Can you tell me a little bit about the recruits that you went through training with? What was your impression or your relationships like with the different recruits? Ennis Yeah, so, uh, that was pretty cool, and it’s—it’s kind of funny how, um, you know, people that don’t know each other and are from different parts of the country—But everyone has a characteristic or—or a trait, and, uh, I think the—the instructors were very good at picking out, um, you know, people for their different talents, right? Hazen Mmhmm. Ennis And then, Maybe—maybe, uh, they had some insight. but like, uh, we had an older recruit, right? I think he was like 25, and, uh, he immediately kind of, like, took charge. So they made him the, uh, kind of the leader of the group, right? Hazen Yeah. Ennis And then we had some other people that were, uh, you know—I don’t want to stereotype people—but they had one guy with glasses, and I think he was very administrative. So they made him the yeoman. So you pretty much had the same basic tasks or the basic structures like anywhere, right? You have a—a leader. You have a secretary. You have a, you know, master-at-arms, and, um—so yeah. I remember the people that they picked were, uh—I’d kinda go Yeah. That—that’s interesting. You know, and, uh, my claim to fame was, you know, to—to lay low and don’t be noticed. So that worked out pretty well, and, uh, yeah. It was uneventful, and the memories that, you know—from—from boot camp—while—I don’t really keep in touch them. Hazen Okay. Ennis I mean, it’s a—it’s—if you see them, it’s an immediate, uh, bond, because it’s something you got—you know, you’ve been through. Yeah. It was pretty cool. Hazen What kind of social life existed among the recruit—recruits? Ennis Um, yeah. Social life? Really none. Hazen [laughs]. Ennis I mean, you know, the biggest thing was there was maybe—an always kind of an underground, uh, type deal with the—with the recruits. Like if the, uh—the instructor left, then, uh, you know, the recruits would—I mean, we were breaking the rules, but you know they—they would say, “Lights out. Go to sleep.” And the next thing you know, uh, you’d start, you know, maybe talking to your buddy or, um, just kind of, you know, either, uh—just doing what you need to do, write a letter home or—or something like that, right? So I don’t think it was like breaking the rules, but you always kinda had your, uh—uh, your—your little bit of time to yourself, right? And, uh, the funny part was, a lot of people, uh, um, kinda worked out, you know? They—they, uh—‘cause I forget what time the lights went out, but there was, uh—yeah. A lot of people were—were doing pushups and exercisin’ and—yeah. I mean, it wasn’t a lot of people. don’t get me wrong. It wasn’t like they turned the lights off, the place goes crazy. It was just kind of unique, where, you know, certain people had their kind of routines and they kinda kept them. So it was kinda—kinda unique. Hazen Can you tell me a little bit more about the co-ed aspect of training? Ennis Yeah, so the—the co-ed aspect wasn’t a big deal. In fact, it was, uh, you know—I—I don’t know. Maybe—maybe I just didn’t, uh, take a lot of notice to it, but for the most part, they did what they did. Uh, we did what we did. There wasn’t a whole lot of, uh, interaction between the two groups. Uh, you know, we’d pass each other. We, uh, you know—really there wasn’t a whole lot of interaction. Hazen Um, did the women have a woman leader and the—the men have a male leader? Ennis You know, that’s a good question. Um, I think it was, uh, both. I think, uh—I mean we—I had male instructors, but I think some of the females had male instructors and I think some of the, uh, male, uh, groups had female instructors, but I couldn’t tell you for sure. I don’t think they segregated it that much, but, uh, I can’t recall. Hazen Were there any activities that were done together, even like… Ennis Yeah. Hazen eating or anything? Ennis Yeah. In fact, uh, um, we did have a, uh, competition week, right? Maybe not a week. Maybe a day or two, right? And, uh, it was kinda like, uh—what do you call it? Your field day, and, uh, you go out and do sports and everything, and I’m trying to think how we worked that, but I think that was one of the integrated-type deals where, you know, you, uh, um—or was that—I’m trying to think. Uh, Yeah. well, either way, I knew they were out there. I don’t think we competed against ‘em, but, you know, we competed against the different companies, right? So, uh—and I think there’s probably like 10 or 15 companies going on at one time, but I can’t remember. I can’t remember, but I know there was a lot of people. I mean, it was like a football field. Hazen Mmhmm. Ennis And the whole football field—it was probably a couple of football fields—and the whole place was busy, uh, with people doing stuff, right? From tug-of-war to sprints to, you know—I can’t remember all the stuff that was going on, but yeah. so that was pretty cool. Hazen Can you tell me a little bit about your instructors? Who were they and what were they like? Ennis Yeah, so, um, I remember I had a, uh, colored, uh, guy and his name was—he was a DCC[sic], and, uh, I want to say his name was, uh—what was his—Gibson, and Then, uh, I had a, uh— I wanna say an MMC, which was—so a DC [damage controlman] was a damage controlman, who was like a firefighter, right? Basically an equivalent of, and then we had a, uh, MMC, and he could’ve been—either way, it’s not important, and they’re both chiefs and they’re pretty, uh—a little older. You know, maybe 45-50, or it seemed old at that time [laughs], but they were, uh, business. They were business. They were, uh—they were no joke. They were, uh, uh, very strict. They were, uh—didn’t smile a lot. But, um, you—you understood that they were in charge, and, uh, they—they were, uh—they were good leaders, and to this day, I—you know, I enjoyed my time, I guess, if you—you could say that. Because, you know, you get a good leader and it really makes things easy, because there’s not a whole lot of, uh, stuff you have to think about, right? So that—that—that’s pretty good. Hazen What does MMC mean? Ennis Machinist[‘s] mate. They, um—they, uh—they do a lot of the mechanical stuff on the boat. They—they are, uh—they’re kind of like a metal worker type deal. Hazen What was the hardest thing you remember doing at RTC? Ennis Yeah, I guess it was the—I guess it was the marching, you know? I mean, that sounds crazy, but, you know, I can’t dance. You gotta have a lot of rhythm, you know? And, uh, in fact, this is a funny story. Our, uh, recruit, uh, company commander, uh—and that’s the other part. So the recruit company commander is a recruit, just like all of u, but he’s the leader of the group, right? He’s, uh, designated. Uh, you really, uh—I didn’t see too many people volunteer for it. So we went through a couple of guys, right? Hazen Yeah. Ennis Uh, I think at one point, I may have done it for like an hour, you know, till I got fired, right? But the, uh—the guy that stood out in my mind that had been the leader the longest was a—a tall, uh, black man, right? and he was pretty young. He was probably about the same age as most of us—about 20, and, uh—but yeah. he had it. He—he could do the marching. He had no problem calling off the, uh, cadences, and, um, yeah. He—so he—he was—he really, I think, turned our company around, because, um—I mean that was a tough part. I mean, if you can’t march, uh, you can’t get from one place to another, right? And it sounds ridiculous, because you go, What’s the, uh—I mean, Why are we doing it? right? How does this help us run a ship or be in the Navy? But it’s just one of those things where everyone has to do it. Everyone has to do it good[sic], and if you do good[sic] doing it, you look good, right? So, um, yeah. We went from not being able to, uh, um—you know, everyone being in the same step to be, you know, doing a marching band type deal, and, uh, remember: everything’s happening pretty quick[sic], right? So at the end of the, uh, six to eight weeks—whatever it was—uh, we looked pretty sharp. That—that was a pretty big accomplishment, because I think that the day before graduation, we have a little private, uh—not private, I guess—but the families get to come and, you know, we’ll march, uh, up and down, and it’s pretty neat, you know? So good times. Hazen In addition to that, which sounds like that was a—a moment of pride for you, can you tell me another moment that you felt most proud? Ennis Uh, let’s see. Hm. Uh, I mean, boot camp—I guess, uh, everything was just kind of go, go, go. So um, I mean, I guess—I guess pride being the—no. I don’t know. Not—not really. I think the biggest part is just the accomplishments in the little stuff that you do, and nothing’s really major. The only reason that I remember the, uh, marching was because that was—I mean, that was tough for me. I was like Man. Step. Step. What? [laughs] And then, uh—but no. the rest of it was, uh, fairly, um—I mean—I don’t know—easy or—not easy. probably isn’t the word. Maybe it’s just you take each day, day by day. So yeah. Hazen What was the official purpose of the Grinder? And does it have any special significance to you? Ennis Yeah, so—so the Grinder is where you practice most of your marching, and, uh, the Grinder—yeah. It was painful. I mean, you’re just out there forever. You’re, uh, practicing these maneuvers. You’re, uh—um, and one of the key, uh, things that we went through was: you used to have to march with these old M1 [Garand] rifles, right? or maybe they were M14s. but if you can imagine, you know, a 3-4 foot long rifle that weighs 10-15-20 pounds, and you’re holding this thing forever, you know, it gets tiring, and at some point, they decided to do away with it and, uh—right in the middle of our training, and I was thanking whoever made that decision, because that was the worst, right? So things became a little easier by not having to carry that. But, uh, yeah. for the most part, the Grinder was where you spent a lot of your time, just—just kind of learning the, uh—the different marching steps and everything. I—I’m not sure. Have you—have you ever done any marching? Hazen No. Ennis Yeah, I mean, it’s… Hazen Well… Ennis It gives a—it gives a tr—like, to the band people… Hazen Mmhmm. Ennis While they’re playing the music, and you just kinda go, Wow. Hazen Mmhmm. Ennis Those guys are really—I mean, uh—Working hard. ‘Cause it’s—it’s hard. So… Hazen My brothers… Ennis Mmhmm. Hazen Were in marching band. Ennis Yeah. Hazen So I’ve seen the hard work Ennis Yeah. Hazen But I haven’t done it myself. Ennis Yeah, yeah. Well, thank—thank goodness [laughs]. Hazen Um, the decision to march without the rifles, Was that… Ennis I—I have no idea. All—all’s I know is, um—I remember classes before me and classes after me, um, uh, did have ‘em. So I’m not sure what—what the, uh—the issue was with that, but that brings up a good question of—yeah. Why? What was the, uh… Hazen Was it like that week that—that you’re supposed to stop marching with them? Was it something [inaudible]… Ennis No, I mean, most of the time… Hazen [inaudible]. Ennis People kept them the whole time… Hazen Oh. Ennis So I’m not really sure why—why they stopped that, and like I said, I think they brought ‘em back too. Hazen Mmhmm. Ennis So I’m sure it was someone’s, uh, good idea, or maybe someone got hurt, or—who knows? So… Hazen Um, can you tell me about other areas on the base, in addition to the Grinder, that were of particular importance… Ennis Yeah. Hazen To you? Ennis So—so the pool was a big one, right? And, uh, that was a good time and, uh, it really amazed me by how many people couldn’t swim. That was, uh—that kind of blew my mind, right? Hazen Mmhmm. Ennis And, uh—but that— was a lot of fun, and then I remember, uh, Perimeter Room, and I’m not sure if it was called “Perimeter Room,” but it’s where we did our timed, uh, runs to make sure you’re, um—you could pass the, um—the PT, I guess, and then there was the—the gym, you know. So the gym—we worked out in there a few times. You know, I’m trying to—I guess we did have, uh, PT uniforms, but I can’t—I can’t remember putting them on all that much. I think we only did for the, uh—the out-test and the in-test. Either way, um—and let’s see. Oh, you—you had the, uh—we had the, uh, firefighting trainer. The, um—and a lot of this I remember were— ‘cause those were, you know, the—the shooting range, where we’d have to shoot the guns. Um, the chow hall, of course, because we ate there a bunch. That was good times, and then, um—yeah. I just—I just remember this strip, you know, where the barracks were, right? It was kind of like—it almost—it’s a similar lay out of this building, you know? Kind of the long, narrow, um—I forgot how many stories it was, but you would come out of there and we walk down a—a street—marching down a street, and then, uh, based on, you know, kind of left to right, you may have some classes or classrooms, and then, uh, down at the very end, you’d have, a, uh—the chow hall, and the—the Grinder, I guess, was on the far, far right, and I can’t, you know—like I said, I can’t—if you go there now, none of it’s recognizable, and the other thing too is have you heard of the [USS] Blue Jacket? Hazen Mmhmm. Ennis Yeah, so I don’t know where that was in relationship. For us, it was right next to our barracks, but where—where it’s at now is unrecognizable, so it’s pretty unique. Hazen Can you tell me about the Blue Jacket? Ennis All’s I remember is we didn’t go on it and, uh, we took a picture in front of it, and, uh, to tell you the truth, I don’t know why we didn’t go on it. Yeah. It was kinda—kinda strange. I think maybe it was getting a little—a little older, you know? But yeah. Hazen What did it feel like to graduate? Ennis Yeah, so that was pretty—that was pretty cool. ‘Cause, um—I’m trying to think. What—what was the final thing that we did? Uh, let’s see. All’s I know is, uh, at the very end, they, uh—they bring out the flag and they start, uh, playing “America the Beautiful.” Or what was it? “[I’m] Proud to Be an American.” And, uh, yeah. So everyone got real emotional and it was pretty cool. But, uh, that’s what I remember, and, uh, I’m trying to think what—what culminated, uh, before that. You know, what—what lead up to that point, and, uh—hm. That’s—that’s kind of strange. I can’t remember what the, uh—But all’s I remember is when we were done, it—it was pretty awesome. Yeah. So it was pretty cool. Hazen Was there a lot of people there watching? Ennis No, no. In fact, it was just our group. So… Hazen Oh, really? Ennis Yeah, so—so that was, I guess, the, uh—the—the recruit phase kind of ending, right? That’s when, you know, you’re done being a recruit, and the next day you graduated, and that’s when they had, you know, all your friends and loved ones, whoever in the stands and you did the, uh, parade, the marching through and everything, but yeah. as far as a lot of people watching, for what we were doing before—I—I mean, honestly, I can’t—I can’t remember what we were doing. I mean, I can’t remember if it was drills or—hm. Yeah. I guess it’s been a long time. It’s pretty—but I do remember, like I said, when it was done, it was, uh—they bring the flag out and everyone was like “Whoa” It was pretty funny. Not funny, but it’s pretty—pretty, uh, neat to see everyone kinda, ya know… Hazen And you get your hat, right? Ennis You know, we… Hazen [inaudible]. Ennis We didn’t get a hat. It was kinda, uh, yeah. Like I said, there’s no hat. There was, uh—like I said, I just remember a pep talk, the flag, the music, and then, uh, the next day, I think we, uh, graduated. Hazen And that took place on the Grinder, right? Ennis Um, no, what—what you talking about the, uh… Hazen The graduation. Ennis So the graduation took place on the grass, which, um—I’m trying—I can’t really remember where that was at either, but no. the Grinder was—was separate. So yeah. Hazen And then what did you do for the Navy after you left RTC? Ennis Yeah, so after the Navy, Uh—and this is kind of funny, ‘cause when I—before I joined, I was lookin’ at the different jobs, right? ‘Cause they have all kinds of jobs, and I was talking to the recruiter and he handed me a—a couple different, uh, cards, right? That listed the jobs and what they did, and, uh, you know, one of them was like torpedo’s mate, and so I looked at that one, and it says, “Must work in a,” uh, you know, “hot,” uh, “greasy environment,” right? So I was like I don’t want that one, and then I saw one that says—and plus, the school—the A school, which is the—the school that teaches you to do the job, it’s like in— I don’t know—somewhere—somewhere in the United States, and I see this one that says “EW,” which is Electronic Warfare, and, uh, it says, uh “Work in cool,” um, you know, uh, “dark climates,” you know, “in a—in a room with,” uh, you know—I don’t know. Anyways [sic], it sounded cool, right? ‘Cause it had the—It was Combat Information Center, so I didn’t—had no idea what it did, and then the bonus was the, uh, school’s in Pensacola. So, you know, I didn’t—that’s where I joined the Navy at, and that’s where my family was at. So I was like I’ll take that job, right? Had no idea what it did. So, uh—and the other reason I joined the Navy is ‘cause I didn’t want to go to school, right? Which is kind of funny. So the first thing the Navy does—the Navy does after graduation is they send you back to school, right? Which is this Electronic Warfare, and it—you can imagine your—your radar detector in your car, or if, you know—you know the concept—and it picks up the emissions from the cops’, uh, radar gun. this is the same thing that—that the ship does, but it picks up the radars from airplanes, from other ships, from, you know, missiles, from whatever, and those signals are analyzed and you can actually tell what kind of car it is or, you know, what type of ship or airplane. So the whole time in school, they’re teaching you about these radar fundamentals. They’re teaching you about the propagation. Blah, blah, blah, and then they want you to memorize—like a telephone book—of all this parameters, right? And I’m not saying it—I mean, it’s rote memorization. There’s just no way around it, right? So you’d spend your nights trying to figure out how you’re going to memorize all these numbers, so if they popped up, you could, you know, say what it was. So that’s what would happen is, uh, you—you—you’d get with a buddy and figure out these ways to memorize stuff, and, uh—so yeah. We, uh, did that, and then after that, um—I guess that was maybe another eight weeks and then was off to Virginia, uh, for my first ship. Hazen Can you take me from Virginia somewhat quickly to NAWCTSD? Can you walk me through? Ennis Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it’s pretty easy. Hazen How you got from one to the next? Ennis Yeah, so I did three years in, uh, Virginia, and uh, you know, the job was okay, but it was on a ship, and I saw a helicopter flying and I says[sic]. “That looks like a cool job.” I was coming up for reenlistment and I talked to one of my, uh, leading Petty Officers, and said, “Hey. This is, uh—I’d like to look at doing a different job.” He took care of me. He walked, you know—walked me through the whole process. Put a, uh, a package in, got accepted, and then, uh, for AW, which is Aviation Systems Operator—and then I get sent to Pensacola for Air Crew School, and, uh, I had no idea, but then I got sent to Rescue School—Swimmer School, which is in Pensacola, and, uh, I’m not sure if you’ve seen the movie [The] Guardian? With, uh… Hazen No. Ennis Who was it? Anyways[sic], so that’s the Coast Guard. Hazen Oh, yeah, with… Ennis Bruce…<a title="">[1]</a> Hazen Yeah—no. I think you’re right, and… Ennis Yeah, yeah. The, uh, young kid, right? Hazen That kid. Ennis Yeah, right? [laughs] So like… Hazen [Christopher]Ashton Kutcher. Ennis Yeah, yeah. Right. Exactly. Hazen Yeah, seen it. Ennis Yeah. Hazen You did that? Ennis Right. Hazen Oh. Ennis So, uh, yeah, I mean, once again everything—I mean, Hollywood makes everything look like Hollywood, right? But it’s pretty intense. I mean, you know, you’re doing stuff and you get pushed underwater and what not. So I did that then went to my first, um, Aviation Squadron in Jacksonville, and then, um, did five years there. So while—when I was on the ship, I did a six-month cruise, plus all the workups, you know, hit the Med[iterranean Sea], Um, you know—Greece, Spain, um—where else? I mean, uh, Croatia, and then, uh, you know—then I cross-rated. Then I went to my first Aviation Command. We did the same thing. Hopped on a carrier, did our six-month cruise right over to the Med. Uh, we did the [Persian] Gulf. Uh, you know. So that whole Europe and, uh, the rest of the area. Yeah. We just hit different ports in there. Hazen The Gulf? As in the Persian Gulf? Ennis Yeah, the Persian Gulf. Right, and then, uh— and then I did that for five years. Did three cruises, plus all the associative workups. You know, we did Fallon[?] detachments in Nevada, and, um, we did Andros Island, Bahamas, and, um, yeah. It’s terrible duty, but you know, you’re gone a lot, so you take, uh—you take your good points with your bad, and then uh—oh, yeah. Then I went to the wing as an instructor in Jacksonville. So I was still working with the Aviation Commands, except I didn’t have to go on a cruise, and then, uh, after three years there, picked orders to, uh, [Naval Air Facility] Atsugi, Japan, which is right near Tokyo, and, uh, went over there and did four years in Japan on the [USS] Kitty Hawk, and, uh, we hit Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, um, and, uh, did some work in the Philippines for the, uh—the work on terrorism there. They have a big terrorist cell there that many people don’t know about, and, uh, we did, um— uh, it wasn’t tsunami relief. I guess it was, uh—I guess it was typhoon relief in the Philippines, but after I left, they did do a lot of tsunami relief, ‘because that was the—the area. So, uh—and then, uh, after Japan, came to NAWCTSD, Orlando, and did four years there and retired. Hazen How did that assignment come about? Ennis The Orlando one? Hazen Yes. Ennis So, um, they have a list of assignments that you look up on a computer and, um, I said, Boy, that would be a good one, if I ever plan on getting out, and, uh, at that point, you know, it was pretty stressful. It, you know—I did the instructor duty and then I did the duty in Ja—in Japan, and, uh—so yeah. I was looking kind of for a, uh—a, um—actually, I—I loved the trainers, right? I loved the computers. So I thought that’d be a good fit and, uh, so I applied for it and it was open. So… Hazen And when you got here, what were your first days like at NAWCTSD? Ennis Yeah, it was pretty cool. It was more of an office environment, and, uh, it was very different than, uh—from the Navy buildings. I mean, even though this is a Navy building, it’s predominantly filled by civilians. So the military’s a very small part of that, and, um, but for—for the most part it was, uh—it was nice, because, um, everything was ready for you when you got there. The, uh—all the, um, computers, the—the furniture, everything was very new. Very, uh, kind of, uh, high tech, you know? There—there’s just a lot of resources available for you to do your job, and, uh, back— in the—in the fleet, you know, you may not have that. You may have, you know, one computer for five or six guys, and then, uh, there’s just not a lot of space. So space this size that we’re in, you’d have up to 30 people trying to work out of there. So… Hazen And speaking of your job, what were some of the things that you did? What were some of your primary responsibilities? Ennis So, uh—um, I guess, uh, for the aviation, the air crewman was being a rescue swimmer was the, uh, big one. So no matter when we flew or where we flew, you always had someone that had their—their gear with them, you know? You’re always SAR capable, which is Search and Rescue. So someone had to go in the water, you’d always have someone available. Um, so that was the number one, uh, thing that you did. The other part was, if we’re under way, uh, on the carrier that we were anti-submarine, uh, mission—meaning that we had a, uh, big sonar dome that would drop out of the bottom of the helicopter in a hover and you would stick that, you know— a couple hundred feet down in the water, send out a big sonic pulse, and see if you get any returns from the submarines. Uh, so that was another one, ‘cause that was pretty unique. You do that day or night, and, um, whether a sea state was 10-15-foot and the pilots are trying to stay in a hover, and, uh, so, yeah. that was pretty—pretty interestin’. Hazen That was—was that at NAWCTSD? Ennis No, no. Hazen So that was before? Ennis Yeah, so at NAWCTSD—the good thing about NAWCTSD is the needed the people from the fleet, because they would built the simulators that would act like, uh, you know real helicopters, right? So you’d go in there and you’d give them the subject matter expertise to say “Hey. This looks good,” or “This doesn’t good[sic].” Or you’d just liaison with the fleet and then go from there. So at NAWCTSD, the primary responsibility was program management or, uh, subject matter expert. So you’d kinda—kinda blur those lines a little bit, but, uh, for the most part, we were only there for 3-4 years, and the civilians have been there for a lot longer. So you’d come in and—and kind of assist them. Hazen Um, you might have already answered this a little bit already, but can you tell me about the types of projects that you worked on with NAWCTSD and what they were trying to accomplish? Ennis Yeah, so—so, the funny this is—is, uh, I transferred from Japan, right? And when I first got to, uh, NAWCTSD, I meet my boss, and he’s a civilian guy, and, uh, he’s a UCF graduate—electrical engineering, so he’s a great guy. Hazen Who’s that? Ennis Uh, Jonathan Glass. So—In fact, he’s still my boss right now. He’s probably wondering where I’m at... Hazen [laughs]. Ennis But if I tell him I’m here, he’s good, and then, uh—but yeah. So I get—I get to NAWCTSD, and I just, you know, been probably gone from Japan for maybe 2-3 weeks, ‘cause I took some leave, and they—they go, “Hey. We’re getting ready to deliver a trainer to, uh, to Japan.”" and it happened to be a—a simulator—a desktop simulator of the helicopter, uh, that I just, uh, got done flying it, and, uh, so—so in Japan, they don’t have the resources for new construction and for a, uh, new trainer. So they had this, uh—this desktop, um, simulator that would give you the tactical display and all the button pushin’, and, uh, we—we ended up delivering that right back to Japan, the squadron I’d just left. So it was kind of funny that, uh—which brings up another funny story, ‘cause you got Mount Fuji in there, right? You’ve seen pictures of Mount Fuji? Well, I took my daughters up there. I think they were eight and ten at the time, and it’s pretty—it’s a pretty good climb. It’s volcanic rock, right? So, uh, I didn’t want to be the dad that pushed them and scarred them for life. So I was being positive, but I would kind of let them do what they wanted to do, right? Meaning that, you know, if they couldn’t make, uh—um, I didn’t want to push ‘em too hard. Anyways[sic], we ended up not making the top, and the rumor is, if you don’t make it to the top of Fuji when you’re there, you’ll end up coming back, and yeah. I never believed that, but low and behold, you know, after reporting to NAWCTSD, I end up going back. So isn’t that funny? Hazen [laughs]. That’s fantastic. Ennis Yeah, it is fantastic. So, um, yeah. So basically we delivered a simulator back to Japan and, uh, that—that’s kind of what we do. Whatever, uh—so the ASW—the Anti-Submarine Warfare—Uh, the other part of, uh—I told you about the dome that lowers in the water. the other thing that we’ll do is we’ll drop microphones, and basically, uh—it’s called a sonobouy, but basically that’s what it is—is a microphone that you drop in the water, and you’re able to see the, uh, signature of the sub or whatever you’re listening to, and identify it, and if need, you know—if need be, drop a torpedo on it. Yeah. So… Hazen Can you explain a little bit more about what a desktop simulator looks like and is? Ennis Yeah, so if—if you use your car as an example, and, uh, if—if, uh, uh, all the controls from the gear shift to the steering wheel to the, uh, radio station. So all that we put on to a computer, and, uh, we try to simulate the environment. So for us, it’s the ocean mainly, and, uh, the ocean is, uh, you know—it’s pretty complex, right? And then especially when you throw sound in there, the propagation paths can get really, uh, really difficult. So the claim to fame for us is how much, uh, simulation do you need to do of the ocean to make it realistic for the acoustics? They start talking about fidelity and, uh, you know, then, um, realism and stuff like that, but—but that’s, uh—it’s a big trade off. Because if you have enough money, you can do anything right? Well, of course, we don’t have enough money. So, uh, we—there’s always a tradeoff. So a lot of that’s compromises, right? You make compromise in the visual system, or you may have to compromise in the size of equipment. So we would make our system mobile, put it on laptops, and, uh, the laptops, you know, in it—in itself, would compromise the, um— or maybe not. Yeah. I guess compromise the visual part of it. Meaning that you’re not gonna get real good visuals, but we’re not training the pilot how to fly the aircraft. What we’re trying to do is train the crew to work together, right? So—so each computer would be a different station. You’d have the pilot station, the co-pilot, and then you’d have your sensor operator, and all three of those, uh, computers would be networked together to, um—to talk, you know, back and forth, because in the aircraft, same thing. Uh, You’re able to split duties between a tactical display, um, you know—so if, uh—if I send a contact, via my gear, to the tactical plot, The co-pilot can acknowledge that, and then you’d get a course and speed on the sub based on, you know, uh, different positions and time. So if—if you send a position over—position A— at a certain time, and then you send over position B at a different time and you, you know—you line it up, you know, you’re gonna get a course of speed, right? So the gear would do that for us, but of course there was always some type of, um, uh, error built into the system whether it be, you know, the contact that, um—that you’ve entered in there was maybe a little off, and, uh—so you had to comp—you had to compensate for all that, and, uh, of course, the more context you had, the—the more the error would be averaged out, right? And, uh, so all that’s happenin’ pretty quick, right? And you may have a submarine that’s sending out counter measures, you may have equipment malfunctions, you know, you may have, uh, an inexperienced crew. So—there’s[?] just a lot of different, uh, aspects that go into training. Hey[?], and remember, you know, when the contact, or the sensor, uh, data that you’re looking at is—is just a line on the scope, you know, It—it may be a line that falls at 300 hertz, and then you have to determine what that is or, you know, put a bunch of different pieces of information together. Hazen Um, what, what’s the primary mission of NAWCTSD? Ennis Yeah, so the primary mission of NAWCTSD and, uh—we have a missions statement, I’m tryin’ to, uh—it’s basically to support the fleet in, uh—in simulation, and, um, yeah. That’s probably the easiest thing. Hazen Okay, and what do you think the future holds for simulation training here in Central Florida? Ennis Yeah, so simulation, uh—I mean, we are the, uh, um, center of excellence for modeling and simulation. Uh, we are the Navy’s central resource, when it comes to, uh, modeling and simulation. We have a lot of the, uh, companies around the area that support the, uh—the industry, and that bring a lot of capability to the, uh—to the training, and, um, the, uh—the future, I think, is, uh—is pretty good. Just because, as new technology brings better, uh, fidelity and higher realism, you know, you’re able to kinda blur the—the concept between real and fiction, or—I don’t know how you say that. So, If I can, uh—I mean, we’re getting to the point now where you put on the—the virtual, um, reality headset, and you’re now, as you turn and look—I mean, the—the—the screen is moving with you. So in this room, I could put on a virtual headset, and, um, it would give me the same, uh, dimensions, but of course, I could put a fire in the corner, right? And then I could react to that fire, based on, uh, where it’s at. So it’s getting really, uh, really good now. Hazen In what ways would you say that the simulation projects at NAWCTSD have impacted other branches of the military? Ennis Yeah, so I think the, uh—the impacts, uh—and I can’t say, you know, how we’ve maybe impacted, but I think the synergy of all the different components of the services working together, and the lessons learned from each of the components all kind of being centralized in this area. There’s really no, um—uh, no other place where that happens. I mean here you have the Marines, the Air Force, the Coast Guard, the Navy, uh, all working together, and in fact, uh, we’re now starting to include some, uh, state, uh, local, and other government, uh, organizations that can take advantage of, uh, the, uh—the training and the products that we’ve, uh, built here, and, um, so yeah. That[?]—I really can’t say. It—it’s really just the synergistic effect of everyone being together and the ability to, um, learn from each other. Hazen Thank you. Um, what would you say is one of the most valuable lessons you’ve learned from your time with the Navy? Ennis Yeah, so it’s going to be teamwork. You know, No matter what you do in the Navy, no matter what you do in life, uh, normally it’s, uh—it’s not just one person that makes something happen, and, uh, the other good quote that I learned was to be a good leader, you must be a good follower, right? And, uh, I can’t—I can’t, uh, say enough of that quote, because somebody always thinks, uh, that the leader has it easy, right? Well, guess what? that leader has a leader, that leader has a, you know—so it goes—it goes, uh—someone always has to answer to somebody. So—and that’s probably the one thing that the Navy’s taught me is I used to always say, I can’t wait till I’m in that guy’s position, and then I’m in that guy’s position, and go Man, that’s a—that’s a lot of work. So—but it’s good stuff. Yeah, and—and the other thing I learned to is, uh, if, um, there’s something that you want, you know, normally, you’ll have people that’ll help you out. They just need to know that’s what you want to do. So the people aren’t mind readers. You need to talk to them. You need to let them know what your, uh—what it is that you wanna do, and, uh, for the most part, I’ve never had a—a bad command or a, uh—a bad boss. I mean I’ve had some I’ve liked more than others, but for the most part, everyone have their certain characteristics that you’ll either agree with or disagree with, but as long as they’re—what they’re doing is honorable, then, uh—then yeah. That’s—that’s easy to, you know—person to follow. I tell ya, for the most part, I haven’t seen a, uh—a bad person in the Navy, you know? And, uh, it’s too bad when you hear a lot of the stuff that goes on, because they’re—for now, or in today’s Navy, the Navy is almost zero defect, right? And, uh, back in the day—yeah. You—you did stuff that—that maybe wasn’t, uh—you didn’t want your mom to know about, you know? But, uh, the fact is is that, um—uh, how do I say this? You were, you know—you’re doing some pretty tough stuff, right? And that doesn’t give you a pass for—for—for being, uh, bad, but what it—what it did mean was that you could, uh—you could definitely have a good time, right? And be a little rowdy, but what it didn’t mean was you couldn’t be disrespectful, and—and definitely, uh, some of the changes we made are pretty good, but some of the changes are getting a little to, uh, you know, PC, right? Too much politically correct. Hazen We’ve got about two or so minutes left. is there anything else you’d like to share about your Navy experience. Maybe… Ennis Yeah [laughs]. Hazen Photos for the last two? Alright. Ennis So… Hazen [inaudible] And move it towards you. Ennis Alright. So the cool thing about the Navy is all the different experiences that you get to, uh—places you get to visit, things you get to do. In fact, uh, when I, uh— I guess it was my second cruise when I was with the helicopters. We went to Cannes, France, and they were doing the Cannes [International] Film Festival, right? Hazen Mmhmm. Ennis Well, of course, we don’t get to go inside, but we get to see everyone that walks in, so that was pretty cool, and we saw Henry [Franklin] Winkler. You know who he is? The Fonz. So we yelled to him and—and we were like, “Hey, Mr. Winkler!” And he gave us a—real, real good pep talk, but that was kind of cool, uh, but this is my buddy, and, uh, I’m actually the one taking the picture of this, and we took a—a we were in Australia, and we took the Australian, uh, Special Forces, and we were taking them up to, uh, Fasthrow[?]—and a couple of guys to go parachuting. So, this just happens to be, uh, one of the dogs they take with them and we actually, uh, lowered the dog down, and, uh—but yeah. He went flying with us so, and—and He looks to be having a good time, right [clicks touchpad]. So the, uh—the next picture—this is, um—so—sounds pretty exciting everything I’ve told you, right? Flying in the helicopters, huntin’ the submarines, uh, doing the rescue swimming, and all that, but a lot of it is—just imagine driving in your car or around the block, you know, like a hundred times. Because with the, uh—the systems we have in place now on the airplanes, they’re really safe, and, uh, mishaps, uh happen very rarely. So we would fly in what we’d call “Starboard[?] Delta” for up to three hours at a time and doing circles, right? And this is one of those times where, uh, we’re just kinda sitting at the back and it’s a good view and everything, but we’re just, uh, doing circles around the boat. Just waiting for something to happen so—but, you know, the whole time you’re talking, you’re training. It—it—it—but it does get a little monotonous. Hazen Can you share the one of you guys coming out of the water? Ennis Oh, yeah, yeah. So this one’s in Japan, and, uh, we’re just doing training, and, uh, once again, it’s—it’s pretty fun when you do that. But, uh, that’s—that’s a yearly quall. So we don’t get to do it all the time, but when it—when it does, um—and—and o this was, uh, maybe six years ago. The kid I’m coming up with, uh, he’s a 20 year old and, uh, pretty new to the Navy, and, uh, the cool thing about that is—is, uh, kids that join the military now—I mean, they’re expected to do some pretty awesome stuff. You know, either jump out of a helicopter, you know, patrol Afghanistan, and, uh, it really is amazing the quality of people that we have, uh, in the services today. So I—it’s—it’s—makes proud thinking of people, uh, you know, joining [clicks touchpad], and then so—here, uh—me and my Navy buddy Harold, uh, Lavine[?]. He’s, uh, retired Navy, works at Publix, I think, in Ocoee, or somewhere around there, but we’re just trying to promote the, uh—promote the Lone Sailor Memorial, and, uh—and pass the word. So that was that. Hazen Great. Ennis [clicks touchpad] Oh [laughs]. So this—this is on the, uh—the—I think the [USS] John C. Stennis, when we were crossing the, uh—the Equator, and when you cross the Equator, you—you do—you do something that’s called a “shellback ceremony.” And if—if—if you’re not a shellback, you’re a wog, right? So this is one of the traditions in the Navy that’s maybe got a bad rap, because, uh, we’re out at sea and, uh, you know, we—we, uh—you know, they make you walk like ducks, they spray you with fire hoses. It—it’s really, uh, kinda hazing, but it’s a—it’s a mariner’s—a sailor’s tradition, right? So you get to dress up and, uh, just have a good time and, uh—but you know. Uh, Yeah. So anyway, that—that’s a shellback ceremony. So That’s where we get to dress up and do all that and that—that’s why we look the way we do [laughs]. Let’s see. Yeah. I think that’s it. Hazen Mmhmm. Ennis Yep. Hazen Great. Thank you. Ennis So… Hazen Any last comments? Ennis No, I, uh, appreciate the opportunity, and, uh, you know, I think today’s Navy is—is a better Navy than when I went through, and, uh, I just—I just hope that it continues to, uh, you know—people understand that the Navy is—is the people, right? You know, you can have the best ships, the best aircraft, but the—the people—the men and women in the services, uh, need, you know, our support, right? And as long as we remember history and remember, you know, what’s, uh—what happens, uh, I think we’ll—we’ll be good, but that’s it. Hazen Great. Ennis Yeah, well, thank you. Hazen Thank you. Ennis Yeah. <div> <div> <a title="">[1]</a> Correction: Kevin Michael Costner. </div> </div> Afghanistan Air Crew School Anti-Submarine Warfare Arthur Fonzaerlli ASW Australia Australian Special Forces Aviation Systems Operator Aviation Warfare Sensor Operator AW Ayase, Japan Cannes International Film Festival Cannes, France co-ed co-educational Community Veterans History Project Competition Week Corry Station Naval Technical Training Center Corry Station NTTC CVHP desk-top simulators dogs education Electronic Warfare enlistment Equator EW fleet replacement squadron aircrews Fonzie Gibson Glass, Jonathan Global War on Terror graduations Gulf Breeze GWOT Harold Lavine Helicopter Squadron 1 Helicopter Squadron 14 Helicopter Squadron 5 helicopters Henry Franklin Winkler Henry Winkler HS-1 HS-14 HS-5 humanitarian aid inspections instructors Jonathan Glass Jones, John Paul Kendra Hazen Little Creek, Virginia Lone Sailor Memorial Project LSMP Marc Ennis marching memorials Millington, Tennessee Mount Fuji NAS Atsugi Naval Air Facility Atsugi Naval Air Warfare Center Training Systems Division naval training NAWCTSD Operation Enduring Freedom orlando Pensacola Philippines pools Port Hueneme, California radars recruit training Recruit Training Center Orlando rescue swimmers RTC Orland SAR Search and Rescuer shellback ceremonies shellback ceremony Sikorsky SH-60/MH-60 Seahawk simulations Starboard Delta swimming terrorism The Fonz The Grinder The Guardian training typhoon reliefs U.S. Coast Guard U.S. Navy USS Blue Jacket USS Gunston Hall USS John C. Stennis veterans War in Afghanistan WAVES woman women Women Accepted for Volunteer Emergency Service Yamato, Japan https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka/files/original/9d752cd3aa575d9fec8b61845098d41a.pdf 8029e7962c673e092163f97adfd6ad89 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title UCF Community Veterans History Project Collection Description As part of RICHES of Central Florida, UCF intends to record, archive, and make accessible oral history interviews of Central Florida veterans. Diversity is a main focus for this project since there are many different subgroups under the group veterans, all with important stories. While the histories will be largely archived and made available through the UCF library, a portion will be contributed to the ongoing Veterans History Project based out of the Library of Congress. Contributor <a href="http://library.ucf.edu/about/departments/special-collections-university-archives/" target="_blank">Special Collections and University Archives</a>, University of Central Florida Libraries, University of Central Florida Alternative Title CVHP Collection Subject Veterans--Florida United States. Army Army United States. Navy Navy United States. Air Force Air Force United States. Marine Corps Marine Corps Is Part Of <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>. Language eng Type Collection Coverage Jacksonville, Florida Orlando, Florida Honolulu, Hawaii Pearl Harbor, Hawaii Great Lakes, Illinois Long Island, New York Newport, Rhode Island Norfolk, Virginia Germany Qaasuitsup, Greenland Keflavik, Southern Peninsula, Iceland Azores Islands, Portugal Mediterranean Sea Contributing Project <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a> Curator Cepero, Laura Digital Collection <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a> Source Repository <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida External Reference "<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">About the Project</a>." UCF Community Veterans History Project, RICHES of Central Florida, University of Central Florida. http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/. Has Part <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/109" target="_blank">Lone Sailor Navy Memorial History Project Collection</a>, UCF Community Veterans History Project, RICHES of Central Florida. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer Young, Mary Hughes Interviewee Levine, Lawrence "Larry" Paul Location University of Central Florida, Orlando, Florida Original Format 1 audio/video recording Duration 41 minutes and 6 seconds Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title Oral History of Lawrence Paul Levine Alternative Title Oral History, Levine Subject Veterans--Florida Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Air Force Description An oral history interview of Lawrence Paul Levine (b. 1947), who enlisted in the U.S. Air Force (USAF) in August of 1966, just after being drafted into the U.S. Army. Levine was born in Rochester, New York, on June 8, 1947. He served in Europe during the Vietnam War, until he was discharged on August 31, 1970. Levine received a Good Conduct Medal for his service. This oral history interview was conducted by Mary Hughes Young on April 1, 2014. Interview topics include Levine's background, his enlistment in the Air Force and drafting into the U.S. Army, basic and advanced training, being stations in Europe, getting married voerseas, returning to the U.S. after being discharged, and his life as a civilian afterward. Table Of Contents 0:00:00 Introduction 0:00:32 Background 0:02:38 Draft and enlistment 0:06:42 Basic training at Lackland Air Force Base 0:10:06 Sharpshooting and career assignment 0:13:52 Advanced training at Amarillo Air Force Base 0:21:16 Assignment in Europe 0:26:55 Relationships with other servicemen and assignments 0:30:15 Getting married overseas 0:31:09 Rank and discharge 0:33:30 Life after service 0:36:28 Treatment from civilians 0:37:29 How service affected civilian life 0:39:15 Closing remarks Abstract Oral history interview of Lawrence Paul Levine. Interview conducted by Mary Hughes Young at the University of Central Florida in Orlando, Florida. Type Moving Image Source <a href="http://stars.library.ucf.edu/veteransoralhistories/259/" target="_blank">Levine, Lawrence Paul</a>. Interviewed by Mary Hughes Young. April 1, 2014. Audio/video record available. <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/277/rec/1" target="_blank">Item DP0014898</a>, UCF Community Veterans History Project, Orlando, Florida. Requires <a href="http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/" target="_blank">Adobe Flash Player</a> <a href="http://java.com/en/download/index.jsp" target="_blank">Java</a> <a href="https://get.adobe.com/reader/" target="_blank">Adobe Acrobat Reader</a> Is Part Of <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, Orlando, Florida. <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/92" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project Collection</a>, RICHES of Central Florida. Has Format Digital transcript of original 41-minute and 6-second oral history: <a href="http://stars.library.ucf.edu/veteransoralhistories/259/" target="_blank">Levine, Lawrence Paul</a>. Interviewed by Mary Hughes Young. April 1, 2014. Conforms To Standards established by the <a href="http://www.loc.gov/vets/" target="_blank">Veterans History Projects</a>, Library of Congress. Coverage Rochester, New York Brown University, Providence, Rhode Island U.S. Bureau of Customs and Border Protection, Providence, Rhode Island Lackland Air Force Base, San Antonio, Texas Amarillo Air Force Base, Amarillo, Texas McGuire Air Force Base, Burlington County, New Jersey Rhein-Main Air Base, Germany Shaw Air Force Base, Sumter, South Carolina Rochester Institute of Technology, Rochester, New York Creator Levine, Larry Young, Mary Hughes Publisher <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a> Date Created 2014-04-01 Date Copyrighted 2014-04-01 Format video/mp4 application/pdf Extent 353 MB 224 MB Medium 41-minute and 6-second audio/video recording 28-page digital transcript Language eng Mediator History Teacher Civics/Government Teacher Geography Teacher Provenance Originally created by Mary Hughes Young and Larry Levine and published by <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>. Rights Holder <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a> Accrual Method Item Creation Contributing Project <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a> Curator Cepero, Laura Digital Collection <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a> Source Repository <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a> External Reference Herring, George C. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/5126110" target="_blank">America's Longest War: The United States and Vietnam, 1950-1975</a>. New York: Wiley, 1979. Transcript Unidentified Recording. Young Today [clears throat] is April the 1st[, 2014]. I am Mary Hughes Young, and I am interviewing Lawrence Paul Levine. Levine Right. Young Who served in the U.S. Air Force [sniffs]. Um, This is part of the University of Central Floride—Florida’s Community Veterans History Project, and we’re recording this interview at University of Central Florida in Orlando, Florida. Okay. Larry, tell me first about when and where you were born. Levine I was born in Rochester, New York, in 1947. Young Okay. And did you live there for all of your educational years? Levine Uh, primarily, yes. Yes. I, uh, graduated college in Rochester also, after the—after my service. Young Okay. Uh, do you have brothers or sisters? Levine Yes. I have two brothers. Young Two. So there were three of… Levine Yes. There were three of us in the family. Young Where were you in the birth order? Levine Uh, I’m the oldest. Young The oldest? Okay. What did your parents do for a living? Levine Well, my father had a number of different jobs. Uh, He was a bread salesman for Thomas’ English Muffins for a while, and then worked for a supermarket chain as one of their managers of one of their stores. Um, my mother was pretty much of a stay-at home mom. Um, She became very si—very sick, um, at a very young age and—and passed away at a very young age also. Uh… Young Okay. And how old were you when she passed away? Levine I was, uh, 20. Young 20? Okay. Levine 21. Young Uh, Were any of your family members or extended members in the military? Levine Yes. My father—my father was. He was in World War II. He, uh, was an in-flight radio operator in—at that time, was the Army Air Corps, uh, which then became the Air Force. Uh, in-flight radio operator and served over in India, going back from Karachi to Calcutta, India. Young Okay. Uh, tell me about your education before you went into the military. Levine Well, I, um, graduated high school in 1964. Uh, was accepted to Brown University, um, in Providence, Rhode Island. [clears throat] Finished one year there, and then my mother became very ill, and I had to come back home, which led me into the next phase of my life of being in the—in the military. Um, so that was prior to me going into the service. Young Okay. Uh, And why did you decide to go into the military? Levine Well, uh, because I came back home and had to help the family out. Uh, during that time, it was the Vietnam War, obviously—back in the—in the [19]60s. Um, in all honestly, I was ultimately drafted. Now, there was a[sic] interesting—very interesting story that leads up to that. Um, When I came back home, I went to work for the U.S. Customs Service. My background is primarily: I was going to school in business and accounting, and I was fortunate enough to get a job [clears throat] with the U.S. Bureau of Customs [and Border Protection] in Rochester. Uh, went to work for them full-time. Did a number of j—jobs for them, primarily in the accounting area, and also, uh, did a few clearances of planes and—and ships and that system, where I need to, in that particular area. But I worked in the, um, government, uh—in the state office building—actually, it was a Federal building. It wasn’t even a state. It was a Federal building, because it was U.S. Customs. And, uh, the draft board was right downstairs from my offices. And I became very friendly with a number of the different people who worked in the draft board, and informed them of my situation: that, uh, I was eligible for the draft, because I wasn’t going to school full-time. I was going to school part-time. Uh, they had informed me at that particular time that, “No—no worries. No problems.” That, uh, I would be safe, because I knew everybody there. And low- and behold, before I knew it, my letter from Uncle Sam came and said I was drafted. Young Okay. Levine So I went back to the [laughs]—to the, uh, draft board and said, “What happened here?” And their excuse was, “Oh, we’re sorry. It got by us,” and everything like that. So, um, in ess—in essence, I was drafted, but before I was drafted, I enlisted in the Air Force. Young Okay. Levine Okay. Young Um, and was this before the lottery was in effect? Levine No. The lottery was in effect, if I’m not mistaken. Um, the—there was a lottery, and I had a pretty, pretty low lottery number. Young Okay. Levine Meaning that I was very eligible for the draft. Uh, I wasn’t going to Canada. I wasn’t going any place, but I was informed again by the draft board that I’d be safe. And, uh, low and behold, I wasn’t. Young Okay. Because of the work you were doing? Levine No. It’s just that—because I knew people at the draft board, who said if they saw my name come up, they would pull it [laughs]. Young Oh, okay. Okay. Well, how did you feel about being drafted then? Um, was it—was it… Levine Concerned. Young A big shock? Levine Concerned. Young Okay. Okay. Levine Shock. Uh, the first thing, obviously, that came to my mind, was: Well, if you’re drafted, then you’re going into the Army. And if you go in the Army, you are going to carry a gun. If you carry a gun, you’re going to go to Vietnam. So, uh, when that—when that happened, obviously, the family was very concerned about it. And, uh… Young And so—so… Levine They didn’t want me to go. So I figured it would be best if I went into the Air Force. Young Right. And so you signed up for the Air Force… Levine Yes. Young Right after you were drafted? Levine Yes. That’s correct. Young Okay. Levine That’s correct. Young And So your family was feeling Levine Uh… Young Concerned about the situation too? Levine They were more concerned, obviously, during that whole period of time, but not as concerned if I allowed myself to be drafted in the Army. Young Into the Army. Okay. How about your, uh peers? You friends or girlfriend? How did they feel about you going into the military? Levine Uh, my friends were kind of like, Better you than me, at that particular time. Uh, I’m sure most people realized that was not the greatest time in our history for the military. Most people were looked down on in going into the military. Uh, I had some tough experiences myself with that particular situation. Uh, my girlfriend, at the time, was pretty much—said, “If you are going into the military, then I’m not waiting around for you, so,” [laughs] “I’m—I’m gone.” Young As if you had a choice, right? [laughs]. Levine Yeah. As if I had a choice. Right. Right. Young Okay. Uh, well, now you’re in the Air Force. Levine Mmhmm. Young And where did you do your basic training? Levine Uh, Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas. I was there in August of 1966. Young Okay. And, uh, what were your expectations of— being in the, uh—in basic training? Did you—did you have any idea of what was going—what it was going to be like? Levine No. I had an idea, but I didn’t—I didn’t think it would be as bad as it really was. Uh, I was in good shape at the time, okay? Young Uh huh. Levine Weighed a lot less than I do now. And, um, expected it to be a little different, uh, physically and mentally. Uh, The aspects of basic training are obviously to get you in a situation to where you are able to accept orders, and you’re able to—be able to do things when they’re—when you’re told to do them. And, uh, I accepted that without any problem. It’s just—there’s a little more physical on my body than I had anticipated. Young Okay. Can you elaborate a little bit on that? Levine Yeah. The marching… Young What was a typical day like? Levine The typical day is we get up at like five in the morning—4:30-5 o’clock in the morning, and we’d have to make our bunks and get everything straightened away for the day. We go to me—the mess hall, where we had breakfast. And that was one of the things that surprised me, because we just didn’t take our time in—in being able to eat breakfast. We were given a certain amount of time to get in line, eat our breakfast, and get ready to go outside. It was a lot shorter than I had anticipated. So, uh, my eating habits had to change very quickly, because of that. Young Hm. Levine Uh, after that, we would do either calisthenics or marching. Um, go to the gun range, which kind of surprised me, because I didn’t think I would be shooting a gun. Uh, had qualified in the—in the gun range. And had different classes on just general military, um—you know, the way of life of a—of a person in the military. Uh, Things—how to handle yourself, how to be able to, uh, you know, again, take orders, and anything that had to do with the military. Military history, all of that. Young Okay. And this—how long was your basic training? How many weeks? Levine Uh, wow. You see, I—that—I, uh—I want to say eight weeks. Young Eight weeks? Okay. Levine But it might be a little bit longer than that. I mean, that’s 40—what? 40—safe[sic] —48 years ago. And [laughs]… Young Okay. Levine [inaudible]. I really didn’t wanna do any… Young It’s not for everybody[?]. Levine Research on that. Young You know there’s an end to it. Levine Yes. Young It’s not gonna be forever. Levine That’s absolutely correct. Young Okay. Um, what were your instructors like? Levine [sniffs] I thought the meanest people in the world, okay? They didn’t take any—they didn’t take anything from anybody. Young Uh huh. Levine Um, which is what they were supposed to do. You were supposed to be there to listen to them. Them—they were, um, NCOs [non-commissioned officers], which is, uh, the equivalents of sergeants, okay? They were not officers, although the heads—some different, um, sections were—were officers—captains and—and, uh, lieutenants and that. But, um, you know… Young [inaudible]. Levine I realized after a while, that they were doing their job, and that if they were soft on us, and if we became—a situation, which we got involved in, we couldn’t be soft either. So the, um—they did their job, and I think they did it—looking back on it, I think they did a good job on ‘em. Young Okay. Uh, let’s back up a minute. Levine Sure. Young You said you didn’t think you’d have to shoot a gun Levine Mmhmm. Young But you did. Levine Right. Young And I think I noticed on your paper that you were, uh, a sharpshooter. Levine Yeah. I surprised myself, to be honest with you. Young Had you ever shot a gun before? Levine No. Young Okay. So… Levine No. Young You adapted to that well. Levine I adapted to it. Yeah. Well… Young Okay. Levine Which again, kind of concerned me. In effect, if I’m a sharpshooter, they might do something with me, other than what I wanted to do [laughs]. Young Did you receive, uh, any advanced, specialized training? Levine Not at that time. No. When we, uh—Just To—to go back a little bit, uh, historically, what led up to this: when I enlisted in the—in the Air Force—and I— don’t mean to take away what you’re—you—the questions you are asking—uh, I had to take a battery of tests… Young Mmhmm. Levine To determine where I was best fit for the Air Force. Uh, and, at that time, I was—I—I actually scored highest in the administrative area. It was like electronics, administrative, mechanical, uh—those I think—and—and just basic—basic air. So I scored highest in administrative, which I assumed that I would, because that was pretty much my background and what I wanted to do. However, at the time that I went in, and—there were no openings in the administrative field. So I said, “Well, if you don’t have anything in the administrative area, send me home. I don’t—I don’t need to come then.” Young [laughs]. Levine They said, “No. that doesn’t work that way, okay? Now, you’re going to be in the electronics field.” I said, “Okay. Electronics.” “Yeah. You know, putting wires together and all this kind of stuff. Wherever you’re needed in electronics.” You know, that’s a wide area, obviously. I said, “Okay.” and they gave me another battery of tests, and one of the tests was called the Ishihara [Color] Test—and I’m not sure if you’re fa—familiar with that? That’s the one where they have the numbers that are embedded in the different colors, so that if you’re looking at it, it is to determine if you are colorblind or not. Young Oh. Levine Well, I really botched that up big time. I think I only got two numbers out of all of them that they showed me. I just couldn’t pick out the different numbers in the blocks of different colors. So they sat back and they said “Well, hm. If you can’t pick out the numbers, how are you going to put a red wire together with a green wire or with a blue wire, and make sure it’s running properly? So you can’t go into electronics.” So I said, “Good. Send me home.” They said, “No. it doesn’t work that way.” I said, “Well, how about administrative again?” “No. we still don’t have any openings.” “Okay. So now what?” “Well, we’re going to give you your choice of what you want to do, Okay? This is the career that you’re going to have in the Air Force.” One: You can become a cook, okay? Number two: you can become a parachute rigger, okay? Putting together the parachutes for the pilots and [inaudible]. Three: you can be an air policeman, because you did qualify that [inaudible]. Or four: you can be an airframe repair specialist. So I sat back and I thought, Well, I could kill everybody with my cooking, because I couldn’t cook very well, okay? If I became a parachute rigger, god forbid if a parachute didn’t open when the pilot jumped out of the plane or whatever[?], I’d probably kill somebody that way. Air police? I says[sic], Nah. I’m not big enough to be a good air policeman, you know? I could direct traffic, but that would probably be all that I could do. So that left me with airframe repair, okay? So that’s where we’re back—that’s where—that’s a little bit about the background on my next point after basic training. Young Okay. So in basic training, you get your assignments? Levine Exactly. Young And you were assigned to be an air… Levine Airframe Repair. Young Airframe Repair? Okay. Levine That’s exactly correct. Young Okay. So that’s working on the outside of the airplane. Levine Uh, It could be the inside too. Young Oh, okay. Anything to do with the frame of an airplane? Levine Right. Young Okay, but, um—so where were you assigned after basic training? Levine I was assigned after basic training to advanced training at Amarillo Air Force Base—Texas also. I really didn’t leave Texas for my basic training and my advance training. And this was strictly was airframe repair now. Young Okay. Levine Okay? This was how—to teach me how to be, uh, an airframe repairman. Young Okay. Levine I have two left hands, so you can imagine Young [laughs]. Levine What it was like to be in Airframe Repair School [laughs]. Young Okay. And—so how long where you in Levine Uh… Young Airframe training? Levine Six months, actually. Young Six months? Okay. Levine Almost six months. It was—yeah. Young And What was your impression of this a—assignment? Levine I thought it would be just going to school, But unfortunately, it wasn’t. It was an extension of the basic training, only, to be honest with you, worse. First of all, the weather in Amarillo, Texas, was horrible. I was there during the wintertime, and it was cold and freezing, and we were doing calisthenics outside and we were running, and we were marching. And I said, This isn’t supposed to be like this. This is like I’m supposed to learn how to work on airplanes, not [laughs]—not—I said, “This was already done in basic training. Why do I—why do I gotta do that again?” “No, no, no.” And actually, they—they called them “TIs”—technical instructors—were worse in—in Airframe Repair School than they were in basic training. They were harder on us in—in, uh—in school. Young Okay. Levine So… Young How many hours would you actually be in—in training for repairs? Levine For repairs? It was about six to eight hours a day. Young So a long day? Levine Yeah. It was just on the repair. Just on airframe repairs. That wasn’t—again, the calisthenics or the marching and everything else. So it was a full day. Young Okay. And did it start early… Levine Yes. Young Like in basic training? Levine Not as early, but pretty close. Young Pretty close? Okay. Levine [laughs]. Young What did your duties entail as an airframe worker? Levine Well, again, there’s another story that goes along with that, okay? Young Tell it. Levine Uh,Well, in—in basic airframe repair, you do anything from sheet metal work to fiber glassing to, umm anything that has to do, again, with—with the frame. Ma—uh, making sure that the—that the actual plane itself is in good shape to fly, okay? From a sheet metal standpoint, and not the electronics standpoint. Obviously, that’s in another area. But, uh—this—this, again, is a—is another story. I had two left hands, as—as I had mentioned. Uh, I couldn’t hit a hammer—nail with a hammer great, and they’re putting me on working on airplanes. Well, each part of the course was a different thing you did with an—with the airframe. Riveting was one area, sheet met—cutting out certain, uh, pieces on the plane was another area. Uh, one of the areas that they had, they called them “blocks.” each one was a separate block, and what you did was you learned as part—as in the individual blocks was, uh, fiber glassing, okay? And how to fiberglass, how to use fiberglass, and how to be able to mold it on a plane were necessary things like that. I wish you could’ve seen me doing the fiberglass work. You’d—it’d—it’s a real comedy. It was a real comedy, a real joke. Young What was the, uh, difficulty in—in doing that? I don’t—I haven’t worked with fiberglass. Levine Well, it’s just mixing—mixing the ras—the resin together… Young Oh, okay. Levine So it’s the right consistency. Being able to lay out the sheets of fiberglass on there, and smooth it over, sand it down. All of these different areas are part of the—are part of the fiberglass work, okay? Young Okay. Levine So that—that—that’s—that was part of it. That was one of the blocks. Young Alright. And there were other things, like riveting classes? Levine How to use a rivet gun properly. Um, All different types—all different of things on—on, Again, using sheet metal, and using—and repairing aircraft. Young What did you like best about that? Levine Nothing [laughs]. Young Nothing? Okay. So you kind of felt like you were a... Levine I was a… Young Round peg… Levine Yes. Young In a square hole? Levine Exactly. Young [laughs]. Levine Exactly. I was not in the proper location. Young Okay. Levine And unfortunately, the Air Force didn’t realize at the time, okay? They put me through it. Young Were your instructors, um, understanding? Or… Levine Yes. Young Patient? Or… Levine They pretty—they were pretty understanding, with the exception of the one from the fiberglass area, because, uh, I ultimately did not pass the test to move on to the next phase of the Airframe Repair School. So I actually had to take a complete week all over—or, em, two weeks, I believe, or three weeks. I had to take that all over again. Young All the fiberglass work? Levine Yes. The fiberglass portion. And the other ones I had passed… Young Uh huh. Levine But the fiberglass portion, I had a very difficult time with, and, uh, I had to take that part of the program all over again. Young Okay. And then you passed it? Levine Yes. Young Okay. So now are you ready for the next, uh—for your next assignment? Levine Well, again, the reason—now, I was part of a group of students. My class, I think, was like 12 or 14 students in my class. Because I had failed the test, they moved on to the next phase, I had to wait until the next class came along to pick up with them, and to begin the fiberglass portion all over again. Young Okay. Levine Okay. Which I did. Uh, I think I had to wait a week before the next class came to the point that they were going to do the fiberglass… Young Oh, okay. I see. Levine Block. So I waved goodbye to all of my fellow students. They had gone—they had gone on to the next phase, and started it, and started the next group. Which a second time I did pass, okay? So I finished and graduated tech school, at that point. Young Okay. So you only had to wait behind two weeks, and then do you catch up with your class again? Levine No. Young No? Levine No. Then I’m involved with this next… Young Your [inaudible]? Levine New class. [inaudible]. Young Okay. Did you go through all the training you did before? Levine No. No. I just picked it up from the fiberglass portion. I’m not sure if it was the third block or the second block. I really don’t remember. Young Uh huh. Levine But then I just proceeded on with that class. Now, as they had finished block one and block two… Young Right. Levine And they went into fiber glassing. I had finished one and two, and started in with them as part of my new class, and we continued on together. Young Okay. [inaudible]. Levine So I had to meet all new students, and—and get involved with the new class. Young Can you describe an event that wasn’t typical in this particular time of your training? You’re in the six months training now. Is there anything that happened that wasn’t typical of an everyday experience or—that you can think of? Levine Mm. Not really. No. It was just pretty much—cou—can’t wait to get out and get an assignment type of situation. And, um, I—Like I said, I did the very best I can. I knew I had no choice, and, uh, I was able to pass and continue on. But it was pretty much the same routine. The only difference that we had was that we had, uh, leave on the weekends, and we were able to go into Amarillo, which There’s not much there. So we did have leave—we did have leave time then. It wasn’t like a seven days a week type of training. Young Okay.So not really anything memoral—memorable during this time? Levine Not really. No. Young Okay. So at six—when you finished that six-month training… Levine Mmhmm. Young What happened then? Levine ‘Nother interesting point. I guess—I guess I had more interesting points than I thought I did. When I, um, came out of my next—with my new class, my previous class had gone on. And of course. they graduated from the technical school before I did. They all got their orders, and the entire class got orders for Vietnam, okay? So if I was in that class, I would have ended up going to Vietnam, at the time. My situation was, when I graduated and I saw my orders posted, I got sent to Europe [laughs]. So… Young That’s interesting Levine It is. It was lu—very lucky. Uh… Young At that point, you weren’t too [inaudible] —too very sorry that you weren’t very adept to… Levine No. Not really. But of course, you know, that can change—that can change at any time also. But, uh, quite a relief on my family’s part, to say the least. Young Right. Levine Um, It—it was—it was very, [laughs] very interesting time, believe me. So I was sent to Europe, uh, in what they called a “TDY outfit,” which was temporary duty assignments. Now, I was assigned to work on a [McDonnell Douglas] F-4 [Phantom II] aircraft. they called it the “phantom jet.” I worked on [McDonnell] F-101s [Voodoo], [Republic F-]105s [Thunderchief], uh, various different types of programs. My basic job was to work on the outboard tanks and pylons. The pylons were, uh, the apparatus that held the bomb racks on. So we were working on putting on bomb racks on the different types of aircraft, and they would then go over to Vietnam. Young Okay. Levine Now… Young So you were specialized in your duties? Levine Yes. Yes. We were—we became specialized in our duties. Now, the government, at the time—again, we were set up as a temporary duty assignment. We had—had to go from base to base to work on these different aircraft. The government thought that it would be cheaper for us to travel in groups and work on these tanks and pylons, because the point of the—with these jets are: they had the jettison their outboard tanks and their pylon or bomb racks when they took off after their bombing runs. Because if they kept those on, it would add weight to the plane itself, in which case, they couldn’t get away—get away as quick, uh, without them. So they were continuously jettisoning these, and when they would come back to—to Europe, we’d have to refit them with new ones, and make—and—and get them all set up for them to go out again. Even though most of them were based right in Vietnam or Thailand and that[?], um, they still came for—for, uh, overall maintenance back to the, uh—back to Europe. Young Okay. Levine So… Young Where in Europe were you? Levine Okay. I was in, uh, Turkey, Italy, Greece, Libya, England, Spain, and my home base was in Germany, okay? That’s where we worked out of. We worked out of Rhein-Main [Air Base], Germany, in, uh, Frankfurt [am Main, Hesse, Germany], okay? So that’s where my main outfit was. It was Detachment 51. Young Okay. And that’s[sic] the ones you graduated with? Levine No. Young [inaudible]. Levine Actually, some—Most of them—most of them did go on to that, but I think there were about six or seven that went to different, uh— areas, okay? Uh, that’s another [laughs]—again, that’s another interesting point. Uh, When I flew over from, uh, New Jersey—McGuire Air Force Base. I left out of McGuire Air Force Base. It’s—it’s a funny story. There were like three planes lined up taking all of us over to Europe. There were two commercial airliners, and then there was what they called a “C-141 Galaxy.” And I said, “Oh, I’m going to go over to Europe in a nice, uh, airliner,” and I ended up going over on a military aircraft, sitting in the seats on the sides [laughs]. So it was kind of a bumpy ride over there. But when I landed, my orders were to catch up with my unit in what they called—in a place called Chaumont[, Haute-Marne], France, okay? So I landed at Rhein-Main Air Force Base, Germany, caught a shuttle, uh—a military shuttle. Uh, it wasn’t a plane. It was a bus, alright? Down to Chaumont, France. Caught up with my, eh—with my group down there, okay? With my detachment down there. And I noticed as I went into—to the offices to report in, that they’re packing up everything. And I went and signed in, and I said to the desk sergeant or whatever his name was, “What—what’s going on,” okay? “I was told to report here.” They said, “Well, we’re leaving.” I said, “Why are you leaving?” Well, at that time, France was not in the best, you know, of friends with the—with the United States. And, uh, this is part of the NATO [North Atlantic Treaty Organization] Pact, and we were—we were leaving out of France. And I said, “Oh,” I said, “So we’re not going to stay in France?” “No.” “Well, where are we going?” He said, “Rhein-Main Air Force Base in Germany.” I said, “Wait a minute. I just came from there.” [laughs] I said, “I just took a bus and came from Rhein-Main.” Young Going to your official[?] [inaudible]. Levine “Why didn’t anybody tell—why didn’t anybody tell me that I was going to go back to—I would never have left I would have waited for ya there.” Well, as it turned out, we went—we went back to Rhein-Main, and, um, set up shop there, and, uh, proceeded to travel all over Europe, and—and working on these tanks and pylons and—and getting them set, so that they—we can put ‘em on the planes, and they can take off. Young Did you have a schedule for where you would be and… Levine Yes. Young How… Levine Yes. We had orders every—every time. Uh… Young And how did that work? Or—or did you not know ahead of time? Levine Um, when we finished one assignment, we’d come back for a while, and, uh, work around… Young Always back to Germany? Levine Back to Germany. Right. Young Okay. Levine And then get our—get our next assignment when we were told to go out… Young Okay. Levine Again. Young What was your relationship with the oth—other service personnel that you worked directly with on the pylons? Levine Oh, we, uh—we had a good relationship. I mean, we were a unit. We pretty much hung around together. Uh, when we had time, we played softball, uh, on—in a league on base. And again, I was a lot, a lot thinner [laughs] back then. And, uh, we had—we had a good time. I mean, it was pretty much a regular eight-hour day, okay? Uh, if—whether or not it was at the—at the base that we were at, or at our home base in Germany. There was—every once in a while, we had assignments. Outside of our unit, was the, uh, uh Boeing 707—I think it was, um, at the time. It was the General of the Air Force’s plane, uh, of Europe Young Mmhmm. Levine Okay. Uh, [inaudible]. It was the General’s plane—his personal plane—was out there. Actually, come to think of it now, it was the [Boeing] KC-135 [Stratotanker] —was—which was an inflight re-fueler, where those, you know—the planes come up to it, and they drop the boom in that. Well, this was a converted KC-135 for the General. Really nice, nice plane. And we had work on that every once in a while, changing some things, and, you know, making sure that everything was okay. Young When you were, uh, at base, or on these assignments, were you always busy? Or were there times that you didn’t—were waiting for the next assignment? Levine Uh, No. We were busy most of the time. We were busy most of the time. I mean, once again, it was pretty much and eight-hour day, and when we were done, we had—we were free to do whatever we wanted. It was just, uh, like a normal job, except we worked [inaudible]… Young Okay. But there wasn’t a lot of just sit around and wait? Levine No, no, no, no. Young Okay. How did you stay in touch with your family and friends back home? Levine Well, at that time, I was—there—there was no such thing as Skype, or, uh, e-mail, and things like that. So it was pretty much by letter. Just by regular letter. Sna—snail mail. Young Snail mail. Levine [laughs]. Young Uh, do you believe you were well-trained for your assignment? Levine As best as they could, considering what they had to deal with [laughs]. Young Uh, did you always have the equipment and the supplies that you needed… Levine Yes. Young To do your job? Levine Yes. That—that we had no trouble—we had no trouble with. Young And you mentioned you played softball. Levine Mmhmm. Young How else did you entertain yourself when you weren’t on duty? Levine Mm. Well, I’d say drink [laughs]. Um, Just going to different, uh—go to the USO [United Service Organization] over there, and saw stag shows, and had one—one or two beers—four or five. Young Was there a USO show that was particularly memorable? Levine Yes. The Platters. The original Platters were there. And, um, I—I liked them from the beginning, and I was very fortunate to meet ‘em, and, uh, listen—they put on a great show. Young Uh huh.Was that in Germany? Or in one of your other assignments? Levine No. That was in Germany. Young Okay. Levine It was in Germany [sniffs]. But When I—I was in Spain, uh, over one of the New Year’s [Eve]. I was in, uh, Madrid, Spain, and got and to see a flamenco show there. A real, real flamenco show, which was pretty good. Young Did you take advantage of any, uh, sightseeing, or… Levine Oh, yes. Young Or tours… Levine Yes. Young When you were there? Levine Yes. Young Okay. That would be entertaining [inaudible] Levine Actually, um, I got married while—while I was overseas. Young Uh huh. Levine And my wife was in the States. She was a—she was an American. She was German—born German, but, um, I married—I got married. And she was able to come over to Europe and get a job in Germany, while I was gone. Fortunately enough, she, um, uh spoke German. So she was able to get around the economy very nicely while I was gone, because I was gone most of the time. Young Uh huh. Levine But it was nice to have her over there. And when—when I was back there, we were able to travel around. Young Oh, nice. Levine We were able to go to Holland,<a title="">[1]</a> and, uh, visit a lot of Germany. Go around—go around Germany. Young That’s a—that’s very, uh—very nice thing to have happened… Levine Mmhmm. Young While you’re Levine Mmhmm. Young Young, and, uh—and not a lot of money… Levine Right. Exactly. Young You cantravel around on… Levine Exactly. Young Uh, Uncle Sam’s dime. Levine Mmhmm. Young Uh, when were you—tell me about your ranking and how that—and how you… Levine Well, actually, I became a sergeant. Young You ended up a staff sergeant. Levine Uh, pardon me? Young You ended up as a staff sergeant. I saw on your… Levine Yeah. It was a… Young Okay. You start off as a—tell me how that works. Levine Well, you just go in as an airman. Young Okay. Levine Okay. And then, at that time, it was, um, second class, first class, and sergeant. Young Okay. Levine Actually, I think I mis—misstated. Um, I was three stripes, which was considered a sergeant at the time. Young Uh huh. Levine Okay. Four stripes is a staff sergeant, so… Young Okay. Levine I made three. If I had reenlisted, I probably would have gotten a fourth stripe. Young Okay. Alright. So you ended up as a sergeant? Levine Right. Young Okay. And, um, when were you discharged from the military? Levine August of 1970. When I rotated back from the States, I, uh, was stationed in, uh, Shaw Air Force Base in Sumter, South Carolina, which was about 7-8 months. So I lived in South Carolina, outside of Columbia. Young And how long were you there? Levine I think it was 7-8 months. Something like that. Young Seven—okay. Um, how did you feel once you were out of the military? Levine Relieved. Um, Glad I did what I did. Uh, kind of—Kind of upset as to what was going on, while I was in the military, back home with the individual tour—“pacifists,” I guess you call them—or against the war in Vietnam. I mean, I was not all in favor of what was going on, but, uh, when I did come home on leave at one time, uh, it was not ver— it was not a very good situation. I mean, we were—for all intents and purposes, we were spat at, at the airports, when we walked through. Nobody said, “Thank you for your service.” And, uh, they just didn’t like it. They didn’t like anybody in the military, or anybody in uniform. So that—that kind of part was tough. Um, Again, I was relieved. But on the other hand, I felt that all of my friends—I was the only one of all my friends back in Rochester. I was the only one to go into the military, and felt that I was four years behind them in education and—and, um—and just getting on with my life. So, you know, it—both sides. I felt good with serving, but on the other hand, I felt that I lost some time. Young Um, once you were out, what did you do? Levine [sniffs] Another good, interesting situation. Uh, when I got out of the service, my wife became pregnant [laughs]. And, uh, it was probably from the week I got discharged [laughs] Young Uh huh. Levine She—she got pregnant. In which case, if she got pregnant while we were in the military, the government would have paid for it. If she had given birth while I was in, the military would have paid for it. But I, uh—when I got out of the service, my main goal was to get back to school. I wanted to get my degree in accounting and—and go on from there. But a little s—s—little turn of events when your wife becomes pregnant. Going to day school is pretty difficult. So I took a job. um, and again, I got out in August, and, uh, school was going to start in September, but I was gonna take—go to night school, okay? And—and get a job during the day. But until that time started, I went to work at McDonald’s, uh, slinging hamburgers. See, eh, eh, my memory’s coming back. I was going to go to day school. Young Uh huh. Levine So I wasn’t going to enroll until September, but I needed some—to get some income coming in, uh, for my wife and that. So I went to work at McDonald’s slinging hamburgers, which was not a great experience. Because here’s an older gentleman, who’s, uh, slinging hamburgers with a bunch of teenagers, and looking at me, thinking, Boy, he must be a real loser if he’s doing this, not knowing the situation. But I got the job in telling ‘em that I was going to—I wanted to go to school training to become a manager at McDonald’s. This is how I got the job. And, uh, the owner of the place said, “Okay.” He said, “But you—but in order to do that, you have to learn all the different areas of—of McDonald’s.” French fries, working on the grill, the clean-up, the whole bit. . I said, “Okay.” Well, that lasted about a week—week and a half—and I just couldn’t handle it anymore. I would come home smelling terrible from all the fat that was in the French fries. So that lasted maybe a week—week and a half. But we managed. Um, and I did start going to school, but things got to a point where I just needed to get money. So I went—I was going back to night school. I went to night school, and got a job. Uh, at that time, [sniffs] I was working, I believe, at one of the local manufacturing companies in their finance department. I was working in their cost accounting department. Even though I didn’t have a degree, they—they put me on as—in a lower level type of position. But it was bringing in income, and I—I was able to go to school at night. Young And where was this, Larry? Levine Rochester Institute of Technology. Young Oh, you were back in… Levine Yeah. Young Back in New York. Levine I was back in Rochester. I went back to New York. Young Okay. Were you—were there any G.I.<a title="">[2]</a> benefits Levine Yes. Young That you were able to take advantage of? Levine Yes. Absolutely. I was on the G.I. Bill.<a title="">[3]</a> Helped me pay for my schooling. Yes. Definitely. Young Okay. And so you’re working in the daytime and… Levine Mmhmm. Young And going to school at night. Levine Right. Young Okay. Levine Mmhmm. Young And, uh, we talked about how you were treated… [background noise] Young When you came home, and that, um, there was, um, uh, disrespect… Levine Mmhmm. Young Dor you as a soldier. Now… Levine Right. Young Was that set across the board every time you came home on leave? Or, uh, did you notice that when you would go to New York? Or when you would go—when you came back to South Carolina? Was there a difference in the way the local people treated you? Levine Not really. No. Not that I can remember. It was just an area that they didn’t go out of their way to—to do anything. More like they were trying to ignore us, then, um—like we were the—the plague. Young Mmhmm. Levine Okay. And just no—no respect. No respect for anyone. And that’s what makes me feel so good now is that you’re seeing these, uh, individuals in the military, and people are giving them respect and thanking them for their service. So that’s one of the areas where I—I felt cheated out of also—is not getting the respect and that, because it was four years of my life, and that’s a long time. Young It is a long time, especially at that age. Levine Right. Exactly. Young Uh, did your military experience affect your civilian life in any way? Levine I became more appreciative of life. Um, More appreciative of the things that I—that I was able to get, uh, of—of my family at the time. Because being away from them most of the—now fortunately, like I said, my wife was able to come with—to come with me over to Europe, but, uh, I missed my brothers and my—and my father. My mother had passed away prior to that, so, uh—but, yeah. Uh, a lot of things, uh—a lot of things that I was more appreciative of, at the time. Young Do you think that you were more serious in your education than you would have been as a 20… Levine Most definitely. Most definitely. That’s a very good point. I looked at my education totally different. Uh, more—I—I was more involved with history. Um, I—I didn’t feel at the time—you see, there was a lot—a lot difference in going to school and being, pretty much, made to go to school, or that—that was the norm. You—you went to high school. You finished high school. You went to college and then you went on from there. And because of the interruption, I looked at it from a different stand point that, you know, this is an opportunity. This is a great opportunity, and, uh, the government is helping me with this opportunity, through the G.I. Bill. I’m going to take full advantage of it. So I took full courses. And if anybody knows about Rochester, New York, and going to school at night in Rochester, New York, in the middle of winter is not easy. Okay. It was cold. It was freezing. It was snowing. But, uh, I had a family to support, and I wanted to be able to get my education, so Luckily, I was able to complete it. Young Okay. Looking back on it all, can you describe about how you feel about your service? You said that you were glad you did it… Levine Mmhmm. Mmhmm. Young And anything else you want to add to that? Levine No. Other—other than the fact that, um, I personally think that it makes a—a person better going into the military. And I for one, feel that it should be mandatory, because there’s a lot of kids that are going to—to education and that, because they don’t know what else to do. Young And so you feel it… Levine Okay. And I think when they say it—when they say… Young Gives them time to mature and… Levine I’m sorry. What’s that? Young It gives them time to mature… Levine Absolutely. Young And to learn… Levine Absolutely. Young A little about the world and… Levine And to grow up… Young And to grow up. Levine And to grow up… Young And to learn some discipline [laughs]. Levine Yes. That’s the other area. That’s the other area. Like I said, so many don’t know what they want to do with themselves, and they end up in the military. Although they didn’t give me the opportunity to go in the direction that I wanted to. It certainly opened up my eyes to a lot of things. And one is independence. You know, being independent, being able to do things on your own, uh, washing your own clothes, making your own bed, uh, choosing the right things to do. Young Did you become more adept to working with your hands? Levine I wish I could say yes [laughs]. Young [laughs] Some things you just can’t learn. Levine Some things that you—you have a difficult time doing. That’s correct. Um, I think I’m a little better with a hammer and nails now than I was. I wouldn’t go as far as work with any kind of sheet metal or anything, because I’m sure I would cut my fingers up in shreds, but Yeah. I think I’m a little bit better. I can—I can… Young Well, Larry, I thank you for your service. And I thank you for this—for you doing this… Levine Well, it was a pleasure. Young With us. Levine Very enjoyable. Very enjoyable. Young And, uh, I enjoyed talking with you about it. Levine Mmhmm. Thank you. Thank you. <div> <div> <a title="">[1]</a> Formally called The Netherlands. </div> <div> <a title="">[2]</a> Government Issue or General Issue. </div> <div> <a title="">[3]</a> Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944. </div> </div> Click to View (Movie, Podcast, or Website) <a href="http://stars.library.ucf.edu/veteransoralhistories/259/" target="_blank">Levine, Lawrence Paul</a> accounting advanced training Airframe Repair School airframe repair specialists airframe repairman airframe repairmen airplanes Amarill, Texas Amarillo AFB Amarillo Air Force Base anti-war movement basic training Boeing 707 Boeing KC-135 Stratotanker Brown University BU Bureau of Customs and Border Protection Burlington County, New Jersey C-141 Galaxy colorblindness Community Veterans History Project conscription Custom Service CVHP Detachment 51 draft board draft lottery drafts education enlistment Europe F-101 F-105 F-4 fast food restaurants fiber glassing fiberglass firearms Frankfurt am Main, Germany G.I. Bill Germany Good Conduct Medal gun ranges guns instructors Ishihara Color Test jet jet fighter jets KC-135 Lackland AFB Lackland Air Force Base Larry Levine Lawrence Paul Levin marching marriages Mary Hughes Young McDonald's McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II McDonnell F-101 Voodoo Mcguire AFB Mcguire Air Force Base metal military draft military education military training pacifism pacifists peace movement phantom jets planes protests Providence, Rhode Island pylon Republic F-105 Thunderchief Rhein-Main AB Rhein-Main Air Base RIT riveting Rochester Institute of Technology Rochester, New York San Antonio, Texas Selective Service System Sergeant Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944 sharpshooters sharpshooting Shaw AFB Shaw Air Force Base sheet metal Staff Sergeant Sumter, South Carolina TDY temporary duty The Platters TI training U.S. Air Force U.S. Air Force in Europe U.S. Army U.S. Army Air Corps U.S. Bureau of Customs and Border Protection U.S. Customs Service United Service Organization USAFE USO veterans Vietnam Vietnam War World War II WWII https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka/files/original/99f982aa4276b0be0b4f9b69c9e7085a.pdf 3533161dc69dab00593f352cd8d77806 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title UCF Community Veterans History Project Collection Description As part of RICHES of Central Florida, UCF intends to record, archive, and make accessible oral history interviews of Central Florida veterans. Diversity is a main focus for this project since there are many different subgroups under the group veterans, all with important stories. While the histories will be largely archived and made available through the UCF library, a portion will be contributed to the ongoing Veterans History Project based out of the Library of Congress. Contributor <a href="http://library.ucf.edu/about/departments/special-collections-university-archives/" target="_blank">Special Collections and University Archives</a>, University of Central Florida Libraries, University of Central Florida Alternative Title CVHP Collection Subject Veterans--Florida United States. Army Army United States. Navy Navy United States. Air Force Air Force United States. Marine Corps Marine Corps Is Part Of <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>. Language eng Type Collection Coverage Jacksonville, Florida Orlando, Florida Honolulu, Hawaii Pearl Harbor, Hawaii Great Lakes, Illinois Long Island, New York Newport, Rhode Island Norfolk, Virginia Germany Qaasuitsup, Greenland Keflavik, Southern Peninsula, Iceland Azores Islands, Portugal Mediterranean Sea Contributing Project <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a> Curator Cepero, Laura Digital Collection <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a> Source Repository <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida External Reference "<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">About the Project</a>." UCF Community Veterans History Project, RICHES of Central Florida, University of Central Florida. http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/. Has Part <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/109" target="_blank">Lone Sailor Navy Memorial History Project Collection</a>, UCF Community Veterans History Project, RICHES of Central Florida. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer McKinney, Roy Interviewee Ekern, Sharon Location Orlando, Florida Original Format 1 Digital (DAT) audio/video recording Duration 20 minutes and 14 seconds Bit Rate/Frequency 64kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title Oral History of Sharon L. Ekern Alternative Title Oral History, Ekern Subject Veterans--Florida Marine Corps Description An oral history interview of Sharon Ekern, who served in the U.S. Marine Corps (USMC) from 1981 to1990 and now works at the University of Central Florida (UCF) with the Student Development and Enrollment Service. This interview was conducted by Roy McKinney at UCF on November 13, 2014. Interview topics include Ekern's family life, her education, enlistment in the Marines, boot camp, advanced training, her first duty station, the San Diego Recruit Depot, Parris Island, the Cold War, being assigned to Orlando, serving as a female Marine, the Tailhook Scandal, Camp Smith, her awards and medals, life after service, her employment at UCF, and being an expert markswoman. Table Of Contents 0:00:00 Introduction 0:00:40 Family life 0:01:05 Family in the Military 0:01:19 Education before joining the Marine Corps 0:01:45 Reason for enlistment in the Marines 0:02:30 Family reaction to enlistment 0:02:49 Boot camp 0:03:42 View of instructors - then and now 0:04:26 Most memorable experience in boot camp 0:04:59 Being a woman in boot camp 0:05:20 Advanced training 0:06:01 First duty station 0:06:24 Role at first duty station 0:06:37 Typical day at first duty station 0:07:20 Life at San Diego Recruit Depot 0:08:00 How Parris Island compared to San Diego 0:08:20 Cold War's effect on Military life 0:08:59 Entertainment in the Military 0:09:55 Assignment in Orlando 0:11:10 Being a woman in the Marine Corps/ "Tailhook" 0:12:55 Memorable moments at Camp Smith 0:14:07 Leaving the Military 0:14:58 Reason for leaving the Marines rather than applying to Officer Program 0:15:31 Highest rank in the Marines 0:15:51 Awards and medals 0:16:33 Life after the Marines 0:17:04 Joining UCF 0:17:04 Contracting and purchasing 0:17:50 Contact with Marines 0:18:06 Military influence on life 0:18:37 Utilizing military experience with UCF 0:19:15 Expert marksmanship Abstract Oral history interview of Sharon Ekern. Interview conducted by Roy McKinney in Orlando, Florida. Type Moving Image Source <a href="http://stars.library.ucf.edu/veteransoralhistories/324/" target="_blank">Ekern, Sharon L.</a> Interviewed by Roy McKinney. Audio/video record available. <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, RICHES of Central Florida, University of Central Florida, Orlando, Florida. Requires Multimedia software, such as <a href="http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/" target="_blank"> QuickTime</a>. <a href="https://get.adobe.com/reader/" target="_blank">Adobe Acrobat Reader</a> Is Part Of <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, RICHES of Central Florida, University of Central Florida, Orlando, Florida. <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/24" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project Collection</a>, RICHES of Central Florida. Has Format Digital transcript of original 20-minute and 14-second oral history: <a href="http://stars.library.ucf.edu/veteransoralhistories/324/" target="_blank">Ekern, Sharon L.</a> Interviewed by Roy McKinney. Audio/video record available. <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, RICHES of Central Florida, University of Central Florida, Orlando, Florida. Conforms To Standards established by the <a href="http://www.loc.gov/vets/" target="_blank">Veterans History Projects</a>, Library of Congress. Coverage Albany, Georgia Camp H. M. Smith, Aiea, Hawaii Marine Corps Base Camp Lejeune, Jacksonville, North Carolina Marine Corps Recruit Depot San Diego, San Diego, California Marine Corps Recruit Depot Parris Island, Port Royal, South Carolina University of Central Florida, Orlando, Florida Creator Ekern, Sharon L. McKinney, Roy Publisher <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a> Date Created 2014-11-13 Date Copyrighted 2014-11-13 Format application/pdf Extent 599 MB 164 KB Medium 20-minute and 14-second Digital (DAT) audio/video recording 13-page digital transcript Language eng Mediator History Teacher Civics/Government Teacher Economics Teacher Geography Teacher Provenance Originally created by Roy McKinney and Sharon L. Ekern and published by <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>. Rights Holder <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a> Accrual Method Item Creation Contributing Project <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a> Curator Cravero, Geoffrey Digital Collection <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a> External Reference Pawelczyk, J. 2014. "<a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/5611524379" target="_blank">Constructing American Female War Veterans' Military Identity in the Context of Interviews</a>." Women and Language: WL. 37, no. 1: 87-112. Chema, J. Richard. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/227212744" target="_blank">Arresting Tailhook The Prosecution of Sexual Harassment in the Military</a>. Thesis (LL. M.)--Judge Advocate General's School, United States Army, 1993, 1993. Browne, Kingsley R. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/795374552" target="_blank">Military Sex Scandals from Tailhook to the Present: The Cure Can Be Worse than the Disease</a>. Duke Journal of Gender Law & Policy. Duke University School of Law, 2007. Biank, Tanya. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/795168521" target="_blank">Undaunted: The Real Story of America's Servicewomen in Today's Military</a>. New York, N.Y.: NAL Caliber, 2013. Click to View (Movie, Podcast, or Website) <a href="http://stars.library.ucf.edu/veteransoralhistories/324/" target="_blank">Ekern, Sharon L.</a> Transcript McKinney Today is the 13th of November, 2014. My name is Roy McKinney and we are interviewing Dr. Sharon [L.] Ekern. She served in the United States Marine Corps from 1981 to1990 and now works at the University of Central Florida with the Student Development and Enrollment Service. I am interviewing Dr. Sharon Ekern as part of the University of Central Florida’s Community Veterans History Project. This interview is being conducted in Orlando, Florida. McKinney Where and when were you born? Ekern Union, South Carolina. September 18th, 1962. McKinney What did you parents do for a living? Ekern My dad retired from AT&T, and my mom, um, who has been passed away for—gosh—uh, 28 years today, as a matter of fact. She worked for the attorney general of South Carolina. McKinney How big was your family growing up? Ekern It was my parents and two sisters. McKinney Were any of your family members in the Military? Ekern Yes. Um, my stepfather was full time National Guard. My uncle is a retired Navy captain, and I have a couple other uncles who served in the Air Force and Navy. McKinney What type of education did you have before entering the Marine Corps? Ekern Uh, I went to a small, um, junior college, right out of high school, and was there for two semesters. So I had basically one year of college. McKinney Was there any focus of your studies while there? Ekern No, not really. McKinney Uh, why did you decide to enlist in the Marines? Ekern Uh, I had decided during that second semester that I wasn’t ready for college at that time, and I had moved to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, where my grandparents had retired, and there was an Air Force Base there. Uh, so I had met some Air Force friends and decided at that point that I would join the Air Force. And then when I went to MEPs [United States Military Entrance Processing Command] to do my processing, they couldn’t take me until like maybe the following year. It was maybe nine months, and I wanted to leave in the fall when my friends would be going back to school. So, um, I basically—when I got—when I was there at MEPs, I told them to take me to see the Marines. That—I didn’t want to go in the Army. I didn’t like the uniform that the Navy wore. So... McKinney How did your family relac—react to you enlisting? Ekern Eh, well, they had just got used to the idea of me joining the Air Force, so when I came home and told them I was going in to the Marines, Um, it took a little while, especially for my mother and grandmother to get used to that idea. McKinney And where did you go to boot camp? Ekern Parris Island, South Carolina. McKinney How did you feel when you entered boot camp and the whole process of going through—just getting there and your first reactions? Ekern I was scared to death. Um, my processing station MEPs was in Colombia, South Carolina. And it wasn’t that—maybe two hours or so. We shipped out on a bus to Parris Island, and I was the only female on the bus. and, um, the person at MEPs had, um, gi—given my package to somebody, uh—to one of the guys that was also, uh, sh—shipping out that day, and he got off the bus with my information with this drill instructor just, you know—he came on the bus and was yelling at them get on the yellow footprints. And then I had to get off the bus and go—and go tell him, you know, that somebody had my package. So I was scared to death. McKinney How did you feel about you instructors? Ekern Um, how I felt about them now and how I felt about them then is probably different. Um… McKinney How about both? Ekern Yeah. I was—they kind of played different roles. There was one who was more like the motherly type, and one who was just downright mean, and the other one, who was kind of in between. Um, I was really scared of the one that was just mean, you know? I—I’ve actually been in contact recently with our senior drill instructor on Facebook, so it has been kind of nice, um, you know, touching base with her again. She retired—gosh—after—I don’t know—maybe 25 years in the Marine Corps, there at Parris Island. So… McKinney So what was your most memorable experience at boot camp? Ekern At boot camp? Gosh. Um, probably the physical training. I, you know—I’ve always been, um—well, probably, more so since. I’ve gotten out. I’ve been athletic, but I don’t know that I was totally prepared when I went in, so that was difficult—the ph—the physical training. So that was probably one of my more memorable. McKinney How did being a woman affect you in boot camp? Ekern Well, in the Marines, we’re totally separate. I know in some of the, um—maybe all of the other branches—they train together, but we don’t. We’re a separate battalion and, uh, we have no contact with the men. So we were all just together. McKinney Did you receive any advanced training? Ekern Yeah. I went to several schools. Um, I went to a school right out of boot camp in Albany, Georgia. Um, then I went to my first duty station in San Diego. And, I believe, it was after—yeah. It was—it was after I—no. Maybe it wasn’t San Diego—where I went to another, um, supply school at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. And then after I came to Orlando, I went into the contracting and purchasing field and went to several schools. They were at Lowry Air Force Base, because, at the time, the Marines didn’t have a contracting school so we went to the Air—Air Force schools. McKinney So where were you stationed after you were done with training? Ekern My first duty station was the Marine Corps Recruit Depot in San Diego. And then, from there I came here to Orlando to the, uh, recruiting headquarters. I was not a recruiter. I did supply, but I—I was at headquarters. And then from there, I went to Camp [H. M.] Smith in [Aiea,] Hawaii. McKinney What was your assignment or job while you were there? Ekern Uh, I started out in supply and, like I said at some point, uh, in my career, I changed to contracts and purchasing. McKinney And, uh, what was a typical day like for you? Ekern We usually got—usually PT [physical training] was, you know, the first thing we did at least three days a week, if not more. Um, you know, we’d have—PT was around six A.M. and then have to be at work at 7:30. Most days were like typical work day. You know, you went to work, you had your lunch—you know, you got off at a certain time. There were other days when there might be inspections or parades or, you know, other things that might be going on. But ordinarily it was like a typical work day. McKinney Can you describe what it was like working at the Marine—Marine Corps Recruitment Depot at Parris Island? Ekern Well, I didn’t work there. That’s where—that’s where I received recruit training. McKinney Okay. Can you describe what it was like working at San Dieg—the depot in San Diego? Ekern Yeah. It was—I mean—San Diego, of course, is beautiful. And, um, it was good. Um, out there they only trained male Marines. They don’t—they don’t train any women Marines out there, but, um, it was, uh—I think it was a—you know, it was a good first duty station, uh, working with all of the recruits and, um, doing the different, you know, jobs that were assigned to me at the time. And then I worked for a colonel, just in his office, for a good bit of my time there. McKinney How did the environments of Parris Island and San Diego compare? Ekern Um, well, I mean—it was two totally different experiences. At Parris Island, I was a recruit, you know. I was going through recruit training and at MCRD [Marine Corps Recruit Depot]. I was—I was basically working there. I was a Marine at that point. So totally different experiences. McKinney How did the Cold War affect everyday life in the Military? Ekern Um, hmm. I would say, at least for me and my job, um, you know, it di—didn’t have a big effect. We basically did what we were, you know, assigned to do at, um—at the recruit depot. It was training Marines at the, uh, MCRD—I mean, at, um, the recruiting headquarters here, it was enlisting Marines. So, um, in my everyday job, I wouldn’t say it had a big effect. McKinney How would you entertain yourselves, uh, during your service? Ekern Well, um, hmm. Let me think back on that. Uh, like I said, it was—since I wasn’t a—a grunt, per se, you know, um, I left and I went home most days, unless there was something special going on, or we were out in the field, or had some special training. So, you know, I think we did pretty much what everybody would do. When I was in, um—here at the recruit station, I had a child. So, you know, I had a family just like most people and I did live in base housing. So it was—it’s a different community, Um—a different culture. But I would say we did what most people would do. McKinney Why were you assigned to the recruitment headquarters in Orlando? Ekern I’m not exactly sure. Uh—we have what’s called a “monitor” in the Marines, and they decide where you’re going to be—be stationed. And, um, they just decide based on when it’s time for you to depart a duty station and what the needs are. Um, you can put in for several different things, um—several different duty stations. And this was just one that I had, you know, put in for that needed a supply person at the time. So I was fortunate enough to, you know, be stationed here. McKinney Where else did you, um, apply for a duty station at? Ekern Gosh, you know, I really don’t remember. Um, I know one of them was in Georgia, because I’m in South Carolina. And I can’t recall now where—oh, Macon, Georgia, I believe it was, because it had a recruiting headquarters there. Um, I thought it’d be nice to be somewhat close to home. Um, but besides that, I really don’t recall. McKinney Were you excited when you were assigned to Orlando? Or how did—how did you feel about the… Ekern Yeah. I was excited. Um, I was excited about the job. I mean it is a bit different being in a recruiting headquarters with maybe 15 Marines ver—versus being on a base full of Marines. Uh, so it was going to be something different. And yeah. I was excited about coming to Florida. McKinney What was it like being a woman in the Marine Corps? Ekern Um, hmm [laughs]. It could be different at times. Um, the period that I was in was before Tailhook [Scandal]—if you’ve ever even heard of “Tailhook.” No? McKinney No. Ekern It was a big sexual harassment scandal, uh, that occurred soon after I got out of the Marine Corps. But when I was in, um, basically, sexual harassment—it was—it wasn’t something that you heard about. So—and women at that time, um, depending on where you were and who you worked with—most men—I won’t say most. Some men made it very clear that didn’t think women should be in their Marine Corps. And so it was—it could be difficult at times. I feel like you always had to, um, you know—you had to be the one to give 110 percent, you know, if you were out on runs or just in your everyday job just to prove yourself. McKinney Was there any time that you felt that you had to prove yourself to someone that was—that looked down on you as a woman in the Marine Corps? Ekern Oh, yeah. Yeah. McKinney Is there any—any example that you can—you can tell us? Ekern Um, hmm. I don’t know that I can think of just something—like a particular example. It was more the comments—the everyday comments. Um, it was the things—when we did have to go out on marches or runs, and there were women who couldn’t keep up and, you know, there were women who made up excuses. And, you know, that—I think that made it harder for the rest of us, but… McKinney Are there any specific events during your service that stand out in your memory? Ekern Events such as? McKinney Um, anything. Um, s—something that you enjoyed, or something that you didn’t enjoy, or just something that sticks out in your memory? Ekern Yeah. At Camp Smith—Camp Smith is built on like the side of a big—I guess you’d call it a mountain. Um, so everything we did was either going up or going down. So anytime we PT’d, we were either running up or we were running down. And we would go on like these marches with, you know, the packs and the Kevlar helmets. And along the side of this mountain—and you’d look down and there wouldn’t be much over there. So that has always stuck out in my mind a lot. But it was also beautiful there, which, um—I mean, I will definitely have to say I really enjoyed probably being in Hawaii the most, where we were at Camp Smith. Um, with it being on the side of a mountain, you know, we’d look out one side of where we worked and you’d see, um, Diamond Head and look out the other side and there was Pearl Harbor. I mean, it was—it was just a beautiful place to be. McKinney And when did you leave the Military? Ekern 1990. McKinney What was your last day like in the Marine Corps? Ekern Sad. Yeah. Really sad. Um, you know, it—even though it was my choice to leave, uh, I had just kind of come to a point where I had to decide. I had finished my bachelor degree and I had to decide if I wanted to, um, try to get into an officer program or, you know, or to get out. And I had made that decision at that point to get out. And, uh, even though I had, you know—it was still difficult to do. You know, I had done this for nine years, and I really, um—I really liked what I did. I felt proud of what I did and I still do. So it was hard going from that to the unknown, you know. McKinney What motivated you to decide to leave the Marines and not go into an officer program? Ekern Well, an officer program isn’t a guarantee. So if I had signed another enlistment, you know, for three to four years, there’s no guarantee that I would have gotten an officer program. And at the time, I had a three year old son, um, and was a single parent. So that had a lot to do with it. Um, [Operation] Desert Storm<a title="">[1]</a> was right on the horizon. That started like three months after I got out. So at that point, I did feel like I had, you know, made the right decision. But… McKinney What was the—your highest rank, uh, at the time you left the Marines? Ekern I was an E[nlisted Rank]-5 Sergeant, but I was a Staff Sergeant Selectee. Meaning: I had been selected for the next rank. Um, but you just have to wait for a certain date. Um, so I was a Staff Sergeant Selectee. McKinney Were you awarded any, uh—any awards or medals or citations? Ekern Yeah. There were several things, like good conduct medals, national, uh—no. meritorious, um—oh gosh. I had it on my, um, commendation medals, meritorious. Uh, can I look at my DD [Form] 214 [Certificate of Release or Discharge from Active Duty]? I’ve got it with me. McKinney Yeah. Ekern ‘Cause I thought I might not remember something [laughs]. Let’s see. Meritorious unit commendations, um, certificate of commendations, good conduct medals, meritorious mast, certificate of appreciations, letter of commendations and recognition. So those kinds of things. McKinney What did you do after you left the Marines? Ekern Uh, I decided to come back here to Orlando. Um, I didn’t have a job, at the time, lined up, but, um, I had real—I liked Orlando when I was here, uh—when I had been stationed here. And Orlando was sort of close enough to home, but not, you know, too close. So, uh—and I still had some friends here. So I decided to come back to Orlando. I had a job. I had a civilian job, um, for about six months before I started work here at UCF [University of Central Florida]. McKinney How did you come—how did you come—become involved with UCF? Ekern Well, when I—I—like I had said, I was a contract—I did contracts and purchasing when I was in the Marines. And, um, the job opening here was for the assistant director of purchasing. So I had applied for that and got that job. So that was my—my first position here. So my training in the Marine Corps had, you know, a direct effect on what I do now. McKinney I know this is kind of late but what does contracting and purchasing entail? Ekern Um, basically we purchased anything that, you know, was needed there on the base. So, it’s—yeah. McKinney Is there anyone you still keep in contact with from the Marines? Ekern Mmhmm. Mostly on Facebook. So that’s been a—yeah—a good way to connect with people. And then, um, I went to my first Marine Corps ball in like 25 years this past weekend. So that was—that was really nice. Brought back a lot of good memories. McKinney Do you feel your Military experience changed you? Ekern Oh, yes. Definitely. Yeah. Um, like I—like I said, it’s—it’s such a different culture. It’s—it’s even hard to explain, you know? It’s—it’s like I had a 100,000 big brothers and they could pick on me, but nobody else could. And, you know, the—the skills and the leadership, and the, um—they’re just all things that I don’t think I could have learned anywhere else. McKinney Did you find it easy incorporating that into—your Military experience into your career here at UCF? Ekern I think it was difficult in the beginning, because the Military is very, you know, black and white. Um, and coming here wasn’t exactly that way. So, even in purchasing, now there are a lot of rules and regulations, uh, in the field of purchasing with the State [of Florida]. It’s still very different than, um, being in the Military. But I think my work ethic, my discipline, um, you know, leadership—I think all of those skills were definitely transferable to what I do here. McKinney Is there anything else you would like to talk about with us today? Ekern Hmm. I can’t really think of anything at this time. McKinney I noticed that you had, uh—you were an expert marks[wo]man in the M16-A1… Ekern Yeah. Yeah. McKinney How was, uh—do you still shoot? Ekern No. I don’t. I did it with my son a couple of times, but it’s been awhile. Um, as a matter of fact, when I first went into the Marine Corps, women did not even qualify with the rifle, which they all do now. But, um—so, in San Diego, that was the first time I’d had to do rifle qualifications, and I was actually second on the—on the, uh—uh, at the range that week. So… McKinney Yeah. I noticed it said you were “expert marksman.” That’s very impressive. Ekern Yeah. Yeah. Expert with the rifle. Only a marksmen with the, uh, pistol. But yeah, I was a good shot [laughs]. McKinney I’d like to thank you for joining us here today, for helping us out with the Community, uh, Veterans [History] Project and thank you for your service. Ekern You’re welcome. <div> <div> <a title="">[1]</a> First Persian Gulf War. </div> </div> A1 advanced training Albany, Georgia assistant director of purchasing basic training boot campRemoves Camp H. M. Smith Camp Lejeune cold war Columbia, South Carolina Community Veterans History Project contracting and purchasing CVHP Denver, Colorado Desert Storm E-5 Ekern, Sharon L. Enlisted Rank 5 expert marksman expert marksmen First Persian Gulf War Hawaii Jacksonville, North Carolina Lowry AFB Lowry Air Force Base M16 Marine Corps Ball Marine Corps Recruit Depot Marine Corps Recruit Depot Parris Island Marine Corps Recruit Depot San Diego marines McKinney, Roy MCRD MCRD Parris Island MCRD San Diego MEPs Military Entrance Processing Command Myrtle Beach, South Carolina Operation Desert Storm orlando Parris Island, South Carolina physical training PT Roy McKinney San Diego, California Seargant servicewoman sexual harassment sexual misconduct Sharon L. Ekern Staff Sergeant Selectee Student Development and Enrollment Service Tailhook Scandal U.S. Air Force U.S. Marine Corps UCF University of Central Florida USAF USMC veteran veterans woman women