Kelley
Okay, I’m with Florence [Patchell] O’Connor. Florence was born November 10th, 1931. Florence has been a volunteer at the [UCF] Public History Center since 1996. She started in the 1996-1997 school year, when it was still called the Student Museum [and Center for the Social Studies]. We are conducting this interview for the Public History Center’s History Harvest event and we’ll be hearing about Florence’s experiences as a teacher and volunteer at the Student Museum. Today is October 11th, 2012, we are at the Public History Center in Sanford, Florida, and my name is [Mary] “Katie” Kelley. Okay, Florence. Can you tell me a little bit about yourself, um—about you childhood and your experiences prior to, um, coming to the museum?
O’Connor
About my childhood? I—I can’t remember that far back.
Kelley
[laughs].
O’Connor
But [clears throat] I am a school teacher. I don’t want to say former, ‘cause school teachers never die, I guess. Uh, I was in Pennsylvania teaching, and then when I was 29, I married my husband and moved to New Jersey. I was able to acquire two children through the marriage, so I did not keep teaching, but I stayed home to raise them and to raise the other three children that came along. However, I did do some substitute work at that time in New Jersey. Uh, we moved to Florida in 2000—no, we didn’t—in 19—uh, boo boo, right? 1991 and again we—our children were all gone by then, but we were co-parenting three grandchildren. So I was not able to go back to teaching right away, but by 1996, I was able to think about coming back, and you might be interested—I have, uh, notes here.
You might be interested to know that the way I got to the museum was—there was an article in the newspaper and they were asking for docents, uh—people who would like to teach in the museum. My husband and I drove over. There was no one outside. He said, “My, this is a very busy place,” but I did go in, and, uh Serena [Rankin Parks] Fisher, who was the director at that time—[clears throat] pardon me [clears throat]—took me around the building and told me about the different rooms. We had no Geography [Lab: Where in the World Are We?] room at that time, or the [American] Ingenuity room. They were not open as far—as I recall. I like to joke that I always wanted to work in Williamsburg[, Pennsylvania], and to be one of those people there in one of the buildings. However, this, to me, was a poor man’s Williamsburg. I was able to dress up and, um, be, um, an active teacher in the different rooms.
Kelley Can you tell me a little bit about what it was like when you first started volunteering at the museum?
O’Connor
Okay, when I first started, I truly did more in the Native American [Exhibit: Life in an Ancient Timucuan Village] room. For some reason, I leaned toward that room. I would do the others every once and a while, but, uh, that was my one I really liked the best, and then, I tried the [Turn of the Century] Classroom[: Lessons from 1902], and again, in the classroom you were wearing the costume of the day—of 1990—of 1902, where you would have a black skirt and a white blouse and you carried your hanky, ‘cause that’s what they did in those days, and you were very strict. Uh, [clears throat] Pardon me. Uh, I had fun. I wasn’t as strict as I am now, when I first started, it—it sort of eroded that I became more strict, and one of the things that I do make them do is to sit outside of the room and we discuss the fact that in 1902, children had to sit straight, had to sit with their hands folded, their feet flat on the floor, and put their hand up if they want to participate and talk to me [laughs].
Kelley
Um, why did you decide to become involved, um—uh, you talked a little bit about this, but what—what was it about the fact—it was the poor man’s Williamsburg that made you want to volunteer?
O’Connor
Well, the thing is, as I say, “School teachers never die. They just sort of fade away,” and, uh, I wanted something extra to do. My grandchildren had moved on—back to with their mom—well, their mom was with us, but she remarried and they moved on, and I had really nothing to do. I was subbing—at that time, I was subbing at Wilson School, and I would keep Thursday open to come to the museum. That was my day. I did not take any substituting jobs on that day, because I was depended on here at the museum.
Kelley
Can you describe what your typical day, uh, at the Student Museum has been like, or at the Public History Center has been like?
O’Connor
I sure can. Okay, at the museum, what I would do when the children came in—again, it would depend if I was substituting or if I was just a docent.—when I substituted, I would do the, uh, verbal reading outside, and then we go upstairs and we talk a little more, and then we would go into a 45-minute class each time, and, uh, as I said before, they would start out in the hallway, and then I would take them in and they were not allowed to speak, and it was really cute to see that they really took on the character of the children in, uh, 1902, and then while I’m in the room—I think that’s part of this question you, uh—I would have them look around the room to see what was different from their classroom and what was different here at the museum.
Kelley
Um…
O’Connor
[laughs].
Kelley
Do—do you have any—I mean, what else did you do when you, um—did you just teach or did you assist with lunch and that kind of thing? Or…
O’Connor
Oh, with the children? Well, they would have two classes in the morning and then they would break for lunch, and again, it would depend on whether I was just a docent or a volunteer or in charge, because at lunch time, when we went upstairs, the director of the museum or the person in charge would talk about 1902 lunches and how they would not eat up there, because that was the auditorium, and then we also would show them, um, a box of animal crackers, which was first started—made in 1903, and why did it look the way it did, and the reason was the string was put on it to use to hang on the tree. It was a Christmas ornament. So they ate the cookies, they hung ‘em on the tree—the box—and then the box itself became a toy for them, and we shared all that and again, about their lunches with their bottles of soda and their water, you know? We would go out to the well and we would try to just show them, even at lunch time, the difference between 1902 and now, when they were eating.
Kelley
Um, why was it so—why was it such an important teaching technique for you to show them the differences?
O’Connor
Well, I don’t think children realize how well-off they have things sometimes, and, uh, eh, it was one of those things where, um, they didn’t think about the differences, you know, when they—the flag in the 1902 classroom is a[sic] artifact from 1902, and big and dirty and they never—they would try to guess why it was different, and usually a child would put their hand up, stand up to talk to me, and realize there were fewer stars in the blue field than now, and that was what—and just comparing what they have now and what we had then.
Kelley
What do you think, um—what do you think was the value then for them in—in coming here? When they left, what do you think that the students walked away with?
O’Connor
I meant to look up the sign and I didn’t come in time for it, but we have a sign that says, “Tell me and I forget. Show me and I might remember. Involve me and I will—it will become part of me.” Something like that, and I think that’s the whole thing, by them having hands-on. When we did—when I do the classroom, after they look around and decide different things, um, we would read from a McGuffey reader, again, trying to compare the difference from what their books are to our books now—or, uh, then rather—and, uh, we wrote on slates with the chalk, and I do have a—a funny situation, I guess, that could come in here.
Um, when I do teach the classroom, I always have my hanky, and [inaudible] right before that, I do walk through the classroom with a ruler, and the children would say, “Are you going to hit me?” And I’d look at them and say, “Well, it is 1902, so if you don’t behave…” And, you know, I had the ruler, and then when their hands were folded, I—if a girl had nail polish on, I would hit the desk, and then I’d laugh and say, “I didn’t hit you now, but would you please stand up?” And they would and they’d be scared really, and, um, then I would point out to them—or I would ask them, “Why am I so upset?” Well, they had different answers, but the main answer is nail polish was not invented in 1902, and they would say, “Well, you’re not allowed to wear it in school,” “Children aren’t allowed to wear it.” No, it wasn’t invented, and then I would ask them if they brought their hanky to school, and, uh, of course, they didn’t. So I would blow my nose and put my hanky back in my pocket, and you should have seen the faces like…
Kelley
[laughs].
O’Connor
You know, and I would say, “Well, what do you do?” And their answer was “Well, we use tissues.” So then I would ask them to explain a tissue to me, and basically they’d say it—“It’s paper,” and then I would be shocked and say, “You want me to blow my nose on paper when I have such a nice soft hanky?” And, uh, then I would explain to them that tissues—or Kleenex, whatever—were not made until 1929, and then we’d have a little laugh, because that’s when my husband was invented.
Kelley
[laughs].
O’Connor
And they think that’s funny, but that was the kind of thing—I do have an example and it’s sort of a funny one. I had them sitting like this and I saw nail polish, and it was a little boy that had nail polish on, and I had to continue, ‘cause I’d already told Katie or Mary to stand up, and I said, “Oh my goodness,” and he goes, “I have it on, ‘cause I made a bet with my sister and she said I wouldn’t do it and I’m getting five dollars.” So there again we just had a good laugh, and the children, uh—I asked if it was worth five dollars and some of them said, “No,” and some said it would have been, so that’s—that was that.
Kelley
Do you think you—you’ve been here for quite a long time teaching at the Student Museum. Um, have your experiences changed from the early days until know with either how the students react, or with how you teach, or—what has been the difference?
O’Connor
Okay, there’s[sic] two things—I did make a list last night—you sort of—we sort of fell right into my next thing.
Kelley
[laughs].
O’Connor
I was teaching one day in this classroom, and after the—we were ready to go home, a little girl came up to me and she said, “Well, I liked your classroom, but I didn’t like you,” and I said, “Well, that’s okay, Katie, because I didn’t like you too much either,” and she looked at me and she said, “You can’t say that to me,” and I said, “Well, I just did,” ‘cause she was a little—little—you know, little 2011-type child who was just trying to rule the room, and another thing that I thought was so neat, um—I was the substitute at this time, and, uh, I did welcome the bus that came, and the group comes off with their chaperones and we take them upstairs, and at that time, we were not ringing the bell. The bell has been fixed and it’s wonderful. We can hear the school bell ring, but anyway, we went upstairs and I continued and the mother looked at—called me over, I guess, and she said, uh, “Are you from New Jersey?” And I said, “Yes, ma’am, I am.” Uh, “From Marlton, New Jersey?” And I said, “Yes, ma’am.” Well, here the mother was a child that I had taught—or when she was a child, I had taught here in New Jersey, and her comment was, “When I got off that bus and I saw you—I get the chills— saw you standing there, I couldn’t believe that I saw you again,” and that was a neat experience. I really—it’s a shame to think I didn’t change in those last 10 years, but, uh, she did remember me, and she lived right up the street from me. In fact, I believe she played with my older girls, but I’m not—not that sure about that.
Kelley
It’s a small world. My goodness.
O’Connor
Isn’t that something?
Kelley
Uh, how does—speaking of your previous teaching experiences, how does teaching at the museum compare to the more formal classroom setting from when you were, um, teaching at a…
O’Connor
Well, again, this is more hands-on. uh, as I do explain to the children going into the classroom, that I know that their teachers—and I will look at the teachers—allows[sic] you to talk a little bit, but eh, not in my room [laughs], you know, but each room is so different that it’s hard to compare, and again we only have them for 45 minutes, and you can almost put up with anything for even the—I al—I always will tell them that, you know, “If you don’t like sitting this way, realize in 45 minutes, you’ll be in the Native American room. You’ll be in Grandmom’s[sic] Attic. You will be able to walk around, but in my room, that’s the way we do it.”
Kelley
Are most of the children pretty willing to play along? Do they…
O’Connor
Yes.
Kelley
Do they take on the role?
O’Connor
Yes, they really are, except sometimes, I’d ask a question and they wouldn’t put their hands up and I’d laugh. I’d say, “I think that’s because I make ‘em stand up.” You know, they just went [inaudible], but they—they really did behave. I mean, the—I, uh—I ran a tight ship. I really did, but it was fun, and that’s why I say I started out in the Native American room and it was more casual, and then for some reason, I was in the classroom and I liked it [laughs]. I liked being mean. The only think I didn’t like was one of our uh, form—uh, former—she’s former now. Uh, she would announce to the children that I was the mean teacher and I just wish she’d let them not know that till they got in my room, but that’s alright.
Kelley
So you taught in the Native American room? What were your experiences like in there?
O’Connor
Okay, I’ve done that. I’ve done basically all of them. I’ll start with Native American. Uh, y experience there was, uh—again, my way of teaching it—I had them come in and sit on the floor, and then we would discuss the room, and then I would send them on a scavenger hunt, and I would tell them the different things that, uh, are in the room, and one of them was a six-legged deer, and if they found it—you know, not tell the others—and I’d give them time to walk around and go in the buildings and—because we do have two buildings and one, uh, hut—and, um, they were not allowed to sit in the boat—in the dugout, because it’s so old—but they were allowed to pick up and look at and find—and then they’d come back to the circle and we would discuss what they found, and, uh, we have three bears in there, and we have—and the six-legged deer was just the idea that a Native American had the deerskin on him and that way he could come closer to, you know—to, uh, hunt, and then, uh, I would pick a child to be the fish and he had swim—and some of them are crazy, you know, and I would talk about the costume that they wore, and of course, there’s no costume we can wear, because the Native Americans went topless, and when I would tell that to some of the chi—some of the groups, some of the children—boys and girls—would sort of snicker, not often, and I would say, “Have you been to the beach recently? They don’t wear too much either,” and so we got over that hump, but, uh, it was fun. It was a fun room and they, uh—they liked it.
We used to paint—long ago, when I first started, we used to put, uh, the paint on their faces, and that was to show them—it wasn’t war paint. it was the, uh, chief—I couldn’t think for a minute—chief and their family wore the—the painting on their body to show that they were the—and then it has slowly dwindled down, and we don’t do that anymore, and in a way it’s better, I think, really. They’re not walking around with their faces all painted up.
O’Connor
Oh, and then if you want the other room—I’ve been in the Native—the, uh—oh, I can’t think for a minute—the Pioneer [Exhibit: Before the Settlement of Sanford] room, and there—in there, again, it’s a different format, because they do have clipboards and they go on a hunt there, but write things down, and again, the circle to introduce the fact about pioneers and anyone, even now, could be a pioneer, and they figure out by going to the Moon or going under the sea, and, um, we talk little bit about that, and then I break them into groups. Some go in the cabin with me, which is a three quarter cabin, and we again talk about that, and the others stay outside.
You can always learn something, because I’ve been here since 1906—1906? [laughs] 1996, and Warren, one of our newer docents, taught me that in the cabin there’s a quilt that has no backing to it. Not at all. It’s just fabric, and I just never—I just used to tell the children, “There’s a quilt,” you know, and he’s pointed out to a group of children that that was used for privacy—that at night, they would drape that across the cabin so Mom and Dad would have privacy and the children—so you can always learn something.
The Grandmom’s[sic] Attic was definitely set up as an attic. Really cluttered, and again we had the fun there. We dipped candles—we don’t do that anymore—and we churned butter, and again, there you’d talk a little bit, and then you divide them to go explore and do those things, and then the, uh, Geography Lab[: Where in the World Are We?] is, again, another exploring situation. Did I cover them all?
Kelley
I think so [laughs]. Um, do you have any, um, really memorable experiences that stand out in your mind?
O’Connor
Well, as I say, the—one with the boy with the nail polish.
Kelley
Mmhmm.
O’Connor
I almost like—What do I do now? There’s a boy with nail polish, and then the little girl who didn’t like me very—oh, and there is another one—and then the lady who I taught years ago and it just was thrilling to see her, and then the other experience I had, basically, was there was a group of mothers—maybe three mothers in the back of the line while we were waiting to come in, and children were being a little noisy and I corrected them, but I corrected them not nicely. I corrected them as a 1902 teacher, because I was dressed for that, and you could see the mothers, like, What is this woman doing talking to my child? And I didn’t—I wasn’t nasty. I was—I just said, “Katie, stop talking.” You know? And, um—I’m using your name—and anyway, you could almost see the wheels turning, that I was so sure they were going to call the superintendent of schools and tell them this woman at the museum, you know—and all that. So anyway, I told the director, who was, uh, a different one now—than we have now, and they did come into my classroom, and again, I was strict, and she did speak with them and they said, “That teacher—we didn’t understand. she was so mean,” and so, uh—I can’t think of her first name, but the director said, “Well, once Mrs. O’Connor puts on the costume, she becomes that 1902 teacher,” and, uh, after the whole day was over, one of the women came up to me and told me what had happened and I said, “Yes, I noticed you were really upset,” and she said, “Well, I want to tell you that I understand and you did a very nice job.” So, what—whatever, right?
Kelley
[laughs].
O’Connor
You have to be careful though. You do have to be careful.
Kelley
Um, since UCF [University of Central Florida] took over with the Public History Center,[1] do you, um, [laughs] do[sic] want us to talk anything about that? I mean, is it…
O’Connor
I will. I—I think it’s wonderful.
Kelley
Mmhmm.
O’Connor
I do think you might want—after we get this done, you might want to take this part out. I am just very upset over Grandmom’s[sic] Attic. They have chosen to not have it be an attic. It’s set up as a class—not a classroom—as a room back in the 1900s, and, uh, we had such interesting things in there. It was a clutter. It really was cluttered, and if you don’t want that, I understand Dr. [Rosalind “Rose” J.] Beiler’s, uh, under—thinking, but the children that used to come were just so amazed at what they saw, you know, and they even had, in the room, my skate key, which might sound funny, but the museum had the skates that they used back in the 1930s, when I was a little girl, and I had the skate key. You had it on a ri—string around your neck and you had the key, so you could fix your skates—tightening them and all that. They didn’t have the key, so I donated my key to the museum and to go with the skates. I think they’re still in there in the room.
Kelley
Mmhmm.
O’Connor
And then another thing that happened was, uh, my one daughter, who’s now mother of two and, uh, in her early forties—she, uh, had a big brown bear and I had it. Don’t ask me why I brought it to Florida with me. I have no idea, but I had it and she didn’t want it, and so I donated that to the museum. I donated Cootie game to the museum and I don’t—I haven’t really been back in the attic too much, but I don’t know, you know, where they are, and it was just the toys were in one area and the children could touch them, play with them, see the difference in how that monkey was not like soft and cuddly like they are now, and, so I’d, uh—I—I miss that. We had a wedding dress in there from Serena’s mother, I believe. We had a 1900-bathing suit and I’d ask the children, “Well, what—what—where would you wear this?” “Oh, you’d go to a party.” “Really?” You know? And then we’d talk about that and how everything would be covered in 1902. The hat the glo—they even had socks, not gloves, and, uh—and then we also had a chamber pot, and I don’t think it’s back there now.
So these are the changes and I have to roll with it. I mean, I have to understand it goes on, but the chamber pot was so funny, ‘cause they had two different sized potties and then a big glass one—or ceramic one—and I’d hold up the one and I’d ask, “What would this be for?” They didn’t have to stand up in Grandmom’s Attic, see? That was gone. They didn’t have—and it’d be, “Oh, we could cook our soup in that.” “No, I don’t think you’d want to do that,” and they’d ask, you know, and I’d say, “Well, that’s what they put under the bed because you didn’t want to go out to the outhouse in the middle of the night,” and then, “Who’s the oldest one here in your family?” Well, hands would go up and I said, “Because you would be the one to empty the chamber pot.” Well, then the hands would go down.
Kelley
[laughs].
O’Connor
But that’s my—my hang up. There’s[sic] things that I miss in Grandmom’s[sic] Attic and, uh—but I know progress moves on, and I know they’re planning something different, so…
Kelley
Well, that’s all of my questions. Um, I—I would like for you to share what you shared with me before the interview about the number of kids that you’ve, that you…
O’Connor
Oh, okay.
Kelley
How you figured it out
O’Connor
Well, last night I was doing my list of paper with—oh, I do have something else to tell you…
Kelley
Oh, sure. Oh, sure. Yeah, go ahead.
O’Connor
Before I do that. There’s a, eh—I don’t know what to call it, but they’re doing Lemonade Lectures over in DeBary at DeBary Hall. Every—this is a plug for them—every other Saturday, and it’s experts, and I don’t consider myself an expert really—come in and they talk about lighthouses, or they talk about, this, that and the other thing, and they asked me if I would go and talk about the museum, and I said, “Yes, I would,” and, um, I did bring—I took some artifacts over and some things over. The girls let me borrow them, and I went over there with my charts and my—my costume on, and I talked about that with them, and I guess it might sound conceited, but up until then, there weren’t that many people coming to the Lemonade Lectures. they were just starting. Well, they had to get extra chairs. People from John Knox [Village] came over, ‘cause it was in the paper…
Kelley
Mmhmm.
O’Connor
About this lady who was gonna talk about a museum from 1902, and some of the people even went to school there, and that was fun, and then the other thing I pointed out there was that, in 1902—and I do it in the classroom too—that boys and girls did not play on the same playground. So I would ask that question, and of course, if they did [claps hands], they got a smack on the bottom from the principal and, uh—but that was something that I really felt honored that I did it. At first, I was a little scared, but that wore off, and the Lemonade Lecture was really fun.
Now, Katie has asked me—I got thinking last night. Uh, I worked here at the museum for 15 years, and if I taught 30 children a day, and let’s say, uh, I worked 30 days out of the year, okay? That would be 900 children I’d see in a year, and then I multiplied it by the, um—[inaudible] did I do? Oh, yeah, that was 15—yeah. I added that, rather, what all did I do here? Oh, yeah, okay. I’m with it, I’m with it. The total of that would have been in 15 years—okay, I would have been working with 13,500 children in my career here at the museum. I have chosen to no longer teach here for health reasons, but I do want to still be a part. So they’ve asked me to be a greeter, and maybe a little later, I’ll become a substitute in the, uh—in the classroom. I don’t know.
Kelley
Well, that’s excellent. Well, thank you, Florence. Um, I don’t have anything else, unless do you have anything else you’d like to add?
O’Connor
I don’t think so, no.
Kelley
Alright, well, thank you so much for sharing your experiences with me, and, um, you know, now your interview will become part of the history of this building as well.
O’Connor
Well, thank you for asking me.
Kelley
Thank you.
[1] Correction: Student Museum.
McLaughlin
Alright, today is Wednesday, the 24th of October, 2012. It is 3:05 PM. I am with Dr. Storm [Leslie] Richards at his home in Geneva, Florida, and we’re going to discuss his experiences as related to historic preservation in Sanford, specifically concerning the Sanford Student Museum [and Center for the Social Studies].
Richards
We moved to Sanford in 1953. My dad was in, uh, the Navy at the time, and, um, we came here, uh, when Sanford was a very small community. It was very agriculturally-oriented. Um, there were many, many schools in Sanford. Uh, I went to, uh, about four of them, uh, from about elementary school through high school—all in Sanford, and then I went to Seminole Community College,[1] which was what it was called at the time in the 1970s, uh, and got my Associate of Arts degree, and went on to the University of Florida and finished my Bachelor’s, Master’s, and Doctorate at, uh, the University of Florida in Gainesville. Um, did some graduate work at Tulane University, but, uh, for the most part, I was always at the University of Florida, and I had a very strong interest in historic preservation and archaeology and, uh, urban—urban development, and I think, uh, first time that I really became—became directly, um, associated with the school [inaudible] was I was asked to help write a grant. Um, he grant was originally through the Division of Historical Resources, which is part of Florida Department of State for doing architectural reconstruction and rehabilitation. Um, one of the things that came to me from the very, very beginning was that the school—the [Sanford] Grammar School was such a tremendous resource in terms of historically where[?] Sanford had been. It was constructed in 1907, I think—’02-’07, and, um, it had always been a real focal point for—for education for—for young kids, and I think, uh—I didn’t go to school there and—and I always remember the school having, uh, teeter-totters and having, um, jungle gyms and the having the maypole, uh, swing that the kids would swing around and stuff like that. It’s—it’s the kind of thing where you still remember the kids yelling and screaming, and just, uh, it was a very fun place. Um, academically, I can’t really speak for it, but, uh, I can remember that—that there was always a lot of activity there, and the school, uh, that I identified with the grant that I worked on was a very important hub for Sanford and for Seminole County to—to look at something historic and say that so many people had gone there and so many people’s lives had been involved. I just thought it was a wonderful focal point, um, to try to keep, and, uh, at that time, they were really the first time that they were getting into the notion of it being an historic properties, and being important for a museum, and—and I was just really, uh, excited about that for the kids to be able to go back and look at things the way they were a hundred years ago.
McLaughlin
All right. Um, in what capacity were you involved, specifically with the grant-writing process?
Richards
Um, because I was—I am a certified archaeologist, and I have a really strong background in historic preservation with the University of Florida and the Urban Re-Use and Planning Department, I was asked to—to come in and take a critical look at if the site was really historic. Now, it had already been designated on the [U.S.] National Register of Historic Places, which one would assume would make it very important, uh, but because it’s part of a district, um, that’s not necessarily the case, and you really want a building like that to stand on its own, be—because the importance not of just the neighborhood, but the importance of it being, uh, the structure that was there, uh, and so I put together, uh, all of the documentation on, uh, why it was historically important, and what it meant to the community, and why the state should look at it as being not just some local landmark, but as something that was important to the county and the State of Florida.
So I wrote that up, and what really ended up happening was that the state looked at that and felt that there was enough merit there that it was designated on a, uh, state list of very important, uh, uh, schools for the State of Florida and it was designated as such with that important notice. I think that the other thing that I did was, uh, I contacted a number of commissioners and a number of people that had on a say on, uh—on how money was being spent, whether it was the school board of, uh, Seminole County, because it was certainly a focus of not just the City of Sanford, but the county also, uh, and told them the importance of preserving that, because at a certain point, older buildings have a way of just deteriorating to the point that they can no longer be used, and it takes an investment, and sometimes, that investment can actually cost more than—than new construction, you know? Rehabilitation’s a very expensive proposition, but what it does for a community, in terms of identifying the importance of a city, and importance of schools, and importance of looking at the people who got an education there and what they went on to do, and is—and it is far more important than any single dollar value.
McLaughlin
Right, I see. About how long did that process take from start to finish? From the beginning to the end[?]? [laughs].
Richards
It took probably—the grants program probably took six months.
McLaughlin
Hm.
Richards
I think though the writing that I did, because I had a familiarity with it, was probably in days.
McLaughlin
[laughs].
Richards
I’m very quick at what I do, and so I think I wrote the, uh, four- or five-page report of why it was important in—in a day or two days.
McLaughlin
Excellent, and what year was this again?
Richards
You know, I think it was probably about, uh, 10 or 15 years ago. I mean, it was probably in the [19]90s—[inaudible] or something like that.
McLaughlin
So like 90s?
Richards
Yeah.
McLaughlin
Right, and who all—do you remember which people from the museum you worked with?
Richards
Se—Serena [Rankin Parks] Fisher…
McLaughlin
Serena Fisher.
Richards
Uh, she was, you know—and I’ve known her for years and years before that, because she’s a geographer and an educator, and—and I’m a geographer also, and so I knew her from the Florida Alliance, um, which was a group of educators who try to—to convey the importance of educating children, and she was working the museum, and, uh, it was the kind of thing that I felt real honored to help her with, because of the possibility of helping people, and, uh, when you drive by the school even today, which I did,
McLaughlin
[laughs].
Richards
Um, it’s one of those things that you can go look at and be proud that it’s still there, because it could be somebody’s patio brick, you know?
McLaughlin
Yeah.
Richards
And—and so it’s a real good place for kids to go and look at the way that things used to be.
McLaughlin
Excellent, and were there any other instances in Sanford, in which you helped with local preservation efforts?
Richards
Um, yes. Uh, the Hopper Academy, which was the African-American school, h, over near the stadium. Uh, I put together the environmental assessment and some of the feasibility studies for—for looking at the rehabbing of that and making that, uh, another focal point, and because it was a wooden building and it had a lot of decay, it was really difficult, and the neighborhood, uh, didn’t lend itself to, you know—there were a lot of transients in the area, and people were sleeping near—in the school, and people were doing a lot of things that were just destructive. I’m not sure that worked out as well as I would have liked, but it was a real, eh, effort for someone to go over there and say, “We’d like to see, you know this—this kept for the community,” and so I worked on that, and, um, also, when I was the senior planner with Seminole County and worked, um, on comprehensive planning, I—I worked very hard to try to get a conservation element that reflected the importance of archaeological and historic sites, um, in—in Central Florida and Seminole County.
In—in the profession that I have now, we do an awful lot of work in Seminole County. Uh, we worked for the airport in Seminole—the Orlando-Sanford [International] Airport. We’ve identified historic sites and identified preservation, uh, concepts for them. [inaudible]. We’ve worked for the Division of Historic Resources on the railroad sites[?] that existed here that came from the 1900s, when they were shipping an awful lot of, uh, produce out throughout—throughout the state and throughout different parts of the country, and so I’ve, you know, worked a lot on different aspects on Seminole County on—on cultural[?] resource assessments and evaluations, uh, both historic and archaeological resources for the county, and provided information for the of State of Florida.
McLaughlin
Excellent, and here’s a little bit of a different question. In your experience working in Seminole County and living here and growing up, how has it changed environmentally? You—what do you think are probably the biggest ways that it’s changed?
Richards
You know, I think—the—the interesting part of that story—and it just hits me immediately—is how recently—this year, someone burnt down the big.[2] They got inside the tree and they lit it on fire, and you have a tree that is older than the for—the 1400s. Before [Christopher] Columbus and…
McLaughlin
Wow.
Richards
This country.
McLaughlin
[laughs].
Richards
And the tree was there, and they burnt it up and destroyed it, and it was considered an “accident,” and it was considered of no great significance, and I can remember riding my bike out to the tree when I was a child from Sanford. It’s—it’s probably halfway between Sanford and Longwood on [U.S. Route] 17-92. Uh, I can remember there was a wonderful book written by [Elvira] Gardner, it was called Ezekiel’s Travels.
McLaughlin
Mmhmm.
Richards
And—and Ezekiel, a little black boy, rode his bicycle out to the big tree and they documented that in the 1930s.
McLaughlin
Wow.
Richards
You know, and—and—and they burnt this tree up and it was considered just kind of a…
McLaughlin
An accident.
Richards
An accident. So, uh—and I think that—it really has an impact, you know?
McLaughlin
Yeah.
Richards
The—the other thing that I can remember that’s changed so much is, when I was, uh, very young, I used to ride my bike down to the—the band shell, and to the, uh—to Lake Monroe, and used to fish there, and there used to be just the band shell, and just the sea wall, and in the last 25 years, you know, they’ve built, uh—they built hotels there, and, uh, they built, uh, mixed used development there. They have had varying degrees of non-success.
McLaughlin
[laughs].
Richards
Uh, but it’s taken away much of the character, you know? I can remember when the zoo was in Downtown Sanford, and, you know, it was a very small zoo. Sorta not like the really nice complex that they have now, but—but Sanford was [inaudible], you know—libraries were there, and it was a place that—that kids went, and young people went, and it was just very different. The [Sanford] Civic Center was a big, big deal, and they had dances every week, and it was just, you know—it was just a place that people went all the time, and, uh, I don’t see that in Sanford anymore. I don’t see that.
McLaughlin
You think some of the character is gone?
Richards
I think—I think the character—and I think that, you know, its—its, um—its environment, and its, um—the neighborhood, and it’s, um—it’s just the changes that have taken place, you know? I can remember the parades in Downtown Park Avenue, and just, um, very large parades that everybody in the community got involved in, and we have something like that now, but [inaudible]—it’s just a, uh—an agglomeration of people with big bands, and—and crazy things happen from early afternoon to way late
McLaughlin
[laughs].
Richards
[inaudible], and it’s just not something that I’m interested in participating in, you know? Probably there are a lot of people that do, but it’s—it’s just very different from when I was raised in Sanford.
McLaughlin
Yeah. As far as developmentally, what effect do you think that the arrival of like Disney Corporation[3] and things like that had on the change, if any?
Richards
Yeah, eh, Disney is a very large beast.
McLaughlin
[laughs].
Richards
And it has a lot of beasts that, uh, have attracted to it—whether it’s the whale beast or the, you know, uh, any number of other international destinations that I think that it’s affected probably not just all of Florida, but the Southeast. It’s the number one tourist destination, you know, in the world, u, and I think it makes Interstate [Highway] 4, which used to be a wonderful opportunity to go to Orlando and you just got on the interstate and ten minutes later, you were in Orlando, and today, it’s, um—it’s questionable if it even functions at all.
McLaughlin
[laughs].
Richards
You know, we have a—we have a toll road system, in which, uh, I was assigned to that. I was Deputy Director of the toll way [inaudible] before they actually started developing it, and it was supposed to relieve the traffic and make traffic a lot different in Central Florida, but Central Florida is so densely populated that it was probably nothing can significantly change that. You know, whether it’s a rail system that they won’t put in, it will cost billions of dollars, whether it’s increasing lanes on I-4, or whether the [Central Florida] GreeneWay builds out. It’s—it’s not going to make the quality of life significantly different, in my opinion, you know, but that’s just part of the price you pay.
McLaughlin
Yeah. Just out of curiosity, how many lanes did I-4 use to be? [laughs].
Richards
You know, I think it was always six—divided six.
McLaughlin
Divided six?
Richards
Yeah, um, eh, it—it had fewer ramps.
McLaughlin
Mmhmm.
Richards
And so they put in more ramps and more access, and it’s—it’s—the speed is much quicker today than it’s ever been. Uh, the Fairbanks [Avenue] curb is a problem that people have been having for years, and everybody’s looking at the engineering and saying, “It’s got to be engineering.” They say, “It’s got to be, you know, your problems,” you know? People are traveling between their ears if they don’t pay attention to traffic, and that’s why we gotta have people at such a quick pace today, you know? It used to be if you made it to work at 8- 8:30, you know, or if you, you know, were just there. Now, everybody fills the building up at 10-to-8, and, you know, so consequently, everybody gets on the interstate and it’s as fast as they can go, and it reminds me a little bit of Atlanta[, Georgia].
McLaughlin
Yeah.
Richards
You know, if you’re not doing 80 [miles per hour], you’re not getting there.
McLaughlin
[laughs].
Richards
I think that the—I think that I-4 is quickly approaching that. If you’re not doing 70, you’re probably not going to make it.
McLaughlin
Yeah.
Richards
You know, that’s just part of reality, part of the [inaudible], and the—the—it’s the quickness of what happens today. It wasn’t like that in the, you know, 1960s.
McLaughlin
Okay, before we go, if you could—would you like to share the story about your father
Richards
Uh…
McLaughlin
And what he did at the Navy base?
Richards
We moved to Sanford in—in ’53. My dad was stationed in Jacksonville, um, before that in the, um—in the Navy, and—and when we moved here, my dad was a navigator bombardier and a mechanic, and when the first jets, which were the [Douglas] A-3D[ Skywarrior]s came from California, my dad was part of the crew that flew the jets from California to Florida. That was before the [North American A-5] Vigilantes, before the larger aircraft. These were, you know twin-engine jets, but their total design and their total purpose was, uh, to launch a, uh, nuclear strike, and—and art of what Sanford, you know—Orlando-Sanford Airport today has the bunkers that they kept the nuclear weapons in, and they were going to load onboard the A-3Ds and—and go to Cuba, and my dad was the slim pickins’ of the aircraft, because it was his job to arm the nuclear weapons—To go back in the bomb bays and arm the nuclear weapons with, uh, I guess a detonation device that you screwed in the—in the nose of the bomb, and that was his job. It—and it was very, very stressful, and you know, at the time, I can just barely remember—I guess I was probably about seven—six or seven years old that all these young kids from the Navy would come over to the house, and they would have parties and stuff, and—and what they were doing was, h, the vanguard of changing the world, if—if they had to, and they all agreed to that—that that’s what they were going to do, and my dad was a really big part of that, and I guess there’s—there’s some pride in that, but there’s also some looking back and saying, “Is this really where we were?”
You know, and [inaudible], and I know today—you know, 2012—we’re still talking about the Cuban Missile Crisis and trying to figure out what really happened, and when you think about the people that were going to do whatever they were told to do, you know, there’s a lot of frighteningness[sic] there, and there is a lot of, Have we gone that far? Or, Are we still in the same place? I kinda think about that occasionally.
McLaughlin
Do you have any other thoughts about Sanford or Seminole County or the Student Museum that you would like to share with us before we…
Richards
I think that the Student Museum is, you know—it—it—it—it’s probably a lot bigger than most people really think. It’s—it’s not a matter of postcards and maps and little things that you can touch or handle, but it’s the notion of where we come from and where we’re going, and will people identify those things in 10 years, in 20 years, in 30 years, and say that, uh—that there was something that was very valuable here? It was something that was very important to a lot of people, and I hope we can still see that, and I hope that that’s, uh, a multicultural thing that—that, uh, everybody can look at and say, “This is—this is where we were, and this is where we are, and lot of good things have taken place.”
McLaughlin
Excellent, and once again, my name is Ian McLaughlin, and I’m interviewing Dr. Storm Richards at his home in Geneva, Florida. Today is Wednesday, the 24th of October, 2012.