Cravero
Today’s Thursday, July 30, 2015. My name’s Geoff Cravero. I’m speaking with Mick Dolan at the Salem Media Group radio stations in Altamonte Springs, Florida. Thanks for speaking with me today, Mick.
Dolan
No problem.
Cravero
Uh, let’s just begin I guess with a little of your biography. Could you, uh, tell us a little about where you’re from originally and, uh, early kind of bio details?
DolanI was found under a rock…
Cravero
[laughs].
Dolan
About, uh 64 years ago.
Cravero
[laughs].
Dolan
[laughs] Uh, my radio career started in, uh, Topeka, Kansas. I was, uh, at a station there. Then I went to Kansas City[, Missouri], spent a couple years there, and, uh, about five years in Louisville[, Kentucky], but, on July 28, uh, 1980, I came here, uh, and started at [W]DIZ[–FM 100.3]. So uh, 35 years—I’m celebrating my 35th, eh, on the radio here.
Unidentified
[inaudible].
Dolan
Uh, DIZ, uh, was a great radio station. It’s gone now. Uh, then I went on—took a break, got out of the, eh—the business completely, and about three or four years later, uh, somebody—I saw a friend at a—in line at the post office and she goes, “You know what? They’re looking for people over at WLOQ[-FM 107.7], the smooth jazz station.” So I said, “Eh.” I went over there—I actually interviewed for the promotions director job, but, uh, I didn’t get it. The program director says, “Hey, man, we need to get you back on the air here.” So they—they—we did a part-time job for a while. It worked into a full-time job. I was a morning host with another guy, Mark Taylor.
Unidentified
[inaudible].
Dolan
And, uh, then went to the nights, and then the station got sold. So [laughs] I’ve actually killed two radio stations in my career here, but, uh, after that, uh, took another little break and found a job here doing news and traffic now at, uh, the Salem [Salem Media Group] stations: WORL[-AM 660] and WBZW[–AM 1520]. So afternoon drive, man. I’m the news guy and the traffic guy. So, you know, what goes around comes around.
Cravero
[laughs]
Dolan
And, uh…
Unidentified
[inaudible].
Dolan
But, you know what? It—it is always beat working.
Unidentified
[inaudible].
Dolan
I’ve never, uh—you know, I—I never really wanted a real job.
Unidentified
[inaudible].
Dolan
I wanted to do what I liked to do, and isn’t that the whole reason? Uh, I mean, come on. If you can’t like what you’re doing, then what are you—what are you doing? So that’s what I tell people: “Always beats working.”
Unidentified
[inaudible].
Dolan
Let’s close that door.
Cravero
Alright [laughs].
Dolan
That’s awful noise in here.
Cravero
[laughs].
Unidentified
[inaudible].
Dolan
We make a lot of noise here at Salem.
Cravero
[laughs] That’s okay.
[door closes]
Dolan
Most of it’s good.
Cravero
Yeah [laughs].
Dolan
Alright. Should I be looking at there? Or…
Cravero
Oh, no. Just—this works fine.
Dolan
Okay, alright, okay.
Cravero
That’s good. Um, yeah, I guess, uh—let’s see. Tell us a little about the, uh—the Baxter and Mark Show.[1] I noticed you—you sent us some photos of them, and, uh…
Dolan
Unbelievable.
Cravero
I read a little bit about, uh, the shock jock-era kind of thing. Uh…
Dolan
Yeah, that was before your time. Right?
Cravero
[laughs].
Dolan
You young guys—I just don’t—well, uh, they were one of the best morning shows ever, and the thing that they did was they interacted with people. They—they’re not talking to ya. They’re getting ya—they had callers all the time. They were always pulling stunts and pranks and, uh, just [laughs]—just some amazing stuff on the radio, and, uh, unfortunately, uh, because the business is the business, uh, the management, uh, felt that, uh, after a while that they’d outlived, uh, you know, their—their run, and they replaced them with Ron and Ron—another good show—but, just kind of kicking them to the curb after five, six, seven years, that’s—that’s crazy, but, uh, they were not able to carry on the team.
So they split up, and Mark Samansky died back in 2011, uh, and we try to do a, uh, reunion for him. I haven’t been able to do it the last couple of years. Uh, it’s kind of a—it’s a lot of work, but, uh, just in his memory, because he was such as talented guy. I mean, “Dr. Zonas” and, uh, you know, the [laughs]—“Opie Gets Nookie”, all these songs that they did that, uh, just—you—you know, they would take a song—a popular song—and—and, uh—and change it around a little bit and—and make a funny out of it, and, you know, it’s such[?], uh—the wake-up calls were legendary. Uh, they were doing this stuff before anybody else did. So they were—they were true groundbreakers. They really were, and Baxter’s still around. He’s up in, uh, Washington D.C. He’s doing voice work, but, um, you know, he’s the kind of guy who just anything in radio. I mean, he can do the commercials, he’s—he was an operations guy. Uh, he was really the—he sort of kept them on the ground [laughs]. [inaudible]. Samansky was out of his mind, so they worked so well together.
It was a great show, but, uh, long live Baxter and Mark. You can still see them, uh—I can’t think of the—it’s—it’s Baxterradio.com. He’s got a bunch of their old bits. Uh, one of my favorites ev—ever was Mr. Bradley. This was an old black guy that thought he was calling the radio station to win Michael Jackson tickets, and they [laughs]—they turned that poor boy every which way. They recorded the bit and then later would split it, you know, chop it up. They could make him say anything. It was the most unbelievable thing, and they got—I don’t know how many bits they did. It wa—you know, every once in a while Mr. Bradley would call, and, uh, so you know—it just—stuff like that that was just epic. Unbelievable [laughs], but, anyway, we’ve got the memories.
Uh, and, you know, it’s hard to believe that radio station went away—it’ll be 20 years next year. 1996. Uh, Clear Channel bought them, turned them into soft rock, and then they went to Spanish and then, uh—I don’t know. what is it now? I—I don’t know, but, I—I think it’s still Spanish, and—but, uh, it was pretty amazing. That’s the way radio is. Nothing ever stays the same. Well, that’s an—any media it’s like, uh, it’s always changing, and you’ve got to stay one step ahead, and, uh, quite frankly that—that—that’s[sic] has been a problem. I haven’t been able to do that [laughs], but, you know, it’s hard to be a 64 year old disc jockey in rock radio, and, uh, I can—I can still bring a lot to the table, but, it—it is what it is—what it is.
Cravero
When you talked about, uh, you know, Clear Channel in ’96, buying out a lot of the…
Dolan
[inaudible].
Cravero
The radio stations, yeah.
Dolan
104. Uh, that’s—that was—these were all free standing radio stations, ‘cause back then, you could only own an AM and an FM [clears throat]. That was it. Now, I think it’s like seven total, uh, you can own. So you’ve got three companies that dominate the market here: Cox [Media Group], uh, Clear Channel, and, uh inaudible what is it? CBS [Columbia Broadcasting System], I think. I’m not sure. Maybe they call it something else. I have no idea, but those three guys dominate, uh, still, and, you know, it’s what deregulation did. Can’t win them all. Put a lot of good people out of work, I can tell you that, and, uh, is the quality of radio any better? [buzzer noise] I don’t think so. No, no.
I mean what [W]MMO[-FM 98.9] does, what [W]JRR[-FM 101.1] does—they do what they do. That’s good, but it just doesn’t have the soul. It doesn’t have the heart that—that we had back in the day, because those guys are doing a bunch of other jobs. You don’t just do radio. When I was hired back in the day, I—I mean, in my case I was promotions director, too, and—and, uh—so I did that, as well as be on the air, and I was also the production director. I had three jobs there, but really, most people just did one—you were on the air. You did your four hour shift and you were done. It’s like, “Wow.” What a job that is. Not anymore. Now, uh, you gotta pay the piper. So anyway, business has changed. You can’t win them all [laughs].
Cravero
What was the, uh—the Orlando music scene like, uh, when you first came and—and kind of had, you know—how did it evolve?
Dolan
Uh, it—it—it was—it blew up in the ‘80s. I mean, uh, there was a rock club on every corner. Point After [Tom’s Point After], Fern Park Station, Plus 3 Lounge, uh, gosh, the ABC Lounges were doing live music, uh, and I’m, uh—I’m forgetting a bunch of others, but, uh, you know, it was—it was fun. I mean, you could—and it didn’t hurt that I lived like two blocks from Fern Park Station, and my car knew the way home. So I had no problems there, but it was just a fun time. It was kind of an innocent time. It was anything goes. It was back when you could get away with stuff, and—and now you’ve got laws. So uh, it—it was just a really special time and there was—there were booking agents that—oh, my god—Ricky Young and Steve, uh, Brewton— “Brewster” Brewton—uh, these—Steve Peck. These guys—Earl Tennent—these guys made big money booking bands. Now, the clubs don’t want to pay for it. That’s the—that’s the problem. The clubs don’t want to pay for their entertainment. Plus, everybody think he can be a rock star, and so there’s a million bands out there, and there’s some good bands. You’re in a good band.[2] So [laughs] where’s the outlet? How do you guys make money? I should be asking you that.
Cravero
[laughs].
Dolan
Uh, so it—it’s—it was real special, and then I think just a combination of the economy just kind of went another direction and, you know, the deregulation of—of radio, and, uh, I—I think that just—it really hurt, and now, there’s still clubs out there—there’s still—you can still hear a good band, but, they’re not making any money. Uh, it’s too bad, but they’re just not. So…
Cravero
Do you have any, uh—any favorites? Like local bands from the ‘80s, or ‘90s, or…
Dolan
Oh, then there re was the Bobby Friss Band, and Stranger, and Foreign Legion, and, uh, uh—in fact, Stranger Band, uh, they lost a couple of people. They lost their guitar player.[3] He, uh, passed, uh, years ago, and then their drummer, uh, [John] “J.P.” [Price], recently had, uh—he had cancer or something, but—so they’re all getting old and dying, but Greg Billings was in that band. He still has his band, the Greg Billings Band. So—but, those were special bands. Uh, oh, I don’t know. I—I—I can’t—there’s a million of them.
Cravero
[laughs].
Dolan
I can’t remember any of them right now, but, uh, those bands were able to make a living and have a lot of fun. You know, back in—opening up for Van Halen and, you know, things like that. So they were big, uh, but, it’s all gone now. There was a band called Sons of Doctors [laughs]. That was great too. They were a little bit later—late ‘80s—but, uh, Angelo Jannotti, those guys—they’re still around, you know? So, uh, it—it—it was a special time. It really was.
Cravero
What about, um—I read a little about the Rock Super Bowls they did…
Dolan
Oh.
Cravero
At the Citrus Bowl.
Dolan
Epic, epic. Unbelievable. I came from Louisville in 1980, and it was funny, because they—those big stadium shows were just starting back, you know, late ‘70s, early ‘80s, and I had seen, uh, ZZ Top and, uh, Lynyrd Skynyrd, uh, in—in Louisville, and that same show that had Bob Seger, and they came that [clears throat]—that summer. So I—I caught them there too, but those Super Bowl[s], they—they had big name acts, every one of them, and I think that fell victim to the times, as well. The people—the bands, who are big and popular, they want too much money, and—and a show like that, you just couldn’t put it together, uh, like they—they could then. Uh, then, of course, there was The [Rolling] Stones and The Who, and, uh, Stones came back—I did not see that show. I wanted to, but I missed it, and, uh—well, because I had to pay now.
Cravero
[laughs].
Dolan
[laughs] I didn’t have to pay back then, and I ain’t going to pay hundreds of dollars. I’m sorry. I love the band, but uh-uh. I’ve got better things to do with that money. I shouldn’t say that. I probably shot myself in the foot, but that’s alright. It’s only rock and roll. So uh—but those—that was a community thing, man, and the memories, and—and again, what you can get away with. It’s like—it’s crazy. It was all good, and you—you talk to anybody who’s been around a while and you mention Rock Super Bowls, and they’re going to go, “Oh, oh, I remember that one, yeah.” Ted Nugent, uh—it was pretty cool. Very nice, but I don’t think they could pull that off now. You just can’t do that. It would have to be part of a tour, and—and I know there’s tours like that, but—but not in that environment. I mean, it’s just something else, and the—and the Citrus Bowl wasn’t even that big back then. They still put 50,000 in there. So, you know, promoters made a lot of money. Everybody was happy, and the tickets—I don’t know—I—those Super Bowl tickets probably weren’t more than 20 dollars. Oh, my god. How—can you imagine that? You know, those were the days. It is.
Cravero
Yeah, did you, uh, have any interesting, uh, stories about being backstage at any of them?
Dolan
[laughs].
Cravero
[laughs] That you can share.
Dolan
That I can talk about today?
Cravero
[laughs].
Dolan
One of my favorites was, uh, uh, David Lee Roth of Van Halen and—because I got to do an interview with him, and, you know, it—those days it wasn’t, you know, wireless—there wasn’t any of that, but—so I recorded it on a cassette player, and we took a bus over there to see him. It was in Lakeland[, Florida], and, uh—that’s where—that’s where the concerts were—was Lakeland Civic Center. There was no Orlando Arena. There was no Amway Center. There was nothing. So you had to go to Lakeland to see a show, and the same for Tampa. So the—the two converged—the markets converged there, and—and it was kind of cool because backstage you’d see the Tampa radio guys and, you know, it was a kind of a family, but, uh, David Lee Roth was out of his mind. Took over the interview. I mean—I—he was interviewing me. So I had that and I—I played it for the people on the bus back home, uh—on the way back, and it was just epic. Uh, I had a—I’ll tell you the worst interview I ever had was George Thorogood. Guy was a total asshole.
Cravero
[laughs].
Dolan
I’m sorry. He was. Great music. Love the guy.
[cell phone beeps]
Dolan
Couldn’t believe that—that—but, he was obnoxious, he was making fun of radio, he was, you know, uh, dissing on everybody…
[cell phone beeps]
Dolan
And it was like, “What?” You know, “Hey, man, I’m sorry. I’m trying to help you. I’m doing this for you as much as for me.” So just left a really bad taste in my mouth, but, uh, um—and then, you know, I got to be onstage for The Who. I got to bring on The B-52’s. They opened for The Who, and [laughs] that was the punk rock scene there, and that was—they were considered, you know, new wave. Uh, that was, uh [makes sound]—the rock guys did not like—they were booed[sic] ‘em. They were throwing stuff onstage. I’m bringing them on and I dodge a can—a Converse [Chuck Taylor] All Star [shoe] that—a red one. I’ll never forget it. So I dodged that one, brought on the band. They lasted maybe three songs, and while I was onstage, the other Converse All Star—the other red one—came flying up on the stage. So they only lasted three songs and walked off and I can’t blame them, but, uh [laughs] there’s just—just epic stuff like that, but, uh, there’s no—I mean, you can’t even describe what it’s like to be out on that stage in front of 50,000 people, and when you speak, there’s a delay. There’s like a half to a full second delay. So you’re hearing, you know—that’s very—that’s hard to get used to, but, you know, the—the—the—the experience was just unbelievable. Great stuff.
Cravero
That’s cool.
Dolan
Yeah.
Cravero
[laughs].
Cravero
I read also you did, uh,—you, uh—CMT’s [Country Music Television], uh—they did like a fantasy camp?
Dolan
Yeah, Camp Nashville [laughs].
Cravero
What was that?
Dolan
My—my friend and I, Lee Bailey, who was a promoter himself—in fact, he was of the only guys to lose money on Larry the Cable Guy,[4] if you can believe that, uh, and—so he had some bad luck, but, uh, we—we were trying to do, uh—it was patterned after Rock and Roll Fantasy Camp, uh, which is hugely successful. I—and what the concept is: you gather musicians, you pay to be a camper, and, you know, they jam with you, they teach you some stuff, they have sessions. You know, it’s all—it’s very cool. Very cool concept. Well, we thought we could do it and we went to Nashville and, uh, found out that it was a little harder than we thought, and so it never even got off the ground. Uh, we—we had—we opened it, uh, we were taking camper, you know, registrations, but, uh, just didn’t have the money or the contacts to—to make it happen, and I still think it’s a good idea, but we just couldn’t pull it off.
So, uh—I like all kinds of music. I mean, I’ve worked rock and smooth jazz, always, you know, news and traffic, but, I like country. Uh, I’m not real fond of rap, but, uh—I mean, every music has something in it, and every music—Americana? uh, I mean, come on. Bon Iver? I like that guy.[5] I think that guy is talented, uh, but—but, you know, I don’t know all of the new music. I—I don’t know how anybody keeps up with it. There’s just so much out there, and so much that’s never heard by, you know, anybody but the real fans. Uh, so I depend on my two, uh, sons to keep me up on that.
Dolan
But, uh, it’s—it’s just a great—a great career, if you can find your niche. That’s the whole key, and you’ve got to remember that it changes every day [laughs] practically, and so uh, be ready to move, you know?
Cravero
Well, I know you’ve got a show to get to.
Dolan
Yeah, man.
Cravero
So, uh…
Dolan
The news and traffic never stops.
Cravero
[laughs].
Dolan
And there’s plenty to do, but, uh, let’s make sure—yeah, I’m good.
Cravero
Alright.
Dolan
Okay, but, uh, you know—just in closing, it—it—it’s so good to be remembered, I think, in a positive way, and I just try to be myself and—and try to connect, try to—I mean, I love people, and—and that’s what you have to have. You have to have that empathy for your audience, and, uh—onstage, as well. Uh, I love to do onstage, love to bring bands on. I—I just brought, uh—uh—uh, Blandini—Jeff Blando was an old rocker. It’s—he’s still around, and, uh, you know, played with, uh, uh, uh, Slaughter and, uh, I can’t think of it. Anyway—but—but he—he’s got his own band, Blandini. I just brought him on. It’s a new place called Paradise Cove in Seminole County, right by the river. Man, it’s got a pool, boat slips—you can pull your boat right up, uh, and so my friend, uh, Randy—he’s—he’s got that, uh, place, and so you know, I still do that all the time. I’ll bring—I love these—especially these bands that have been around for a while and are still doing it, and it’s like, hey. You know, one relic introduces the others.
Cravero
[laughs].
Dolan
Right? So it—it’s just—it’s—it beats working always, and I appreciate you coming by and talking to me [laughs].
Cravero
I appreciate you talking to us, Mick. Thanks a lot.
Dolan
And get the word out. We’re still here.
Cravero
[laughs].
Dolan
[laughs].
Cravero
Will do.
Dolan
Okay.
Cravero
Alright, man. Thanks.
Dolan
Thank you. Alright.
Morris
It is October 28, 2011, and I am talking to Dick Groskey in his place of residence. I am Joseph Morris, representing the Linda McKnight Batman Oral History Project for the Historical Society of Central Florida. Sir, could you tell us a little about yourself?
Groskey
What?
Morris
Could you tell us a little about yourself and your life?
Groskey
Well, what would you like, what would you like…
Morris
Well, where were you born, sir? Where were you raised?
Groskey
Springfield, Ohio.
Morris
And when did you come down to Florida, sir?
Groskey
Well, right after I got married in the early [19]40s. I got out of the service in ’46, and we got married the same year, and we came to Florida in the real early ‘50s.
Morris
Okay, sir. And did you move originally to...
Groskey
No. We—we were going to Miami, and I blew out a tire. It was over on U.S. [Route] 1, and we blew a tire out on the car, and it was late at night on Sunday. We stopped in a motel over on U.S. 1. The next morning, we got up and I asked where the local garage was, and they said, “Oh, it’s clear over in Bithlo. Over Dave Shaw’s garage.” So there happened to be a fellow there that was going that way, and so he took my tire, and we throwed[sic] it in the back of his truck, and he took me over Dave Shaw’s garage, which was right in the middle of no place. Well, Dave got the tire fixed, and one thing another.
And in the meantime, while he was fixing the tire, I thought, “Well, I’ll look at the local newspaper.” So I’m just thumbing through it. There’s an ad in there: “Machinist wanted.” So I asked Dave Shaw, I said, “Well, where is this place?” “Oh,” he said, “That’s over in Orlando, which is short ways from Bithlo.” So I put a dime in the telephone—it was a dime at that time—and I called this man up, and he was from Youngstown, Ohio. And I told him, I said, “Well,” I said, “I’ve been a toolmaker all my life.” And he said, “I got a job for you.” He says, “Come on over!” So I said, “Well, wait ‘til I get my tire fixed, and I’ll come over.” So he gave me the directions, and I came over to Orlando, and I went down on Sligh Boulevard—and Tool Engraving on Sligh. It was Trade Tool Engraving— was the name of the place. And he said, “I’ll let you run a screw machine second shift.” I said, “Great.” [inaudible] easy. I’d run one before. So I went back to Titusville, told the missus. I said, “Well, we’re gonna have to stay here tonight, but,” I said, “tomorrow we’re going to Orlando.” And she said, “Well, what’s the matter with going to Miami?” I said, “I got a job.” She said, “You got a job?” I said, “Yeah. I go to work tomorrow night.” And I’ve never been out of work since.
Morris
Wow, sir. So, why were you going to Miami?
Groskey
I don’t know. I just thought that was a place where it was warm and there was a lot of something going on.
Morris
Got distracted by Orlando?
Groskey
And well, we got stuck here and been here ever since.
Morris
Then how long did you work at the...
Groskey
At Trade Tool?
Morris
Yes, sir.
Groskey
Only, well, best part of a year. And that’s when the Martin [Marietta Corporation] company came here, and I helped build the Martin plant. Then I went to work industrial engineering. And I stayed out there about a year and a half, I guess, and then I started my own thing, and been keeping it going ever since.
Morris
Okay. And how did you start your own business, sir?
Groskey
One tool at a time.
Morris
And how long have you been in business?
Groskey
Oh my gosh. Never [laughs]—I’ve always had a shop. We moved the shop down when I moved down from Ohio.
Morris
Oh really, sir?
Groskey
Yeah.
Morris
So you were doing this up in Ohio as well?
Groskey
Yeah.
Morris
The, um…
Groskey
I had a shop in Brookville, Ohio, and then we left Brookville to come to Florida, and I had our furniture in the shop in a—on a semi. We was gonna move it down here, and we moved, after we had the blowout over Titusville, and I got a job there, we went over here on [U.S. Route] 17-92 and rented a three-room apartment over there.
And I had all the shop equipment come down then after we got established, and I rented a place over in Altamonte Springs. It was a little—about a four-story—I mean a four-office little building that Merris Walker—he owned the whole town practically. He built this building—just a little commercial building—and I rented one of the offices in there. We put all the machinery in there. And at that time, I was working at the Martin company, so we got our little shop going. So I went, quit the Martin company, went back out there, went to purchasing, I said, “I’d like to bid on your work.” And we’ve been going ever since.
Morris
Okay, sir. And could you tell me a little about the place where you grew up? I know it was in Ohio, correct?
Groskey
Mmhm.
Morris
Have you been back?
Groskey
Only when my dad died in 1966. I haven’t been back since.
Morris
Okay, sir. What was it like growing up out there?
Groskey
It was right prior to World War II, and things were tight, but it was a lot—a lot easier. Better times than what it is now. It wasn’t near as fast-paced. People had more of value than they do now. Smaller things meant more. Our—we lived in a middle-class neighborhood where everybody worked, and everybody went to school. Everybody had a car. And we played croquet at night in the backyard. We played football down at the local park. We played baseball at the local park. We played horseshoes. There was always something to do. The local park was just a matter of trees, a drinking fountain, and a shelter house, but there the city provided ball gloves and tennis racquets and things. So you’d go in there, sign your name and get a ball, go up and go play ball.
Morris
Okay.
Groskey
And that was kind of the center of activity of the whole community. We lived in what they called Walnut Hills. It was a very clannish type situation, because at that time, in that area—National Cash Register, General Motors [Company], Frigidaire, Dayton Rubber [Company], and those bigger companies—a job was something that there was nothing to be concerned about. That was something that your dad—your dad’s dad probably worked at these same companies over the last three or four generations, because that’s the way things were. You didn’t have to hunt for a job. Shop like I got now—a job shop—there was[sic] hundreds of them in that town. You’d pick up the phone call and say, “Hey, what do you got going? You got 30 days’ worth of work? I’ll be over this afternoon.” And you had another job. That’s job shopping. But if you wanted to go to the major companies like Dayton Rubber, Frigidaire, or one of the big ones—Master Electric, where they made motors—you’d go in there, hire on. They’re expecting you and your kids’ kids to work there. It was job security, which of you have none today. Today, it’s feast or famine. We get a job today, you finish it up two o’clock, goodbye. Go home. There is no security in jobs today, unless you create your own security.
Morris
Right, sir.
Groskey
There is nothing that—you can’t depend on the other man for anything.
Morris
Okay, sir. And how—so you left. You just wanted a change of scenery? You came down to Miami for that reason? Or you were on your way to Miami for that reason?
Groskey
No. I spent—like I said, I spent a lot of time over in China and Burma and India. And it was all hot weather. Very hot. We came home in February, and it was just kind of the tail end of the winter, but there was a lot of snow and ice on the ground, and after being in the tropics for that long, and coming in to snow and ice on the ground—and I got married, I told her when we got married, I said, “Look, we’re going someplace else.” I said, “I’m not gonna shovel snow.” I said, “I’m not used to this.” My later teens and then early twenties, I was overseas, and I said, “Boy, I’m not going home and shoveling any snow.”
So we told her parents, we told my parents, and my dad says, “If you take her and them[sic] kids out of Ohio, I’ll disown you.” Which he did. We never got one dime from him, and he was a wealthy man. When he died, I got just exactly nothing, because I took her and came to Florida with the kids.
Morris
And that was your dad or her dad?
Groskey
No. That was my dad.
Morris
Wow.
Groskey
No. Her dad was more lenient. He was from Georgia, and was a farmer from Georgia. He had a pretty nice business going, and he said, “Well,” he said, “I can understand why you’re doing what you’re doing.” And he says, “If we can help you, we will.”
But my dad was from the old school, and if it ain’t his way, it’s no way. It was that, but, he said, “You don’t know what you’re doing. You’re leaving the whole security and this and that and everything else.” I said, “No. I’m not.” I said, “Now I was in the service. I’ve been clear around the world.” I said, “I’ve seen other places. I’ve been other places and done other things. I’m not gonna sit here and shovel snow. I’m going someplace else.” “Well, if you do, you’re disowned.” And he did.
Morris
What did your dad do for a living? Did he work in one of these...
Groskey
He was vice president of the [International] Typographical Union.
Morris
Okay, sir. I can definitely see why, after going to the tropics, that Miami might have come to mind.
Groskey
That was the only—Orlando—it was just a wide spot in the road, like Kissimmee, that was just a few cars walking up and down the road. But Orlando did have a name, but it didn’t have a name like Jacksonville or Miami. Now, my wife’s from Georgia, and some of her relations—her dad, or her uncle—was warden of the Duvall County farm up there. So we came down—prior to moving, we came down here and visited, and we talked to her uncle at great length, and he was a very, very, very knowledgeable man, and he knew basics of life right here in Florida. So I asked him a lot of pointed questions. He gave me the answers. He says, “It’s gonna be up to you.” He said, “There’s[sic] opportunities here. It’s up to you to make them.” He said, “You can go out there and hustle around.” He said, “You’ll make them.” He said, “Florida’s growing.” He was born and raised there. I figured, “Well, you know what you’re talking about.” So that changed our opinion on going to Miami. After talking to people who had been there and back, and one thing another, salesmen and people who had went down there to live, and got out of the Little Havana area—whatever—they said, “Stay up in Orlando area.” Been here ever since.
Morris
Okay, so after you moved here, you were still thinking about going down to Miami afterwards?
Groskey
No.
Morris
Just talking to these people.
Groskey
No. That was it. That cancelled that out. I only went to Miami one time since we moved to Florida. We had a subcontract on the FAA [Federal Aviation Administration] building in Miami, and we supplied a lot of the high-pressure ductwork down there. We built it. And we had to get down—as owner of the shop, we had to get down to physically see that our work was in that job. It was a government job. Our work was in that building and that contract—blah blah blah blah blah. And I had to go down there about three different times. Other than that, I never went back.
Morris
Okay, sir.
Groskey
That’s where Miami and me[sic] ended.
Morris
That’s where you and Miami have just parted ways?
Groskey
Yep.
Morris
Okay, sir. Well, how has Orlando changed from when you moved here to now?
Groskey
They have ruined Orlando.
Morris
Really, sir?
Groskey
Yeah.
Morris
In what way?
Groskey
Due to the fact that the people that were responsible—once Orlando was established as a town, and the multitude started moving into that town—the way Orlando was originally set up was a farm town that was easygoing and whatever. As soon as it started to grow with a vast amount of people, which happened in the ‘50s, it really blossomed, and when it did, they lost reality with what Orlando was all about.
When we moved here, you could drink the water out of Prairie Lake. You could go along, there was water along the ditches on every main road out at the main area of the town here. There was[sic] fish in these ditches. People would be along the side of Route 50[1] fishing, and water wasn’t that deep, but there was fish in them. I worked at the Martin company, and when I’d come home at night, I’d take the boys, and we’d go over to Lake Monroe and sit there on the seawall, and in an hour’s time, I’d have a bucket so full of fish you could hardly pick it up. Where’d they all go? Where’d the mullet go? Where’d the blue crabs go? Everything has been polluted.
They ruined Central Florida. Now we’ve got crime. A lot more. A shooting in Central Florida back in the ‘50s—unheard of, unless it was a hunting accident. Somebody pulled out a gun and shot his own foot. It was unheard of. Now it’s an everyday occurrence. You go to Pine Hills today and somebody’s gonna shoot somebody before you can drive through it. They have ruined Central Florida, because that is the element that follows growth. There’s that type of person that will follow growth, and try to reap what they can off it, and they have ruined Central Florida.
Central Florida—I won’t even go to the coast. You used to be able to go anyplace up and down the east coast. You could pull off the side of the road, cross the dunes, and go fishing. It’s all barricaded off. Chain-link fence. “Keep out.” Don’t come here, don’t go there.
When we first moved, when we first got ourselves established in Altamonte Springs, I went to a council meeting, and several of the management meetings Downtown—city of Orlando. And most of the people down there—a lot of the people down there were from Baltimore[, Maryland]. Baltimore entered big in Central Florida, because the Martin came here. Martin company came here. They brought all their people with them. And come to find out, most of the people that came with the Martin company from Baltimore were the odd falls they wanted to get rid of anyway. And that’s how the Martin company started here. Well, I went—I helped build the building, then I went to work in it, and I know firsthand.
But, at any rate, I had a shop in Altamonte Springs. I had the first screw machine in Seminole County. So I went to one of these meetings down there, and I got a chance to speak my voice. I got up and I said, “Well, you fellows don’t have any manufacturing base here.” I said, “You got high-acreage use plant.” I said, “You got two or three big packinghouses. One Blue Goose [Growers packinghouse].” And I said, “You’ve got another packinghouse over in Maitland, but,” I said, “you don’t have anything that’s making anything. You don’t produce any. You don’t have any sawmills. You don’t have any manufacturing, no welding shops, no nothing. Why?” “Because we’re tourist-oriented.” That’s the famous saying: “We’re tourist-oriented.” And still to this day, they’re still leaning away from manufacturing. They don’t want any manufacturing in Central Florida. I tried to explain to them how the economy in Cincinnati and Dayton was based on all these little job shops that was doing something. Now what have you got? Blacks running up and down the ladder picking oranges. That ain’t gonna help the economy. Not one nickel’s worth. The grove owner’s gonna make money, but you and I aren’t. I said, “You have to have diversified activity in that community.” And you know, they said, “Well, you’ve probably got a pretty good idea, but we don’t wanna hear no more.” And that’s where they shut it off, and I said, “Well, to hell with you. Goodbye.”
And it’s still today the same situation. They want tourists. Get them in, fleece them, send them on a plane back home. They don’t want nothing here permanently. Go downtown. What have they done for the people who live here? If you go someplace, you’re gonna pay money dear for it, because you’re gonna pay just like a tourist. They don’t give the local people anything. They don’t say, “Hey, show me your driver’s license. You come in for two bucks.” “Hey, it’s $28.00? We might charge you $30.00, because you live here.” Uh-uh. I’m soured on [inaudible]. Believe me. That’s why we’re out here on our own little domain. I have nothing to do with them.
Morris Okay, sir. So, um, this kind of might be a little bit of a weird question, then—so you’re not a—you don’t go to—or have you ever gone to any of the theme parks that attract the tourists?
Groskey
I have never. I have done work for [Walt] Disney World and Universal [Studios Orlando] and everybody else, but it’s always on a bid-item basis. The only reason I will go there is to take a job out, give them a purchase order, and hope I get paid. That’s the only way. As far as spending my money to go to their park, I wouldn’t spend a dime.
Morris
Yeah. They are expensive, sir.
Groskey
I wouldn’t spend a dime.
Morris
When you say “hope” you get paid, have you ever had a problem with receiving payment from these companies?
Groskey
Martin company and Disney started out the same way. Thirty days on invoice, 60 days on invoice, 90 days on invoice. Martin company got 120 days on invoice. I took the last invoices right down to personnel, right into payroll. I said, “I want to get paid for these.” “Well, we’re a big company, you know. It takes time.” And I said, “Now, you’re not that big.” I said, “I’m a little guy. We started out 30-day invoice, okay. 60, I can live with. 90, I’m hurting. 120, I can’t do it. Anymore work we do from you, COD [Cash on Delivery].” Now I’m a little guy talking to a big guy, and I said, “That’s it.” They needed us at that time more than we needed them, because there was nobody else except Martin [inaudible] out here that had a shot.
Morris
Okay, so they kept trying to put you off?
Groskey
That’s right. They kept stringing us out, stringing us out, and stringing us. “Well, we’re a big company!” I said, “Yes, you ought to be able to do it twice as fast. Because you have more facilities than we do. You ought to be able to make your pay the same day.”
Morris
Right, sir.
Groskey
So, I said, “C.O.D.”
Morris
So your business work with these companies has not been the—all you wish they could be?
Groskey
Well, the Martin company, as you know, right now is one of the largest defense contractors there is in the United States. And had we—at that time, had we had somebody on our side that could go internally there, today we’d probably be a multi-million dollar corporation. Because they made some big companies out of what happened at Martin company throughout the United States.
Morris
Okay, but because you couldn’t get anybody, or you didn’t have anybody to work with you there...
Groskey
We—as an outsider, we had nobody on the inside.
Morris
Gotcha, sir.
Groskey
Now, when the shuttle’s arm[2] came up at the Cape [Canaveral], when the shuttle’s arm came up, the robotic arm, we were doing NASA [National Aeronautics and Space Administration] work at the time. So I went out to procurement, and I said to them, I said, “Well, we’d like to bid on this robotic arm.” And he said, “Okay, fine.” He said, “You’re qualified. You’re DoD [U.S. Department of Defense] and checked out and everything. Fine.” We got a set of drawings, we come back, and we figured it out. We could make the complete thing except the one base had a milled slot about 12-14 feet long. We couldn’t mill it. I had a friend in Winter Haven that had a big Niles Planer [Machine]. He could do it.
We submitted our bid. We were second—number two. Now, we’re a little shop, and that was a big job. There was only, I think, four of them to start with, and they were over a period of two or three years. The man out in IOA [inaudible] got the job. We went out and protested. He don’t have enough money in his bid to buy the material to do the job. The purchase agent out there on that contract was a woman. She said, “Well, Mr. Groskey,” she said, “I’ll tell you. We can’t control where he gets his material from. He may have a warehouse full.” That’s the only out I got. He may have a warehouse full. We had to buy it. He had a warehouse. I said, “Okay.” Less than 30 days, they came back and said, “We want you to pick up the contract. He went bankrupt.” I says, “Goodbye.” That’s what I told NASA. I wouldn’t touch it.
Morris
Oh really, sir? But you worked with NASA afterwards, right?
Groskey
Yeah.
Morris
Just not on that contract.
Groskey
Not on that one. Nope. We dropped that one right by the wayside. They wanted us to come back and pick up the ball, and clean up the mess, and sweep the dirt. I said, “No dice.” We don’t get it going in, we don’t want any part of it.
Morris
Okay, sir. Could you tell me more about the work you’ve done with NASA? Because that does a lot for the local community and the local area.
Groskey
No. The only thing that we got out there was small stuff that they couldn’t buy it for here [inaudible]. Onesie-twosie things that, like certain types of bearings and special screws, and just little nit-picking stuff. Nothing big.
Morris
Oh, okay, sir.
Groskey
Nothing big. No big contracts. Nothing. Biggest contract we had was from the Navy over here—the [Orlando Naval] Training Center. And we did Navy work, but there was too much red tape in all that work. I’d rather have work off the street. The last Navy job we had, they made four change orders on it. They went through a nuclear submarine. And there was[sic] four change orders. And after the second or third change order, the fourth change order went right back to the first change order, and that—we’d already scrapped it. We had to do it all over again. They don’t know what they’re doing.
Morris
Gotcha, sir. So, um…
Groskey
We’re very, very, very selective if we take work out that we don’t know the people that we’re gonna do it for. I would rather do a hundred percent commercial work. 100 percent. But right now, the customers we’ve got—we’ve got all the good customers in Central Florida—that they bring work to us. If we take something out to one of those customers, and it’s not according to what maybe they think they want, or they really need, they’ve already given us okay to do it, or purchase orders behind it. We make it, we fab it, we take it out, and if it’s not exactly what they want, it goes right in the dumpster and we get paid for it. Because that’s the way we do business. This is what you wanted, and this is what you got. Now, if you can’t use it, that ain’t my problem. You got what you ordered. And that’s the way we do business.
Morris
Gotcha, sir. Okay. Could you tell me a little more about the business here then? I know we discussed earlier, but could you tell me more about what kind of work you do, and who you do it for?
Groskey
Well, we do sheet metal work, welding, and machine work, general machine work for the complete population. No matter what industry or what kind of a business they have going, we make. We’ve made everything you could possibly think of. We’ve made parts for outboard motors, typewriters, telephones, fishing equipment, hunting equipment, dies, jigs, drill jigs, fixtures, screw machine parts. You name it. If it was made out of metal, we made it. We make high-pressure ductwork, sheet metal ductwork. We make low-pressure ductwork. We make all kind of turning veins, fittings, the whole gamut. Whatever there is in small metalwork, we do.
Morris
Okay, sir. And, could you tell me how…
Groskey
We’ve only been stymied once or twice, and that was when we had something that was a—it was more of a compound angle, and we didn’t have facilities to do it with, but I have a friend out in Apopka that’s got a water jet machine. We took it out there to him, and he water-jetted it, and we went merrily on our way. So we have an out. We take them all.
Morris
Gotcha, sir. Okay. Can you tell me how your business has changed over the years or grown?
Groskey
The business—we try to—according to the tax structure—the way it’s set up—we’re allowed a tax deduction to amortize a piece of machinery over a five-year period. And I understand [Barack] Obama has allowed small businesses to amortize that machine in one year. And I like when we bought our big boring mill down there, that’s a $12,000 machine, we could take a tax write-off in five years for that machine for the $12,000. Well, if you happen to have a good year, that $12,000 would mean a lot if you could deduct it, but you can’t deduct it except for in a five-year period. So you wind up paying more taxes for spending more money, and that’s not right. If you’re spending more money, you should be able to deduct it.
Morris
Okay.
Groskey
If it’s shop equipment, it’s capital equipment. But now—I think they got it set up now to where you can deduct that in one-year or two-year period, rather than a five-year period.
Morris
And you said “amortize,” right?
Groskey
Yeah.
Morris
What does that mean, sir?
Groskey
The government would only allow you to deduct off of your taxes—say I bought something for $1,000—a piece of machinery for $1,000. Every year I could get a $200 reduction on that piece of machinery.
Morris
Okay.
Groskey
A tax write-off on that machinery. And at the end of five years, I had a tax write-off of that $1,000. Then that machine could no longer be amortized anymore. That machine was a dead piece of equipment in that business. It was part of the business, it made the business worth that much more, but as far as taxes go, you’re done. There’s no more relief on taxes for it.
Morris
Okay. So, well, I know we talked about this a little bit earlier, um, how is business doing these days?
Groskey
Very bad. Our little shop down there was doing great up until 2002, and I could see then it was starting to slide, because we’d have customers the whole gamut of Central Florida. We’d have everything from photographic shops to big truck manufacturers, truck garages, and the likes of that. The whole gamut. We made parts for everybody. And all of them now have started slowing down, slowing down, slowing down. Because I’m interested enough to ask, “Well, Bill, how’s it going? Is your business going?” “Yeah, we’re up about 10 percent.” “We’re up 15 percent.” And it’s this way across the board.
There’s only one person that’s got a business in Central Florida that’s got more business than he can handle, and that’s the auctioneers. Now, Don [M.] Dennett in Sanford—[D. M.] Dennett Auctioneering—has been a friend of mine since he was in high school, and Don is running a very good business today. We went to a sale last week over here in Casselberry. [inaudible], a multi-million dollar company, a beautiful shop, bankrupt, up for sale, it went on the auction block. I said to Don at the sale, I said, “Don,” I said, “Why in the world would something like this happen?” He said, “There’s no volume.” There’s no volume of work. He happened to have an Air Force contract that kept him going for the last two or three years. When that contract ended, he was done, because he had so much invested in big equipment, nothing to do. He had to sell out. Don says, “I could have a sale—an auction a day, if I wanted to. There’s[sic] that many people going bankrupt.” But he only has one a week, because the market will only handle so much. Otherwise, you’d have people there buying shares for a dime and the likes of it. He waits until the smoke clears, then he’ll have another auction.
Morris
Okay, sir.
Groskey
But he is busy all the time, believe me. Right now he’s ready for two more auctions. I talked to him yesterday. He got two more shops that went out, and a bunch of restaurant equipment again. A couple more restaurants went broke, and he’s gonna sell them at the auction. But he has got more work than he knows what to do with. Because that’s people’s downfall that he’s advantaged—he’s taking advantage of.
Morris
This is not a problem you’re having though, sir?
Groskey
No. We’re sitting tight. We’re solid. We don’t owe a dime to anybody. We have one thing. We buy steel on a30-day basis. We buy sheet, plate, angle, and beam, and bar from three different companies. We pay our bills at the end of the month, every month, religiously. Every 30 days, we pay our invoices up and they’re done. We run no credit with nobody, pay cash for everything.
Morris
Okay, sir. The proper way to run a business, right?
Groskey
And 90 percent of the people—I’d say 95 percent of the people that we work for appreciate that fact, because their paperwork don’t carry over month to month to month to month. When they deal with us, and come out, if we don’t have a prior agreement of 30 days on invoice, they pay cash and bring a check with them, because that’s the only way we’ll work. We won’t chase any money. You can’t spend your time chasing bad debts. And over the last 40 years, I don’t think we’ve lost a hundred dollars, and that’s because somebody died, and there was no heirs. That’s the only reason.
Morris
Gotcha, sir. Well, I know you said that they ruined Central Florida.
Groskey
Yep. That’s right. Yep.
Morris
Would you say there’s anything good in Central Florida, anything that—I mean, you discussed what had gone wrong. Would anything in your mind have gone right?
Groskey
Well, sure. What Florida did, by them having all of their eggs in one basket with tourism, they’ve helped other industries and other things grow with them. The motel industry grew, the restaurants and the stores, the retailers and one thing another. A lot of those people now have picked up to where they rely on all of these people that’s coming in. But when people come out of the airport, and they go to Disney World, they’re more or less captive at Disney World. Now, most of them are here say two days, three days a week, something like this. their money is limited to what they can do, and when they have to spend $75 to go up to that gate, they’re gonna think twice about having to go outside to buy something. Disney’s smart enough to know this. That’s why they’ve got them captive. Restaurants, hotels, motels, the whole nine yards. Get them in the gate and keep them.
But there’s[sic] still a few people who want to see Central Florida. They want to get out and look around. “We haven’t come out here.” But that—Central Florida in that respect has grown along with all the tourists, and it’s helped the people that did stay here by giving them more of an opportunity to do things. Bowling alleys, and your arts, and a lot of your museums have grown. Your arts and science have grown. Everything has helped the local people, and I consider myself to be part of the local people. But they have given us an opportunity of more things which weren’t here.
Morris
Okay, sir.
Groskey
So you can give them the benefit of the doubt. They—their finances and their establishment created an environment that people wanted. So it kind of rubs off on us local people. We’re able to go take advantage of it too.
Morris
Okay, sir. That’s a—I was going to say, that’s a very interesting perspective, because you never go to those parks. You never do any of those things.
Groskey
No, no.
Morris
But the benefit—the side benefits they bring with them…
Groskey
Right. Right.
Morris
Gotcha, sir. I know before you mentioned you were, that you had served in the military.
Groskey
The military?
Morris
Could you tell us about that, sir? Like what branch? Where? When? What were you doing?
Groskey
Well, I was in the military prior to—oh, what the hell they called it? Well, when the Japanese hit Pearl Harbor.
Morris
Okay.
Groskey
And I was in Fort Knox[, Kentucky] in the regular Army before the Japanese hit Honolulu and Oahu[, Hawaii]. Now, when I went into Fort Thomas, Kentucky—I went from there to Fort Knox. I went to Fort Thomas, Kentucky, there wasn’t enough of us in that barracks to keep the fire going at night. We had to take shifts to keep the fire going at night. They declared war. The next day, they were standing in the hallways. They had to have so many people pouring into that place. There was a mobilization overnight. Believe me.
Well, when I enlisted in the service—I enlisted, I was never drafted—I enlisted in the Air Force. There was[sic] no openings. So I left Fort Thomas, Kentucky, and went to Atlantic City, New Jersey, for basic training. Well, when we got out there, of course the wartime conditions and everything—blackout at night and the whole story, everything was all window-curtains [inaudible] and the likes of it, no headlights and everything. Well, I left there and went out to Chanute Fields,[3] Illinois, and joined the Air Force. They had an opening, so I got transferred from the Third [United States] Army into the Air Force, which I had enlisted for to begin with. I wanted to get in the Air Force. So I went out there to Chanute Fields and went through tech school, graduated from tech school, and got assigned to a regular Air Force unit, and was with them for quite a while. And then, well, we stationed in California, and stationed in Texas, and stationed in New Mexico and quite a few places.
And then, as the [World] War [II] progressed, they took our unit and broke it up into four units, and made air combat cargo units out of them. So what we done was to air-drop supplies, ammunition, and equipment to the troops that were on the ground. That was our main—we were a transfer. I’d say an airborne trucking outfit. But on our mission, whenever we took what we had there, if there was another outstanding hospital in the area, we went to that base and haul a load of wounded back. “Litter patients,” we used to call them. So, we’d take a load of supplies over wherever we were going, and bring a load of litter patients back to the next general hospital. And that was our total obligation. And I did that in China, Burma, and India.
Now, when the war ended, we were flying into Chongqing[, China] when the war ended, from Myitkyina [West], North Burma. That was our last big U.S. air base in that part of the world. And when I say “big air base”—it was a grass, dirt strip with landing mats, but that was still—in that part of the world, that was a big air base. We flew [Douglas] C-47 [Skytrain]s, [Curtiss] C-46 [Commando]s, and [Douglas] C-54 [Skymaster]s. And when the—when the Japs—we had moved out of Myikyina and went down to Bhamo, Burma right at the war’s end.
And we were flying in into Saigon[, Vietnam],[4] and when the war ended, then our orders—the way our orders were written that, at the war’s end, we will be dis—our organization, equipment, will be disbanded by the most expeditious means. And our colonel, who was Colonel Scannel[sp] [inaudible], was a 36-year-old [United States Military Academy at] West Point man and a full-command pilot. Now that’s a hard nut to crack. That’s as good as you can get in the Air Force. We were all sitting down at what they called the “bomb crater.” We had a movie that night. Just a big bombed-out hole in the ground. We was all sitting around. They suddenly flashed the lights on the camera, and he says, “Boys, it’s all over.” And it took about a minute for it to sink in—the fact that the war was over. And it was. And then two days later, we pulled out of there, loaded our planes, we went back down into Tasgaon, India. But when we left, all the tents, all the equipment, the toolboxes, everything that was left on that strip, was either given to the hill tribes or was destroyed in the fire. We closed the base up, and that’s the way we left.
Now, one story that vividly sticks in my mind was at Myitkyina—that’s M-Y-I-T-K-I-N-A[5]—Myitkyina, North Burma. Before the war, it was a big town. Well, the Japanese, in order to go on their route from Japan—through China into India—that’s what their object was. They’d already just about taken over China, and they were into India pretty deep. Well, our object was to see that they didn’t get any further. We were kind of stopped dead [inaudible] in the middle. MARS Task Force and Merrill’s Marauders [inaudible] were the ground troops, and we’d get everything they had—ate, fed, shot, and whatever—we supplied them—air-dropped whatever to get to them. Well, one day, on the south end of our strip, was[sic] two fighter groups that supported us as air cover while we were flying and dropping supplies—the 82nd and 93rd fighter group. There was [North American Aviation] P-51 [Mustang]s and [Republic] P-47 [Thunderbolt]s. Now, most of these fighter planes, they were bombing down at the—in the Mekong valley [inaudible], and they were down around the bridge over the River Kwai.[6] That was one of their last bombing missions.
Well, the line chief and I were standing alongside the strip, and we was[sic] watching it. They’d take off about five, six, seven planes at a time. They’d fly together as a group, low-altitude bombing on these targets, like roads and bridges and commercial buildings that was of value to Japanese. So, Master Sergeant Hinky [inaudible] and I were standing there with a hot—typical hot day—and we was watching these P-47s take off, one right after the other. Well, when a fighter plane’s carrying a thousand-pound bomb under the belly of it, they got a load. Well, they would start up there at the end of the strip, and they’d tow [inaudible] them. They were full-throttle. By the time they got halfway up the strip, they’d be just about off the ground. And at the end of the strip was rice paddies and jungle. Well, we watched these planes—one, two, three. And the third one coming down the line on all of a sudden, he went straight up in the air. And line chief said to me, said, “Well, look at that damn fool.” And I said, “Yeah, but look at there.” And a thousand-pound bomb had let go of the bottom of that plane, and here he was coming down the middle of the strip tail first—a thousand-pounder. So Hinky looked at me, and I looked at him, and I said, “We better duck.” And we went under the first thing that was there, and it was a big truck, and we went under it. Well, that bomb went right at the end of the strip, went right out in the rice paddy, and just settled down as nice-you-please and didn’t explode. It went “poof” right in the mud. We crawled out from the trunk and Hinky said to me, he said, “Damn, that was close.” I says[sic], “Too close.” And I said, “Yeah, but look where we were.” And we were underneath a tanker full of hundred-octane gasoline. Oh, boy. That was a nice experience to have. That was just one of the little things that happened throughout the war.
Morris
When did you, what age were you signed up, sir?
Groskey
My 21st birthday. I was in combat.
Morris
Okay. When did you, uh—but you said you signed—you enlisted prior to World War II, correct?
Groskey
Yeah. I was 18.
Morris
Oh, okay. And did you enlist right after high school?
Groskey
Yeah.
Morris
Okay, sir. And, um…
Groskey
Matter of fact, about—I went to trade school.
Morris
Oh.
Groskey
That’s how I got my start to shops [inaudible]. I was going to trade school, and we had just finished. The way our school worked—it was called Dayton Cooperative High School. They had—well, all the instructors were professional people. They were professional in their trade. Well, the shops is what I was in basically, and of course, all of the instructors were master toolmakers. Well, when the war started, my class was just about ready. We went to school two weeks and worked two weeks. That’s the way co-op[erative] was set up. You had to carry a[sic] 80 average to go to school. If you didn’t maintain your class grades, as well as your shop grades, you got pulled out. You had to go to a regular school. You could no longer become a craftsman. You had to be interested and have a know-how to what you wanted to do. You had to want to know what you were doing. Well, at that time—that was in—oh, I think we graduated in December that year—and I went into the service September, just prior to that. And I’d say 90 percent of our class—males in our class—all went in about the same time. The whole class of ’41 just about all went in the military just about the same time. And I don’t think—of course, we lost track of all of them—but I don’t think after graduation—that year after graduation—it wasn’t more than a handful that even graduated after that because they all went in the service.
Morris
Was that very normal at the time, sir?
Groskey
Yes. Very much so.
Morris
Oh, okay.
Groskey
The patriotism was extremely high. They had—Japanese had submarines out off the East Coast, they had submarines off the West Coast. They were at our back door.
Morris
Hm. Okay, sir, and you said you served for five years?
Groskey
Mmhm.
Morris
And did you—was that when the war was over, or...
Groskey
Yeah. Yeah.
Morris
And you came…
Groskey
I was in the 1348th air combat—air drop unit. And, when that—our orders were cut in North Africa before we left Algiers[, Algeria], when we was sent into the CBI (China-Burma-India] Theater, the general that wrote our orders for our outfit said that, “You will be there for the duration plus six months.” Now that’s just like a life sentence. How long will it last? You gotta be there, and six months more. But luckily, when it ended, we was gone out of there off of our former base in two days—three days at the most.
We went what they called “down the valley” into India, then we stayed there to be “disoriented”—is what they called it—to be re-civilianized. We had to turn in our guns, and all of our grenades, and all of our fighting equipment, and try to be civilians. Well, that didn’t—took longer than that to do. But anyway, we stayed there, I’d say, for a period we was in Tasgaon, India—for about a month. And then we got on the [USS] General [M. B.] Stewart and came home. We came home first-class on a big general ship, which was a well-relief. We could have hot meals. You had a bed to sleep on. I mean, you wasn’t[sic] sleeping on the ground. I mean, we’re civilians now. Yeah. This is really living.
Well, anyway, we got back into Camp Atterbury, Indiana, which was a discharge center. And the man in charge of the center—our whole outfit was there. We had 1,300 men and officers with our whole complete unit. All of our pilots were drafted civil pilots—Delta, Eastern, all of them were commercial pilots. They hated the military. Between them and us, the ground people, we got along fine, because we didn’t like it either. We got along great. Well anyway, when we got into Camp Atterbury, we got all the shots and all the rest of the stuff, and turned everything in, and got all the paperwork done, the commanding officer of that base had our commander, General Scannel—or Colonel Scannel—stand up, and he said, “Colonel,” he said, “we want to offer you people, your outfit, 1,380 men, all an increase in rank, one rank, with a one-year contract.” The Colonel says, “I would like to speak for our men, in behalf of them.” He said, “We have 1,500 hours, most of us, of combat flying.” He said, “We want to go home and stay there. It’s your baby. We quit.” And that’s the way it ended. There wasn’t one man re-enlisted. We had it.
Morris
You had your fill?
Groskey
We had it. Don’t want no part of it. But I’ll tell you still today—still today, there’s[sic] things at night flash through my mind of what we had done and what we did.
Morris
Well, thank you for your service.
Groskey
It sticks in your mind. At that time, and the way the elements, and the way everything was, you don’t forget things like that. No, I don’t care how old you get, you will not forget them. You try to, but there’s[sic] things that always come back, like things that got blew[sic] up, and things that got burnt out, and stuff. You don’t forget it. I don’t care what you do. I’d be down running lath, and sometime you remember that time or something like that.
We changed an engine [inaudible], and we used to call him “Tokyo Joe.” There was a zero. He used to come over about two o’clock every afternoon, and he’d drop what they called cluster bombs. Small, little ones. Just enough to worry you. Well, one of them hits your tent—boy, you got a mess. Blow everything up. Tokyo Joe would come out every afternoon two o’clock, and he’d drop a few cluster bombs, and back over the mountains he’d go.
Well finally, one day, we had a [Lockheed] P-38 [Lightning] group that was going into Saigon. And this one pilot, he said, “Well, you know,” he said, “I’m gonna get that S.B.” He said, “I can fly higher than he can.” So here come old Tokyo Joe over one afternoon right after chow, and we seen[sic] this boy fire that P-38 up and he went straight up in the air, and Tokyo Joe knew something was happening. He turned tail and started to run, and before he got over the base of the Chin Hills, he blew him out of the sky. That was the end of the Japs. That was the last time we had him.
Morris
No more Tokyo Joe?
Groskey
No more Tokyo Joe.
Morris
Well, what would you do with your afternoons after that, then, sir?
Groskey
Oh, we worked, we worked round the clock. We had them—our planes flew seven days a week, 24 hours a day.
Morris
Okay, sir. How long after you got back before you moved to Florida? How long did that take? Did you have to shovel snow for a winter?
Groskey
No. it wasn’t too long. A couple years. Yeah.
Morris
Oh okay, sir.
Groskey
Well, I was just feeling things out to try to become a civilian again, and decide which way I wanted to go. I knew I wanted to be into metalwork, but I didn’t know how I wanted to approach it. I didn’t know exactly how I wanted to do it—how I wanted to really get things started. And then, as we got married, and we had a couple kids, and one thing another started, I said, “Well, I gotta get my own business going. That’s all there is to it.” I just can’t—I can’t work for somebody else, because he’s not only going to take the cream of the crop, and I’m going to do all the dirty work. I want to be in a position where I can do the dirty work, take the cream of the crop, and try to establish some new business. Try to build a new product. Try to do things.
Morris
Makes sense, sir.
Groskey
Without being a number in somebody’s shop. So that was the way it started, that’s the way Reg Co. came about.
Morris
Okay, sir. Can you tell me about your family?
Groskey
Yeah.
Morris
Like who they are, how old, what year were they born?
Groskey
Okay. Well, we got married in 1946. And Larry [Groskey]—Larry is the oldest one. He come along a year later. And Ronnie [Groskey] was the next son born, about a year or two later. Then the twins came along about two years later.
Morris
Two boys? Two girls?
Groskey
Karen [Groskey] and Sharon [Groskey]. And then Rusty [Groskey] came along about a year after that, and then that was the end of our family. We had five children.
Morris
And what’s your wife’s name, sir?
Groskey
Mary Ann [Groskey].
Morris
Oh, okay. And what are your children doing now?
Groskey
Well, the oldest one, Larry, is up in De Leon Springs. He’s got a rat farm. He raises rats commercially. These people that have reptiles and all kinds of weird people—they—he’s got a steady stream. He’s got quite an operation going, many buildings full of these rats. And he sells them all over the world. Now, there’s that many kooks out there, but he’s got a real good business going.
Morris
Okay, sir.
Groskey
Now, the other son, Ronnie—he’s got a drywall business. He does drywall work and painting. The girls—Sharon, my one daughter, is a schoolteacher over in Sanford. Karen is an expediter for Fed Ex downtown. And Rusty works in the shop with me.
Morris
Oh, okay, sir. And, do you have a—how did you meet your wife?
Groskey
Well, that was a long story too. At—we both worked at National Cash Register. When I came out of the service, I went to work for National Cash Register, because my dad had worked there all his life, her dad had worked there all his life. So it was just a simple matter of walking in, getting a job, because that was where you—if you decided to work there, you had a lifetime job. They didn’t hire people and fire them the next day. There was enough business in that company. It was self-sustaining. When they made National Cash Register, they went all over the world and there was boxcar loads of material coming in every day. It was its own entity. When you went to work there, you quit looking for a job, because if you couldn’t make it one department, they’d transfer you to another department. There was 38,000 people working in that building—in that factory. They could find something for you to do.
They had a huge restaurant. So at noontime one day, the fellow that I was kind of running with at the time—he was a Navy man. We got along real good. He was running screw machines. So was I. So one day at noontime I said—well Friday, they always had fish fry, and boy, it was good fish. So Friday we’d go to the mess hall and eat lunch. Well, while we were sitting there eating lunch, Annie and her girlfriend—she worked up in Building 4. It was assembly—some kind of assembly job. Well anyway, her and her girlfriend was down there eating too. One of them had dropped a spoon on the floor. And I don’t know whether Mike picked it up or I did, but one of us picked it up, and we handed it to them, and we got to talking, and that’s how it started.
Morris
Okay, sir. Something as small as a…
Groskey
It was obscure as obscure can be. So I said to her, I said, “Yeah, my name’s Dick.” She said, “My name’s Ann.” And she said, “I work over in Building 4.” I said, “Well, we work in Building 27.” And we got to talking there for a few minutes, just at lunch period, and I said, “Well,” I says[sic], “where do you live?” She says, “I live out off of Smithville Road.” And I said, “Well, I live out in Walnut Hills”—both parts of east Dayton. And, I says, “Well, what are you gonna do Friday night?” She said, “I don’t know.” I said, “Well, you want to go bowling?” She said, “Sure.” I got her phone number, and that was it. We started going together. We got married, and she got laid off, because at NCR, you couldn’t have two people in the same family unless they were married, and once they got married, you couldn’t hire them. Two people can’t work there.
Morris
Okay.
Groskey
She got married. She got laid off. Well, that’s how it started. So we got married, she got laid off, and I went out, I bought a little piece of property, and I started building a house, and over a period of about two years, I got the house built, and we had all the children then. Well, most of the children then. And one thing led to another, and we outgrew that, and we went out in the country, and I bought five acres and built a house out there, and when all the children were in school, that’s when we came to Florida.
Things got real bad up there, up there in the ‘50s. You couldn’t buy a job. It got the same way here, except it was localized. And I went to Indiana, went to Kentucky, I went all over. There was[sic] no jobs. Nobody was hiring. So I said, “Okay.” I said, “We’re not shoveling more snow.” I said, “We’re loading up and we’re leaving.” So I hired a local trucker. I said, “Now, I want you to move my shop.” We took just the prime equipment out of there, just enough to know we could make a living. Drills and saws, a couple laths, and one thing another. Everything else, had a public sale. Sold the house, the farm, everything. We got in the truck and we moved, come to Florida. Been here ever since.
Morris
Had a lot of reasons to come to Florida.
Groskey
Yep. And like I say, when I went to work at Trade Tool Engraving, we’ve never gone out of a job since. I went back to the motel in Titusville, I said, “I wanna pack a sandwich and a couple apples or something.” I said, “I’m going to work tonight.” She says, “You’re doing what?” I said, “I got a job over in Orlando.” She says, “You kidding me?” I says, “No. here’s the paper.” And looked at it, and she said, “Well, I’ll be damned.” Been working ever since.
Morris
Well, there you go, sir. Do you feel like there’s anything we haven’t talked about that you’d like to talk about?
Groskey
No. We’re just about as plain as you can get. Everybody in this part of the world knows us and knows what we do. We’ve got a reputation for doing a good job quick at a fair price. We—I don’t think we’ve had more than one or two disgruntled people that needed something done, and that was the fact that they were the type of people that nobody could satisfy. They have never come back, and I’m glad of it. Now, as you see, we have no advertisement whatsoever, yet we’re busy all the time. That speaks for itself. We do good work on time at a good price. And people always come back.
Morris
The ones you want to come back [laughs].
Groskey
And they will tell somebody else. I always give them a business card. I said, “Now, your neighbor wants something done, here it is.” That’s the only advertisement we got.
Morris
Okay. Well, thank you, sir, for taking the time out today.
Groskey
I’ll show you one of my cards here. Yeah. There you got them right there.
Wilt
This is an interview with Mr. James Singleton at the Altamonte Springs [City] Library. This interview is being conducted on July 21, 2010. The interviewer’s name is Ashley Wilt and I’m representing the Museum of Seminole County History and the Linda McKnight Batman Oral History Project for the Historical Society of Central Florida.
Mr. Singleton, you are Deputy Director of Facilities Fleet and Urban Maintenance for Altamonte Springs. That’s a very responsible position, which shows you have achieved quite a bit in your years with the City of Altamonte Springs. We thought you might be able to tell us some interesting things about the city’s library, its growth and development, and about some of the interesting people who have been involved over the years. You probably have some very interesting stories that you can relate.
Singleton
Yes, I do have some interesting stories. When I first came to work here in Altamonte—1976 of January—the library was run by the Altamonte Springs Civic Club. And Miss Anne Van Allen Klein was the one that donated the first books to this library, and in doing so, it started. We have to reflect back even beyond that. It started in a small house that they had, and they had the books there. Out of that house, they sold newspapers and other goods to earn money to pay the light bill and take care of all the other bills. Well, city employees at that time would help them, because they would carry the newspapers to sell, and then would bring the money back to them. Well, as time progressed, like in the [19]60s—early ‘60s—then they really picked up what they were doing, and they built the building here. The north end of this building was the part that they built. It was an almost 3,000-square foot building. Well, out of that building, they started to grow and develop a bigger collection. So about ’76, when I came, they were still selling newspapers and they had a little gift shop of things that they would sell so they could pay the bills and keep the library going. So it was a very interesting time.
And along with Miss Klein, we have a lady named Sidell Pate, and over time, I came to know Miss Pate very well. As a matter of fact, she would call myself and Bill James her sons, because we looked out for her so very much over the time. Well, as she grew older, we didn’t like for her to drive across [Florida State Road] 436. So we had her, she would go to the post office. So we bought a mailbox and put it in her yard so that she wouldn’t have to go, for her own safety. Well, she lived near here, just about a block away, so we felt good for her to drive from home to here, because she didn’t have to cross any major streets. She was a very delightful person. We loved her very much. So when she passed, she left an endowment to the library for books and so forth, so that we could carry on the traditions here.
But along with that, over the years, the library in 1985—October of 1985—was when the library came under my supervision. At that point in time, we had—the library director was Karen Potter. So Karen worked here with me for a number of years, and then she had an opportunity to go to the Maitland [Public] Library, and she became the library director there. But during that period of time, we started to do some things. We wanted to have a network here. So we did.
So the only other place in the city that have a network was up in [Department of] Public Works, and Building and Light Safety. Well, [Division of] Building and Light Safety had a more extensive network than Public Works, because we had a gentleman here by the name of Phil McMann, who was very computer literate at that time. So we—and when I say we—the next library director that came in was Richard Miller. We wanted a network here. So we got with Phil McMann, and laid out what we wanted to do, and the City allowed us to purchase the equipment, and we started a network here. Which allowed us to do, at that time, so automation, because, you have to realize, programming, at that point in time, was not where it is now. So we started out with a network, and we put our collection on, and then we had some things we could do. We could track patrons, and different things like that. So it was a wonderful. It was wonderful time. It was an exciting time, because we were growing.
Along with that, the [Altamonte Area] Chamber of Commerce was here. They built the south end of this building. And they were here for a number of years. And they outgrew the space, so they went to another location in Seminole County for they could operate and have the space that they needed. At that time, the City of Altamonte Springs purchased that end of the building, and just incorporated the whole library together, which gave us all the space we have now. So then we had the opportunity to move and expand, and we continued to build our network, and the programming that we have, which just made things so much easier at that point in time.
So as we grew, the needs of the city changed. So they started IS [Information System]. And Steve Long was the gentleman that first headed up the IS department. So at that point in time—when I say “the city”—[Altamonte Springs] City Hall—they started IS and they started a network system. Well, everything like at Keller Road, which is where our main treatment plant is, all the information came from there to the library and then it was phoned to the system at City Hall. The other part, the west side of town, came through my network that was in my office, because I controlled all the west side of town at that point in time.
So then, as they grew, they developed the dome, which houses all the computer equipment here. You know, the mainframes and so forth. And slowly, we moved all the individual network servers and everything was packed into there. So, extensive cabling had to be done, and then as time went on, they started putting in fiber optics. It was so funny, the first fiber optics we had was at City Hall. Between City Hall and the [City] Annex. And we knew how much information it could carry, so Phil McMann and myself—we spent a couple days gathering enough material that we could send, because it would just be a blip, and we wanted to see that blip. And it was new to us too. And we got to see that blip, and it was just wonderful, you know. It was just so exciting for us to see those things. So out of that, IS has grown. It manages the whole city, and a lot of things you don’t see. It’s like they have a mirror of the dome at West Altamonte for the IS system[sic], so if this system went down, it would be like a blip on your screen, because the one at West Altamonte would pick up and continue. They have redundancy, like where the main cable comes in, they have another area where the main cable comes in. So if the backup were to cut one cable, the system would never go down, and they have the redundancy all over the city for that. So it’s set up very nicely so that we would never be at a loss for moving our data throughout the city, back and forth.
We’ll go back to the library. In 1985, you know, it was like a fledgling still, and then with Karen leaving, and Richard coming in, Richard brought—Richard Miller—brought fresh, new ideas and things he wanted to do. Richard, being very computer-literate, was an asset too. So a lot of things we could do, and get things going. So in the beginning, all we had was a few computers for the people that worked here—for staff to use. We had no computers for public use at that time. So we got in touch with Bill [& Melinda] Gates Foundation, and Bill Gates Foundation donated six computers to this library back in the late ‘80s, around late ’88-early ’89. And then we were able to set up this kiosk that you see out there, where it had six computers that were donated to us. We got those up and going, and then that was the beginning of having public access to computers, so people could do what they needed to do. So that was—that was very exciting for us here at the library.
So since then, you can see, we’ve grown. We have about 16-18 out there that we use, and they stay busy. Over time, it got so busy. In the last two or three years, we had to put time limits on them. So, you know, because people would come in and want to stay all day, but in order to try and meet the needs of our customers, we put time limits. So once you start your session, it comes up in the screen, it starts a little clock, it lets you know how much time you’ve used, how much you have left, so when that time is up, then you leave, and it makes way for someone else to come in. And so they did use a computer. So all those things have been very exciting.
Let’s go back in time again. We started a Mobile Information Center, which was a bus, and we named that bus “MIC”—M-I-C. And it had a computer with legs on it. It was running. MIC was an acronym for Mobile Information Center. And we set it up, because the library’s here on the east side of town, and then the thinking of the city fathers—city managers and so forth—was how could we help our citizens—the older population—so they didn’t have to travel so far to come here and get books. So we created that program. And now, you talk about funny. When we—we brought MIC out, we had a little grand opening, and we had Mayor Dudley Bates here, and so we were going to christen it. We had this bottle of champagne. So when it was time to christen it, Mayor Bates swung the bottle of champagne, and it bounced back. So he did it again, and it bounced back. So he really had to lay into it. Finally the bottle broke, and MIC was christened, and ready to go on the road.
And so that was a very delightful program they had, because we were not just the west side of town, but the east side too, and it had handicapped access, so we could bring a handicap person on. They could get in. The bus was designed for that reason, so we could service our patrons. We went to the nursing care facilities, and people would come on. They could check out books. They could actually come on and pick out their own books, check them out. And then we would go back, and they could come back on the bus again, and return their books, and get other books to read. So this was a very successful program. Same thing was done on the east side of town. They have nursing facilities over there—west side—and nursing facilities over there, and we accommodated those people over there also.
Well, as time went on—you know, the recession that we’re in—the amount of money—operating funds for everybody—changed. So, we did away with MIC—the bus—because it cost money to operate it, but we didn’t do away with the program. We still deliver books to people that are incapacitated throughout the city. So that they can have the books they need to read. So that’s one of the things that I really enjoy about working for the city. You see the slogan on the paper—they use pencils that say, “We are people that care about people.” And you can really see it. They did away with the bus, but not with the program. So people get what they need to read, we get back and pick the books up, and carry them different books, and it’s just a wonderful arrangement, especially for people that are limited in their means of having transportation to go back and forth.
Another thing here, where we’re sitting here today, is the Youth Library Area. At one time, we did not have this. You know, we had youth books, but not a designated area for these ones to come sit, and do things, and have the books that they really liked to read, and enough of them. So this was one thing that we created. It took a number of years to do so, but slowly and surely we did, and this area is used by young adults. And it’s summertime now, so it kind of slows off, but when school starts, they come, they do their homework projects here, they have the ability to do research, and so that worked out real well. I guess the thing that I was most pleased with: when the Chamber of Commerce moved, they gave us the area for the children’s library. They gave us an opportunity to develop that area. And having a few kids myself, I really appreciate the area.
I have eight kids, and so as we develop that area—when we finish, you may take a look. It’s designed just for kids. The rugs, all them things in there, the decoration is for kids, and make them feel at home. And they don’t have to hear anybody say, “Shh!” They can be a kid, enjoy the library, and so that was just a wonderful addition. And I think that area, for checking out books and so forth, it accounts for 40 percent of the books that are checked out of the library. So we have a deep interest in kids.
And in the summertime, we have kid’s programs. They do things like—we bring in from the Sanford zoo,[1] they’ll bring animals in, and they’ll have programs for the kids, maybe the parents, some of the things, and then they have the kids. I’ve seen 60-70 kids in that area for that program. We’ve done other programs in—like we bring beekeepers in to help them understand about bees, the things that they do.
And then when school’s going on, we bring tutors in to help these young ones with their lessons and so forth, if they have a problem in math. And so some of the schools work with us in that regard. And some of the teachers will come, and volunteer their time, so we can help these kids. Some of those kids have really improved, and I don’t know if I should say this or not, but the Chinese restaurant on the corner—China First, I believe it is—their kids that needed help reading. It was a result of the program that we have here that the kids greatly improved in reading.
So one thing leads to another. They have a writing contest here every year for eighth graders. So we give prizes and we also publish the book of all the writings of everyone that entered something in. And so winners—first, second, third—will go to their school, will present their school with a copy of the book, and also, the student that wrote the winning entry will get a copy of the book. Well, they’ve been very generous at the China First, of helping the library with the prizes and things that they give away. Because that’s how they show their appreciation for how much they helped their kids. So it’s a lot of good stories that I know about, and probably some that I don’t, because even when I’m not here, they continue to do good things like that.
So it’s so many good things that come out of this library that even Seminole County has come over and observed our programs—Seminole County Library System[2]—So I’m very proud of it, and if I had to do it all over again, I would gladly do that.
Wilt
That’s amazing. Those are great stories. Have you ever experienced any interesting or colorful patrons?
Singleton
Yes. We had a gentleman that used to come over from St. Cloud, and always wanted to watch pornography, he always wanted to pull up pornographic pictures, so one day I told him, I said, “You cannot do that here.” And he said, “Well, I have freedom of speech.” And I said, “Well, I have these young kids here, and I have all these ladies work here. I will not allow it.” He said, “Well, I’ll sue you.” So I said, “You do that.” I said, “The lawyer’s at City Hall. I don’t handle lawsuits. I maintain this library.” So he said, “I’m going to watch what I want.” So I said, “Well, I’ll tell you what. First of all, I’ll open the door with your head, and then I’ll skin your nose on the asphalt as I throw you out. You will not observe this in here while these kids are here.” He said, “I’ll see you in court.” I said, “I’ll be there.” And I told him—I said, “Well, if this is what you like, buy your computer, set it up at home, and you can watch it yourself. Won’t bother anyone.” But, you know, most—all ladies work here, except one person. So you just couldn’t have that. And the kids come and out. I’d always be in the area in which, you know, that’s really designated for them, they come with their parents and things like that. So you have to look out for things like that, and I probably was just a little bit off the right path, but that’s how I felt about it. But he never came back. And he never sued. So it worked out just fine.
Wilt
Have you, over time, seen patrons that came back and enjoyed the child’s room, and now they’re bring their children? Or they’re migrating into the Young Adult room?
Singleton
Yes. There are people that come here and bring their kids that were patrons here prior to that. And they’ve—they watched the progression of growth in the library, so now they come in. And see, what’s interesting about us being small, it’s more personal when you come here. And sometimes if you come down in the kids’ room, they know these kids by name basically, their parents, and so forth. So it does a couple of things. It makes the people feel very welcome here, and it’s a warm atmosphere, but also, it creates a very good atmosphere of safety, because, like, if you came in, and you know they don’t belong with this kid, because they know basically who the people that come here. And then some of our senior patrons, they come here for the same reason. And I think that that’s been the focus of this library, almost from the beginning, our senior patrons, although we cater to all groups of people. It’s just really a marvelous arrangement that we have here.
Wilt
That is great. Now, you were telling me how the library was first established, or first run, by the Civic Club. Do you know if the Civic Club just joined together, and bought the house, and wanted to have this library—have a library? Do you know how this began?
Singleton
The house really originally was a gift, and so they started working out of that. And like I said, Miss Klein—she donated her collection, and that actually started the library over 50 years ago. And then that was the beginning of the library. As I said earlier, they would sell newspapers, and they ran a thrift shop, so that they could pay their bills and so forth at that time.
Wilt
That’s great. When you first came—you said you came in 1976—did you come to works specifically with the library? To work with the city? How did you get involved personally?
Singleton
Well, when I first came to work here, I was in charge of all the heavy equipment and everything that went underground. I worked heavily with the Water Department, and the Wastewater Divisions.[3] I worked there from ’76 until October ’85. They had a—they started a program in Wastewater for reclaimed water. And so it was such a big focus on that that—that Fleet Facilities and Urban Beautification, which was at that time buildings and grounds—there was like—they needed to move those and they started another division. So at that time, I applied for the job of the division manager of those divisions. So they moved that out of Public Works. Those sections were in Public Works, they moved them to Leisure Services. So that they could focus on developing the regional reclaimed water system that we have here. So, when that happened, well, the library was in [Altamonte Springs] Leisure Services. And so that became one of the things that I was assigned to oversee. And that’s when Karen Potter and myself[sic] came together, and then we started working together, taking over some of the other things mentioned previously.
Wilt
Wow. That’s really neat. Do you think after your retirement you’ll still stay involved with the library?
Singleton
Absolutely.
Wilt
More on a patron-base?
Singleton
No. when I retire, I’d like to come back, volunteer, and I would like to work in the children’s room, as I have for many, many times. I sit in on many of the programs, the readings, and so forth. I’m going to continue to enjoy that. It’s been very therapeutic to me. So I will continue to do that. I will also continue to work with the disabled population that Vinnie Coon oversees. I’d like to come in when they have their functions and cook. Help to cook, prepare the meals. My son comes with me. That’s something we like to do.
Wilt
Are there any stories that you can tell us specifically about the library and yourself that—how the library has helped you? Like you said, the children’s room is therapeutic to you.
Singleton
Yeah. Well, the library itself—I mean, I like to read too. But it’s helped me to understand the workings, and when I went to school, when you went in the library, everything was tight-lipped, you know. But just to see now—I mean, you don’t come in dancing and singing, but you can talk. And they see everything loosen up some. But the thing I’ve enjoyed, as Mr. [John] Batman was telling you about, the little history room, some of the buildings. Well, the [Altamonte Springs City] Commission has supported some of the things we have here, like the domes that protect the little buildings. In times past, they have authorized money to the Historical Society [of Central Florida] so they can buy the domes that protect the buildings and things like that.
I’ve had such great support and the things that we’ve done here in the library, from the city fathers, because they recognize the need for the arts and the cultural things that are here at this location. And so this has been very rewarding to me. And so I can go in and say, “Well, I need a new set of reference books.” And they could very well say, “Well, what’s wrong with the old ones?” But they don’t say that. They see the need and they help keep up. They’ve helped us keep pace with what’s going on in technology and so forth. So those are some of the things that overwhelm you sometimes.
Wilt
Are there any stories that you would like to convey to the people of the library? Maybe about its building, or maybe the contents in the library? Even the city itself?
Singleton
Yeah. I would just like to say that people should really appreciate this library. For several reasons. It’s local. And it has easy access. And I know they have a—right up the street, they have a [Seminole] County [Public] Library branch,[4] just on the other side of [U.S. Route] 17-92. But the city still maintains this library, because it benefits the local residents. And when you see—if you could just go out sometime, which I have done many times, to these individuals and they get the books, because they like to read, and they get the books, and you know, it’s not a lot of hassle for them. You come back and pick them up and carry new books. They really appreciate that. It just gives you a warm feeling all inside.
And so I’ve been working here, I’m in my 35th year. And the city has always been so progressive. I appreciate that as much as anything—how they are progressive, and that they also would give you empowerment to do things. I mean, within reason. And so we can make changes, like to change the layout of the library so we have a better traffic flow, and things like that. We didn’t have to get a congressional approval of that. Those are things that we can do. Like painting, and so forth. We can change the color schemes, because, you know, they need to be changed. And they’ve always allowed those things.
And I would imagine, as time goes on, they will still do that, because I think this is the most progressive city in all of Seminole County. As a matter of fact, I know it is. I’ve been very proud to work here. I’m pretty sure when I leave, I’ll probably get up one morning and come to work before I realize I’m not coming to work. But I appreciate those things. And then, they just work with us, hand-in-hand. He called over here one day, and asked about some information that he wanted. Well, when he got over here, they had it all laid out for him. So they’re good at things like that, and so that’s what they do. They disseminate information, and if you need something, they will get it for you. Myself and Bill James—we’re working with the Winwood Group, which is the neighbors next door here. They were working with the school over there, [Seminole-]Rosenwald [School]. You familiar with Rosenwald schools?
Wilt
Yes.
Singleton
Well, they wanted some space in there, because they’re closing the school down at the end of this year. And they’re moving all those students to another location. So there’s a need over there for some of the things, for seniors, and other youth programming things like that. So we help them in that regard, and we also help them appreciate that the kids and adults in that area are coming to the library.
And if you notice when you first came in, the computer section was full. Well, that was a computer class that they teach before the library actually opens to the public. So we made that available, most specifically, to the seniors, because there’s so many things they could do at home on their computer rather than trying to get a ride to Social Security [Administration Office] or wherever they need to go. They could do it at home on a computer.
And we also made arrangements with some of the people in the neighborhood that were computer-literate—had computers. They’ll work with those individuals so they can come to their home, do their paperwork and stuff right there, without having to secure a ride to go to Sanford and things like that. So the library, you know—we reach out. Not just to the city proper, but we’ll help our neighbors too, also. So those are just some of the things that the city does and allow us to do, because they are futuristic in their thinking.
Wilt
Wow. That is just great. Now, you were talking about the admiration you have for the city and its progression, and the way it adapts to progress. Have you seen any city changes that—like you were just explaining? But progress that you haven’t seen in other cities or in other areas of Central Florida?
Singleton
Yes. I have. We were talking about the reclaimed water system. It’s called Project APRICOT [A Prototype Realistic. Innovative Community of Today]. That’s the name of it. It started off Project APRICOT, and so, at the time, when the city started Project APRICOT, Don Newnan was here. He was the project works director. The only other place in Central Florida area was St. Petersburg. They were doing on a limited basis, recapturing some of the water that was coming out of the septic tank systems and processing it and so forth. But this was the first city to do a complete system city-wide of reclaimed water in the state of Florida.
And so, when it first started, you know, they hired a young lady named Allison Marcue, and she had the job of selling wastewater, so to speak. But it’s not really wastewater when it’s all cleaned up. You know, there’s some affluent, and it’s all cleaned up. And I’ve seen—if you go out to the plant where water comes out, they have this pool. And the bottom of it, it has this apricot logo. And you look down in, it’s clear. It’s just as clear as glass. And I’ve seen, people can actually drink the water. I mean, it’s that clean when it goes out. And I remember DEP [Department of Environmental Protection] fined us one time, because the water we were putting in the river, was cleaner that the water in the river. I never really understood that, but they fought it, and they wouldn’t rescind the fine, but they did reduce it. So you would think, we’re putting a better quality of water in, then they were taking out, everything was there. So as a result of that, you know, we have—our system is contained now. We don’t really pump any in. We use it for our citizens to get them a way to water, and maintain their plants and yards, and it costs less. So we don’t put anything into the streams in that regard. So it’s just a lot of innovation. A lot of innovative things the city has done.
Wilt
Wow. That is just amazing. Well, I would like to know if there’s anything that you would like to discuss or touch on that we haven’t—that I haven’t asked you—that we haven’t gone over. Is there anything special to you that you’d like to convey?
Singleton
Yes. I would. Like I said, I’ve managed Fleet Facilities and Urban Beautification. And you drive down through our city, and you know, in the medians, you see beautiful plants and everything. It’s sad to say, we have people that come through here that don’t live here, and although we trash the main areas daily, because we want everything to look all nice. And even when we have holidays, like September 6th will be Labor Day—it’s a long weekend. Well, somewhere during between that Friday and that Monday, we’ll come down 436, the main areas, and we will trash. We’ll pick up all the trash, so the place will look good, just as though we were working here. So I appreciate things like that.
And even, we had a hard winter. And things froze like you wouldn’t believe. And people would actually call City Hall and told Mr. Pendleton how good things look. And we would laugh, because they didn’t look that good to us. When I say us—Urban. It just looked better, in our opinion. But if you looked around, everything here looked better than everything around us.
But we were still working, because we wanted—we have a set level, a standard that we like—that we were trying to achieve. And I think we’re about there now, but we continue to work. And we’re allowed to do that. And I appreciate that. If you would look at Fleet Maintenance, you look at our vehicles, we have one of the cleanest fleets that’s here. And sometimes, if you have a moment, if you could come out to Fleet Maintenance, I’d just like to you to look at the facility. You don’t see a dirty place. You don’t see junk or anything like that. The building is always clean. Every day, it’s cleaned before they go home. So a lot of times people will come and say, “Do you actually work here?” Well, just because you work on a car or a truck, it doesn’t have to be a filthy, greasy place.
And so we try to maintain that so if, like if any other commissioners like Mr. [Jon] Batman or anyone came out, they’re not worried about getting their clothes dirty or anything, because the shop’s not dirty. That’s a mainstay for us. But if you look at the vehicles going up and down the road, they’re nice and clean, they’re all well-maintained, and so forth. We sent our vehicles to the auction. If you ever have a chance to go, our vehicles sell for a higher price than any other government or municipality around here. Because they’re clean, everything works when they go over there, and they always run. So that’s how we’re able to recoup monies to go back into the general fund, and so we take a great pride in that. And then the facilities, well, you can just tell here. Even in the children’s room, you might think—well, you should see fingerprints on the wall and things like that. We don’t see that, because we maintain the facilities in a way that we will always want it to reflect the highest quality in the City of Altamonte Springs.
Wilt
That is amazing. And I thank you so much for your time. I greatly appreciate everything we talked about. Would you like to give me and Mr. Batman a tour of your museum, of the hall of history, or the children’s room?
Singleton
I’d be delighted to do so.
Wilt
That’d be wonderful. Thank you so much for your time. I greatly appreciate it.
Singleton
You’re welcome.
Thompson
Tell me about where you’re from—where you were raised.
Harkey
Well, I was born in North Carolina—Charlotte—and I’m the youngest of five, and my middle name is Quentin. The reason my mother named me Quentin is because, in Latin, “Quentin” means “the fifth.” That’s how I got my middle name.
My father was a regional sales manager for a big national food company. my mother was a social worker. When I was 15, my father got transferred to Gainesville, Georgia, so we moved there. It’s about 50 miles north of Atlanta[, Georgia]. My first year, I went to Young Harris [College] and then I transferred to the University of Georgia. In fact, the senator from Georgia was a professor there. I got my degree in psychology. and after, I went to Atlanta and walked the streets trying to find a job.
Thompson
Where’d you end up?
Harkey
You get discouraged. And I finally went to one of these personnel agencies, and this guy had a connection with insurance companies, and I ended up getting a job with Great American Insurance [Group] in the Claims Department. I went to work for them as their trainee, and they had a class in New York City[, New York], at their home office at 99 John Street, so I went up for that. There were about 15 of us, and I ended up being number one in the class. They decided to transfer me to Fort Lauderdale. This must have been in the summer of [19]67.
And while I was at the University of Georgia, I met a young lady and got married and she was from [inaudible] Georgia. We moved to Atlanta, and we rented a place on Peace Tree Hills Road. And our real estate agent was Johnny Isaacson, and now he’s the Senator from Georgia. Actually, I was in [Washington,] D.C., and taking a tour of the White House, and I ran into him. And he says I still own that house—the one on Peace Tree Hills.
I moved to Fort Lauderdale and was there for a couple of years. Unfortunately, I got divorced, moved back to Atlanta, and was there for a couple of years, and said, “I want to go back to Florida.” I transferred back to Orlando in ’71, and I’ve been here ever since.
One of the interesting claims I handled was when the tower for [WFTV] Channel 9 collapsed in [inaudible]. I found out that they were going to install a cable for [WMFE-TV] Channel 24, and apparently they took out a cross member at the lower level of the tower. and in doing so, they caused it to collapse. It killed three or four people. I remember taking a statement from a farmer. He was out farming on his tractor and saw the thing come down—sort of telescope down—and it went so far and it fell over like a tree. But you had these [inaudible] wires that had been holding it up, and they were the size of a man’s leg. They were pulled out of the ground and several of the people working out there were pushed into the ground when it hit the building. Channel 9 was off the air for about three days, and then they brought in a temporary tower to get them back up and running. That ended up being a very expensive loss for—I was working for IMA at that time.
Over the years, you have very interesting cases—when I was in Fort Lauderdale. Once this couple was from Michigan, and they had a [inaudible] where they had their horses. And then they were going to build a place in Fort Lauderdale around [inaudible] Mile, and they had rented an apartment while their house was being built, and it was on the second floor of this apartment house. It was around Christmastime, and she had gone to the bank to get her jewels [inaudible] out of the vault. Apparently, these guys were following her. On this particular evening, her 13-year-old son went downstairs and opened the door to get a drink out of the Coke machine. They were watching, so they came in, went upstairs, and said, “We want your furs and diamonds.” They said, “What are you talking about?” And they said, “Don’t give us any lip.” and they started pistol-whipping her with the gun. They said, “Our son’s coming back. please don’t shoot him.” Anyway, she looked like Natalie Wood and he looked like Sebastian Cabot. All we had was a [inaudible] homeowner’s policy. And when I was taking their statements, he had these gold coins from Rome[, Italy] he had converted into cufflinks, and she had a $50,000 diamond ring. And this was back in 1967. and these furs—the most we could pay was $10,000, but I took the statement from the husband outside of the [City of] Fort Lauderdale Police Department in her Rolls-Royce, and she had her initials on the side “SAS.” They hired a bodyguard to protect them and [inaudible] said, “Hey, what’s going on here?” She went in with the bodyguard to look at mug shots while I took the statement from the husband. That made the newspapers.
Thompson
Did they ever find the guy?
Harkey
I don’t remember. It was two or three guys.
I had another case where this couple was from Vancouver[, Canada]. And they’d come down to Fort Lauderdale in the winter, and they had a place right on the Intracoastal. They were about six floors up. and they put in a claim, because their jewels, watches, and wallet had been stolen one night. We came to find out that one of these cat burglars had come across the Intracoastal, and had a grappling hook and pulled himself up to the first balcony. And here you are—if you’re overlooking the Intracoastal, you don’t think about locking your sliding glass door. Basically, what he did was go from one condo[minium] to the next all the way to the top. Apparently, he had some kind of aerosol spray, because when they woke up they felt nauseated. He sprayed something to sedate them so they wouldn’t wake up. All he took was the watches, diamonds, and jewels. And when he got to the top, he left with his gunny sack full of goodies. He had some accomplice waiting for him waiting on the street.
I had a case where this woman had been an actress on Broadway from about 1910 to about 1920 or ’25, and she had been a friend of Fannie [inaudible]. She was telling me the story of how Nicky Bernstein beat her up. And she told me the story about how her husband was a rich furrier[?] in New York City. And when the [Wall Street] Crash [of 1929] happened, he had such a loss that he went to commit suicide. He tried to do that in New York City, and he jumped off the building. And I forgot how many stories she said it was, but he hit the canvas canopy and slid off. And the doorman went to help him, and he said, “No. don’t help me.” It didn’t kill him. And she said he went to Chicago[, Illinois] and found a taller building and did himself in.
Thompson
I shouldn’t be laughing, but you’d think he would realize that God had a different plan for him when he jumped off a building and didn’t die.
Tell me—I want to hear stories about you when you were young. Stories about Central Florida and what you remember of how things have changed.
Harkey
Well, I moved here March 25th, 1971. And I can remember going to the grand opening of [Walt] Disney World in October of ‘71. I can remember I was standing there, and they had all the dignitaries walking towards the Magic Kingdom [Park], and here comes Claude [Roy] Kurt[, Jr.], the Governor [of Florida]. And these women that I was standing next to said, “That’s Kirk Douglas.” Another one called him another famous actor, but it was Claude Kurt. So I thought that was interesting that these women thought he was Kirk Douglas. He was a women’s man. He was a lady-killer. He was on his second or third wife when he became governor. Remember, he married this woman[1] from Argentina[2] that was quite a looker.
When I lived in Fort Lauderdale, I dated this girl that was from Palm Beach. And she was a schoolteacher. And they were more like ordinary people—not rich or anything. She invited me up one weekend to go to a wedding, and they had the wedding on the other side of the canal in West Palm [Beach] and then they went to this place called “The Sail Club” on the north end of Palm Beach. And they just had food and booze flowing, and I can remember the couple. They went through the regular routines of a wedding reception afterwards, and they walked off onto the dock. And I guess they got into their parent’s cabin cruise, and sailed off into the sunset. And I said, “Now, that’ the way to get married, and have that type of reception, and then cruise off into the sunset on your honeymoon.” That impressed me.
I got involved in Young Republicans [YR] when I came here. This was in 1973. This was where I met my wife-to-be, Cheryl [Harkey]. And I met John [L.]Mica, Rich[ard T.] Crotty, [Antoinette] “Toni” Jennings, Jeanie Austin—who’s now dead and gone, but she was a real leader in the Republican Party. Her history was fascinating. She was from Oklahoma, got married when she was 14, had her first kid when she was 16. When I met her, she was in her late-thirties and was running for president of the YRs. I was running for treasurer that year, so there was a slate of us running for office that year. I became the treasurer, she became the president, and she was working as a secretary at Western Electric [Company]. She ended up working her way up to being the chairman of the Republican Party of Florida, and she ended up raising more money than any other state chairman. Then when George [Herbert Walker] Bush became president, [Harvey LeRoy] “Lee” Atwater was the chairman of the Republican National Committee [RNC]. She ended up becoming co-chair of the RNC, so considering her start, she really had a successful…
In fact, our club was voted the number one club in the country, and we became the biggest club in Florida. I can remember we had a casino night, and a couple of guys—years before that—had made up this casino equipment. And we raised—we had a budget of $14,000 in 1973 for our club—and we raised about $3,000 on casino night. From there, I became a claims adjuster and had interesting claims, like the ones I’ve mentioned before.
Thompson
When did you all get married?
Harkey
In a fever. We met in April and got married in December. so it was love and heat at first sight—love and passion. Then we had our daughter. She already had a little boy from her previous marriage—Greg. Then Marianne [Harkey] was born in February 11, 1978, so we brought her home on Valentine’s Day. I thought that was appropriate. Valentine’s Day for a little girl.
Over the years—I was with Great American for six years. Then I went to work for IMA for a while. And then I went to work for an insurance company for [inaudible], and I ended up with CNA [Financial Corporation]. And in ’92, when Mica ran or office—he had been state rep[resentative] in ’76, and I was his campaign coordinator. And he was up there for four years—’76 to ’80—and then in ’80 a guy by the name of [William D.] “Bill” Gorman, who had been a state senator for Orange County, decided he wasn’t going to run again, because Ken [inaudible], who was the Clerk of the Court, decided he wasn’t going to run again. so that left open that state senate position, so Mica ran on that against Toni Jennings, so of course, Toni Jennings won by about 500 votes. He was quite successful and had a very illustrious career.
A little side note is that about three years ago, I went to the Orlando [Regional] Realtor Association. They give out an annual award recognizing a person in public service, and they named the award the Toni Jennings Public Service Award. So they invited Mica, and he wasn’t able to come. so I went to receive his award, and I said, “Let me tell you the rest of the story. Mica and Toni Jennings ran against each other years ago, and now it’s kind of ironic that he’s receiving the Toni Jennings Award for Public Service.”
Thompson
But I want to hear personal stories too. I think you started a good one with—you got married in a fever. That’s like the old song. Where’d you get married?
Harkey
We got married—oh, let me tell you another story. In YRs—in the Young Republicans—when I met her and John Mica and all the others, we were meeting at the Maitland Civic Center. We had this thing called the “Order of the Elbow.” and the “Order of the Elbow” was—drink. What we would do is, we would meet once a month and set up a little card table, and usually we’d have someone sitting there selling the tickets. Well, Peggy Spagler was selling the tickets that night, and we got raided by the ATF [Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives]. And they accused us of selling liquor unlawfully, because you’d buy a ticket, go over to the bar, and get your drink. We thought we were legal. we found out we weren’t. Anyway, they arrested her since she was the one selling the drinks. They didn’t arrest the guys pouring the drinks. she was the one who was taking in the money. They arrested her and took her to jail, and we finally bailed her out about five o’clock in the morning. We ended up having a trial. Lawson Lamar was a young prosecuting attorney at the time. John King was a young judge and then Terry Griffin—he was an attorney in the YRs, so he was the defense attorney. One of the people that was in the YRs at the time was Scott Vandergrift[?], who was the Mayor for Ocoee for years. So we all went in and we testified. and after that, Terry moved or a directed verdict and he told Lawson Lamar, “You know what? You’re barking up the wrong tree.” [Robert] “Bob
Egan was the state attorney at that time, and when he heard he had lost that little case, he razzed Lawson Lamar., and one time, I saw Lawson years after that night and kidded him about it and he said, “Yeah. Bob Egan razzed me about losing that case.”
Thompson
So you were saying that that’s where you met your wife and then you got married. Now, did Cheryl work?
Harkey
Yeah. She was a schoolteacher. When I met her, she was teaching. I said I always wanted to marry a schoolteacher. I just thought they were the greatest. She was my dream come true. We have two granddaughters. Kelsey’s 15. Morgan’s 11.
And then Cheryl’s parents live here in town. He’s a World War II veteran—got a Bronze Star [Medal] and in the Italian Campaign. And they’ve been married for 68 years this November—quite a few years. Her father’s been having problems. He had a near-death experience about a year and a half ago. He had colon cancer, so they did the surgery. He just about didn’t make it. We thought he was going to die a couple of times. He’s managed to keep getting stronger and stronger. He’s an amazing character. He’s from “The Greatest Generation.” They’re tough. So Cheryl’s over there helping her mother take care of him and she needs assistance.
Thompson
What’s the biggest change you’ve seen since living here since ’71? It’s been 40 years.
Harkey
The overall growth of the area and the population is not going to stop growing. The SunRail, to me, is going to be a great connector for our community. I was talking with—who heads up the [Central Florida] Zoo [and Botanical Gardens]?
Thompson
Joe Montesano[?].
Harkey
He’s looking forward to where these school kids can hop on the commuter rail and visit the zoo. And people hopping on it to go to a [Orlando] Magic game, and the other thing is that the new Lake Nona [Medical City] that’s being built there on Lake Nona. The Veterans [Affairs] hospital there will be opening next fall, and they’re anticipating a million visitors a year to that facility. Assuming the Governor[3] makes the right decision tomorrow.
Once we get in that initial footprint for SunRail, there’s a spur that goes over to the [inaudible] OUC [Orlando Utilities Commission] utility plant right there in Taft. It goes around to the underbelly of the [Orlando-International] Airport, and then it goes over to the—well, if you look at [Florida State Road] 417 and where the new Medical City is—on the north side of 417—right in that area is the tracks. And half a mile away is the new Medical City. The beauty of it is that Orlando has a hundred foot [inaudible]. You know, you see almost the tracks. Now these coal[?] trains[?] are a 100-125 cars long, so they’re quite lengthy. And they have four coal[?] trains[?] a week that come here, so all they’ll have to do is do enough double tracking do they can pass. Eventually, they may get them out of here, but I’m not sure when that’s going to happen. but that’s the beauty. Once we get this thing up, then all these veterans will be able to hop on that commuter rail and—phase one is the one we’re looking at right now. that would just be 31 miles from [inaudible] to Sand Lake Road. We get that in, and it looks like it’s going to be the spring of 2014. They’ll be able to take a bus to the new VA [Veterans Affairs] facility, but eventually it’ll be where they can take a train.
Thompson
Well, the train will stop in Sanford, right?
Harkey
Yeah. We’re going to have four stops in Seminole County: Sanford, Lake Mary, Longwood, and Altamonte [Springs]. We’ll all have our own station.
Thompson
And it’ll be right at the same place where…
Harkey
Well, the Sanford station is actually going to be on the north side of [Florida State Road] 46, right where [West] Airport Boulevard comes into 46. So it’s not going to be at the auto train location and it’s not going to be where the old station used to be. That’s been torn down—the old Amtrak station.
Thompson
So Airport and 46—that’s right there before you go over the…
Harkey
It’s just a little east of where [the] Wayne Densch [Performing Arts Center] is. That’s where the station’s going to be. In fact, I think there’s some electrical transformers close to that area. I was talking with Mark McCarty, the new [Sanford] City Commissioner…
Thompson
He’s a real friend of Creative Sanford[, Inc.] and Celery Soup. He built our snowman.
Harkey
In fact, I saw him last week. And they had the groundbreaking for the new performing arts center[4] in Orlando, and he’s talking about putting together a trolley from Downtown Sanford to go over to the new station once that’s built.
Thompson
Well, we have a shuttle that comes from Amtrak, and it comes right here beside the [Sanford] Welcome Center. And people bring their suitcases in, and leave them here, and then they can spend the day.
Harkey
Oh, so they were currently doing it—these are the British tourists that come in here?
Thompson
Well, no. it’s whoever comes in on Amtrak—usually Americans. They bring whatever their baggage is off the train.
Harkey
Oh, so you already have a little shuttle service. I didn’t realize that. That’s the excitement of the commuter rail. In fact—this was about two weeks ago—the Congressman met with people from northwest Orange County and Lake County, because there’s the Florida Central Railroad that goes from Downtown Orlando—you know where the Bob Carr [Performing Arts Centre] is? Behind the Sheraton [Orlando Downtown] Hotel are some tracks, and those tracks come right into the CSX [Transportation] tracks and they go out over to [Florida State Road] 441 and sort of parallel go up through Lockhart, through Apopka, up towards Mount Dora, Tavares, Eustis. So those tracks are there, and they’re looking forward to creating their own Orange Blossom Express.
We had a nice meeting about two or three weeks ago where the Congressman brought down the chairman of the board for this company called US Railcar, and they used to be called Colorado Railcar. and those were the vehicles we were going to get for our railroad, but they went bankrupt. Well, a company out of Columbus, Ohio, called US Rail purchased them, so now they’re still making the same vehicles out of Columbus. So the people over on the Florida Central would be looking at using those vehicles to provide that commuter rail service and they say eventually the people from The Villages could come over.
They would go as far north as Eustis and Tavares on this proposed commuter rail service they’re talking about. Eventually, we can have service going over to the airport, and to the new Medical City, and Apopka, and Tavares, and Mount Dora—in that area. This SunRail system—once it gets going, it’ll just keep migrating out and it’ll provide our community with opportunity. Florida Hospital is planning on having a “health village.” They’ve got 80 acres down, and it would be where people would live there, and they’d have a complex where they’d have offices, shops, dry cleaners, restaurants, etc.
Thompson
For the families of people who are living in the hospital?
Harkey
No. It’ll be for the workers there. They’ve got 17,000 employees. I think Lars Holman[?], who’s the CEO of Florida Hospital, said the [Florida Hospital] Health Village is going to cost about $250 million. They’re planning of doing a development in that blank area between the courthouse and LYNX [Rapid Transit Services]. It’s just vacant. It’s going to be developed into quite a complex, so there’s a lot of economic development coming with this SunRail.
I’ve been approached by people from outside—from the Northeast saying, “When this happens, here’s what we want to do.” The other ripple effect of the SunRail is the $432 million that Florida is paying CSX. they’re reinvesting it all back into Florida. They’re putting $40 million into upgrading the Jackson Port and the S Line, which runs down the center of the state. They’re upgrading that. And then they have this [Winter Haven] Integrated Logistics Center [ILC] in Winter Haven that they’ll be building, and when it’s fully developed it’ll employ about 8,000 people.
The other thing is that the Panama Canal is being expanded and will be completed so they can have these super cargo ships come through. CSX has a line that goes over close to the Port of Manatee that they can extend to dockside, and that would become a major harbor for exporting and importing in the IOC. And Winter Haven will become a major distribution hub, not only in Florida, but for the entire east coast. It’ll take the big truck traffic off of [Interstate Highway] 95 and [Interstate Highway] 75 because of this. This is the ripple effect of how that money is been reinvested by CSX into the state to create more jobs. So the naysayers aren’t really doing their homework. they’re just looking at the cost and saying, “We can’t afford it.” Hopefully, the governor will make the right decision there.
This would have been in 1955, and one of my older sisters was going to Appalachian College in Boone, North Carolina, and she met this football player and they married. They’re celebrating their 50th wedding anniversary several years ago. He was from Hollywood, Florida, so we decided to go down to Hollywood, Florida, for vacation that summer. This was in 1955, before we had the interstate. Gosh, we started out, and we were going into South Georgia. All of us were in the car, except my oldest sister. she was already married so she didn’t go on the vacation with us.
Thompson
So it was your mom and dad and four kids?
Harkey
My father was, like I said, the regional sales manager, so he was actually in Miami working. so it was five of us driving down in the car. We got as far south as Folkston, Georgia. And my brother was driving, and I remember it was raining, and he was going too fast, and there was this car up ahead. I remember it was a 1952 Ford, and there was an African-American couple in there that had stopped, because a herd of sheep had gone across the road. and he misjudged his speed and we ran into the rear of them. Luckily, it wasn’t a bad crash, but it did bend in our right front fender, so we did have to go to a shop and have that pulled back out. But otherwise, we kept moving. We spent the first night in Jacksonville, and then we got down to Fort Pierce. My oldest brother and older sister were taking turns driving, so they got into Fort Pierce. And we had a ’53 Buick at the time—straight [inaudible]. And we came up to a traffic light and my mother decided to change drivers. So as they’re rolling over each other, my mother forgot to put it in park, and one of them put their foot on the gas. we shot out into the middle and there came a ’51 black Buick and we broadsided it. That stopped us, and, of course, Beverly [Harkey] got the ticket.
We called up my future brother-in-law’s parents and told them what happened. Well, he had an old ’49 [inaudible]. Well, he got in the car and came to pick us up. And I didn’t think he was going to ever get there, and I didn’t think we’d ever get back to Hollywood. but we were there for the week and my father spent his time going up to Fort Pierce checking on the car. Luckily, they got it fixed within the week. He had had to go up to Fort Pierce to get it down to Hollywood, so we could drive it back home. On the way home, we didn’t stop and we didn’t go back U.S. [Route] 1. We took [U.S. Route] 27—right through the center of the state.
We actually stopped in Orlando. And we had a big discussion, because one of my mother’s aunts lived in Williston, and she wanted to go over and see her and it was mutiny. “No, no., we’re not going over to see Aunt May. We’re going home.” Finally, she said, “Okay.” We were in Orlando probably around Park Lake or someplace like that, when we pulled over to have our mutiny, and the mutineers won. I thought I wasn’t going to live to make it home. Until I started driving—this was 1955, so I would have been 13 at the time—I was afraid to go anywhere, because I didn’t think I would make it back alive.
In ’57, when we moved from Charlotte to Gainesville—we moved in the summer—and my brother was going to be in 12th grade. He didn’t really want to move, because it was going to be his last year in high school. Since it was going to be his senior year, he was thinking of living with somebody, rather than moving to Gainesville. That Christmas, he and my oldest brother went back to Charlotte for Christmas parties. My oldest brother had been out to California with some friends, and they had worked out there, and just gotten back. And this one guy, who was a friend of my oldest brother,[5] had too much to drink. So this guy at the [inaudible] said, “I’ll take him home.” but he didn’t realize we had moved and my older brother didn’t think about it. The house we had over there on Kingston [Avenue]—the people we had sold it to—they had taken in these boarders. so when—and back then, you didn’t lock your door/ so he just went in through the front door, went upstairs, and put him in bed. The next day, he woke up and saw this guy on this other bed across the room and he said, “This looks familiar. Where am I?”
The guy said, “You’re at 715 East Kingston Avenue.” He said, “Oh my God.” He got up and ran out front door. He was so embarrassed.
Thompson
And he never told him who he was?
Harkey
I think the lady we sold the house to was laughing, because it was so funny.
Thompson
It sounds like you had some wild brothers. Now, how many boys and how many girls?
Harkey
Three boys and two girls. It was girl, girl, boy, boy, boy. I was the youngest. Robbie became an attorney. He went Emory [University] undergrad and Emory Law School. And he was with Delta Air lines, Inc. for 35 years and was very successful, and lives in a very big, expensive house out there in Atlanta.
My other brother was a lobbyist, and he lives on the [inaudible] outside of Charleston[, South Carolina] and he had a scare when Hurricane Hugo hit there. His house, luckily, was spared, but he’s only about a block away from the ocean there.
One of my sisters stayed in Charlotte—the oldest. When they put through I[nterstate Highway] 85 years ago, she married one of five brothers. And when the parents died, the farm was divided up, and I-85 went right through the farm. She has 23 acres on the northwest quadrant of Mallard Church Creek Road and I-85, which is not that far from NASCAR [,National Association for Stock Car Auto Racing]. so she’s sitting on a gold mine and she has four kids.
Thompson
And it hasn’t been developed?
Harkey
It’s coming out that way. It just keeps growing that way. My other sister lives out in Helen, Georgia, which is about 75 miles north, and they have an Oktoberfest up there. What they did is they turned Helen into a Bavarian village. Years ago, these businessmen from Gainesville, Georgia, were in Bavaria[, Germany], and they came up with an idea and said, “Let’s go back to Helen and ask all the owners if they’ll convert their storefronts into a Bavarian type of…” So they all agreed and it’s now a resort. They have tubing there and we went up there in [20]07 for my sister and her husband’s 50th wedding anniversary.
Thompson
Did you have any stories around racial lines? Around integration? Anything like that?
Harkey
Well, I can say that when we were growing up, we had maids in the house. In fact, Geneva was part of the family, and my mother paid her $7 a week. She would come over and cook breakfast, lunch, and dinner. She was a great maid that we had. My parents were always very accepting. They weren’t bigoted types. My mother, like I said, was a social worker for 40 years.
Thompson
I was talking to somebody about the book titled The Help. and the people in the book say that the employers wouldn’t allow their black help to use their bathrooms. I never heard that before.
Harkey
No. When I was growing up, I knew that either you were black or white. Water fountains were segregated.
Thompson
But in your home when she worked for you, she used your bathroom?
Harkey
Of course.
Thompson
You see, I had never heard that either, because our Ovella was like a second mother to us. We had an amazing story. I’m down here in Florida, and she lives up in Knoxville[, Tennessee]. And I hadn’t seen her in a year or two, but for some reason, I just started thinking about her and thinking about her. and I said, “I’ve got to send her some money.” I talked to my husband and I said, “I’ve been having these dreams about Ovella and I want to give her some money.” He said, “Well, how much money?” I said, “I want to give her $5,000.” I had never given her more than $100 at any other time. Maybe at Christmas, if I was up there, I’d give her $50 or $100. I didn’t call her or say, “Money’s coming.” I just wrote her a little note telling her that I loved her and put in a check. and she called me and she said they had been praying for a new roof on their house. That was what they used the $5,000 for.
My point is that somebody—not your family, not your close relative—you’ve got such a close connection that their prayers came to me for some reason. Luckily, we had the money and we could spare it. I had never heard of this and a bunch of us are going to go watch The Help when it comes out.
Gino had said they had hired a lady and she kept going out to the garage or someplace. And he said, “Why are you doing that?” And they said, “Well, we can’t use the bathroom in the house.” He said, “What do you mean you can’t use the bathroom in the house? Of course you can use the bathroom in the house.” That must have been a common thing—maybe Deep South, because I had never heard of it living in Tennessee.
Harkey
Well, my final story will be when I got burned as a kid. I was eight years old. It was in May of 1950. And the Retans lived down the street from us, and we had this thing of cleaning our bicycles—you know, the sprockets—how to get them oily. We had decided to clean all of our bicycles. Take the rear wheel off, take the sprockets off, and clean them with gasoline, put them back together. We had these little Maxwell House coffee cans, so we did it and cleaned them off. We were eating supper, and then Robbie and I went back down to the Retans’, and somebody left a book of matches on the back steps. So, for whatever reason, I went over, opened the matches and struck it, and then I just tossed it without noticing where I tossed it. Then I turned around and walked over and was looking down into the [inaudible] when it exploded. It was like a cannon, and this gasoline shot out my left leg, and caught me on fire, and I started screaming. Luckily, we had a hose that was set up with the pistol grip, and so my brother—he told me to roll and he put it out.
I was in the hospital for three months and I underwent eight skin graft surgeries. Initially, it was just my baby doctor who was treating me. They had just put this gook on me. My mother said, “This is not going to work. Something’s got to be done.” The doctor apparently thought she could handle it, but my mother went to the nurses and said, “You know, you need a specialist.” so they brought in Dr. Jacobs. He was a World War II doctor and had seen a lot of war injuries. and so he’s the one who did the skin graft surgeries on me.
Thompson
With all those parts, I was afraid you were going to tell that, when it exploded, the parts were like shrapnel coming out of there. They could have injured you too.
Harkey
It was the gasoline that blew up, not the parts themselves. And luckily, it was below the knee. They said if it had been over the knee, it would have probably crippled me. It was third-degree burns. That was the traumatic event of my life. It changed me a little bit.
Thompson
Well, what made you afraid of driving until you started driving? Were they just such wild drivers?
Harkey
I just wasn’t in control and I didn’t trust anybody. Once I started driving, I didn’t have that fear, because I started driving.
Wait, there’s one more story I’ve got. This was at the [inaudible] Methodist Church there in Charlotte. And we were about a block away from the church and me and Hugh Walker—he was the youngest of five—he just had one brother and three sisters. We hung out and we were in the [Boy] Scouts [of America] together. The church usually had Wednesday night supper, and they had these big five gallon size peaches that they would use and throw the cans out back. Well, we saw those and said, “Those would make great tom-toms.” so we started beating them. And we went over to where the choir director had his teenage group practicing, and we were outside beating on those things. My mother and both of my oldest sisters were in the choir, so he knew them real well. When he heard us beating on those things, he came out chasing us. Well, we ran out to the back of the church, around to the north side of the church, between the pastor’s [inaudible], around the front of the church. He was closing in on us, but he had on these wing-tipped leather bottom shoes. and then we got to this area of the sidewalk where it had a thin layer of sand. As soon as he stepped on that sand with those wing-tipped leather shoes, his feet came out from under him and he just busted his rear end. My friend Hugh Walker—I call him “Wookah.” I said, “Wookah, should we go back and help him?” He said, “Hell no.” My mother said he never mentioned it to her, but he was probably so embarrassed that he busted his rear end.
Motta
This is Daniel Motta.I am interviewing Mr. Bob Hattaway at his business, Adult Toy Storage, in Altamonte Springs.To start, Mr. Hattaway, could you tell me where you were born?
Hattaway
I was born in the city of Altamonte Springs in 1936, which today, the location is on Lake Orienta, which at one time was called Orienta Ferneries, later in years.And the Hattaway family lived on that property for a number of years, probably 30 years, or something.
Motta
So you were born on the property?
Hattaway
I was born on the property, yeah.At that time, when I was born, 1936, a lot of people did not go to hospitals.They couldn’t afford it.So I was born at home.
Motta
And could you tell me a little about the neighborhood, the house, property?
Hattaway
The property, basically—it was 150 acres of property.Thirty acres of the property was into a fernery slat shed growing tropical foliage and plants, mostly asparagus plumosus fern, and then another fern called leatherleaf fern, which came on in a later date, which became very popular in the flower industry.But we were growing plants and flowers and a lot of different products back at that time, to sell.So it was a very rural area.Altamonte Springs had one road leading in and one road leading out, and it was Highway 436 [Florida State Road 436].If you wanted to go shopping, you would get on 436 and travel [US Route] 17-92 to Downtown Orlando, because there were no stores in Altamonte Springs, or Casselberry.You had to go to Orlando to shop.
Motta
And I imagine 436 looked a lot different then.
Hattaway
Yeah, 436 was probably a two-lane road, and going through the middle of Altamonte Springs was a four-lane road divided in the middle by two very large rows of oak trees, from about where the Altamonte Mall is today, all the way to the railroad track in Altamonte Springs.That’s going from west to the east.
Motta
Were any of these paved roads?
Hattaway
It was paved, yeah.Sometimes.But Maitland Avenue also was there, which was a two-lane road itself.But very rural.I mean, there was really nothing out here.
Motta
And you said, on the property, only part of it was ferns?
Hattaway
Yeah.Of the hundred acres, a lot of it, 30-something acres of it was slat shed fern itself, and the other was open fields, and we were growing plumosus or podocarpus, and were using that.We’d grow the podocarpus and cut that as cuttings and ship that to the northern market, to flower shops as well.So, and everything at that time, back when the fern business back in the [19]50s, and [19]60s, most of the freight was moved by rail, and not by truck.So there was a big depot in Altamonte Springs, and the depot itself, the major portion of it, was people like us—Hattaways, Casselberrys, Vaughns, etc.—shipping boxes and boxes and boxes of cut fern to the northern market, to flower shops.
Motta
And that would all take place here, or would it go to Sanford first, and go from there?
Hattaway
No.
Motta
Just directly?
Hattaway
There was a direct stop in Altamonte Springs and a direct stop in Casselberry, and also a direct stop in Longwood and Maitland.So they were little whistle stops, but most of the time they were stopping to pick up a product, like the fern product, and then some passengers.But there were no 7-Elevens, and there was absolutely nothing out here at that particular point in time.Not any tourists as well.
Motta
About how many families lived in this area, you think?
Hattaway
Well, you know, on the Orienta Fernery side, which was known as the Royal Ferneries at one time, there were probably—it was a housing development there, row houses for the migrant workers, or the workers, to live on the premise and work there, and [inaudible] 40-something houses with a church, [inaudible] on Hattaway Drive today, this long, long, long, then gone?.But they provided housing for people, and they were not great to live in and to be able to work.
Motta
And did your father build the houses and the church?
Hattaway
No, those were built back in the—golly.My father went in, they bought from Hibbard Casselberry, 1951.They bought what at that time they called the Royal Ferneries, and they bought that from Hibbard, and Hibbard bought it, I think, in 1946—‘45.And then my father worked for Mr. Casselberry, and my grandfather worked for Mr. Casselberry, and my two uncles, also, worked for Mr. Casselberry. All of them in stooped labor, cutting ferns by hand and taking it to the packinghouses, and then being able to ship the product to the northern market.And there were no Kmarts, and there were no big Walmarts, and those kind of things.Flower shops were flourishing.That was the mainstay of the fern business at that time, corsages and bouquets and things of that nature.
Motta
So what year did you say your father procured the property?
Hattaway
He bought the property from Hibbard in 1951.
Motta
Okay. So, when you were born, he was working in the industry?He just didn’t…
Hattaway
He was working with Mr. Casselberry.Yeah.
Motta
Okay. And what were your experiences like as a child? Did you also have any contact with—did you work in fields at all?
Hattaway
Yes, yes.Oh, yeah[laughs]. Those were wonderful moments.[laughs]
Motta
Could you tell me a little about them?
Hattaway
Out there with stooped labor, working in the—I would work in the summer months when I was out of school, high school and grammar school.I would pull weeds in the fernery.And they would hire a lot of young people like myself at that time—ten, twelve years old.And our job was—the fernery was full of weeds of various kinds, and so we’d line up ten, fifteen, or twenty of us in rows.We’d go down through and pull the weeds out of each row.That was a terrible job.I knew when that was happening I didn’t want to stay in the nursery business, or fern business.I darn sure didn’t want to be a stooped laborer in the field.But that’s where my family came from.I mean, they worked for every Casselberry.And Hibbard brought my grandfather and my father both out of the fernery, out of the field, and put my grandfather in charge of the fernery over[?]—which was the Royal Fernery at that time, Casselberry Ferneries as well—and put my grandfather in charge of that side of the fernery, and then my father went over to the main plant over in the middle of Casselberry, and he became the main foreman over there, in an office, working for Mr. Casselberry.And so Mr. Casselberry brought him out of the field, very little education, and put him in charge of a number of people.At that time, you know, back in the ‘40s and ‘50s, the fern business, it was a big business, and they were employing probably two, three hundred people.So it was a lot of people depending on the Casselberrys and the Foleys[?] in the fern business at that time as well.
Motta
So when you were in the fields doing that work that you loved so much, were you paid for that, or was that just something expected of you?
Hattaway
Oh, yeah.Yeah, we got paid for it.
Motta
Do you remember…
Hattaway
Twenty-five cent an hour.And I was, you know—I’ve always loved to work.That’s been my mainstay, and I’ve got great work habits.And I think most people back then did.I’m not sure what they have today.I know it’s not as good as it was back then.But Mr. Casselberry provided a lot of employment for young people when school was out, that they could work during the summer.And pulling those weeds was part of what you did.And I would get out, and we’d help with the repair of the slat sheds, repairing the irrigation systems, just to keep the fernery back in good repair, so we could grow the fern itself.But it’s hard work.
Motta
I’d imagine.
Hattaway
But, you know, I did that every summer.When I got out of school, the following week I’d be working in the field.
Motta
Could you tell me a little about where you went to school?Did you—high school, or did you go to college after?
Hattaway
Sure.I went to Lyman High School, grades one through twelve.I went to Winter Park High School the 10th grade to the 11th grade, and then came back to Lyman for the 12th grade itself.So I was actually grade one through ten at Lyman High School, the old school.
Motta
It wasn’t called Lyman High School then?
Hattaway
It was called Lyman High School, yeah.
Motta
But it was one through twelve?
Hattaway One through twelve, yeah.There were, when I graduated, in 1954—’55 there were twelve boys and one girl in my class.Thirteen class.And the class behind us, I think, had 25.So it was a very small school back then, and grade one was, you know—all the way through.And I think they stopped that just before—no, it was still going on in 1955.It was still grade one through twelve, I think, at that time.But Lyman today is probably graduating one thousand kids at one whack.And you got Oviedo, and etc., etc.Great changes, but, you know, we had small classes.Probably the max in a class was 20, 25.Teachers were very personal.Teachers knew us all, and it turned out, had a good education.When I graduated from Lyman, I think there was only two people in our class went to college, and the rest of us went into the work field.And I immediately, when I graduated, I started buying real estate, starting my own fernery.
Motta
Graduated from high school?
Hattaway
Yeah, high school.I didn’t go to college. Didn’t go to college.And I was working—I got a job in Winter Garden with Continental Can Company, and they were making small cans to put orange juice into, frozen orange juice, and that was a—you’d put three cups of water with it…
Motta
The concentrate?
Hattaway
Concentrate, and do all those.I worked there at night, the night shift from 3:30 ‘til 12:00 or something of that nature.And then during the day, I bought a piece of property in Oviedo on Chapman Avenue[sic], and built my first nursery under oak trees.And I started my own business back in 1956—I guess ’57, ’58, something like that.
Motta
Where did you say the canning company was?
Hattaway
Continental Can Company.
Motta
Where was that?
Hattaway
In Winter Garden.
Motta
Oh, okay.So those…
Hattaway
It was a big canning company.
Motta
Pretty far from each other, the two?
Hattaway
I’m sorry?
Motta
The two jobs you had were pretty far from each other.
Hattaway
Yeah.Yeah.One was working in the can company, the other was working in the field, in a nursery.And started my own place.I bought an oak tree hammock.And we’d found by that time, in the nursery business, in the fern business, that slat sheds were very expensive, and you couldn’t keep them up because of cost, wood rot, and it became—they were falling down.So, we started…
Motta
How often do you have to replace those?
Hattaway
Oh, you were constantly working on the building, on the fields themselves, and you’re talking about 30 acres of slat shed.Just slats are, you know, four inches wide.And sometimes they would kind of fall down.If you’re tall like I am, you’d run into a slat and hit your head and etc.So we went from the slat sheds into buying oak tree hammocks, and putting fern under the oak tree hammocks.And we also started planting in the ferneries—the old ferneries, oak trees inside of the fernery itself—to grow up through the slat sheds for shade.You were looking for a certain amount of shade.And so we started that, and that’s where the slat sheds kind of disappeared, and everybody, especially Mr. Casselberry, his whole side was nothing but oak trees.
Motta
Oh, really?
Hattaway
The side we had, and my father and grandfather had, over on Orienta Fernery side, they planted orange trees, which was a really, really smart move, because they always had orange trees—they also had the product of fern under that.The problem was, when they planted the orange trees, they budded the orange tree to Valencia, navels, or whatever it’s going to be.When they sprayed the orange tree spray on the fern, to kill worms, etc., it killed the buds on all the orange trees.Ended up with 25 acres of sour orange trees, and there’s not a lot of market for sour orange trees.So it was just a good concept, but it didn’t work.
Motta
So, by that time, there was pretty much the natural solution of replacing the slats with the trees?Like, is that what all the fern owners pretty much moved to?
Hattaway
Yeah.Yeah.Everybody was doing that.Everybody was doing that.
Motta
Okay.
Hattaway
Fern business was big not only here in Central Florida, in the Orlando area, Altamonte Springs, Casselberry, Fern Park, but it was big up in Crescent City and Pierson, which it still is today.
Motta
Yeah.
Hattaway
It’s the mainstay up there as well.
Motta
Was there any kind of rivalry between, like, here and Volusia County?
Hattaway
Oh, yeah.Oh my god.Yeah.Yeah.They would—and I’ve heard my father talk about the stories that the price of the ferns had become very cheap—and so the industry got together and met someplace up in DeLand or something, some little community, with the main growers all meeting at one concept.
Woman
Excuse me, do you need anything before I go to lunch?
Hattaway
No, I’m good.
Unidentified
Okay.
Hattaway
I’m good.They all went back to discuss the pricing, and I guess they were trying to do what you’d call the price fixing.But the typical agriculture business, they all got together, they all decided, shook hands, and this is what we’re gonna charge to the fern.All of them couldn’t wait to run back to the phone and call their customers in Chicago[, Illinois] or New York or where it is, and say, “Hattaway’s going up on the price of his fern by three cent.I’m gonna stay the same price” or “I’m gonna drop the price.”It never worked.And so they cut their throat time and time again.But there was great rivalry, especially, that I’m familiar with, between the Barnetts, the Casselberrys, the Vaughns.And there was a rivalry there because Mr. Casselberry started the tax-free town of Casselberry, and the Barnetts were a big, very wealthy family, had a lot of ferneries in the Fern Park, Casselberry area, and they didn’t like Mr. Casselberry, because he was so aggressive, and he was a new guy in town.And they got into a hell of a rivalry.So it was always a shootout.
Motta
And the Vaughns, you said?
Hattaway
Vaughns.
Motta
They were also in Seminole County already.
Hattaway
That’s right.Yeah.They were up in Casselberry—which you would never say “Casselberry,” you would say “Fern Park”—which today is the location of the Home Depot.
Motta
Near Lake Concord?
Hattaway
On 17-92 and Concord.That area.So yeah, there was a real rivalry going on between the small families with the Casselberrys.And those three, those were the three players.So.
Motta
And this was like the ‘50s, early ‘60s?
Hattaway
Yeah, ‘40s and ‘50s.
Motta
So when did the fern industry kind of start slowing down, in the area?
Hattaway
Oh, god.My father—I read this this morning—and it had so many ups and downs that I wasn’t even aware of—when I read his notes.And the, you know, just the price of fuel became so high, and labor became so expensive, that we really saw it when my father bought the place in 1951 from Hibbard, like 130 acres, Orienta Ferneries.He, within five years, was subdividing the fernery.And he became involved in real estate, which was a really smart move.
Motta
And these, the plots, were they designed for the houses and also, like, partially for ferns?Like, if somebody wanted to grow, like, a little on the side…
Hattaway
No. That was way before that ever happened.
Motta
Oh, okay.
Hattaway
That was a lot of little nurseries that were back in the ‘20s and ‘30s.
Motta
So this was purely real estate?
Hattaway
Yeah. purely real estate.Yeah.He started taking the fernery, which had a hundred and some odd acres, and started selling the land off itself to people that wanted to move.By this time, Altamonte Springs and Casselberry and the community started growing, and so people were starting to migrate, if you want to say that, from Orlando out into the country.And we were selling real estate lots on Lake Orienta—that was a fernery—and we took some of the slat sheds down and were selling real estate lots 100 feet wide, anywhere from 250 to 300 feet deep, for $2,000, for a lot, on paved road.
Motta
Around what year was this?
Hattaway
In the ‘50s—’58, somewhere along there, ’57, ’58.That area where Hattaway Drive is today, that drive that was all Orienta Ferneries, all the property that my father bought from Mr. Casselberry.But he went in like Hibbard.Hibbard went into the real estate business big time.He had a lot of land.And he saw the handwriting on the wall itself.The fern business was just not thriving.There was—and, a lot of artificial stuff coming down the line.People were using podocarpus.People were using [?], using a lot of fillers instead of using the fern.It was cheaper to buy a filler and put inside, in that corsage, for the price.
Motta
Oh.I was about to ask what were some of the reasons it kind of went down.That was pretty much just the artificial—were other parts of the country…
Hattaway
It wasn’t artificial, then.It was just shrubs and things they were cutting that they could stick into a bouquet of flowers.Bouquet of flowers won’t last, you know, a week, four or five days.So they could take sphagnum moss, or they could take a ligustrum, or something that’s leafy and green, and put it in a corsage at a cheaper rate than they could a sprig of fern, or a sprig of leatherleaf fern.
Motta
But if people did want those kind of ferns, were they still dependent on this area, or were there other parts of the country, do you know of?
Hattaway
Not from what I remember.It was mainly this area, plus the Pierson-Crescent City area, that was the mainstays.Later on, it became, everybody started to go off—not everybody.Several of the nurserymen started going off to Costa Rica and islands, and growing fern down there.In fact, one of the largest growers, probably still today, moved from Zellwood.Name was John Marcell.He moved to Costa Rica, and the last I heard, and I haven’t seen John in a long time, he had over 1,000 acres of saran shade cloth, growing leatherleaf fern, and ferns shipping all over the world.Actually, I’ve been told he controls the fern market in Costa Rica.This[?] big.[laughs]
Motta
Was Zellwood into the fern industry, or were they in other agriculture?
Hattaway
And actually Zellwood was—it was a small little town, still today.Marcell was the main grower at that time of leatherleaf fern.Went over to Lockhart, there was another grower over there, name of Joe Wofford, and he had a small fernery, probably ten or fifteen acres.He was growing leatherleaf fern.And Apopka itself had started transitioning over from the fern business—the Ustlers, Mahaffeys—golly, some other families there.But they were more into the tropical foliage business, and growing—building—greenhouses, taking slat sheds and growing tropical plants, which were now becoming very popular.So they shifted from the fern business over to the tropical plant business.And I shifted, also.I saw the handwriting on the wall.The one I built over in Oviedo, myself, it was only small as ten acres.But I sold that to another fernery guy out of Crescent City, took the money of that and started buying property in Altamonte Springs, off Hattaway Drive, and built my first greenhouses.And I went in the greenhouse business.So I shifted from the fern business over to the tropical foliage business.
Motta
More broad[sic].
Hattaway
Yeah. broader opportunity of selling to a greater amount of people.And my first greenhouse I built was out of used lumber, and I took a saw mill myself, and cut the two-by-fours and four-by-fours out of used lumber, and built my first building, which was 30 feet wide and a hundred feet long, which I have pictures of it there.And, gosh, over the years, became a pretty good size.[laughs]
Motta
And where did you say this first one was?
Hattaway
It was over just off of Hattaway Drive there in Altamonte Springs.Small place.
Motta
Okay.So how long were you—your property in Chapman, you said it was on Chapman Road?
Hattaway
Yeah.I was over there—I was in Chapman, probably, I had that nursery probably ten years.A good while, long enough that I’d made enough money working at night.At the Continental Can Company, they were paying me union wages, and I never joined the union.But I was making big bucks, and I was able to buy the land and do the things I’d need to do to get a business going.And it was pretty successful, but when I had the opportunity of selling that property to another person, then take that money and come back over into Altamonte, and go into a different business—although I was still in the agriculture business, it was a good shift.I ended up—well, the fernery there had 20 acres there on Hattaway Drive, and greenhouses—had probably ten acres of greenhouses there.And grew there for a number of years.To build the buildings, [?], build the buildings, I was—to get the lumber for that place—I was going, also to get the used lumber, I was going up and down the railroad tracks.They were taking down power poles and telephone poles, and I would cut the telephone poles and take the arms.At that time, they had arms going out with wires on them, and those were like three-by-fours, and they were like eight feet long, and I would use those for posts, as I gathered used stuff to build my whole nursery.
Motta
Were they just, like, the ones that they left there?
Hattaway
Yeah.
Motta
Was it okay that you took those?[laughs]
Hattaway
Yeah. definitely.They knew I was doing it.They were taking them down.
Motta
And, so, you pretty much built all those house, the original houses, yourself?It sounds like you’re a jack of all trades.
HattawayI am. [laughs]
Motta
Did you enjoy the growing aspect?Like, did you have a green thumb, or was it like…
Hattaway
Oh, yeah.
Motta
Did you enjoy the business?
Hattaway
I enjoyed the business, and I definitely did not have a green thumb.But I enjoyed the business, and I didn’t know anything else.What else could a guy do?There wasno—there was nothing out here.You either worked for the Hattaways, you worked for the Vaughns, you worked for the Casselberrys, or you worked for the Bradshaws in the grove business.This was agriculture community.There was nothing to do.Or, work at the dog track, something like that.So it was, you know—happy as a pig in slop.[laughs] What else can you do?This is what it is.
Motta
This might be going back a little bit, but did your family have any influence on early Altamonte Springs, like developing and like with the government?
Hattaway
No, my father did.He was elected a constable.He worked for Hibbard.And when Hibbard incorporated the City of Casselberry—I’ve heard my mother and father talk about that the night that they did the incorporation, they had a town hall meeting before it was ever incorporated in Mr. Casselberry’s office.There was a—had to have a certain amount of people in the meeting to have a quorum and to be able to appeal to the legislature for incorporation.
Motta
And this—as a town?
Hattaway
As a town.As a town.And they didn’t have four[?] people…
Motta
This was around 1940?
Hattaway
In the room, so my father left the meeting, went home—we lived on Concord Drive—and brought my mother to the meeting, and she voted, and that’s how, that was part of the process of incorporating the City of Casselberry.My father was elected in 1941 as the first constable of the City of Casselberry.And it was a, I guess, kind of a window-dressing job, but he was constable for eleven years in the City of Casselberry.
Motta
And that’s kind of like the police chief of the town?
Hattaway
That’s right.Yeah.He was the police chief.[laughs] I don’t think he even had a badge.[laughs] But that’s old time there.
Yeah.But you know, again, you know, this was small town, U.S.A.Hibbard would have—and I can remember this so well—he would, at Christmas time, he would have a big Christmas party on the front lawn of the offices, and for all the employees that worked for Mr. Casselberry, his entire operation.And he would get every kid a gift at Christmas time.And this was black, white, whatever it was be.He would always throw this big Christmas party.Big deal.You’d either get a knife or get a yo-yo or something like that.[laughs] But, and he was quite a—he was a good man.A lot of people, you know, just—vision, had great vision.And smart, wasn’t hard to talk to.He was a young man at that time.He was just good to us.He was very good for the community.Barnetts won’t tell you that.And the Vaughns won’t tell you that.But the Hattaways damn sure will tell you that real quick.
Motta
Did you know Mr. Casselberry personally, as a young man?
Hattaway
Mm-hm.Yeah.I knew him.He, and especially Leonard [Casselberry]. I don’t know if you’ve interviewed Leonard, Jane [Casselberry]?
Motta
Yeah. about a week or two ago.
Hattaway
Leonard used to come to my mother and father’s house, and Leonard would love to read comic books.[laughs] He—he wasn’t too energetic.[laughs] But he would come in and read the comic books, and Jane—they lived over off of the old race track road [Dog Track Road], at the horse track.He probably told you that’s what they built there, as well.
Motta
Yeah.Was knowing the founder and, I guess, owner at that time of Casselberry, was that like a—in this year, that seems kind of, like, strange, or maybe not strange, but—was it, did it seem like a big deal, or was he just like any normal citizen?
Hattaway
No. It was—to the normal person, it was probably a big deal.But because my father worked for him, and with him, I would go into my father’s office, and Mr. Casselberry’s office was right there.And he had a big picture window that he could look out into my father’s office, and then be able to look out into the grading there.They graded fern—longs, shorts, mediums, whatever you were looking for in the size of fern to ship.And, you know, he was just there all the time.He had a—I can remember so well—he had a big, big tarpon fish mounted in his office in back there.He would go to—my father, in fact, I’ve seen some pictures of him—he would go to the flower shows in Chicago or New York, where they might be, and Martha [Casselberry], his wife at that time—he married three times—Martha would wear, he would wear white riding pants—horses, cows?
Motta
Mm-hm.
Hattaway
And boots, real knee boots up there.With a big coat on.All in white.And a fern spray on this thing.Promoter.
Motta
Yeah. representing his…
Hattaway
Yeah.He was a promoter, as well.Promoted, and he had a knack about doing that, much better than the Vaughns and the Barnetts, as well.But, yeah, he was a good man.I can’t tell you that enough times.
Motta
So you started getting into the nursery, would it be considered nursery business or the greenhouse…
Hattaway
Greenhouses.Yeah.
Motta
How long were you involved with that before you looked more towards retail?
Hattaway
I started in the fern business when I got out of high school, 1954-55.I was in the fern business by 1960, with the fernery over in Chapman Avenue in Oviedo.And then started the first greenhouses and then grew that business.And I went out of the business in 1988, of the foliage business.So I graduated, basically, from the fern business over to the foliage, from the foliage into the foliage business itself.Ended up with this place, which is 500,000 square feet of what was greenhouses.But I built steel structure buildings, I told you.And today it’s now the steel structure buildings that are storing boats, cars, and recreational vehicles.1974-75, I bought a farm in Puerto Rico, and I started out with thirty, three thousand, building 3,000 square feet—300—yeah, 3,000, 30-feet wide and 100-feet long.And I bought a farm in Puerto Rico that was 80 hectares of greenhouses.And I was shipping fern or foliage plants from Puerto Rico, by sea freight, to Europe.So I moved from 33,000 square feet, to a farm here, and a farm in Puerto Rico.And I farmed in Puerto Rico, foliage plants, for twenty years, twenty-two years.
Motta
Did you sell that land, or still…
Hattaway
Yeah, I did.I sold it.I sold it.I wanted to go out of the nursery business.My brother, and then, by then graduated from University of Florida, had a degree in horticulture, and he wanted the nursery in Puerto Rico, so I sold the nursery to him in Puerto Rico.And he farmed in Puerto Rico for, I don’t know, another eight,-nine years.And we had three major hurricanes hitting back to back.First time we had insurance.We rebuilt.Second time, had insurance.Insurance company went belly up, and we rebuilt.And the third time, we said, “That’s it.”And we sold it.And then I was here all the time, and I just started converting all the buildings over to what you see today.
Motta
So about what time did you decide you wanted to get out of that business?
Hattaway
1988.
Motta
Okay.
Hattaway
Yeah.I already had another vision, what you see today.
Motta
Works out for you.
Hattaway
Yeah, it worked out.Yes.Yeah.It really—what was my whole plan at that time, was—I had roughly 30 acres here—was to add on a trailer park in front of me, which today is a public shopping center.And I was trying to buy their property, and I wanted to build a big industrial park, 40-45-acre industrial park.And I couldn’t buy that trailer park, and made them some ridiculous offers.I’m glad they didn’t take it, ‘cause the market went to hell in a handbag.I ended up, you know, basically looking at what they were doing, and I said, “If they will pay $35.00 a month to park a boat outside in an open field, with grass and grasshoppers, what will they pay to put it inside the building?”And from there, you know, it grew from there.So, in 1988, I was in the foliage business.In 2012, I’m now in the storage business.And the place is doing fairly well.
Motta
That sounds like a pretty brilliant idea, just converting the fields to this.Do you know if any other growers have took that...
Hattaway
No, no.They can’t.They all built buildings that were not convertible.They couldn’t do what I did.In fact, I saw Earl Vaughn two weeks ago. Had a funeral up in Apopka, and went over and we were talking—and I know Earl.Great guy.I like Earl.I don’t know if you’ve met him or not.
Motta
No.
Hattaway
You need to meet him.You need to meet Earl Vaughn.
Motta
I would love to.
Hattaway
Vaughn Greenhouses.They’re in the book.He’s no longer in the foliage business, but he has a farm, a foliage place up on [Florida State Road] Highway 46 up in Sanford.And saw him, and I said something, and he said, “Hattaway, what you did is brilliant.”He said, “I’ve been trying to do the same thing, except I can’t get my zoning.I’m in the Wekiva [River] Protection Area.”And so, he can do nothing other than what he’s doing.So, you know, fortunately, when I started building the buildings, I then started working politically to change the zoning on this place.And so I did it back early.If I tried to do it today, I’d probably never get it done.
Motta
Are you still involved in local politics?
Hattaway
I just write checks.[laughs]
Motta
[laughs] Well…
Hattaway
No, I’m still involved.I have a lot of friends in the political scene.I help them.You know, I served eight years in the [Florida] Legislature.Loved it, and had fun with it.Eight years at Orlando International Airport.That’s a full-time, non-paid political job, and did that for eight years.
Motta
And what was your—for the airport, what was your…
Hattaway
I was the—actually, I was chairman for four years, and vice chairman for two years, and on the board for eight.And the governor appointed me.Lawton Chiles appointed me.And so, I served there, and when I went on the board, there was $10 million worth of construction going at the Orlando International Airport.When I left, eight years later—yeah, eight years later it was—it was $500 million worth of construction going.And they had another $500 million committed to build the south terminal, and the new board decided that they didn’t want to do that, and so the new board today is trying to figure out how they can get the money to build the south terminal for international rivals.And, you know, that was a group of Democrats—John Rich, Bill Miller, Howard McNelty, myself—four really strong Democrats.We got in and got aggressive, said, “This place is gonna grow.”And we went from 22 million passengers—eight years later, it was like 31 million passengers.That’s growth.And all we did, we went out and started marketing the Orlando International Airport, as a board, as a group of people, with the mayor of Orlando, Linda Hood, and the county chairman, Linda Chapin.And we were a hell of a team, and we moved around this country, all around this world, basically.And brought airlines in, British Airlines[sic], Southwest [Airlines], Virgin [Atlantic].Those were all new carriers that came in that eight-year period of time.
Motta
Were you involved in the [Orlando-] Sanford [International] Airport or the…
Hattaway
That was my first venture.Back when we did that one, Kay Shoemaker was the chairman, and John—what was the name—Steve, he was the executive director.I can’t think of his last name now.But he came to me, I was a new board member, and he said, “You know, we need to go after international passengers for the Sanford airport.”So we went to Kay Shoemaker and talked Kay into letting us fly, I think it was, Toronto, Canada.And the concept that Steve had—and I was just the baggage, went along with him—that we need to go to Holiday Travel, and talk to them about direct flights from Toronto to Sanford, and not from Toronto to Orlando.And we met with the Holiday Travel, they thought it was a good idea, and he was very much in favor of it, but the issue was that the travel time coming from the Sanford Airport to [Walt] Disney [World], you didn’t have the 414, I think it is, or 4…
Motta
Oh,[State Road] 408, [State Road] 417?
Hattaway
417, yeah, coming across the lake.You didn’t have that segment built, and, so, that was a stopping point.When that segment was built, Holiday Travel and a lot of those guys started flying into Sanford, and bypassing Orlando.Well, in the meantime, I moved from the Sanford Airport board, over to the Orlando Airport.[laughs] So, it was quite a conflict there for a while.[laughs] And Larry Dale—and I don’t know if you know Larry—but Larry Dale and I had some real knockdowns and drag-outs about the airports.He’s the executive director of the Sanford Airport.
Motta
Oh, yeah?
Hattaway
Yeah.Yeah.
Motta
I’m curious how you, how did you even get involved with the airport, like the industry?
Hattaway
The governor.
Motta
Okay.
Hattaway
The governor.Yeah, I—when Lawton was elected—Lawton Chiles—I’d been in the Legislature.I knew him very well, and I worked with him for his election.And he was elected.He appointed me to the lottery commission.I didn’t believe in the lottery.I didn’t like the lottery.When it was approved, I was in the Legislature.I voted against it.And was opposed against it then, and Lawton told me, said, “I want you to be on that board.You’re the first Democrat to be appointed, and I want to get rid of the executive director.”I forget her name.She was really good, too.But he wanted to get rid of her and he wanted to change the entire board.He wanted to make changes.And so, I did that for a couple of years.And I was tired of it, and finally we just got enough Democrats on the board that I went to the governor, said, “I’m out of here.I don’t want to do this anymore.”In the meantime, when that happened, the [Greater Orlando] Aviation Authority thing came up available in Orlando, and I was supporting a Republican, Sue [inaudible] was her name, and Sue wanted to be appointed to the board.And I went to the governor to appoint her from Seminole County, and the governor says, “No, I’m not going to appoint a Republican.But I will appoint you if you want to take the job.”So I said, “Well, okay. I’ll do it.”
Motta
Did you have an interest in air travel?
Hattaway
Yeah, I did, because of Sanford.And I knew that it was a very, very important job.The Orlando International Airport is the economic engine that really runs this community today.And the things they’ve accomplished, and the size of the airport.This is number one around the state of Florida, certainly, that I enjoyed that.But I did, I was able to go into that segment having eight years in Tallahassee being a legislator, that I knew a little bit about politics, and I knew that a lot of my newfound friends that I found in Tallahassee, of eight years, when I was no longer elected, they didn’t know my first name or my last name.And when I was appointed to the Aviation Authority in Orlando, I told my wife, Charlotte, I said, “This is altogether different.We’re going to have a lot of brand new friends, and they’re going to love us for eight years.And when we’re gone, they won’t know our name.So we’re gonna do this different.We’re gonna do what the hell we want to do, and we’re gonna do the things that we think are right, and eight years from now, we’ll be good.”And that’s how we prefaced that.So it was fun.It was, like I said, it was a full-time—as a chairman—non-paid, political job.But would I do that again?Probably not.It was the right time.You know, I’ve been very fortunate that I’ve lived at the right time, when things were just starting to peak or things were really going smoothly, and everybody was getting along.
Motta
It seems like you’ve always been able to do what makes you happy.
Hattaway
I’ve been lucky.You’ll never sit across the table from a more blessed, lucky guy than me.Life has been good.With high school education, I’ve competed with all of them.
Motta
Work ethic.Whistling[?] away[?].
Hattaway
It’s worked out, worked out fine.[laughs] So, and I laugh about. In fact, I’ve brought my report cards in today for some reason, and I looked at those report cards, looking through stuff, and I said, “Man, I was a straight-F student.”[laughs] So, but, it’s been fun.Life’s been good, been good.
Motta
I wanted to ask you, for the Sanford Airport, when did that start becoming—when was it under construction?
Hattaway
It was, you know, it was a naval base [Naval Air Station Sanford], and then they converted over into a commercial airport, and I don’t remember the years.But I was on that board—phew.It wasn’t in the—must have been in the late ‘70s when they started converting it over.Yeah, I can’t remember the dates on that one.
Motta
So, did—it might have been the fern industry—I mean, it might have been kind of already low at that time, but was there any kind of transition?‘Cause you said the railroads, in the early days, that was like the artery.Was there, like, did the airports start to be more of a central thing with transportation?
Hattaway
With ferns, no.No.With the fern business, it became trucks.
Motta
Okay.
Hattaway
Everybody moved from the—we did some air freight, not a lot.Most of it was done by—the whole industry changed from trains and rail over to the trucking industry.So there was a—trucking lines were moving strictly either foliage plants or ferns by truck itself to the destination.The fern business itself—the labor, cost of labor, the cost of materials, the cost of land—all those things just became cost-prohibited to be able to do anything with it.You asked a question earlier about, you know, do I miss it?I loved the plant business.I really enjoyed it, and still today would like to be in the business, except I know I can’t make any money at it.And I’m not gonna fool around with something I can’t make money at as well.But, you know, the guys in Apopka and the guys that been in the fern business, and growing something, you know, a plant or product, I think they all will tell you, you know, it’s just a great place to—it’s a fun thing to do.And it’s really rewarding to put a little plant on a stem into a piece of sphagnum moss, and grow it to a finished product, and ship it.If I had a nickel for every plant that I’ve grown, I’d be a very wealthy man.Rick [Hattaway] enjoyed it.My brother enjoyed it very much.And I kept telling him, “You don’t want to go into the greenhouse business.You want to stay out of it.”My mother told me that as well.But, you know, he followed the family trade and did that as well.But, it’s a good life.It’s a good opportunity.
Motta
That whole watching something grow, that seems almost kind of like a good metaphor for your, all your business [inaudible].
Hattaway
[laughs ] Yeah.Yeah.I read an article today, an old one, gosh, about when I developed that orange grove over there, and it was—Phil [inaudible] was the city manager.It was quoting him about what I was doing over there, and how I environmentally was taking care of Lake Lotus, and all the things I did back then.But, you know, to see the growth, or where we were back in the ‘40s and ‘50s, and where we are today, people have opportunities.There were no opportunities when I was growing up.Either you worked in a fernery or you worked in an orange grove.There wasn’t high school education.People weren’t going to college.
Motta
You had to find your own…
Hattaway
You had to find your own, you had to make your own way at that particular point in time.
Motta
Since you brought that up, I’m curious what you think about how this area—I probably can’t imagine what it was like when you were a kid.What do you think?How do you think it’s progressed?Are you…
Hattaway
I’m for growth.I’m growth.Opportunities.I mean, I had a farm, sold it a couple years ago up in Alabama, little town called Opp, Alabama.And it was heavy agriculture, farming area.And today—Opp, Alabama—you can take a shotgun down the main street and not hit a soul.There’s just nothing to do there.And that’s the way it was here.The growth has been really, really, to me, healthy.It’s been giving good opportunities to people having good jobs.Our way of life—there are no poor people in this community today.You see some not as well off as others, but everybody either has a television, or everybody has food on the table.Everybody has an opportunity to make something of themselves, you see, if they want to take that opportunity.And back then, there was no opportunities.You had to make it yourself.And today there’s many doors open for employment, and it’s not all agriculture.At that time, it was.But am I in favor of growth?Absolutely.Has it been good for this community?Absolutely.Has it been good for this state?Absolutely.
Motta
Is there anything that you see in this community, that you don’t find good about—like, obviously, there’s a lot of good growth brings, but is there anything you lament that has changed, or any nostalgia?
Hattaway
I think the one problem that we have in our community is that we have not been able to keep up with the road—the growth with our road network—and mainly because of the lack of proper leadership from the Legislature.We’ve never had the political voting power to be able to build a road network they have on the south coast, South Florida—they have on the west coast.And our group has been splintered—Democrat, Republican— and many times have not worked together to have the power base in Tallahassee to get the state dollars to build—FDOT [Florida Department of Transportation]—to build our community.So we’ve not done a good job on our roads.And you have one major road going through this entire community, from Daytona Beach into Tampa, and that’s I-4.Other than that, you have very limited roads.If it wasn’t for the East-West Expressway [SR 408], the [Central Florida] Expressway Authority, we wouldn’t have any roads.So that’s been a blessing to us, but I think that’s our biggest problem.Our growth has been handled with zoning—comprehensive land plan—where the commercial’s going to be built, where the residential’s going to be built—all those things, I think, have been handled very well.We have a great water system, sewer system in Central Florida.We have all the things conducive to solid development, except the roads.And you get on these roads, and you know what it’s like.
Motta
Yeah.
Hattaway
Gridlock.
Motta
But I’m kind of surprised to hear that—weren’t a lot of the old, like ‘70s, ‘80s, ‘90s, Florida Republicans, weren’t they kind of pro-growth and infrastructure?Wouldn’t they…
Hattaway
Well, when I was in the Legislature back in the ‘70s, the [Florida] House [of Representatives] and the [Florida] Senate was controlled by the Democrats, and the Republicans were along for the ride.And then, when power shifted chains, we didn’t see a lot of growth coming here.I mean, we’ve had—I don’t want you to write this.
Motta
What’s that?
Hattaway
[laughs] I don’t want you to write this.This is off the record on this one.Yeah.
Motta
All right. It is May 30, 2012, and I am speaking to Mr. Leonard Casselberry and Mrs. Jane Casselberry at the Museum of Seminole County History. To start off, Mr. Casselberry, can you tell me a little about where you were born and your childhood?
Leonard
Well, I was born in Chicago[, Illinois]. I fit in a shoebox when I came down here, and I grew up and went to school in Winter Park.
Motta
So you just moved down here when you were one or two?
Leonard
Yes, yes.
Motta
So you went through high school in Winter Park High School?
Leonard
I went to military school two years.
Jane
Bolles
Leonard
Bolles Military School in Jacksonville.
Motta
Jacksonville.
Leonard
And went in the Navy.
Motta
So did you not spend much of your childhood in the Central Florida area, or…
Leonard
Oh, yes. Yes, went to school in Winter Park, and back out in Casselberry, when I was working out there, following my dad around a little bit. It’s what you usually do [laughs].
Motta
So how long did you stay? You went through high school here, or just—when did you go to military school?
Leonard
Junior, senior year.
Motta
Okay. Was there any particular reason you went there, or...
Leonard
Well, it was just coming up on the war [World War II], and dad sent us for a little military training or something.
Motta
So how old were you when the war broke out?
Leonard
Eighteen or something.
Jane
Seventeen, I think.
Leonard
Seventeen.
Motta
Seventeen? So you didn’t serve? You were a little too young then?
Leonard
Couldn’t get in, then.
Motta
Yeah. No, no problem there.
Leonard
[laughs].
Motta
So do you have any memories of—I mean, how was it, being the son of somebody who was starting his own town?
Leonard
Of course, we—Dad[1] was in the fern business out here, and occasionally I could ride from Winter Park, where I went to school at. We lived on Lake Maitland in Winter Park, and I’d ride with Dad coming out here. From Via Tuscany, and then come out on…
Jane
Lake Howell Road.
Leonard
Lake Howell Road, and turn left and come back out this way.
Motta
I imagine that trip was different then, much different-looking.
Leonard
Yes, came by the turkey farm, and came on out through the orange groves, on out to Casselberry.
Jane
It wasn’t Casselberry in charter until 1940. His dad came in 1926, to work with—what’d they call it, Fern Park Estates? Where they would try to have like an artist colony, and people to come down, and they would have a little piece of fernery, and some orange, piece of orange groves. Maybe they’d have a little income with their house, and they could retire here or come in the winter, and…
Motta
And that was with Mr. Burnett?
Jane
Yes, he was hired to sell real estate, and to—and Mr. Burnett had a fernery, and Mr. Casselberry started his own fernery, and of course there was a lot of tension between the two.
Motta
Yeah, I’d imagine. Yeah.
Jane
Yeah.
Motta
And you went to Winter Park High School, correct—s well?
Jane
I did. I graduated from Winter Park High.
Motta
And that’s where you two met?
Jane
Yes.
Motta
So did either of you do any work with the ferns or azaleas or anything? Like, were you actually…
Jane
He did as a kid, in the winter, when they called everybody in due to the danger of freezing.
Motta
Any stories there?
Leonard
Well, you know, are you familiar with a fern shed, and you see the pots and so on? But what’s the temperature on there? And the temperature indicates it’s going to be down close to freezing. We’d call the hands in, so to speak, and watch the temperature, and then Dad had thermometers stuck in the different areas around the fernery, so we could check the different areas, and when the temperature goes down in one part of it, they notify, send somebody out to get the hands, ‘cause most of them didn’t live in Casselberry. They lived over in Altamonte [Springs], and they’d send the truck around, get the fellows to come in that were gonna be there, and one of the ladies would come in, do a little cooking for us. We’d watch, read the thermometers, and when the temperature goes down close to 30-something, we’d pass the word along. The men would come on in, and they’d get their—some of them would have—Dad used to issue boots, and…
Jane
How did they light the smudge pots?
Leonard
They’d go around with—light the flare or a little torchlight that they could light, and they’d tip them down and spill some of the diesel and gas mixture into the pot to get it started.
Motta
Into the soil?
Leonard
In the pot. Light up, take a little while, ‘cause it was fuel oil and not gasoline. It’d explode or something. So.
Motta
So that’s how they kept the ferns warm?
Leonard
Yes—well, they’d light it. And, I was reading—Paul Bates was one of those foremen there, and he’d go in and light the north, and the west, or sometimes the east side, first. A row along the fence. Well, the heat inside slat roofs like that, keeps some of the heat underneath. But it’d let the sunlight in the daytime, but when it got cold, it’d keep some of the heat in it. When the temperature got down to 32 [degrees Fahrenheit], they’d light up the side that the breeze was blowing on, and that would go through the fernery and would still keep it above freezing, until it got lower at other parts and they’d light other pots. Sometimes they’d have to light them all—before morning, ‘cause the cold temperature here about seven o’clock or after. It was quite interesting, and we’d get around the heaters, and of course we’d have to continue reading, and if the temperature drops down, or comes back up, we’d put some of them out, or didn’t light them all. When the time comes to shut them down, they’d go by and snuff them out. Then we’d have to fuel them, and Dad got the Atlantic Coast Line Railway[sic] to put a side track on up there where Casselberry’s siding, inside where our railroad station is, and how it got started.
Got a siding there. They’d come in, drop a tanker there, and we’d pump it out of there, and some of it would be there, then we’d pump it from there, part of it, out to a tank out by one part of the fernery, and another part to another part. Then they also had another pump. It would feed the line. We had line running from the tank on out the fernery. I don’t know if it shows it in this photograph or not, of a—run about a two-inch line, and then drops down to smaller, and then we had the faucet to fill at the end of each row where the pots were going down through, like in a row, and fasten the oil hose there, close the valve, of course, and then, move to the next one and fill the next row of pots that way.
Motta
Well, there’s a lot—there’s a lot you don’t think about, that goes into that.
Leonard
Yeah, they dragged in the oil, you know, like a sprinkler line or hose line down there, and it has a valve on the hose, so you’ll stick it inside the pot and watch until it gets full, turn it off and go to the next pot, does the same thing, in a row, and then as far as they can reach, and then go over to the next one and go back down, to fill them so they’d be ready for the next day.
Jane
Well, tell him about how they’d cut the fern asparagus plumosus and how they sorted it and everything.
Leonard
Well, asparagus plumosus used to—you’d refer to it as that ferns you’d see in the front of the banquet or someplace like that.
Jane
The center of the table.
Leonard
The center of the table. Sometime you get a flake of it in your butter or something—like that, butter patty?
Jane
[laughs].
Leonard
It’s a lacy fern, and it usually lays flat. When it grows, as you call it asparagus plumosus, it comes up just like a shoot of asparagus, and comes on out and sticks way up in a room like this and finally feathers out up there like that, and turned—of course, it’s not always green. It’s yellow and gets green when—it gets dark green—when you grip it off to bring in the packinghouse, and in the packinghouse, they’ll cut them and bring them in in bunches, big bunches like this—field hands— ‘cause they’ll catch all different kinds when they’re clipping them, just trying to clip ripe ones, or good ones, so to speak, and then we they come in—and then the girls will grade them, and they’ll grade them, and some of them are long, and some of them are medium, and some will be shorts.
Motta
And get rid of the…
Leonard
The rest of them.
Motta
The rejects.
Leonard
Well, yeah. Go out, and then, they will be more or less laid flat on each other, like this, with a ball, bag of moss, like, on the end of it, with a—they’re tied together.
Jane
And it would have been in a tank of water.
Leonard
Ball of paper around it, and then they would be put in a tank to preserve them, like when you put flowers in a jar to keep them.
Motta
Were they shipped out like that?
Leonard
They would just sit down on slats in shallow tanks, like this, in rows, and then they would go in, pick them out, and go to pack them. Well, they were taken out of there, and dipped in icy water, and break up ice, put it in a tank, about so square and that deep. They’d dip them in so they’d get wet all the way through. Then they’d throw them on the rack and let them drain out, and then they’d put them in thin wood pack…
Jane
Crates.
Leonard
Crates, like food crates, like…
Motta
Like fruit crates?
Leonard
Similar to that, and they would line the box with newspapers. We used to open up newspapers, get them flat like this, and then we’d roll them and take them and sell them to Barnett or Casselberry who needs them, buys them, pays them so much a pound for them. So many cents a pound for them. The newspapers all flat, and they’d take four, five, six of them to line the box, put down the end, the side, and the side like this, and some in the bottom. They’d put a few bunches of fern in there like this, and then they’d have a chunk ice, and wrap it in newspaper, several layers, depending upon the size of the box for shipping, and you’d be put it in the middle. They’d put some more fern around it like that, close newspapers around it like that, and close the crate like that. Then you gotta—like an ice box, ice in the middle, wrapped up in paper, and the fern’s the insulation, and outside’s the insulation’s newspapers, and they’d take it to the railway express, and they’d load it on the train.
Motta I never realized how much ice was involved with ferns.
Leonard Yes.
Jane And the—these ferns were shipped directly to the florist, and they could be packed to order if they wanted so many shorts or longs.
Motta
And did you ship just to around the Florida area, or nationally?
Leonard
Nationally.
Jane
All the states and Canada.
Motta
Oh, yeah?
Jane
At one time, it was the largest fern business in the world.
Motta
And that kind of tapered off after the [World] War [II]?
Jane
Well, during the war, of course, that was not a priority, to ship ferns. There were war materials. Also, a lot of the men were called to war, and didn’t have people to work.
Motta
So the women were mostly working in the…
Jane
So that’s when Mr. Casselberry was looking for something to help the war effort that would involve something that the women would be good at, and they said women can sew, you know. So that’s when they started making the bandoliers for the Army.
Leonard
And parachutes for fragmentation bombs?
Jane
That came later.
Motta
And your father—did he own the factories that made those, or...
Jane
Yes.
Leonard
Yes, he converted some of the buildings where the fertilizer mixing—where we mixed the fertilizer for a while, and we quit doing that and used that building on the railroad…
Jane
To make bandoliers.
Leonard
To make bandoliers on it.
Jane
But for the parachutes, we had to have a special building, and of course getting any priority to build anything was frankly impossible back then.
Leonard
Couldn’t build, even with the parts that you couldn’t buy building material, to build houses or anything like that, ‘cause everything was going to the war.
Jane
But he got the permission ‘cause they needed this product, and it went up in, what, how many days? A month or two months, and they said it was like a miracle building, you know. So that’s where they were making the bomb chutes to be used…
Motta
Do you…
Jane
Do you wanna tell what they—how they—why they needed them?
Leonard
Well, they needed them for fragmentation bombs. The ones they dropped bombs on, they had to fly low to drop down. But when you drop a bomb, it follows along underneath your plane. So they wanted a parachute for the backup to slow the—so the pilot could get out, you know?
Jane
Lost a lot of planes that way!
Leonard
[laughs].
Jane
So they came up with the idea of putting a parachute on the bomb so it would slow it down and let the crew get away.
Motta
I’ve always seen the parachutes on the bomb, and I never thought of that. Yeah, that’s—could I—I’d like to back up a little bit. When you two met in high school, did you know who he was? I mean, did you know, like, who his father was?
Jane
Well, we were probably in tenth grade, and we would have shared some classes, study hall.
Motta
So everybody knew who his father was and everything at that time?
Jane
Well, not really much. But he had a nice convertible—owned by his dad—that he could come to school in. [laughs]
Motta
What kind of convertible?
Jane
Ford.
Leonard
This was a Ford Club Coupe convertible, with the top down.
Motta
Oh [laughs]. That’s a nice Florida car.
Leonard
Yeah, she wanted a ride home, but she didn’t tell me that ‘til later.
Motta
[laughs] Well, looks like things worked out well.
Leonard
Yes, very well.
Jane
Yes, and he lived on one side of Lake Maitland, and I lived on the other, and he would come see me in his mother’s sailboat.
Motta
So that was in Winter Park, not Maitland, you lived in?
Jane
That was Winter Park, Lake Maitland.
Motta
Okay. So, I mean, [laughs] what do you—I’d love to get your opinion on what you think of how the city’s [Casselberry] progressed. When you look at it today, what do you think? I mean, what comes to your mind?
Leonard
Well, we remember when we were incorporated, but also remember when we didn’t have so many families there.
Jane
Back to about the paper that they wrapped the ice in, that was a good way—later, after the war, when we had children, that’s how they made their money to go to the movies or whatever. We’d take newspapers, and roll them, and sell them to the fernery.
Motta
Oh, yeah? So people would just collect newspapers and sell them?
Leonard
Yeah, you’d collect your newspapers, leftover newspapers.
Jane
Stack them up and roll them.
Leonard
Recycling, so to speak.
Motta
Do you remember how much you got for like a bundle, or—like, how much…
Jane
Not much, but it was a lot then.
Motta
Yeah, few cents here and there. Yeah.
Leonard
Well, get a couple of rolls, and you made a movie ticket.
Motta
That’s not bad.
Jane
And the ferns were shipped on railway express, back then, ‘cause they didn’t have the airplanes and things, and one of the first times we ever sent a shipment out on air, we went up to Ocala, and there was just like a cargo plane, maybe like a [Douglas] DC-3.
Motta
So there wasn’t an airport near Sanford, then?
Jane
Well, I don’t know. Maybe that was the nearest one that was shipping agricultural things.
Motta
So do you remember—I read that your father got into azaleas—like starting to grow azaleas. Is that correct?
Jane
Yeah.
Leonard
Yes, back…
Jane
Earlier he was into gladiolas.
Motta
Oh, yeah.
Jane
They grew out gladiolas from the bulbs. And—I gave Kim [Nelson] a picture, and the Belgian azaleas were beautiful. Up ‘til then, you know, just had the plain azaleas. But we had—with the Belgian azaleas, there were so many different varieties, and they were ruffled, [inaudible], different colors and combination of colors, and he was in business with a man called Jules Cole…
Leonard
Jules Cole.
Jane
That knew about azaleas. That’s how they got introduced.
Motta
But it was mostly just ferns. That was the main product?
Jane
Yeah.
Leonard
The Belgian azaleas, they set up as a couple acres or something like that for him, and developed them. Dad sold them out on the highway, and would scatter them around through town.
Jane
There was an area that had, like the bay trees and oak trees and things. It was like north of where the [Casselberry] City Hall is now. It’s this plain, but back then it was just thick woods.
Motta
Near Lake Concord, or...
Jane
And he had, like…
Leonard
South of Lake Concord.
Motta
Okay.
Jane
Like a faux Cypress Gardens. He had girls in antebellum skirts and outfits, showing people around the azaleas.
Motta
Oh, yeah? Were there like refreshments and things there?
Leonard
No, it wasn’t that. But it was just a…
Motta
Just a…
Leonard
Something that slows traffic down.
Jane
[laughs].
Motta
So you mentioned going by orange groves. Your father wasn’t in that business at all? Orange…
Leonard
No, we had a couple places where we started some going. Tally Hattaway and I got a bunch of seedlings up, but we didn’t follow through with much of them.
Jane
They were, like, sour, and they had this idea of planting them in the ferneries to add a shade. I guess it was expensive to replace the slats, and they planted these trees—orange trees—that got big, to provide shade, and that was the area where you find Target now.
Motta
By the Evergreen Cemetery?
Jane
It was all ferneries, and it had those orange trees growing in there. The sour oranges.
Motta
So the orange trees were pretty much abandoned then, ‘cause of the sour?
Jane
Yeah.
Leonard
Yeah, well, they liked the oak trees, and the competition we had…
Jane
Oak trees, yeah.
Leonard
Was from DeLand ferneries, and they’d grow theirs out in the woods, under the oak trees.
Jane
Out in Volusia [County].
Motta
So that was your father’s competition, the DeLand growers?
Leonard
Some of it was there.
Jane
We had local competition.
Leonard
Yeah, and then, so, we started buying oak trees. Dad put some of them on every lot that he was developing, and then we had planted some of them in ferneries, and so we had quite a few that were trees, but we didn’t replace the slats much again, and just let them grow under the trees. We could get them that way.
Jane
Well, we moved to Casselberry after he got out of the Navy, after World War II, and he had a piece of fernery that he’d inherited, from an aunt or something?
Leonard
Aunt May had left it to my brother and I, a couple acres of fernery, were on these development deals where they could have a house on it and so on, and Dad just leased those, so I said, “Well, can I lease those?” And Dad said, “Yeah, let me lease them.” So I’d be responsible for them, and I’d see about getting the fertilizer, mowing them, taking care of them. Had a crew working, just like big crews too. Yeah. Of course, in most cases they’re cutting fern or something like that, but they also had crews that they’d weed when they weren’t cutting. They’d go back to weeding or something else.
Motta
So that looks like a pretty big fernery. Was that about average size, or was this...
Leonard
No, that’s just one acre or so. There’d be several of those put together.
Jane
And he got, worked up all these florist customers, and we went through the Midwest, visiting and trying to get business.
Motta
So was that your primary business after you got out of the Navy?
Leonard
Probably for a little while. But Dad wanted us to go to the conventions, and we’d have to wear white.
Jane
Yeah, he always wore a white Palm Beach suit, or white with white jodhpurs or something, with a spray of fern on his lapel, and so when we were going with him to Chicago, to the convention, we had to have the white suits, too. With the fern.
Motta
And you didn’t care for those?
Jane
Oh, they were fine, except I got one and he said, “No, that wouldn’t do it.” It had to be like the Palm Beach kind of suit.
Motta
Wrong kind of fern?
Jane
So—went back and got some more—another outfit.
Motta
So you’ve lived in Casselberry since then? You haven’t lived anywhere else, moved anywhere?
Jane
Not since then.
Leonard
Well, we lived at the horse track for several years.
Motta
At the horse track?
Leonard
Yes.
Jane
Yes, see, soon after we moved to Casselberry, Mr. Casselberry acquired the Seminole Driving Park, and that was what, at the time, a winter training track for harness horses, and it was built about 1925, something like that, and then at time there was thoroughbred racing and different things. So here we were. We had no experience in this at all, and they’re a very closed community—the horsemen. But, so then he had to get the property ready, the barns fixed up and tack rooms, and came with it like a grandstand and a clubhouse. Well, his dad wanted him to run the clubhouse like an American plan hotel. So, as well as maintaining the track and everything, we had to go in the hotel business.
Motta
And that was...
Jane
And he was his early twenties, with—had to learn, like, experience…
Motta
As you’re going along?
Jane
Yeah, and he had to go up north to the horse sales to placate the horsemen that might have been upset about something that happened before we got it, and talk them into coming back, and then he would fix up the barns and do this and that. So.
Leonard
Of course, we didn’t know that when Dad—it’s adjacent to his property, and Dad bought it and he’d acquired some additional property to be able to develop part of. Says, “You can take care of the horses or I can.” So we were in there and trying to take care of it. When they sold it is when the horsemen had agreed with Ben White Raceway, which hadn’t started yet. They said Orlando told them, “We’ll build this half-mile track in Orlando if you’ll come down here, leave Seminole [County].” So they agreed to do that.
Jane
Well, we figured, at least we’ve got this guy Frank that’s a track man that would know what to do and knows the horsemen, and then he announces that he’s been hired to go to Ben White [laughs].
Motta
So they just stole it all away from...
Jane
Yeah [laughs].
Leonard
Well, they stayed just a little bit. We had some help getting up until they had to move to over there, on how to handle—we bought a jeep to drag the track with. Had a water wagon.
Jane
A clay track. Dirt track.
Motta
And was this all—were all these jobs—you were writing at the time?
Jane
I was not writing—well, I had been writing just local news for the area newspapers.
Motta
Like the Sanford newspaper?
Jane
But not full-time. So, his dad advertised it with an organization called “Ask Mr. Foster”, where you could—they send people to you, a travel service, you know, and so we were getting—here we were, and we had people, ninety-year-old women and eighty-year-old men, and then we had young families looking for excitement, and women looking for men. Whatever, you know [laughs]. Had all this variety, plus we had the horsemen to feed, and the grooms you’d have to feed like at five in the morning, before they went out to work the horses, and we’d have—they would be kind of rough, and would come and get drunk or something, and then we’d have these nice people [laughs] Oh, it was interesting.
Motta
Sounds interesting. So did you have any other jobs after that, or...
Jane
Well, in the summertime, we didn’t have the horses. About May, they would go up to the races, and sometimes you would have car races back then, before they had the Daytona…
Motta
[Daytona] 500?
Jane
They would have stock car races on that track.
Motta
And where was this located, the track located? In the…
Jane
You know where Seminola Boulevard is?
Motta
The same, where the…
Jane
Where they’re building apartments there now.
Motta
Oh, the big…
Jane
At the end of Seminola Boulevard.
Motta
Oh, yeah, the big field area.
Leonard
Yeah.
Jane
Yeah, all of that was our track property.
Motta
When did that go away, the track?
Jane
We had a one-mile track. After Mr. Casselberry sold his white elephant. He—it was various kinds of horse races with pari-mutuel betting, and then it was dog races. I mean, we had like a dog track on each end of Seminola.
Motta
So the track went away in the ‘70s or so, or, around then?
Jane
Well, a few years back, they closed down the dog track, and then they sold it to this developer. Well, actually, they sold it to Northland Church, and then Northland decided to expand on their present property on Dog Track [Road], and they sold it to the developer, and they’re still building and building, building.
Motta
Oh, wow. Well, learn something new every day.
Leonard
Yes.
Motta
So, your opinion on today’s Casselberry?
Leonard
Is it what?
Motta
Do you like it? Do you enjoy what the city is like now?
Leonard
Oh, yes. Of course, Dad had a lot of fun while it was happening.
Motta
Yeah. I know it was a lot different.
Leonard
He was working and sweating on a lot of it, some of it.
Motta
You think he would be proud of what it has become?
Leonard
Oh, yes.
Jane
I think so. Right now, it’s in kind of flux in major areas, business areas, because of those fly-overs.
Motta
Yeah, I actually live just about a half-mile from one of those—the construction site. So, yeah.
Jane
Yeah, they built—you know, they bought up property. But it’s just sitting there, and the business had to move, or close, or something. But we like the parks, what they’re doing with the parks. They’re beautiful, and people are using them.
Motta
Well, let’s see if we have any…
Jane
You asked what he did. He’s done a little bit of everything, but he worked for Casselberry Utilities many years. His father developed the sewer system that built the sewer plant and everything. That was the first sewer plant in Seminole County that really treated the sewage.
Leonard
Sanford had one. They just chewed it a little bit and dumped it in a lake.
Jane
Dumped it in Lake Monroe.
Leonard
[laughs].
Motta
Did your father own the utility company, or was that city by then?
Leonard
He owned it.
Jane
He owned it, and eventually it was sold to the city, and he continued to work for the city.
Leonard
For a short time.
Jane
For a time.
Leonard
Seven years. Not enough to get a retirement out of it.
Jane
And then after he retired, he went to work for the City of Winter Park Utilities, ‘til he was up in mid-seventies.
Motta
Oh, impressive.
Leonard
That’s a while back.
Jane
Yes, 87 now.
Motta
Oh, wow. Congratulations. Working into your mid-seventies, that’s admirable.
Jane
A lot of people can be doing that now [laughs].
Motta
Yeah, it’s admirable, though. Was there anything else you would like to discuss that we haven’t already? Any anecdotes or anything?
Leonard
Any more questions you have?
Motta
I think we covered a lot there.
Leonard
Yes, more than you want, probably.
Motta
Oh, no, this is great for me. All right. Well, thank you very much.
[1] Hibbard Casselberry.