Kelley
My name is [Mary] Katie Kelley. I’m at the Public History Center in Sanford, Florida. We’re here today with Marianne[1] Maples and the date is October 19th, 2013. Um, Mary[sic], could you just introduce yourself. um, just some background information, where you’re from, how long you’ve lived in the area—that kind of thing.
Maples
My name is Marilyn Maples, and been here over 20 years. I moved into my house in 1993. And when I purchased here, Sanford was on that turn. It was either gonna go good or it was gonna go bad. And, you know, there was that sharp[?] period of time where I would drive in and go, What was I thinking? Now I’m just elated to drive home every morning. I love my town. I love Sanford. And, uh, we’re truly a community. And there’s[sic] not many communities in the United States. You know, we are, you know—our neighbors during the hurricane, they were out in forces helping each other. So—and right now, we’re doing a benefit downtown because somebody has cancer, so we always come together as a family to help our community.
Kelley
Um, how did you become involved with, uh, the Celery Soup[: Florida’s Folk Life Play]project and Creative Sanford[, Inc.]?
Maples
Um, you know it was, because of the networking of people. You know, you know somebody that’s doing something, and they ask you to come out and be a part of it. And I was just asked by—I want to say Brian Casey asked me to become a part of it—you know, Creative Sanford.
Kelley
Did you know what it was when you, um…
Maples
Not really. Um, I did see the performance at, uh—uh, at the Wayne Densch [Performing Arts Center] when, uh, the group[2] from Georgia came down. Um, and I loved it. I thought it was great, and I was kind of well-hooked at that moment. Uh, but I saw myself as more of maybe a storyteller. You know, gathering lines or, uh, doing the background, ‘cause I produced over twenty shows at the Wayne Densch, so—and very little stage time.
So with this play, it gives anybody the opportunity to be on stage, whereas you go to other theater groups and it’s very cliquish. So people never get the opportunity to go out on stage. Where this one, if you can fog up a mirror, you’re on stage.
Kelley
Um, what do you think is, um—what does being involved mean to you?
Maples
Um, it means, um—well, I’m preserving history. I’m—’m —I’m a storyteller. I’m preserving history. Um, and as showcasing what a great place Sanford is. And if you live here, you love it here. You know, there’s[sic] not many people living in Sanford, I would say, hate it.
Kelley
Um, what is your role in the current play?
Maples
Uh, I—I play Marlene Baggs of Baggs Produce, here on the corner of Twenty-Fifth [Street] and Sanford [Avenue]. And they’ve been there, uh, I wanna say since day one. And also, Arthurene—she was a tax collector in the Seminole County Courthouse back in the [19]50s.
Kelley
Um, well I have on here, “How do you get into character?” But I guess what we’re trying to get at is, um, what is your character’s role in Sanford history? Um, uh, what—why was their story included, I guess.
Maples
Uh…
Kelley
Do you think?
Maples
Um, well, I mean, everybody that’s lived here, you know, has a story—has a tell—has a story to tell. And, uh, the Baggs—we’ve got tons and tons. they were a colorful family. Um, you know particularly in the play, it’s called “rat-shot.” And this particular one is, uh—the mother got out the rat-shot gun, because her and the father were having an argument. So I mean, she was shooting in the store, things were exploding.
Um, and then the previous play that I was in, I was Marlene Baggs, as well. And it—he was a worm farmer. People would stop, you know, on their way to go fish and he said, “Hey. I could sell worms.” Um, so Arthurene is maybe not as colorful. Um, you know, she was just a person that worked here and was a tax collector.
Kelley
Um, what do you see as Creative Sanford’s and the Celery Soup play—what do you see as sort of their role in preserving Sanford’s history?
Maples
Well, we’re preserving also Seminole County. Um, people are, you know, more attuned to be, you know—to learn quicker, I think, with the visual aid. And a lot of people come to the theater and go, “I didn’t know that about Sanford.” I—you know, it’s just, uh, um—they’re just—or they go, “I knew that building, but I didn’t understand why it was here.” You know, what it was used for.
Also, um, on Sunday we’re gonna be hosting the fourth graders. We always host fourth graders with any of these shows, because it’s part of their, uh, curriculum to, you know—the history. Seminole history.
Kelley
Um, and then I guess finally, what do you see as the overall value of this project and your involvement, um, with the Creative Sanford group?
Maples
Um, well, my involvement, you know, goes, you know, far more than just being an actress. I’m also on the theater committee. I’m also the volunteer coordinator. Um, I’m also on the marketing—so it just brings people together to showcase your talents. And even to showcase talents you didn’t know you had. So it’s a, it’s an enrichment for anybody that comes out. And I encourage anybody to come out and be a part of it, because, like I said, if you can fog up a mirror, you’re an actress or an actor in the Celery Soup productions.
French
Um, uh, okay. This is [Dr.] Scot French. I’m also, uh, part of this project. Uh, I wondered if there ever were—if there have ever been any difficult moments in telling the story about Sanford’s history or Seminole County history?
Maples
Well, uh, in our original, uh, production, Touch and Go—uh, it was about a, uh, lost pilot who was between, uh, between worlds. He had already died, but he didn’t know he was dead. And, uh, so one of the scenes is the actual burial, you know, of a military, uh, personnel. And so they’re folding the flag very, uh, you know—it was very reverent.
And the woman playin’ the role, Karen Casey—I mean, she would just weep. And everybody’s in there weeping with her, because it was, uh—also, we have a thing at the end called, “I Remember.” and it’s, uh, where we’re remembering people who had passed. And, uh, and I’ve had two actors tell me that it would remind them of their kin. Uh, don’t remember kid’s last name, but it reminded him of his mother passing. He came over there and was just weeping on my shoulder. And then another woman, um—she’s, um, Dodie, and she’s the Celery Queen. [clears throat] And, uh, her son had passed away, and it brought tears to her eyes, because, you know, it was that time of year when he had passed. And so it—it—it—it touches not only the cast, but, uh, the audience, as well. I’ve had audience come up to me and say, “I cried and I laughed.” I mean, this was just unbelievable. So there are difficult moments.
French
How about the fact that you’re dealing with, uh, a history that is, uh, in some cases[?] very painful? Things like segregation, and there’s even a scene with Dr. [George H.] Starke and the…
Maples
I tell ya, I weeped[sic] when I, you know, first saw it bein’ performed during rehearsals. Um, because I had no idea that a black person, uh—during that time, if they were injured, they could not go to the hospital in an ambulance. They either had to go by hearse or a family member. So, I mean, um, segregation is just—was just a bad thing, but it didn’t just happen here in Sanford. it was all over the United States. And it didn’t just happen in the South. it was also happening up North. Um, it was, uh—but not as bad, ‘cause, uh, just the population.
But I think, you know, even today people—even in the last year—people tried to show us as a very racial town and we’re not. Um, I think we’ve really evolved. Uh, I know for, uh, one of our actresses, Nancy [Harris] Ford, uh, she grew up here. And she remembers Jim Crow law[s] at the Wayne Densch. Wayne Densch has a balcony, and that’s where black people had to sit. And, uh, the white people were sitting down beneath. And when I would volunteer at the Wayne Densch, I would have people come in and say, “I remember I had to sit upstairs. But we were throwing things on the white kids below.” [laughs] So, you know, it’s been a hairy moment for everybody. You know, it was a sad time in our history. But throughout the world, there’s[sic] been many sad things. But there’s always, uh, something that rises up good out of it. You know, like the Phoenix. It rises up and is reborn.
French
Um, is the cast and crew and everybody involved, are you sort of aware of the significance—the symbolic significance—of coming together like this and—and telling these stories and integrating the—these histories that maybe not—weren’t integrated, you know, in the past? There was one community and another community. You made a very self-conscious effort to sort of weave these stories together. Are you sort of—do you think there is an awareness about, among the cast and crew, that what you are doing has this…
Maples
Oh, yeah. I mean, really, this brings you, uh, in a place where you would meet people you would not normally meet. Just because of, you know, where you live or who you socialize with. And so—and because of this, I have met some of the most wonderful people and I call them, you know, dear friends, like Dr. Annye Refoe. She was in the original one, and, uh, it was one of, uh, her tales of generations, where she was outlining, uh, you know, her roots. From Africa to Barbados to, you know, all the way up to Sanford. And she was the first one from her generation to get an, uh, education and a Doctor’s Degree. When I saw Annye on stage performing it, you know, during rehearsals, I fell in love with her. I said, “I want to be just like this woman.” So, yeah. I mean, would I have met her in any other place? No. So it’s really good.
French
And is there anything else that you would like to share with us or with anybody who is interested in this project? Just some final words or anything?
Maples
Well, you know, just as we were joking about, you know, there’s so much money to be made in history. You know, the theater suffers, as well. And so I was looking for, you know, people to come and see the play. and we’re also looking for people who want to sponsor it. You know, ‘cause, uh, history is so important. And particularly oral history. You know, I mean, I’m going to look back at this as cave drawings. You know, they had a story to tell. they told it on the walls. So this is, you know—this is our version of cave, uh, drawing. We’re telling the story. Preserving history.
French
Uh, great. Thank you.
Kelley
Uh, just to clarify. I believe in the introduction I said her name was…
Maples
Was Mary. It’s Marilyn.
Kelley
Marilyn.
Maples
You can call me Marley. you can call me Marilyn. You know, call me anything, but don’t call me late for dinner [laughs].
Kelley
Marilyn Maples is the subject of this interview. Thank you.
Maples
Alright.
French
Thank you.
French
So to—to—what we usually do with the beginning of the interviews is introduce ourselves and I’m Scot [French]. This is October 30th, 2013. And, um, we are interviewing, uh, Luticia Lee. Do you go by “Tish?” “Tisch?”
Lee
Tish.
French
Tish?
Lee
Tish.
French
How do you spell that? “T-I-C-H” or “S-H”?
Lee
S-H.
Maliczowski
T-I-S-H.
French
You know, on some of the things we had from Creative Sanford[, Inc]. It had “C,” and so I’m glad we asked.
Dingle
Yes[?].
French
Um, and so the first—let[sic] me do is to ask you: would you intro—you mind introducing yourself to us?
All
[laugh]
Lee
Well…
Maliczowski
Just tell ‘em your name.
Dingle
Tell ‘em your name.
Lee
My name is Luticia Lee, and I was born in Sanford in, um, 1923. And my house was built in 1926. And at—growing up, I could walk everywhere. I could walk to school. And um, at that time, there were just three houses on the block. And then in, um—I’m not sure when—but the Spencer house that was on the corner, it burned. It was the old house and it burned. So, until ’46, there was just this house and the one my aunt and uncle built. And then in ‘46, Braley[?] Oaklem[?] built more houses. And um, so things really did change you know. You—you didn’t have that many people here [laughs]. And, uh, you knew everybody. And now, I go to town and I don’t know anybody.
All
[laugh]
Lee
It’s changed so, but, um—and, I do have friends that I went to school with. And we try to go out once a week for dinner and we graduated together in ‘42 [laughs].
And that’s when, um, my dad—Mom and Daddy gave me my cedar chest. And that’s when, um, Mama crocheted me a bedspread, which I still have. And Daddy wanted to make something, and that’s when—it was the beginning of the [World] War [II]. And they asked for scrap metal and that’s when they took—were taking out—down their cannon. And Daddy had—was in the military and he helped take it down. And he got the, um, spoke from the wheel, and made my rolling pin, which is the only rolling pin I have used all these years. And I’m giving it to Cathy [Dingle],[1] ‘cause she cooks, and she bakes cookies, and she rolls ‘em.
All
[laugh]
Dingle
She[2] cooks as well, but I bake [laughs].
Maliczowski
I get the, um…
Dingle
Fireless…
Maliczowski
Fireless cooker.
All
[laugh]
Maliczowski
I’m gonna do the crock pot thing.
All
[laugh]
French
Oh great. Great.
Lee
So she gets the—and um…
But I’ve had a wonderful life. I really have. Been right here. Still have friends that I’ve had all my life. I’ve lost a lot, but when you reach 90, you, um—you—it happens, you know? So—and if I get sad, I just sit down and count my blessings, ‘cause I’ve got a lot of them.
I have three children, I have four grandchildren, I have four great-grandchildren, and I have wonderful in-laws. Everybody is good to me. And my husband took care of me. He’s been gone 10 years, but I have somebody do the yard, I have a landscaper, I have, um, a cleaning service to do the house. So I just sit around and watch people work.
All
[laugh]
Lee
I don’t work anymore [laughs].
French
Well we’re—we’re putting you to work today, because you are our resident historian.
All
[laugh]
French
And we’re—we’d love to hear a little bit more about Sanford during World War II. Uh, you graduated from high school in ’42?
Lee
Yeah.
French
And what are your memories of that period—of being in Sanford during the war?
Lee
Well, now, I was working during the war. Um, I was a secretary at the ice plant. And um, and we, um—we iced the cars. That, you know—I didn’t do it.
Unidentified
[laughs]
Lee
The people did. And, um, I kept the records. And, uh, they took all the stuff to troops and everything.
French
These are railroad cars or— or shipping cars? What kind of cars were they?
Lee
They were railroad cars. Railroad cars. It was the—on the tracks out on [Florida State Road] 46. And I think they still—they don’t—I don’t know if the ice plant’s still there.
Dingle
No.
Maliczowski
It was for years, but, uh, I don’t think it is anymore.
Lee
And, um…
French
And you were a secretary at the…
Lee
Mmhmm.
French
Ice plant?
Lee
For a few years. It didn’t really take.
All
[laugh]
Lee
I just did what I was told. And I—but, um, and it—it’s Sanford during the war. We—we had the base[3] out here. And, uh, sometimes we dated the pilots, which was a lot of fun.
All
[laugh]
Lee
But, um, I don’t know.
French
Did you, um—were—were there local rallies or efforts to sort of rally the town’s people? Uh, you mentioned that they decided to melt the cannon, because of the scrap metal drive. Do you remember much about the scrap metal drives, and other things?
Lee
Honey, I got—I—I researched that, and there’s the papers over there.
French
Oh.
Lee
And it—yeah. I wanted to know.
French
And so are these, uh—okay. So these are some of the materials that you—you did all the research on this, you…
Lee
Yes. I did.
French
You went down to the museum?
Lee
Yeah.
French
And um…
Lee
And see? It says, “County League [inaudible] scrap collection on per capita basis.” And, um, I—it was very interesting. It really was. And, and, uh “Legion pole?” Oh, I can’t read…
French
“Legion post will give up cannon in scrap drive.” This is perfect. This is exactly what we were hoping…
Lee
Yeah.
French
To find. You’ve done the work for us. [laughs]
All
[laugh]
Lee
Well…
French
Thank you.
Lee
I wanted to know what was, you know—and this was the Legion Hut.[4]
Maliczowski
And she had pictures made, and—and a frame made, and took the picture out to the Legion.
Lee
And see…
French
Oh, wonderful.
Maliczowski
So they would know.
Lee
And that’s what…
French
Is this also from the museum?
Lee
Hm?
French
Is this from the museum? Or is this a….
Lee
Well, um…
French
This photograph…
Lee
Uh, they took a picture. You see, they didn’t have a picture out at the new Legion Hut. And, um, I thought they should have one. So I went and—and got a picture. And—of the canon, and, um, now—but I couldn’t ever find out who that man was.
French
Mmhmm.
Lee
I guess the ones that were there then were all gone. So I don’t know who he was. But anyway, I had that, um, copied and I framed it and I took it out and I gave it to them, so they’d have a picture of the old Legion Hut.
French
That is wonderful.
Lee
And they put it up.
French
That is wonderful.
Lee
So, anyway…
French
This is great. And this—you—these pictures are from the museum? Is that where you found these?
Lee
Yes. I found them…
French
Great.
Lee
From the paper.
French
Great. Wow. And this is, uh, a handwritten note?
Lee
I had that and I can’t read it now [laughs].
French
Do you rem—what of the—you wrote this for yourself? Or…
Lee
Yes. For me.
French
And what was the—what was the event that led you to write that?
Lee
Well, uh, I think there was something in, um—in the paper about, um…
French
Do you want me to read it?
Dingle
Want me to go look, Mama?
Lee
You can read it maybe. It’s about when Daddy decided to make, um…
Dingle
Oh, oh this is when, um—deciding which precious keepsake you wanted…
Lee
Oh.
Dingle
To write about from your cedar chest.
Lee
Oh.
Dingle
And, um, how Granddaddy wanted you to have something that was from him. And how he went about getting the—the spoke and…
Lee
Yeah.
Dingle
Making the…
Lee
Making my…
Maliczowski
Your rolling pin.
Dingle
Your rolling pin to go in your hope chest. That’s why you wrote that up.
French
And this was from the paper?
Lee
I wrote it up to put in the cedar chest.
French
Oh, to put in the cedar chest. So did you write this?
Dingle
So that people would know what, you know—so that we would know where it came from. We would—we would have a history of why she had it and where it came from.
French
Mmhmm.
Lee
Because, um, I wanted them to know. See, Mama crocheted the bedspread and Daddy wanted to put something in it.
Dingle
Mmhmm.
Lee
So I wrote it…
Maliczowski
Wrote it down for us.
French
So, this is the rolling pin. Do you mind if I…
Lee
Sure.
Maliczowski
Go ahead.
Lee
I just wrap it up. I haven’t used it for a while. But she’s going to use it to make Christmas cookies.
Dingle
Yes. I will.
Lee
You can tell it’s been used.
All
[laugh]
Dingle
Lots of biscuits.
Maliczowski
A lot. Yeah. Biscuit—biscuit [inaudible] and pies.
Dingle
Biscuits and pies are mainly what it did.
French
Mmhmm…
Lee
Mainly it was Daddy’s biscuits.
Dingle
That’s right.
French
So when I read the story about this, we got to talking and—and, uh, thought about Well, what made him think to make a rolling pin out of a spoke? Because he worked at a paper factory, correct?
All
Yes.
French
So he would have been familiar with all the equipment that you could do this with, uh, milling? It’s called “milling?”
Lee
Yeah, but he was superintendent of the Crown Paper Company. That’s when they—they printed they, uh, wrappers. That’s when they wrapped fruit. It was individually wrapped for a long time. They don’t do that anymore. They just pack it in boxes and ship it off. But, um, Daddy was there so—and he was in the [American] Legion, and when they went to send the cannon back, he went to help them dismantle it, and that’s when he got the spoke, and, um, that’s what he could do. He could make me a rolling pin, and that was in ‘42.
Maliczowski
Because everybody needed a rolling pin.
All
[laugh]
Dingle
He was also a carpenter, so he had worked with wood in building this house. And if—if you look on the floor, you’ll see there’s designs in the wood. And…
Lee
And there’s my—my, uh, [inaudible]…
Dingle
Back in the corner. So he was…
Lee
That Daddy had built for me, when I was—yeah.
French
Oh.
Lee
When I was four or five.
Dingle
So he was always thinking of things to do with wood and something else to make and something to do, so I think that just came naturally to…
French
Mmhmm.
Dingle
To do that.
Lee
To do the rolling pin.
Dingle
Something for her.
Lee
It would go in a cedar chest.
All
[laugh]
Dingle
It would fit.
Maliczowski
It would fit.
French
So, do you know the story of the cannon? What was the history of this cannon? Was this someth—it was brought back from World War I?
Lee
Well, yeah. When they built the Legion Hut. Um, I don’t know where they got the cannon. But, um, they wanted a cannon from the First World War. So, I don’t know where they got it. Now they got a cannon out at the other—the other Legion Hut. And I don’t know where they got it. I think they just feel that, you know, it’s history. They had cannons.
Unidentified
Mmhmm.
Lee
It’s an old one. It’s got wooden spokes I think. I haven’t gotten out of the car to examine it, but I’ve driven by.
French
Uh, so, um, what other—do you have other memories of the home front during the war or the end of the war? There’s[sic] certain moments of that period…
Lee
Oh, I remember end of the war. Oh, there was a parade down on First Street, and I remember being [laughs] in the car. And we was[sic] driving, and my cousins were with me, and everybody was screaming and hollering. And Mama remembered the end of the First World War. And how, um, things were downtown then.
Maliczowski
Now during this time, didn’t Grandma and Aunt Marty still—didn’t they run the grocery store at that time, during the war? Were they running it? [inaudible].
Lee
They came in 1910.
Maliczowski
No, but did they still have the store in the ‘40s?
Lee Yes.
Maliczowski
Okay. Well, tell them about them having the store and one of the reasons—like, during the war they didn’t have this much[sic] problem with food, because they had a grocery store?
Lee
Yeah, but they also had rationing, you know.
Maliczowski
Mmhmm.
Lee
They rationed, uh, meat. They rationed sugar, and, um—and I do remember that.
Maliczowski
They rationed shoes. And tell them what happened with you. She has very tiny feet.
Lee
Oh, yeah. Shoes were rationed. Isn’t that funny? They rationed shoes [laughs]. Oh dear.
Maliczowski
But she had such a hard time finding shoes that everybody—whenever she would find it they would give her their shoe coup—what were they, uh…
Lee
Shoe coupon.
Maliczowski
Shoe coupon, so that she could buy the shoes, because she would—she loved shoes.
All
[laugh]
Lee
Yeah.
Dingle
It was hard for her to find them in her size so if they found a pair that would fit her they…
Maliczowski
They would have to use somebody else’s coupon to buy her a pair of shoes.
French
That’s great. That’s great. Did you know soldiers who had—from Sanford—young men of your age?
Lee
Yes.Yeah. I remember one of the boys in my class, who was killed. He was Fred Dyson[sp]. I remember that. I don’t remember. I don’t remember a lot of them going to war.
French
And the base being nearby—what was—you mentioned the pilots, uh…
Lee
Yeah.
French
Was there—was[sic] there other kinds of connections to the base, besides the kind of social connections?
Lee
Well, um, several of my friends worked out there. And, um, I know Margie married, er, one of the pilots. And, um, a lot of them, you know—I met some of them through friends that worked there. But, um, we didn’t—I mean, they weren’t there that long, you know. You just see ‘em and I know one time we went to New Smyrna [Beach] with a group, uh, a whole—I mean, it was usually in a group. So…
French
You mentioned that after the war, how much Sanford changed. You mentioned I think one of—all the building…
Lee
Oh, yeah.
French
Construction in this area.
Lee
Construction started. Houses were built.
French
And so this little town you grew up in became—started to grow and grow [laughs].
Lee
Yeah. And it’s still growing.
All
[laugh]
Maliczowski
Sanford was lucky, because it was both on the river and it had the railroad.
Lee
Yes.
Maliczowski
So that’s one of the reasons it was able to flourish like it did. And, um, there’s a big hotel downtown—well, now it’s not the hotel anymore, it’s, um, is the New Tribe’s Mission headquarters—world headquarters. It used to be the Mayfair Hotel. And people would come and stay for the winter, and that sort of thing. So it—ya know, it drew a lot of people and brought them here to spend their money in Sanford while they were getting away from the cold.
French
So, um, you stayed. People have come and people have gone. And you’ve been here, uh, and—why did you stay?
Lee
This is my home and I want to stay right here.
French
Uh, you’re surrounded by, uh, a lot of the artifacts of your life. All the great, um…
Lee
Yeah.
French
Pieces of furniture and art and…
Lee
Yeah. Uh huh. And Aunt Marty’s pitcher and bowl when she came in 1910. My grandfather was a doctor in Mount Olive, North Carolina. And when he died, um—he had made a—he bought a small hotel, and he made into a—that’s where he could take patients, and it was like a small hospital. And Aunt Marty worked for him.
But then he died and, um, uh, Uncle [James] came down and he was—he’s the one that started the grocery store, and his friend from here was up there. and he told my Uncle James he would sell him half of the grocery store, and give his son the other half, and—if he would come down. So they all decided to come in 1910.
Now Mama, and Aunt Ruth, and Grandma stayed up there ‘til they got the house built on Laurel Avenue. It burned down later. And, um, that’s when they came and Mama went to grammar school to the high school. And then they built the new—what was—we went to junior high. And it was the high school, and that’s where Mama graduated in 1913. And so Uncle James had started the grocery store—I mean, he was half-owner. But then his son didn’t like it, and he sold his half [laughs]. So it was [inaudible] and it was all during the war.
French
And do you have memories of the store?
Lee
Huh?
French
Do you have memories or picture of the store? Do you have any photographs of the store?
Lee
Ya know, it—it’s down—the building is still there, and it’s where The [Sanford] Herald is, right on the corner of Palmetto [Avenue] and First Street. And back then, the city didn’t decorate like they do[sic] now. And every, um, owner of the store would. And I remember Daddy putting— tying the Christmas tree to the lamp post [laughs] and—and decorating it for Aunt Marty. So, because Uncle James died recently, Aunt Marty ran the grocery store, so…
French
Well, some of these stories—well, the one story that—that the Creative San—well, first I wanted to ask you a little bit about how you, um, came to be interviewed for the Creative Sanford play? Do you know the…
Maliczowski
Well, I have a friend who was involved in Creative Sanford during both of the productions they’ve made so far, and I went to school with her sister, and so she knew me, and she knew Mama, and she knew that she must have some kind of story that she can tell. And so she said, “We need to interview Luticia.”
Lee
They came and interviewed me.
Maliczowski
And yeah. So they came and started talking to her and that was the…
Lee
[inaudible]
Maliczowski
Particular story that they decided to go with.
French
So they didn’t know when they came about the rolling pin. They just…
Maliczowski
No. They just knew that she had things.
All
[laugh]
Maliczowski
And stories and that she had been here her whole life. That she—that she was born here and grew up here. And that’s why they wanted to know her view of—I mean, they asked her lots of questions about lots of things, and this was one of the things they felt that they could incorporate into the play.
French
Were you surprised that they chose to tell that story?
Lee
Yes. I was. [laughs] And it was just real neat. And they did it really good[sic].
Unidentified
Yes.
Lee
And—and they—they told ‘em how Daddy did the rolling pin, you know. So we were given front row seats.
Maliczowski
Yeah. In the original, uh—the first play[5] one of mom’s best friends had a story in it. So they—they got so many stories that they couldn’t put them all in the first play. So they put ‘em in—they made a second play.[6] And they’re going to have a third one,[7] I think.
Lee
Yeah.
French
They said they were doing—still doing interviews for…
Lee
I think they’re doing something now.
Maliczowski
Yeah. They—they’re getting ready to.
French
And, um, so the other—I had a third [inaudible] just one other [inaudible] that I forgot in my notes here. Um, um, well, let me ask my—my colleagues here. Other questions that you would like to ask?
No? So we, uh, are also interested in this as a family story. So I’ll just step off the couch here for a minute and just have—if I could ask the two of you to join your mom. And we’ll just talk about it as a—this is a family. Oh, wow.
Dingle
Just if you wanted to see some…
French
Fantastic.
Maliczowski
Here, Cath. you sit in the middle and you get to hold the rolling pin.
Dingle
It’s my rolling pin.
French
So if you wouldn’t mind introducing yourselves.
Maliczowski
I’m Linda Maliczowski. I’m the middle child [laughs].
Dingle
I’m Cathy Dingle. I’m the oldest. Our brother’s not here. He’s the baby.
French
And so you, um, were you part of the—the original interview. I know if you were, because you had the connection to your friend.
Maliczowski
Right. And I live here.
French
And you live here.
Maliczowski
In Sanford.
French
And so, um, for you, um, this is a—a family heirloom. And, um, as you told the story, it—you—your memory of this is not just in a hope chest, but, as, uh something your mom used and…
Maliczowski
Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean we grew up with her doing that and eventually she told us all about it. But I mean, when someone would say, “Go get the rolling pin,” you knew what to get [laughs] and that was it. We had one rolling pin.
Dingle
And I really remember mostly biscuits. And pies.
Maliczowski
Biscuits and pies, because I learned how to do pies.
Dingle
Yes. And I learned to make a lot of biscuits with it so…
French
So for you, the memories attached to it are family memories? Not, not World War II, American Legion, home front, sacrifice.
Dingle
No. It’s Mama baking with it. Using it.
Maliczowski
She also made donuts.
Dingle
Donuts. That’s right.
Maliczowski
We had to roll them out and cut them with the little donut thing.
Dingle
Cut them and fry them. Yes.
French
Well, one of the things that that makes me think about is that people cooked like that all the time, and now it’s more rare[sic]. And you have a choice, whether you want to do that. It’s not part of our everyday lives to have a rolling pin but you still, uh—I’m sorry, but who’s getting the rolling pin?
Maliczowski
Cathy.
Dingle
Yeah.
French
You still cook and you…
Maliczowski
Oh, yes.
French
So does that make you feel connected in some way through the, you know—through the [inaudible]?
Dingle
Yes, because, you know, I remember Mama using it and I remember it, you know, in this house. And I remember it in our other house, and my granddaughters will help me use it. So, in fact, one asked me last week, she says, “Are we going to get to make Christmas cookies and use a rolling pin?” I said, “Yes. We are.”
All
[laugh]
Dingle
So they’re—they’re used to that.
French
And, um, do you—do you also have things like recipes and cookbooks, and things like that, that are…
Dingle
Oh, yes.
French
We have a student in our class who’s studying cookbooks. It’s actually a historical subject and an interesting one.
Dingle
Oh [laughs].
Maliczowski
There’s so many.
Dingle
Oh, so many. Yes.
French
So, uh, one of the things we’ve been thinking about in our class is the connection between personal stories and personal history. And then there’s the community history— Sanford. And then there’s national and world history. And I think that’s what’s unique about this object is that it connects all of them, you know?
Maliczowski
Yeah. Mmhmm.
French
So we really thank you so much for sharing that story with us, and sharing your time with us. The only—the other thing is if, if it would be okay with you for us to take still photographs of some of these objects, uh, for inclusion in the exhibit.
Maliczowski
Sure.
French
That would be wonderful. Thank you.
Dingle
No problem.
French
Do you—do you want anything else that we should talk about on the—the…
Orleman
No. the recording—I think we’re…
Dingle
We’re good?
Orleman
Yeah.
French
Okay. Very good. Thank you so…
One quick question, because we were talking about this before was the, um…
Maliczowski
Fireless cooker.
Dingle
Fireless cooker.
French
Fireless cooker, which is over there. But could you just tell us the story of the fireless…
Lee
My—my son, um—he, um, went online [clears throat] to find out more about it [clears throat]. And he said that in one of the—years ago, presidents had one in his[sic] house, but I don’t remember.
Dingle
But they—tell him where this one came from.
Lee
This one came from, um, Miss Bessie.
Dingle
Yup
Lee
And it—well, I already told you.
Maliczowski
Yeah, but they want to video it. They want to…
All
[laugh]
Lee
[laughs] I’m at it again. [clears throat] Well, in 1910, when my aunt came down, when she roomed in Miss Bessy’ house[?]. Her mother—[clears throat] excuse me. Her mother had a boarding house, and she did not cook on a Sunday, so she had the fireless cooker—that one. And, um, she would put the—the—it’s all there. Every piece. And the stones that had the thing to hook and put them in her fire. She had a wood stove. When they got hot, she’d put them in the fireless cooker. And then she would get her food hot on—in the pans, put them in, and close it up, and it would cook all night. And when she came home from church on Sunday, she’d open it up and she could serve it, but she didn’t have to cook. So that’s what—and my husband was fascinated with it. I said, “What do we do with it?” He says[sic], “I don’t care what we do with it. It’s a chest.” So it’s been in the living room in the old house. I told you we were in the French house years ago.
French
Yes.
Lee
And that’s where we raised the kids. And Mama was—was still here and my aunts. And, um, [clears throat] so, um—where was I?
Dingle
You had it in the old house and then you brought it here.
Lee
Yeah. I had it in the living room over there, and then I brought it here. So the fireless cooker’s always been in the living room. It’s been a piece to show people.
Dingle
But we never used it.
Lee
No. never used it.
Maliczowski
I plan on using it someday. Tell them about, um, how they used to use them during the war.
Lee
Oh, well, yeah. When Jimmy [Lee] researched it, he said they were used during the First World War—fireless cookers—mainly in tanks, so they could put the food in the cooker, and then they could go where they were going. And they would have the food.
Maliczowski
Mmhmm.
Lee
So, uh…
Maliczowski
We don’t know where they got this one, but we’re glad they did.
All
[laugh]
Maliczowski
So…
Lee
So, but that’s—and they had—had—in fact, I used to get the [inaudible] magazine. And somebody had put theirs in, only it was just a one, but they made one, and they made two, and ours is a three.
French
Great.
Lee
Three—whatever.
Dingle
Three pans [laughs].
Maliczowski
Three pots.
Dingle
Three pots.
Lee
Yes.Three pots
French
And you mentioned the French house. Where—what was the address of the French house?
Dingle
113 West Fifteenth Street.
French
Is it still there?
Dingle
It is. If you go up Oak Avenue—if you’re going up Oak, then you have to go around…
Maliczowski
You would run into the house.
Dingle
You would run into the house if you went straight up, but—yeah.
Maliczowski
My husband and I bought the house from Mom and Dad. And we lived there for quite a few years. We sold it when my son was about 13.
French
Oh, okay.
Maliczowski
And, it…
Lee
Just a minute.
Maliczowski
Yeah. Do you have the thing from when we sold it?
French
So this is one of the—the—the same French as French Ave[nue] and…
Maliczowski
Yeah. French Avenue was his brother.
French
Oh, okay.
Maliczowski
There was an A. J., um, Seth and A.J. French. And, um, the man who owned our house was the mayor. I think he was the second mayor.
Dingle
I think so.
Maliczowski
Mom might remember, but he was one of the first mayors of Sanford.
French
Oh, okay. Great. But this was the house that was built by…
Maliczowski
Right. And my grandmother was living here.
French
I see.
Maliczowski
And then when Mom and Dad—when they first got married, we lived over in Orlando and we moved over here when were seven and eight years old. And they found—that house was available so they bought that house. And we were there—the whole family—from when they bought it and then when I sold it, we were there for over 50 years.
French
Great. Wow. So, uh, this is great. I think, Andrew [Orleman], we can, uh—we’ll wrap up the…
Maliczowski
Oh, she’s got the, um—yeah. This isn’t what I was thinking but this is—it was on the Sanford our of home so…
French
Oh, okay. I went two years ago. I didn’t—okay.
Lee
That’s what it looks like now.
French
Okay.
Lee
But it looked like that [inaudible].
Maliczowski
Well Mom and Dad, when we were growing up it was [inaudible]…
Creative Sanford, Inc. is a non-profit organization created to manage Celery Soup community theater productions. The original idea for the Celery Soup project came from Jeanine Taylor, the owner of a folk-art gallery on First Street in Sanford, Florida. Their first production was Touch and Go, which took several years of planning. The play focused on how the people of Sanford overcame obstacles throughout their history. Some of these stories include the fall of Sanford's celery industry, the Freeze of 1894-1895, and the closing of Naval Air Station (NAS) Sanford in the 1960s. Richard Geer and Jules Corriere, partners from Community Performance International, were in charge of assessing oral histories, converting them into scenes for the play, and writing original songs. Director Geer also used an all-volunteer cast from the local community, many of which were not experienced actors.
During the process of producing the show, Creative Sanford decided to rehabilitate an historic building, the Princess Theater, which was located on 115 West First Street and owned by Stephen Tibstra. The Creative Sanford offices are housed in the Historic Sanford Welcome Center, located at 203 East First Street. As of December 2013, the Executive Board for Creative Sanford included President Brian Casey, Vice President Trish Thompson, Treasurer Linda Hollerbach, Secretary Dr. Annye Refoe, and Founder Jeanine Taylor. The Board of Directors consisted of Cheryl Deming, Juanita Roland, Wendy Wheaton, and Dr. Connie Lester, a professor of history at the University of Central Florida. Honorary Board Members included: Glenda Hood, former Florida Secretary of State and Mayor of Orlando; Valada Flewellyn, a local poet, author, and historian; and Jackie Jones, a local entertainer and arts advocate.
]]>Creative Sanford, Inc. is a non-profit organization created to manage Celery Soup community theater productions. The original idea for the Celery Soup project came from Jeanine Taylor, the owner of a folk-art gallery on First Street in Sanford, Florida. Their first production was Touch and Go, which took several years of planning. The play focused on how the people of Sanford overcame obstacles throughout their history. Some of these stories include the fall of Sanford's celery industry, the Freeze of 1894-1895, and the closing of Naval Air Station (NAS) Sanford in the 1960s. Richard Geer and Jules Corriere, partners from Community Performance International, were in charge of assessing oral histories, converting them into scenes for the play, and writing original songs. Director Geer also used an all-volunteer cast from the local community, many of which were not experienced actors.
During the process of producing the show, Creative Sanford decided to rehabilitate an historic building, the Princess Theater, which was located on 115 West First Street and owned by Stephen Tibstra. The Creative Sanford offices are housed in the Historic Sanford Welcome Center, located at 203 East First Street. As of December 2013, the Executive Board for Creative Sanford included President Brian Casey, Vice President Trish Thompson, Treasurer Linda Hollerbach, Secretary Dr. Annye Refoe, and Founder Jeanine Taylor. The Board of Directors consisted of Cheryl Deming, Juanita Roland, Wendy Wheaton, and Dr. Connie Lester, a professor of history at the University of Central Florida. Honorary Board Members included: Glenda Hood, former Florida Secretary of State and Mayor of Orlando; Valada Flewellyn, a local poet, author, and historian; and Jackie Jones, a local entertainer and arts advocate.
Reisz
My name is Autumn Reisz, and I’m here with Mark Miller, and we are asking the wonderful Trish [Thompson] a few questions today about Celery Soup and Creative Sanford[, Inc]. Um, if you just want to take a second and introduce yourself and we’ll get started on the questions.
Thompson
Okay. I’m Trish Thompson and I am, um, former president of Creative Sanford for four years now, and vice president, and theater manager. Um, when we do our interviews we tell where we are and what the atmosphere is. So I’ll say we’re in my office and, um, the atmosphere is quiet and we only have an air-conditioner going that could possibly interrupt.
Miller
Okay.
Thompson
So I’m ready when you are.
Miller
Alright.
Thompson
Start asking!
Miller
Well, thanks. Okay, um, what is Celery Soup?
Thompson
Okay. Celery Soup is Florida’s Folk Life Play. It’s a story that is comprised—a play, excuse me—that is comprised of story gathering which we have done, which is a lost art, and we, uh, get them from the citizens of Seminole County[, Florida] and hire a playwright. They put the stories together and that becomes Celery Soup: Florida’s Folk Life Play and we’ve done three performances, um, with the first one being Touch and Go, the second one being Made - Not Bought, and the third one being Remade - Not Bought. And, um, there—it went over so well, we’re—we’re just—we’re real happy with it and we’re already in—working with the playwright to get another one on the road for next year. So, uh, Creative Sanford is the umbrella organization. We are the producers of Celery Soup: Florida’s Folk Life Play.
Miller
Oh, very nice. Um, uh, what is the mission of Celery Soup?
Thompson
Uh, the mission of Creative Sanford—now you’ve got to know that we are the 501(c)(3) —Creative Sanford is. The, uh, actual production is Celery Soup—that’s the branding—is Celery Soup. It’s always Celery Soup. Every year the name of the play will change, but when they say, “What’s happening with Celery Soup: Florida’s Folk Life Play?” You know, then you tell ‘em whatever the new thing is that’s happening. Um, I’d have to read you our mission.
Miller
Oh, alright. That’s fine. No, that was excellent.
Thompson
Yeah.
Miller
Yeah. So, um, how did the idea for Celery Soup develop?
Thompson
Okay, the idea for, um, Celery Soup was, through our, um, person—the—the people that we knew in Colquitt, Georgia. And so Jeanine Taylor, our founder, went up there, met the people, saw the show and, um, and decided to bring it to Sanford when she moved her, uh, business here. And it was to help the economy and, uh, that was the first thought was that, you know, it was going to be an economic driver, bring people to Sanford, and of course help her business and other businesses in town. And she got the mayor and other people interested and they went up, saw the show, said, “Yes. This would be great for Sanford,” and that’s how it came to be in Sanford.
Then we spent three hard years with interviewing people and getting the community to understand what we do. We hired, uh, uh, Celery Soup—I mean, excuse me, Swamp Gravy—to come to Sanford and teach us how to do the interviews. Uh, they gave us the booklet that we use and, uh—just on a side note—uh, Freddie [Roman-Toro] who is—was our intern this spring, he rewrote it and updated it and got it where, um, it would fit in more with the RICHES [Regional Initiative for Collecting the History, Experiences, and Stories of Central Florida] Mosaic Interface that we’re gonna be using with UCF [University of Central Florida]. [phone rings]
Miller
Alright. How did you change the Swamp Gravy model to fit the needs of Sanford?
Thompson
You know, that’s really interesting, because they’re—was that your question?
Miller
No. That’s not.
Thompson
Alright.[laughs]
Reisz
But Mark [Miller] really liked it.
Thompson
Yes. Okay. Now when you’re interviewing, you know, you might not want the subject to know that you [laughs]—so you’re gonna learn along with me, um, the um—we been—what was the question again? I’m sorry.
Reisz
Um, how did you change the Swamp Gravy model…
Thompson
Oh, okay.
Reisz
To fit Sanford’s needs?
Thompson
Swamp Gravy’s model—2,000 people—very small town, very isolated—and they had to draw from churches and, uh, they went way outside the area to bring people in and they had to bus them in to, uh, to come to the play. And everyone in the community was involved in it, because, you know, 2,000 people and you’re puttin’ on a production with a hundred people, you know, that’s—that’s almost everybody in the town, at one point or another, has been in the play.
So for us, we’re in Central Florida. we compete with [Walt] Disney [World], the I[nterstate-4 corridor. um, we wanted to reach out to The Villages. that’s very difficult to reach out to The Villages, because they already have so much, um, entertainment and what have you that it’s right there at their fingertips. And they don’t come to Orlando very much. We found that out through the United Arts [of Central Florida], uh, president at that time, Margot Knight, that it was very tough to get The Villages, and so we’ve made so inroads into that and we do have one person who brings people in from there, but it’s, you know—that is, —that is harder.
For us, we’re more sophisticated. Um, the area there was—you could do just about anything for, you know, nothing, because there were no regulations and no, you know—the city didn’t make ‘em do this and that. So when we started, we had a lot of legal and financial, um, and city rules and regulations that we had to comply with. And I would suggest to anybody who is gonna to do something like this: do not cut corners on your legal and your—those kind of responsibilities in— in getting your, um, work-up with your city, so that your—you know, you’re not gonna get, quote, “a free ride,” but, you know, you’ll have a good working relationship with the city, if you comply with what they want done. So…
Reisz
Um, how has how has Creative Sanford and Celery Soup—how has it evolved from when you first started the program?
Thompson
Oh my goodness. It has really evolved. When we first started we wanted to put on a show, Okay? One production a year and we were gonna—oh, someone was gonna give us a building. We’ve gotten a whole big song and dance of, you know, where you were gonna put it on. Well, we couldn’t find any place that would allow us to put it on. And the one theater that was in town, it was: number one, 500 seats 450 to 500 seats. And it had the fourth wall, which of course we didn’t know anything about, but it—the fourth wall was an invisible wall between the audience and the cast. and so, um, the community theater, one of the things that they require is that it is community involved and, you know, so it’s, um—it’s theater in the three-quarter is what we have. We don’t—we ended up renting a space.
So number one, we have rent now and it’s not a free space. And so when we rented it, we had to sign a lease. And when we signed a lease, that changed—I mean, it was like the before and the after. The before lease and after lease. [laughs] Because then we became a theater, and the theater has to support itself. So you can’t have one play in the fall and the spring maybe—two plays—and maintain a theater. You know you got your rental. You got all your utilities you’ve got to pay. So we had to have other shows.
So we first started with a group that wanted to have a home and they were called “The Princess Players.” And so they put on five performances during the year and, you know, we produced them. And so we did make money through that and were able to pay the rent, but so now after three years, since 2010, we made another big leap in that we realize that the theater was as important as Celery Soup. If we don’t have the theater, we’re in the same boat as everybody else, with searchin’ for a place to put your thing on and it’s gonna cost you a tremendous amount of money to be that little person who’s begging for a place to have a show. And after being in the theater, we didn’t want to go back to being in a gymnasium or someplace like that.
So we co-op the theater and we have three organizations that co-op with us and they own the theater for those periods of time. So that helps pay the rent. Phew, there’s something here. So that pays, you know—that gets our rent paid.
So then as time goes on, in the next year or two, we will be able to do some of the other things in our mission that we are not able to do now and, uh, the—the quantity that we would like to do and that helps other organizations that don’t have money that give them a place to showcase their art. Um, we’ve done art openings. We’ve done, uh, concerts. we’ve done, uh, with the Humanities Council—with the Dreamers and Schemers and they’ve asked us to come back in 2014 and do it again—standing room only—uh, we do The Holocaust with the Holocaust and Interfaith Council. So we’re making all these organizations that are becoming partners with us—that they’re doin’ it this year, that maybe next year, you know. and we’ll find places for ‘em to rent the theater to them for a minimal amount of money—cover the expenses—and they’re able to put something on and we’re able to provide the community with different kind[sic] of art— all different types of art.
So we’re doin’ Celery Soup now. They’ll be doin’, uh, Sleeping Beauty and Grease, and the co-op people are doin’ these things. One of them is a school, so they do things through the summer. and then in August, I believe it is, we’re goin’ to do Spam-A-Lot. So it will be our first time to do, um—produce a Broadway show. And it’s a Tony Award-winning and that’s what we want to do. So we’d like to do Spam-A-Lot one year and whatever the next one, as soon as the rights open up. We want to do the most recent, like I believe next year Wicked, off-Broadway—you know, from Broadway—will be open.
So this is a goal that we want to bring quality entertainment that people can afford to go to Wash—New York [City, New York] or Washington[, D.C.] or wherever. They can see really quality work, right here in Seminole County. They don’t have to go to Orlando. They don’t have to go to the arena, you know, and all that kinda thing.
Miller
Excellent. Um, so how do you collect the stories for the plays?
Thompson
Okay. Uh, we advertised. We had the Swamp Gravy Institute come down and we had a whole group of people come in and learn how to do the interviews. and then they’d ask their friends, “Can I interview you?” So it started out friends of the people who are to interview and moved out from there. We went, um, Serenity Towers, which at that time was called Bram Towers, and we did practice interviews with the older ladies and gentlemen and—and, uh, the—it was kind of a learning experience for everyone. And then we also, um, then put ads in the paper.
And when we first got started we did a thing called, uh, Talks from the Stalks, is what we called it—like a stalk of celery. And, uh, the newspaper[1] was nice enough that we would put in little excerpts from interviews that we’d done. And so they’d do a little blurb—we’d hopefully have a picture of the person that spoke—and then a little piece out of their story. And then it would be the quote advertisement call to tell your story. So that’s how— that’s how we got started, with just grass-roots, asking your friends, and moving out into the community.
And the most difficult part was being accepted by the black community, because there was a lot of, um, [sighs] negativity in both directions, in that, um, the black community was told that we were exploiting them by some people, who, for some reason didn’t understand what we were doin’. There’s a fly in here. Um, and then there was some on the other side that didn’t know how to relate to the black community. So it was a give-and-take and over the last six years.
This year we were invited to Hopper Academy. Um, this was the first year we had been so lucky to have two reunions” The Hopper [Academy] and then the Crooms Academy [of Information Technology] we’re going to do in December. So that’s the, that’s a real plus for us to be able to have made the inroads into the black community—that they trust us.
And, uh, if you know anything about Sanford, we’ve just gone through an awful trial[2] that brought up a lot of really bad memories from a lot of people—black and white. And, uh, it’s just, uh— it’s just a miracle that we’re such a good community that we overcame the outside pressures and didn’t succumb to anything that they wanted to [laughs]—they wanted us to have a riot or something. I don’t know what the media wanted, but, uh, they didn’t get it, because we’re not that kind of a town. We’re a good town. We’re—we’re working together.
And I think we have helped over the last six years to help the community realize that, you know, all that outside stuff that made ‘em appreciate that we really are a closely knit community, much closer than was realized and yet there’s still a lot of—a lot of energy and a lot of negativity that—that is like post-traumatic stress disorder. You know, it’s—you think of the worst thing that ever happened you think—you in your life. It flashes [snaps] to you immediately. You know exactly was the worst thing in your mind that ever happened to you. And that may be, this—this—this trial just triggered. That throwback to that worst feeling of inadequacy and—and negativity that they ever had. So, you know, we—we have to appreciate that and realize it.
And I’ve talked to people who have said, “Oh, why don’t they just get over it?” And I say, “What’s the worst thing that ever happened to you?” “Oh, that I lost my child,” or, you know—I mean that’s horrific. And I say, “Well, get over it.” Whoa, did they get mad at me? But, I say, you know, you’ve got to understand—and it was somebody that wanted to interview, but they didn’t have the empathy or the sympathy or the—the feelings that were needed to be an interviewer in this organization. So, when you’re doin’ this, I’d say to anybody: be sure that the people who are interviewers have an open mind and/or can keep their feelings under—you know, under the radar—under the cover.
Miller
Well, that brings up a question of when you’re asking the stories, what sort of themes—you ask for themes? Or how do you go about…
Thompson
Well, we’re…
Miller
Pitching the story.
Thompson
We started with a theme that was, uh, perseverance. And this was in 2010, and so our first story was about, uh, how Sanford and the community had overcome all sorts of natural, um, disasters. We had floods, and we had, uh, fires, and we had—the weather froze—and, I mean, uh, the weather was very cold and the fruit and vegetables and the trees froze. You know, so it changed the whole economy of things. The, uh, Navy left Sanford. Big, big, big, big problem. and Sanford’s overcome and actually gotten better from all the different changes that have happened. So that was what—it was perseverance, and we used as a sub thing, openin’ a can of worms [laughs]. So we—we just—“So what is,” you know, “What were you mad about? What did you not like? What did—what did ya get over on somebody?” You know, we had all kinds of questions that we tried to pull out of people that were deeper than just—“Who are you? Where did— where did you go to school and what do you do? “
Miller
Well, you did something like, uh, what you’re, um, talking about, perseverance and…
Thompson
Mmhmm.
Miller
You know, can of worms. How do you integrate that into the play?
Thompson
Well, that is what you have your playwright for. Now we’re, uh, setting up now and working with UCF with this, um—we have, um—May, um—what do ya call ‘em? With, uh, the keyword—keywords. So it might be perseverance. It might be love. It might be hate. it might be alligators or animals, or, you know—so, you’ll have keywords and the, um—um, the—the writers can key in that word, and then up comes the transcription from the play of that—of that—that might fit that story—may might fit that thing.
So, uh, next year’s going to be a comedy. and so we’re, you know—we’re gonna have a theme that’s going to be outta—we don’t know yet—outta, uh—that hadn’t been decided. Uh, that’s how you do it is you decide on your theme and you go to your playwright and say, “I want you to write about this theme and here are your keywords and you can go to all these different” —so maybe when we do an interview—the interview usually lasts an hour and a half, um—in that hour and a half, you might get 10 good stories or 10 stories, you know. It depends on how fast they talk or, you know, what—what you could pull out of ‘em. Some of ‘em in an hour you won’t get one that’s worth anything. But, uh, it might be able to use in backgrounds somewhere. And some of ‘em you could use every single story in, you know—that they tell. They’re all just—oh my gosh. This is great.
And we have several of those families that have done that and one is Uncle Dieter and one is Mr. [Elmer] Baggs. Both of them have just fabulous stories that they tell and we’ve used them in all of our productions. We’ve used stories from them and we go back, like you said—we go back to them to, you know, harvest more stories from them and ask different questions and—you know. Some of ‘em are just so funny. You know, that you, you forget that you’ve to get in to some of these power depth things too.
Reisz
Have you encountered any challenges working with a playwright that may or may not be from the Sanford area? is there any challenge to that?
Thompson
We—yes. We have had that challenge. Um, the one that the professional group that we used, they came and taught us a lot, and they were not from our area. So they had to do a lot of historical research at the libraries and, um, the historic society, so they got a lot of input there. Though it was very good for them, but also they would say things that we would say, uh, “Stop. We can’t use that. We—this—it’s not correct.” It’s, you know—or it’s too—it’s still too politically, um, explosive. That—that we don’t want to bring that to our town at this point. Later we’ll—we’ll delve into that, but right now we can’t do that.
And, uh, and one of ‘em is about—and it—it—it’s about, uh, ah, the [Mayfair] Country Club. And the—the playwright wanted to put that in there and I said, “We cannot put this in there. They are going to court. This is a lawsuit. It has not been [laughs]—you know, we can’t put something that’s an ongoing thing that maybe somebody would be a juror on that trial that saw our view of this. No, no, no, no, no. we can’t do that.” So it’s a perfect—it’s a perfect example of— of havin’ to help, you know, keep things in the right frame that we want to.
Reisz
Have you, um, always used, uh, a playwright to produce your plays and a professional director and have you guys done any of that on your own?
Thompson
We’re in the process now of doing that and we hired—we’ve hired, um, people who have professional—have had professional experience, but are for—we only use the professionals the first time, ‘cause that was like $125,000 and so we had to raise money for a long time to—to get that together. And that was the year that we signed the contract with the theater. So, you know, all of this and financial part of it all mixes together.
And you realize, once you start this, you are a theater. You know, you’re not just—unless you’re going to keep it on a low key, not very large, but if you want to go big, you’re going to have to be a theater. And we want to go big. We’ve—want to go to the [John F.] Kennedy Center [for Performing Arts] in—in, Washington. We’re already set to be at the Dr. Phillips Performing Arts Center. We’re working with Central Florida, uh, uh, Community Arts and they’re gonna do a Christmas that’s gonna be the same show, or similar to the same show, that they put on at Christmas at Disney. So it’s the candlelight, uh, service that you pay 80-90 dollars for and you’ll pay 10-20-15, you know, for this show here. Because we want community to be able to see what we’re doing. And, and, uh, that is—that’s part of our mission, to bring the community together.
Reisz
Um, so the professional—that’s the direction that you guys are going to go in going forward is using, uh, not necessarily, um, director per se, but definitely a professional playwright and things like that? you going to keep that?
Thompson
Well, no. we’ve brought the community on the playwright too. As a matter of fact, um, even I helped write [laughs] a little bit of the play that we’re doing right now. So I can’t call myself—I call myself an editor, not a playwright.
Miller
Well, that was one of the questions, that, um, regarding—do you have any employees?
Thompson
No. we’re—not yet.
Miller
You were talking about having some professionals...
Thompson
Uh uh.
Miller
So, um, you hire people as you need them? Or…
Thompson
The way they—yes. and the way that works, um, is that they would get a stipend. Um, you would be for, um, a director, you might pay 750-1000 dollars, something like that. It’s not big money. And they have to work for six or eight weeks before the show to get it ready. I mean, that’s a lot of work for, you know, that kind of money.
Uh, but a lot of community theater only pays the music director. Everybody else is volunteer. And we have thousands and thousands hours of volunteer hours, because we have no paid staff. We do have some[sic] paid artist, but not any paid staff. And nobody and—none of the actors are paid.
Miller
So you draw your expertise from the community also?
Thompson
Right. and that is a lucky thing that we have. That we have so much theater and, um, entertainment in Central Florida, and people who want to do theater. And they’re tied into day to day jobs that, um, you know, stifle their creative—and, and they do it for free. They do it for the love of theater.
Which I didn’t understand. I’m a businessperson. I came out of, you know, owning my own business for many, many years and my husbands a, uh, CPA [Certified Public Account] and ran an insurance company. And, oh my gosh. You know, everything is the bottom line kiddo [laughs]. So that’s kinda where I fit in. And t’s a little difficult for me to learn and having to learn. And most of the other people on the [Executive] Board are businesspeople. And they—it’s—it’s—it’s somethin’ to learn how to do this.
Miller
Well, what—you brought up the board. What role does that—the board play?
Thompson
Uh, the board makes the decisions on where the money goes, and—and where the fundraisers and, um—we do all the—all the grunt work that has to be done. We do the marketing. We do the, uh, advertising. We do the, uh, um—um, the Celery Ball, which is our main fundraiser.
We reach out to all community to—to get the word out and speak to groups and make connections wherever we can with the politicians, in, uh, um—you know, just have to reach out to every single facet. And it’s—it’s—it’s a miracle. It’s wonderful. It is wonderful. And I love working this class that’s a very diverse class, with older, younger, men, women. It’s great. You know, I going to learn so much from you all [nods].
Reisz
How, um, how is—how is Creative Sanford and Celery Soup, how have—how have you been successful in achieving your goals?
Thompson
Well, we’ve put on three shows. Yes. We’ve brought in community who have done playwright—playwriting—who have done music, who have done directing, that are from the community, that were paid a small stip—small stipend. And, um, you know, this is—this is the goal. is to bring the community together. We’ve brought people together who would have never have met.
Um, one lady who’s a very prominent, uh, poet, and she was in our show and she helped write a little bit of it. And, um, she was afraid of one the—of one of the people in the show. It was a young black guy and she was an older black lady, but she wasn’t raised in any of the—so she had a whole generational plus economic—there wasn’t a reason to be afraid of this young person. But she was—she was fearful. And so she really learned. And the—and the young person learned too. How to be more respectful and so that’s—that’s a goal is—you know, I think people call it bullying and all of that, but it’s really—it’s learning how to love each other and work with each other, and um, and blend into to, uh, international, you know, family.
Reisz
You mentioned earlier that there was a couple of things that, um, you hadn’t achieved. You know, you want to do more outreach with other community groups and things like that?
Thompson
Right.
Reisz
Is there anything else you—that Creative Sanford would like to do, but you haven’t been able to do yet?
Thompson
Oh, yes. We’d like to, um—we’d like to have a performing arts center. and we have talked to, uh, Congressman [John L.] Mica about that. um, preliminary, stages, of maybe having an arts council—not an arts council. We have the Seminole Cultural Arts Council, but um, to work with them with Creative Sanford to have our theater in a building, to have uh, um, uh, galleries in the theater, and have gift shops, and have, uh, study areas, and training areas, and studios. I mean, we’ve got a big group of ideas and that would—that would involve all the arts. And that’s one of the things that, um, is real—real difficult to get off the ground on no money. So that’s where you’re going to look for federal grants and that’s where you need your politicians to help you. And Seminole Cultural Arts Council and ourselves are working together to, uh, work with Congressman Mica and—and see if we can get one in Seminole County. You know, there’s a lot people, there’s a lot of money in Seminole County. It’s all going south. So we want to bring some of it back to Seminole County and let them realize that, not only are we a bedroom place, but also a great place to—to just enjoy life and make your whole—whole area more livable.
Reisz
Um, why is it important—in particular in Sanford, of course—but why is it important that these plays are produced by the community for the community?
Thompson
Well, that goes right back to, um, people learning each other, meeting each other, uh, getting together, and becoming friends and, um, meshing as a team. And they go out when—when we have done this, um, the group says, “Hey, I know a place that we need to go.” So emails go back and then we just get together, we go out, maybe put on a performance or—not a whole show—but do vignettes, maybe do a little bit of Uncle Dieter maybe do a little bit of, um, Elmer Bags. Just, you know, somethin’ funny or, er, poignant, or somethin’ like that.
We’ve done one called Generations,where the woman tells the story of how her family came from Africa and, you know, where they landed, and you know, how her history came about, and now she’s the last one in her line. And she says—at the end, she says, “Who will remember me? Will you?” And it just—oh, it just gives me cold chills right now. It’s just—it just tells people—opens their eyes and minds and hearts to, you know, what’s going on in the rest of world and how other people are feeling and, um, we always want to do more of that.
Reisz
Uh, you had mentioned earlier that—that the—that Creative Sanford and Celery Soup in particular had been really well received by the community?
Thompson
Yes.
Reisz
Um, how have you integrated community feedback into your projects and the things that you’re doing, besides just the interviews?
Thompson
Well, that is—that is one of the big things that we do. When we have the play and getting it ready, okay? We have a day, that we have—invite all the community to come to the theater and we do a run through of the play. And if they have feedback, “Oh that—that story wasn’t there. That story is over on Eleventh Street.” “Oh, this is wrong,” or “I don’t like this,” or, oh—they don’t laugh or, you know, they think something’s offensive. And we take that all into consideration. We’re very much attuned to what—it’s like what we tell the playwrights, sometimes we say, “Hey. Something we already know politically you can’t do that. They’re already in a—they’re already in a lawsuit.” But it is the same thing with other peoples’ feelings. And, um, we had one lady who got up and said she loved this part and the other lady got up and said that, “This isn’t the way it was where I was.” And it was complete opposite, so it was like, “Okay. Well, we’ll tell this story here and let’s interview you and get your story for the next time.”
So it’s—you know, we’re going to tell our stories as much as we can, but we want to—we want to be fair to everybody, but that is what we do. That’s part of the community—that we learned from the professionals. It’s that you have—when you start your cast, you—you have a day that you talk about, um, being compassionate and—and working with your other cast members and all of that sort of thing. And, um, that kind the way it starts and then, you know, we get this real tight group going and people know you now.
For me, see, I am known as the “ticket lady,” because I was always down there working the tickets and, you know, all this. They didn’t know I was president. they didn’t care who I was. I was the ticket lady. That’s the one they saw every night. But now they’re seeing me in a completely different role, because I’m in the play. And I have just a small—I have three small parts, but, you know, one of ‘em is absolutely just as silly as all get out and so they’re seeing, “Oh, the ticket lady does something besides” [laughs], you know, “sell the tickets. She might have some other good things that she can do.” So they’re seeing me in a different light and I think we see everybody in a different light. That—that whatever they perceive themselves to be, we’re seeing them in a different, more human light.
Miller
Well you’ve been with the project from the beginning, um…
Thompson
Just about.
Miller
Well, what—what are your biggest surprises about this?
Thompson
Oh, all of it. All of it. I had no idea how much work it was gonna be, how much fun it was gonna be, how enlightening it was gonna be. It’s just been—it’s just—it’s been like [sighs] renewed youth of somethin’. You know, you’ve thought, Oh, well, my identity is a restaurant owner. This—I’m the Rib Ranch, you know. Well then you retire and I got all involved in this and—and, uh, now I feel like, “Well, hey. This, this is rejuvenated me.” and, you know, put your brain in gear again and you have all these new goals, because I’d already completed all my goals. I was the best restaurant that sold barbeque in Seminole County and, you know, where do you go from there? So this was a new goal and set new things. So age never matters. Grandma Moses became famous in her 80s, so maybe I’ll become famous in my 70s [laughs].
Miller
Ah, what are some of the challenges in creating and maintaining a project like Celery Soup?
Thompso
Financial. There you go. That’s the bottom line. That’s the big problem, is getting’ the money. Yup.
Miller
Well, um, you mentioned fundraisers.
Thompson
Mmhmm.
Miller
And you have a Celery Ball.
Thompson
Right.
Miller
Do you want to describe that a little bit and some of the other fundraisers?
Thompson
Okay. What we’ve done—and, of course, this has evolved too. When we first started we had the Celery Ball, we had a king and queen. And the king and queen raised money—the king and queen candidates raised money—and, um, the first year we raised over $30,000. The second year about $30,000. The third year about $25,000. And the fourth year $10,000. Okay. economy. There you go. The economy’s going down, people didn’t have money to do all this, so that next year it was—we had a lot of silent auctions. We did not have, and we’re not having this year, a king and queen.
So we feel like—okay. We’ve kind of burned that out. it’s got a life of about four years and then you’ve got to go to something else. So we’ve moved the play—we’ve moved it to a different location. It’s gonna be a The Great Gatsby themed, so it’s gonna to be ‘20s-‘30s. Gonna be a lotta fun and, uh, um—and we have silent auction and trips and things like that, that we’re gonna be putting out to—to raise money instead of having—it was real easy when you had kings and queens and they’re all out having fundraisers and, you know, they’re doing all the work and you’re raking in the money. But it doesn’t work that way. It doesn’t work that way for the whole thing.
Miller
Alright, um…
Reisz
[inaudible]
Miller
Yeah, uh, what are, um, some of your production costs? And in that the price of your tickets and stuff?
Thompson
Mmhmm. okay. We price our tickets at $15—well 20 and 18 at first—and then we moved it down to 15 and 12. And, ah—again, it’s to meet the mission of bringing things and the quality—best quality we can—to the community. And these are bad times. I don’t know how you guys are seeing it, but, you know, everybody is working one or two, you know—working extra jobs. Still not, you know, cuttin’ it with the way things are going with businesses, where they’re cutting people’s hours back. “Oh, we’re only going to give you 26 and we’re never gonna give you more than 32, so you can’t be a full-time employee, so we won’t have to pay you benefits.” Da, da, da, da, da.
So we look at all of that and, uh, we decided on our price, and because we’re not usin’ the professionals. We’re back—we give just the small stipend—we do a production, is about 10,000, mkay? Is what it costs us to put on a production. and a lot of it is borrowing from different places in the community. Oh, and now that we’re a co-op we can say, “Oh, do you have some lights we can borrow?” Whereas we may have had to spend 10,000 on lights the first year, which we did. We had to rent ‘em. That, you know, now we can get lights and—as a matter of fact, we just had two people who gave us lights just in the last week. So, you know, we’re getting the lights—we don’t still have as much lighting as we need, and that’s one of the things that we’ll get a grant to help us get lighting and sound equipment and, you know, these kinds of things that we need. But, um, yeah. that’s it. Financial.
Reisz
Um, much of what Celery Soup has been doing is preserving the history of and the stories of Sanford.
Thompson
Right.
Reisz
How are you preserving the legacy of Celery Soup and Creative Sanford itself?
Thompson
Well, we have two ways. Uh, Alicia [Clarke] at the, um, Sanford Museum has asked us for copies of everything. So they’re going to archive the beginnings and all of our—as time goes by, they’ll do it. And so I’m keeping double records of, you know, two pieces of paper and so we’ll keep one and give one to her. And of course, we’re expecting that a lot of our archiving is going to go up on RICHES, so we’ll have that as part of our archival process.
And we, um—you have to have a disaster program, you know, and so we have disaster programs and we have things backed up with—on the flash drives—or we have them backed up on secondary computers. We have, um, fireproof safes that we keep things in. and we keep things off, um—out of the office. I don’t—I can’t think of what the word is. but somewhere else that, um, we keep things—the financial things and the historic things—um, backed up. So that’s how we have to do it. And—and the things like this, I’m really happy that if anything happened to this little dress, um—this was the dress that was worn by the little two and a half year old little girl, who was in our very first production—Kalayla. and, um, so definitely want pictures of that. And that’s—that’s an archival thing. If this rotted, we wouldn’t have it. So…
Miller
Okay. um, how do you keep the community engaged in Celery Soup, uh, especially long-term?
Thompson
That’s a problem. You have to keep moving and especially when we have to look two ways: the economy and wearing yourself out, you know, with asking people over and over again for help. And, uh— so the engagement—we just try to broaden and not to go back to the same wells every time. That if there’s 54,000 people in this town, and if 2,000 people are helping us, we need to get to the next 2,000 and the next 2,000, and the next 2,000. And we’ve reached, um,—as a matter of fact, just last week we were given a check for $250 from an organization that had never helped us before. So here we are. We’re getting into that outer ring and so we’ll just, slowly but surely, we’re just gonna reach out all through the whole area and get some of these people.
Mercedes[-Benz] helped us and then they kind of backed—backed away with what they were doing and so we’re going to different places to make this thing work. And we’re on David Maus’ [Toyota’s] jumbo-tron out there, which we’ve never been on there before and so, you know, that’s a first for us. So we just keep moving ou.t and we’ve never had any kind of TV advertising or never had any TV that supported us, and so this year, uh—this 2014, we’re really gonna put a push on getting sponsors of, um, in kind or whatever we can get from the, uh, major stations. We’ve had radio. We’ve had, um, um, public and NCR[3] and public broadcasting, but we want to get more into the mainstream too.
Reisz
Um, I know that we are getting tight on time, so we have one last question that we’d like to ask you, before we release you.
Thompson
Okay. Mkay.
Reisz
Uh, but what advice would you give another community thinking about beginning a similar project?
Thompson
The advice that I would give them is to contact everybody that has ever done one that you can find and ask them the questions that you’re asking. How do you do it? How much did it cost? We had a group that came in and asked us those questions and we answered them and, uh, and it was very interesting. We had—they came down and visited us and it was a very interesting time.
But, um, whatever the people tell you it’s going to cost, figure it’s going to cost at least 50 percent or a third to 50 percent more, okay? It’s much more expensive than you think it’s gonna be. Uh, some people think, “Oh, well everything be given to us.” and that’s what we were told” Oh, people would just reach out to you and they’re gonna give you this and they’re gonna give—let me tell ya. in a big market like this, they don’t do that. Maybe in very small towns, yes. You can get that kind of immediate help, but in a big, big area like we’re in it’s not the same process. And that’s where we differ with Swamp Gravy too, in that, you know, we have a very different financial field back and forth there.
So, yeah. It’s, um— it is—it’s mainly financial, legal. Be sure if you write contracts, if you go with professionals that, you know, you get a good tight that you’re protected and safe. And we went to an entertainment attorney and had her look over the contract and make changes and things to protect us a little bit better. So those are the things that you’ve got to have.
Reisz
Well thank you very, very much. We greatly appreciate it. Um, we really appreciate it. And then we’ll probably come up with some other questions. If you think we missed anything, let us know. We’d be happy to ask about it.
Thompson
[laughs] Okay.
Miller
And we…
Fedorka
This is Drew Fedorka. Uh, we are at the [UCF] Public History Center in Sanford, Florida. It is Saturday, November 16th, 2013. Do you just want to introduce yourself for the camera?
Ford
I’m Nancy Ford, and, um—actually, I’m Nancy Harris Ford. My maiden name is Harris. I grew up here in Sanford and left. Was gone about 36 years and came back.
Fedorka
Okay, and when did you leave Sanford?
Ford
I left Sanford in 1973, about a year after I graduated from Seminole High School.
Fedorka
Okay, and what brought you back to Sanford?
Ford
Uh, a combination of things. One is home. And, in 2008, when the economy did what it did, I found myself unemployed, and I needed to make some choices. So I chose to come home, where I had a support system.
Fedorka
Okay, um, now did you have any interest in Sanford’s history before getting involved with Celery Soup and Creative Sanford[, Inc.]?
Ford
Not really, because I am Sanford’s history. [laughs] You know, a lot of the things they do in Creative Sanford[, Inc.] in the shows that they write, I remember. So I’m not just learning them. I am learning new facts about these things, But a lot of these stories, they’re my stories—some of them. And I remember these things.
Fedorka
Right so…
Ford
It’s interesting that what you call “history,” I call “my life.”
Fedorka
Right. Of course. Yeah. Okay. So what got you interested in Creative Sanford?
Ford
Well, when I came back, my sister—my sisters knew that I was interested in acting and performing, because I had done it when I was in Memphis[, Tennessee]. And she saw an advertisement for the show—for Touch and Go—and asked me if I would like to go. And so we went to see it, and I thought it was so interesting, so I said, “Well I think I’ll audition the next time around.” So the next time around, I auditioned and I really enjoyed it, so I’ve auditioned every time since.
Fedorka
Okay, great. Um, so you play a number of different characters in Remade - Not Bought. Do you want to go through some of the different characters?
Ford
[laughs] It was interesting. I played, um, Tasha in the continuity scene—is who’s the mother of one of the young ladies. And that role—the continuity scenes were designed to link the stories together so that they made sense. And, um, I also played Tasha’s mother in one of the scenes, remembering when the, uh, I guess the Woolworth’s counter, one of those restaurants which I actually remember when we used to go to the back window to get the food at the restaurants. We couldn’t go in and sit down. I remember that. So I played that character. And then I played Dr. Starke’s in another scene. And, uh, the Tasha character just kind of weaves through most of the show.
Fedorka
So it’s interesting that you said a lot of these things have been touched on your own personal life that you experienced. What role do you think community theater plays and community understanding on history in remembering history?
Ford
Well, I think that it’s really important, because, if we don’t remember our past, especially the things that aren’t very pleasant, then we’re doomed to repeat it. Now, I have a son who’s 20, and we would get tired of me telling him sometimes that, when he wanted these shoes and these clothes that cost so much money, and I would tell him, “Well, you know, when I was growing up, my mama bought our clothes and hoped they’re fit. And most of the time, bought them too large, because we couldn’t try them on and she couldn’t take them back. Because we were colored.”
So, you know, especially for European Americans, we know a lot of your history, because we were exposed to it on commercials and television and stuff like that. But our history was kind of downplayed. And even among ourselves, we don’t realize sometimes the richness. When I say “ourselves” —the African-American community. Sometimes we don’t understand or really, fully realize the richness of our history. And the importance that certain things play. It was just kinda the way we lived.
Fedorka
Right, and—so some of these scenes are dealing with some of the, um, more troubling or challenging aspects of Sanford’s history. Um, in what ways, um—let me think how to phrase it. And, does it—does it change the memory of these experiences at all in some of these scenes?
Ford
It—it doesn’t change the memory. It changes the meaning. Uh, for example, the butterfly scene. I remember school integration. So when I’m going through that, I remember. And people say that I play that scene and I seem so—it seems so real, because I really was angry about school integration. [clears throat] Although, for me, it was the opposite. It was me going to the “white” school, so to speak, not the other way around, as it was in the butterfly scene. But I didn’t want to be there. I had no choice. I got thrown into an environment that I feel changed my life in a way that was not for the best.
When I was at Crooms [High School], I was a—an honors student. I was in the National Honors Society. I was on track to be Val of Sal. And when I went to Seminole [High School], I did not get the same attention that I got at Crooms. Because the curriculum was so different, and the books were so different, because we got hand me down books at Crooms. Things were so different that I was not academically prepared. And even though I did well, I was in and out of the Honors Society at Seminole. And I didn’t go to college. And I found out later about the, uh, work-studies. And I wasn’t counseled, so I didn’t know. I didn’t know what was available to me, and I didn’t graduate college until I was 50. And I think a lot of that had to do with the fact that I got shoved into an environment where I wasn’t welcomed. I didn’t’ feel welcomed.
Fedorka
It seemed that watching Remade - Not Bought, there’s a very specific choice of scenes. The types of topics that we’re touched on. I think of this really cool scene, I think of the butterfly scene, which is obviously one of the main highlights of the show. Um, the one of the restaurant that you just explained. What was the decision-making process, which scenes to highlight?
Ford
Well, I wasn’t really involved in that, so—I wasn’t involved in choosing which scenes went into the play. You have to talk to the playwrights about that.
Fedorka
Right. Okay. Uh, do you feel like there’s any—obviously, I mean, there’s—some of these scenes are kind of arbitrary in the way that—in the topics that they—in the—obviously the big comment that they’re trying to reconcile is Sanford’s history of racial tensions. And they’ve picked little snapshots to touch on. Do you think there’s any that would have been more effective to include?
Ford
Well, I don’t know about effective, because I think they scenes they included were very effective. Um, there’s so many from which to choose. And I think that the ones that they chose show different aspects of the racial tension, like the pool scene.
I don’t know how to swim. I never learned. Uh, there were two pools in Sanford. The white pool, we weren’t allowed to go to. The black pool was always so crowded when it was open that you couldn’t swim in there if you tried.
And the beach? Well, there were no lifeguards at the beach we were allowed to go. We’d go to New Smyrna Beach. And our parents were afraid to put us in the water because they both, you know, fearful for our safety. And every summer, kids drowned. Every summer. So our parents were very fearful of that.
So those kinds of things, you know, were really meaningful. There’s, um, the only thing—and I have spoken to them about this—it seems that in every one of these plays, I play the angry black woman [laughs]. Um, but we had some good times in the African-American community as well. And sometimes I’d like to see that highlighted. You know, like we had pic—church picnics, and things like that. And because they highlight some things that have nothing to do with racial tension with the white characters.
But almost all the scenes that involve African Americans have some type of racial overtone. Even the Starke scene. Even though it wasn’t, you know, an uncomfortable thing, but even that had racial overtones and, you know, it’s—there were other things that we did [laughs], you know, that had nothing to do with race—that had nothing to do with white people either. But, you know, a lot of the scenes they have with whites have nothing to do with black people.
Fedorka
Right. What—do you see what Creative Sanford does—what Celery Soup does especially—with plays like Remade - Not Bought—do you see what they’re doing as history or is it something different?
Ford
It’s both. It’s history with creative license, because it’s entertainment. And I think it’s a good way to get a conversation going. Because when people go and they see these shows, then invariably, even participating, I learned things, and I go out and do research. Like, Dr. Starke was my doctor. Dr. Starke brought me into the world, you know, when I was born. He was the doctor who brought me here. He was my doctor growing up. But there were things that I didn’t know about him, because, you know, why would I want to go study about Dr. Starke? But now in retrospect, I went out on the Internet and did research, because I do want to know. You know, so there are—and almost everybody that I speak with, after they’ve seen the show, they say “I didn’t know this” or “I didn’t know that.” So yeah, it’s a good way to get a conversation started.
Fedorka
And it’s interesting that you mention Dr. Starke, because he is featured predominantly throughout the play. Um, in what ways do you think he was a good choice to highlight as a central example of some of the message we get across?
Ford
Well, one thing is that he was biracial, you know? And uh, and that’s one way—one of the reasons that he was able to do some of the things that he did, because he was fair. His skin was fair, his hair was wavy. But he was a very quiet man—a soft-spoken man. But, like they say in the play, he was a good man. And I remember going to him, up to my teenage years, you know—until I left here, he was my doctor—[laughs] I don’t ever remember paying him. I imagine my mother paid him. I don’t know whether she paid him or not. But it never occurred to me that he wasn’t getting paid. That’s not something that kids think about.
You know, and I know that I went to him once for something and he said, “Well tell Bernice such and such and such.” that was my mom’s name. So he knew his patients. It’s not like now. You go to the doctor and they review your chart to remember who you are. You know, they make notes in their charts so that they can have conversation with you. But if I walked into his office, he knew me. He knew my name. He knew my mother’s name. He knew my grandparents. It was very different.
And I didn’t realize—well, I didn’t think about the fact that he saw white people too. You know, I don’t ever remember seeing white people in his office. I imagine they were there, but you know, that wasn’t something that I thought about, because if he saw white people it was, because they couldn’t afford to pay the white doctor. And that was not uncommon in the black community, because we didn’t carry around a lot of the baggage it seems that a lot of the white people did.
Fedorka
What are some of the memories you have of Dr. Starke of your childhood?
Ford
Well, I remember one time that, uh—I didn’t like shots. I was actually very afraid of shots and I needed to get a shot. And there was a booster shot in the buttocks, and Dr. Starke had me stand at the window and look out the window, and he was talking to me. I don’t remember what he was talking to me about. I also don’t remember getting the shot. Just—it was just so much like the scene in the play. And when I saw that, I was like, “You know, he really was like that.” That was not an exaggeration.
Fedorka
What role do you think the play has in linking the memory of Sanford and Sanford in the 20th century to people like Dr. Starke?
Ford
Well, I think especially for a lot of the kids, it helps—helps you to know your history. History is important. Even though I didn’t realize it when I was young, because I did not like history in school. Didn’t like it at all. And now, I’m more interested in it, because I can see how—what they call progress. You know, the continuity of events and how it progressed from here to here and the next step. You know, um, Sanford was known as “The Celery City.” Well, I could remember what that smells like. Interestingly enough, because my gather ran a celery crew. So I used to play on the bus—on his bus. and it is a very distinct smell. And I remember what it smells like. And I also remember what it smelled like when those celery fills were rotting, cause, you know, Celery Avenue is named Celery Avenue for a reason. There weren’t houses down there when I was growing up. Those were celery fields. And so people don’t know why that street is named Celery Avenue. And there’s Celery Key and there’s Celery something else, but those are housing developments now. But they used to be celery fields.
Fedorka
And to bring you back to Dr. Starke. Dr. Starke’s office was near Celery Avenue.
Ford
Well, it’s on the corner of 11th Street and Sanford Avenue. So Celery Avenue is what 13th Street kinda turns into after it makes that little cattycorner. So yeah, it’s pretty close. And we used to walk. You used to walk everywhere. Nowadays, we hardly think about walking these days.
Fedorka
Would you say Dr. Starke was well-known in the community?
Ford
[laughs] I’d say that’s an understatement.
Fedorka
Okay. And…
Ford
He was the black doctor. So all the black folks went to him. You know, because we didn’t—the white doctors wouldn’t see us. But that doesn’t mean he wasn’t a good doctor. He was probably one the best doctors in town, but we didn’t realize that, because he was our doctor. He was the only doctor we knew.
Fedorka
And was he known—well-known at the time, at least in Sanford, for his role in sort of crossing—crossing that color barrier by obviously, uh, white patients coming to see him? Was that well-known in the community?
Ford
Well [coughs], they may—[coughs] excuse me. It may have been by adults, but I was a child, so that wasn’t something that I thought about, you know.
Fedorka
Right.
Ford
So, you know, he—I know that he was a prominent figure. Everybody knew him. And Dr. Ringland[1] too. He wasn’t in the play, but Dr. Ringland was the dentist—the dentist—the black dentist. And they shared an office. They shared an office space. Because when you went to the doctor and you went to the dentist, you went to the same building.
Fedorka
Okay to—just a couple of last questions to bring it back to Remade - Not Bought. You said that one of the main role of, um, productions like that is just to get a conversation started. What types of messages do you hope that got across from a production like Remade - Not Bought?
Ford
Well, I would—I would hope that some healing happens. Because there’s a lot of bitterness still, um, in the community among both black and whites. There’s anger. There, uh—we’ve come a long way, but we still have a ways to go. A lot of blacks are bitter and angry, because we feel—when I say “we,” I mean some blacks and whites. I don’t mean all of any group. But many of us, uh, as a people feel that we’ve struggled.
And I know personally in my own life—because my name is Nancy, I got into doors that I wouldn’t have gotten into if my name had been something else. But when I walked through the door, say for an interview, I could see the countenance of the interviewer’s face change, because I was not what they expected. My—my maiden name is Harris. My name is Nancy Harris. I’m well-spoken. I’m articulate. When you speak with me on the phone, you don’t necessarily know that I’m an African American, but when I walk through the door, it’s obvious. And that hurts. And every time that happens, it hurts. So there’s[sic] scars there. There’s[sic] deep scars and they need heeling.
[coughs] By the same token [coughs]—excuse me—I went through affirmative action, where a lot of white people felt left out. And I had—I had work as a result of affirmative action—a pretty good job. I was a machinist. And, in that shop—and I was in Rochester, New York, where they thought things were better—and the white guys, they would yell things at me across the shop. And tell me that I was taking the food out of some guy’s family’s mouth, because I shouldn’t be there, because I’m black and female.
So we have these kinds of conversations. It gives the opportunity to know that we’re all human. All the parts, the same ways. The human way. And that we all have feelings, and they should be honored. And that we all have rich culture and tradition. And I think it’s important for us to learn about each other’s culture more and more, so that we can appreciate our differences and move forward. Because, in order to hold a person down, you have to stay down there with them. And it’s important for us all to rise.
Fedorka
Um, do you think Celery Soup and Remade - Not Bought, um— it[sic] puts a very positive spin on a lot of these memories and do—do you think there’s any—do you think it’s does it effectively with this healing process?
Ford
Um, yes. I think it does. I think anytime we address these things head-on, that it’s effective. It may not always feel good, but it’s like a shot. Doesn’t feel good when you get it, but what it does is work. The benefit feels good.
Fedorka
Okay. Uh, thank you very much for your help. If you—do you have anything you want to say about Celery Soup or the just importance of it, he importance of community theater, the importance of approaching community’s history in this manner?
Ford
Well, I’d just like to say that I’m very happy that this project exists—that Creative Sanford exists. And that Creative Sanford sees the benefit of doing this work. And I hope that people will support it. You know, theatre is not well-supported in general, and in particular, community theatre. We have a lot of good, um—good actors and actresses in community theatre.
One of the things that I love about Celery Soup is that everyone who auditions gets cast. And even though I had experience coming into it, it’s a wonderful opportunity for people who have never been on a stage before to get out there and see if they like it and have an opportunity to—to go someplace, because this is the way that—there are a lot of people that we see on television and on the big screen, who got their start in community theater. It’s important and I do think it should be valued, and people should support it.
Fedorka
Well, thank you very much…
Ford
Thank you.
Fedorka
For all your thoughts.
[1] Correction: Dr. Edward D. Strickland.