1 100 4 https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka/files/original/9f972105dd19c9b193d7fb620849cd11.pdf a1e710425765a8ad20fc572b4c1f4568 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title Sumner Hutcheson III Collection Alternative Title Sumner Hutcheson Collection Subject Miami-Dade County (Fla.) Miami (Fla.) Description A collection of materials from Sumner Hutcheson III, who was a Senior Executive manager with the American Red Cross for over 30 years, a senior administrator at three universities, and Chair of the Peace and Justice Institute. Creator Hutcheson III, Sumner Publisher <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">RICHES</a> Accrual Method Donation Item Creation Mediator History Teacher Rights Holder <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">RICHES</a> Curator Cravero, Geoffrey Digital Collection <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">RICHES MI</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title Oral Memoirs of Sumner Hutcheson III Alternative Title Oral History, Sumner Hutcheson III Subject American Red Cross Miami-Dade County (Fla.) Miami (Fla.) Bethune-Cookman College (Daytona Beach, Fla.) Description An oral history interview of Sumner Hutcheson III. The interview was conducted by Geoffrey Cravero in Trevor Colbourn Hall at the University of Central Florida in Orlando, Florida, on September 15th, 2025. Some of the topics covered include growing up in Brownsville, the entrepreneurship of his parents and meeting Black musical artists in his fathers store, his grandfather, Sumner Hutcheson I, being influenced by Marcus Garvey and immigrating to the United States from the Bahamas, his grandparents move back to Miami, his grandfathers entrepreneurship, and his familys businesses, the history of Brownsville and the types of professionals in the community, attending grade school, and educators that influenced him and his sister, his father attending Bethune-Cookman University and joining the schools first football team, his father facing discrimination while traveling with his football team and the power of Mary McLeod Bethune, the role of friends in the Jewish community in his fathers businesses, lessons learned from his father, facing discrimination on the high school swim team and his fathers response, the consequences of racial integration, and growing up around the Latino community, attending Bethune-Cookman and Barry Universities, becoming involved in the American Red Cross and his career experience with the organization, including working for Elizabeth Dole, retiring from the Red Cross, selling real estate, and returning to work for the Red Cross, retiring from the Red Cross for the second time, and becoming Vice-President of University Advancement at Bethune-Cookman, retiring from Bethune-Cookman and immediately being recruited to work for Florida International University, his life after retirement doing consulting work and working with the Peace and Justice Institute, meeting Presidents John F. Kennedy, Lyndon B. Johnson, Bill Clinton, Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush, finding a last-minute helicopter to bring Bernadine Healy to the Mary McLeod Bethune home, and his closing remarks. Table Of Contents 0:00:00 Introduction 0:00:24 Growing up in Brownsville, the entrepreneurship of his parents and meeting Black musical artists in his fathers store 0:03:42 His grandfather, Sumner Hutcheson I, being influenced by Marcus Garvey and immigrating to the United States from the Bahamas 0:05:30 His grandparents move back to Miami, his grandfathers entrepreneurship, and his familys businesses 0:09:08 The history of Brownsville and the types of professionals in the community 0:15:02 Attending grade school, and educators that influenced him and his sister 0:17:54 His father attending Bethune-Cookman University and joining the schools first football team 0:20:37 His father facing discrimination while traveling with his football team and the power of Mary McLeod Bethune 0:24:16 The role of friends in the Jewish community in his fathers businesses 0:25:34 Lessons learned from his father, facing discrimination on the high school swim team and his fathers response 0:29:31 The consequences of racial integration, and growing up around the Latino community 0:34:32 Attending Bethune-Cookman and Barry Universities, becoming involved in the American Red Cross and his career experience with the organization, including working for Elizabeth Dole 0:39:00 Retiring from the Red Cross, selling real estate, and returning to work for the Red Cross 0:41:45 Retiring from the Red Cross for the second time, and becoming Vice-President of University Advancement at Bethune-Cookman 0:44:24 Retiring from Bethune-Cookman and immediately being recruited to work for Florida International University 0:45:44 His life after retirement doing consulting work and working with the Peace and Justice Institute 0:48:02 Meeting Presidents John F. Kennedy, Lyndon B. Johnson, Bill Clinton, Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush 0:56:40 Finding a last-minute helicopter to bring Bernadine Healy to the Mary McLeod Bethune home 1:03:21 His closing remarks Abstract Oral history interview of Sumner Hutcheson III. Interview conducted by Geoffrey Cravero in Orlando, Florida, on September 15, 2025. Type Moving Image Source Hutcheson III, Sumner. Interviewed by Geoffrey Cravero, September 15, 2025. Audio record available. <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">RICHES of Central Florida</a>, Orlando, Florida. Requires Multimedia software, such as <a href="http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener"> QuickTime</a>. <a href="http://www.adobe.com/products/reader.html" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Adobe Acrobat Reader</a> Is Part Of <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka/collections/show/231" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Sumner Hutcheson III Collection</a>, <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka/collections/show/182" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Miami-Dade County Collection</a>, RICHES. Has Format Digital transcript of original 1-hour 06-minutes, and 21-seconds oral history: Hutcheson III, Sumner. Interviewed by Geoffrey Cravero. Audio record available. <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">RICHES</a>, Orlando, Florida. Coverage Brownsville, Florida Overtown, Florida Jackson's Toddle Inn, Miami, Florida Bethune-Cookman University, Daytona Beach, Florida Miami Jackson High School, Miami, Florida Key West, Florida Mary McLeod Bethune Home, Daytona Beach, Florida Creator Hutcheson III, Sumner Cravero, Geoffrey Publisher <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">RICHES</a> Date Created 2025-09-15 Date Copyrighted 2025-09-15 Format video/mp4 application/pdf Extent 8.93 GB 442 KB Medium 1-hour 06-minutes, and 21-seconds audio recording 27-page digital transcript Language eng Mediator History Teacher Provenance Originally created by Sumner Hutcheson III and Geoffrey Cravero and published by <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">RICHES</a>. Rights Holder <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">RICHES</a> Accrual Method Item Creation Curator Cravero, Geoffrey Digital Collection <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">RICHES MI</a> External Reference "<a href="https://www.orlandosentinel.com/1997/09/25/new-red-cross-leader-ready-for-a-challenge/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">New Red Cross Leader Ready for a Challenge</a>." The Orlando Sentinel. September 25, 1997. Accessed March 27, 2026. https://www.orlandosentinel.com/1997/09/25/new-red-cross-leader-ready-for-a-challenge. Robbins, Seth. "<a href="https://www.news-journalonline.com/story/news/education/campus/2018/02/03/b-cu-alumni-demand-reform-while-remembering-universitys-roots/15301241007/?gnt-cfr=1&gca-cat=p&gca-uir=false&gca-epti=z112580e112580v000056&gca-ft=120&gca-ds=sophi" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">B-CU alumni demand reform while remembering the university's roots'</a>." The Daytona Beach News-Journal. February 3, 2018. Accessed March 27, 2026. Barton, Clara, and Cairns Collection of American Women Writers. <a href="https://search.worldcat.org/title/17484679" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">1898. The Red Cross : A History of This Remarkable International Movement in the Interest of Humanity</a>. Washington, D.C.: American National Red Cross. Transcript Cravero This is Geoffrey Cravero and I’m conducting an oral history with Sumner Hutcheson. The interview is being conducted at Trevor Colbourn Hall at the University of Central Florida on Monday, September 15th, 2025. Mr. Hutcheson, thank you for speaking with us today. If you’d begin, uh, please by stating your full name and telling us a bit about where you’re from and what life was like for you growing up. Hutcheson Surely. Um, thanks for the opportunity, first of all, to be here and to talk a little bit about my family. Um, I grew up, uh—I was born and raised in Miami, Florida, in a community that was often referred to as Brown Sub . Although I was born in Overtown . Overtown was the Black community, um, in, uh, Miami that actually was very rich because the community involved everything from single family homes to what they used to call Good Bread Alley, which was not so pleasant [laughs] in terms of the area. But Good Bread Alley was named that because they used to bake bread in that area. And the smell created that. But I grew up, um, in, um, uh—in—in Brownsville. But my family’s businesses—my father was a, uh, first of all, an appliance owner. He had Hutcheson Home Appliance Store on Third Avenue and, uh, Overtown. And my mother was a beautician. So, my mother had her own beauty shop there in Overtown as well. So, um, as in—during my early life, one of the things that was really a great experience for me was being able to, um, enjoy, um, looking at, um, the Butterball . That was a DJ that actually was on WMBM . It was about two doors down from my dad’s, um, appliance store around a glass, uh, enclosure. So, it’s like, um—let’s say like, um, The Today Show , where, you know, people can look in while the DJ was spinning the records. And that was fun as a kid. But even more importantly, uh, because my father had a record store as a part of his, um, uh, appliance store, uh, many times, um, Black artists, many of who[sic] which came to Miami, they would, uh, go to Miami Beach and entertain at the hotels and the like in that particular area. But then, they would come, uh, and live over town because they couldn’t live. Uh, and so sometimes those individuals would come to my father’s record store to sign autographs. And so, um, a lot of folk came in. I—I got s—see, um, when I was a little kid, Aretha Franklin , when her father, uh—when they came in town. But she was like a teenager at that point. Um, and, um, I got to see her. But the one I missed that I loved most was Nat King Cole . I used to think he was a fabulous singer. But my father was not able to get in touch with us. We didn’t have cell phones back in those days [laughs]. So, my father was not able to get in touch with, uh, my mom to, um—to bring me over while Nat was there. So, by the time she, um, uh—we were able to, um, get over town, he had already left. But, you know, they used to stay at the St. Elizabeth Hotel , uh, many times there in Overtown. Or some of the other hotels, ‘cause, you know, there was actually a thriving community. Overtown. I—I thought that, you know, people will walk the streets and drive up and down the streets and—and so, you know, there was really a lot of interesting situations in Overtown. Hutcheson And, as I shared with you earlier, even though I wasn’t aware of this un—until I was told this by, uh, the family members, Marcus Garvey used to come to town quite often. And when he came, you know, he was on his back-to-Africa movement . My grandfather, who was a pastor—that was the first Sumner Hutcheson . I’m Sumner Hutcheson III and he was the first Sumner Hutcheson. And he would, um, uh, march with Marcus Garvey in their white outfits on the stand down Third Avenue on usually Saturday or Sunday afternoons. Um, so Marcus was, uh, quite influential in terms of community. And I think it was primarily because, um, most of Overtown at that point was made up of families from the Bahamas. Well, that’s where my grandfather came from. My grandfather was actually born in the Bahamas. Um, he actually, um, came to the United States, uh, because of some family dispute over a girlfriend or a wife or something [laughs]. So, he came to, uh, the Bahamas, uh—come—came from the Bahamas. He was born in Eleuthera. On the island of Eleuthera. In a town called Hatchet Bay or Alice Town. And then, he went to Nassau to teach school. And then, he left there and moved to Miami. Uh, he eventually worked his way down to the Florida Keys—through the Florida Keys down to Key West. Well, he got married and that’s where my father was born. So, my—I still have many of my family and relatives, um, living in Key West, who, um—who are primarily there. And a part of my grandmother’s side of the family. Hutcheson But they eventually—their—their family moved back to Miami. And, uh, when, uh, they came back to Miami, they really, um, were doing all sorts of businesses. My grandfather owned a sundry, uh, as—as they were called back in those days. But he was also a reverend. So, he was a pastor. And he was a good teacher. So many times, I was told, that he would spend his Sunday afternoons on the porch. Always in his three-piece outfit. My grandfather never appeared outside the house, from what I understand, without a three-piece suit on. And, um, he would be on the porch training other pastors, along with Reverend Curtis and, um—Enid Curtis Johnson , who was, a, uh, good friend of the family’s. And just passed in her nineties just recently. She and her father and my grandfather would spend time together there and they would train other persons. My grandfather eventually built a rooming house, as it was called. And on top of the rooming house, there was a, um—the family quarters. So, they had family quarters and they had a 16-room rooming house on the bottom. And many times, people who came in from the Bahamas would stay there maybe temporarily. In fact, I still have some copies of the receipts. I forgot. It was very, very cheap {laughs] that they used to stay. I still have some copies of those at home, where my father kept them. And so, I’ve kept them. And so, um [smacks lips], my father, um [smacks lips], had lots of businesses. He—he was not only in, um, the—in the appliance business. He eventually closed his appliance store and decided to become a real estate broker. He was one of the first registered real estate brokers—Black—in the state of Florida. Because at one time, real estate folks were selling swampland [laughs] in—in—in Florida. And so, um, my father, who was born in 1905, um, to—and my mother, as I mentioned, who was a beautician, got married in 1935, um, there in Miami. And, um, as you could probably—if you add up all of those things, you probably think, well, wait a minute. Something is not right in terms of me. I’m 75 now, but, um, the reality is that, um, my parents were married for about 16, 17 years before I was born. And then, my sister came along about four years later. And I have a sister by the name of Pamela. And she’s that—she’s still a Hutcheson. So, she’s Pamela Hutcheson, who, um, I’m very proud of my sister. Because, um, she’s done a lot of really great things in her life. Um, had to cut—had to overcome some obstacles with drugs and the like. But eventually went into the McDonald’s business. And actually owned five franchises before she retired. So, I’m very proud of her. So, uh, but anyway, back to my dad. My dad, um [smacks lips], then went into the real estate business with the—with the help of a gentleman by the name of Mr. Songer[sp]. Mr. Songer[sp] was a Jewish gentleman, who my father established a relationship with. And, um, they, um, worked together to, um, help him get his real estate license. And he opened then Hutcheson Realty. Uh, and then he used to sell houses. Primarily in the Brown Sub, or Brownsville. Hutcheson I—I always get that mixed up now. Because we always called it Brown Sub. And so, now they call it Brownsville—but—community. So, that was the area he sort of farmed, if you will [clears throat]. The interesting thing about Brown Subdivision was that it was actually originally a—a large farm owned by a gentleman by the name of Mr. Brown . And it was his subdivision. And when the, uh, county of Dade decided to carve out that community and they called it homeowners paradise. But for ten years, they couldn’t decide whether that community would be white or Black. So, it took them a long time to actually, uh, make that decision. So, they finally made the decision that it would be a Black community. And so, we were one of the first, um, um, uh, families to move out there in 1950. My dad built his own home in 1950, uh, moving from Overtown and moving out to Brown Sub. And, um, I, you know—when we get a chance, I’ll show you some of the pictures. I actually still have pictures even of the house before it was actually, um—we actually move into it. Because they had to do it for permitting and tax purposes. They would look at the house and make a decision on what it would be taxed. But, um, it was, uh—it was really a lot of fun growing up in that community as well. Um, and one of the things that was really fascinating about that particular community is that while, um, people started moving to Brown Sub, and it started developing, and moved into homeowners paradise is the area that it was plotted as, um, they would, uh—a lot of professional people lived in that community. So, my teachers. Most of my teachers lived in the neighborhood. Uh, most of the doctors in the community lived in that neighborhood. Most of the Black dentists lived in that community. Some of them still having their businesses over town, uh, with the business section of that area, as my father did. But, um, would have, um, you know, just have their—their life over there because they could build single-family homes, um, on land that was actually pretty interesting. I—I remember people used to tease my dad and tell my father he moved into the Everglades. Now, you’re from Miami, so you know Northwest 7th Avenue used to be the edge of the Everglades. That’s what they used to say. So—so [laughs] they—sometimes I—some of my dad’s professional friends used to always tease him. “Why you moving out there in the Everglades?” And then, they eventually—they would come out because my dad would, uh, encourage them to come out and look at homes. In fact, um, in our community, we had some really outstanding people. And, um, one of these days, I’m going to write a book about it because I really honestly believe that in the number of people who, um, not only grew up in that community, they produced, um, uh, children who really professionally did very, very well. Um, from actors to, um, managers to—in fact, my, uh, doctor here in Orlando is—I grew up with him in—in Brown Sub. Didn’t know who he was until—when I moved here, you know, as CEO of the American Red Cross. And I’ll talk about my history in the Red Cross in a minute. But, um, there were a lot of professionals that lived in that community. So, we had some outstanding role models. As we saw, you know, teachers who used to buy new cars every year. I used to think that was kind of fascinating. Boy, you can buy a new car every year. And they used to always talk about our house because our house had a garage, which a lot of people didn’t. And we had two cars. And a lot people were like, “Wow. You have two cars [laughs]?” You know, so I used to get kind of ribbed about that quite a bit when I was in elementary school that, you know, you all drive. Your—your family’s got two cars. But my parents were both in their own business. And my mother’s real—um, beauty business was doing very well. She did—she did—she did hair. And, you know, a lot of Black folks used to come there and get their hair done. And so, she had a really thriving business. In fact, she did a lot better sometimes than my dad did because his business was, um, you know—real estate business can be off an on. So, it can be better and worse. And he owned his own firm. He wasn’t a—a member of the KAI Family or the—the Coldwell Banker as they are now. And those kinds of companies. But so, he had his own company. So, um, you know, he had to struggle sometimes in terms of trying to manage. But we—we were—we were blessed. We were truly blessed. We were a truly blessed family. And, unfortunately, going back to my grandfather, he died when I was eight years old. So, I didn’t really get to know him very, very well, unfortunately. Um, and I wish I had because I hear so many great stories about him. From his teaching to his—to his entrepreneurship. In fact, um, I used to have a good friend of mine who used to call the house and the area that he owned over town “the Hutcheson Compound” because it not only included that home, as I mentioned the rooming house with the family house on top, but it also included a mango grove on the side. So, it was large, large properties that he had there. My—my—my family's always been kind of entrepreneurial. I—I don't—I don’t know how I got just in social services and like [laughs]—but, uh—but, you know, they we—they were pretty entrepreneurial. Hutcheson So, anyway, um—so, my sister and I grew up in Brown Sub. And, um, we were pretty, um, blessed to be in that community, as I said, because that community, um, uh, had a lot of people who—who were very good at their professions. Um, the principal of my elementary school. Um, there was a—a very extraordinary, um, nursery school or, uh, daycare kind of program run by a woman by the name of Ida Jackson down the street a block from my house. And it was called Jackson Toddle Inn . And it was amazing. Mrs. Jackson, even—I didn't go there, but, uh, my sister did. And Miss Jackson had a very unique teaching style. She used to use a bolo bat, you know, that she used to—I don't know if you know what a bolo—you probably don't know what a bolo bat is, but it's a—it's a piece of wood with a string on it that's elastic. An elastic piece. And it has a ball on the end. So, you—so she used to take that apart and she would teach with it. So, she would hit on the side of her chair and she taught [taps table] John [taps table] and [taps table] Mary [taps table] said [taps table] go. You know? And that's the way she would teach. And it was interesting because most of the people came out of her school like my sister, who was extraordinary. Let me kind of share that story with you a little bit. Um, my sister went to, uh, Jackson Toddle Inn. And, um, once, um, she finished Jackson Toddle Inn, um, they used to have an entrance exam before you went into the public school system. But when my sister, uh, went in and took the examination, she, um, uh, had a, um—she—in other words, when they—they—they graded her. And when they graded her, it was at a sixth-grade level. So, they were—oh, you know, Black teachers in a segregated school system, they were like, oh we—oh, man, yes. We got to put this six-year-old in the sixth grade. And my father was, "Oh, no. That's not gonna happen. I'm not putting my daughter." And so, they went back and forth for a couple of weeks. And they finally decided to put her in the third grade. So, I have a sister who, um, like me, graduated from Bethune-Cookman , but she graduated, uh, from high school at 15, went through college in three years and graduated from college at Bethune-Cookman at 18. So [laughs]—so she was—she was always the smart one in the family [laughs], you know, like. So, anyway, um—but I—I'm very proud, as you can tell. I'm very, very proud of my family and the many things that we've accomplished. Um, my father went to Mrs. Bethune's school. And I want to—I'm going to switch to that. So, I'm kind of going back and forth a little bit. But it—let me go back because, you know, you—you may not be aware. Uh, growing up as a kid in the twenties, you could only go to eighth grade because that's the only—they stopped school for Black kids at eighth grade. So, my father comes out of the eight grade and, um, he—and, you know, he's—he's stuck. He wants—but his father doesn't want him—his father wants him to go on. And so, he enrolled in Mrs. Bethune's school. And, uh, Mrs. Bethune, um, used to spend a lot of time in and out of Miami recruiting students and the like. And so, he went to Mrs. Bethune's school. And in 1923, while she was—while he was at that school and it was just becoming co-educational because it originally started with five little girls and—and there was a bunch of girls that she taught. But she eventually, uh, developed a co-educational program. Well, he went there and he was on the first football team in 1923. And, by the way, that team is going to be inducted into—to the Bethune-Cookman Athletic Hall of Fame this weekend. So, I'm really excited about that. But that team, um—and it's so fascinating because here at UCF is where I did most of my research to find information on their archives here about the team. Uh, and I have some photographs of that—of the team as well. Uh, he was a running back and a defensive back. There were only 15 members of the team. So [laughs]—and he used to always say that Mrs. Bethune named them the Wildcats. And, um, she [laughs] actually many times would come out and—and be the assistant coach, uh, while [laughs]—while the team was being, um—while the team was practicing. Um, they used to travel around. They traveled to Miami. They traveled places in Alabama. Um, and—but Miss Bethune really had an outstanding program there as well. You know it’s Bethune-Cookman University now. And, of course, my sister and I ended up going there as well. Didn't plan to. Somehow that just happened. But my father used to talk about Miss Bethune so much. And she used to come by our house when she was in Miami, uh, because she loved my dad so much. Now, of course, I was a little kid. So, I only have just brief kind of glimpses of that. ‘Cause she died, I think, when I was about five or six years old. But she used to come by all the time and see my dad. Um, and so, uh, my dad is very, very fond of Miss Bethune, and Miss Bethune is very fond of him. Hutcheson Uh, one of the stories I'm going to tell, uh, about the power of Mary McLeod Bethune. I mean, I could sit here all day talk about Mary McLeoad Bethune. But one of the things that I am going to talk about this weekend as they go into—go into the Hall of Fame, and I'm probably one of the few children or grandchildren that they're able to find now. But, uh, my sister and I will be there and, um, one of the stories that's always so fascinating to me. You know, I came, um, through college during the Black power movement. You know, we were about Black power [laughs]. And so, this particular story always resonated with me. Because when my father used to tell me, I used to—oh gosh, I used to be so angry sometimes. Um, he, um, said they had to borrow a school bus in 1924, I think it was. So, you can imagine that must have been a little rickety bus and it only had a little one—one stop light. And they were driving through some dirt roads in Alabama going to play a game. They had been driving all night, and they got stopped by a sheriff dep—deputy. The sheriff deputy, as he came, uh, out of his car and, uh, he broke the light. And he went up and told the coach, who was driving the bus, "Do you know you have a broken light? You can't drive through our community, uh, with a broken light.” And, you know, some of the players tried to tell but they had to be quiet, you know, that—that light—he broke the light. But he said, “Okay.” Well, you have—there's—there's going to be a fine. You either have to pay the fine or all you guys—all you boys are going—boys are going to jail. Okay? So, unfortunately, the coach did not have any money. He actually made them follow him in and—and—and actually put the whole team in jail. So, somehow the coach was able to get like communications back to Mrs. Bethune and tell her what happened. Few hours later, the sheriff came and unlocked the jail cell and said, "Okay, you boys can get back in your—in—back in your bus now. Um, and I don't know who that Black woman is that, uh…” Probably called her something else. “Uh, Black woman is. Boy, she has to be mighty powerful if she gets you out of my jail.” And somehow she arranged to get them out so they could continue on their travels. Of course, um, he—even she evidently arranged for him because when they got back to the—to the vehicle, they found that the light was repaired. And the one light [laughs] was repaired. Again, I can tell you tons of stories about Mary McLeod Bethune. And my dad's experience. And being with her. And like she was a quite a powerful person in our history of the United States. She really was—has now what? Three statues around? Four statues. One in Lincoln Park in Washington DC run by the National Park Service. One at the US Capitol representing the State of Florida. That was done just recently. Um, last few years. Um, there's one in Daytona Beach, that's exact opp—um, the exact, uh, statue. The one in Lin—um, in, um, Daytona Beach is made out of bronze. But the one at the Capitol is made out of, um, [taps table] what is it, ivory? Yeah, I guess it is. Yeah. So, anyway, um—so, the same, um, sculpturer did both statues. And then, there's actually one on the campus of Bethune-Cookman. So, it's just a powerful, powerful person, you know, and—and the like. But kind of getting back to the family, um, my dad did well in real estate. In fact, um, he had a lot of very, very close friends in the Jewish community, um, that I think were very positive in helping him expand his businesses and help him, uh, grow his business, especially in real estate. In fact, he even owned some acreage down in the Everglades at one time called Dreamland Estates. He and Mr. Fuller. Mr. Fuller was one of his business partners, who was hi wo—a guy who was Jewish, who was in Miami Beach. And my father used to do business with him. And, uh, they had this property. And then, eventually the government came in and unfort—and—and fortunately bought it all up because they needed to put some new waterways through the Everglades and the like. So, they ended up buying it all. And so, that was quite profitable for—for Mr. Fuller and for my dad. And—and my dad took that opportunity to retire from his real estate business. And my mom did exactly the same thing. She retired from her be—beauty business. And, um, they were able to live a good life for a few years before my mom passed at an early age of 62, which is really unfortunate. But, um, uh, my dad went on and, um—and enjoyed the rest of his life. And—and I think he lived until 74. So, um, uh, I'm very proud of my parents. I—they—they did a really good job with us. Um, and one of the things I learned from my dad, and I guess he got it from his grandfather, was that Black people in this country can do anything. They want to do it, they can do anything. He told me, "Don't ever, ever let that, um—the fact that you're African-American or Black, we were called that, you know, the names have just changed over the years [laughs]. That you were Negro. That you were from colored to Negro to—to Black to African-American. Um, don't ever let the color of your skin hold you back. And so, I remember I used to swim competition in high school and college. And I went to Miami Jackson High School . You probably know Miami Jackson, uh, Senior High School. Well, when I went there, it was all white. There were a few Blacks who were there before us, but we became what they called “the big experiment” in Miami Day County in terms of school systems. So, they brought in this, uh, very experienced, uh, white principal. His name was Mr. Burroughs. I will never forget him because he was really a great man. Uh, and they, uh, brought in some special teachers and they even bought some teachers from my segregated junior high school to, um—to, uh, um, uh, work at Miami Jackson. To integrate fully Miami Jackson. They also brought some, um, students in from Dorsey Junior High School , which is in the Black community and kind of further northwest. They brought them in. And so, we were a part of this great experience. Um, the experience was really, uh, for the most part, very positive. But I remember my swim coach one day made the comment that Black men and Black girls don't swim as good as white women and white men because they're not as buoyant. They can't stay on top of the water. And I came home and told my dad that. He said, "What did he say? He told you that?" He said, "Sumner, don't you believe that." You know, we couldn't Google it [laughs]. So, he said, "Don't you ever believe anything like that. Okay?” That is the kind of thing that's always been something that has held African Americans back. Being told those kind—or Black people back. Um, and so the next day when we pulled up to Manor Park Pool, where we used to do our swim practice, my dad's car was sitting in the park. And I said, "Oh my God, I know this is going to be interesting." And so, my dad got out the car, and he told Mr. Helmers, who was the, um, swim coach, he said, "May I speak to you?" Uh, I know that my dad wore him out about telling us that story, okay? Because he came back as we were doing our warm-up practices. We just went in the pool inside just as he—because he—my dad kind of held him for a while. So, we just did our warm-ups and then he told us to come and sit down. And he said, "I made a statement yesterday to you all and Mr. Hutcheson came and—and—and talked to me about that. And I will never ever make that statement again ‘cause that is obviously something that I was told and I believed it. And it—it—it probably is not true.” ‘Cause my sister, now she was a really great swimmer. I was an average swimmer, but my sister was a great swimmer. She used to be in the county competitions and all of that. Uh, so, obviously, that was not at all true. But the problem was—is that many of the students, um, as soon as we, um—the school was integrated, they left the community. They—they went Coral Gables and Miami High and some other schools. They just—they—they took off, you know. So, I went into school when we were just a very small percentage in 10th grade at Miami Jackson. By the time I graduated, uh, we were the majority because many of the white students—but there also a lot of Latino students there. A lot of Cuban students. Primarily Cuban students who were there as well. So—and, uh, we—we all s—we got along. We had a good time. We used to have a lot of fun there and the like. And, um, I was really blessed because, um, I found out later in—in learning about my family history that my father grew up in the Latino community in Key West. You know, that community was primarily, uh, very mixed. You know, people used to go back and forth to Cuba and—and—and Tampa and the Bahamas. That used to be like the trading routes in the Americas, that part. And so, um, one day my father told us that he was going to be taking us with him back to Key West. We used to go to Key West all the time. I mean, we used to go Key West at least once a month ‘cause my dad love to fish. And my foo—my sister-in-law and I love to fish. So, we go down there all the time, too. But we, um, went to Key West. And he was telling us that he was going to get —try to find a birth certificate for his aunt because he—she wanted to send her children from Cuba where they live back to the United States. And, um, I mean it wasn't significant to me, you know. That was during the sixties and the Cuban Missile Crisis was going on. I remember one of our trips down to Key West. We were going down US1 and there were missile silos on the beaches off of the Keys. because, you know, they were really serious. That got to be a really big crisis with Cuba at the time. But anyway, so one of my cousins was able to come out of Cuba. And when she came to our home, we had to—she had to stay with us for two years because that's the requirement of, uh, Cuban-Americans coming to—I mean Cubans coming to the United States. And she does—she did not speak a word of English. Okay? So, we're sitting at the dinner table. I mean, we were very formal, my family, sitting at the table having breakfast one morning. And a parakeet is flying around ‘cause he—my daddy used to let him out and he would fly around [laughs] and then he would sit on his head. But my [laughs]—my cousin used to think that was so strange. So, she started talking to my father one morning in Spanish. And my father started telling us what she was saying [chair squeaks]. I was like, "Dad, you speak Spanish?" He said, "No, I don't speak it, but I understand it. Because I grew up in a home where I spoke Spanish until I was 12 years old.” When we moved back to Miami, my dad used to make me wear a, um, top hat. That's what he called it. Made me and—and he used to make me wear a top hat. And I only spoke Spanish in the house ‘cause my grandfather spoke it. Evidently, he learned it. My grandmother learned it and spoke it. But—and they all—‘cause they all grew up in Key West, where they had a lot of Hispanic families who were mixed and—and the like. C—couple my aunts married Hispanic, uh, Cuban men and moved to Cuba. And like—so I was just fascinated. I was like, ”You know how to speak Spanish?” I mean I just all these years. I'm—I'm in junior high school at this point or middle school what they call it now. And I can't believe that my dad knows how to speak Spanish [laughs]. So—but anyway, um, that was a—that was quite an experience as well growing up with Sonia. So, she started teaching us Spanish. I picked it up a little bit. I—I, um, I picked it up a little bit. And, in fact, my son—my son, Sumner Hutcheson IV, I made sure that when he was in school in Miami, he taught with Spanish every year. Now he speaks Spanish fluently. So, they just missed my generation. They—my dad spoke Spanish evidently. I don't speak it that well. I can even get by, you know [knocks table]? And my, um—and my—my son speaks Spanish, um, quite well. So, again, um, you know, the culture of living in Miami-Dade, as it is now, still is very multicultural. You got a lot of people from a lot of different countries. And—but it certainly is not the place I grew up. Miami was a big little town. That's what I used to call—big little—no. A t—a town that was—yeah. A big little town. I mean, it was just a very interesting place to grow up in Miami. And, um, Brown Sub was an exciting place. And so, I came through high school and I went to Miami-Dade Community College. Then went to Bethune-Cookman and—and I had a really good experience. I was a student government officer at, uh, Bethune-Cookman. I participated in a lot of different organizations and activities on campus. Had a really good time. And then, I went to graduate school at Barry University in—in Miami with a master's degree in—in social work administration. Uh, in between that time, I started working as an intern at the American Red Cross. Uh, uh, well, 35 years later, I retired from the American Red Cross as a senior executive. I was everything from, um, a Red Cross, um—I worked in Miami as the—the youth’s director and then I went—I moved to the American Red Cross in Washington DC. I was the disaster director in Washington DC. And then, uh, I ran one of our service centers, or branch offices, in Washington DC. And when a new executive CEO came in, he made me his assistant CEO in Washington DC. And so, I just kept moving up the ladder in—in the Red Cross. I eventually worked as the CEO of the American Red Cross in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, or the Susquehanna Valley area. Um, I was CEO there. Uh, I worked, actually, as, um—as the vice president they call the regional executive officer. So, I had responsibility for managing and over being responsible for, um, uh, rechartering Red Cross chapters and everywhere from New Jersey all the way to West Virginia. So, I—I could tell you that could—now that's another hour of conversation there because that was a very interesting community. C—different communities from flying into West Virginia on little puddle jumpers, as we used to call them, to being in New Jersey, where they were threatening my life because [laughs] we wanted to do something that we needed to do. Um, and, um—but I worked for Mrs. Dole. Uh, Elizabeth Dole. She was president at the time. And so, I had a very good experience working for her, too. That was really, um, an extraordinary experience. And then, I came here to Orlando to be the CEO of the American Red Cross in Central Florida. And, in fact, one of the better stories I have is that, um, Jacob Stewart at the time, who was over the, um, chamber here, asked me one day, "You think you could get Elizabeth to come down and do a presentation for us?" I said, "Sure." He used to have these monthly events. I said, "Sure." So, they announced that. You know, I called Elizabeth and asked her. W—she said, "Sure, I'll—I'll come down there. I—I'll be, um—I'll be happy to do that for you." And sh—he normally used to have it downtown, but the thing sold out so fast after they knew that Elizabeth was coming, that, um, they literally had to move it here on campus. They had it at the arena. So, the Elizabeth—the—and she used to do what I used to call the Dole stroll. She used to, um—used to have her mic on, but she used to walk around and she talked and the like. So, that was a—a really fascinating experience being escorted onto campus by the campus police and escorted to the airport [laughs] by the campus police, you know, who, you know—who took us with lights flashing and sirens going and the like. But they s—they sold out the arena as many seats that they could put in there, uh, with Elizabeth though. So, you know, I've had that—the Red Cross was that—was an outstanding experience for me. I had—I could talk about all the many things that happened with me and—and, uh, the American Red Cross. Um, uh, from, you know, being threatened by life in New Jersey to, um, going to, uh, West Virginia and, um—and—and people saying to me, “You're the new CEO RE—REO?” “Uh, yes. I'm the new REO here and—and—and yes, I'm here to work with you here in West Virginia [laughs].” Because you know those folk are not—they don't see a lot of Black folk in West Virginia. So, but I had outstanding—and I guess the best part of that is that I eventually decided, okay, it's time to retire. It's time to do something else. So, I went off and sold real estate for a little while. And all of a sudden, I get a phone call from the president of Bethune-Cookman University, Dr. Oswald Perry Bronson, Sr. I love that man. Um, he's now passed on. But he called me one day and said, “Sumner, I have a really major issue here at Bethune-Cookman. The Kresge Foundation has given us a significant amount of money to help us, um, grow our fundraising. And that's not what's happening. So, I need you to come and talk to me about how you can—because I know you used to raise money. And, in fact, we had a tornado here. I don't—you—I—you probably want to hear that was in the—that was right after I got here. So, it was the—the nineties tha—that killed 50 people in Orlando. And, uh, I had just become CEO here. And, um—and I raised—we raised—and I don't say I, but we raised—my board working with me and volunteers and the like, we raised something like $6 million in two weeks to support that, um, disaster relief operation. Mrs. Dole came down again during that time for me and—and helped me, um, because she wanted to see what I was doing, you know? She was the one who encouraged me to come to Florida ‘cause she said that when they had disasters here, nobody would ever really raise any money. So, Sumner, I need you to go down there and do that, you know? And so, she immediately—after she heard all the money we had raised, she came down and—and we went out to Kissimmee and places where really, um—and one of the things that was really fascinating that tornado, um, killed 50 people. And one of the really tragic stories I will never ever forget is a woman who came to Mrs. Dole and was telling her about how she heard this noise. She went to the door of her home with her baby and the baby was swept out her hands. Unfortunately, that baby was found in a tree about two days later dead. And she talked about some Mrs. Dole, who was a very, very religious person. She gathered everybody around her and they did a prayer for this woman and—and some other I was very touched by that, you know? By that particular experience. But, again, the Red Cross. I could—I—I—I can talk forever about my Red Cross experience. See, I'm not even letting you get to your questions, am I [laughs]? Cravero You've already—honestly, you’ve gotten through almost every one I was going to ask so [laughs]. Hutcheson [laughs] But then, um, I got a call one day back to Dr. Bronson at Bethune-Cookman. He said—I said, "Dr. Bronson, I do not want to work at Bethune-Cookman University." He says, "No." He said, "I just want you to come over here and talk to me." Well, Dr. Bronson was a very crafty person. And I see why he was such a good president. He was there almost 30 years. You know, presidents don't stay at universities that long. And so, he said to me, um, “I—I just want to get chance to talk to you.” Then, about an hour later, his secretary called me and said, "Mr. Hutcheson, uh, can you be here by 1:30?" I said, "It's 12:00. You know, it's going to take me an hour plus to get over there." She said, "Just put on a s—sports jacket and come on over." When I walked into the room, Dr. Bronson is there in the room with board members of the board of trustees [laughs] [taps table]. So, you know—and so I said, "Oh boy, I think I've been tricked” in my own head I'm taking—but I'm not going to let Dr. Bronson be humiliated or look bad. I want him to look really good in front of his board members. And so, they start interviewing me. They—they—they started interviewing me. Well, the president of the—chairman of the board at the time was the president, um, Stanley Marshall, I think his name. Yeah. He used to be president of FSU . He was also chairman of the board here. And I remember he got up and said, "You know, Dr. Marshall, I've got to catch my plane." After about 45 minutes of them interviewing me, he says, "Whatever you need to hear." I remember he came and touched my shoulders and he said—he was standing behind me. He said, "Whatever you need to do to get him here, you need to get him here as vice president." So anyway, the group broke up and Dr. Bronson said, "Well, come on with me to my office. I want to talk to you." And I was like, "Oh boy, here we go [claps hands] [laughs]." But he convinced me to make that hour and 15 minute drive from Ocoee, where I live, all the way to Daytona Beach every day. And, um, we had a very successful campaign there, um, in University Advancement. Uh, I actually, um, was able not only to meet the Kresge goals that they had given us, we actually got two major bonuses of $100,000 a piece, um, because the board had increased their giving significantly. I worked with the boards—my board representative to do that. And, you know—so we did some great things when I—when I was there. I—I loved—and then Dr. Bronson left. He retired and—and when the new president came in, I—I left. And as I was driving home that afternoon, my good friend, who was the CEO of the American Red Cross in Miami-Dade County, uh, Howard Lipman called me. He just happened to call me. You know, this is how God works. I'm driving my—feeling kind of good. Okay, I'm—I'm retired again. And—and Howard says, "What you doing?" I said, "You know, I'm driving home." He said, "Okay." He said, "Um." And so, we're just having general conversation. And I said, "By the way, I want you to know I left Bethune-Cookman. I—I resigned from Bethune-Cookman." He said, "Good." I said, "What do you mean by good?" He said, "You're going to come work with me at FIU ." I said, "Howard. I'm not coming all the way back." I said, "I don't want to live in Miami. I don't want to be in Miami." He says, "Well, again, come and just talk to me. Come and just talk to me." Well, long story short, I ended up working [laughs] at FIU as his associate vice president. And then soon after that, he left. And so, I was the acting, uh, interim pre—vice president for advancement for a while. And then, uh—then I left there and then took on one other assignment in Miami and that was at Florida Memorial University which is the HBCU down in Miami. So, I did that for a short time and then I retired retired at that point. I've done some consulting work. I, um, enjoyed my work in the University of Guyana in—in Georgetown, Guyana. I used to have fun going over there. Sometimes not so much fun because one day I drank the water. Boy, why do you do that, Sumner [laughs]? I was sick as a dog [laughs]. But—but I—I enjoy working with the—with the president of the University of Guyana, who I knew from FIU. Actually, I met him there, but he was, uh, Guy—Guyanese and he, uh, went back to be president of the University of Guyana. So, I worked with him there. Um, and I've worked with some other nonprofits and the like. And—and now, um, you know, I—I spend time primarily, uh, working with the Peace and Justice Institute here, where I chair the board. I—I chair the board and, um—and, unfortunately, with all the things going on with DEI throughout the country and the state of Florida, I got to be careful where I say this now, but, uh, it was a part of the Valencia College at one time. But things changed and so we had to come out and become our own 501c3. The Peace and Justice Institute. And so, working with Rachel Allen, who's an outstanding executive director, we have really built that program. And the program is still thriving in—in—in places where people still don't want to talk about diversity and inclusion and the like. But, um, we're still thriving. She's doing an excellent job and programming throughout the area has been recognized. She's been at the United Nations and done presentations and—and she's, uh, spent a lot of time in Sanford. They've had a lot of concerns over the many, many, um, uh, years since the Trayvon Martin situation. And so, it's, um, it's been—it's been pretty exciting, uh, that program and being chairman of the board. And growing the board. And growing the resources because now we got to raise money all the time. So, that's been a lot of fun doing that as well with Rachel. So, I am enjoying that very much. So, what else do you have? Anything else on that question list that you have for me that you wanted to make sure I tackled? Cravero Honestly, you got through pretty much every point I was going to ask about, um, including—I—I was waiting to hear about the Peace and Justice, but you got to that one, too. Hutcheson Yes. Mhmm. Cravero So, oh, um, I did have one actually… Hutcheson Okay. Cravero …note that I—I read somewhere. Did you end up meeting President Kennedy ? Hutcheson Yes. Cravero Will you tell us a little about that? Hutcheson Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Wow. You—you got a lot of information there [laughs]. Cravero [laughs]. Hutcheson Yes. Actually, the week he was killed, I met him. My father, um, was not only, um, good in business, he was good in politics, too. My father became one of the fir—I think the first A—African-American member, Black member, of the Democratic Executive Committee. So, you know, the Democratic Party in Miami-Dade County, he was on the executive committee. He had to be elected to that position and he was—and he was the first Black. So, when, um, President Kennedy came to my—he came to—he was killed on a Thursday. I will never forget this. He was killed. I was in junior high school. Uh, and he came to Miami on a Monday. The Monday before he was killed. And he landed at Miami International Airport . So, the Democratic Executive Committee was allowed to go and greet him on the tarmac. That shows you things have changed a lot, you know, with Secret Service and all of that. But they were there. But still, we were able to greet him. So, my father, not wanting us to ever miss an opportunity, took my sister and myself with us—with him and so—with him. And so, as Kennedy came down the plane, I remember him slowly coming down the plane—that, um—down the steps. And he, um—Air Force One. Uh, and then he greeted people. We were right in the line. So, we got to shake his hand as he went off and then he got, of course, into his car and left. But what they didn't tell you. I also miss—I met—I met President Johnson , too. So, I told you my father was very active in politics. So, he used to own a, um—when he was in his later years of his real estate business, he bought a, um, three storefront building in Liberty City. It was really Allapattah . Y—yeah. It wasn’t Liberty City because it was really Allapattah. So, one storefront was his real estate business. The middle storefront was my mother's, uh, beauty shop. And the third place on the corner was rented. He would rent it to different groups and places. But this particular time, a gentleman by the name of Charlie Hadley used to run with my dad. And Charlie was very, very prominent in Miami-Dade County and they started Operation Big Vote . So, they used to be there, uh, and would be on the phones with people making sure that they understood how—the importance of voting. And even before that, my daddy was also, uh, an officer in the Dade County Young Democratic Association. That was a Black organization. And so, they would often interview candidates who were running for office. And then they would rate them and put a big advertisement in the Miami Times , which is the Black newspaper in—in—in Miami-Dade. Still is Miami-Dade County. And they would put this whole big strip so that you could cut it out and take it with you and you’d know who to vote for. City commission or—or judge. And these people were not African Americans in most instances. Most time, they were white, but still my—because the group had interviewed them. But anyway, here it is. We had Operation Big Vote and I'm on the phones calling people asking them do they need ride, uh—rides to the poll. ‘Cause that's another thing that I used to do is after I got my, um, uh, regular license, I—I used to go pick up people and take them to the polls. So, I was there on the phone and all of a sudden, I guess my dad knew it, but I didn't. I was just on the phone. All these Secret Service people swept into the building. Okay? I was like, "What's going on here?" ‘Cause I didn't know who it was. But, you know, you can always tell they got these little things in their ears, you know, like well, what's going on here? And somebody I said, "Come on over here. Just come and stand right here." President Johnson and his—and his motorcade drove up to the building. He actually came inside, shook everybody's hand, congratulated them on their Operation Big Vote and, you know, encouraged them. He only stayed probably 15 minutes. 20 minutes at the most, probably. And then, he got back in his motorcade and—and left. So, I got to meet both Kennedy and Johnson probably within a year because, of course, you know, Johnson became president after Kennedy was killed. So, I got chance to meet both of them and—and—and that was, um—that was quite an opportunity. But the—you know, but as I went to Washington DC, I don't know if you know this, the president of the United States is always the honorary chairman of the board of the American Red Cross. And so, they used to always declare Red Cross Month. Okay? So, I got to shake Bill Clinton's hand when he was president. When I was living in DC and working at the Red Cross in DC. Uh, I got to shake Ronald Reagan's hand when he was chairman of the board—uh, honorary chair ‘cause they would always come, um, over to the Red Cross chapter rather than the Red Cross national headquarters because we had a big conference room that, you know, you could have people stand around and they could walk in with all the secret service and all that. I used to always tell people—I used to always be fascinated whenever you see all these people on polls, um, look like they're working on the telephone line or something. Those are Secret Service [laughs]. So, when—when you saw them start climbing these poles, you know something—you know, that things are happening. So, I got to shake Ronald Reagan's hand. I got to shake Bill Clinton's hand and in the receiving line and the like. And so, um—so I've had—I've had—I've had a few presidential touches, if you will [laughs]. So, in my lifetime, which is really good. And oh, no. I got another one, too. Um, George Bush . This the—the second George Bush. I was on the board of Seniors First here in Orlando. I don't even know if that agency still exists, but I was on the board. And George Bush came to visit Seniors First. And so, we were told as board members I—I have that picture too. Um, a—as board members, that you're going to be on the front line of the row of seats, okay? But you are not to move. You're not to—you stay still as President—as President Bush enters the place. Well, George Bush walks in the place and he's smiling and stuff and he's looking at me the whole time. Okay? I mean, literally, he's looking at me the whole time. And he walks right over to me. Well, I'm not going to sit there. Why? So, I actually stood up [laughs]. And secret service—I sort of started looking around. I stood up and shook his hand, gave him a little hug, and then he went down and—and—and greeted the others who were still sitting. But I wasn't, you know? I'm a man. I'm not going to sit down, you know [laughs]? So, I got—I got a chance to spend that little time with George Bush as well. Yeah. I had some good experiences in life. Like I said, I'm truly blessed. You know, I've had some really, really lifelong experiences. And I've been trying to encourage my son, who's Sumner Hutcheson IV, um— who just recently had to move down to, um, South Florida to spend time with his mother, who has dementia unfortunately. He—he lived in Atlanta for a number of years. Couldn't get him to go to Bethune-Cookman. He went to—he's a Morehouse man. And so, he went to Morehouse. And then he went to Barry University as I did. But the day he graduated, he went right [taps table] back to Atlanta. And he stayed there until just recently, when he's moved back at the age of—how old is my son now? 51. Oh, gosh. He has a birthday coming up this week. I just thought about that [taps table]. 52, I guess he'll be this week. Uh, but, you know, I've tried to get him involved, but he's not. He says, "No, Dad." I just—I love admiring what you've done in life [laughs]. I don't need to have, um—have those kinds of experiences as well. So, yeah. So, I—yeah. I've touched a few presidents in the—in the United States. Not all of them, but I've touched a few. There's some who I wouldn't want to touch, but that's a whole ‘nother[sic] story [laughs]. But—but, um yeah, but I've had that experience especially because of the Red Cross, too, and—and some we—some things that we've done. In fact, let me tell you how—how—how much influence, um, after Elizabeth Dole left the Red Cross to run for the Senate. You remember she was a senator at one time. Uh, we had a—a president by the name of Bernadine Healy , who became president. She's unfortunately has transitioned at this point. But Bernardine wanted to come down to visit me here in Orlando. They always love coming to Orlando. So—and so, when she got here, you know, I worked with her for a couple of days. And, um—and then she, um, said to me, she says, "Senator, my staff tells me you went to Bethune-Cookman." I said, "Yes." She said, "Well, you know, Mary McLeod Bethune had a lot to do with the American Red Cross." I said, "I know.” She founded the American Red Cross chapter in Daytona Beach, Florida. She actually was on the first Negro advisory committee to the National Red Cross. along with Charles Drew and some others. And she was one of the people who insisted on that committee that they stop separating blood. They used to actually put blood after they took it out of human beings. Black blood, white blood, and used Black blood on Black people, white blood on white people. She made them put it all in the same case so they wouldn't be—she got a lot of push back. Of course, the Red Cross got a lot of push back, too. ‘Cause they were like, "Wait a minute. You used to send us separate bags. Now you're sending us, you know, this one bag. And now we got to figure it out.” Well, you don't have to figure it out. You all—you concerned about is what type it is. Is it O? Is it C? You know, whatever. What it—what is it the type that's needed to be transfused into—into human beings? So, I said, “Absolutely.” She said, um—she said to me—she said, "Son, you know, I have a flight at 5:00." I remember she looked at her watch and said, "I have a flight at 5:00 and it's 10. Is there any way that we could make it to Daytona and back and so I could visit Mary McLeod Bethune's home ?” You know, Mary McLeod Bethune's home is on campus and it's actually on Trip Advisor. If you go to Trip Advisor, it's the number one attraction, not the Speedway . It's the number one attraction in Daytona Beach. Uh, and a lot of people go in there ‘cause they left the house exactly at—after she died with all her memorabilia and everything. And they've had to—in fact, just recently they reopened it again after they've had to many times refurbish it. Because, you know, I mean it's old. So, it's had. But they did a major refurbishment just recently and reopened it. So—so, um, they, um—I said h—I said, “Bernardine, that is tough.” I said, “Because you never know what this traffic is going to be like on I-4 out here.” And, like I said, “but, give me—give me a few minutes.” So, I went in my office and I started thinking. I called my secretary and I said, "How can we get Bernardine in there and back? Ah. Let me call Sheriff”—um, what was his name? It’s Sheriff Mina now. But what I can't remember. There used to be a sheriff in—in—in—in Orange County. He ain’t[sic] have no neck. I remember [laughs] he—he—what was his name? I can't think of his name. Anyway, you know, because I‘d worked with the Red Cross and had a lot of interaction with the sheriff's department and him [sniffs], I called him. I said, you know, I'm going to [inaudible], “Sheriff, uh, the President of the American Red Cross is here, and I need to get her to Daytona Beach and back before 5:00 so she can catch her flight out of here at the airport.” He said, "Give me ten minutes. I'll call you back." He called back. He said, "Okay, meet me at the—we’ll meet you—meet you—the three of you—the two of you meet me at, uh—meet my helicopter at the International Air, um—the Executive Airport . The Executive Airport. And we're going to fly over." She get—so, I called Dr. Bronson—my good friend Dr. Bronson. Before I used to work there, you know, he's president. He's my alma mater president. “Dr. Bronson. Um, we will be coming to Daytona Beach. Um, the—the pilot tells me we're going to need to land on the football field. So, I need you to be there to greet Dr. Healey.” And he was standing there all proud with a couple of his, um, vice-presidents waiting with him. And they were sitting there and the helicopter landed. So, the three of—the two of us got out[sic] the helicopter and Dr. Bronson leaned over. He said, "How did you get—how did you get this done? How'd you get this done?” The helicopter stayed on the field. We went and visited, uh, the Mary McLeod Bethune House. Dr. Healey was so impressed by the fact that, you know, she started the first hospital for African Americans, not just a school. She started a hospital for African Americans in Daytona Beach. She founded the Red Cross chapter. She was on the first Negro—Negro, uh, committee for the Red Cross, if you will. Advisory committee for the Red Cross. You know? All of that. She learned so much that day. We used to have a very large national convention. They don't do it anymore because it got to be too costly, but we sometimes will have 10,000 people at a convention. Well, the convention following that particular visit, which was only about a couple of months later, she opened up her presentation by introducing the mother of the Red Cross. And she had this huge picture. Well, you know, she was on the screen. They were on screens. Huge screen—on the screen. She had Mary McLeod Bethune. This is the mother of the American Red Cross. And I want you to understand why. And so, she went through all the history of why Mary McLeod Bethune and all the stuff—the things that she had done with the American Red Cross and all the things she had done in politics and the like. So, that was really exciting to be able to see that. I was so proud of that, you know? Being able to—and then, um, I had one of my staff members come over and pick me up because he had to fly her back to the airport airport, um, to, um—or, um, to MCO so that she could, uh, fly out on the plane. So, one of my staff members came and got me and we drove back to [laughs] to Daytona—I mean drove back to Orlando [laughs]. Yes. But that was an exciting trip, too. Yeah. So, that's my—that's my touches with presidents. And—and some folk who have really made a significant difference I think in my life. Certainly in my experience. And I—and I really appreciate all of it. Cravero Mr. Hutcheson, thank you so much for sharing your time and speaking with us. Um, we answered all the questions I had for you. Hutcheson Mhmm. Cravero Is there anything else you'd like to ex—expand on or add? Do you have any final thoughts for us before we wrap up? Hutcheson Well, um, since this might be a reel that, um—that one day someone else will see, I'll say to my son, Sumner Hutcheson IV, “See? I did it.” He always used to say to me, “I—either you need to write a book, or you need to do a video on the family.” You know? And there are many other things about the family I'm sure I missed in the process. I should have maybe brought a list myself of some things but—but quite honestly the pride is there. Um, we've[sic] always were told to be very prideful. People always wonder. They always still say to me, “Sumner, you used to walk in a room and the whole room would stop at the Red Cross.” That's what they said. Like it appeared—it felt like the whole room would stop. I said, “Because my father told us you walk with your shoulders back. You stand up straight.” And I still try to do it even though I'm getting so old now. Older. I, you know—as you get older sometimes you start leaning. But, um, uh—but, um, try to still do that. I think that's very, very important that there are so many very positive stories. Um, I will tell you just go—I'm—I'm going to go back to Brownsville again. Um, so I have my doctor [knocks table], who grew up two blocks from me. His parents were teachers and principals in the Dade County school system. I have, um, unfortunately, Emmett, um, Williams, who just passed about two or three months ago. He was actually a professional, uh—I think he did promotion of actors because he lived in New York and did that very, very well. Um, uh, we've got, uh, people who've grown, um—some of my friends, who were, um—one of my other friends teaches at Prairie View as a—as a—as a nursing—over the nursing department. Prairie View in Texas. Uh, I mean I can just go on and on with that list. I got a friend by the name of Milton Vickers , who, uh, we used to ride the streets with. And, um, on our bicycles. And, uh, he's done a lot of things in his own business and also for Miami-Dade County, working in the county over there. So, I mean those stories go on and on. And we’ve got so many people in that community that—who have done extraordinary things. And, um—and Brownsville needs to be recognized as that [claps hands]. It, um—it produced some extraordinary individuals. And I—I'm a little humble. I don't usually get chance to talk about myself very much, but [taps chest three times] I'm blessed [laughs]. So, thank you very much. Cravero This has been Geoffrey Cravero with Sumner Hutchinson at the University of Central Florida on September 15th, 2025. African American history American Red Cross Barry University Bernadine Patricia Healy Bethune-Cookman University Brown Sub Brownsville Cuban Americans Cuban Missile Crisis de-segregation discrimination Florida International University football George Walker Bush Good Bread Alley Hutcheson Home Appliance Store integration Jackson's Toddle Inn John Fitzgerald Kennedy Key West, Florida Latino community Lyndon Baines Johnson Marcus Mosiah Garvey Jr Mary Elizabeth Alexander Dole Mary McLeod Bethune Mary McLeod Bethune Home Miami Jackson High School Miami-Dade County Miami, Florida Operation Big Vote Overtown, Florida Peace and Justice Institute segregation Sumner Hutcherson III Sumner Hutcheson Sumner Hutcheson IV Sumner Hutcheson Jr swim team https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka/files/original/efd5049d910182e50916c3c85f53df44.pdf b46eaec4a1988206e0a961500df2e88d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title UCF Community Veterans History Project Collection Description As part of RICHES of Central Florida, UCF intends to record, archive, and make accessible oral history interviews of Central Florida veterans. Diversity is a main focus for this project since there are many different subgroups under the group veterans, all with important stories. While the histories will be largely archived and made available through the UCF library, a portion will be contributed to the ongoing Veterans History Project based out of the Library of Congress. Contributor <a href="http://library.ucf.edu/about/departments/special-collections-university-archives/" target="_blank">Special Collections and University Archives</a>, University of Central Florida Libraries, University of Central Florida Alternative Title CVHP Collection Subject Veterans--Florida United States. Army Army United States. Navy Navy United States. Air Force Air Force United States. Marine Corps Marine Corps Is Part Of <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>. Language eng Type Collection Coverage Jacksonville, Florida Orlando, Florida Honolulu, Hawaii Pearl Harbor, Hawaii Great Lakes, Illinois Long Island, New York Newport, Rhode Island Norfolk, Virginia Germany Qaasuitsup, Greenland Keflavik, Southern Peninsula, Iceland Azores Islands, Portugal Mediterranean Sea Contributing Project <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a> Curator Cepero, Laura Digital Collection <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a> Source Repository <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida External Reference "<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">About the Project</a>." UCF Community Veterans History Project, RICHES of Central Florida, University of Central Florida. http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/. Has Part <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/109" target="_blank">Lone Sailor Navy Memorial History Project Collection</a>, UCF Community Veterans History Project, RICHES of Central Florida. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title Oral History of Philip Rogers Alternative Title Oral History, Rogers Subject Veterans--Florida Navy Orlando (Fla.) Description An oral history interview of Philip Rogers (b. 1953), who served in the U.S. Navy from 1978 to 1998. Rogers was born in the Bronx borough of New York City, New York, in 1953. He attended Lehman College for undergraduate school and Indiana University for graduate school. In May of 1978, Rogers was commissioned as an officer and assigned to teach engineering at the Nuclear Power School at Naval Training Center Orlando (NTC Orlando). After four and a half years, he became an Engineering Duty Office in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. This interview was conducted by Killian Hiltz in Orlando on November 14, 2014. Interview topics include Rogers' background, becoming a commissioned officer, teaching at the Nuclear Power School at NTC Orlando, serving as an Engineering Duty Officer in Pearl Harbor, serving in the Naval Reserves, advanced training, the USS Nathan Hale, the Cold War, the University of Central Florida (UCF), his wife and family, and the terrorist attacks on September 11th, 2001. Table Of Contents 0:00:00 Introduction 0:00:31 Background 0:03:05 Becoming a commissioned officer 0:09:02 Pearl Harbor, Hawaii 0:10:41 Naval Reserves 0:11:36 Advanced training and the USS Nathan Hale 0:15:24 Hawaii 0:17:26 Making suggestions and dry docking 0:18:37 Transition from active duty to Reserve 0:20:03 Naval mentors 0:22:09 Ronald Reagan, the Berlin Wall, the Cuban Missile Crises, and Bill Clinton 0:24:39 Final years in the Reserves and civilian life 0:25:54 Civilian attitudes towards the military 0:26:48 University of Central Florida and wife 0:29:06 Terrorist attacks on September 11th, 2001 0:30:08 Lessons learned from the Navy and benefits of joining 0:32:48 Migrating to Orlando and working at UCF 0:34:29 Closing remarks Abstract Oral history interview of Philip Rogers. Interview conducted by Killian Hiltz in Orlando, Florida, November 14, 2014. Type Moving Image Source <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/503/rec/1" target="_blank">Rogers, Philip</a>. Interviewed by Killian Hiltz, November 14, 2014. Audio/video record available. Item DP0016191, UCF Community Veterans History Project, Naval Training Center Orlando, Orlando, Florida. Requires <a href="http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/" target="_blank">Adobe Flash Player</a> <a href="http://java.com/en/download/index.jsp" target="_blank">Java</a> <a href="https://get.adobe.com/reader/" target="_blank">Adobe Acrobat Reader</a> Is Part Of <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, Naval Training Center Orlando, Orlando, Florida. <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/24" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project Collection</a>, RICHES of Central Florida. Has Format 20-page digital transcript of original 35-minute and 37-second oral history: <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/503/rec/1" target="_blank">Rogers, Philip</a>. Interviewed by Killian Hiltz, November 14, 2014. Audio/video record available. Item DP0016191, UCF Community Veterans History Project, Naval Training Center Orlando, Orlando, Florida. Conforms To Standards established by the <a href="http://www.loc.gov/vets/" target="_blank">Veterans History Projects</a>, Library of Congress. Coverage Bronx, New York City, New York Washington, D.C. Naval Training Center Orlando, Orlando, Florida Pearl Harbor, Hawaii Jensen Beach, Florida University of Central Florida, Orlando, Florida Creator Rogers, Philip Hiltz, Killian Publisher <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a> Date Created 2014-11-14 Date Issued 2015-02 Date Copyrighted 2014-11-14 Format application/website application/pdf Extent 306 MB 196 KB Medium 35-minute and 37-second Digital (DAT) audio/video recording 20-page digital transcript Language eng Mediator History Teacher Civics/Government Teacher Geography Teacher Provenance Originally created by Killian Hiltz and Philip Rogers. Rights Holder <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a> Accrual Method Item Creation Contributing Project <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a> Curator Cepero, Laura Digital Collection <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a> External Reference "<a href="http://cfnavyleague.org/lone-sailor/" target="_blank">The History</a>." Lone Sailor Navy Memorial History Project. http://cfnavyleague.org/lone-sailor/ "<a href="http://rtcorlando.homestead.com/" target="_blank">The History</a>." RTC Orlando. http://rtcorlando.homestead.com/. <a href="http://www.lonesailorfl.com/" target="_blank">A Guide to Historic Orlando</a>. Charleston, SC: History Press, 2006. Click to View (Movie, Podcast, or Website) <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/503/rec/1" target="_blank">Rogers, Philip</a> Transcript Hiltz Today is, um—it is November 14th, 2014. I am interviewing Mr. Phil—Philip Rogers, um, who served in the Navy from 1978 through—to 1998. Mr. Rogers served as an instructor at the Naval [Nuclear] Power School. Uh, he retired as a Commander. My name is Killian Hiltz, I am interviewing, uh, Mr. Rogers as part of the UCF [University of Central Florida] Veterans Community History Project. We are recording this interview, uh, at Orlando, Florida. Um, thank you, Mr. Rogers. Um, uh, where and when were you born? Rogers I was born in the Bronx[, New York City], New York, uh, in 1953. Hiltz Uh, what was your childhood like? Rogers Uh, grew up in a modest, you know, tenant apartment. Went to public schools, um, two years of private schools, went—and then Lehman College, which is a ci—city school. Did that, uh—did that for, you know—through—and then I worked a little bit. Um, and probably when I was like 22, I went off to graduate school in Indiana. Hiltz Um, what was the private school like? Rogers It was good. It was a little more disciplined. The schools I was[sic] in was[sic] a little rough, so my parents took me out to a more, you know—less chance of getting hurt [laughs]—school. Um… Hiltz Um, what was, um—what was college like, for you? Rogers I liked it. I was a commuter. I went back and forth on the train, uh, eh, because we didn’t have a car. So we—I travelled on the train to high school and to college for eight years. Uphill both ways—just joking [laughs]. Um, uh, so I traveled that way, uh, and did my four years there, and I got a degree in chemistry from, eh, um, Lehman College. Hiltz Uh, you mentioned that you went to graduate school, as well. Rogers Yes. Hiltz Uh, what was your gra—what was your grad… Rogers Uh, I got a Master’s degree in chemistry, entomology, from Indiana University. I was in the PhD<a title="">[1]</a> program, but when the Navy came looking for people, I kinda said, Well, I wanna do that. so I kinda left with a Master’s degree and went on to, uh, um—the, um—took the Master’s and then went on to the Navy. Hiltz Um, what did your parents do for a living? Rogers My father was a laborer, worked in a baker[sic], and my mother was just stay-at-home—stay-at-home mom. Hiltz Did you have any siblings? Rogers Brother. Still have a brother. Actually, he lives in Orlando. So… Hiltz Uh, did, uh—your brother also join the service? Rogers No, no. He never did. No. Hiltz Um, did, uh—did anyone in your family before you, uh, serve as enlisted or commissioned? Rogers Yes, my father was—was, um, enlisted in, uh, World—World War II. Um, and my grandfather was in World War I. Hiltz Uh, what branches did they serve? Rogers Army. Both of them, Army. Hiltz Uh, did they see combat? Rogers Uh, yes. Both of them did. Uh, my—In fact, my grandfather had a Purple Heart, and, uh, my father didn’t get a medal, but he had—he had some kind of foot injury or something, but—yeah. So… Hiltz Uh, uh, what caused you to become a commissioned officer? Rogers Well, it was a—it’s a long story. It was like, um— let’s see. Indiana University—it’s kind of cold up there—Bloomington, Indiana. It was like six degrees below zero [sniffs], and, uh, the Navy had a little brochure says—saying, “Would you like to fly to Orlando on the Navy this weekend?” Free. Orlando, Florida. So I said, “Sure.” I had no intention to go into the military—zero. So I went, “Okay. Fine.” so I signed up, and then I had to go take some tests, you know—you know, academic tests and physical tests, and, uh—and then they said,”Well, You know, Admiral [Hyman George] Rickover,” who is the Father of the Nuclear Navy, “would like to interview you in Washington D.C.,” you know, “Would —you—would you like to go?” So they sent me to—first, let’s go back up. Before I went there, they—they told me I was going for an interview. So they showed me the school—so they sent me down here as promised for the trip down here, so I went to the trip in Orlando, and it was great. [Walt] Disney World—they took us to Disney World and showed us—the Nuclear Power School, by the way, was in Orlando, at that time, okay? Just up the road here, by Bennett Drive. Um, so they showed me the school, and it was like 80 degrees. It was really nice. They hooked me in, so I’m like, I’d like to go there. It was—it was an academic job, because, you know, I liked teaching, and it was an academic job, and, you know, I would get paid a lot more there as a graduate student, than as a graduate student. So, uh—so I said, “Okay. It sounds good to me.” So then I went to Washington D.C., uh, for an interview, and, uh, one thing you got to understand that in that the nuclear—in the nuclear program, it’s kind of a select program, and that the admiral that is in charge—the four-star admiral is about as high as you can go in the Navy. He interviews all the applicants, you know, that—that—that come into the program, and so you go there for a day of tests. Take a bunch of written tests, oral exams. They ask all kinds of physical questions, and—and then they ask how to explain things and they do that, and at the end, you go see Admiral Rickover—Hyman Rickover. So I go into this guy’s office, and he’s a four-star admiral, and he’s sitting in a chair. Very little man, probably 5’5”, uh, white grey hair, he was about 78, at the time, and, uh, he—so I sat down. I had long hair, I was a graduate student, I had no inkling of military at all in me. So I sat down, and, uh, the Admiral says to me, I had an American Chemical Society pin on me and the Admiral says to me— um, I had an American Chemical Society pin on me, right? So the Admiral says to me, “Wha—what’s that? What’s that pin on your, uh, lapel there?” So I took it off and I said, “Well, um, this means I’m a member of the American Chemical Society.” And he jumped at me, and he says to me like this—he says, “Let me see that blicity pin.” ‘Kay? I don’t want to put any expletives on this tape, but he—but, uh, he said, uh, um, “Let me see that pin.” so I put it in his hand, and—and he said—looked at me in the eye—and he goes, “How do you know I know more chemistry than you do? Maybe I should keep this pin.” And I said, “Admiral, if that’s the case, then you can get your own pin.” Then he threw is back at me, and then he says, uh, “Did any of the girls tell you that you were good-looking?” I said, “Sure. All the time.” He says, “That’s a proposition. You don’t even know the facts of life. Get out of my office.” So this was my interview with a four-star admiral. So I said, Well, I dunno. I guess I didn’t get that job. So I Walked down the hall, and this captain, that[sic] went in there with me, said, “Congratulations. The Admiral selected you to be an instructor at Nuclear Power School.” So I said, “Great.” so I signed up, finished my—my dissertation for my Master’s degree, and then I, uh—I came down to Orlando. Went—went to some school—uh, Officer School—Officer Indoctrination School, and then I came to Orlando in 1978. I was commissioned in March of 1978, I believe, and, um, —then I, Um, uh, came to or—Orlando in May. Went—went to some—in the school—I went to the school in between then about six weeks. So I—I arrived down here in like May of 1978—in Orlando, and I spent the next four and a half years here. Hiltz Uh, what was your officer, uh, training like? Rogers It wasn’t the standard training that—that you’d normally get. It’s kind of like training—‘cause we weren’t expected to stay in the Navy. We were expected to go in for our four, you know—our—our—our four-year promise, and then leave, Right? So it was very watered down, so to speak. It was not very rigorous as some—some. It was like the same training lawyers get, the doctors get, and—and nurses, the—the professional, you know—the training the professionals gets. It’s [inaudible] how do you—how you act like an officer, and—and, you know—so nothing—nothing too, uh, exotic. Hiltz Uh, what was your family and friends; reaction to you becoming a commissioned officer? Rogers Well, that was funny, because my father was enlisted and he—he had some grumbling about officers. He goes, “I remember—I remember this officer made me salute him.” He goes, “He was a big jerk. I hope you’re not like that.” So [laughs]—so he was a little—he was proud, but yet, he was saying, you know, you gotta be a little humble, you know, when you’re doing this stuff too. So—But I think he was proud that—that I went in there, you know, and—and did it. So, like I said, I had no— I just did it, because hey, it was great. I wanted to go teach and the Navy’s got this job to go teach, you know? I said, I’m not staying in. I said, Honest, no way I’m staying, you know? So then I did my four years. I taught thermodynamics, I taught nuclear physics, you know, regular classical physics, I taught chemistry, radiological—all the stuff, and the thing about that Nuclear Power School: they—they teach you how to teach a class, you know? They teach you how to talk to people, how to make eye contact, how to go back and forth and relate information. I still carry that—that talent to this day, with how they taught me how to do that. So, it was really—it was really good. So I really had—it was the best job of my life. I mean, it was, you know, basically, a day job. No deployment—nothing. It was great for four years. You know, unfortunately, you know, after four years, they want you to leave, ‘cause in the Navy, you get to move up or you move out. So—so that’s what happened. Hiltz ‘Kay. So, uh… Rogers [sniffs]. Hiltz What happened after those four years? Rogers Well, after four years, normally, you get out, right? And this was right at the height of the Cold War, ‘round 19—it was around 1982, and they needed people with engineering background—not necessarily ship driving experience, but with some engineering background, and some knowledge of chemistry, physics—To work on shipyards, to help when the ships—Submarines come in [sniffs]. They help the submarines get ready for sea, and—and fix them, and things like that—to oversee that. So they asked if, you know, I would like to go do that, and I said, “Eh, I’ll think about it,” and then they said, “Would you like to go to Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, and do it?” [laughs]. So I said, “Hm. Okay. I’ll—that sounds good to me.” So I did—I went into what is called the “Engineering Duty Officer Program,” so I went in—which is basically engineering. I—I was very restricted, because I’m colorblind. Eh, when I took my physical, I was actually—they determined that I was colorblind, so I could not drive a ship. So I was restricted as to what I could do. So, I mean—but I could do the engineering stuff, so I was—I became a Restricted Line Officer, which means you don’t drive the ships, but you can do a lot of other things naval officers do. So—so I did that. I was—I went to Submarine School after that, I went to Engineering Du—Duty Officer School, and Nuclear Ship Superintendent School, which show you—show you how to manage repairs of a ship. Not that I would do the repairs myself, but I oversee the people doing it, right? And interface with the ship, as a—as a representative from the Navy to get[?] that, and I did that for about—about, uh, three years, right? And then—it was okay, but it wasn’t teaching. I really wanted to teach. Um, so what—what I did after that time is: I—I—I got out of the Navy in 1986, but I stayed in the [Naval] Reserves, uh, as a—as a[sic] Engineering Duty Officer. Oh, also, on that time while I was on active duty, I got my Engineering Duty Officer Dolphins, which is, you know specialized in submarine repair, and then, after that, um, I got out of the Navy and tended my resignation, but I stayed on—I stayed in the Reserves, and then, I came down to, uh—went down to, um, South Florida. I took a job at a nuclear power plant. I was an instructor, right? Teaching down there, and I stayed in the Reserves, and I drilled for the next 12 years. I—I drilled, uh—drilled my—my—from Jensen Beach, which is about 130 miles from here, to Orlando. I drilled every week—once every week—and two weeks a year, and I—I went up through the chain there, [inaudible], and got my rank there, up to—and made Commander in the Reserves in 1994. Hiltz Uh, what, uh—what was your schooling like, when you were going through the Submarine and Engineering [Duty Officer] Schools—Oh, um, when you were still in the active? What was that like? Rogers Oh, that was, uh—it wasn’t—I mean, it was okay. It was a—was a—it was kinda challenging, because, Uh, you had to—you had to go and know—know how to—and they put you in a room, and they start leaking the pipes, and, you know, you gotta, you know, repair the pipe, so you don’t drown and stuff like that, and then, you know that—you learn a little bit about navigation and how to—how to basically, uh, go through it. I was a little bit senior. I was a Lieutenant when I went through, and most of them were ensigns that[sic] went through there, but, Uh, you know, it was basically how to respond to emergencies on submarines, and then, you know, dive the ship up and down. I was able to do that[?]. I did a—I was able to surface the ship and dive the ship. I did that several times on the simulator and—and in real life— in a real submarine. You know, and one thing that I did not—I neglected to mention is that I was on a submarine for two months, as part of my qualification program. So I was on the Nathan Hale, and we went out—and I can’t tell you where we went—but we went out somewhere in the ocean, and we had missiles on the ship. Uh, we—that was a deterrent patrol that I had to go through to get my qualification, you know, to do that. Hiltz Yeah. Rogers So—and then—then that’s [inaudible]. Nuclear Ship Superintendent School is very technical. It was like how to ma—manage radiation. The Navy is very sensitive to—to nuclear safety and the shipyards have to be—everything perfect. So they want people who are going to follow the rules and know what they’re doing. So they send us to special school to—to kinda—to kinda help us understand how to manage this[sic] nuclear, uh, projects at the shipyard. Hiltz Uh, what, uh— was your, uh—the submarine’s class? Do you—do you know? Rogers Yes, it’s a—it’s a—it was an SSBN [Nuclear Power Ballistic Missile Submarines]. It was a ballistic nuclear submarine, uh, it’s since, has been way since decommissioned. It was a pretty old ship, when I was on it Um, so it carried x number of missiles, and, uh, I ‘m not sure if that is classified anymore, but it’s so many missiles, and what we did was just go out there and wait—wait for launch orders, which, thankfully, never came. So I never really fought in hot war, but I was in the Cold War, which kinda was preventing the big war [laughs]. So… Hiltz Um, what was it like—what was life like on the submarine? Rogers Um, it was very, uh, interesting. It was kind of lonely. Uh, Now, I knew I was only going to be on it for like one patrol, so it was okay, you know? It was interesting. Got to do some—some interesting things, but, for the most part, you really eat a lot. They have—they have—you can eat up to four times a day. It’s just like a cruise ship, but you work [laughs], right? So you have breakfast, you have lunch, you have dinner, and then you have MIDRATS [Midnight Rations] at night, depending on your shift. They always got meals going on in a submarine, so you can eat, eat, eat, and I actually gained 15 pounds, you know, on the submarine, you know? So it was a—it was a bit of a weight curve, trying to get the weight off [laughs], but, uh, you know, it was good. I got the up and down—A lot of stuff in the submarine, you don’t know everything, because a lot of it’s classified, like what they targeted—the stuff—I couldn’t see that. So I never knew where we really were at. So it was all a part of, you know—it was kind of a tense time, with the Cold War. We were in secret locations and stuff like that. Hiltz Uh, what was the crew like? Rogers Crew was good. I mean, they were—they knew I was a short-timer, so they—they kidded me around a little bit, and—and—‘cause they knew. They called me the “rider.” You know, and they said, “You’re just in your rack all day. That’s all you do. You don’t do real work.” but they were kinda—they were in a kidding type of way, right? And I was called—they called me the “assistant engineer.” So I—I—I oversee some training lessons and did stuff like that for them, but I stood the watch. You know, on the submarine ship, you stand a watch, you’re—you’re good, because, uh, somebody else doesn’t have to stand the watch for diving officer. I did that. So, uh… Hiltz Uh, what was your time in Hawaii like? Rogers Oh, it was great. It was, uh, beautiful—the most beautiful places on Earth. It’s, uh—nice mountains, and the job was pretty stressful—getting the ships out—because, like I said, this is the height of the Cold War, and the ships came in. they had to get repaired in a certain window, Because there are only so many submarines out there. One comes in, and, uh, they only got coverage for a certain amount. So you gotta get that ship out on time, and if it’s not on time—not out on time, some people up high up don’t get too happy about that. So we gotta make sure that everything’s done timely and safely. So not only—and we just couldn’t—since it’s a nuclear submarine—First of all, nuclear submarines can be hazardous in themselves, and you got reactors on ‘em, and you gotta be extra special careful with respect to nuclear safety, and so sometimes, some things take a little longer than you might anticipate. So, uh, you always have that—you always have that bal—and I was in charge, so if the ship was late, it was on me. You know, I had to answer for it. So... Hiltz Uh, did, uh—did you ever have any incidents happen, during that time? Rogers Well, yeah. Um, I was on one submarine. When—when I was in the shipyard, we occasionally had to go out ride submarines when—after repairing them, and then one of the hydraulic plants went on fire. So it was a submarine underwater, and it was on fire, but the crew is so trained. It was like, “Okay. Fine.” Just like training—t was no different than when we had the training. We went over there, swoosh, they put it out, and then we—we went on to eat for lunch. So it was like okay. They were very seasoned, very seasoned crew. Um, the chiefs in the Navy—they really—I was an officer, but the chiefs in the Navy—they, you know—they run the show. They—they get the people to do the work, and so my admiration is for the chiefs, you know, [inaudible] folks. They’re—they’re the ones that make it happen, you know? We get the credit, most of the time. Sometimes, we get the blame, as the officers, but that’s kind of the way it is, but they’re the ones that—the enlisted guys—they’re the ones that[sic]—that[sic] make it work. So my father kind of sent me a lesson, when he said, “You’re gonna—you’re gonna be this hotshot officer, but you’re going to learn who does the work.” And I did. Hiltz Uh, do you have any, uh, moments that stand out, during your time in, um, Hawaii or Orlando? Rogers Um, well, one day, uh—well, I can say that, at the end, I—I—I made a suggestion to move the repair somewhere where it would be cheaper or a little more cost-effective, and—and still do it safely, and that—they—they actually listened to me and did it. So when I left—I don’t know how that went, but it wa—it did save some money. So that was—that was a good, good part of it, uh—good part of it, but a lot of that—I remember it was a lot of stress on that, but—but that was a good part of it, at—at—at—at the end there. So—and I would still dock ships, you know—dry docked ships that come into the shipyard, and a dry dock is: you—you—you bring a ship in, and to work on the hull of a ship, you can’t—can’t be in the water, right? So you—you put the ship on blocks, you drain the dry dock down, and then you go into the ship, and you do what you gotta do, back—and back up. Then you put the water back in, and then you float the ship out, but Putting the ship on blocks is a—a, you know—a very engineering-involved thing. So, as the docking officer, I had to do the calculations to make sure the ship would sit on the block right and stay there, and do all those calculations and stuff. Hiltz ‘Kay. Um, so, um, coming back now to, uh, your—your—how was your transition from being active duty to Reserve? Rogers Uh, not really—not really, um,—because I never had too many deployments, so I was always with my family. Like I said, I had a[sic] atypical career. I [inaudible] —I had it good, really. Um, so I didn’t have a lot—other than that one deployment, right? So when I went to Reserves, you know, I really was away from home more in the Reserves than when I was active duty, ‘cause I would have to drive to Orlando on—on the weekends, And then the two weeks a year, uh, I mean, again, I was with a lot of engineers. I had in my group, we had like PhDs, we had, you know, professional engineers. All highly, you know—highly educated people that[sic] worked for NASA [National Aeronautics and Space Administration], or worked for the [John F. Kennedy] Space Center, or whatever, and then they did the Reserves stuff, you know, on the side, ‘cause they were—they had this engineering background. So I didn’t find too much of a, uh—uh, a transition. I went from a kind of academic environment, uh, to that. Now, I had a little more experience than a lot of the Reserves, ‘cause I actually was a[sic], uh, active duty—engineering duty officer, and a lot of them just came in the Reserves. So I had a little—a little more experience actually being there. I had the qualifications for the Dolphins and stuff like that. So that helped me a little bit, you know, with getting my advancements, you know, as I—as I, you know, got promoted on. So I also had some good leaders that[sic]—that[sic] showed me the ropes in the Reserves. That—that really helped me. Hiltz Do you remember any of those? Rogers Oh, I do. I, uh—can I say their names? Hiltz Oh, yep. Rogers Or whatever? Hiltz Yeah. Rogers I remember one, uh—one key person that[sic] was a—was a, eh—he was a[sic] Admiral: Rear Admiral Steve Israel. He was, uh, a great mentor to me. Um, when I first came in the Reserves, he kinda took me under his wing, kinda showed me the—the life in the Reserves, and, uh—and we worked together. I worked within several of his units, when he was a—When I met him, he was a Commander, and then, as he went through, he became Captain, and then ultimately, he became—became an Admiral, and I still, you know, am still in contact with him, you know, to this day, but He was very, very—he was a [United States] Naval Academy graduate, very good about dealing with people, and stuff like that, and another person gr—Captain Jim Tully. I worked for him, and I took his Reserve unit when he—when he left that unit to go to another unit, I took over for him in, uh—in—for him, in that—in that capacity. So he always mentored me too, and he’s—he’s actually the Mayor of Titusville. Yeah. So [laughs]—but He’s great—he is one of the—one of the best leaders I’ve ever met, and one of the most, uh—most—talk about people—talk about people with integrity, and people in political office. Well, he’s got political office, and I don’t know anybody with more integrity than that man does have. He’s just amazing. So we still keep in touch. Yeah. So… Hiltz Do you, um—do you have any stories or memories from your—from your time in the—in the Reserves that stand out? Rogers Well, again, going back to the, you know—the enlisted people run the show. Uh, When I got—when I got command of my unit, I—I—I had a chief who was a Mensa [International]—high IQ [intelligence quotient] guy. Much smarter than I would ever be, and I asked his advice, you know, all the time, and that’s why my unit was so successful, and he helped me, give me advice on how to do things, and, you know, it went on from there. So I relied heavily on that. So I never—I never—I only made a couple of mistakes when I was a junior officer, thinking I knew it all, but that didn’t last out. Found out: the more senior I got, the less I thought I knew [laughs]. I knew more I had to rely on people that[sic] working[sic] for me. I mean, that’s the key to success. Um, and, uh—so—so that was very, very helpful. Hiltz Um, during—during the time in the Navy, um, did you, um—Um, what was—what was life like, um, in the [Ronald Wilson] Reagan years?<a title="">[2]</a> Rogers Oh, life was good. Reagan was president—in fact, I saw Reagan come in the airport in Hon—Honolulu[, Hawaii], and, uh, you know, I am a big Reagan fan. Uh, and, uh, ‘cause I, eh—we grew up to kinda get the Cold War—and one of the beautiful things was when I finally got into the Reserves, there—there—the war we were fighting, we really won it, because even though it wasn’t a hot war, the Soviet Union collapsed. We stood up to them and they’re gone. Now, they’re rattling their little sword again, but—but, at—at least at that time, they were—we—we won that. So, I mean, I liked the war. I felt like we had a strength in the nation for—for—for that, due to Reagan and the buildup—the buildup he did. I just kinda make the Russians<a title="">[3]</a>—“Well, we can’t keep up with this.” So… Hiltz Uh, how did the—the—in that case, how did the, uh—the breaking down of the Wall in Berlin[, Germany] make you feel? Rogers I thought it was great. I says[sic], “Wow. This is a great thing.” Because I grew up—when I grew up in the—in the [19]50s, the—the—I mean, I grew up during the Cuban Missile Crisis, and we thought we were going to World War III. I mean, it was right—right around the corner. I mean, my father was shaking and white ashen[?], ‘cause I looked at him—well, and I was only—what? I don’t know. 11—10 years old, or something like that, and—and it’s just like—he’s shaking white. Something—something’s going on here, and—and that was the closest we’ve—we’ve ever come, right? And, um—and there were some things—even during the Cold War, there were some things that happened, which we don’t want to go into, but, you know—but, for the most part, there was peace, right? So when the—when the [Berlin] Wall came down, Reagan said, “Tear down this wall,” and it happened. So that was—that was a good thing, and then, when, uh—I would never had believed it when it happened—they said the Soviet Union collapsed. It was like, Wow. Hiltz Um, in co—and in comparison, how are the [William “Bill” Jefferson] Clinton years in the Navy? Rogers Well, uh, Clinton—I mean, to a—see, Clinton was—he— ‘90s, uh, I got my senior—I think he signed my, uh—uh, my—my, uh—my promotion to Commander, and also he signed my discharge—my—my retirement paper, uh, in ’98, right? So—so I have some good—good, uh, Um, you know—He treated, you know, the military well too, you know? He was a smart, smart guy. Uh… Hiltz Um, how were your, uh, final years in the Navy, eh, eh—in the Navy Reserves? Rogers Good. Um, I mean, it was good. Uh, I was like—I had command of the unit, and then I was traveling so much back and forth, it was like, okay, you know? I was getting up for Captain, and I just decided that was time to, you know—time to—I didn’t make Captain the first pass. So I said, “Okay.” I had another chance, but I decided, you know, to get out. Um, so I decided just to—to go spend more time at my other job. Hiltz What was your other job, at that point? Rogers Oh, I worked at a nuclear power plant, teaching chemistry, physics. The same thing I did in Nuclear Power School, right? So—right. Hiltz So what was life like after the Navy? Rogers Well, it just went from teaching for the Navy and the submarine stuff and still have the resources—so it was really—To me, it wasn’t an abrupt end. It was a, uh, gradual transition over the years, ‘cause I was, uh, in active duty for eight years, Reserves for 12. So it was kind of a long—and then I—well, during the 12 years, I had my civilian job. So I—I kinda worked the two together, you know? Worked the two together. So—and As, you know, eh—as I went through my job, and I got more senior in the Navy, more senior in the Navy, and then got up there. I mean, Commander is pretty high up, I guess. So, you know… Hiltz Um, how did the Americans actually treat you, while you were in the Navy? Rogers The who? Hiltz The Americans. The civilians. Rogers The civilians? Oh, yeah. No problem. We didn’t have that Vietnam Syndrome, where, you know—where they—they spit on me or anything like that. Uh, I think today though—I mean, I think people are more appreciative of the military today, than they were even back when—when I was in there. I did used to do some recruiting for—for, uh, the Nuclear Power School, when I was at Nuclear Power School. I went out to the West Coast, and sometimes, I didn’t get a very friendly reception by the—the people on the campus at Washington University. Over there, they didn’t quite like my presence there. So—But I think today, I—I think the American people are more—are a lot more behind the troops. A lot more than compared to Vietnam [War] and even than when I was in. I think they realize what really they do for them. Hiltz Did you have any dealings with UCF at that time? Rogers I did actually. I, uh—I took a couple of classes here in 1982, when this campus was just a few buildings. So Industrial Chemistry, I took a few courses, because I was living in Orlando, and, you know, I just—I just did that. It didn’t end up in degree—I didn’t end up in a degree. I just have the classes. I think I have like 15 credits. Um, uh, Dr. [Gerald] Mattson—I think I had him, and I think he is still here, in the chemistry department. Um, so, uh—so I had that, and, you know, we were just kinda starting out. My wife was pregnant with our first child, and we—we came to UCF. She had to take an education course and sit in these little seats, you know, she could barely fit into it. It was kinda—we went together. She took a [inaudible] some education courses, and I did the chemistry stuff. So—so yeah. UCF is a little part of my time here. Hiltz Um, you mentioned your wife. Um, did you—you met her while you were in the Navy? Rogers Actually, I met my wife in Orlando, okay? Um, uh, when I was an instructor here, I worked with another instructor, and his wife worked at a school, and she knew somebody. So they set this up on a blind date, and, uh, I mean, that was it. We’re married for 34 years. Hiltz Fantastic. Um, did she go with you to, uh, Hawaii? Rogers Oh, yeah. You bet she did. Now, obviously—and, In fact, we were on the submarine. Um, they did a dependents’ cruise. Now, what a dependents cruise is: you can actually come on a submarine, right? They let the dependents come on the submarine. So she actually came on the submarine with her father, and we did, uh, some op[eration]s for them. We dove the ship, and surfaced the ship, and did all these things, and they got to eat. You know, so she comes in—she comes into the submarine. Now, on a submarine, you gotta understand: there’s a wardroom, just like this, and at the head of the table, there’s the Captain, and that’s the Captain’s chair. Nobody sits in the chair. So what does my wife do? She comes in and plops down right in the Captain’s chair, and I kinda say, “I don’t [inaudible] you need to sit there.” [laughs] So I rise her about that [inaudible], but she is probably one of the few ladies that[sic] were ever on a submarine—a nuclear submarine. Now, Of course, they are getting women into the program, but at that time, you know, she—she thought was kind of fun. So after being at sea for a little bit on the submarine, And then, I—she went off, and then shortly after that, I—I came back home. So that was—that kind of fun. Hiltz That’s fantastic. Um, um, how did the events of 9/11<a title="">[4]</a> effect you? Rogers Uh, I was pissed, right? I was really mad that we couldn’t—that something like that could happen here. Uh, and I don’t know. You can point fingers and blame, but, you know, I, eh—it—it’s just one of those things that we got to make sure it doesn’t happen again. Uh, it’s one of those—it ripped every American apart, you know, and—and including me. Now, I was actually retired already. Um, so I, um, was already done. Uh, I mean, I could have been called to active duty, but they didn’t. I’m too old already, I guess. So—so they didn’t bother, you know, calling me up, but, uh—so yeah. That was kind of… Hiltz Did you still have any, uh—were any of your friends still in the—in active… Roger Yeah, I think Captain Tully, that[sic] I talked to you about. I think he was still in at that time, and, uh, then he retired subsequently after that. So, um, yes. Hiltz Um, what was one of the most important lessons that you learned from the Navy? Rogers Uh, leadership. How to manage people and how to respect people, and just, of course, you just gotta—because you got all the stripes on doesn’t mean you know everything, and, I mean, that was the lesson my father tried to let me know before I went in there, and I did some stupid things. “Oh, I am in charge, because I’m an officer.” You know, I only did that once or twice, and then I remembered that I had better relying on the chiefs more, because they’re really the ones that really kinda know what’s going on [laughs]. So I did that. So a little humility’s a good thing. Hiltz Um, do you have any, uh, messages that you would like to tell the young people of America today? Rogers Uh, yeah, the military’s a great way to go, especially if you got some technological talent. Eh, you—that—that Navy instructor program is a great way to get in, serve your country four years. You don’t have to stay in. You can teach at the Nuclear Power School, you can teach [inaudible] people who are really willing to learn, and they have to be, and they are really good students, and you—you get to teach stuff, and you come away with some great teaching skills that, at the end of it—that you can—that you can use anywhere else, you know? So, you know, To this day, I could teach anybody off the street how—how a steam engine works and so they would understand it. So, I mean, it’s am—an amazing thing. So—so that’s—and don’t overlook that service. I mean, you know, my sons are likely not—not to go into it. I didn’t influence ‘em either way. One’s an engineer and one’s a—one’s a—a [inaudible] MBA [Master of Business Administration]. He’s got his MBA and he is a HR [human resources] manager over at Seaman’s[sp], so my sons are pretty successful, but I never influenced them to go one way or the other, but they’re proud of me that I did it. Like I said, I did not have the career that some of these guys out there. They really put their lives on the line, and I never really had to do that. I was never shot at, okay? Um, but I served my country the best I could, you know? But the guys that really—the guys that went into Iraq and Afghanistan, and it’s just amazing how they—they sacrificed—a lot of them—just so much: their lives, limbs, and everything else. It’s just—and—and—and did it, and they get—they get something—they get like their hand shot off, and they wanna go again, and go back and do it again. It’s just, you know—how do you—how do you instill that in our youth? That—that sense of duty. You know, it’s just a great, great thing. Not that they got hurt, but that they have this, uh—this dedication, and their patriotism for their country, and to do the right thing. Hiltz Um, uh, uh, um, what, um—How did you actually end up at UCF, after, um, your time in the Navy? Rogers [laughs] Well, I, um—a granddaughter comes into that. I was, uh—worked at the nuclear plant for 25 years. I—I retired from the Reserves in ’98, right? And in 2001, I went back to school again, got a Master’s degree—another Master’s degree—online, um, for—for, uh, education—online distance learning. So I did that for about—took me about four years to get it. I got that degree in 2006. Uh, and then finally, uh—Uh, what—what was your question again? Hiltz Oh, how did you end up at UCF? Rogers Oh, yeah. Okay. So I—I graduated—after 25 years, I, you know—I retired from—I retired from FPL [Florida Power & Light Company] and I got bored, okay? So when I got very bored, um, I decided to come back to work. So my granddaughter—we had a new granddaughter that[sic] lives down in, uh, Oviedo[, Florida], here. So they—I saw this job at UCF as a Safety Training Coordinator. When I’m training, it looks good to me. So I applied for that job. I got it, so we moved down here. So my wife’s a—a full-time grandma, babysitter type, you know—help out with the kid, and I—I come here. I like my job, I’m teaching, and I got something to do. I got a sense of purpose, other than sitting at home doing nothing. Hiltz Uh, what year did you guys, uh—did you come here? Rogers Uh, June 2013. So I haven’t been here that long. I’ve only been a UCF employee about a year and a half. Uh, you know, Two years it will be in June. So… Hiltz Well, congratulations. Rogers So… Hiltz [laughs] Um, is there anything else that, uh, we missed that you would like to talk about? Rogers No, I mean, I think you about hit all on the head. I mean, it’s all—in the military, it’s all about—it’s about duty, honor, country, leadership. I mean, everybody should kind of get that experience. Well, not for everybody. It’s not for everybody, and—and I don’t know if I would have gone in, if it weren’t for the nuclear program. I don’t think I would have enrolled to just go, you know, to drive a ship. I couldn’t have anyway, because of my—my color—they wouldn’t—they wouldn’t have accepted me in anyway, but because I had some academic potentials, they used me for that, right? So the Navy kinda used me for what talents I had, and—and so, you know, anybody can do that. Yeah. So it’s a great thing. My thanks is for all the people that[sic] have gone on, and—and help, and, today, that[sic] continue to serve. Hiltz Well, uh, thank you for your time. Uh, and thank you, um, on behalf of UCF and myself, for answering our, um… Rogers Yeah[?]. Hiltz For answering our questions and having this, uh, wonderful interview. Rogers Alright. Well, thank you very much. I appreciate your—your interview. Hiltz Thank you. Rogers Thank you. <div> <div> <a title="">[1]</a> Doctorate degree. </div> <div> <a title="">[2]</a> January 20, 1981 - January 20, 1989. </div> <div> <a title="">[3]</a> Correction: Soviets. </div> <div> <a title="">[4]</a> September 11th, 2001. </div> </div> 9/11 advanced training American Chemical Society Bennett Drive Berlin Wall Berlin, Germany Bill Clinton Bronx, New York City, New York Caribbean Crisis cold war colleges colorblindness Commander commissioned officers Community Veterans History Project Cuba Cuban Missile Crisis CVHP dependents' cruises deterrent patrols dry docks education educators Engineering Duty Officer Engineering Duty Officer Dolphin Program Engineering Duty Officer Dolphins Engineering Duty Officer School Father of the Nuclear Navy firefighting fires Florida Power & Light Company FPL Gerald Mattson Germany Hyman G. Rickover Hyman George Rickover Indiana University instructors Jensen Beach Jim Tully Killian Hiltz Lehman College mayors military education military spouses military training military wife military wives Nathan Hale nuclear power Nuclear Power Ballistic Missile Submarines nuclear power plants Nuclear Power School nuclear safety Nuclear Ship Superintendent School October Crisis Officer Indoctrination School OIS orlando Pearl Harbor, Hawaii Philip Rogers presidents Restricted Line Officer Ronald Reagan Ronald Wilson Reagan Safety Training Coordinator September 11th South Florida Soviet Union Soviets SSBN Steve Israel SU Submarine School submarines subs teachers terrorism terrorists The Missile Scare training U.S. Naval Reserve U.S. Navy UCF Union of Soviet Socialist Republics universities university University of Central Florida USS Nathan Hale USSR veterans Washington, D.C. William Jefferson Blythe III William Jefferson Clinton https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka/files/original/04510635174e81e5ea6f3d3a9146efca.pdf 662c717c7a532bcff96e4980fcd28e48 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title Student Museum and UCF Public History Center Collection Subject Museums--Florida Schools Elementary schools Grammar schools Sanford (Fla.) Description The Student Museum and UCF Public History Center Collection encompasses a broad range of materials and items ranging from the late 19th Century into the present. The collection includes artifacts, photographs, documents, videocassettes, and other historical records pertaining to the history of the Sanford Grammar School, the Sanford community through the years, and the history of teaching and learning within the United States from the 19th century to the 2010s. The Student Museum has collaborated with the University of Central Florida and established the UCF Public History Center (PHC). All of the Student Museum's collections are presently housed at the PHC. The goal of the PHC is to promote access to history through ground-breaking research connecting local to global, provide cutting-edge hands-on educational programs for students and visitors, and to engage the community in contributing to and learning from history. Contributor Student Museum UCF Public History Center Language eng Type Collection Coverage Sanford High School, Sanford, Florida Westside Grammar Elementary School, Sanford, Florida Sanford Grammar School, Sanford, Florida Student Museum, Sanford, Florida UCF Public History Center, Sanford, Florida Contributing Project Student Museum UCF Public History Center Curator Marra, Katie Cepero, Laura Digital Collection <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a> Source Repository Public History Center/Student Museum External Reference "Public History Center." Public History Center, University of Central Florida. "Student Museum." Seminole County Public Schools. http://www.scps.k12.fl.us/studentmuseum/Home.aspx. Alternative Title Student Museum and PHC Collection Is Part Of <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/44" target="_blank">Seminole County Collection</a>, RICHES of Central Florida. Has Part <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/32" target="_blank">General Photographic Collection</a>, Student Museum and UCF Public History Center Collection, Seminole County Collection, RICHES of Central Florida. <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/73" target="_blank">Seminole County Public Schools Collection</a>, Student Museum and UCF Public History Center Collection, Seminole County Collection, RICHES of Central Florida. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer McLaughlin, Ian Interviewee Richards, Storm Leslie Location Geneva, Florida Original Format 1 DVD/DAT recording Duration 19 minutea and 4 seconds Bit Rate/Frequency 125kbps Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title Oral History of Dr. Storm Leslie Richards Alternative Title Oral History, Richards Subject Oral history--United States Sanford (Fla.) Museums--Florida Grant writing Historic preservation--Florida Historic sites--Florida Longwood (Fla.) Walt Disney World (Fla.) Urban sprawl United States. Navy Navy Nuclear weapons Archaeology--Florida Urban development Archaeologists--United States Geographers--United States Conservation--United States Lake Monroe (Seminole County and Volusia County, Fla.) Tourism--Florida Traffic Description Oral history interview of Dr. Storm Leslie Richards, an archaeologist and environmental consultant for Storm L. Richards & Associates, Inc. Dr. Richards was born in Patuxent River, Maryland, on August 20, 1950, but his family migrated to Sanford, Florida, in 1953. He graduated from Seminole High School in 1969 and received his B.A., M.A., and Ph.D from the University of Florida in Tallahassee in 1973, 1978, and 1987, respectively. Dr. Richards also wrote the grant for the Sanford Grammar School, located at 301 West Seventh Street. This interview was conducted by Ian McLaughlin at Dr. Richards' home in Geneva on October 24, 2012. Table Of Contents 0:00:00 Introduction 0:03:25 Grant writing and rehabilitation for the Student Museum and Center for the Social Studies 0:07:21 Other historic preservation projects 0:09:18 How Seminole County has changed over time 0:12:45 Impact of Walt Disney World Resort 0:15:42 Father’s experience in the Navy 0:17:57 Closing remarks Abstract Oral history interview of Dr. Storm Leslie Richards. Interview conducted by Ian McLaughlin at Dr. Richards' home in Geneva, Florida. Type Moving Image Source Richards, Storm Leslie. Interviewed by Ian McLaughlin. UCF Public History Center. October 24, 2012. Audio/video record available. UCF Public History Center, Sanford, Florida. Requires <a href="http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/" target="_blank">Adobe Flash Player</a>. <a href="http://java.com/en/download/index.jsp" target="_blank">Java</a>. <a href="http://www.adobe.com/products/reader.html" target="_blank">Adobe Acrobat Reader</a> Is Part Of UCF Public History Center, Sanford, Florida. <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/31" target="_blank">Student Museum and UCF Public History Center Collection</a>, Sanford Collection, Seminole County Collection, RICHES of Central Florida. Has Format Digital transcript of original 19-minute and 04-second oral history: Richards, Storm Leslie. Interviewed by Ian McLaughlin. UCF Public History Center. October 24, 2012. Audio/video record available. UCF Public History Center, Sanford, Florida. Coverage Sanford Grammar School, Sanford, Florida Student Museum and Center for the Social Studies,Sanford, Florida UCF Public History Center, Sanford, Florida Walt Disney World, Lake Buena Vista, Florida Cuba Creator McLaughlin, Ian Richards, Storm Leslie Date Created 2012-10-24 Date Modified 2012-10-28 Format video/mp4 application/pdf Extent 46.9 MB 155 KB Medium 19-minute and 4-second DVD/DAT recording 6-page typed transcript Language eng Mediator History Teacher Civics/Government Teacher Geography Teacher Provenance Originally created by Ian McLaughlin and owned by UCF Public History Center. Rights Holder Copyright to this resource is held by the UCF Public History Center and is provided here by <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES</a> for educational purposes only. Accrual Method Donation Contributing Project UCF Public History Center Curator Cepero, Laura Digital Collection <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a> Source Repository UCF Public History Center/Student Museum External Reference "Public History Center." Public History Center, University of Central Florida. "Exhibits." Public History Center, University of Central Florida. "Student Museum." Seminole County Public Schools. "<a href="http://www.seminolehs.scps.k12.fl.us/" target="_blank">Seminole High School</a>." Seminole High School, Seminole County Public Schools. http://www.seminolehs.scps.k12.fl.us/. Sanford Historical Society (Fla.). <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/53015288" target="_blank">Sanford</a>. Charleston, SC: Arcadia, 2003. Click to View (Movie, Podcast, or Website) <a href="https://youtu.be/OjlBRZidNQ4" target="_blank">Oral History of Dr. Storm Leslie Richards</a> Transcript McLaughlin Alright, today is Wednesday, the 24th of October, 2012. It is 3:05 PM. I am with Dr. Storm [Leslie] Richards at his home in Geneva, Florida, and we’re going to discuss his experiences as related to historic preservation in Sanford, specifically concerning the Sanford Student Museum [and Center for the Social Studies]. Richards We moved to Sanford in 1953. My dad was in, uh, the Navy at the time, and, um, we came here, uh, when Sanford was a very small community. It was very agriculturally-oriented. Um, there were many, many schools in Sanford. Uh, I went to, uh, about four of them, uh, from about elementary school through high school—all in Sanford, and then I went to Seminole Community College,<a title="">[1]</a> which was what it was called at the time in the 1970s, uh, and got my Associate of Arts degree, and went on to the University of Florida and finished my Bachelor’s, Master’s, and Doctorate at, uh, the University of Florida in Gainesville. Um, did some graduate work at Tulane University, but, uh, for the most part, I was always at the University of Florida, and I had a very strong interest in historic preservation and archaeology and, uh, urban—urban development, and I think, uh, first time that I really became—became directly, um, associated with the school [inaudible] was I was asked to help write a grant. Um, he grant was originally through the Division of Historical Resources, which is part of Florida Department of State for doing architectural reconstruction and rehabilitation. Um, one of the things that came to me from the very, very beginning was that the school—the [Sanford] Grammar School was such a tremendous resource in terms of historically where[?] Sanford had been. It was constructed in 1907, I think—’02-’07, and, um, it had always been a real focal point for—for education for—for young kids, and I think, uh—I didn’t go to school there and—and I always remember the school having, uh, teeter-totters and having, um, jungle gyms and the having the maypole, uh, swing that the kids would swing around and stuff like that. It’s—it’s the kind of thing where you still remember the kids yelling and screaming, and just, uh, it was a very fun place. Um, academically, I can’t really speak for it, but, uh, I can remember that—that there was always a lot of activity there, and the school, uh, that I identified with the grant that I worked on was a very important hub for Sanford and for Seminole County to—to look at something historic and say that so many people had gone there and so many people’s lives had been involved. I just thought it was a wonderful focal point, um, to try to keep, and, uh, at that time, they were really the first time that they were getting into the notion of it being an historic properties, and being important for a museum, and—and I was just really, uh, excited about that for the kids to be able to go back and look at things the way they were a hundred years ago. McLaughlin All right. Um, in what capacity were you involved, specifically with the grant-writing process? Richards Um, because I was—I am a certified archaeologist, and I have a really strong background in historic preservation with the University of Florida and the Urban Re-Use and Planning Department, I was asked to—to come in and take a critical look at if the site was really historic. Now, it had already been designated on the [U.S.] National Register of Historic Places, which one would assume would make it very important, uh, but because it’s part of a district, um, that’s not necessarily the case, and you really want a building like that to stand on its own, be—because the importance not of just the neighborhood, but the importance of it being, uh, the structure that was there, uh, and so I put together, uh, all of the documentation on, uh, why it was historically important, and what it meant to the community, and why the state should look at it as being not just some local landmark, but as something that was important to the county and the State of Florida. So I wrote that up, and what really ended up happening was that the state looked at that and felt that there was enough merit there that it was designated on a, uh, state list of very important, uh, uh, schools for the State of Florida and it was designated as such with that important notice. I think that the other thing that I did was, uh, I contacted a number of commissioners and a number of people that had on a say on, uh—on how money was being spent, whether it was the school board of, uh, Seminole County, because it was certainly a focus of not just the City of Sanford, but the county also, uh, and told them the importance of preserving that, because at a certain point, older buildings have a way of just deteriorating to the point that they can no longer be used, and it takes an investment, and sometimes, that investment can actually cost more than—than new construction, you know? Rehabilitation’s a very expensive proposition, but what it does for a community, in terms of identifying the importance of a city, and importance of schools, and importance of looking at the people who got an education there and what they went on to do, and is—and it is far more important than any single dollar value. McLaughlin Right, I see. About how long did that process take from start to finish? From the beginning to the end[?]? [laughs]. Richards It took probably—the grants program probably took six months. McLaughlin Hm. Richards I think though the writing that I did, because I had a familiarity with it, was probably in days. McLaughlin [laughs]. Richards I’m very quick at what I do, and so I think I wrote the, uh, four- or five-page report of why it was important in—in a day or two days. McLaughlin Excellent, and what year was this again? Richards You know, I think it was probably about, uh, 10 or 15 years ago. I mean, it was probably in the [19]90s—[inaudible] or something like that. McLaughlin So like 90s? Richards Yeah. McLaughlin Right, and who all—do you remember which people from the museum you worked with? Richards Se—Serena [Rankin Parks] Fisher… McLaughlin Serena Fisher. Richards Uh, she was, you know—and I’ve known her for years and years before that, because she’s a geographer and an educator, and—and I’m a geographer also, and so I knew her from the Florida Alliance, um, which was a group of educators who try to—to convey the importance of educating children, and she was working the museum, and, uh, it was the kind of thing that I felt real honored to help her with, because of the possibility of helping people, and, uh, when you drive by the school even today, which I did, McLaughlin [laughs]. Richards Um, it’s one of those things that you can go look at and be proud that it’s still there, because it could be somebody’s patio brick, you know? McLaughlin Yeah. Richards And—and so it’s a real good place for kids to go and look at the way that things used to be. McLaughlin Excellent, and were there any other instances in Sanford, in which you helped with local preservation efforts? Richards Um, yes. Uh, the Hopper Academy, which was the African-American school, h, over near the stadium. Uh, I put together the environmental assessment and some of the feasibility studies for—for looking at the rehabbing of that and making that, uh, another focal point, and because it was a wooden building and it had a lot of decay, it was really difficult, and the neighborhood, uh, didn’t lend itself to, you know—there were a lot of transients in the area, and people were sleeping near—in the school, and people were doing a lot of things that were just destructive. I’m not sure that worked out as well as I would have liked, but it was a real, eh, effort for someone to go over there and say, “We’d like to see, you know this—this kept for the community,” and so I worked on that, and, um, also, when I was the senior planner with Seminole County and worked, um, on comprehensive planning, I—I worked very hard to try to get a conservation element that reflected the importance of archaeological and historic sites, um, in—in Central Florida and Seminole County. In—in the profession that I have now, we do an awful lot of work in Seminole County. Uh, we worked for the airport in Seminole—the Orlando-Sanford [International] Airport. We’ve identified historic sites and identified preservation, uh, concepts for them. [inaudible]. We’ve worked for the Division of Historic Resources on the railroad sites[?] that existed here that came from the 1900s, when they were shipping an awful lot of, uh, produce out throughout—throughout the state and throughout different parts of the country, and so I’ve, you know, worked a lot on different aspects on Seminole County on—on cultural[?] resource assessments and evaluations, uh, both historic and archaeological resources for the county, and provided information for the of State of Florida. McLaughlin Excellent, and here’s a little bit of a different question. In your experience working in Seminole County and living here and growing up, how has it changed environmentally? You—what do you think are probably the biggest ways that it’s changed? Richards You know, I think—the—the interesting part of that story—and it just hits me immediately—is how recently—this year, someone burnt down the big.<a title="">[2]</a> They got inside the tree and they lit it on fire, and you have a tree that is older than the for—the 1400s. Before [Christopher] Columbus and… McLaughlin Wow. Richards This country. McLaughlin [laughs]. Richards And the tree was there, and they burnt it up and destroyed it, and it was considered an “accident,” and it was considered of no great significance, and I can remember riding my bike out to the tree when I was a child from Sanford. It’s—it’s probably halfway between Sanford and Longwood on [U.S. Route] 17-92. Uh, I can remember there was a wonderful book written by [Elvira] Gardner, it was called Ezekiel’s Travels. McLaughlin Mmhmm. Richards And—and Ezekiel, a little black boy, rode his bicycle out to the big tree and they documented that in the 1930s. McLaughlin Wow. Richards You know, and—and—and they burnt this tree up and it was considered just kind of a… McLaughlin An accident. Richards An accident. So, uh—and I think that—it really has an impact, you know? McLaughlin Yeah. Richards The—the other thing that I can remember that’s changed so much is, when I was, uh, very young, I used to ride my bike down to the—the band shell, and to the, uh—to Lake Monroe, and used to fish there, and there used to be just the band shell, and just the sea wall, and in the last 25 years, you know, they’ve built, uh—they built hotels there, and, uh, they built, uh, mixed used development there. They have had varying degrees of non-success. McLaughlin [laughs]. Richards Uh, but it’s taken away much of the character, you know? I can remember when the zoo was in Downtown Sanford, and, you know, it was a very small zoo. Sorta not like the really nice complex that they have now, but—but Sanford was [inaudible], you know—libraries were there, and it was a place that—that kids went, and young people went, and it was just very different. The [Sanford] Civic Center was a big, big deal, and they had dances every week, and it was just, you know—it was just a place that people went all the time, and, uh, I don’t see that in Sanford anymore. I don’t see that. McLaughlin You think some of the character is gone? Richards I think—I think the character—and I think that, you know, its—its, um—its environment, and its, um—the neighborhood, and it’s, um—it’s just the changes that have taken place, you know? I can remember the parades in Downtown Park Avenue, and just, um, very large parades that everybody in the community got involved in, and we have something like that now, but [inaudible]—it’s just a, uh—an agglomeration of people with big bands, and—and crazy things happen from early afternoon to way late McLaughlin [laughs]. Richards [inaudible], and it’s just not something that I’m interested in participating in, you know? Probably there are a lot of people that do, but it’s—it’s just very different from when I was raised in Sanford. McLaughlin Yeah. As far as developmentally, what effect do you think that the arrival of like Disney Corporation<a title="">[3]</a> and things like that had on the change, if any? Richards Yeah, eh, Disney is a very large beast. McLaughlin [laughs]. Richards And it has a lot of beasts that, uh, have attracted to it—whether it’s the whale beast or the, you know, uh, any number of other international destinations that I think that it’s affected probably not just all of Florida, but the Southeast. It’s the number one tourist destination, you know, in the world, u, and I think it makes Interstate [Highway] 4, which used to be a wonderful opportunity to go to Orlando and you just got on the interstate and ten minutes later, you were in Orlando, and today, it’s, um—it’s questionable if it even functions at all. McLaughlin [laughs]. Richards You know, we have a—we have a toll road system, in which, uh, I was assigned to that. I was Deputy Director of the toll way [inaudible] before they actually started developing it, and it was supposed to relieve the traffic and make traffic a lot different in Central Florida, but Central Florida is so densely populated that it was probably nothing can significantly change that. You know, whether it’s a rail system that they won’t put in, it will cost billions of dollars, whether it’s increasing lanes on I-4, or whether the [Central Florida] GreeneWay builds out. It’s—it’s not going to make the quality of life significantly different, in my opinion, you know, but that’s just part of the price you pay. McLaughlin Yeah. Just out of curiosity, how many lanes did I-4 use to be? [laughs]. Richards You know, I think it was always six—divided six. McLaughlin Divided six? Richards Yeah, um, eh, it—it had fewer ramps. McLaughlin Mmhmm. Richards And so they put in more ramps and more access, and it’s—it’s—the speed is much quicker today than it’s ever been. Uh, the Fairbanks [Avenue] curb is a problem that people have been having for years, and everybody’s looking at the engineering and saying, “It’s got to be engineering.” They say, “It’s got to be, you know, your problems,” you know? People are traveling between their ears if they don’t pay attention to traffic, and that’s why we gotta have people at such a quick pace today, you know? It used to be if you made it to work at 8- 8:30, you know, or if you, you know, were just there. Now, everybody fills the building up at 10-to-8, and, you know, so consequently, everybody gets on the interstate and it’s as fast as they can go, and it reminds me a little bit of Atlanta[, Georgia]. McLaughlin Yeah. Richards You know, if you’re not doing 80 [miles per hour], you’re not getting there. McLaughlin [laughs]. Richards I think that the—I think that I-4 is quickly approaching that. If you’re not doing 70, you’re probably not going to make it. McLaughlin Yeah. Richards You know, that’s just part of reality, part of the [inaudible], and the—the—it’s the quickness of what happens today. It wasn’t like that in the, you know, 1960s. McLaughlin Okay, before we go, if you could—would you like to share the story about your father Richards Uh… McLaughlin And what he did at the Navy base? Richards We moved to Sanford in—in ’53. My dad was stationed in Jacksonville, um, before that in the, um—in the Navy, and—and when we moved here, my dad was a navigator bombardier and a mechanic, and when the first jets, which were the [Douglas] A-3D[ Skywarrior]s came from California, my dad was part of the crew that flew the jets from California to Florida. That was before the [North American A-5] Vigilantes, before the larger aircraft. These were, you know twin-engine jets, but their total design and their total purpose was, uh, to launch a, uh, nuclear strike, and—and art of what Sanford, you know—Orlando-Sanford Airport today has the bunkers that they kept the nuclear weapons in, and they were going to load onboard the A-3Ds and—and go to Cuba, and my dad was the slim pickins’ of the aircraft, because it was his job to arm the nuclear weapons—To go back in the bomb bays and arm the nuclear weapons with, uh, I guess a detonation device that you screwed in the—in the nose of the bomb, and that was his job. It—and it was very, very stressful, and you know, at the time, I can just barely remember—I guess I was probably about seven—six or seven years old that all these young kids from the Navy would come over to the house, and they would have parties and stuff, and—and what they were doing was, h, the vanguard of changing the world, if—if they had to, and they all agreed to that—that that’s what they were going to do, and my dad was a really big part of that, and I guess there’s—there’s some pride in that, but there’s also some looking back and saying, “Is this really where we were?” You know, and [inaudible], and I know today—you know, 2012—we’re still talking about the Cuban Missile Crisis and trying to figure out what really happened, and when you think about the people that were going to do whatever they were told to do, you know, there’s a lot of frighteningness[sic] there, and there is a lot of, Have we gone that far? Or, Are we still in the same place? I kinda think about that occasionally. McLaughlin Do you have any other thoughts about Sanford or Seminole County or the Student Museum that you would like to share with us before we… Richards I think that the Student Museum is, you know—it—it—it—it’s probably a lot bigger than most people really think. It’s—it’s not a matter of postcards and maps and little things that you can touch or handle, but it’s the notion of where we come from and where we’re going, and will people identify those things in 10 years, in 20 years, in 30 years, and say that, uh—that there was something that was very valuable here? It was something that was very important to a lot of people, and I hope we can still see that, and I hope that that’s, uh, a multicultural thing that—that, uh, everybody can look at and say, “This is—this is where we were, and this is where we are, and lot of good things have taken place.” McLaughlin Excellent, and once again, my name is Ian McLaughlin, and I’m interviewing Dr. Storm Richards at his home in Geneva, Florida. Today is Wednesday, the 24th of October, 2012. <div> <div> <a title="">[1]</a> Present-day Seminole State College. </div> <div> <a title="">[2]</a> The Senator. </div> <div> <a title="">[3]</a> Correction: The Walt Disney Company. </div> </div> 17-92 7th Street A3-D band shell Big Tree Park Central Florida City of Sanford Columbus, Christopher Cuban Missile Crisis deputy directory Disney Disney Corporation Disney World Division of Historical Resources environmental consultant Ezekiel’s Travels Fairbanks Fairbanks Ave. Fairbanks Avenue Fisher, Serena Florida Alliance Florida Department of State Garner, Elvira Georgetown grant writer Greenway Hopper Hopper Academy I-4 Interstate 4 Interstate Highway 4 maypole McLaughlin, Ian mechanic National Register of Historic Places navigator bombardier Orlando-Sanford Airport Orlando-Sanford International Airport parade Park Avenue Patuxent River PHC Reconstruction rehabilitation Richards, Storm Leslie Sanford Civic Center Sanford Grammar School Sanford State College SCC School Board of Seminole County Seminole Seminole Community College Seminole County Seminole High Seminole High School Seminole HS senator senior planner Seventh Street SHS SSC State of Florida Storm L. Richards & Associates Storm L. Richards & Associates, Inc. Student Museum Toll Way TU Tulane Tulane University U.S. Route 17-92 UCF Public History Center UF University of Florida Urban Re-Use and Planning Department Vigilante WDW zoo https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka/files/original/41cdd26d528b13716bce4e196199673e.pdf ed9a10b71f3b016a2ce50866e72408fb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title Sanford Collection Description The present-day Sanford area was originally inhabited by the Mayaca/Joroco natives by the time Europeans arrived. The tribe was decimated by war and disease by 1760 and was replaced by the Seminole Indians. In 1821, the United States acquired Florida from Spain and Americans began to settled in the state. Camp Monroe was established in the mid-1830s to defend the area against Seminoles during the Seminole Wars. In 1836, the United States Army built a road (present-day Mellonville Avenue) to a location called "Camp Monroe," during the Second Seminole War. Following an attack on February 8, 1837, the camp was renamed "Fort Mellon," in honor of the battle's only American casualty, Captain Charles Mellon. The town of Mellonville was founded nearby in 1842 by Daniel Stewart. When Florida became a state three years later, Mellonville became the county seat for Orange County, which was originally a portion of Mosquito County. Citrus was the first cash crop in the area and the first fruit packing plant was constructed in 1869. In 1870, a lawyer from Connecticut by the name of Henry Shelton Sanford (1832-1891) purchased 12,548 acres of open land west of Mellonville. His vision was to make this new land a major port city, both railway and by water. Sitting on Lake Monroe, and the head of the St. Johns River, the City of Sanford earned the nickname of “The Gate City of South Florida.” Sanford became not only a transportation hub, but a leading citrus industry in Florida, and eventually globally. The Great Fire of 1887 devastated the city, which also suffered from a statewide epidemic of yellow fever the following year. The citrus industry flourished until the Great Freezes of 1894 and 1895, causing planters to begin growing celery in 1896 as an alternative. Celery replaced citrus as the city's cash crop and Sanford was nicknamed "Celery City." In 1913, Sanford became the county seat of Seminole County, once part of Orange County. Agriculture dominated the region until Walt Disney World opened in October of 1971, effectively shifting the Central Florida economy towards tourism and residential development. Alternative Title Sanford Collection Subject Sanford (Fla.) Contributor <a href="http://www.seminolecountyfl.gov/departments-services/leisure-services/parks-recreation/museum-of-seminole-county-history/" target="_blank">Museum of Seminole County History</a> <a href="https://www.thehistorycenter.org/" target="_blank">Orange County Regional History Center</a> <a href="http://sanfordhistory.tripod.com/" target="_blank">Sanford Historical Society, Inc.</a> <a href="http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.aspx?page=108" target="_blank">Sanford Museum</a> Is Part Of <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/44" target="_blank">Seminole County Collection</a>, RICHES of Central Florida. Language eng Type Collection Coverage Sanford, Florida Curator Marra, Katherine Cepero, Laura Digital Collection <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a> External Reference Sanford Historical Society (Fla.). <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/53015288" target="_blank">Sanford</a>. Charleston, SC: Arcadia, 2003. "<a href="http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.aspx?page=48" target="_blank">Sanford: A Brief History</a>." City of Sanford. http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.aspx?page=48. The Seminole Herald. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/52633016" target="_blank">Sanford: Our First 125 Years</a>. [Sanford, FL]: The Herald, 2002. Mills, Jerry W., and F. Blair Reeves. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/11338196" target="_blank">A Chronology of the Development of the City of Sanford, Florida: With Major Emphasis on Early Growth</a>, 1975. Has Part <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/82" target="_blank">Celery Soup: Florida’s Folk Life Play Collection</a>, Sanford Collection, Seminole County Collection, RICHES of Central Florida. <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/65" target="_blank">Churches of Sanford Collection</a>, Sanford Collection, Seminole County Collection, RICHES of Central Florida. <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/131" target="_blank">Creative Sanford, Inc. Collection</a>, Sanford Collection, Seminole County Collection, RICHES of Central Florida. <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/41" target="_blank">Georgetown Collection</a>, Sanford Collection, Seminole County Collection, RICHES of Central Florida. <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/78" target="_blank">Marie J. Francis Collection</a>, Georgetown Collection, Sanford Collection, Seminole County Collection, RICHES of Central Florida. <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/101" target="_blank">Sanford Avenue Collection</a>, Georgetown Collection, Sanford Collection, Seminole County Collection, RICHES of Central Florida. <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/79" target="_blank">Goldsboro Collection</a>, Sanford Collection, Seminole County Collection, RICHES of Central Florida. <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/116" target="_blank">Henry L. DeForest Collection</a>, Sanford Collection, Seminole County Collection, RICHES of Central Florida. <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/12" target="_blank">Hotel Forrest Lake Collection</a>, Sanford Collection, Seminole County Collection, RICHES of Central Florida. <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/14" target="_blank">Ice Houses of Sanford Collection</a>, Sanford Collection, Seminole County Collection, RICHES of Central Florida. <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/42" target="_blank">Milane Theatre Collection</a>, Sanford Collection, Seminole County Collection, RICHES of Central Florida. <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/13" target="_blank">Naval Air Station Sanford Collection</a>, Sanford Collection, Seminole County Collection, RICHES of Central Florida. <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/15" target="_blank">Sanford Baseball Collection</a>, Sanford Collection, Seminole County Collection, RICHES of Central Florida. <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/61" target="_blank">Sanford Cigar Collection</a>, Sanford Collection, Seminole County Collection, RICHES of Central Florida. <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/10" target="_blank">Sanford Riverfront Collection</a>, Sanford Collection, Seminole County Collection, RICHES of Central Florida. <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/11" target="_blank">Sanford State Farmers' Market Collection</a>, Sanford Collection, Seminole County Collection, RICHES of Central Florida. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title Oral History of Bette Skates Alternative Title Oral History, Skates Subject Sanford (Fla.) Teachers--Florida Education--Florida Churches--Florida Description An oal history of Bette Skates, conducted by Diana Dombrowski on July 9, 2010. As the historian of the Holy Cross Episcopal Church in Sanford, Florida, Skates discusses growing up in Sanford, how Sanford has changed over time, her educational and family history, her career as a teacher, school integration, the history and activities of the Holy Cross Episcopal Church, her role as church historian, how education has changed over time, ad Florida's Comprehensive Assessment Test (FCAT). Table Of Contents 0:00:00 Introduction 0:00:47 Growing up in Sanford 0:07:13 How Sanford has changed over time 0:08:47 Mother's beauty shop 0:11:05 Going to college, getting married, and raising a family 0:13:43 Career in education and school integration 0:20:03 Home and family 0:23:07 Church life 0:24:45 History of General Henry Shelton Sanford and the Holy Cross Episcopal Church 0:36:08 Trends in congregational membership 0:37:59 Church involvement in the Sanford community 0:42:08 Church memorials and artifacts 0:49:33 Role as church historian 0:52:40 How education has changed over time 0:56:59 Florida's Comprehensive Assessment Test (FCAT) 1:01:21 Historical events 1:04:51 Children 1:05:47 Schools that Skates taught at 1:09:01 Closing remarks Abstract Oral history interview of Bette Skates. Interview conducted by Diana Dombrowski at the <a href="http://www.seminolecountyfl.gov/departments-services/leisure-services/parks-recreation/museum-of-seminole-county-history/" target="_blank">Museum of Seminole County History</a>, Sanford, Florida. Type Sound Source Skates, Bette. Interviewed by Diana Dombrowski. July 9, 2010. <a href="http://www.seminolecountyfl.gov/departments-services/leisure-services/parks-recreation/museum-of-seminole-county-history/" target="_blank">Museum of Seminole County History</a>, Sanford, Florida. Requires <a href="http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/" target="_blank">Adobe Flash Player</a> <a href="http://java.com/en/download/index.jsp" target="_blank">Java</a> <a href="https://get.adobe.com/reader/" target="_blank">Adobe Acrobat Reader</a> Is Part Of <a href="http://www.seminolecountyfl.gov/departments-services/leisure-services/parks-recreation/museum-of-seminole-county-history/" target="_blank">Museum of Seminole County History</a>, Sanford, Florida. <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/43" target="_blank">Sanford Collection</a>, Seminole County Collection, RICHES of Central Florida. Coverage St. Gertrude's Grove, Sanford Florida Montezuma Hotel, Sanford, Florida Stetson University, DeLand, Florida Geneva Elementary School, Geneva, Florida Holy Cross Episcopal Church, Sanford, Florida's. Gertrude's Grove, Sanford Florida Belair Grove, Lake Mary, Florida Creator Skates, Bette Dombrowski, Diana Date Created 2010-07-09 Date Modified 2014-10-01 Date Copyrighted 2010-07-09 Format audio/wav application/pdf Extent 702 MB 263 KB Medium 1-hour, 9-minute and 34-second audio recording 27-page typed transcript Language eng Mediator History Teacher Economics Teacher Provenance Originally created Bette Skates and Diana Dombrowski. Rights Holder Copyright to this resource is held by the <a href="http://www.seminolecountyfl.gov/departments-services/leisure-services/parks-recreation/museum-of-seminole-county-history/" target="_blank">Museum of Seminole County History</a> and is provided here by <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a> for educational purposes only. Accrual Method Donation Curator Cepero, Laura Digital Collection <a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a> Source Repository <a href="http://www.seminolecountyfl.gov/departments-services/leisure-services/parks-recreation/museum-of-seminole-county-history/" target="_blank">Museum of Seminole County History</a> External Reference "<a href="http://www.sanfordholycrossepiscopal.com/about-us.html" target="_blank">Holy Cross Episcopal Church est. 1873</a>." Holy Cross Episcopal Church. http://www.sanfordholycrossepiscopal.com/about-us.html. Stinecipher, Grace Marie. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/10878290" target="_blank">A History of the First Baptist Church, Sanford, Florida, 1884-1984</a>. Baltimore: Gateway Press, 1984. Sanford Historical Society (Fla.). <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/53015288" target="_blank">Sanford</a>. Charleston, SC: Arcadia, 2003. Click to View (Movie, Podcast, or Website) <a href="http://youtu.be/CHLpeA7LzOk" target="_blank">Oral History of Bette Skates</a> Transcript Dombrowski This is an interview with Bette Skates, the church historian for Holy Cross Episcopal Church in Sanford. This interview is being conducted on July 8, 2010,<a title="">[1]</a> at the Museum of Seminole County History. Interviewer is Diana Dombrowski, representing the museum for the Historical Society of Central Florida. Skates Good. Dombrowski I just have some basic questions first. Your name is Bette Skates, but where and when were you born? Skates I was born in Philadelphia[, Pennsylvania] in 1933. Dombrowski Oh, wow. What brought your family to Florida? Skates My father’s ill health, which is what brings most people to Florida back in the day. Dombrowski Yeah. That’s true. When did you move here? Did you grow up in Central Florida? Skates I moved to Sanford in 1944. Dombrowski Oh, okay. What was it like? Could you describe it? Was it very big? Was it busy? Skates Sanford was a railroad town. And my father worked for the railroad—is the reason, besides the fact that his health was not good, and he needed to get out of the North. And he was a Georgia boy to begin with. So he wanted to come south. And so when he had this opportunity to work for the Atlantic Coast Line Railroad, at the freight station, he was very eager to accept the job. We came in on a train that they call the—well, there’s two of them. One was the Orange Blossom Special, and the other was the Champion. And this was the passenger train from the North—from Philadelphia and New York. All points north. When we came into the station, my mother had never—well, yes. Mother had been south before, but we hadn’t, as children—very young children. I was ten—nine or ten. And when we pulled into the station and got off the train, the humidity hit us like it was going to knock us out. And I said, “Oh. Let’s get back on the train.”[laughs]. Dombrowski [laughs]. Skates And that was before air—trains were air-conditioned too, but—but it was still cooler on the train. Dombrowski Wow. Skates So my dad said, you know, “This is nothing. This is fine. This feels wonderful. Get used to it.” Dombrowski [laughs]. Skates [laughs]And my mother—she’s just kind of being quiet and fanning herself. We had this—it—it was the old station that was on—on Ninth Street, and they’ve since torn it down. Dombrowski Oh. Skates On Ninth and, uh—well, it was just Ninth Street. I guess there was side street, but I don’t recall. right off of French Avenue. Because then the tracks still all—we still had tracks running all over downtown. Dombrowski Hmm. Skates They’re—they’re not there now, because back in the day, when trains first came in—all of the wharves and the produce—everything came in to downtown to the river. So, um, we had—let me get back to my story. So we got off the train and my sister and I—and she was a year younger than I am—and we both started—“Something smells funny. What is it?” My dad said, “Oh, that’s sulfur water! Oh, come over here, girls!” He says. “Come over here!” And here’s a water fountain, right up against the train station. I think it was a brick train station. Right there, it’s all green inside, where the water is coming out. And we’re looking at this saying, “Oh, this smells so bad!” You know. We’re holding our noses, and he’s getting very annoyed with us. “Take a taste of that water. That’s healthy water. That’s better than drinking that Schuylkill River water you’ve been drinking in Philadelphia.” Of course, my mother is being as she always is—long-suffering. And she said, “Well, they can taste it if they want to.” We tasted it and we almost gagged! Sulfur water—the first time you ever taste it, is horrible. You do get used to it. And you do realize that it is healthy. Dombrowski Okay. Skates But, it’s all the water fountains in the city. And there were water fountains in the parks, and there was one in front of the [First] Baptist Church [of Sanford], and different places. They were all over town. And they were all sulfur water. Dombrowski Wow. Skates So you did get used to it. Dombrowski Oh my goodness. So was the smell everywhere too? Skates Everywhere. Sulfur smells like rotten eggs. Dombrowski It does. Yeah. I remember we went to the [Ponce de Leon’s] Fountain of Youth [Archaeological Park] and they were giving it out, you know. Skate Yes, yes. But it’s supposed to be good for you. So, we got off the train there. And we—I think we took a cab, because we didn’t have a car at that time. And we went to an apartment my father had rented. And I guess I need to say this too, because these are the things that people that haven’t lived here don’t understand or can’t get used to. When we got to the apartment—we had an upstairs apartment. A lovely old two-story house in Sanford just two blocks from where I live now, by the way. And the whole upstairs—this was during the war—and every house in Sanford had been made into apartments and efficiencies, because the Navy base<a title="">[2]</a> was here, and housing was a premium. As we started to go up the stairs, and on the porch was a burlap sack that had something in it. My dad said to me, “Bette, grab that bag and bring it upstairs.” We had our suitcase and everything. I went to pick up the bag, and roaches came out of the bag. They were flying roaches and they were flying all over. I don’t know how many. It might have been two, but it seemed like a hundred. Of course, I dropped it and screamed and had a hissy fit, a good Southern expression. Someone had left a bag of oranges there for us. And, so roaches, of course—so that was my introduction to Sanford. The apartment was lovely and it was cool with oak trees. Of course, I found out that oak trees breed roaches too, so we had roaches flying in the windows and things like that. Yeah, like the water, and the humidity—you try to get used to it. I don’t think I ever got used to the roaches. But that was my introduction to Sanford. Dombrowski How long did you live in the apartment? Skates We lived there for four years, and then my mom bought a house. And my father was ill. I mean, he was very ill, and he knew he was dying. My mother opened a beauty shop downtown, just in 1956, because she knew that she was going to have to support the family. He died in ’56. So she had her beauty shop for 25-30 years in Downtown Sanford. Dombrowski That’s really nice. Skates She’s the one that could tell the stories [laughs]. Dombrowski Okay [laughs].How has Sanford changed when you were growing up there? It was a big railroad town, and your mother, it seems, was there for a very long time. Did you see it get busier? Or develop more? Skates Yes, development. The stores that I remember, as growing up, are—I was trying to think if there are any that are still downtown. But, coming from a big city, it was very nice that we could walk everywhere. Ride bicycles. We went to school at the grammar school and then at Seminole High School, which was just up not too far from my house. I mean, everything was convenient. It was very nice. It was a good, homey feeling, and everybody was friendly. It was a very nice place to grow up, I think. And the schools—my father did not think much of the schools, but then again, in the South, schools hadn’t really caught up by that time. It took quite a few years for them to catch up to what we had been used to. But it, you know, was a nice place to grow up. Very nice. Dombrowski That’s—that’s nice [laughs]. Skates [laughs] Yeah. Dombrowski What was it like for your mother to set up the beauty shop? Was it very difficult? Or… Skates It was very difficult. My grandparents—her mother and father—had lived in Philadelphia. And they had, um—they sold their property up there and came down, just after my dad died, to live with my mother. I know—to help her. We didn’t realize it, at the time, but, um—and they helped her with finances for the beauty shop Dombrowski Okay. Skates So that was—it was very nice. And they lived with us actually, until they both died. They lived with my mother. Um, So that was, um—that was the way she could do what she did. The beauty shop was, um—what—what she would charge for what—for the work she did—I wish I had a price list. But I remember one time, she said something about a dollar and quarter for a manicure. We all said, “Is that all?” She said, “If I had charged a dollar and a half, they wouldn’t come back.” Dombrowski Oh, wow. Skates So, I mean, the prices were—were—were really… Dombrowski Different. Skates Different. Dombrowski [laughs]. Skates [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. But it was her—her hopes[?]—her beauty shop was in the Montezuma Hotel, which that building has burned down since… Dombrowski Oh. Skates Then. It was a big hotel that was built here in the 1880s. Dombrowski Hmm. Skates It was about four blocks from the river, and People would get off the steam ships and walk up the little hill and—to the hotel. It was called the “Bye Lo Hotel,” at the time—I mean, at that time. It was later changed to the Montezuma. But it was—when Mother had the beauty shop there, it was a little spooky Dombrowski Really? Skates It was old, you know? Dombrowski Yeah. Skates And—and there’s a lot of people who still lived there. But, uh, it burned down a few years ago. [inaudible]… Dombrowski Hmm. Skates About 12 years ago, I guess. So, uh, that was—that was a loss, but it was the first hotel in Sanford that had a swimming pool. Maybe the only… Dombrowski Oh, wow. Skates One. It was in the basement… Dombrowski Oh, okay. Skates Of the hotel. Dombrowski That would be cool. Skates Yeah. Dombrowski Yeah. Skates So that was neat. Later, they, uh, put a furnace in the swimming pool and didn’t use that anymore. I never saw the swimming pool with water in it. Dombrowski [laughs]. Skates I did see it with a furnace in it. Dombrowski Oh [laughs]. Skates But, uh, um… Dombrowski Um, Where did you go to school? Did you go to college? Skates Yes. Dombrowski Okay. Skates I did. I went to Stetson University, um… Dombrowski Oh. Skates I started at Stetson in 19well, let’s see. I was going to OJC—Orlando—it was Orlando Junior College. I went there for a while, and then I went to Stetson. It took me—I—I figured this out one time, but I don’t remember. Let’s see. 70—It took me about—I hate to say too much, because I—I—it took me a long time to graduate. I got married when I was 18. Dombrowski Oh. Skates I went to college, and I spent three months at Middle Georgia College, up in, uh, Cochran, Georgia. My cousins, uh—my dad’s sister wanted their daughter to go, and she wouldn’t go. She was homesick. And they said, “Well, if Bette would come and go with her, she would go.” So I went there, and I spent three months. Had a wonderful time. Made the Dean’s List. Was just doing fine, except I had a boyfriend, and I was in love Dombrowski Aww [laughs]. Skates [laughs]. And my moth—the woman’s—the—the—the boy’s mother kept saying, “Well, I was married when I was 18,” So I decided that it was good enough for her, it was good enough for me. So I married him. So… Dombrowski Oh. Skates I went to college in between having my children. Dombrowski Oh. Skates Every time I could get, uh—I could find some money, or get a loan, or—there—there were student loans—there were [Federal] Pell Grants we could get. They—Loans were much easier to get in those days, so I could get student loan. So I would go to school for a while and then I would get pregnant again. And then I’d… Dombrowski [laughs]. Skates Go to school for a while and then I would get pregnant again. Dombrowski [laughs]. Skates This went on until 1964—well, it—let’s see when. I don’t remember how many years. But I finally started teaching when I was—when it was, um—it was 1965, I think. Dombrowski Oh, okay. Skates So it took me a long time to get certified to teach, but I did. And then I taught for 30 years in Seminole County. Dombrowski Wow. Skates Yeah. Which has been exciting. Dombrowski How many children did you have? Skates I have four children. Dombrowski Oh, okay. Skates Yeah. So I was kind of spacing this. Finally—I might want to censor this—finally about 1968, my husband got tired of it. Anybody, I guess, could understand that. He said—he didn’t sign on for that. So that was alright. But we managed, very well, and thank goodness I had my education so I could support my family. So it was good. Dombrowski So you taught in the school system for 30 years. What was it like in the 60’s? What was integration like? Skates My first 10 years, I taught out in Geneva [Elementary School]. Dombrowski Oh, I like Geneva. Skates Oh, I love Geneva. I still hear from those kids. They’re great. Of course, they’re not kids. They’re grown. It was wonderful. It was probably the best teaching assignment you could have for a beginning teacher. Because by that time, I was 35 when I started teaching. I was trying to think of how to put this. The schools had not been integrated much at that time. I don’t remember the year that I had the first black student, but I had a sweet boy. Now I was teaching fifth grade. He had come up through the grades. There was only five grades—five classrooms—at Geneva. And the first year that I taught there, I taught in the auditorium, because there was no place. So what they did was take out the first couple rows of seats and let us set the classroom up right in front of the stage. Which was good until I got a couple of kids that were a little bit older than they should have been in fifth grade—a boy and a girl. And next thing I knew, they were behind the stage, and I had to go get them. They were good kids, and they really didn’t do anything bad, I don’t think. But I would have been in big trouble. But anyway, the first black child I had—I was going to say I’ll never forget his name, and I did. What a sweetheart he was [laughs]. Dombrowski [laughs]. Skates But he was just testing. He was testing us, going to see if the system was going to work. He was a nice kid. Good parents. If I called his parents before he left school, by the time he got off the bus at home, they were back at the school to see what he had done or hadn’t done. Because he didn’t like to do homework and he didn’t like to do class work. Guess he had just been allowed to get away with more than he should have. But he wasn’t used to me. Anyway, he was a nice kid. Yeah, it was interesting, and the children we had at Geneva—the black and the white children—were I think just the salt of the earth. I mean they were really good people. Parents were country folks, most of them at that time. Now, later on, when UCF [University of Central Florida] opened, we started getting a different group of children. Their parents were more educated. They were professors and people that worked at the college. And so by the time I left Geneva, it had changed a good bit. My two younger boys, I brought with me to Geneva, so I taught two of my own children in fifth grade. Which was—everybody says, “How is it working?” I said, “It works fine.” No problem. They were good kids to begin with. It worked out. It was fine. That was good too, because, that was, at the time, in Sanford. My two older children—there were a lot of problems at schools in Sanford, with the integration. They started busing—I don’t remember the year. When I was going to Geneva, my daughter was being bused to what used to be an all-black high school—Crooms High School—which they did just to integrate. And that was wrong. Because the kids—the black kids were not happy, the white kids were not happy. And the black teachers and the white teachers were all upset about it, but they were busing the kids across town. So I’m driving to Geneva ten miles away and my daughter is in a bus driving across the city, and I don’t know where she is and what’s happening. It was worrisome. But it all worked out. It just took time and a lot of patience on both sides. It should never have been separate to begin with, but we have to fix our mistakes. Dombrowski So tensions were high? Skates Very high. Dombrowski Was it ever violent? Skates Yeah. There was violence. A lot of it was threatened. You know, just like, if you go down this street, we’re going to throw rocks at the bus and things like that. That was very worrisome. And my oldest son, when he was in ninth—and well, high school. It was ninth grade at Crooms. But when he was in ninth grade and tenth grade—all through school, he was a big boy, and had red hair. And it was a novelty. He got a lot of—he did his best to stay out of trouble, but trouble came to him. And of course, he tells me now he got blamed for a lot of things he didn’t do, but I’m not going to go there. You know how kids are. Anyway, he hung in there. His high school experiences were very bad. Very bad. Yeah. It was real sad. But my daughter didn’t seem to have the problems. She was also redheaded, but she seemed to go with the flow easier. He was a target. You know, a big guy. But he’s not a fighter. He didn’t want to fight, but anyway. We got through it [laughs]. Dombrowski Good [laughs].Did you all live in Sanford at the time? Did you drive to Geneva and back? Skates I drove to Geneva. Yeah. I bought the house that I’m still living in, in 1958. Dombrowski Wow. Skates Yeah. So I raised my family there. And just last couple years ago, we celebrated our 50th—I said, I’ll never have a golden wedding anniversary—so we celebrated our golden anniversary living in the house. So the kids got together and each one did something. But anyway, they have a photograph of the house framed in a beautiful frame that my grandson found when he was working for the College Hunks Hauling Junk. He found a frame and on the bottom of it my daughter wrote in gold, “Thanks for the memories.” So it’s very nice. I have it hanging over the piano. It’s very nice. Dombrowski That’s wonderful. So it’s downtown? Skates Yes. It’s downtown. If you go—First Street is the street where all the commerce is, where the business is. I live between Eleventh [Street] and Twelfth [Street] on Park Avenue. And Park Avenue’s the main street that goes down to the lakefront, and used to be [U.S. Route] 17-92 back in the day. That is where traffic went through the town. It’s in the historic district. The house was built in 1924. It’s probably more than anybody wants to know, but it’s called a “Craftsman Airplane Bungalow.” Because the upstairs is one room, and a bathroom, and it has 12 windows all the way around. So it looks like you’re looking out airplane windows. You’re not. They’re regular windows, but anyway, that’s what it’s called. Dombrowski That sounds really cool. I love Craftsman style. Skates Yes. It’s really nice. I have pillars on that house that are real unique. They’re made out of coquina. Dombrowski Wow. Skates Yeah. My fireplace—the chimney is made out of coquina. And it’s much higher than the first floor. It goes up past the second floor, because the second floor is sitting kind of in the middle of the house. It’s really neat. You’ll have to come see me. Dombrowski This sounds like a real Florida house. Skates It is a real Florida house. Yeah. For a good many years we didn’t have air conditioning, so we had what they called an “attic fan” that’s up in the second floor attic. When you turn it on and you open a window in each room, one window—it sucks the cool night air in and keeps the house cool. Only it slams doors, you have to be real careful, because doors get sucked. You get slamming doors all day. But it was neat. I don’t remember being miserable. Dombrowski Well, good. Skates I don’t remember being exactly hot. So it must have worked. Dombrowski Were you a member of the church since you moved here? Skates No. We were Lutheran when we first moved here. My sister and I had both been confirmed in the Lutheran Church in Philadelphia. And so I convinced my husband that he should join the Lutheran church, and so we went as a family until he left. And well, the kids were teenagers, and you know how hard it is to get teenagers to go to church. So I just decided that I had always loved the [Holy Cross] Episcopal Church, and I loved the architecture, and the history, and Jesus. I’m sorry, Jesus. I get carried away. But so we—my daughter and I, and my youngest son—all joined the Episcopal church. My two older sons were not interested. But they were grown by that time, and I didn’t feel like I could force them to do that. They had to want to do that. And I’m still a member. But how I got the job as historian, I made the mistake of correcting someone. You know how when someone says, “Oh, it was 1873—2, or something?” I said, “No. it was ’73.” “We need a historian. You’re—you’re it. You’re going to do it.” [laughs]. Dombrowski [laughs]. Skates I said, Oh, my gosh. I should keep my mouth shut. [laughs]. Dombrowski [laughs]. Skates But I love it. I’ve been doing this since, um, [20]04. Dombrowski Wow. Okay. Skates Yeah. So the church, they said, had no written history. I’ve—I’ve found all kinds of stuff, so it’s—I’ve collected it. I’ve got it together. I write a news, uh, article each month for our church newsletter that goes out every month, telling, you know, whatever it is I found out recently about the church. And so it’s—it’s a good thing. I enjoy it. Dombrowski Could you speak a little about the church? When it was founded, you know? Skates Yes,. This was General [Henry Shelton] Sanford’s church. When General Sanford—Henry Sheldon Sanford—came to this area in 1870—probably 1870. It was after the Civil War, and he was trying, as a lot of—I don’t want to call them “carpetbaggers,” but some people do. A lot of people—wealthy northerners—came down and tried to make their fortune, or another fortune. He had been ambassador to Belgium. They called him a liaison. Liaison? That doesn’t sound right. Well, anyway, yeah. I guess he was. But he also was a spy for the Union Army during the war—the Civil War. Dombrowski Oh, my goodness. Skates And he was traveling around going to different foreign capitals, trying to get some of those countries to send ammunition and guns to the North. So there’s a whole big story that I haven’t even started on of his spying for the North. But when he finished up with that job—I guess he retired from that job, because he was probably in his 50s then, I think. He married a beautiful lady. She was living in Belgium, but she was from the United States. The Sanford Museum has a huge, gorgeous painting of the home they lived in, in Belgium. It looks like a small—like maybe the Queen might have had that summer home, or something. It was beautiful. We have friends in Sanford that have visited that area and that house, and they’re using that house as a retreat for nuns now. Anyway, General Henry Sanford—he became a general, because he gave some cannons to the state of Minnesota, because he wanted a title. So the Governor of Minnesota [Alexander Ramsey] made him a general. So, anyway, let’s see. Let me get back to the church. So he bought a lot of land down on the lakefront. He was right for his time, that Sanford—and of course it wasn’t called Sanford in those days) —that this area, Mellonville, was going to be the “Gateway to South Florida.” Because all supplies—food, you know, everything that people need to start up a homestead—they would have to buy in Sanford. So he had a lumber mill. Somebody else had a grocery store. I mean they had all things people, you know, the pioneers, would need. He bought orange trees from all over, and he planted orange trees. One of his groves—his first grove [St. Gertrude’s Grove] —was downtown right on the lakefront where there’s apartment buildings and city hall and things there now. Citrus didn’t do too well there. The soil apparently wasn’t good enough, and so they moved out to what he called Belair [Grove], and that’s out towards Lake Mary, around the lakes. So, his Belair Groves[sic] were very profitable. About 1873, he decided that there needed to be a church. He and his wife, Gertrude [Dupuy Sanford]—now, Gertrude didn’t come here much, because this was not her cup of tea. And when you see pictures of her as a young girl, she’s absolutely beautiful. Beautiful clothes, and very high class. And they had about five children and they were all born in Europe. She didn’t come here often. But he planted Belair in orange and lemon trees. He had a grove manager whose name was Reverend Lyman Phelps. General Sanford was from Connecticut. And he convinced this Episcopal priest to come down to start a church. Well, he did, but he also made Lyman Phelps his agent and his farm grove manager, because the man had a background in botany too. The man was very, uh,—he was very versatile. When, um—when General Sanford—I call him “General Sanford”. A lot of people say he—he doesn’t deserve that title, but it just comes easy to me, for some reason. It—it denotes a lot of the things that he did, other than just being Henry Sanford. Um, so they started to build this church, and Mrs. Sanford wrote to all of her wealthy friends, and in her letters, she said, “Please, um, help us build our dear little church.” And that was her—the way she called it—their “dear little church” in San—in—in this city. Someone, finally, along the line—a friend of his daughter—[inaudible] said—said, “Well, we should call this city ‘Sanford,’ after you, Mr. Sanford.” And Mr. Sanford said, “Ha. What a good idea.” Dombrowski [laughs]. Skates [laughs]. And I don’t remember the years that that was—that was started. But, so anyway, by 1873, they had completed the church. Lyman Phelps and Reverend Holeman—H-O-L-E-M-A-N—um, were priests there. And they had, um, services that—these priests—I—when I read their—in the diocesan records, there’s—they had to keep records of what trips they went on and where they went. They rode horses, walked—horse and buggy—through Florida sand, which anybody that walks through it knows that—there was[sic] highways. The only way you went were by animal, you know, roads, where animals, or maybe the Indians, had made them. Um, they went to, um—but they went all over Central Florida. They went to Eustis, to Longwood, to Orlando. They started the St. Luke’s Church in Orlando, which is now the Cathedral [Church of St. Luke]. They went all over Central Florida, uh, especially Lyman Phelps. Um, But he—they were, um—it just amazes me, when I read their exploits, and the alligators… Dombrowski [laughs]. Skates You know, the mosquitoes, the—oh, my soul. But, um, anyway, so that’s how the—the Episcopal church got its start. That church—that was built in 1873. 1880, along comes—and they called it a “tornado,” and I haven’t been able to say that it wasn’t, but I think it was more like a hurricane, and maybe a tornado—a tornado was [inaudible]. It blew down Mrs. Sanford’s dear little church. Dombrowski Oh. Skates And we have pictures of it. And the—the steeple is laying on the ground, and the church is still standing, but it’s—it’s—it’s damaged. So they got busy. Mrs. Sanford raised some more money, and by, um, 1880, they had built another—well, yeah. It was 1873. By 1880, the church blew down. By 1881, they had a new church built. That church survived until 1923, and it burned down. Dombrowski Oh. Skates So they—1924 and ’25, they rebuilt it. So the church standing on that property is still on the same property that Sanford gave us. That church now was built, uh, in 19—1924, it was completed. It’s, uh, what they call “Spanish Mediterranean” [Architecture]. It’s… Dombrowski Oh. Skates Very Spanish-looking. It’s a very pretty church. Dombrowski Where is it? Skates It’s on the corner of Fourth—Park Avenue and Fourth Street. Dombrowski Okay. Skates And the parish hall was built by 1926. So one of the things I always thought was interesting, when they first built—or probably the second church—in the side where they had some room, they put orange trees so that in case times were bad, they would have some money. They would have a way of getting money still. Dombrowski Aw. Skates That was kind of interesting. Dombrowski Um,I do have a question. I don’t know much about the church in Sanford. Is it the main church for the city? Are most of the people in Sanford Episcopalian? Skates No, no. They’re not. Probably back in the day, it was the only church, but then of course, the South is mostly Methodist and Baptist. And right now the street—Park Avenue should have been called “Church Street.” Because there’s the Episcopal—well, first, a block closer to the lake was the Congregational church. But since they’ve moved that—they tore it down and moved down Park Avenue. The next church was Holy Cross. Then, next door to us is the [First United] Methodist Church [of Sanford]. Right next door to that is the [First] Baptist Church [of Sanford]. So on Sunday mornings, we used to have a real traffic jam down there. Not so much anymore. No, Holy Cross—I think it’s like all the churches. They’re struggling. But we’re still here. We have two services, an 8 o’clock service and a 10 o’clock service. If we had everybody at 10 o’clock, we would have a good crowd. But when you separate it into two—the people who go at 8 o’clock won’t come at 10. The people who come at 10 o’clock won’t go at 8 o’clock. So our priest does two services. And yeah, it’s a busy little church. We have a fairly good-sized Sunday school, considering Sunday schools are hard for churches these days too. So, probably at one time it was the center of the area, church-wise, but not anymore. Dombrowski In your time as a historian there, have you—reading through the documents and that sort of thing, have you noticed any trends in how many members they had? Like when UCF came, did more people come to the church? Skates It was the biggest—the largest crowds that we have ever had was through the war years when we had a Navy base in Sanford. And that started up as a training base for carrier—for planes to land on carriers. I’m not as familiar with the history of the Navy base, but it closed at the end of World War II, and it was a big drop in the congregation. But then when [the] Korea[n War] came back, they started the base up again. And a lot of those people too have been Navy people—very sophisticated—have been all over the world. Lived in many different places. So those are the people we seem to pull in more than the people that grew up here. Most Southern people are Baptist. My dad’s family—they were all Baptist. But it’s different. Different churches suit different people. I mean, you want whatever it is that makes you feel the presence, or that you feel that you need, that’s where you should be. So I’m very ecumenical. I can, um, belong to any church you want to [laughs]. But Holy Cross is lovely. And the services are beautiful [laughs]. Dombrowski Uh, how involved has the church been in the community? Do they hold a lot of, have they held a lot of events? Skates Sanford—Holy Cross—was the “Guiding Light for Grace and Grits,” which is to feed the homeless. It’s a feeding program that we had at Holy Cross. And I can’t remember these years, it’s been going on for a long time. And we had it at Holy Cross. Every Wednesday night, Holy Cross would feed, oh, a hundred people. But it would depend on the season and what. Homeless people from all over. And not just men, but families. People would come to eat. A few years ago, we wanted to remodel the parish hall, which is where the kitchen is. And we opted to find another place to hold the Wednesday night feedings—dinners, I should say—and that was—that was hard, because the people at the church—and we have some people who are so dedicated to this—they finally found that the City [of Sanford] would let them use the [Sanford] Civic Center. It costs, I think, $200 a month or something like that. We have to pay the City for that. So now they’re feeding them down there. And also, during the transition when the parish hall was being refurbished, and the kitchen was—when we had a new priest—he really has done a lot. I mean, he has Wednesday night services, and so they had a meal there on Wednesday nights, and classes and everything. So that kind of made them want to keep the “Grace and Grits” out there. And Holy Cross wasn’t the only one that does this. I must explain this. Every church—not every church, but many churches in Sanford—there’s a Methodist church, St. Peter’s Episcopal Church in Lake Mary, the [All Souls] Catholic Church [of Sanford]. All of them. Dombrowski Just a minute here. Just to make sure. Skates All of them have people that come and help so we’re not doing it by ourselves. Did it run out of battery? Dombrowski No. It’s working. No. It’s working, I just wanted to make sure that the whole thing had recorded and everything. I’m sorry. Skates But anyway, it’s a whole city thing. There’s a whole lot of people involved in this. So, yeah. We do that. We also have our new priest—well at least not that new anymore. He’s been here 2 or 3 years, and he’s very much involved in helping the homeless. They call it “SACON[sp].” I couldn’t tell you what it stands for, but they go to different places in the neighborhoods and help homeless people get ID cards. Because if they don’t have an ID card, they can’t—well, there’s a lot of things they can’t do. They can’t even get shelter sometimes, if they’re going to shelters. So this has been a good thing. And helping—it’s helping the city to know what the population is of the homeless, and where they’re staying and what they’re doing. So that’s a good thing. He was just very much involved in that. We have some kind of a health thing one day a week at Holy Cross in the mornings, where people can come. I’m not really sure what, I guess I shouldn’t say anything about it, because I’m not sure what that is. I don’t what the group is that’s doing it. But yeah, Holy Cross is involved. Dombrowski Uh, is there anything about the church that you’d like to discuss that we haven’t covered? Skates We have a lot of memorials in Holy Cross that I’ve been trying to—and this is a hard job. We actually have two memorial books that from the beginning people have—the gifts of love that they’ve given in memory of someone that they lost. But when I go to the memorial books, there are items in there that we no longer have. We’ve had a couple of break-ins over the years, so they’ve lost some things, and then there’s items that we have that aren’t listed. So we’ve endeavored to work on this. I was trying to take pictures and it’s just one other job that I haven’t finished. It takes a lot of time to do that. And I really—I could get help—old-timers, because I’m not an old-timer there. They’ll say, “Oh no, I remember that was given in memory of so-and-so.” Right now, I’m working on—when the church was rebuilt in 1923-1924, the altar and the pulpit at the front was very plain. I can only tell from pictures, but unattractive. And in 1940, sometime, a member of the choir—and I’m still working on this. This is one of those strings you have to keep following and try to see if you can come to the end—was killed in an automobile accident. And he is—what’s the word? They have said that he had given in 1945 money to buy a new altar. A new altar, and reredos behind the altar, and an altar, and chairs. We have a lot of furniture, because it’s a very formal church. I don’t think you call it “High Episcopal.” I think some people might, but we have a good candelabra, good communion-ware. A lot of stuff. And anyway, this man—apparently there was a big brouhaha that the vestry wanted to put a new roof on the church, which is a tile roof—which always needs work—or to buy the altar furniture. And just recently I talked to a lady, who’s in a—a Heritage [at Lake Forest] nursing home out here, who was telling me about this. I didn’t know this story. And she said, “Oh, my goodness.” She said, “Everybody was fighting, and everybody was mad. They wanted the roof.” “No, no. We want the altar.” Well anyway, the altar people won out, because the priest wanted the altar… Dombrowski [laughs]. Skates Redone [laughs]. So, uh—so I’m still working on that. And, as, uh, oral tradition says, that that money was used for the new altar-ware—altar and furniture, I should say—um, by this man, who gave it, But, um—in honor—in [inaudible] —yeah. In of our members who fought in World War II. Dombrowski Okay. Skates So I asked one of our older members if he remembers that. He says, “Oh yeah, there’s a plaque up there in the front of the church someplace that tells all the members that died. I’m sure it says something about ‘in memory of’ that.” Well, the plaque wasn’t there, so several ladies started on a search of the rooms, and they found the plaque. Only, it wasn’t a plaque. It’s a big framed picture with 70 names beautifully written by someone on there, with little gold stars next to five men who were killed during the war. But I still don’t know if it’s a memorial to them for the furniture. So I’m working on that, because I have the big memorial plaque reframed and I guess we’ll rededicate it one of these days when we find out what’s the story on it. But there’s things like that that come up when someone will say, “Well, who gave that baptismal font? What was that all about?” Or, we have two things in the church—this is interesting—we have two things in the church that we know for certain were there in the first church. That General Sanford gave: a crucifixion picture that he had bought in Belgium and donated it to the church. That picture—and we were trying to get an idea of the value of it—and the man that we had restore it said, “It’s not worth a thing. All it’s worth is what it’s worth to the congregation. But as far as famous artist, no.” It’s the crucifixion. Even after it as restored, still doesn’t look very good. Because it went through the hurricane the first time. Through the fire the second time. Someone rescued it. So it has—the restorer said it has water damage. So that was something that we know General Sanford physically probably touched, and that it was there. The other thing is a small lectern, where they put the Bibles on, or the prayer book. And that’s in the chapel that was given by Reverend Lyman Phelps. We think he built it. He made it in memory of his wife. So that’s pretty interesting to have two things back a hundred and how many years—138 years or whatever it is. Dombrowski Oh. That’s very special. Skates Yeah. It is special. So it’s the history. I mean, I could go to any church. I love—just love churches. But I love the history of this church. It’s—and I’m sure that if I were in Philadelphia I’d go to Christ Church I went to Williamsburg [,Virginia]<a title="">[3]</a>—my mother and I—we went to the—oh, what was the name of that Episcopal church<a title="">[4]</a> there? It’s so beautiful in Williamsburg.<a title="">[5]</a> Where Patrick Henry gave his speech. Dombrowski In Virginia? Skates In Virginia. That was—so it’s the ambiance. It’s what you feel. It’s very interesting. And I do get excited about it [laughs]. Dombrowski I’m just going to check the battery one more time. Oh, it looks fine. Whoa. I didn’t notice the bars. They change as I talk and get closer. But the battery’s fine. Okay, great. So, uh, you’re a historian there. It sounds like you do a bunch of different things. Skates I’m kind of a detective. There’s not a day goes—well, a day—there probably is. But not a week goes by that someone says, “Bette”—well somebody asked me the other day, “Isn’t our,”—we have a huge bell on the bell tower—“Isn’t that bell called ‘Raphael?’” I said, “No, I don’t think—that’s not the name of the bell.” And he said, “Oh, I’m pretty sure it is.” Well, now I have to figure it out. Is it or isn’t it? Or, people will say, “Well, where did the bell come from?” Oh, and then we have this magnificent organ of Ferrante[sp] Brothers organ from—I can’t remember where it’s from. I want to say Canada, but I may be wrong. It was installed in 1947, and this is just a magnificent piece of furniture. Ferrante[sp] Brothers. I believe there’s another name that goes with that. I guess I can’t remember. But anyway, it doesn’t matter. This is not a test. That was put in in 1947, and I’ve forgotten how many pipes there are for it, but—oh, more than 100 pipes. There’s pipes and pipes. Pipes that you can see over the choir loft, but there’s also a whole closet full of pipes. Our organist—she knows how to play it. It’s just beautiful. So that was—I don’t know where the money for that came from. As far as that being a memorial, or something, I don’t know. I don’t think so. So many things are, but that’s not. But someone will say, “Well, what year was the organ installed?” Or, “Where did it come from?” So I—yeah. I do. I have to have a little notebook in my pocketbook and I keep writing it down and then I have to go back and research it. And I have a lot of friends too that have been long, long-time members there, so I usually go to them and say, “Do you know anything about this?” And some of them will say, “No, I don’t know.” Or, “We’ll look it up.” But we have—and I’m trying to get all the histories together and put them in one place so it’s pretty organized. It’s fairly organized, but not as much as I would like to have it done. But I’ve saved all the newsletters[sic] columns that I’ve written over the years. I have them each in a different notebook with acid-free paper so after I type them I print them off and put them in the folders and so I’ve got all that. So that’s a pretty good history right there. It’s good. Did I answer the question? [laughs]. Dombrowski Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Skates Also, I must give credit to Alicia Clarke at the Sanford Museum. We have much help from her. And then some! Sorry. Dombrowski [laughs] No. I don’t mind at all. I know we’ve been talking for a long time now, but if you wouldn’t mind, I’d like to find out more about what your time as an educator was like Seminole County. Skates Oh, I think I had the best 30 years that you could have had really, because it was—right now, I have friends, my neighbors. I have a lot of friends still teaching, and it’s very different now. It’s very different. We had—the wonderful thing we had that teachers today don’t have, and that’s freedom. You can’t say—if Johnny brings in a whole bag of shells that he had his mother just collected at the beach, we can’t dump those shells out and sit down and go through them and maybe catalog them or talk about them or what can we do with it. There’s no way of being spontaneous, because teachers today—if that child brought that in, I would have to say, “I’m sorry, you’re going to have to put that away. We don’t have time to look at that.” And that bothers me a lot. Because I really feel like the teachable moment is when the kid is interested. And if nobody is interested, then there’s no teachable moment. It’s—when I was teaching at Idyllwilde [Elementary School] one year, the kids found a dead rabbit on the playground. I have a friend who had just moved here from Chicago[, Illinois], and she was working with me at the time. She was getting ready to take over half of my class, because I had 45 kids in my class. And they had hired her to take part of my kids. But she tells me about this every time she thinks about it. She said, “So, the kids wanted to know what to do with the rabbit.” And I said, “Well, we’re going to have to bury it. Let’s bury it.” So we got a shovel from the janitor and the boys dug a hole right outside the classroom door. And buried the rabbit. Well, they got to talking about what was going to happen to the rabbit in the ground. Well, of course the kids—and these were fourth and fifth graders—they would say, “Well, the bugs and the worms are going to eat him,” and so forth. So, just before school was out, the boy that dug the hole said, “Ms. Skates, can we dig that rabbit up? See what’s left? See if we can find his bones?” And I said, “Well, that’s a good idea. Let’s do it.” So we did. We couldn’t find it! This kid dug up a whole are as big as this table. Couldn’t find a thing left of the rabbit. Dombrowski Oh, my goodness. Skates But that sounds—and it would probably almost be silly to some educator—but those are things that—what did they learn? Well, we could put a whole bunch of things on the board. We learned this. We learned, you know—what is this? So, or you know—well like the space shuttle. We had classes when the Space Shuttle [Challenger] blew up. We all went outside on the playground to watch the space shuttle go up. And this was—what was this? [19]89? Dombrowski Oh, I have it here. No, I don’t. Skates But anyway, we were all out on the playground, watching, and we saw it went up, and we saw all these stars and everything. The kids were all saying, “Look at that. They’re putting out stars,” all kinds of things that kids would think of. And my fellow teacher was standing next to me, she said, “I think we ought to take the kids in.” I said, “Okay.” So we take the kids in. Well, she happened to have a little TV set in her closet. And we brought that out to see what had happened. And we could do that. You couldn’t do that today. Dombrowski That’s true. Skates She brought it out and we set that out between our two classrooms. We watched it all day long. The kids—it was very sad. We all were grieving. So we grieved together. So, what is this? How did this happen? All we could do was speculate. We didn’t know. But what would you, you know, you… Well, first off, I think taking time outside would probably take time away from teaching about the FCAT [Florida’s Comprehensive Assessment Test]. Dombrowski I was going to ask how you think the FCAT has influenced—okay. Skates You know, every week, teachers, back in the day—and I retired in [19]97. Every teacher gave a test at the end of the week. You would take your math book and go through—and everything that I had taught in math that week—the test would be on Friday. Same thing with spelling tests—on Friday. Social studies on Friday. And we did teach social studies. We did teach the Constitution. We did teach early American history. We did teach that. I think that, in fifth grade, we stopped at the Civil War, but that’s all we had time for. So, you gave the test. At the end of the week, you knew what the child had done. By the time you correct those papers, you knew that Johnny and Mary and Susie were having trouble with multiplication. So next week, let’s zero in on those three and their multiplication tables. How hard is that? I mean, why do we have to do what they’re doing now? I don’t understand. Dombrowski I don’t want to interject my opinion too much, but my mother teaches middle school. And so I’ve heard a lot about FCAT, and a great deal about how it’s changed. She used to teach in New York and it’s very different. Skates Oh, yes. I think, even now—well, this friend of mine that came down—she wasn’t a friend at the time, but now she’s my best friend—from Chicago, you know. She’d said, “Oh, my gosh. These schools—they’re so far behind! In Chicago in fifth grade, we were doing this.” And you know, well, it takes a long time. I mean, you know, the [Great] Depression hit the South harder. The agricultural society makes a difference. Kids are not—they may be working in the fields some. I mean not so much in my time, but it was just different. And it takes a long, you know—I think this a lot about even the ship of state, it takes a long time to turn a ship around. And it takes a long time to turn the education system around. It’s like it’s the biggest boat you ever saw and you’re just trying to turn it around and make things better. I think we’ve come a long way, but I think there probably still is a way to go. But now we’ve got—it’s so muddled with this FCAT and this—pushing, pushing these kids. My grandson goes to a parochial school. Goes to St. Luke’s Lutheran Church School in Oviedo. He doesn’t have that stigma hanging over his head. He’s going in third grade. He loves school. He’s a good student. And he struggled to begin with. He had problems with his reading. But if he were in the public school, he would really be in trouble. First off, he’d be going into the third grade. You have to take the FCAT. If you don’t pass that, you have to repeat third grade. Well, his handwriting is very poor, what are you going to do about that? But the private school—they give them more time. They also give them more one-on-one situations. I don’t know. I’m just so that glad that his mother and father—my son and his wife—are so wise. And it’s a sacrifice. It’s a lot of money every month to keep him in private school. He’s their only child, which is a good thing. It’s tough. Your mother is right, and she’s right in the middle of that FCAT business in middle school. Dombrowski Uh, you mentioned the Challenger accident. Are there any other events that stick out in your mind, that you remember teaching or going through with your students? Skates What did we have? [John F.] Kennedy’s assassination didn’t affect me, but it did my children. They were in elementary school and Kennedy was assassinated—my two older ones. They were talking about this, not long ago, about the atomic bomb scare with the Cuban Missile Crisis. They were talking about the duck-and-cover. You know, an atomic bomb is blowing up over your state, and what do you tell the kids to do? You tell them to get under their desks and cover their head[sic]. That involved them. I wasn’t teaching in ’63. Let’s see, what else could there be? Thinking back to Kennedy, I can’t think of anything else. Dombrowski Okay. Did UCF opening or Cape Canaveral opening change… Skates It did. I think it changed. With the Cape, with Geneva—the school—when we started getting the influx of people moving to that area. The fathers were engineers and the moms worked, most of them, over there too. Those were great kids. I don’t know, maybe because the parents were involved in scientific things like the engineering and everything. Every couple years, it seems like they come up with something new. Your mother can relate to this too. They taught us what they call the “New Math.” And I’d only been teaching a couple years and we had this great, and I still have the book—a great big blue book about New Math. Well first off, we were supposed to be teaching the metric system, and that was because of the engineering thing, I think. But they had—I remember one of the fathers was an engineer and he came to school and I was struggling as much as the kids were. They gave us the course in the summer and we were supposed to start teaching it in the fall. So I really didn’t—nobody had a chance. The father came in, he said, “Do you have any idea what you’re doing?” Now, how do you talk to an engineer? And I was honest with him, “Well, yes. I do.” I said, “We had six weeks.” I think we had a course. And I said, “Not as much as I’ll know at the end of this year.” And he said, “Well, my son doesn’t know what the hell’s going on.” I said, “Well, I am really sorry.” But he was very nice about. But he really kind of put me on my toes. Which was a good thing. I’m glad he did. But by the end of the year, I even knew what prime numbers were [laughs]. Dombrowski [laughs]. Skates In fifth grade, you teach addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. I figured the fact that I could multiply and divide fractions—I was pretty smart [laughs]. Dombrowski [laughs]. Skates Don’t go beyond that. Oh dear. Dombrowski I just have a couple specific questions left. If you wouldn’t mind, just because it’s a personal history about you, what were the names of your children—are the names of your children? Skates Phillip, Pamela—well, he’s Jimmy. And the youngest is Bill. They all have their given names, but that’s what we call them. They were—Phillip was born in [19]5—he was born ’54. I have a nice little rubric here. Pam was born in ’56. Jimmy was born in ’58. And Bill was born in ’63. I think I was busy going to school there or something. Dombrowski Uh, where—which schools did you teach at? You taught at Geneva. Skates I taught at Geneva. That was my first assignment. Well, I went to Southside, which is a school in Sanford right near my home—was where I did my internship, and that’s where my kids went to school. And that’s an old—that was—when I bought my house, that was the best school in Sanford. And that’s the reason I bought that house. It’s now been turned into—what did they call it? A nursing home. Golden Years nursing home. It’s a lovely school. It’s built in a square and in the center is an atrium. And all the classrooms are built around the atrium. And down in the basement is the lunchroom, and up a little flight of stairs in the auditorium. It was a very nice plan for a school, but it’s a nice plan for a nursing home, I guess. But they closed the school, because they built new schools and whatever. But my kids got to go through that, which I was glad for that. At least the two oldest ones did. And then the other two came with me to Geneva. What was the question? Dombrowski Oh. Which schools have you taught at? Skates Oh, and then I went, I was at Goldsboro [Elementary School. This was a good thing. When I left Geneva, and I had gotten my Master’s in Exceptional Education, and I wanted to teach learning disabled children. And the principal at Geneva, for his own reasons, said he wasn’t going to have a special ed[ucation] class. Well, it wasn’t true, but that’s what he told me. So I had this Pell Grant that I had used to get my Master’s, that if I taught at a [Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965] Title I school, which I don’t know if you know that means now, but it was a school that had more free lunches than any other school or something like that. So the principal at Goldsboro called me and he said, “If you come and teach the learning disabled children at Goldsboro,” he said, “I can sign off on your student loan.” So I spent two years there and signed off all that my Master’s cost me. I mean, I had not paid for—he would sign off the loans—the superintendent would sign it off… Dombrowski So they would pay for it. Skates So they paid for it. So that was very good. I don’t know if that’s what you call a Pell Grant. I’ve forgotten. But I taught there two years and then the principal from Idyllwilde called and said they had a new wing opening up. They call it the E Wing—Exceptional Ed. Wing. And would I come out and do their SLD [Specific Learning Disabilities] classes. I said, “Oh, yes.” So that’s where I was when I retired. Dombrowski Okay. Skates That was good. I—those were good years. They were all good years. Dombrowski Well, good.Those are all the questions and topics that I have. Is there anything else you’d like to speak to that we haven’t? Skates I don’t know. I think I’m probably boring you. Dombrowski [laughs] Well, no. This is a good time. Skates Now, how are they going to work this? Are they going to have a library? Dombrowski Yeah, I think I’ll just… Skates Right. <div> <div> <a title="">[1]</a> Correction: July 9, 2010 </div> <div> <a title="">[2]</a> Naval Air Station (NAS) Sanford. </div> <div> <a title="">[3]</a> Correction: Richmond, Virginia. </div> <div> <a title="">[4]</a> St. John’s Church. </div> <div> <a title="">[5]</a> Correction: Richmond, Virginia. </div> </div> ACL Alexander Ramsey Alicia Clarke altars ambassadors assassinations Atlantic Coast Line Railroad atomic bombs beauty shops Belair Grove Belgium bells Bette Skates Bye Lo Hotel Cape Canaveral carpetbaggers Cathedral Church of St. Luke charities charity church church bells churches citrus citrus groves Civil War Clarke, Alicia Cochran, Georgia cockroach cockroaches community service Craftsman Airplane Bungalow Crooms High School Cuban Missile Crisis desegregation Diana Dombrowski Downtown Sanford education educators elementary school Episcopal Church Episcopalianism Episcopalians exceptional education FCAT Ferrante Brothers fires Florida's Comprehensive Assessment Test Gateway to South Florida Geneva Geneva Elementary School Gertrude Dupuy Gertrude Dupuy Sanford Guiding Light for Grace and Grits Historical Society of Central Florida Holeman Holy Cross Episcopal Church homeless hurricanes Idyllwilde Idyllwilde Elementary School Jack Kennedy John F. 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