Dossie
My name is Porsha Dossie. This is an oral history interview of [Alice] Kathryn Aulin…
Bunch
Bunch.
Dossie
Bunch, and it is April 18th, 2015, and we are at the Lawton House in Oviedo, Florida.
Bunch
Yes.
Dossie
So, Kathryn, please tell me a little bit about growing up in Oviedo. You were born here? Is that correct?
Bunch
I was born here in[sic] July 2nd, 19, uh, 26 [laughs], and lived here ‘til I graduated from high school, but most everything we, uh, did, we did it e—either at the church or at school. That was[sic] our activities in those days—back in those days.
Dossie
Uh, you went to the Oviedo School? Is that right?
Bunch
Uh huh, it was just one school. You went from first through, um, twelfth, and then you graduated from there, and it was only three of us that graduated, because it was wartime. Not that we had that many to start with, but with—it was ‘cause of the war and the boys were gone—had gone off to be in service during World War II.
Dossie
What was that like?
Bunch
We just got used to the war. We—I mean, like, a lot of things that were different—uh, you were limited, uh, to a lot of things back then that, Uh, you couldn’t, uh,—you couldn’t buy clothe[sic]—or shoes—leather shoes. You were limited to so many like that and things, uh, but other than that, we got used to it, and, uh, had, uh, some—I—I was older when I was—in high school, I was—had boyfriends that would go off to the service and come—and not come back, and that was sorta sad too, uh, in those days. We had servicemen stationed in, uh—in the [Armed] Service, uh, in the woods near here too, as well as—they were—their main place was in Orlando, but they would be over here at different times, and my father[1] ran the—we had two swimming pools, and there was, um, dance hall there, and, uh, he ran the swimming pools, and we—that’s where we had a number of the service boys—would come and dance there with—as well as the local, but we didn’t have that many local boys of that age around anymore. So…
Dossie
Mmhmm.
Bunch
That was it.
Dossie
What were the swimming pools called?
Bunch
They were the Oviedo swimming pool. It was, um, by the city, and they did away with ‘em. Uh, I have a couple of pictures of them that—I don’t know if they still ever—that—there’s—it still belongs to the City [of Oviedo].
Dossie
Mmhmm.
Bunch
The property does, but the pools have been done away with, and they got ballparks there or somethin’ now, but that was the thing to do. Uh, we had a sm—a small and a large one, uh, and he man—he managed those for—during that period of, um—my daddy did for a while.
Dossie
Was that the—Sanlando?
Bunch
No, we went to Sanlando when you went—go on a big date[?].
Dossie
[laughs].
Bunch
[laughs] I have a picture of, uh—of the three…
Dossie
Mmhmm.
Bunch
The three seniors at Sanlando, and it, uh—in my book, or it’s in our yearbook, I think.
Dossie
So tell me a bit about your yearbook. I know you brought that with you today…
Bunch
Uh huh.
Dossie
To be scanned. You made that yourself?
Bunch
We, uh—we put it together, although I’m sure somebody else helped us, uh, but we did have to glue the pictures in, and, uh, I noticed that I—in the other one—the year before me—that we typed the words in there, and actually, I noticed that in one place, the typing—if we made a mistake, instead of erasing the letters, just typed back over it, which [laughs] would not be a thing to have done, I don’t think, in those days, but they’re hand-typed. I mean, everything was done by hand, not woven books and things, like they are nowadays, but other than that—and we had an awful of, uh—I was a Baptist, and we all went to the Baptist church, and did most everything—social life was there, as well as school. Those were our two main things [sniffs] to do during—but other than that, I don’t—I…
When we left Orlando, we still [inaudible], uh—I graduated from high school, but I had a job in Orlando, uh, my last year, and I started working at the bank. My sister—older sister[2]—two years older than me—was already working in Orlando, so I moved from Oviedo to Orlando, and been there the rest of my life, after that.
Dossie
So you, uh—what did you do at the bank?
Bunch
Teller. When you started out, in those days, at the bottom, you learned every step. Nowadays, I understand you go in whatever department you’re gonna—but you—you started answering the phone, then[?] learning the each thing—bookkeeping—and, uh, I ended up—I was a teller when I left.
Dossie
So how did you meet your husband?[3]
Bunch
That was—my mother-in-law[4] was a big person to go into bank, and I understood she wanted my husband, who was in the service—and I didn’t know ‘im. I knew her from being a customer at the bank, but, uh, she wanted to have him meet her—my sister, but for some reason, he just—and she was already there two years ahead of me.
Dossie
Mmhmm.
Bunch
But for some reason, he would rather have met me, so…
Dossie
[laughs].
Bunch
[laughs] I dated him, and we met, uh—we married later on, uh, after he’d come out of the service. He was a—in the—she had, uh, property in—in, uh, cattle and dairy and a ranch, and he was in the ranch business at that time, after he came out of the service, and we married, had two girls,[5] and that’s been it.
Dossie
So, um, growing up in Oviedo, you knew the, uh, Wheelers and the Evans? Is that correct?
Bunch
The Wheelers were actually kin—uh, my daddy’s sister, Mary Ann, um—Mattie, uh, Wheeler[6] married, uh—he—that’s his sister—married [Robert] Lee Wheeler, who was a brother to Frank Wheeler, uh, that had Nelson and Company and those[?]…
Dossie
Mmhmm.
Bunch
And there was the Law—Lawtons and the, uh, Lees, and the—all those were, uh—they—they were the people in Oviedo, and everybody knew everybody back in those days.
Dossie
Mmhmm.
Bunch
And, uh, I actually—my daddy, uh—the man that, uh—my daddy’s dad[7]—that named Oviedo was born—he was—the house at where he was born is still here,[8] as I understand. It doesn’t look anything like it did…
Dossie
[laughs].
Bunch
Back then. They’ve changed it around, but it’s still there.
Dossie
Mmhmm.
Bunch
But…
Dossie
So you said the Wheelers were kin?
Bunch
Yes, uh, Lee Wheeler—my aunt married—was a brother to Frank Wheeler. That—like I said, they were—and, um—and I think I, uh—we’ve got the background all in—in all these books and things, and[?] the Lawtons—there’s a com—combination of—way back there, with all those—that’s first started. Now, about the Lees, I’m not real sure, but they were here too. They were another family that was—but everybody knew everybody…
Dossie
Mmhmm.
Bunch
Back in those days—and you—for some reason, we never did—did—my sister and I have talked about it since—why the women went to the Methodist church—most of ‘em—of the husband and wife, and the men went to the Baptist church. I, uh—not in our family, but m—most of ‘em—a lot of ‘em, that’s the way it worked, and you—still, you got together, eh, for socials and things like—I mean, you got together with the two churches, but for some reason, the women all seemed to be—want, uh—go to the Methodist church, and we—but I went to the Baptist all my life and still do [laughs].
Dossie
What kind of social events did you guys have at the Baptist church?
Bunch
Well, just, uh—just nothing really that much. Uh, picnic-type things, and, uh, we had, uh, training you, uh—the one thing I did do, which isn’t the thing[?] to try to tell, uh, we had BYPU[9] or BTU, we called it—Baptist Training Union—at night, which is like—Sunday mornin’, you have Sunday school, and at night, and I would have a date. I could go to trainin’ union and not stay for church at[sic] Sunday night, and this was a, uh, typical thing, and it—I wasn’t the only one that did this. It was a—but that was the thing to do Sunday night, and we’d—we’d go to Winter Park. Uh, that was the place to go after—and, uh, go, uh, to a movie, and then go to, uh, get Coke and a sandwich, and come home. That was just a typical Sunday, uh, night. We went to, uh—did that, back in those days, but we didn’t, uh—anything that we had as far as social things, uh—there weren’t that many. I mean, it was something at the church, or, uh, it was eating or something, and I’m, uh—but, uh, other than that, I don’t remember too much, but[?] that’s about it. I [laughs]…
Dossie
So let me ask you about, um, the influence of the military on Oviedo in the 1940s. How did that affect your life here in Oviedo?
Bunch
It—it did. Like I said, we met a lot of them men that were stationed here, and, uh, That’s when we could go to the pool and, uh, could dance, and Met a lot of ‘em that way, and then, uh—but, uh—and some of them even dated other people, because I remember, uh, one going with my sister to church. Uh, I mean, they were close enough friends if they were doing that, back in—they were very good. I—we didn’t—we didn’t mind ‘em being here, by any means. It was something going on. ‘Course, war was just so different, anyhow, back then. I mean—and then when they left here, we went, uh—moved to Orlando, and we still did things with the service people there, uh, at the different things that were for so—the soldiers back then too. Went to dances and things like that. That was mainly what most of the things were. Although, I have some pictures I’ve seen that we were at a lake out there at the—at the, uh, base[10] in our bathing suits and things, with the boys out there. So we did do things out there at the base too.
Dossie
Mmhmm.
Bunch
Uh, but it was just different than things are nowadays [laughs], but an awful lot of boys stayed—married people and, uh—and just like in Sanford, they married, uh—a lot of the Navy people are married to Sanford people too. So other than that, I really don’t know too much to report on that.
Dossie
So we can discuss some of the items you brought today. You brought your yearbook? Um…
Bunch
Yeah.
Dossie
What else did you bring?
Bunch
Well, the, um—my, uh, my sister-in-law wanted a copy of a letter that was written by Steen Nelson, as to how Oviedo was named. Our fa—grandfather, they say named—I mean, and—why he named it Oviedo and that business. So I—that’s in the—one of those copies, and I had an annual, uh, yearbook for the fo—where we got to get together for our 50th, uh—the other class—we didn’t have but two that showed up, but they—for our 50th anniver—graduatin’, we have a book on that. That’s in—in those things that I saved, uh, but we didn’t have but two that showed up for that [laughs]. That was me and, uh, one boy, and he’s still here in Oviedo, I understand.
Dossie
Mmhmm.
Bunch
Auliff[?] [inaudible], and, um, other than that, I don’t know…
Dossie
You brought some…
Bunch
Uh…
Dossie
44s?
Bunch
Uh, my letters for my—I got a—I was, uh—played basketball in high school…
Dossie
Mmhmm.
Bunch
When I was—got a 44 and a[sic] O for, uh, my letter, with my stripes and stars on it for being captain—co-captain, and, uh, they’re in there—the O and the 44, and I also have an [U.S. Army Air Force Aircraft Warning Service] armband that I got from havin’ watched planes go over, uh, during wartime. We—we each had a shift. They had a tower they built over in Downtown Oviedo, and, uh—in front of the [First] Baptist Church [of Oviedo], and, uh, we would report whatever plane was going over and[?] the direction, and I’m pre—I’m thinking we were reporting back to the base, or somethin’, what kind of plane. Now, why I would know, uh—I’m sure they taught us how and all that.
Dossie
Mmhmm.
Bunch
But that was what it was, and they gave us an arm—and I have that in there to give to the His—[Oviedo] Historical Society.
Dossie
What was that like watching the planes overhead?
Bunch
Uh, I don’t know.
Dossie
[laughs].
Bunch
I’m thinkin’ back. I—I don’t know that I was that smart about it, but I guess they were tryin’ to get—and they would get more[?] girl—people they would get…
Dossie
Mmhmm.
Bunch
On, uh—and you had a shift, I’m sure, you know, and, uh, went[?]—went there after school or whenever. Maybe it was a weekend, um—on the weekend. I—I just know we did it same time at—why they chose to do it right[?] there in Oviedo? I don’t know. I guess they did it in all kind of different areas of the—around the bases, but, uh, that was part of it, and—and they gave us a[sic] armband to put on that says that that’s what you were. So I have—I saved that and my letters, and I never did use ‘em for anything. I didn’t put ‘em on a sweater, I don’t think.
Dossie
Hm.
Bunch
But that was about it. It wasn’t very [laughs], uh—not—not like it was nowadays with young people, and things[?] goin’ up, but was good.
Dossie
Mmhmm.
Bunch
I’ve enjoyed it.
Dossie
Mmhmm.
Bunch
I had, uh, two sisters[11] and, uh, two brothers,[12] and, uh, so we had pretty good-sized family to—to deal with, and my daddy—as well as having the pool, he did do a lot with examining fruit, uh, to be sure it was ready to be picked and that, and he did that for quite a few years too—too, and my mother[13] worked at Nelson and Son, but she was a seamstress, and she did a lot of, uh, sewing for people. Uh, you know, the [inaudible].
Dossie
So they both working at the Nelson packing company here?
Bunch
Mmhmm, both ‘em had, mmhmm. matter of fact, my mother was working there when my youngest brother[14] was still too—too young, uh—little to go to school, and she would—would keep him in one of the—the places where they were packin’ the oranges, and I—when school was out, I’d go out do there and get him and go back home with him, and I got a nickel to go by the drugstore, which was in the center of Downtown Oviedo, to get a Coca-Cola, and—and he[?] got ‘em off of a fountain. The man behind the fountain would give[?] them to you. That was one thing I remember—and ordered—that was my payment for…
Dossie
[laughs].
Bunch
Eh, takin’ care of him ‘til she got home.
Dossie [laughs].
Bunch
But, uh, we did—didn’t have a lot of money, but we had—we had plenty to get by with, and that was the way it worked in those days.
Dossie
So tell me about, uh, your siblings. You just—you mentioned that you had brothers and sisters.
Bunch
Well, I had one girl—one sister that was two years older, and, uh, she was smart—very smart, and, uh—and why she—how she got the job in Orlando ahead of time? I don’t know, but anyway, she moved over there, and, uh, as a teller at the bank, and, uh—and I—we did not go to college that much in those days. The girls didn’t then[?], and, uh, [inaudible] we couldn’t have afforded it anyway, I’m sure, but, uh, she liked the bank and was doing alright and had a place in Orlando called the [inaudible] Community Club, which was right down near the center of Downtown Orlando, and, uh, you stayed there and you got your food and that kind of stuff, and she knew that I was graduatin’ and that—she thought I’d get a job there, so I did. I went over and applied and they gave it to me, and I moved in and we stayed there at the [inaudible] Community[?] Club, and that’s when went to a place in Downtown Orlando to dance with the USO.[15] Uh—they had a place for—but, uh, she started making too much money to stay at [inaudible] Community[?] Club, which was part of the deal. I mean, the—and so we all moved to a place down out of there, uh, and then—but stayed there ‘til I get married—met my husband and we got married, and that was it, but then I have a sister that’s here, and she’s giving information today. She’s an artist, and I had a brother,[16] but he went to Texas. He—he was in the service, uh, also, and he’s no longer living, and my older sister isn’t either, but my other sister’s here, and she’s[sic] lives in Lake Mary, and, um, is an artist, and she’s doing a lot of work today for them, and then I’ve got my brother[17] that lives here in Oviedo, and he and his wife[18] live here, and that’s it—that I…
Dossie
Mmhmm.
Bunch
With us—the rest of the family, but all the rest of ‘em are gone, but we’ve got the sister here and the brother here, and that’s—and me—of the family—of the five of us. That’s what’s left. I’m the oldest of the group.
Dossie
[laughs].
Bunch
[laughs].
Dossie
Well, is there anything else you’d like to tell me about Oviedo that we haven’t covered yet?
Bunch
No, it’s, eh—it—it is—nothing the same.
Dossie
[laughs].
Bunch
I don’t know my way around it at all. I—I just cannot—I—how much the church, uh—how big it is, uh—has added and added to, uh, and I came out, went to church [inaudible], and there was no—well, the person that I—only person I knew that I saw—that I knew that day and he’s [inaudible]. He was a Wheeler—Frank Wheeler, Jr., and, um, I didn’t know anybody, and—just like I don’t know anybody out here nowadays, uh, but, uh, my mother is, uh—she’s been dead a pretty good while, and, uh, that—once she was gone, then I didn’t come back out like I did to—did later on, but, uh, it’s grown, and that’s for sure, and I keep seeing it goin’ more too, but other than that—and back in our day, we didn’t have anything but a Methodist and Baptist church. Now, I’m sure they got all of ‘em different ones…
Dossie
[laughs].
Bunch
Now, out here now.
Dossie
Has the growth surprised you?
Bunch
Yes, it really has. It’s—it’s—it is—it’s much—than I would’ve thought when I was growing up, yes, um, ‘cause like I said, you knew everybody, but I think it’s this way with other small towns, but probably the way they do, but this one has grown from what it was back in our day. That’s for sure, but other than that, I don’t know. Eh, I—I really don’t know of any other—and I don’t know if I know anybody that lives out here, except my sister—my brother-in-law—my brother and sister-in-law, and, uh, Bettye [Jean Aulin Reagan] has, um—her child is out here now, but I don’t know any of the past, uh—I—that’s why I said when I was looking in that, uh, yearbook, I don’t know that there’d be anybody anymore, and as old as I am, um, I’m—I guess I’m one of—of, uh, the older ones that would be, uh…
Dossie
Mmhmm.
Bunch
Out here nowadays.Knowing how—I know people go to their 90s and that, but I still—they can’t, uh—back in my day, I don’t—I don’t know if there’s anybody that much more out here that I would’ve known, unless I was kin to ‘em, and I don’t have anybody out here now. So—but things have sure changed, and I do see there are, uh, in the b—block that we called[?] goin’ around Oviedo, uh, some of those houses, when we’ve gone, are still there. That—which is odd. Very—they’ve been there quite a while. Like I said, where my daddy was born,[19] uh, it’s still there these days, but it doesn’t look anything like it—I mean, they changed it all around—backyard and everything.
Dossie
Mmhmm.
Bunch
But I don’t have that much to contribute [laughs] to Oviedo. That’s for sure.
Dossie
Oh, you definitely…
Bunch
And, um…
Dossie
Told us some great…
Bunch
Yeah.
Dossie
Information today.
Bunch
Yeah, so I think that’s enough.
Dossie
Well, we’re going to bring the interview to a close. I wanna thank you so much…
Bunch
Thank you.
Dossie
For being interviewed, and I really appreciate you coming out here and doing [inaudible] did.
Bunch
Okay [laughs].
[1] Andrew Aulin, Jr.
[2] Mary Leonora Aulin Bartlett.
[3] Richard Burdette Bunch.
[4] Mary Bunch.
[5] Mary Kathryn Bunch Hamby and Billy Beatrice Bunch Parrot.
[6] Martha Lenora Aulin Wheeler.
[7] Andrew Aulin, Sr.
[8] Correction: Andew Aulin, Sr. was born in Sweden.
[9] Baptist Young Peoples Union.
[10] Naval Training Center (NTC) Orlando.
[11] Mary Lenora Aulin Bartlett and Bettye Jean Aulin Reagan.
[12] Charles Warren Aulin and Andrew Aulin, Jr.
[13] Mary Alice Powell Aulin.
[14] Andrew Aulin, Jr.
[15] United Service Organizations.
[16] Charles Warren Aulin.
[17] Andrew Aulin, Jr.
[18] Julia Nadine Davis Aulin.
[19] May 20, 1893.
Baldwin
Okay, where and, uh—where and when were you born? The address and year, please.
Pottinger
I was born in 1947 in August, but I will tell you this: that I am not a native-born Orlandoan, though my family has been here for many, many, many years. I was born on the British Bay Islands off of Honduras, which, uh, were, uh, for many years a British possession, and, uh—and where my mother’s family, the Kirk-Connells, are from. So in any event though, my family, uh, originally—my, uh, parents, uh—my—my dad’s family came to Orlando and brought him to recover from the great influenza [pandemic] of 1917[1] that killed hundreds of thousands of Americans and a million people around the world. He was a, uh, cadet training at the University of Kentucky, and many of ‘em got it. They were able to, uh, come from their home in Kentucky down here and spent the winter, and nursed him back to health. He went back, graduated from UK in ’23, and by ’26 he was back here as a full time resident. So that’s how we got here. Uh, my mother’s family a little the same. they maintained a home in Tampa. Uh, My grandfather—her father—was, uh, a sailing ship captain, and, uh, came back and forth to Tampa Harbor, and, uh, she was born in the Bay I—British Bay Islands, Honduras, and, uh—which are a neat little thing, if you look at a map. They’re only three major islands of it and a bunch of little keys, but Honduras is the only country in Central America that faces north, and that’s where, eh, we’re all related with the same families in the Cayman Islands. So a—anyway, the indigenous to the Caribbean [Sea], uh—that’s how I got here.
Baldwin
Hm, very interesting. So how old were you exactly when you moved to Orlando?
Pottinger
I was just a—a baby. yeah.
Baldwin
Okay.
Pottinger
Mmhmm.
Baldwin
So what would you say was your favorite part about growing up in Orlando?
Pottinger
I think the neighborhoods of Orlando and then the friendships that we had in a small town. Uh, a wonderful place to grow up. Uh, you—particularly among the families that had been here a long time, uh, you knew each other across town. I mean, when I was, uh, young dating and what, uh, I went to Edgewater High School, but I dated girls from Boone High School, and in the afternoon, the little motor scooters—or later, the cars—would cross the boys from Boone going to Edgewater, ‘cause, of course, they were prettier girls, and the boys from Edgewater going to Boone, because they were beautiful girls. So that’s kind of the way, uh, we all grew up. we knew each other. Uh, it was a relatively small town, and, uh, that changed—the first change of that was Martin Marietta [Corporation] moving here from Baltimore[, Maryland], and, uh, bringing eight thousand families. Uh, I think I’m right on that figure, but, uh, eh, the—the—the life and breath of Orlando, uh, breathed around their ups and downs at Martin Marietta, uh, when, you know, armaments and so forth—missiles and such—were big. Things were booming and when they laid off three thousand people, Orlando was in dire straits.
Baldwin
So like, what time of year—what year…
Pottinger
That would have been the late ‘50s.
Baldwin
Okay[?].
Pottinger
Yeah, that was all dairy land. All dairy.
Baldwin
Very interesting. Um, how and why did you become involved with Orlando Remembered?
Pottinger
I’ve always been a historian. Uh, I—I know it. With contemporaries of mine, it—it probably bored them to death, uh, but I was, uh, uh, a language person, and—and I was a history person. I wound up being a banker, but mathematics was never my long suit. I just, uh—people were—and—and that provided well for me in life. So, uh, that’s, you know—that’s kind of the reason I be—got involved. People asked me to come to get involved with Orlando Remembered, and it was my pleasure and has been all these years.
Baldwin
Very interesting. So you were not one of the founding members of…
Pottinger
No, I was not, uh, because, at that particular time, I was spending a little time out of here, and, uh, uh, the—the origin of it started at, uh, the Beacham Theatre. That’s where the first meeting—and I could not be there that particular time. Uh, We had a, uh, place in North Carolina, and, uh, like so many Floridians that grew up in the days before air conditioning, if you had 50 cents to clink together in your pocket, you either rented or you owned a place, as we did in Islands[?], North Carolina, or somewhere up that around Asheville—western North Carolina. Anyway, I was not here for that. So—but I soon right[?].
Baldwin
So you’d been there almost the entire time.
Pottinger
Almost the entire time.
Baldwin
You just missed the first meeting?
Pottinger
Just wasn’t at the very first meeting, which I consider were the founders. I knew every one of them, um, there—there were some wonderful—The Serroses, the Pajo[sp], Vandenburg[sp]—Pajo[sp] Pounds, we all knew her as. So forth and so on. A lot of them that were very active in that time. Grace Chewning[sp], um…
Baldwin
Are a lot of the founding members still…
Pottinger
There are still a number of them, surprisingly enough, still—still around. Uh, Andy Serros is, uh—that I mentioned earlier—and his brother, Bob [Serros], is[—is active, but, uh, Andy passed away a few years ago and he was one of the original founders, and there was, uh—there were a couple of others that have passed away.
Baldwin
What is the overall goal of Orlando Remembered?
Pottinger
To preserve, uh, the memory of areas and locations, and landmarks in the city, and, uh, we’ve—we’ve done that in several ways, but, uh, I think one of the—the best ways is the, uh—the location of displays in various spots around Downtown Orlando, and a couple outside of downtown, uh, with memorabilia, uh, of that area, and, uh, You know, at some point in time, I’d love to take you on a walking tour and—and show you some of those things. Just to stroll down, uh, Orange Avenue, and you can see the way it looked in the—sometimes as far back there’ll be something there from the 1890s, from one of the hotels—from the hotel that my grandparents stayed in, when they came that year in 1918—at the Wyoming Hotel. Uh, there’s a set of china and—and some se—tableware that I believe are in the display at the Orange County Courthouse. Uh, go in the courthouse—for any of you that might want to make that tour and see—walk in the front, leave your holstered items in the car, because you’re going to go through the, uh—the, uh, security thing there, but go over to the left and you’ll see it, uh, in the lobby there. You’ll see a great one. Uh, it tells all about what’s happened on that street and that block and that area around there. It, uh, uh, had the Wyoming Hotel on it, which was only a winter hotel, as many in Florida were. It closed in the summer, like Park Avenue did.
Uh, my in-laws had a, uh, store on Park Avenue for over 40 years, and they were one of the very few that stayed open year-round. Uh, Most of ‘em were—would head back in the cooler—warmer months of Florida. They’d go to cooler locations, uh, whether the hotels or the shops, like there—not—that wasn’t so in Orlando, necessarily. it was a year round, but in those winter destinations like that and such, they’d go, uh, up to Algonquin, you know, up to Maine, up to, uh, uh, Vermont—wherever they might be, and, uh, open a shop up there for the summer months and come back. So our whole, uh, life around here was really dependent on those northerners coming down, and, uh, in the early days, before Martin Marietta and such, in the winter time, we had not only the casual tourists who came down, because—to try and get away for a week or two—we had those that came down, as later my grandparents did, after enjoying it so much and—and many others, and spent time down here.
Some of them spent the winter, some—excuse me—spent six months, but we also had the, uh, we were the winter, uh, trotting horse capital of the United States, and it brought a lot of revenue in. Uh, it was at—held out at Ben White [Raceway], which was a raceway that was at the corner of about what’s Lee Road and—and [U.S. Route] 441. Uh, It’s now a big athletic fields, and there’s some stables, I think, still in the back, but it was a huge, uh, money infusion in the winter. Those people came—the owners of those—that was—it was always considered a, uh, uh, society kick above, uh, horse racing. Uh, the trotters and pacers were brought down, and, uh, they stabled them here, and, uh—the races. It—it—you knew when—you knew when Ben White opened, because traffic picked up. Now that would sound ridiculous with today’s horrible traffic in Orlando…
Baldwin
[laughs].
Pottinger
But back then there weren’t that many cars on the road and—and, uh, man, you’d see these automobiles come into town and up on the hood was a, uh—a metal, stainless, pretty thing of a, uh, trotting horse and a—and a sulky[?] behind it, You know? You knew they were involved in that. Eh, It just, uh—one of the things that—that, you know, came across that kept our town going before Martin Marietta and before [Walt] Disney [World Resort] and such.
Baldwin
Mentioning the horses, do you have an exhibit that features that aspect yet?
Pottinger
You know…
Baldwin
Aspect yet?
Pottinger
We—we have some pictures of it in one or two, but we don’t have anything, because there’s no facility out there left at Ben White to put it in. We would do that, because there—there—there’s enough, probably, memorabilia from those days, but what we try to do is locate what was on those various blocks. Maybe not just a block, maybe an area, in other words.
We’ve—in some cases, we’ve helped spon—helped sponsor a plaque, uh, like for the air base that was in town. Where Herndon Airport[2] is today. It was the Orlando [Army] Air Base before it was the Navy base.[3] So, uh, you know, there are—there are—newcomers, or what maybe consider themselves long time Orlandoans—that remember a Navy base out there, but I remember when it was the Orlando Air Base, and—and we had another air base that opened, uh—was Pine Castle Air Base, and, uh, that’s, uh, now the Orlando International Airport. The runways were there for the big bombers and it was a SAC base—a Strategic Air Command, and again, both of those things brought in a great deal of money when they came here.
Uh, the—the closing of Orlando Air Base was going to be a pretty big blow, and at that time, the owner and publisher of The Orlando Sentinel was a man name Martin Andersen—always with an “EN” at the end. Never—you could always tell somebody new to town when they write it as “Anderson,” but Martin Andersen was a Texas boy who knew LBJ,[4] and, uh, Johnson was president and, uh, he persevered on it and got a branch of the Great Lakes Naval Training Center to be established on the base, on part of what had been, uh, the—the air base, and, uh, it—it brought in not just recruits. It brought in families. It brought officers, enlisted men. It brought a whole lot of payroll coming in here. It was wonderful. Ah, uh, again, another mile stone that came along through connections or coincidence—whatever it might be. Uh, the same thing with the—the air base out here. Uh, it was going to close and MacDill [Air Force Base] in Tampa was going to take over as the air base for Florida—the major one, and, uh, the facilities were there for many years. The terminal was a big, uh, round-top hangar that had been used by the, uh—by the, uh, Air Force itself, and there was a lot of housing out there. There’s still some housing, uh, in—in that area out there, but, uh, there—There’s a, uh, Naval exchange, uh, where, you know, those that are qualified can—retirees and so forth—can go shop and so forth. Uh, a lot of other services were—were left in place and the city has had good use out of it.
Baldwin
Good, good. How does the group decide which sites to commemorate with exhibits?
Pottinger
Well, usually, it’s sponsored. Someone, uh, finds someone, uh, you know, that—that owns a building in that location, uh, and we—sometimes the building owner contributes financially to building—the displays are not cheap to put together, and, uh, you know, they’re—they’re—they’re housed—they’re lighted many of them and so forth, but, uh, it also takes someone who—who might have worked in that building or—or owned a building there and, uh, they have memorabilia, and, boy, we seize on it when we do, and, uh, they’re—they’re scattered throughout mostly in the downtown area. Uh, I mentioned the courthouse. The big Bank of America tower has one that we’re redoing in there now —I dedicated that when I was president of Orlando Remembered. Uh, I did a number of the—of the dedications of those, e—e—either when I was involved as—as one of the officers or not, but, uh, we have one in what was the Rutland building and that was a well-known building. That’s the corner of, uh—of Jefferson [Street] and—no, no—Jack—excuse me, uh—I believe it is on Orange Avenue at the corner of Washington [Street] —Washington and Orange. Uh, A building that once housed the most prestigious, uh, men’s store and lady’s store in downtown, when they were private companies, not big, you know, uh, uh, department stores—nation chain—national chains and such. Uh, We have another one in the SunTrust [Center] tower downtown that we’ve had there in the, uh—what was originally the CNA Building, but where the Citrus Club is, and that name has changed a number of times on that building.
So—but, uh, they’re—they’re throughout there. They, uh—and again, usually it’s—it’s because someone has a real interest in it or a financial interest in getting one of those, uh, displays in there. Uh, eh, It’s, uh—it’s a job to maintain them. They need periodic cleaning and dusting. The city has—has helped us with one. There’s one at the, uh, Bob Carr [Theater] auditorium, uh, that shows—that used to be the Orlando Municipal Auditorium. It was the auditorium and it wasn’t as big as it is today. If you go inside and you really look, you’ll see the old front is 20 feet back from the front now, uh, and it’s where people gather outside and so forth, but it’s air conditioned and then—so forth. It’s—it’s an anti-room to the—to the auditorium itself. We’re hoping that—that it’ll stay that way. There’s talk of tearing it down, and it’s a treasure that, uh, those of us that—that love Orlando, uh, would hate to see come down, and, uh, it—it—it’s a memory. I mean, we went to, uh, plays, you know, eh, when we were in junior—I mean in the grade school—went there. Uh, the Junior League used to put a play on every year there, and all the school children in Orlando got to take turns going down to see it in busses and so forth. I remember that as a—a child. It—it was great.
Baldwin
So you mentioned the exhibits are usually started by somebody who’s interested. Eh, like—I’m sure a lot of people are interested in creating different exhibits. How do you decide which exhibit’s going to be created by that person?
Pottinger
Well, we can only do one at a time, because we’re—we’re—we have no continuous funding basis. So a lot of times, it also depends on the owner of a building. who’s going to, first place, give us the space and the electricity and so forth, and might want one of those in there to draw, uh, attention to their own building or, you know, it’s a lot cheaper than buying a, uh, painting to put on the wall, probably, for ‘em, over the long run, uh, and It—it gives—it’s on tours many times. Uh, I’ve done those tours and taken people, you know, and I think the, uh—the museums now has[sic] a tour basis. I’m pretty sure that includes that, and—and their brochures that—that you can get, you—today you go online and you can find out where they all are and it’s even a map, I think, in there to—to follow through.
Baldwin
How does Orlando Remembered pay for the exhibits?
Pottinge
With contributions from its members, uh, from, uh, the owners of the building. Uh, most of the material that goes in there—in fact, t—to all of it, it is given to us. It’s donated to that particular, uh, point to—to some—someone that may have worked in—the one, you know, where there was a department store. Uh, hey may have the old nametag out of the back of a sweater or something. Uh, you know, to one that had a, uh, restaurant in it, there’s some china from that Wyoming Hotel, I tell you about, and some, uh, other things. So the materials that go into it, we don’t pay for. We just need the—the cabinetry and so forth—is—is all custom done and it’s done attractively. So it’s thousands of dollars to do it, and, uh, uh, uh, I’m talking, you know, uh, uh, five figure in thousands. So, eh, you know, it’s—it’s, uh, not something that you just decide because you have some china that you’ll put it in there. You need—you need a, uh, sugar daddy that’s—that’s there to contribute.
Baldwin
Roughly how many members of Orlando Remembered are there?
Pottinger
I can’t tell you that. I really don’t know. I’m—I’m a, uh, you know—I—I just—I can’t recall a—a recent number.
Baldwin
Okay. In your opinion, what’s your favorite Orlando Remembered exhibit?
Pottinger
Well, I love the one in the courthouse, as I said. Uh, There’s, uh—there are several of them downtown that, uh—that the, uh, one at the Municipal Auditorium—that’s another one that I like. The one that was in the Rutland building, and at, uh, one time, I’m not sure we still have the one that was at the, uh, back of Central Avenue-side of, uh, the northeast corner—southeast corner of Central and Orange, which was originally Yowell’s[?] and became Yowell’s[?] -Ivy’s Department Store. Uh, it’s an office building now, and who knows what’s in the downtown—downstairs. It rotates constantly, but, uh, that was a good one. SunTrust has an[sic], uh, good one.
Some of ‘em, you know, we’ve had to track down, because all of sudden somebody goes by and looks, and it’s gone. Someone has, you know—the manager of the building has decided to put it in a storage room, hopefully. Uh, we’ve—we’ve lost a couple of ‘em that, uh, you know, uh—the materials We’ve had to buy back a janitor or custodian—whatever it would be—keeper of ‘em—at, uh, one of those corners at Central and Orange—took a lot of it home and we had to repurchase things, because it had been given to us, and, uh, you know, you—you just—it can happen in a moment, and—and it can, you know—I mean, we are not a—a business that goes by and checks it every week. So, you know, months can go by and one of our members doesn’t notice it, and no one calls us and says, “You know, there was a display in, eh, the lobby, but it’s not there anymore.” Well, I don’t know that we—we don’t really have a—an office phone number to call.
So, uh, we—we’ve been through all of that with it, but, you know, determination and a love for the city and to continue its history has kept us going, and we continue to provide these. So we’ll—it costs money to maintain them. Again, as I think I mentioned earlier, they have to be cleaned. They have to be opened. they’re sealed. It has to be a, uh—it’s not a, uh—take a—a rag down there and—and clean the outside. You gotta clean the inside, you gotta clean the displays, gotta clean the linings, and so forth. So it—it takes—it takes upkeep and it takes, uh, continuous maintenance.
Baldwin
Who’s responsible for…
Pottinger
Well, the…
Baldwin
Cleaning and everything?
Pottinger
We’ve—get someone to do it—a professional to do it, and again, that’as part of—of maintaining these. Uh, we—we don’t have any huge balance, so we have to do it as we can.
Baldwin
What are your personal goals for Orlando Remembered in the future?
Pottinger
I’d like to see it continued on and on, and, uh, the, eh, eh, you know—for those of us that are, as I am, near 70, uh—and—and we’ve got members that are, you know, 85 years old, and so, uh, uh, you know—but we’ve got members coming along that have lived here 35 years, 50 years, 60 years. There’ll be things that they remember that have changed dramatically in Orlando that—and there’s space to make, uh—to put a display up, uh, and—and I think that, uh, they’ll be active in that. Uh, we’ve tried to get some other organizations, and then[?]—I won’t mention the name, but, uh, there’s one that’s a lot of young ladies your age—under 40, I think—and you go inactive[?] or something, if I remember right.
My wife and daughters were—daughter was in that, but, in any—in Junior League—and, eh, you know, we may indeed get them interested. So there are things like that, that, uh—that—that will be of interest to someone later, and the displays that we did will be of no more interest, uh, in many cases. Some we hope, but once you lose the generation that remembers what was in that building, it becomes something for the history museum, not something for an active mind to draw you back to your own personal memories of it, and, therefore, you need to continue on, and, o’ course, downtown now, you’ll have to have a great memory of which nightclubs were where…
Baldwin
[laughs].
Pottinger
‘Cause that’s about all there is in those buildings downtown anymore. So—but, uh, you know, there—there are spots for it everywhere.
Baldwin
Has Orlando Remembered had—had a lot of success at attracting younger generations and everything?
Pottinger
Uh, I think we’ve—we’ve done alright. We’ve got a good, uh, variance of age groups. Uh, we’d like to have more younger people. We’d love to have people your age. We’d love to have people from the university, and, as you are doing, take an interest. We welcome you. There are no dues to come, uh, help us. We’d love to have it.
Baldwin
How does Orlando Remembered interact with the community?
Pottinger
Well, we try to do it with these displays and—and by keeping them alive. A little bit of writing the newspaper has done well with us, and we’ve been able to, uh, get some good publicity when we open these, and, uh, once in a while, we do an interview, like this one is—is being done, and we have others. We’ve—I’ve[?] done a TV interview and a—a show. So, I mean, it’s—it’s, uh, eh—I’ve also gone around to schools and some of—not specifically to talk about Orlando Remembered—but I try to bring out when I talk about history to them, the, you know—go see the displays that are—that are available, and, uh, it—it’ll—it’ll—and take your parents with you, because they’ll remember a lot of those things that are in there.
Baldwin
What was the connection between Orlando Remembered and the Historical Society of Central Florida/the Orange County Regional History Center?
Pottinger
Not really anything in the—in the years other than cross membership. Uh, it’s two separate accounts and, uh, two separate organizations. I was also president of the Orange County [Historical] Museum[5] and the historical society—Orange County Historical Society, before it moved downtown, when—the last year that it was at Loch Haven [Park], in what is—I’m trying to think what’s there in that theater thing now—but anyway, um, it—it was there for many—it was originally in an old, red brick courthouse when I was a little boy. That’s where that park in front of the historical museum is. Uh, in the front was an 18, uh, 88- or 1892- courthouse, and it was the—the 1927 courthouse where the museum—museum is today—was there and active as the courthouse. This red brick building was start—had the—the museum in it, that was all volunteer, run by the Antiquarian Society, which was a group of prominent family ladies who gathered memorabilia and—and volunteered hours up there, and, uh, it was relatively small, but it was the beginning of the history center. Some of those volunteers’ children or grandchildren had been active in the historical society and in Orlando Remembered.
Baldwin
Which organization were you president of first?
Pottinger
Uh, the museum, I think, uh, eh, eh, if my memory serves, but I think—yes, I’m certain of it. Uh, again, age hits you
Baldwin
[laughs].
Pottinger
You try to remember which one was which, but I—I was president of the historical society and the museum, uh, and I think that was 1999 or 2000 [inaudible]—something like that—and, uh, after—following that—that I really got active in—in Orlando Remembered. I had been a little bit active, but I’ve given you another line—something else to do. You know, when you get finished being the president of an organization, the greatest thing you can do is to step aside and let the new people have it, and don’t hang around from it.
Baldwin
Sometimes that’s the hardest thing though.
Pottinger
It is hard. It is hard, but, uh, in any event, uh, it—it—it was a good break and I’ve—I’ve enjoyed it. Both of ‘em.
Baldwin
How does—how does one become involved with Orlando Remembered?
Pottinger
Oh, our meetings, and—and, uh, I can give you an address—you may have it—for Grace, uh, and she is, uh—she is our recording secretary and a great person, and you do have that, uh—that address—e-mail. Uh, she can put you on a mailing list. We’d love to have—and if there are other students that would like to come sit [inaudible]—to some, it may be very boring, you know, and—and we talk about the same thing—about trying to get a display. I don’t know how long we’ve gone on trying to put together getting a display on the Navy base of some[6]—what would I call a Navy base—but out at Baldwin Park. Not just a little sign, but a—a real display of what used to be there— the glass-cased display. It’s gonna happen one of these days, but gosh, you know, even somebody that’s a member gets tired of hearing, “Well, we’ve made no progress on the,” you know, this and that, and the next thing over and over, but we—we—right now, there’s a lot of, uh—a lot of our displays are[sic]—have[sic] hit the age and stage of maintenance, and so, that’s been our—our push this last year, rather than new ones, but we’ll continue on, and perhaps we’ll go beyond just Orlando. You know, Winter Park area has others and, uh, you know, a, uh—a couple of the—the fine families out in West Orange County have done a great job in Winter Garden. Uh, they’ve—they’ve really done a super job. If you’ve not been to Downtown Winter Garden, don’t miss it. It is as pretty, if not more beautiful, than Park Avenue in Winter Park. It’s, uh, uh—it’s two streets with a park—little park down the middle, and some great restaurants. Good place just to go out and sip one in the evening or to eat lunch or something.
Baldwin
I was actually just there last week for their [Central Florida] Railroad Museum.
Pottinger
Oh, wonderful.
Baldwin
So that’s a very…
Pottinger
That’s great.
Baldwin
It’s the first time I’ve ever been Downtown Winter Garden.
Pottinger
Isn’t it…
Baldwin
It’s so pretty.
Pottinger
A cute little town?
Baldwin
Mmhmm.
Pottinger
It really is, and—and it was dilapidated—is not the word for it—15 years ago. I mean it—but again, several families, uh, have, uh, the Chicones and a few others have put together some—some wonderful things out there. Uh, Again, I urge you to go out there.
Baldwin
So I know you mentioned that like, downtown’s all just nightclubs and stuff and Orlando Remembered does exhibits. Would Orlando Remembered ever try to preserve an entire building, you think? or is that too far out of the question?
Pottinger
No, I think it’s too far beyond what—what, uh—again, we have no source of—of continuous income. So it—it wouldn’t, uh—unless someone donated a building to us, and, uh, you know, it’d be wonderful, and, uh, you know, you could do vignettes on, uh, you know—throughout the building, or—or a home, you know, that showed various spots. That might even be safer than the way we do it where we’re putting our display—an expensive display in the lobby of a building. Again, without constant control, we don’t know when it winds up at the janitor’s garage at home. So, you know, you—you just need a continuous thing, and, you know, we have no employees. It’s not—it’s just volunteer. All of it.
Baldwin
How do you believe Orlando Remembered will change in the future?
Pottinger
Well, I know there’ll be changes to it, but I think some of ‘mem will be good, because I, eh—just like this right now, I see more interest in young people with history, uh, you know, than—than there were—was in my day growing up. It—it—there was very little interest in—in, uh—I was—I was a rarity to be a young lad, and, uh, uh, I don’t know of another soul…
Hill
Today is March 6th, 2014. I’m interviewing Mike Partain, who served in the United States Navy. My name is Amanda Hill, and with me is [Carolyn] “Carli” Van Zandt running the camera. We are interviewing today Mr. [laughs] Mike Partain, as part of UCF [University of Central Florida] Community Veterans History Project and as research for the creation of the Lone Sailor Memorial Project. We are recording this interview at Mike’s home in Orlando, Florida.
Hill
Mr. Partain, will you please start off by telling us, uh, where and when you were born?
Partain
I was born at, uh, Camp Lejeune Marine Corps Base in North Carolina in January of 1968.
Hill
So your parents were in the service?
Partain
And[?] my father was a [United States] Naval Academy graduate and a Marine Officer.
Hill
In North Carolina?
Partain
Uh, yeah, he served in the Marine Corps, uh, in North Carolina.
Hill
And so what did your mom do for a living?
Partain
Uh, my mother was a housewife. Uh, she’s a French Canadian from the providence of Quebec[, Canada], and they met when he was, uh, in the training crews at the Naval Academy.
Hill
Do you have any brothers or sisters?
Partain
I have one sister, uh, born in Bethesda Naval Hospital[1] in 1970.
Hill
And growing up, where did you go to school?
Partain
Uh, well, after my father, uh, resigned his commission from the Marine Corps, we moved to, uh, Central Florida—Polk County.
Hill
How old were you when he resigned?
Partain
Uh, four years old.
Hill
So you moved here pretty early?
Partain
Yeah, I’ve been here pretty much all my life. This is—this is home. Uh, Camp Lejeune’s pretty much just a name on a birth certificate.
Hill
Were your par—were your—was your father involved in the Navy—the Navy at all when he moved here?
Partain
No, no. He was out of the service by then.
Hill
Okay. So what did you do before you entered the Navy?
Partain
Um, I was a college student. Uh, went to Florida State University for my first year of college and, um, didn’t do too well my first year, and when my father got my report card, uh, he informed me that I was on my own.
Hill
[laughs] Okay.
Partain
That’s why I joined the Navy.
Hill
So that’s why you joined the Navy.
Partain
Yeah.
Hill
Alright. So how old were you at that time?
Partain
Uh, I was 19.
Hill
19. So why the Navy? What…
Partain
Well, the—we’re a military family. My grandfather had, uh, served in the Marine Corps. Um, my father was in the Naval Academy and graduated 1966, and, uh, served in the Marine Corps of his commission. So going to the Navy was an opportunity. I, uh, saw a lot of different opportunities I can do in the Navy—pay for my education. That was my main thing was to get my college paid for, since, uh, I didn’t do too well my first year.
Hill
What were you looking to study?
Partain
Um, actually, I went in to the Tampa MET [Military Entrance Test] center[2] for the, um, [clears throat]—for testing and did the ASVAB [Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery] test—scored very well—and they pulled me aside and asked me if I would take the nuc—nuclear test for Nuclear Propulsion School in the Navy, which I did and scored, uh, very high on that. High enough that the commanding officer of the MET center came to me and asked if I would sign an enlistment contract right away, and I said, “No,” and that I was—that I wanted to think about it first, because I wasn’t totally sure that I wanted to go into the military, and I made the mistake of mentioning my father being, uh—was a Naval Academy graduate, and he ended up calling my father, and, uh, the two of them got together, uh, and I didn’t have a chance. I ended up signing my enlistment contract about an hour later.
Hill
Wow, so pretty easy decision?
Partain
Uh, yeah, it was. I mean I delayed my enlistment. This was in April 1987, when I was still, um—actually, uh, I had just got home from college and, um, I delayed my enlistment until January of 1988.
Hill
Why delay?
Partain
Just wanted to go in the winter months. I—I don’t like the summer. So I didn’t want to run around in the summer and do PT [physical training] in the summertime.
Hill
Makes sense.
Partain
[coughs].
Hill
So where did you attend boot camp?
Partain
Well, I joined the Navy to go see the world, and I ended up travelling about 45 miles north of where I lived and grew up in Orlando, Florida, at the Orlando Naval Training Center.
Hill
[laughs] Right. Were you, uh, looking to be trained then in a specific career at that point or were they looking to train you in a specific career?
Partain
Yeah, I was accepted into the Nuclear Propulsion School for the Navy, and I had to complete my basic training and then A School after that, which were both, at that time—both housed at the Orlando Naval Training Center, uh, here in Orlando.
Hill
Can you tell me more about the nuclear propulsion?
Partain
Well, um, I didn’t get that far. Um, uh, basically, from my understanding with the school, once I completed, uh, basic, I was gonna go into A School at the Nu—uh, Nuclear Propulsion School, and—which, um, I—if I completed that, I did a six-year hitch as part of the contract, and if I completed the school, then I would have gone into the fleet as an E[nlisted Rank]-3, which would have been Petty Officer [sniffs].
Hill
Okay. So that specific school—what are they—what do they do?
Partain
Uh, they train the engineers to run the, uh, nuclear propulsion systems for the Navy’s aircraft carriers, uh, and sub—uh, submarines that are nuclear-powered, and it’s a promising career path. It opens up a lot of doors. It was very tough. Academically, it was a very stringent program. If you failed, uh, out of the program, then you went into the fleet and served the rest of your hitch [sniffs].
Hill
What—what were you hoping to do with that?
Partain
Um, it was going to be a skill for me. Um, Open the doors, uh, to—you know, to have a trade and, uh, also go to college. Uh, my plan was to finish college, once I graduated—uh, once I completed my hitch in the Navy, and then take the expertise I had learned in the Navy, along with a—hopefully, a degree in nuclear engineering, uh, and go work in a private industry.
Hill
Okay. So then—so you began your training at NTC [Naval Training Center Orlando] in January of 1988?
Partain
Yes.
Hill
Correct? Okay. So you were pretty familiar then with the region, right? [inaudible].
Partain
As far as Florida? Yes.
Hill
Yes, um, [laughs] so were you…
Partain
I joined the Navy and see world, and go right into my own back yard. So…
Hill
Right. Were you familiar with the Navy’s presence in Orlando already?
Partain
Yes, I mean, I—growing up here, you know, the—growing up in Florida, especially, uh, at my age, and when the—the telltale signs of World War II are still all over Florida. Uh, Most of your airports are former Army or Navy Train—, uh, naval, um—Sorry. Most of your airports are former Army or naval training centers for the pilots during World War II, like Sebring [Regional Airport]. Even McCoy [Air Force Base] airfield, which is now the [Orlando] International Airport, was a training field, uh, during World War II. So, you know, there’s always been a military presence in Florida.
Hill
How—do you remember how you found out about that presence?
Partain
As far as—I mean, growing up, I mean, you see the bases. Um, you got NASJAX [Naval Air Station Jacksonville] up in Orlando.[3] You got [Naval Station] Mayport—I mean, sorry—NASJAX up in Jacksonville, and you got Mayport. You got Patrick Air Force Base, McCoy Air—I mean, uh, MacDill Air Force Base in Tampa.
Um, as a child growing up, um, the flight path for the Air Force, uh, fighters, to do practice bombing over in, um, Avon Park Bomber Range,[4] went over our house. After—every afternoon, we’d see [General Dynamics] F-16s [Fighting Falconfly] fly over and practice in Avon Park, and they’d come back, and sometimes they’d fly low, and, you know, you’d always see the military around growing up here.
Hill
Why do you think the Navy chose to locate a recruit training center in Central Florida?
Partain
Um, no idea, to be honest with you [laughs]. Um, I know during, uh—when a lot of military bases were here in Florida, or located here in Florida, because of the climate here allowed training year round, especially with the flying conditions. So—but as far as the Navy’s base in Orlando and the training center, um, I have no idea why they, uh, located it here.
Hill
That’s fair. Uh, so how long were you at NTC Orlando?
Partain
Well, um, I arrived in January, uh,—I think it was January 2nd, 1988, and I went through the first part of basic training. I made it through about four weeks—almost my fifth week—into, uh, training at, uh, NTC Orlando, And I broke out in a rash. Um, One of the curious things is it was a rash that I was born with at Camp Lejeune. Um, and periodically through my life, whenever—like if I wore dry-cleaning clothes, or, thing—you know, was around chemicals and stuff, I’d break out. Well, I broke out in this rash, and they couldn’t figure out why or where it was coming from. Uh, because normally, I could control it, um, and it just didn’t want to go away.
So the Drill Instructor, [clears throat] um, sent me down to the infirmary—the—the naval hospital, and they held me there for, uh, about a week or so, and tried to figure out what was wrong. They finally came up and said that, uh, I was, uh—because of the rash, that I was going to be disqualified for my program…
Hill
Mmm.
Partain
Uh, in the Nuclear Power School.
Hill
Did they know what it was at that point?
Partain
No, uh, they just called it an “atopic dermatitis.” Uh, and they informed me that it made in ineligible to go to the Nuclear Power School. So I ended up, uh—they asked me if I wanted to stay in the fleet, but that meant chipping paint for the six years I was gonna be in the Navy. So I asked them to go ahead and send me home and, uh, end my enlistment at that point, which they, uh, gave me my uniform. I went home as an E3, so I dressed up in my Navy blues, and got my sea bag, and, uh, they sent me home, but, uh, [clears throat] the, um, wha—during that time that they told me I was going home to the time I went home, they put me in what they called a “medical hold company,” where it was—I was taken out of my training regimen, and then put into a, uh, barrack, where other people who had been medically disqualified—they kind of let us sit there for a while. It was about two weeks before they told me, uh, that I had my orders to go home, and that—that’s another—I’ll tell you about that later.
Hill
So what was it like when you found out that you had to leave the Navy?
Partain
Well, um, I mean, the—the, uh—it was a disappointment, because I really had looked forward into getting into the career. Um, I had volunteered to do submarine duty, which was an extra pay, and, um, you know, to me, this was going to be my livelihood. Something—a school and trade that I could pick up and, uh, um, learn, and spend—you know, be able to make a career for the rest of my life with. So I was kind of left with the, um, uh—you know, I ended up coming home, and having to refigure my life and what I was going to do, and I ended up, uh—actually I ended up going to work for [Walt] Disney World after that, and I worked at Disney World for three years while I put myself through college [clears throat].
Hill
So let’s back up a bit…
Partain
Mmhmm.
Hill
To when you first got to the—the base. Um, what were your first impressions?
Partain
Well, um, you know, it’s intimidating. I mean, you’re coming off civilian life, even though I grew up in a military—military family. Um, nothing prepares you for the shock of going into the world of, uh, you know—of—of the military. It’s a totally different experience.
Um, the first shock is your lose your individuality. Uh, and that was, uh—that was the hardest thing for me to get used to—is the fact that you had to assimilate yourself into their world and their program, and, um, you know, you lost the—the “me” part of yourself, for at least awhile.
Hill
Can you tell me more about that? What specifically caused those changes?
Partain
[clears throat] Well, I mean, the first thing they do—they bring you in and you line up. Um, you know, they issue you a uniform, um, and it’s an assembly line. You’re given, uh, you know, your boots, eh, and all your gear, and you have to stencil your name on the gear and, uh—and your sea bag, and, um, and then they, uh, shave all your hair off. Uh, they, uh, you know—just going through that is, eh—it’s more—like I said, it’s an assembly line type of impersonal, um—uh, the impersonal, um, process, because, I mean, you’re—you’re moved from one place to another and, you know, you gotta, uh—eh, you just get to feel like you’re a cow sometimes, um, and, uh the other, you know—the other thing is the—as you go in and you’re all wearing the same clothes, you all look the same.
So everybody is the same, and that’s what I mean by “lose your individuality,” and, uh, then, you know, once you get into the barracks that begins the training process, which one of the first things they start doing is breaking down the individual and starting to form a unit. Because, you know, everybody—when everyone’s acting individually, you know—you have your own routines and stuff like that, and one of the first things [laughs] I remember—I knew this was going to happen, uh, because my dad had warned me, but, uh, everyone settled down for the night, and one of the first memories—and it was funny, because it just totally, uh, unnerved me—was, uh, I think, at about three o’clock in the morning, uh, the, uh—the DI [Drill Instructor] came in and threw the trash can down the barrack hall, making all kinds of rackets and screaming, “Get on the line! Get on the line!” And, um, I remember getting—getting up and, um, getting on the line in front of the barracks, and, you know, we’re in our skivvies and socks, and I’m sitting there shaking, and, um, I’m thinking, you know, What the hell? What the hell have I done? Because I don’t like getting up at three o’clock in the morning.
Hill
[laughs].
Partain
I don’t think anybody really does, especially when someone’s screaming at you and throwing a—a metal trash can down the—down the barrack, uh, hallway, and if you don’t—the—the trash cans being metal, makes a hell of a lot of noise, especially in a barrack on a tile floor. So that was the—that was the first morning of recruit training, and, um, they had a lot of different things in store for us as we, uh, went through this process. So it was—some of it was humorous. Um, I knew the purpose of it, which was, you know, some people—some of the guys didn’t do well with it, but, you know, I kinda laughed with some of the stuff that they were doing.
Hill
So life in the barracks then—if everyone’s the same, how does that affect the group dynamic?
Partain
Well, I mean, you still have people that look out for themselves. That’s the big thing is, when you get people who just don’t—you know, they’re used to taking care of themselves and, um, not—not thinking as a community. Because the whole purpose of the training is to get you thinking beyond yourself, to work as a team, to work together.
Um, like one of the first things that happened, um, when we, you know—we had to march together and they had to form us together and started doing things, of course everyone’s going off in different directions. Um, and I remember one morning, we went out and did PT—running around. and, um, came back, and everything that everybody owned at the barracks, uh, including, uh, the mattresses, the actual bunk racks—everything was heaped up into this massive mountain in the middle of the barracks. and we all walked in and we’re just looking at this. You know, everything we had was in—in the middle of the barracks, and the, of course, the DI comes out screaming at us, you know, uh, “Get this shit together!” You know, “Get this place in order and get it squared up and you’ve got 15 minutes, and, I mean, eh, the—we all looked at each other like, What the hell? So everyone dove[sic] in and people were calling out names and, you know, “I’ve got such and such.” and we’re spreading[?] out trying to get the barracks back up, and of course, we didn’t do it in 15 minutes, which proceeded to have more pushups and things like that that we had to do, because of that. Uh, the—once we get it squared away, it happened again, and, uh, later on, when it happened again, we did get it done in 15 minutes.
Hill
Are there any other examples of training experiences that helped shaped your relationships with other recruits in your class?
Partain
Uh, well, just—I mean, everything that we did. I mean, from the marching, I remember, um—uh, I didn’t—I don’t’ keep my step very well, so I had a hard time learning how to keep in step, and, uh, the guy next to me was trying to show me how to skip to keep back, you know—to get myself back into step. For some reason, I have no rhythm. So I just—I was just constantly out of step, and I would try to march on the outside, um—on the edge of the sidewalk, so that that way I wouldn’t be seen as much, but never failed. I always got called out for that, but one of the other things they had, uh—one morning, we had inspection and they called in all the, uh, company commanders.
The DIs came in and proceeded to rip the place apart, uh, while we’re standing there on the line. and they would come up to each recruit—and it didn’t matter how clean or how great you had your rack—your stuff stowed—there was always something wrong, and in my case, um, uh, I didn’t make my bed very well. Uh, and they ripped my sheet off, and the DI came up to me—I’m six-foot -two—and my DI was—I think he was probably five-foot-eight or—I mean, he would’ve done really well in the submarine. Um, But he came up to me and threw the sheet over my head, and was screaming at me and says, “You can’t make you’re fucking bed!” And he goes, “How old are you recruit?” “Nineteen, sir,” and he goes, “You are Casper the Catch Edge Ghost. You are to go around to each recruit in this command and walk up to them and raise the sheet and go, ‘Boo. I am Casper the Catch Edge Ghost.’ And put your sheet down and go to the next person. Raise your sheet and go, ‘Boo. I’m Casper the Catch Edge Ghost,’” and I had to do that the entire barrack for the, uh—for the company there, which I—you know, you can’t laugh, and I—inside, I’m laughing my ass off, because—I mean, to me, it’s hilarious, but if you laughed, it just makes it a lot worse.
So I proceeded to do that, and, um, you know, they, uh—and to this day, I don’t make my bed [laughs], and it’s for—ever since then, I do not make my bed, but, um, I had to, um—I just, uh, —it’s one of those things that—it stuck with me, I guess, but, uh, stuff like that—I mean, we had, um, you know—people didn’t have their stuff stenciled right, so they to, uh—they made them fix that. Just little things, and going through and—this process: they come in and they work on people and break them down, and then start building back up as a team, and over time, start marching together and you start doing activities, um, and things like that to—to get to work together as a team, and, um—the people who are struggling, you start to see your leaders step up to help them and, you know, get them in line, because the ones that were having problems—then they started getting, you know, pressure put on them, because they weren’t, you know, keeping up. Like, you know, I learned how to march and, you know, thankfully learned how to skip to catch my step and would get myself back in line, but, uh, you know, there are some guys that struggle with that. They didn’t know how to do it or they were intimidated by it, um, and, you know, you start to work together, so that they can’t get you. Meaning—“they” meaning the drill instructors, and, um, that—that was the neat part to see—everyone start to coalesce together and work together.
Hill
When—do you remember a specific moment or a specific activity that you really started to notice that team coalescing?
Partain
Um, I would say the, uh—we had one time, where[sic] we had a head inspection, and, um, no one liked cleaning the bathrooms, and it’s, you know—in the Navy, the head is your bathroom. So we had a head inspection and, um, you know, everyone pretty much—we knew what was going to happen if we didn’t get it clean. So everyone just dropped everything, ran in there, got it cleaned up, cleaned up, picked up. I remember, um, for some reason, I remember doing—clearing behind one of the toilets with a toothbrush—Not—and not one we were using, but one that we had assigned for cleaning and stuff—and trying to get everything out and spic and span, and, um, that was nice to see that, because, at that point, everyone, you know—everyone was working as a team, and, uh, um, the last part of the training was where you saw the—the team-building. Uh, unfortunately, I didn’t make it past, um, my fifth week, so I didn’t get to do some of the other stuff that they did—firefighting together and other things that I didn’t get to—get to participate in.
Hill
Right.
Partain
Um…
Hill
What would you pinpoint as some of those qualities that really helped bring the team together—that transformation?
Partain
Well, I mean, the, uh—the qualities is the—it’s the individual learning that they’re not the center of the universe, and that’s one of the things, uh—basic training in the military is to break down the individuality, to have people understand that, you know, you’re—you’re part of something, and the world doesn’t revolve around you. Uh, some people get it quicker than others. Those that do, do very well in the military. Some never get it, but, uh, that was one thing that, uh—that they, you know—everything was designed to do that. Uh, to do it to break down the civilian and then recast him as a—as person who could think in a military world, because, when it comes down to it, one, you now—in the military world, there is a chain-of-command—a hierarchy—and you are expected to follow orders, and there could be times that something could be going on, and you’re given an order, and, as a civilian, you might question it and be like, Well, I don’t feel like doing that right now, and you can’t do that in the military, because someone may tell you to do something, um, like shut a door and secure the door, because there’s a fire, and if you start arguing with them, then the fire might spread out beyond the compartment and—and jeop—jeopardize the ship and everybody on it. So part of the—that training is to get people to understand, you know, hey, there’s a time, you know—the time to be a civilian is when you’re off duty, but when you’re—when you’re on duty, you have your military bearing, you have—you follow it, and you, you know—you work for the good of the unit.
Hill
When you were off duty, was there ever any sort of social life with…
Partain
Oh, when I was in training…
Hill
Amongst the recruits?
Partain
No, no. There’s no liberty or leave—li—liberties really. There was no liberty, uh, in training. Um, the liberty took place when you graduated from boot camp. Um, so I did not get that experience. Uh, once—once I went into the medical hold company, and I stayed there, and, um, you know, that—that—once I got out, then I went home and that was it.
So, uh, one of the funny things that happened—um, my father and grandfather both sent in birthday cards for me, uh, while I was in training, and, uh—which normally wouldn’t be a problem, but they were being smartasses and they signed their card—they put in the address of the card—my father put down: “Captain Warren B. Partain, Jr., USNC” —I’m sorry—uh, “USNA class of ’66,” and, uh—and then my grandfather put, uh: “Major Warren B. Partain, Sr., USNC, retired,” and, um, the DIs, of course, got the letters and they called me up to the office, and, uh, you had to walk up to the office, you had to bang on the door and announce who you were, and then asked permission to enter in, and, uh, so I get into the office and, um, I see the birthday cards in my DI’s hand, and he goes, “So your father was a—was a ring banner?” And I knew right then what my dad had done.
The “ring banner” is a term—a derogatory term—for a Naval Academy graduate. So he goes, “Drop and give me 20.” [laughs] So—and he goes—of course, that wasn’t good enough, so I ended up doing like I think 60 or 70 pushups. Um, and of course, you know, that was because of what my grandfather and father had done, but, um, it was their amusement [laughs], but he wasn’t a mean guy. I mean, they started to like me. They’re not, um—it’s not like they’re sadists or anything like that—the drill instructors. They do it for a purpose, and then, you know. As you mature and things like that, you get to see what they’re trying to do and they really begin to teach you.
Hill
What would you say that purpose is [inaudible]? What were they trying to teach you?
Partain
Well, I mean, how to conduct yourself in a military fashion. A military bearing.
Hill
Okay.
Partain
Like one of the things—one of the things I still remember is to make sure my gig line is straight. Um, you know, when you get dressed and, uh, get everything together, your buttons line up with your belt—the edge of your belt buckle and your—and your zipper, so you have what’s called a “gig line.” It goes straight up from—from your neck down to your crotch [laughs].
Hill
So what was daily life like as a Navy recruit?
Partain
Well, everything was structured. I mean, you got in the—in the training, you got up at a certain time, you ate at a certain time, uh, you PTed at a certain time, uh, You had training and different things, uh, at—at different, um—at different times, and then they put you to bed. So you had no choice. I mean, very little free time. The only time we really got free time was laying in the rack before you went to sleep.
Hill
Who did you interact with on a daily basis?
Partain
Um, well, they kept you too busy. so you talked to your, um—your, you know—your bunkmate and the people around you, but for the most part you’re doing what they—they put in classes and they teach, you know—they—one of the first things they start teaching you is the UCMJ for the Univer[sic]—Univerm[sic] —Uniform Code Military Justice, which is the rules and regulations of the Navy. You know, how to salute, when to salute, um, how to march, uh, what you can and can’t do, um, And just, you know—it’s an emersion into a different life style.
Hill
Who were—you said you were taking classes, so who were your instructors?
Partain
Um, just other, uh—other, um—sometimes they were other Dis, sometimes they were, uh, just other people on the base. Um, No one that I really remember specifically.
Hill
Okay. Do you remember any of your specific classes?
Partain
Um, like I said, most of it— like the UCMJ. One of the funny ones, uh—probably not appropriate for this, but it’s one of those things that stuck in your mind. We’re sitting there showing slides and talking about the UCMJ, and they had, um—they had this slide come up, and it was on a pink background. It had a sailor sitting down, and on his lap, he had a dog, and there was a big circle with a line through [laughs] it for no bestiality, and I about but laughing when I saw it.
Hill
[laughs].
Partain
But they had—I mean, just stupid things like that, but, uh, the, uh, you know— when they start getting to the later weeks, like I said, they—[inaudible]—they—they’d have you march, and there was a lot of drill to get you to un—to get your body into the routines, and then later on, you start doing more class work, and, um, they, uh—like I said, they—they—one of the big things was firefighting. We are out doing firefighting duty, and then they have one a week, where you’re working KP [kitchen patrol] duty and stuff like that for the kitchen.
Hill
Uh, Could you clarify for me what, um—the acronym UCMJ?
Partain
University[sic] Code of Mil—Universal[sic] Code of Military Justice. [5] It’s the law for the military. So the military has its own, um—basically its own judicial system, uh, that’s separate from the civilian one. So they administer their own laws, and, uh, courts, and everything. So, like if I did something wrong, then I could be, uh—they have what’s called a “captain’s mast” or “court-martialing.” and your—whatever infraction, then you’ll assess whatever penalty or—or, uh, punishment that they have.
Hill
So what was the hardest thing you remember doing at NTC?
Partain
The hardest thing that I remember doing, um—I dunno. it was probably just the, um—I’m tempted to say—well, the—well, the thing that I didn’t like the most—that was hard or difficult for me—was in the military—medical hold company. Um, this—this was once they disqualified me from service. They put me in a limbo, um, where I didn’t know when I was going home. I didn’t know what was really going on, other than the fact that they were—they, uh—that I was being disqualified from the Navy, and they told me that, you know, it takes some time and it could take a couple days, a couple months. So I’m like, you know—no one likes to be in limbo, and they would have you do stupid stuff, Just to have you do it. Uh, like we went in to one barrack and we scrubbed the whole barrack with hand brushes, on our hands and knees, and it was just, um—stuff like that. That was, you know, trying not to get negged out. Um, that was the hardest thing for me.
I mean, to me, the training is easy. Um, you know, doing the physical activities, the running, uh, the marching, the learning. That was easy and it didn’t bother me. I mean, I enjoyed, um, the challenge of that. The hard part for me was when I realized that I was not going to be able to stay in the Navy, Having to wait, and then wait for the bureaucracy to process—process me out. Yeah.
Hill
Before we move on to that moment, um—because I do want to talk about that—can you tell me one moment where you felt really proud of your work in NTC?
Partain
Um, the—I think the proudest moment—I still have it—is, uh, my photograph. Um, they brought us in after we shaved us, and we’re all cleaned up, and they dressed us up, and they marched us in, and we took our photograph with the American flag behind us, uh, so we could send it home to Mom and Dad, and that to me was the proudest moment. Um, I—I still have that photograph. I have it on my Facebook page, and, um, I keep that, and, uh, you know—yeah[?]. It’s just a little snot-nosed kid in his little sailor’s uniform, but it—to me, that was something that I could show that hey, you know, I’m serving my country. I’m doing what’s right and trying to make, you know, things a little bit better than when I found it.
Hill
Did you send it home to mom and dad?
Partain
Oh, yeah.
Hill
What’d they say?
Partain
I think, uh—I mean, ma—they wrote me back, and I had a girlfriend, at the time too, and she wrote me. I had letters from her, um, on a daily basis. I still got them, and, uh, the, uh—I’ve got a stack of letters about that thick that she wrote to—back and forth, and that was nice, you know, to have someone writing back and forth. It—it kind of killed the monotony. You’d look forward to—you know, that was you’re little piece of individ—individuality. You get your letter and mail call and—and to read that, and, uh—but yeah. I sent that home to Mom and Dad, and my girlfriend.
Hill
So when did you leave the Navy then?
Partain
Yeah, I was, um—it was—I don’t remember the exact day, Um, but it was in February, uh, of ’88. It was roughly about two months after I’d got there. I think I served just under 60—60 days, or somewhere close to 60 days, and, um, basically they came in and told me to collect my gear, um, get my dress blues on, and they sent me home. See, when I enlisted, I enlisted, instead of as a, uh—um, going in as a seamen, I would have—when I completed everything, I would have come out as a, uh, Petty Officer—an E-3.
So, um, they allowed me to go home with a—with that uniform and that rank, which is kinda nice, you know? It was funny, ‘cause everyone else were[sic] being sent off, and I get my orders and am being put on a bus. They asked me if I wanted to go on a bus, or I think it was a train to Water Haven, and I said, uh, “Just drop me off at the airport.” I called my mom and dad and told them to come get me, because the airport’s, you know, 45 minutes from my parent’s house. Because a bus would have taken like 3 hours to get there. So I had them drop me off at the airport, and I played video games [laughs] for about two hours while I waited for my parents to come get me, but it was nice to, you know, walk around the airport in the—in my uniform and get home, and I saw my girlfriend in my uniform and that, uh—that’s always fun.
Hill
Um, so have you—what did you do once you left?
Partain
Um, well, once I was out of the Navy, I went back to college. Um, of course, the—my plan of having the Navy, uh, as a career and paying for my college that way kind of fell through. Um, I went to work for Disney World, and, uh, finished my AA [Associate of Arts] degree, and then transferred up to Florida State University and married my girlfriend, and I completed my degree up there, and, uh, you know, worked my way through college.
Made me appreciate my education a lot more, and, uh, one of the things ironic things and—that happened—and it kind of comes back full circle with NTC Orlando—um, seven years ago, I was diagnosed with, uh, male breast cancer. Oddly enough, my birthplace was extremely contaminated with, um, drinking water—I mean, uh, solvents in the drinking water, and one of those solvents is called Tetrachloroethylene, which is used in dry-cleaning, and it’s linked to breast cancer. Um, whenever I was a child growing up, I would break out into the rash I told you about, because—well, shortly after I was diagnosed, I went back, and I remembered my experience at NTC Orlando, and the fact that I had broken out in this rash after, uh, I had gotten on base. So I looked up the base, and like Camp Lejeune, NTC Orlando was declared a Superfund[6] site, um, uh, partly because of the Tetrachloroethylene dumped from the base drycleaner, which was located right next to the barracks, where I was housed as an enlisted, uh, sailor, uh—seaman—in, uh—in 1988, and the base was actually closed down in 1995, um, and listed in—into the Superfund site at that time, which, uh—it’s one of those odd things that I always wondered about is: how bad was the base contaminated? Because, soon as I got home, the rash that I had broken out with, while I was in training, cleared up
Hill
Hm.
Partain
Without any—within days of being home, and, uh—and it never broke out like that again, like I did when I was on base, and [inaudible]—when I rented on base, I was fine, and, uh—so it’s one of those things that makes you wonder, and my understanding is that the—the, uh, base drycleaner—he said they had been dumping this chemical on the base and it was a plume of it that actually stretched underneath the recruit training barracks, like I said, and ended up, I think, in Lake Druid—is where the chemicals were coming out.
Hill
Did—was there ever any cleanup measures taken?
Partain
I don’t know. I didn’t look into that. I’ve been tied up with the Camp Lejeune issue since then, but one of these days, I’d like to go back. I’d heard some things that had happened here, but I didn’t follow the—the end results of, um, NTC Orlando after that. I know they closed the base down and I think the developed it—part of it as a private community.[7] And I heard there were some problems here, but, uh, you know, like I said, I didn’t really follow—follow up on it, but I thought I would mention it.
Hill
Did you keep in touch with anyone from the base?
Partain
Uh, one of the guys I enlisted with, um, actually, was a high school friend of mine. We both went into the Nuclear Power School together. Um, His name is Alex, and he was actually, um, accepted into the United States Naval Academy, like my father, and he still presently serves in the Navy. I believe he’s a Commander or a Captain now. I do not know his rank. I haven’t—I haven’t kept up with him the past couple of years, but I think he’s a commander. but he did serve—uh, he’s—he’s still serving, and, uh, actually got an appointment to the Naval Academy, which is one of—one of the things I was hoping to do myself.
Hill
Uh, so one of the things you mentioned earlier is that, um, the Navy teaches you that you’re a part of something larger.
Partain
Mmhmm.
Hill
Would you say that that’s something that you feel you’ve carried on to the [inaudible]?
Partain
Well, growing up in a military family, it’s always been indoctrinated into me for that. Um, Like I mentioned, I, you know, became involved in the Camp Lejeune issue mainly, uh, because, you know, I realized what had happened to me wasn’t unique, and I felt a responsibility to speak out and help the other Marines and families, which I’ve been doing for the past seven years. So, I mean, that’s—growing up in a military family, um, you know, you—it just—it’s service, God, honor, country. I’m mean, that’s the way I was raised, and when you go into the service, you’re taught God, honor, country.
Hill
Are there any other values or characteristics, um, of the Navy that you think transferred to the rest of your life, as well?
Partain
No, I mean, the God, honor, country is[sic] primarily the core principles with which I’ve tried to guide my life.
Hill
What would you say is the most valuable lesson you learned during your time at the Navy?
Partain
Um, probably, never give up. You know, you always—you always keep moving forward and just, you know, never give up.
Hill
Can you remember a time while you were, um, in training that you felt like giving up, but didn’t?
Partain
Um, got lonely. I mean, left my girlfriend behind and, uh, there was a time where—yeah. I was thinking, Okay. I’m going to be doing this, going off at sea for six months, and I don’t know if I like that, and, you know you just—you look back and say, Well, why did I join? I joined because I wanted to get an education, I wanted to get a trade, and, you know, the Navy’s going to provide that, and, you know, you—you quickly overcome those things. Feelings are temporary [sniffs]. Good and bad [sniffs].
Hill
What do you think the lasting legacy of NTC Orlando or the Navy’s presence in Central Florida has been?
Partain
Well, the, um—for me—and understanding what I have come across, because of my, you know—because of the issue with breast cancer—it—unfortunately, I mean, NTC Orlando’s gone. Uh, it’s no longer there. The vestiges are still here, but what the Navy left behind underground, that is going to be here for years to come, and that’s something that really has not been addressed in a great deal with the community. Um, And sadly, that—in the end, that becomes the Navy’s legacy—is not for the good things they did, but for, you know, the irresponsibility for leaving toxic chemicals behind.
Hill
What actions would you like to see taken to resolve those issues?
Partain
Um, well, I’m not familiar totally with the issue to—to see what they’ve done. I know, as part of the bra—uh, Superfund site, they’re required to cleanup. Um, to what extent they’ve cleaned up, I don’t know. Uh, there’s a lot of different laws and, uh, different, um, procedures in place, but, in the end, you know, that—that’s something the Navy, um—well, I don’t know what to say on that. Sorry. I got distracted. The ADHD [attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder] is killing me here.
Hill
[laughs] That’s alright. That’s alright.
Partain
But[?]…
Hill
Um, so…
Partain
It’d be—it would be nice to have…
[phone rings]
Partain
We have a phone distraction here.
Hill
It would be nice to have…
Partain
Hm?
Hill
You were saying…
Partain
Okay. It would be nice to have an independent, um, historical analysis of what, you know—what the Navy did and exactly what the Navy legacy is. I mean, the—the infrastructure of the base is gone. Um, what’s left is the land that they owned on the base, and what did they leave behind on that land? and how will that affect the community? And sadly, you know, u, what was not cleaned up by the Navy, uh, will be there for some time to come and, you know, somebody’s gonna have to pay that cost.
Hill
So how do you think uh,—how is the NTC—well, you talked about how the base has changed. What about the region? Um, Central Florida as a whole. How do you think it’s been impacted since the base closed?
Partain
Well, the, um—I mean, the base itself, um, wasn’t a, uh, mega base, like you would have, say, with, um, Mayport Naval Station up in Jacksonville. Um, It had an impact on the community, uh, but not, you know—there wasn’t aircraft being serviced, um, there wasn’t[sic] ships and, you know, the contractors to work the ships and things, you know—servicing the ships or what have you. It’s a training center. So, uh—and I would say there was an economic impact. To what degree it was, I don’t know.
Hill
kay. Um, what do you think visitors would like to see or be reminded of when they revisit the site of the base? The [inaudible].
Partain
Well, I haven’t been back since I left, and, um, I’ve driven by it a couple of times. Uh, there was a gaming store called Enterprise 1701 near the base, where I used to get my board games. That was a hobby I had, and I—it would be nice to go back and see the site, uh, of where the base was, and maybe something commemorating that it was here, and, uh, I am curious to go back and see and see—and see exactly what is there, uh, and what’s left, and what they’ve done with the, uh—with the base and the Superfund site stuff, ‘cause there’s[sic] things that I’m aware of because of my involvement with Camp Lejeune and being on Camp Lejeune, that, you know, when you go on base, you look at things, and unless you know what you’re looking at, you don’t know what it is. So I’m kind of curious to see what’s there on the base.
Hill
Did you ever go back?
Partain
No.
Partain
I understand that the old naval hospital is the VA [Veterans Affairs] hospital now.
Hill
Now…
Partain
So I’d be curious to see that.
Hill
Were you ever at that hospital?
Partain
Yeah, that’s where I was…
Hill
That’s where you were disqualified.
Partain
Disqualified from service. They sent me to that hospital. I remember marching by myself with a chip, um, going down to the hospital, and, you know—and then, they were really puzzled, um, by what was happened with me. Matter of fact, I later got my me—my medical records from the Navy, and, uh, they were really puzzled why I broke out, because it was all over my arms and my face and was a blood red rash, and, um, they could not figure out what it was, and, uh, they kept asking all kinds of questions. They—they’re like, “Well, you had this when you si—when you signed up,” and I’m like, “Well, I was born with this, but it’s never been a problem like this,” and they said, “Well, how did you get passed recruit training or the recruit indoctrination and all that?” And I said, “Well, I wasn’t breaking out.” I said, “This is something that—normally, it comes and goes.” At the time, I thought it was, you know—in the wintertime, I’d break out or if I wore dry-cleaning clothes, and I thought, at the time, that it may have been the clothes—the polyester rubbing against my skin doing it. I had no idea that it could be anything else.
Hill
Right.
Partain
Because it would—I mean, I didn’t find out about what had happened to me at Camp Lejeune until, uh, 2007, which is 20 years after I joined.
Hill
Um, what was it like in the—the hospital—In the Navy hospital?
Partain
Um, just you’re standard, you know, ultra-clean hospital. Nothing—nothing special.
Hill
Nothing special? Okay. Uh, well, is there anything else you’d like to share about your Navy experience?
Partain
Um…
Hill
Anything you think I missed or we didn’t talk about?
Partain
No, I mean, it’s, like I said, the—I mean, for young people, the Navy—and in the military, in general, uh,—presents a lot of opportunities. You know, it’s not perfect. I could mention the contamination problem, with something present in the military especially during the ‘60s, ‘70s, and ‘80s, but, you know, for young people, it’s an opportunity to start your life, to pick up something, uh, unique, to learn, and more importantly, it—it builds a sense of self-discipline inside you. ‘Cause it’s very easy to forget that, you know, there’s more to the world than just you, and serving in the military is productive. I mean, it—it gives you a respect for yourself, respect for others, respect for your country. Um, and, you know, it’s something that, you know—I think everyone should do as a citizen of this country, and, uh—I mean, that’s just, um—there’s a lot of positives that come out of it. Now, the leadership of the military—that’s another story.
Hill
What’s next for you?
Partain
Um, well, I’m 46, and, um, uh, for me, um, I worked my career, raised my children, and, uh, I’m going back to get my Master’s [degree] in history, and I’m actually going to be writing about and doing research with, uh, contaminated military bases, uh—is my—my career until I retire.
Hill
So your experience has really shaped where you’re headed?
Partain
Well, the, um—more my birthplace. The, uh—Because of what happened to me, uh, before I was born at a military base, but, you know, NTC Orlando is one of those curious things that, once I put two and two together, I looked at it, and eventually, I’ll do the research on it and—and learn what happened there, but right now, my focus is other places.
Hill
Well, thank you so much for your time.
Partain
Oh, you’re welcome.
[1] Officially called the Walter Reed National Military Medical Center.
[2] United States Military Entrance Processioning Center Tampa.
[3] Correction: Jacksonville.
[4] Correction: Avon Park Air Force Range.
[5] Correction: Uniform Code of Military Justice.
[6] Comprehensive Environmental Response, Compensation, and Liability Act of 1980.
[7] Baldwin Park.
Joyner
Today is March 15th, 2014. I am interviewing Chad Etchison, who served in the United States Navy. Mr. Etchison currently serves as Command Senior Chief at NOS—NOSC [Navy Operational Support Center] in Orlando. My name is Chad Eric Joyner. We are interviewing Mr. Etchison as part of the UCF [University of Central Florida] Community Veterans History Project and as research for the creation of the Lone Sailor Memorial Project. We are doing this interview at the UCF Library in Orlando, Florida. Senior Chief, if you will please start off by telling us when and where were you born?
Etchison
I was born in Anderson, Indiana, on December 19th, 1973.
Joyner
What did your parents do for a living?
Etchison
Uh, my dad was a mechanic, uh, for Delta Air Lines and, uh—prior to the Navy, and my mom was a schoolteacher.
Joyner
Did you have any brothers or sisters?
Etchison
Yeah, I have a[sic] older brother, Mark, who’s, uh—currently works for Anderson University in Indiana. He’s a football coach, and I have a younger sister, Lana, who, uh, works in advertising in Atlanta, Georgia.
Joyner
Growing up, where did you go to school?
Etchison
Uh, well, when I was a very young age, we moved to Jonesboro, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta. So I, uh, grew up in Jonesboro, went to elementary school all the way through high school right there in Jonesboro.
Joyner
What did you do before entering the Navy?
Etchison
High school. I joined right [out of] high school. I—I—actually, I joined the Navy, um, just a couple months into my senior year. So I know what I was going to do.
Joyner
Um, when did you join?
Etchison
I joined in December of [19]91.
Joyner
Why’d you join the Navy?
Etchison
Um, I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do after high school. Um, my brother had received a football scholarship. He was a big sports star. I got a couple offers, but I kind of wanted to step outside—or from under his shadow a little bit. Do something different. Uh, and both my grandfathers and father were Navy veterans and they talked about their time in the service, so figured I give it a shot, and that’s what I did.
Joyner
So that’s why you selected the Navy over the other branches?
Etchison
Initially, I wanted to join the Army, but, um, my dad kind of talked me out of it and talked me into talking to a Navy recruiter, and, uh, once I talked to them, I got offered, uh the job I wanted, so I went with the Navy.
Joyner
How did your family feel about you joining the Navy?
Etchison
Uh, they were a hundred percent behind it.
Joyner
Where did you attend boot camp?
Etchison
Uh, I left Georgia in November of ‘92, um, come down here to Orlando, and, uh, I was here for a couple of days, uh, classing up there waiting for all the recruits to get here for my class. Then we officially started boot camp on December 1st of ‘92.
Joyner
What were you trained to do for your career in the Navy? What—what were you trained to do for your career in the Navy?
Etchison
At the time, I was just planning on, uh, doing my—I enlisted for six years, so my—my initial thought was just do the six years get the training and get out. See what was—well, what life had to offer me, but, uh, 21 years later, I’m still here so…
Joyner
When did you begin your training at NTC [Naval Training Center] Orlando, and how did this come about?
Etchison
Um, I graduated boot camp in February of ‘92.[1] Got two weeks leave and then started, uh, beginning of March—end of February of ‘92[2] at NTC Orlando. Uh, I went there, because of—that was the first phase of Electronics Technician School. Uh, the basic electronics was here in Orlando. Um, so I went through there and then from there I moved on to the [Naval Training Center] Great Lakes to finish my training.
Joyner
What did you know about the region, military, or—or any other information about Orlando, before arriving?
Etchison
Uh, actually, my—my grandparents—my dad’s parents—live in Winter Haven, Florida. So we’d been down here quite a bit vacationing and spending time with them. So I knew about the area—of course, the attractions and stuff, but as far as the military, um, I really didn’t know there was a boot camp here, until I joined the Navy. That’s—that’s where they told me I’d go.
Joyner
How long were you at NTC Orlando?
Etchison
Uh, I was there from Nov—at NTC? I was there from March until July of that summer, so several months.
Joyner
What was your first impression of the base?
Etchison
I loved the base. Uh, it was a training facility, so, uh it—it was nice. Um, act—actually, at the time, they were building some new schoolhouses, and, uh, I had several friends at Nuclear School there, so, uh, it was kind of like a college campus almost, you know?
Joyner
What were your first days of the service like?
Etchison
Confusing. Very confusing. Um, had no idea what was going on—on—all I knew was just they pointed this and told us to go somewhere, I just followed along and went with whatever they told me.
Joyner
What were you primary responsibilities at NTC Orlando?
Etchison
Uh, at NTC, I was, uh just a student primary. As a student, we would stand duty and have watch responsibilities, and, um, that’s pretty much it.
Joyner
What did the watch responsibilities consist—contain or consist of?
Etchison
Uh, watch responsibilities, uh—you had watch every four days or one weekend a month. Uh, mainly just staying quarterdeck watch at the barracks, uh, making sure everybody who entered the barracks had proper ID, and a reason for being in there and you’d clean. Basically, cleaning duties, making sure the barracks stayed clean and the—all the showers, they stayed clean.
Joyner
What was your overall impression of the recruits and their training at the base?
Etchison
At the beginning, you hated it, but at the end, um—I—I got a lot out of it. I thought it was a great experience. Um, you kind of grow up really fast, so the experience was—was for—for a young kid, to me, was a great—was great. I learned a lot—learned a lot about myself, you know? And the thing back then is there is no such word as “quit,” ‘cause they wouldn’t let you quit. They’d push, push, push, and when you thought you couldn’t go anymore, they’d push more. So it was a—it was a great experience for me. An eye-opening experience being, uh, fresh out into the world, right out of high school. So, um, I got a lot out of it, and I look fondly back on—on those memories.
Joyner
What kind of social life existed amongst the recruits?
Etchison
Um, first and foremost, respect, you know? Um, they demanded respect. Uh, it’s a little bit different nowadays, we’re more PC [politically correct] with the training, but back then, ultimately, you learned respect and you gave respect. Uh, that was the primary, and then, um, just the basics of being a sailor, what it was like to be a sailor, the routine of, um—of being a sailor and how to survive, uh, in the Navy [sniffs] [clears throat].
Joyner
How often was leave granted?
Etchison
Uh, in boot camp, it wasn’t. Um, when I was in training, if there was[sic] any special holidays, you got—you can request leave. Um, But everybody was offered two weeks leave, right out of boot camp, So I took advantage of that.
Joyner
Where did you go?
Etchison
Uh, I went back home, and actually, I started a week with the, um, local recruiters, going back to my high school and talking about my experiences in boot camp and stuff, And doing that, they only charged me for one week.
Joyner
How did you feel about going back with the recruiters?
Etchison
Uh, it was a proud experience to walk back into your high school and see, uh, a lot of the students that were still there. Walk back in uniform and stuff, and—and knowing—even though, looking back, it wasn’t that big of accomplishment, but at the time, to me, you know, going through boot camp and doing that was a big accomplishment for me. It’s kind of, uh, rewarding to go back and have everyone see you in uniform.
Joyner
How did you training experiences shape your relationship with other recruits in you class?
Etchison
It—it taught me, um—the biggest thing I learned is—is, uh—there were recruits from all over the country. So many different backgrounds and, uh—and I didn’t realize how diverse the military was and, uh—and how different, you know people’s upbringings was[sic] all over the country. So you learn to adapt to people and learn to, uh—to accept people for who they are, and—because—because you got to work together as a team, and ultimately, that was one of the things they taught us in boot camp—how to work together as a team. So regardless of your differences—your background—ethic, religion, whatever—When you are part of that team, it does not matter. You’re all one team. You have to work together. So that was an eye-opener too.
Joyner
Who did you interact with on a daily basis?
Etchison
Um, during boot camp, there was a couple of people that I interacted with, Uh—several recruits. One—one—one—his name was Tom Johnson. Um, he was from, uh, Red Wing, Minnesota, and I don’t know why, but me[sic] and him just got along. So me[sic] and him would talk on a daily basis.
Joyner
While you were at NTC, was there anybody…
Etchison
Um, actually, uh, he was also, um, in the electronics technician program too, so me[sic] and him were actually in the same class, and we ended up being roommates, and, um, a third roommate joined us. His name was Troy Slewroo[sp], and I become close friends with him and, uh, he’s still serving in the Navy as well, so I talk to him on a regular basis too. Um, after about a year, after I graduated Electronics School, I kind of lost track of Tom, so I’m not sure what happened to him, but Troy I still talk to on a regular basis.
Joyner
Who were your instructors?
Etchison
At boot camp, I remember there was a Chief K, and, um BM1 Conner, and, uh, I’ll never forget them, ‘cause they made a huge impact on me, and actually, several years ago, I ran into—who’s now Master Chief Conner. He was a Command Master Chief at Naval Station Mayport, and I was on a ship out there. I was at training and I heard the voice, and I—I know that voice. So I walked around the corner, and, uh, there’s Master Chief Conner. I had a conversation with him and I was floored when he actually remembered who I was. So and, um, in—in A School— I don’t remember his name, but I know he was a retired chief—electronics technician—and, uh, he was my instructor. I don’t remember his name.
Joyner
What were your instructors like?
Etchison
Um, during boot camp, the two instructors—they were hardcore workout fanatics. So, um, we got in pretty good shape, ‘cause, uh, they were all about pushups, sit-ups, doing all that kind of stuff all the time. So, um, they—they were pretty strict, but they also kind of had a joking side. They—they would joke with you and, um, they let you know when it was time to be serious and time to joke.
Um, my instructor for A School, um—he was great. He was a very personable person. Um, very strict in the classroom, but very approachable, and, uh, he helped us out a lot. Willing to do whatever he could to make sure we understand what he was teaching. So…
Joyner
What was the hardest thing you remember doing at NTC?
Etchison
Uh, the hardest thing was going through Electronics Technician School. It’s just so much information thrown—THROWN at you at one time. Um, and, uh, it was fast and furious, and—and coming out of high school, um, the—the pace was just so much quicker than I was ever use to, And a lot of information to try and retain and, uh, just trying to figure out how to study and—and how to be able to regurgitate that information during our labs and during our tests. So, eh, that was very challenging for me, and—and I struggled a little bit at first, and, um, eventually the instructor to help me along kind of—I went to him and he taught me actually how to study and the proper ways to—to study to help us out, ‘cause the pace was just so fast.
Joyner
What was your proudest moment?
Etchison
Um, making it through basic electronics training. Um, I was proud when I graduated boot camp, but, uh, moving on with Electronics Technician School—that was the first hurdle you had to get through. Um, Otherwise, you could have went to—if you failed out, which we had a couple guys drop out, you got sent to the fleet to a ship—basically undesignated. So you were working with the boatswain, which is not the funniest job, and I joined to do electronics work, so once I got past that first hurdle of graduating electronics school, that was a big—big moment for me.
Joyner
Tell me a story of a time at NTC you will never forget.
Etchison
There—there’s a couple, but the one that stands out the most is, um—was in boot camp, ‘cause, uh, the first time we really got, uh, a PT’d [physically trained] really hard, they called it “cycling.” And, um, we did what they call a “rain party,” where all the windows were shut, all the bunks were pushed back, and they just PT’d us until condensation formed on the ceiling. We were just going and going, and going, and, uh at the time, we were, uh, [inaudible] This is the worst thing in the world, but looking back on it, it was like, Wow. That was—that was—that was the big start of it all, you know? The—the defining moment of how—how far you were going to be pushed, and you just kept going, because, you know, you were scared to stop, ‘cause these guys were on you, you know? So, um, that’s something I’ll never forget. Looking back on it, I—I kind of chuckle. Uh, that’s kinda fun, because they do not do that kind of stuff anymore, but, uh, um—yeah. I—it’s kind of a fond memory now, even though it wasn’t fun at the time.
Joyner
And that was when you first arrived or the first few months [inaudible]?
Etchison
Uh, no. In the first week or so of being there, once we finally classed up and got moved into our barracks and started to settle in.
Joyner
How would you describe the USS Blue Jacket and its function?
Etchison
Um, unfortunately, when I was there, we didn’t get to do much on the USS Blue Jacket, ‘cause, uh, they were doing some work on it. So, um, we just got the basic tour, got to do some, um, simple line handling drills on it, and that’s about all we go to do, but like I said, because they were doing work on it. So, um, I remember seeing it though and, um, thought it was kind of small for a ship, but, uh, um, I wish we got to the full training, but we just didn’t.
Joyner
And what class of ship was the Blue Jacket?
Etchison
You know, I don’t recall. Um, if I had to guess, I’d probably say it’s a frigate. A small vessel. Kind of really don’t recall.
Joyner
What was the official purpose of the Grinder and what it—it’s significance to you and the recruits?
Etchison
The Grinder, um—that was the— main thing—that’s where we learned how to march, and—and how to follow, uh, calls and military protocol. Um, a lot of work was done on the Grinder. We—in the early mornings, we’d PT’d on the Grinder, and then, uh, we spent a lot of hours in the afternoon just doing marching drills, learning formations over and over and over, you know? Um, it was a big deal when you got your—your, um, dungaree uniform, and, uh, as soon as we got them, um, they took us back to the barracks, and dressed out in them, and went right out to the Grinder, and marched for hours, just to break in your boots. Which we, uh—actually, they were boondockers. They weren’t even boots. They were three-quarter inch, uh—three-quarter inch boondockers. So, um, a lot of blisters [laughs] and stuff, but—yeah. A lot of times, just learning drills and marching quite a bit.
Joyner
How would you defi—how would you define the Grinder to other people? What would you—How would you—what did it mean to you?
Etchison
Oh, um, gosh. At the time, it was a work area, you know? Um, at the time, it meant you—when they said, “Hit the Grinder.” You kind of like—Aw, man. Here we go, you know? You never knew what you were in for, um, whether we were going to PT at the time, even though we had a set scheduled for stuff, you know? If they said “Hey. We’re hitting the Grinder,” you kind of—you didn’t know what you were in for. You were kind of hesitant at the time, but, uh, that—that was the foundation for learning, like I said, the drills and protocol and all them calls, and, um—and on the Grinder, that’s where we become a team, ‘cause if one of us messes up in formation, we all paid the price, so we learned, you know, uh, about being a team.
So when—when I think of the Grinder, I think of, you know—that was the formation of teamwork there and that’s how—where we really learned, uh, to be one, and I guarantee you: by the time we did our graduation ceremony, um, we were all in perfect harmony and perfect step, because of we—we worked it all out there on that Grinder, and we were on that Grinder—we were on the Grinder every day, rain, shine, and, uh, I was here during the winter. It doesn’t matter what the weather was. We were out on that Grinder every day. So, um, a lot of hard work, but, um, a lot, uh—a lot of teamwork came out of that, you know?
So I guess I look back on the Grinder as a, you know—just a—probably a— significant place in Naval history, you know? Because if you think of all the sailors who walked on that Grinder—who learned the same lessons I did there, you know—it’s kind of sad that it’s gone now, you know? But it’s, you know—I never really thought about it until—‘til you asked me, so it—it’s—it’s a pretty—pretty significant, I would say, in my past.
Joyner
What other training bases did you go to?
Etchison
Uh, [clears throat] when I left Orlando, um, I went out[?] to Great Lakes, Illinois, and, uh, did Phase 2 of Electronics School, which is advanced electronics, and then, I also went to, um, the [Naval] Training center out in San Diego[, California] for some follow-on schools before reporting to my first ship.
Joyner
How would you compare the other bases to NTC [Orlando]?
Etchison
I always questioned why they closed Orlando and—and, uh, kept Great Lakes open, because, uh, to me, the base here was nicer. It was in, uh, better shape. Um, But, understandably, the—the history up in Great Lakes, You know—the historical buildings. There’s a lot of history up there, as well, but, um, I always favored this base. It was just, you know—and—and those of us who been through—went through Orlando, kind of take ownership of it, and, you know, um, I [inaudible]—when I first moved down here, uh, six months ago, when I got transferred, I drove over to Baldwin Park just to see what was still there, and, uh, I was kind of sad to see it all gone, you know? I didn’t recognize anything over there anymore.
Joyner
What other areas of the base were particularly important to the recruits?
Etchison
Uh, on boot camp, um, of course your barracks were very important, because, uh, if you ventured outside of that, you know, it—you—that was kind of your safe zone when you were with your—your company commanders, um, that and, um, there was a USO [United Service Organization] right outside, and, um, it was a big deal, ‘cause I know we were there over Christmas, and, um, we got, uh—I think it’s like 45 minutes-an hour. They let us—we were allowed to go over to the USO and just kind of let our hair down for a little while, and, uh, the USO would have some snacks and stuff for us, and, uh, that was always a—a—a great place, you know? I remember going over there and just loving it, and when, uh, we graduated boot camp, everybody migrated over to the USO and that’s where you met your families and stuff.
Um, on the NTC side, I remember there was a little club that had the ar—ar—arcade games, and jukeboxes, and pool. Um, that was—that’s kind of the place we all congregated either after school or on the weekends, um, and there was a McDonald’s. I remember the McDonald’s. Um, there was a volleyball court right across from it, um, in front of some barracks. So usually after school, we—we’d run over get changed and go to the volleyball court, and, uh, you know, spend the majority of the afternoon there, and the, uh, go for McDonald’s, grab something, and go back to barracks and study for the night, and be ready to go the next day.
Joyner
Is that McDonald’s still there or no?
Etchison
Uh, I don’t think so. Not that I remember.
Joyner
What did it feel like to graduate and finally put the hat on?
Etchison
Oh, the white hat? Yeah. Uh, that was a big moment. Um, you strive, and, uh, I remember wearing, you know, the other cap—your—your stocking cap all the time, and you’re looking[?] and you’re like, Aw, I can’t wait until I get the white hat. Can’t wait to get—you know, ‘cause to use that was the signal of a sailor, and once you got the white hat, you know, you knew you were almost there. Um, so that was a big goal that everybody was striving for, was to get the white hat, and then once you got it, you kind of, you know—you kinda strutted around, you know, ‘cause you saw all the other companies that didn’t have theirs yet. So you felt a little better than everyone else. So it was—it was a good feeling.
Joyner
What did you do for the Navy after you completed your training?
Etchison
Um, when I finished, um, I reported to my first ship the USS John A. Moore. Um, I was on there for, uh, three years. Um, deployed a couple times with them. Um, I got to do some work on the USS Wadsworth—help out some fellow ETs [Electronic Technicians] for some time.
After that, I—I transferred to the White House Communications Agency [WHCA]. I was fortunate to get picked for that, and, um, I was—I served under President [William “Bill” Jefferson] Clinton—his last three years, and, uh, Got to setup and maintain all the communications equipment for the President and Secret Service, and, uh, one—one of my primary jobs was to work in the limo shop, so I got to install maintain the presidential limousine, the communications equipment.
From there, I went to Fleet Combat Training Center in, uh, Dam Neck, Virginia, and, uh—and worked on radar systems there. Um, and I—I was fortunate enough to make chief while I was there, and, um, after graduating there I went to the USS Simpson—was on the Simpson out of Mayport, Florida, for, uh—for three and a half years. When left the USS Simpson—when I deployed on to a NATO [North Atlantic Treaty Organization] cruiser, during the [Global] War on Terrorism,[3] with the Simpson and then, um, from there, I went to the, uh, Naval Expeditionary Combat Command. I—I helped stand that up. It was a small staff when I got there. Probably 30-40 people, and, uh, we built up the expeditionary force and when I left we were a staff of 300, uh, plus sailors, and, um, from there, um, I went to Des Moines, Iowa, of all places, with the Navy. Um, I was a Senior Enlisted Advisor for the Navy Operations Force Center out in Des Moines, Iowa. While I was out there, I, um—I made Senior Chief at NACC, and when I was out there, um, I went to the Navy Senior Enlisted Academy and got, uh—and applied and got selected for a Command Senior Chief program, and so, uh, I was at a, uh—a Command Master Chief conference and my [inaudible] was there, and, uh, I got to talking to him, and—and, uh he told me that the, uh—that the Navy Operations Support Center here in Orlando had just, uh, received a Command Senior Chief billet[?], and, uh, asked me if I was interested in coming down here. So, uh, Aft—I thought about it, and I was like, You know, I’m getting to the point where I might want to retire. I figured that would be a great place to retire. So I started my career there and—and I thought it would be neat. If I do retire here, to end it here. So this is where I’m at now.
Joyner
Of all your previous deployments and stations, which one to you is—was the most influential and significant? Which one means the most to you?
Etchison
Uh, probably the USS Simpson. Um, that was my first, um, real command. I was a new chief when I got there, and, um, I learned so much on that ship. I had some great people. I had a few people above me that I didn’t think was[sic] great, but still, um, I—I learned a lot of lessons there on how to treat people, on how not to, um, uh, what it takes to run a division on a ship, um, to be that leading chief.
Um, a lot of that lessons learned on that stuff—on that ship, uh—experiences I—I couldn’t have gotten anywhere else, except for being at sea, you know? So, um, I’m very grateful that I, uh, chose to enter[?], and, um—and the lessons learned—you know—good and bad—that—that was just the biggest learning curve for me—was that 3 years, and, um, I was very fortunate to have a couple, um, of chiefs and senior chiefs I still talk to, to this day, that kind of helped mentor me. From, you know, being a new chief, and I feel when I left that command, I was a seasoned chief, and, um, you know, a lot of great, great chiefs helped me along, and—and we had some good officers that really, you know, helped me learn even more. I kind of thought I knew a lot, and then when I got there, I thought I was in over my head, but, um, it was just such a great experience and a learning experience [inaudible]. I’ll—I’ll look fondly on that command.
Joyner
Where you ever in an active warzone?
Etchison
Um, active warzone? No. Um, we did do, um, boardings, um, outside in the Mediterranean [Sea]. Um, the ships going to and from the Gulf. [inaudible] there’s, um—we did boardings—non-compliance boardings—but I was never in an active warzone though.
Joyner
Could you talk about the boardings, or no?
Etchison
Um, some—some of the boardings, um, [inaudible]—some of them—we did the same thing on—on, uh, my first ship, down off the coast of South America, as well. It’s just, uh, you know, um, looking for contraband. Uh, we go, uh, trying to make contact with the ships. If—if they’re will to stop, great, and let us board, great. If not, for the non-compliance ones, we kind of forced them to stop, and, um—boarding, and I was fortunate to be part of a boarding team on a couple of those, and, uh, whether they are compliant or not, boarding a ship is always nerve-racking, ‘cause you don’t know what to expect, and Of course, you’re looking for contraband and—and, um—and, uh, going through the ship is always kind of nerve-racking, ‘cause you, you know—you don’t know what—there’s so many places to hide on a ship, and, um—so it—it was—it was interesting, to say the least. Um, nerve-racking, but, um, fortunate enough, um, uh—the few, um, kind of situations that happened, I wasn’t involved in those. So I was—I was extremely fortunate, you know? So that’s about that. Nowadays, they don’t do that.
Joyner
You mentioned you kept in touch with one of your buddies from the NTC.
Etchison
Mmhmm.
Joyner
Is there anybody else you kept in contact with from the Navy?
Etchison
Um, I got a couple mentors. Uh, two—two of them have retired from the Navy, but I still keep in contact with them. I touch bases with them, um, if I got a situation I am in and I’m not sure how to handle that, or what to do. Or, uh, if I make a decision on what I’m going to do, I usually call them and run it by them. I—I kind of get their take, um,and—and I’ve made a couple of real good friends along the way that—that I keep in touch with. So I would say—and my dad gave me this advice when I joined the Navy—He told me, um, you know, “Mot everybody’s your friend. You’re going to make a lot of acquaintances, but your—your friends, you’ll keep in touch with.” And so, um, I would say, out of all the sailors I served with, probably about 4 or 5 I keep in touch with.
Joyner
What values or characteristics of the Navy do you believe made an impression on your life?
Etchison
Well, the, you know—our core values are honor, courage, and commitment, and, um, with honor, it’s just not, you know—I feel honored to wear the uniform, but, uh, it’s—it’s an honor to represent not only the United States, but all those sailors that have served before me, and, uh, especially those chiefs who, uh, have made the Navy strong. Because, you know the saying is “The chiefs are the backbone of the Navy.” And my ultimate goal in the Navy was to make chief, once I decided to make it a career, and obtaining that goal and being a part of the mess is, you know, the big honor, and I just want to live up to the standards that, you know, all the sailors before me have set, you know?
Um, and another characteristic is—is courage, and courage doesn’t mean you’re not scared, you know? Um, being courageous is when you’re unsure, maybe a little scared, but you do—you do the job anyway, and—and being courageous is, you know, sometimes making an unpopular decision, you know to, uh—with some of my junior personnel, you know, I know the decision is not going to be popular—not going to like it, but you gotta make it and—and—and be committed to the—to the decision, and, you know, [inaudible] that goes along with commitment, you know? Um, Not only being the decision-maker, but as somebody making the decision, whether you like it or not, or agree with it or not.
Um, we have this saying in the mess, you know: “Acceptance doesn’t mean agreement.” You don’t have to agree with it, but you’re committed. That’s the way we’re going, so let’s go and you drive your sailors to—to follow along. So, um, the values that the Navy hold dear—honor, courage, and commitment—that’s[sic] the ones I take on and try to live up to, and I’ll tell you this: not only in my professional life, but in my personal life as well. ‘cause I—I’m always mindful that my actions out in the civilian world, um, Can affect my professional world, as well, and I—I don’t want to do anything that would discredit, you know, the Navy, as well as discredit my family.
Joyner
So overall, what would you say is the most valuable lesson you learned from the Navy?
Etchison
Wow. Um, you—it’s—it’s—I’ve changed so much in my way of thinking, in the Navy. Um, I think the most valuable lesson is being, uh, tolerant of, uh, different points of view, different, um, people, you know? Um, it’s okay to have your own opinion and to state your opinion and have your belief, as long as you’re willing to accept the fact that there’s[sic] people out there that’s[sic] gonna disagree with you and have a different point of view, and, um, that’s one thing [inaudible], uh—uh, where I grew up, um, I kinda had a mindset of a way things should be and my beliefs, but, um, sitting here 21 years later, I’m a totally different person. I think I’m more open and more, uh, subjective to—other people’s, um, either backgrounds or, you know, ways of life, and, you know, the way I look at it—I, you know—we’re all people. We all have a right to our own opinion, our own way of life, so as long as it doesn’t affect me directly, you know, I haven’t put much thought into it.
Joyner
You said when you returned back to Orlando, you didn’t recognize the base, so—or the area at all. So how would you say the NTC base or the Central Florida region changed since you left?
Etchison
Um, from what I remember, um, there—there’s a few landmarks that are here that I remember going to, um, around the base. Church Street Station is still there. Um, there’s a couple of restaurants—still there, but the landscape has changed, you know, to being primarily housing now, and, um, I think the demographics of the population has changed too. Um, I think there’s more of a Hispanic culture here than I remember.
Um, so, um—and this is the—since boot camp, you know, this is—the last six months is the first time I’ve really been here—living here, you know, not just kind of visiting to visit the theme parks and stuff like that. That’s totally different than actually being—excuse me—being a resident here. So, um, I think the demographics has[sic] changed and, you know, that whole area around Lake Baldwin now, you know, just seems to me to be all housing and stuff now, and, uh, there—there was a club—I think it was called Manatees—outside the gate there—that I was looking for to see if to see if it was still there, and, uh, it might be there, but I couldn’t remember my way around, because I didn’t recognize the area. Um, I remember that and, uh, there was a hotel in the area we use to stay at on the weekends, just to get away. It was the Colonial Plaza. I don’t know if it is there or not. Uh, I’ve [inaudible] —I’ve talked to my wife. I was like, you know, “I want to take some time and drive around see if we can find it,” or, you know—so—But, uh, yeah. It’s totally changed.
Joyner
What do you think the lasting legacy of the NTC Orlando—of is—of the NTC Orlando?
Etchison
I would hope people remembered it was here, you know? And, um, I know the [Central Florida] Navy League has worked hard, uh, to get the—the Lone Sailor [Memorial Project] statue out in Baldwin Park, which, um, that would be a good reminder. Even talking with some of the younger sailors nowadays, uh, when I told them, “Hey. I went to boot camp in Orlando,” they didn’t even know, you know, that Orlando even existed as—as a RTC [Recruit Training Center] or that we had a base down here, Other than where we’re at now. Um, so I—I just hope people remember, you know, that we were here—that we were a big footprint here, at one time, and, uh, I think that Lone Sailor statue would be a lasting memorial, At least to all the sailors, you know, that[sic] served here, and at least we get some kind of recognition that we were here and did something here. So, um, sad that it’s gone, but it is what it is.
Joyner
What do you—what do you think former Navy personnel would like to see or be reminded of when they revisit the site?
Etchison
Um, I think just having a statue that, you know—the Lone Sailor Statue just represents a—a lot to sailors, and, uh, seeing that there would be a, you know—hopefully, just a good reminder, uh, of the things that went on, you know, at RTC and NTC, and, uh,it’s funny when—when I got asked to do this—and looking through my book and thinking about, you know, um—you remember all the good times, you know? The bad times—you just forget—kinda forget them, unless somebody brings something up, but, uh, you remember the good times, and hopefully, having a memorial there, you know, when—when the sailors come back to visit and they see that, it will bring back the good memories of—of that, and the positives that they experienced there.
Joyner
Before we finish I want you to fill in the—fil in the blank for me.
Etchison
Okay.
Joyner
NTC Orlando means what to me.
Etchison
[sighs] I tell you: NTC Orlando means a new beginning for me. Um, because I was there at, uh, RTC and NTC, where I got the first taste of the world and experience the world on my own, not in a family environment or setting, and, uh, I had to rely upon myself, you know, to get things done or to be more responsible. Um, I—I had to answer to a higher authority for my actions. So it was a total new beginning for me, and, um, looking back, I think I made the right choice for myself, ‘cause I couldn’t, um—I couldn’t imagine myself doing anything else, and—and, um—and having that experience there and getting to experience life, uh, on my own being, able to make my own decisions and do things, you know, um—that’s, uh—that’s where it all started for me. Right there.
Joyner
Is there anything I haven’t asked you about or anything else you would like to talk about, sir?
Etchison
You know, I—I can’t think of anything. Um, not at the moment. No.
Joyner
Thank you, Senior Chief Etchison, for taking your time to conduct this interview for us. We appreciate your service and we look forward to—hopefully to this going forward to become part of the Lone Sailor Memorial Project.
Etchison
Uh, thank you for—for inviting me, and, uh, service is a pleasure. So it’s my pleasure to serve—serve the United States and to be able to serve its great people. So, um, I appreciate your “thank you,” but it—it’s—it’s a pleasure and it’s an honor to be able to do this. So, um, thank you for inviting me.
Bradfield
Today is March 10th, 2014. I am interviewing [William] “Bill” Rotto[sic]—Reuter, who served in the United States Navy from 1979 through 2010?
Reuter
2012.
Bradfield
2012. Um, they, uh—Mr. Reuter served during the Cold War and completed his service as a…
Reuter
Captain.
Bradfield
Captain. Um, my name is Daniel Bradfield. We are interviewing Mr. Reuter as part of the UCF [University of Central Florida] Community Veterans History Project and as research for the creation of the Lone Sailor Memorial Project. We are recording this interview at [Central Florida] Research Parkway in Orlando, Florida. Mr. Reuter, can you please start us off by telling us when and where you were born?
Reuter
I was born in [April 4th,] 1961 in Camden New Jersey.
Bradfield
Okay. Uh, what did your parents do for a living?
Reuter
My dad owned a mobile home business in, uh, Key West, Florida, which is where I grew up, and, uh, my mother, uh did all kinds of different things, including deal with us.
Bradfield
Uh, what did you, uh—do you have any brothers or sisters?
Reuter
I have two younger brothers and, uh—one of them in Pennsylvania and the other down in the Keys.
Bradfield
Growing up, where did you go to school?
Reuter
I went to school in Key West. Uh, grew up in a trailer park, because we owned trailers and trailer parks, and so, uh—but, uh—all—all throughout my life in Key West.
Bradfield
Um, what did you do before entering the Navy?
Reuter
Uh, basically, I was a student—I was a high school student, and received an [Reserve Officers’ Training Corps] ROTC scholarship out of—out of Key West High School, and then went straight to UF [University of Florida] to, uh, start my journey in the Navy.
Bradfield
Um, why did you join the Navy?
Reuter
I wanted to fly airplanes. I wanted be an astronaut.
Bradfield
Um, do you have any other family members in the service?
Reuter
I had an uncle that was in the Air Force, uh, but that’s about it.
Bradfield
Uh, how did your family feel about you joining the Navy?
Reuter
Very, very supportive.
Bradfield
Where did you attend boot camp?
Reuter
As an officer, my boot camp was really going through the Reserve Officer[sic] Training Corps program at UF. So I didn’t attend a formal boot camp, like many of the enlisted sailors that you’ve interviewed.
Bradfield
Did you ever see active duty in a warzone?
Reuter
Uh, only on, uh, Line of Death in Libya, and, uh, in the Norwegian fjords, uh, against Soviet, uh, reconnaissance, uh, and bomber aircraft, but not in the current [Persian] Gulf conflict.[1]
Bradfield
Um, do you have any stories you’d like to share about those encounters?
Reuter
Well, I mean, it’s always fun seeing people that, you know, think differently from you, and back in the [19]80s, certainly, we saw the Soviet Union as, uh—as sort of an enigma. It was very, very mysterious, because they were in this whole different, you know, behind the—Steel Curtain, you know? And so, uh, we had a lot of curiosity, and—and, uh, we’d look back at each other in airplanes, and here we are up in the middle of nowhere, and we just con—continue to have that kind of curiosity. Most of my stories having to do with, uh, stress and overcoming stress in the service have more to do with landing aircraft—landing aircraft on aircraft carriers at night. Those sorts of things. Because those are often, uh, scarier than most other things that an aviator would encounter.
Bradfield
Do you have any stories about any close calls while trying to land on an aircraft carrier?
Reuter
Certainly. Uh, well, I can tell you that, uh, at one point, I was—I had had a, uh, problem—what we call a “bleed air fuel leak,” which can create a fire, and so I had lights in the cockpit that were saying that there was excessive heat in the engine compartment. Uh, and it was—it’s what they call “one step short of a fire.” And a fire out on the aircraft carrier, when there’s really nowhere else to go, and, In this case, the aircraft carrier was so far off of any coast, that we were doing what you call “blue water op[eration]s.” “Blue water ops” meaning you’re going nowhere but back to the carrier, or the aircraft is going in the ocean. So we had to think real quick[sic]. We had just launched off catapult, so we were still very heavy, and we couldn’t land on the carrier right away. Carrier read—wasn’t even ready to catch us right away. So, uh—so we had to do, uh, some— real, uh, quick emergency things. Cockpit was getting very, very hot. Uh, they estimated it was around 130 degrees, uh, in the cockpit, and, um, we had to, uh—had to bring it back aboard the carrier, and—and, uh, did that, and got out of the airplane, and went down, and had me a cheeseburger. Because, uh, that’s one of the ways that we aviators deals[sic] with—deal with stress.
Bradfield
Did you receive any special commendations or medals?
Reuter
Uh, lots in the Navy, certainly. A couple of Legions of Merit medals, uh, which I am very, very grateful for. Uh, most of my accolades though, I can tell you—like most other sailors, I believe, would say—and that is: it’s not only due to them personally. None of these awards, uh—though you wear them as a personal decoration—a decoration, most of the time, they are as a result of the team you were on and the people you served with. Uh, But I was very fortunate to get a—a good number of accolades, uh, in the Navy, Including two commands. Uh, my—my biggest role, before this role down here at NAWCTSD [Naval Air Warfare Center Training Systems Division], uh, was—it’s Commanding Officer and Chief Test Pilot of the squadron up at [Naval Air Station] Patuxent River, Maryland, Where I flew as an [McDonnell Douglas] F[/A]-18 [Hornet][2] test pilot.
Bradfield
Uh, when were you assigned to NAWCTSD?
Reuter
I got here in, uh, January of 2008. So—and as I—as I moved into the role as Executive Officer, which is the second-in-command.
Bradfield
Did you know the—did you know about the region, militarily or other, before coming to NAWCTSD Orlando?
Reuter
All I knew about Orlando, uh, other than knowing a little bit of what NAWCTSD did and the—the—I did not know or appreciate the whole modeling and simulation cluster we had here. I knew there was a base,[3] when there was a boot camp,[4] and everything like that, and the nuke school,[5] But I did not know a lot about what NAWCTSD did, other than produce the aviation simulators that I was fortunate enough to fly.
Bradfield
What were your first impressions of the base?[6] Or—or the surrounding area?
Reuter
Well, I was very impressed with the—the—the—the proximity of everything. I was impressed that we were really close to the Army and we were really close to the Air Force and Marine Corps, and I was astounded with the intimacy of the relationship with the University of Central Florida, uh, and—and continued to enjoy that relationship throughout my tenure at NAWCTSD.
Bradfield
How did that compare to other bases you have been stationed at?
Reuter
There’s absolutely nothing like this area right here. There—there are no—no entities, within the [U.S.] DOD [Department of Defense], that duplicate what we have here. What we have here is a clear synergistic effect, not only based on proximity. You can put anybody in a building next to another entity and not gain the kind of synergies we get here from the partnerships and the relationships that we have across academia, and industry, and now these DOD activities.
Bradfield
What were your first days at NAWS—NAWCTSD like?
Reuter
I came in with—wearing civilian clothes, ‘Cause I was actually a, uh—in a—in a class. So this class had you wearing civilian clothes. So people didn’t know that I was the guy that was gonna come in and eventually be in charge. So it was actually very cool, ‘cause I could have this sort of Brubaker approach to it, Where [Henry] Brubaker was the guy that[sic] went into the prison as the warden and he went in as an inmate. So I kinda went in in that underground kind of incognito way, and it was great, ‘cause I got to hear the conversations. I got to understand a little bit more about the culture/ but it is the most unique place that I have ever served in the Navy.
Bradfield
What were your primary responsibilities while you were at NAWCTSD?
Reuter
Well, I was the Executive Officer, who is the second-in-command, so responsible for pretty much everything that happens, uh, at NAWCTSD, and the other thing that a lot people don’t rec—recognize is that when you’re the commanding officer, or the Executive Officer, of NAWCTSD, You are also the Executive Officer, Commanding Officer of NSA Orlando—the Naval Support Activity Orlando, which is the base. So all of the stuff that deals with the gates, and the guards, and any of the sort of anti-terrorism measures, or any of that kind of stuff when it comes to protection, You deal with in capacity as CO or the XO, so—Commanding Officer or Executive Officer—of NSA Orlando. So you really had two hats and two jobs.
Bradfield
So, eh, what was a typical day like, um, when you were, uh, Executive Officer?
Reuter
Well, a typical day as Executive Officer, uh, had a lot to do with, uh, a series of meeting, most of which were people that[sic] wanted a decision about one thing or another. Some of them were informational, but we tried to keep those to a minimum. Most of the time, I was given direction and—and providing guidance to people that were trying to, uh, make decisions. Uh, I—I tried to give them enough context to how I would decide, so that they could make decisions on their own and have my full faith, trust, and confidence, as they did so. So a lot of different things go on as you can imagine. Running, uh, a warfare center and a base, and so, there’s, uh, everything from acquisition stuff that has to be decided, to what, uh—to—to where we’re gonna—to what color carpet we’re gonna pick out. There’s just a lot of different things [laughs] that—you[?] pro—and anything in between that spectrum.
Bradfield
Um, can you tell us about the types of projects you worked on and what they aimed to accomplish?
Reuter
The things that I’m most proud of, and the thing that people need to understand is that: simulation—we talk about it, kind of, trying to create an environment that is the real thing, and, in this environ—in this world today— in the way that we train our airmen, our sailors, our soldiers, and our Marines, We have to create some really, really immersive environments, in order to generate the kind of suspension of disbelief. For people to go in there and actually get proficiency from these environments. I mean, there’s[sic] so many people playing video games and they’re dealing with such cool graphics and immersive effects that you really, really need to wow them, in order to create that environment, and in the aviation community, it becomes even harder, because you’re dealing with very dynamic technology and it’s not as easy to do that.
So what we decided to do in the Navy was really, really take hold of this whole idea of increasing the fidelity of our simulations. Whether it be better visuals, better motions, better all kinds of different things that you can do to generate, uh—to—to give them an environment where they could actually be trained, and so, we were—I was—I was fortunate enough to be there, from ‘08 to ‘12—from 2008 to 2012—where we made huge investments that we still continue to make, but it was really the—the tip of the iceberg, for the money that’s going into simulation and that is being taken out of a lot of the live exercises that we used to do that cost a lot of money and that required a lot of infrastructure, and you had to sustain that infrastructure. So that’s a—a cost that is per—you know, in perpetuity. So we’ve have really changed our mindset on simulation. That’s been the most important thing that I was a part of—of being able to do that in, uh, aviation, surface, subsurface, and other communities.
Bradfield
In what ways have the simulation projects at NAWCTSD impacted other branches of the military?
Reuter
So the Air Force, uh, is very, very big on simulation, as well. They’re—we do a lot of collaboration through—not only of the acquisitions that we do, you know? We—we go out and we buy a simulator, and we go to some of these industry partners that are in this area and around the country, and, in fact, the world, and we buy, you know, an aircraft simulator or we buy a ship simulator, or something like that, but what’s really cool is the collaboration that goes into the technical side of this, before we ever ask industry to give us a simulator. We inform each other, through symposia and the like, to understand better the science of learning, to understand better where the technology is going, So we can be leaning forward as a DOD—and not only as a DOD, but as other agencies around here. We still work with the [U.S.] Department of Homeland Security and with other agencies that have benefit from this technology training their workforce—whatever it might be. So that collaborative energy, and the fact that we have papers, and we have symposia that sort of continue to nurture that collective understanding of the technology and its merit in the science of learning. That’s what moves this needle forward for all of us. So that NAWC—it’s not only NAWCTSD, or PEO STRI [Program Executive Office for Simulation, Training and Instrumentation], or any of those entities. It is all those entities and their collective, uh, IP—intellectual property—to get together that gets moved forward.
Bradfield
What do you think the future holds for simulation training in Central Florida?
Reuter
Si—there is—there’s really no limit to what we can do with simulation and training in Central Florida. The fact that we have grown it, based on DODs demand, is very fortunate, but it is certainly not the limit to the application of this technology into other fields. We talk about transportation, we talk—modeling and simulating transportation, In order to understand where chokepoints are, to, uh, train people in dealing with different crises, to train emergency first responders, to train medical professionals. We’re already doing that at the VA [Veterans Health Administration] Sim[ulation] Learning[, Education and Research Network National Simulation] Center down here at Lake Nona, where [Lake Nona] Medical City is. We talk about construction simulation, So that we avoid, uh, costs of engineering changes and things like that, once we have gone into the construction phase, through just So many—education. There is so many applications of this simulation technology in—in moving forward. All of these industries.
Bradfield
What do you think are the most important achievements or contributions of the simulation projects to technology and to the future of technology?
Reuter
I think that the—the most important contribution was to give some other technologies an application that actually could affect an end-product. So if you think about digital media and graphics, alright? and some of the, um, some of the, uh—the stuff we’re doing with, uh—with extensive graphics—much—much higher definition graphics—There’s are a lot of different applications for those types of technologies. What we did was bring those technologies into, uh, a simulation, into creating a virtual environment, Such that we could add proficiency to people. We can do that in so many different ways, not only across DOD, but others, as well.
Bradfiels
When did you leave the Navy, and what did you do after you left?
Reuter
So I left the Navy in September of 2012, um, just—Not even two years ago now—And started my own consulting practice. I’ve also continued to work in the simulation industry and work with both companies in—in the simulation industry, as well as with folks like the [Metro Orlando] Economic Development Commission, and—and the Mayor’s office, and people that are moving forward this understanding of how simulation can grow and affect our economy. I was fortunate enough, in the very beginning of, uh—right after I retired, to assist in writing the strategic plan for modeling and simulation for Central Florida, and I can tell ya, more than anything we have a center of excellence. We need to grow and nurture it, even beyond the DOD, such that DOD just wants to be around it, because they recognize the kind of ecosystem we have here.
Bradfield
What values or characteristics of the Navy do you believe made an impression on your life?
Reuter
Well, he standard answer, of course, would be: honor, courage, and commitment, and they, uh—and those are our watchwords in the Navy, and the—the caliber of people that I have met—that I have lifelong friends, uh, that[sic] I’ve been 28 years in the Navy. You’ve met people in so many different stages of your career, and you continue to be in touch with them, and so, that sort of, uh—that’s sort of such a nurturing environment, and the fact that we were off and off of the aircraft carrier, and test flying up in Patuxent River, Maryland, Launching into some pretty hairy situations, uh, and—and came through it, and shared a beer at the end, uh, Just continues to nurture those relationships, and we’ve seen kids grow up together, and we’ve had a lot of fun, and so that’s been the most valuable piece for me.
Bradfield
How has the NTC Orlando base or Central Florida region changed since the time you spent there?
Reuter
In my case, of course, that would be a little NA [not applicable], But I can tell you that I’ve, uh—because I didn’t spend the time at NTC—But I can tell you that, um, you know, what has been done at [Lake] Baldwin Park is phenomenal. No question about it, it has definitely one of the better repurposing of a base environment that, uh, has taken place in our entire country, when it comes to BRACs, and how people have responded to Base Realignment and Closure. Uh, I think what’s unfortunate—and what was unfortunate for me and my family—was when we came here and saw that there was really no evidence that the Navy had been there, and so hence, the rationale and the driver behind the Lone Sailor Navy Memorial Project.
Bradfield
What do you think former naval personnel would like to see or be reminded of when they revisit—when they revisit the site of the base and the LS[M]P memorial?
Reuter
I think, more than anything, they want to imagine—re—reimagine, especially ones that were stationed there, what that Grinder was like, to recognize that that is hallowed ground, and to be able to tell their descendants about the time that they spent here and the pride that they took in getting through that. Whether it had been the nuke school or whether it was RTC [Recruit Training Center Orlando]—you know, because there were a lot of Navy entities here, at that time, and so, they—people need to understand what the Navy meant to Orlando during those days. It was a big Navy town. People started and—and made businesses grow, as a result of the Navy being here during those times, and so, to have—and we’ve got such a tremendous amount of support from people way out of town, That have roots here in Orlando based on their time here at RTC, and so somehow, we have got to—got to memorialize that, and give them a chance to re-experience that and pass that on down the generations.
Bradfield
Is there anything else you would like to share about your Navy experience?
Reuter
Well, I tell ya, I’m just—I was very blessed from the word go. Um, you know, you’re talking to a kid that—that grew up running on coral in Key West, And—often barefoot—had a dream to be an astronaut. Ended up going through the whole program, into Test Pilot School, finalist for NASA [National Aeronautics and Space Administration], ended up coming here into a place that I had no idea how special it was, and I—I’m grateful for the relationships that we have built, and I have built personally, as a Navy guy, with the folks at UCF with president [John C.] Hitt and a lot of others in this community, uh, that truly, truly are a partnership community, and, uh, it was the best way to—to leave the Navy. Understanding, that one, my command was in my good hands and the Navy was in good hands but also to come out into this tremendous community that[?], um, I’ve learned more in the last four years being in the Navy, than, uh, arguably then I learned in the la—in the ten prior, Uh, for sure.
Bradfield
When did you start your astronaut training?
Reuter
Uh, you—basically, what you do is you—as you—when you become a test pilot and you go through Test Pilot School, You are then, uh, afforded the opportunity to apply to NASA, and the thing—fortunately or unfortunately—when I was through that training and was applying for NASA, We had—had encountered a couple of really tough things. The [Space Shuttle] Challenger disaster, uh, certainly setback some—in 1986—se—or 1985[7]—setback some things pretty big, and then the [Space Shuttle] Columbia disaster was really the one that was tough. I mean, I had two buddies on the Columbia that day: uh, [William] “Willie” [Cameron] McCool and Dr. David [McDowell] Brown, uh, and that really slowed the manifest of space shuttle launches. So—so it was harder to get through the eye of the needle there, when it came to NASA. They weren’t taking as many people—all that kinda stuff. So I was a finalist three times. I—I’m very grateful for that, But at the end of the day, uh, somebody had other plans, and I have no problem with that, and I am very, very grateful that I got to come here.
Bradfield
Alright. Well, thank you very much.
Reuter
Absolutely. Thank you for the opportunity.
Van Zandt
Alright. Well, thank you for coming today. I’m so glad that you made it.
Sloane
My pleasure.
Van Zandt
Today is March 5th[, 2014] and I’m interviewing Mr. Richard Tobias Sloane, and he served in the United States Navy. Uh, we are doing this history project for the Lone Sailor Memorial [Project]. My name is [Carolyn] Carli Van Zandt, uh, and my cameraperson is Fernando Maldonado. We are interviewing Mr. Sloane as part of, uh, the Community Veteran History Project and Loan Sailor Memorial Project. Uh, recording here today, in the Education Building, Room 123—the conference room—in Orlando, Florida. Mr. Sloane, will you please begin by telling us a little bit about, uh, what branch of service you were in and your rank, uh, which you retired at?
Sloane
I was in the United States Navy. I retired as a Captain in [20]06 in the United States Navy. Started my service in 1964 at the Officer Candidate School in Newport, Rhode Island.
Van Zandt
Okay. Thank you. Uh, I’m going to get a little background information here. Can you tell us when you were born? Where you was born?
Sloane
I was born on March the 4th, 1943. Yesterday was my birthday, so this is very appropriate. I was born in, uh, the Borough of Queens, New York City, in the State of New York.
Van Zandt
Alright. What did your parents do for a living?
Sloane
My father was a, uh—a wholesale merchant in dry goods in New York, on the lower eastside of Manhattan. My mother was a homemaker, and later in her life, she was in retail, uh, store sales in New York—in Long Island, actually.
Van Zandt
Um, do you have brothers, sisters?
Sloane
I have two older brothers. Uh, my oldest brother was retired Navy Captain also. He attended the United States Naval Academy—Class of 1957, and, uh, the middle brother, um, attended Harvard University, and Harvard, uh, Business School.
Van Zandt
Alright. Uh, would you tell me a little about how, uh, your family life may have impacted your decision to, uh, enter the Navy?
Sloane
Well, there was no doubt in my mind that my oldest brother, who’s about seven years, uh, my senior, if you will, uh, attended the Naval Academy when I was young, uh, junior high school, uh, person, and watching him go through that academy for four years and then his, uh—the beginning of his military service definitely had an impact my decision to join the Navy. When I completed my studies at Boston University—and in 1964, the—the draft was still in effect—and the choices were to continue my education, at the time, or to be drafted, or to sign up for the service, uh, of my choice, and at the time, I picked that choice to be in the United States Navy. I didn’t realize, at the time, it would be a career choice, uh, but I enjoyed my early years in the service, such that I decided to stick around.
Van Zandt
Okay. So tell me more about, um, what impacted your decision to stick around.
Sloane
Well, I had a great first assignment. I came out of college at about 22 years old, uh—maybe even younger, at the time, and, uh, I was assigned to a ship called the USS Rockbridge—hull number APA-228, and that was a, uh—an amphibious troupe transport from the World War II era. Uh, the mission of the ship was to embark Marines—about 800 Marines—and associated cargo, and land on the shore in amphibious landings, and, uh, the, uh, manning of that ship—the Ward Room—if you will, the “Officer Car”—was made up with a lot of, uh, old timers, uh—warrants, mustangs as department heads. People who had been former enlisted[?], came up in the ranks, and they were sort of like—I don’t want to classify them as grandfatherly types—but they were very, uh, mature in there service, and, uh, the Commanding Officers of the ship when I was there, under which I had three Commanding Officers, were also senior Navy Captains who were on their way to major command and, uh, come[sic] out of aviation, and were going to head to larger ships, if you will. So again, they were very self-confident individuals, very accomplished people, and the younger officers, like myself, were all fresh, wet-behind-the-ears college kids, and so it was a very, very, um, engaging environment, um, a very learning environment, while, obviously, there’s a lot of pressure you to anything you do in that Navy environment.
It was such that you—you felt that you was learning, you felt like you were being mentored, uh, and I came away from that tour, uh, very, very, uh, personally fulfilled and—and feeling good about what I was doing. The sense of responsibility, that you got, which has always been, uh, something the Navy has played on for young beginners—that we’re going to give you, uh, tremendous responsibility that your peers, who were out working at Macy’s or selling insurance aren’t going to experience for a long, long time, and I found that to be true, because, uh, they give you things to do, and say, “Here’s a job. Go do it.” And they had enough faith in you to let you do it—to watch you close enough, so they wouldn’t let you mess up too bad. So it was a very, very good experience, as I look back on it over the years. I think that was principally what made me feel comfortable about staying in the Navy.
Van Zandt
You mentioned that you got this, uh, officer start before you did this first duty assignment through, um, Officer Candidate School, or OCS?
Sloane
Correct.
Van Zandt
Could you tell me a little bit about, um, what that experience is like?
Sloane
Well, talk about the shock of your life. You come out of a university, a—very, uh, loving home, uh, environment, as I grew up. Um, so you leave the university. Again, you’ve had a sense of what service life might be like, because of my brother’s experience, but obviously, you really don’t know exactly what you’re getting into, and I remember, at the time, there was only a ferry that crossed from the main land over to Newport, [inaudible] Island, unless you wanted to go all the way up and around, by Fall River[, Massachusetts] and Providence[, Rhode Island]. Today, they have a bridge, but I remember on that ferry, as I reported for duty to go to OCS, and looking out over the water and said, what have I done? [laughs]. That sort of thing, because I didn’t know what I was headed for, but it was also a very, uh, broadening and lightening experience, because most of my childhood and my college experience, for the most part, was very, um—I forget what the right word is—but very, uh contained.
Uh, it wasn’t broadening. It was broadening educationally and, again, growing up in New York, you have a broadened sense of what life could be like, but I had never, uh, been in an environment with people from the South, people from the West, people from all sorts of cultures, uh—that sort of thing, and now you’re thrown into a barracks environment, uh, which is not quite the same as a college dormitory or fraternity house. Um, you’re—you’re being asked to do things in a very regimented way, uh, being held very, very responsible and accountable for the most minute, uh, daily life, uh, activities, and so while it wasn’t a shock, uh, it was certainly different. and it is a crash course, so your—things that, uh, people in NROTC [Naval Reserve Officers Training Corps] programs or Academy programs are getting years and years of time to, uh, uh acculture[sic] to and learn. You’re getting a crash course. It’s not that—it wasn’t that challenging or difficult, but you certainly had pay attention, and again, aside from the academics, the military side, um—it was just an enlightening experience. Mostly, in—in the exposure to people of different cultures, uh, uh, than ever before.
Van Zandt
Graduation day.
Sloane
Wow. You know, the funny thing was, uh, I can’t remember exactly—the whole program was about four months, and, uh, at about maybe three weeks before you graduate, uh, you get your orders, and the way you get your orders is, uh, you’re in a company of 30 men—maybe your class had a couple hundred in it, but, um—so you’re in a company of 30 men, and you get a—a message, if you will, to report to the barracks chief or the company chief at the company headquarters, and he’s going to tell you where you’re going, and I’ll never forget, he—he said—he said “Sloane, you’re going to the USS Rockbridge, APA228.” and I said, “Chief, what’s that?” [laughs].
I had no idea, because with all that indoctrination, I don’t think we ever got down into the grass as to ship types, you know? it was mostly here’s how you, uh, get from point A to point B, here’s how you do this, a lot of PT [physical training], uh, this, that, and the other thing, a lot of naval history. Uh, but I—I remember to this day, he told me where I was going, I had no idea what kind of ship it was or anything of that nature. So, uh, that was a little before graduation, but graduation day, you’re filled with pride, you have your ensign stripe[?], uh, and your off on a real, real adventure, you know? You’re glad to be leaving that environment, but you’re full of apprehension, because now, you’re going to be really entering the workforce, sort of to speak.
Van Zandt
‘Kay. So you’re trained as a—a new ensign. What was your actual job as a new ensign?
Sloane
Well, my first job, again, was in the engineering department, and I was the [Repair] Division Officer for the repair division. The Division Officer—you’re in charge of a group of enlisted men and—with a specific function—and their job was metalsmith and woodworking, if you will, on this ship. So, um, they were doing all that type of work. It was a small group. Uh, I was sort of fortunate and respected, instead of being put immediately in charge of a large division, which might’ve been at least 30 men or 40 men. It was small, compact.
Again, a lot of good leadership, you know? It’s always the Chief Petty Officer in the Navy who really knows what’s going on and runs the Navy. and especially when you’re brand new, I mean, you—even with what little book-learning you got, you have not a great idea on the technical aspects of what the people are doing, you’re worried about all the different aspects of being able to stand the watch, drive a ship, um, do your daily duties, oversee the people who are working for you—or working with you, uh,—that sort of thing, and again, it was a lot of—I don’t want to use the word “old timers”—but Senior Chief Petty Officers, uh, who had a lot of experience and confidence in their work, um, middle-grade Petty Officers. It was a good bunch. It was the right place for me to go for a start, because I had a lot of support from below.
Van Zandt
Okay. Um, your early assignments—it sounds like you had a lot of on-the-job training, do you think it is because it was the Vietnam [War] era?
Sloane
Well, uh, if you’re talking about the first ship, absolutely, you know? I mean, uh, at the time, a lot of people were going over to Vietnam. Uh, my second tour duty was in Vietnam, and by the time I have spent about two and a half years on that ship, I had, uh, changed jobs on the ship. I was, uh, made gunnery officer on that ship, which was—gave me an opportunity to learn another aspect of, uh, ship ward responsibility and duties, and so again, when I, uh, finished up that tour in about two in a half years, uh, I was very confident. I had, uh, been promoted one grade from ensign to Lieutenant Junior grade. Very proud, and, uh, left that ship with a great deal of confidence, I think.
Van Zandt
Great. Um, can you tell me a little about your Vietnam experience?
Sloane
I [laughs]…
Van Zandt
As much as you can.
Sloane
Well, uh, absolutely. Um, Funny thing is, um: I—I mentioned earlier that I worked with these great people, you know? Uh, uh, as many warrants and LDOs [limited duty officers] who had maturity, a lot of experience, um, and how I got to Vietnam, I always thought was an interesting story. The Navy Bureau of Naval Personnel put out a newsletter about every month that they—a hard copy paper newsletter, and they went to every ship, and it—it really talked about what assignments were available to different people and different grade, what was happening in the personnel management area, um, and they came out with an article that said they were looking for Lieutenants Junior grade to be the Commanding Officers of LSTs, uh— “Landing Ship Tanks” —uh, to serve as mother ships for river patrol boats in Vietnam. So these LSTS would be at the mouths of the river, they would be the mother ship for 10 or 20 small river patrol boats, and they wanted Lieutenant JGs [Junior Grade] to be, uh, XOs. They wanted them to be XOs—Executive Officers, and I read that article, and, uh, my boss, at the time, was a Lieutenant, uh—LDO—an “old salt,” who I greatly admired, and he read that article. They were looking for Lieutenants to be Commanding Officers—Lieutenant JGs was to XOs to these LSTs, and he reads this article, and he says—he says, “Boy, I want to be a CO of a, LST.” And he said, “Rich, come be my XO.” You know, “We’ll go together.” I’ll—he’ll be the CO and I’ll be the XO of this LST.
Well, [clears throat] to go from being a Division Officer to an Executive Officer is highly unusual. Uh, but here is an opportunity, because it fit the mold, uh, of what they were looking for in Vietnam. I said, “Absolutely.” and I immediately wrote my detailer—the guy in Washington[, D.C.] who made these assignments—and—and, uh, I said, “I want to go be an XO on an LST, just like you wrote you needed, uh—uh, JGs to be XOs on LST. I want that job.” He wrote back—[clears throat] he said—corresponded back, “You know, you’re a little too junior,” because you’re in the JG billet for a number of years, uh—JG rank. Said, “You’re a little too junior, but we have lots of other jobs available for ya in Vietnam.” I said, “Okay.” I said, “But don’t give me a desk job. I want a job where the action is.” Next thing you know, I had a letters to a river patrol section that drove little plastic boats on the rivers of the Mekong Delta. So that’s how I got there.
Van Zandt
Wow.
Sloane
Yeah, I know, and then [laughs]—and then, my boss—I don’t think he ever got the job of CO. He did—he may have gotten an LST, but I don’t know that he had one off of Vietnam. Um, I spent a year. The tour that you got was a year. It was a small outfit—maybe a hundred people, if that. Uh, Most of them were assigned to run the boats, and the others were assigned as maintenance people. Uh, there was[sic], uh, two Lieutenants and three Lieutenants Junior grade, who made the officer structure. Then you had a number of Chief Petty Officers, and a host of, UH, other enlisted personnel, who manned the boats, and we spent a year patrolling the rivers of Vietnam.
Van Zandt
What impact do you think this experience had on you?
Sloane
Well, it had a tremendous impact. Um, you know, you sad[sic] in the sense that you were at war. You were certainly, uh, aware of that. Um, I think it was Winston [Leonard Spencer- ]Churchill who said something like, “There is nothing more exhilarating than being shot at and missed.”[1] Uh, and I had that experience. Um, uh, we’ve lost a number of people from our section to combat, while I was there, and I respect—I consider myself fortunate that I—that I, uh, um, didn’t have a harrowing[?] experience that—that cost me more than it did, so to speak. Um, uh, it was interesting to be in country, in—in that environment—to meet people of Vietnam, um, in many different, uh, ways, if you will. Um, and that’s about it.
Van Zandt
Do you think, um, your time through these, uh—the last two assignments that you just described help shape your leadership style?
Sloane
Uh, yeah, I think to some degree. That’s hard to say, um, how you developed, what—what it was that caused you to develop your leadership. I think more, uh—I don’t know. I only speak for myself, but I think more it was my upbringing than anything else. There’s all sorts of leaders—different people. Some lead in fear, some lead in—in different manners, and I just think it was the way that I was brought up that really, uh, set the foundation for my leadership style. I think a lot of your style is not so much developed in those early years, but further as you go along, you get more responsibility. Certainly there was a lot of responsibility from day one at different levels, and—and very significant responsibility, but my impression was: the further along you got, the more leadership experience you had. You had the opportunity to observe other leaders, you know? The—the common phrase, as well, eh, you know; “I’m not going to do it like he did it when I grow up.” That sort of thing. So, uh, how you developed it is—is a, in my opinion—for me, at least, is a combination of a lot of things: my personal upbringing, the experiences that I had as you climb that ladder can really shape.
Van Zandt
Thank you. What other, um, duty assignments did you take after your tour in Vietnam and prior to coming to NTC [Naval Training Center] Orlando?
Sloane
Right. I came back from Vietnam and I was, uh, selected to go what then called the “Navy Destroyers School,”[2] which was really a course to prepare you to be a department head on a destroyer-type, um, ship. Um, that was a six-month course in Newport, Rhode Island. I met my wife there, during that time period. I courted her, eh, in—in those years—that time frame. Um, Went to USS Garcia DE-1040. Home-ported out of Newport, Rhode Island, as the Weapons [Systems] Officer.
Um, from there, uh, I have to think back. I went to the USS—oh, excuse me. From there, I went to, uh, instructor duty at what was then the beginning of the Navy Surface Warfare Officers School and served as an instructor to ensigns, who were coming from their commissioning source before they were going to surface ships, and, uh, that was about three-year tour in Newport, and then I went to USS Milwaukee AOR-2—I think it was. Homeport in Norfolk, Virginia, a multiproduct ship, uh, stationed out of Norfolk, Virginia. Great tour of duty, great, uh, shipmates there. Again, uh, a tremendous learning experience as a department head for the deck department. Uh, A lot of responsibility, a lot of work there. From Milwaukee, we went to shore duty in Millington, Tennessee—a little bit north of Memphis, where the Navy had its, uh, training headquarters, and, uh, I served on, uh, the staff of, uh, Naval Education and Training [Command] —technical training—in Memphis—Millington.
Uh, from there, after a short one year tour, um, I went to Hawaii, uh, to be, uh, Executive Officer on the USS Hassayampa, an oiler in, uh, Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. Another great tour. Uh, I think the, uh, thing that made my career so gratifying was the great shipmates and the leaders that I worked with over the years on these ships. From Hawaii, came back to Norfolk and served on the staff of, uh, Commander Carrier Group 8. Went to sea on aircraft carriers as a Surface Warfare Advisor, if you will—surface op[eration]s officer. Completed that tour, working for a couple of flag officers, and from there, let’s see. Where’d we go? [U.S.] Naval War College, I believe. Tour[?] in Newport, Rhode Island, at the Naval War College. A very int—interesting time, and then went to, um, command the USS Santa Barbara, uh, AE-28, out of Charleston, South Carolina. Was on board there for about two in half years, in command of the Santa Barbara. Went from there to, uh, the Executive Officer of Service Schools[sic] Command. [Naval Station] Great Lakes—very large training activity, uh, up in Great Lakes, Illinois, just north of Chicago[, Illinois], and from there, I came to Orlando, Florida, in command of the Service School Command Activity here at the Naval Training Center Orlando. So it was all in route, but we got there.
Van Zandt
That’s quite a list
Sloane
Yeah, I’ll say.
Van Zandt
Alright. This one’s about your wife. You ready for this one?
Sloane
I’m sorry? Sure.
Van Zandt
This one’s about your wife. They say in the military, you great two for one. How did you do with the family, the military, and the traveling? How did she deal[?] with that?
Sloane
Well, we were very fortunate. I’ve always felt that way. Um, my wife was ready, willing, and able for the adventure. She was a Navy nurse actually, when I met her when she was in college, and she was, uh, attending on a—a little bit of a scholarship at the end of her college tour, where, in exchange for tuition assistance, she went in the Navy as a Navy nurse, and in those days, if you became pregnant, they mustered you out, and so she was in for a little over a year in an half, until she became pregnant without first child, and had to muster out. So she had a little taste of the Navy, besides from the fact of growing up—not going up—but going to school in Newport, Rhode Island, as she did, which is where I met her, uh, she was exposed to all the Navy activity that went on in Newport, Rhode Island, at the time.
Um, so we enjoyed the Navy. Nobody enjoys leaving your family for six months at a time and Nowadays, sailors are leaving there families for even longer, but, uh, typical six-month deployment then was not something you looked forward to from a family standpoint-of-view, but she—she understood that and, uh, was a great Navy wife. You know, they say, uh, a Navy wife’s the toughest job in the Navy, and I believe it 110 percent, and our children, uh, my wife, and I always—we moved around a lot, you know? And describing where I went, it was here, there. We came back a couple times, but it was never back to back tours in the same town, and unlike some, who said, “Oh, I don’t want to leave Norfolk,” or “I gotta stay in San Diego[, California].” We were always up for that adventure, and after a year or two went by, the kids were always saying, “Where are we going next?” That sort of thing. Got a little tougher when they got to the junior high/high school age, but up ‘til then, they were always ready, willing, and able to—“Let’s find a new place to go.” And, uh, that was pretty good. I’d always come home, after having spoken with the detailer, getting the word on where we were going. Uh, I’d call home and say, “Honey, Are you sitting down?” And she knew that was the signal [laughs] that we were going somewhere. Yep.
Van Zandt
Good. Um, well, what did you know about the region of Orlando and the military here?
Sloane
I’m sorry.
Van Zandt
What did you know about the region of Orlando?
Sloane
Well, I didn’t know anything about it expect that they had a mirror of activity of Great Lakes on a smaller scale. Uh, Navy training activity, smaller in numbers, but the mission was basically the same, and I lobbied to get that job of Commanding Officer. I say lobbied. You know, I—you talked to your detailer and say “Hey. I hear there’s a job opening in Orlando. Uh, it seems to fit. I’m training in education subspecialist. I’ve done the tour as Executive Officer here. Um, and I hear the Commanding Officer tour for the Service School Command is open there.” I was fortunate to get that assignment, and again, uh, the only, uh—the biggest impression was if the kids were a little, uh, anxious in moving in that point in time, because they were in junior high [school] and getting little more into socializing. Uh, When I told them that we’d probably have a pool at the house, that settled the deal [laughs]. “Let’s go.” They were ready to pack and move—move down here. So I didn’t know much about it. That was it. Um, that was it.
Van Zandt
How long were you here at NTC Orlando?
Sloane
Well, we got here in 1988, and I retired from that job in 1991. So…
Van Zandt
Okay.
Sloane
That was the tour.
Van Zandt
Um, what were your overall impressions of the recruits and their training, during that time down [inaudible] your time at the base?
Sloane
Oh, I thought it was terrific. You know, I was—really, there were three activities. You had the Recruit Training Center, You had the Nuclear Power School, and you had Service Schools Command. So, uh, while we did have some interaction in between all those activities, um, the sailors that—that I was seeing, uh, who were coming, from the most part, out of boot camp—uh, We did have some coming to advanced schools, uh, from the fleet, but the majority of them are coming right out of boot camp—uh, just top quality, you know?
People have said that the quality of our servicemen and women today are—is better than ever, and they have said it for years and years, and I firmly believe it. A lot of people who say, “Ah, it’s not like the old Navy,” and they talk about things like uniforms and discipline, which is always important, but the, uh, quality, the intellect, uh, the upbringing—if you will—uh, of the people that[sic] are coming into the service, I thought was terrific, and I saw that throughout my career. You know, you’re in that moving stream, so you don’t always see the difference, but when you think about it, and you stop and you think, and you say, Look at the quality of the Electronic Technicians School, who are going through Torpedoman [Mate] School—some of these highly technical courses—You have to really, you know, learn some significant stuff or hone their skills. Um, we had top-quality people.
Van Zandt
Alright. Um, Daily life for your, uh, Navy recruits and your Navy sailors, that[sic] are there training for the schools—what was it like?
Sloane
Well, again, the people that[sic] were in my school, for the most part, were brand new, coming from out of 8-12 weeks of Recruit Training Center. So you still had to be aware of their conduct more off the base than on the base. Remember, these are young people who been cooped up at recruit training, where they didn’t get any liberty for months on end, if you will. Now, they’ve been cut loose, so to speak. Uh, yes[?], you go to class, but you had your weekends off, sort of thing.
I think, on the whole, uh, and really across the board, we had very few discipline problems—things of that nature. Again, in a—in an organization that size, deal with that demographic, there will be individuals who really weren’t suited for the service, or who had a momentary lapse in judgment, shall we say, and so that’s typical in any large organization. I don’t think it—it’s not so visible in civilian—civilian life, you know? If some fella who’s working on the line in General Motors [Company] goes out and gets arrested for DUI [Driving Under the Influence], or something like that, General Motors doesn’t really hold him to task. Well, the military’s a little different on how it, uh, wants its people to represent the organization.
Van Zandt
Okay. Uh,couple of, uh, questions here, uh, for those who—who don’t know. Could you explain to us what the Grinder was?
Sloane
What the what?
Van Zandt
The Grinder was.
Sloane
Oh, the Grinder [laughs]. Well, I got very familiar with the Grinder at OCS, because the Grinder was where you—in OCS, you walked off punishment. I mean, it was the parade ground, and it was usually a paved a, uh—asphalt, uh, parade ground, uh, on which you’d have formal parades, but OCS—if you—if you didn’t make your bed right, or there was a dust bunny loose, or if your shoes weren’t shined, uh, when the other folks were going on liberty on Saturday, you were out there marching for two or three hours. Uh, And again, at—at boot camp, the Grinder was, again, the place where graduation was held, but again, uh, conduct infractions were marched off often times.
Van Zandt
Alright, and, um, the purpose of the USS Blue Jacket?
Sloane
Yeah, the Blue Jacket was, uh, a wooden replica, if you will, of a ship—a destroyer-type ship, and it had—internally, it had classrooms. Externally, it had fittings that you would find on, uh, a real ship. a life boat, or a whale boat, if you will, that could be lowered, raised, chalks, and bits, and lines, anchor chain, and halyards, and all the things that a sailor in—in the field of seamanship might encounter on a real ship, and so, uh, they can go on board that—that trainer, um, uh, and, uh, do the things that they would be asked to do out in the fleet, and they could also hold classes there. Uh, it was a—a fixture, if you will. A lot of people were sad to see it go.
Van Zandt
Okay. What kind of social life existed among the recruits on the base through the MWR—Morale, Welfare, and Recreation?
Sloane
Right. Uh, the interesting fact is: when I retired from the Navy in 1991, uh, the first position I took as a civilian was director of the USO [United Service Organization], here in Central Florida, Which, in a sense, was responsible a little bit for the MWR. I mean, the base had its own MWR organization, which was really the root of it. Uh, when I was on active duty, I personally took advantage of it. They had great gym, and weights, and facilities, and pool—all those sorts of things that you would want on the base. They had opportunities for sailors to buy tickets to local events and theme parks—uh, the typical Morale, Welfare and Rec, uh, support system. The USO was there also, primarily to support, uh, the families that came to see the recruits graduate every week at—at, uh, the Naval Training Center, but, uh, the MWR ran some great programs. They always were there. I remember the people who were—for the most part, many were retired military who were running the programs. They had a golf course, which was, uh, one of the premiere, I think, spots in town, to play golf for the retired Navy community and active duty when they were on liberty. There was also a smaller course down by, uh—by the [McCoy] Air Force Base, or was then a civilian airport. They had a small place down there. They had camping gear you could check out. Um, Just, really great support. I think that was an asset for this—this community—the Navy community.
Van Zandt
Okay. Um, did they have a local base newspaper?
Sloane
They did have a local base newspaper, and for the life of me, I’d have to think. I’d have to wake up at 3 in the morning to remember the name of it. I think it was The Navigator or something like that, and the fella named Jim Allen ran it, when I was there. He was sort of the—the editor. Uh, a great asset. I think it came out once a week, but Again, it covered the news, and all the good news, and, uh, that sort of thing. I—I got very familiar with the paper. I always wanted to make sure they—that if my activity had something to promote, it was in there, and it—they did a great job. It was a great asset.
Van Zandt
‘Kay. After basic training, what other types of schools did you guys offer here at NTC?
Sloane
Right. Well, Service School Command had four, uh, ratings, if you will—trade—Trade skills that they trained to. Uh, one was electronics technician, one was torpedoman, uh, one was quartermaster, and the other was signalman. So again we did that, and Nuclear Power School—they had two different, uh, schools, if you will: Nuclear Power A School, and I can’t for the life of me recall what the other division was called, but it was sort of like a lower division and an upper division, and their training, um—it went up to a lot of the skills and requirements of operating nuclear power plants. Uh, they had a lot of senior officers, who would go into command of nuclear powered ships, who went through that program. Very, very, uh, effective training program.
Van Zandt
Alright, alright[?]. Um, did you have any shore maintenance that was done here? Did anything get sent back to have work done here locally for work done…
Sloane
You know…
Van Zandt
From the ships?
Sloane
I don’t believe that we did. I think, um, most of any maintenance that went on was supporting, uh, what was happening at the base, uh—that sort of thing, but it wasn’t like equipment was coming back from the fleet
Van Zandt
Yeah[?].
Sloane
For maintenance.
Van Zand
Mmhmm.
Sloane
Because that was all done at the fleet site’s shore locations, if you will.
Van Zandt
What about airbases? Uh, ‘cause we have airbases here. Were we doing any work for the airbase maintenance?
Sloane
No, again, the Navy, um—a lot of that air training was done in Memphis, where a lot of the air raidings were done in Millington, if you will.
Van Zandt
Mmhmm.
Sloane
Again, um, if you’re talking about, like, [Naval Air Station] Jacksonville, which had a Naval Air Station up there and added their own—their facilities up there. So we really weren’t training aviation raidings.
Van Zandt
So our airbases here had been pretty much downgraded?
Sloane
Um…
Van Zandt
The old airbases?
Sloane
Well, Naval Air Station Sanford became the Orlando-Sanford…
Van Zandt
[inaudible]?
Sloane
Uh, International, uh, Airport. Um, uh, the Orlando International Airport was McCoy Air Force Base. Um, and, um, it’s always, uh, enjoyable when I drive down there and have a moment to scoot in by where the old [Boeing] B-52 [Stratofortress] is parked.[3] I think so many people in this community don’t know it’s there, haven’t had the opportunity to go down there where you can walk right up to it and kick the tires on this gigantic airplane. Up in, uh, Orlando-Sanford—which I’m sure the locals don’t know about—uh, there was a small civilian community, uh, that, uh decided to refurbish a [North American RA-5C] Vigilante, an A-5 aircraft, which is on display, uh, at the entrance to the airport up there. My wife and I had occasion to work with that committee and help, uh, put it in place, and, uh, that’s—that’s a sight, I’ll tell ya, and they’re working on refurbishing other aircraft for display up there.
Van Zandt
Great[?].
Sloane
Yeah.
Van Zandt
Now, I know we had Tactical Air Command and Army Air Force[s] Training Command here, at one time. Did you have an occasion to work on any joint exercises with them?
Sloane
No, that was way before my time.
Van Zandt
Okay.
Sloane
That was when they wore the leather helmets.
Van Zandt
[laughs].
Sloane
[laughs].
Van Zandt
They have—the do still have the simulator training and stuff that goes on here with the [U.S.] Joint Forces [Command]? Did you…
Sloane
Well, the, uh…
Van Zandt
Participate in any of that?
Sloane
The Navy—the, um, Naval Air Warfare Training Center [Systems Division]…[4]
Van Zandt
Mmhmm.
Sloane
Here in Orlando, is part of the Research Park activity, the military’s presence, uh, joint services are there, mostly contracting for, uh, training and simulation work. That’s why all of these defense contractors have set up shop here in Orlando, so that they can have close act[sic]—access to those folks, but there’s a lot of activity taking on—taking in that area, right here in Orlando. Very important to the community.
Van Zandt
Right. I know the, uh, base has tied to developing technology and simulations. Were you involved in any of the future simulation exercises that were currently…
Sloane
No, really…
Van Zandt
Conducted by the military?
Sloane
That all used to be located at the Naval Training Center, and, of course, as it expanded, uh, I remember—I can’t tell you the exact year, but it was when I was in service here that they built the [Luis] De Florez Center, here in the Research Park, and moved that operation out there, and grew it, and had just a tremendous expansion of not only that joint service activity out there, but again , the growth in the Research Park of defense contractors who have come here to Orlando, but I did not work directly with the training and simulation activities here.
Van Zandt
Okay. Thank you. Um, what’s the hardest thing you remember doing while you were, um, a Commander at the NTC?
Sloane
Pushups.
Van Zandt
Pushups? [laughs].
Sloane
[laughs] Yeah, well, you, um—I think “hardest” is a tough word. When you say “hardest,” uh, you know, I—I’ll change it over to what was the most, uh, difficult, uh, and that was the discipline. Um, Having to, uh, work with young people, who, again, had a lapse in—in judgment and came before you, because of some infraction—some minor, some not so minor, but it was always, I say, a little disappointment—maybe a little heartfelt, because it—in the back, you’ll say to yourself, uh, This youngster can do better. You’ve tried to provide them and your team to[?] guidance. Everybody makes a mistake, once in a while, and—and while there were those who, you know, were more than willing to atone for their sins, so to speak, and get back on track. Eh, there was the rare exception who was not the right person for the service and you had to ask them to leave, and, uh, I think—so when you say what was the “hardest,” it was that. You felt like to some degree, you failed. Now, some degree you—you can’t change some people—that sort of thing. So that was probably the most difficult, really.
Van Zandt
Alright. From the most difficult, when did you feel the most proud at NTC?
Sloane
Well, I think, um, every time you had a graduation, you know? Uh, every time you set sailor from your school out to the fleet, and you felt that they were—your team had prepared them, uh, very well to do the job, and that they would go out, and the people in fleet were going to look back and say, “Now, that sailor came from NTC Orlando. He or she was trained right.”
Van Zandt
Okay. Um, is there a particular story, um, from your time at the NTC that you’ll never forget?
Sloane
Oh, there’s a million of them. A million of them. We used to—we had a lot of fun. I mean, if you don’t have fun—that’s not to say that every day was a good day, uh, but if you don’t come away, uh, with a balance sheet that says you had more fun than not, you’re probably either not doing it right or don’t belong there and, uh,every year, uh, the, uh, Navy-Marine Corps Relief Society would hold a fund drive. Navy-Marine Corps Relief Society is just what it sounds. It’s a[sic] organization—civilian organization—that, uh, provides release services for men and women in the Navy and the Marines who have had hardship. Whether it’s a house fire, a death in the family, some serious illness, they—they’re there to support with finances and services, if[?] necessary.
So every year they had a fund drive Throughout the Navy, and our little piece at the Navy Training Center broke down the individual commands, and what we did, for the time that I was there, we had a little carnival, or a cookout, or whatever every year in support of that, and my wife and I would put on a skit every year. So we did about three skits, during the time I was there, and [laughs]—and, uh, let’s see if I can remember them in the right order. One year, we did, uh a sk—it wasn’t a skit, but it was a song called “Lydia and the Tattooed Lady,” which [Julius] “Groucho” [Henry] Marx made famous, and I dressed up as Lydia the Tattooed Lady. My wife dressed up as Groucho Marx. The Navy band came and played the music.
Van Zandt
[laughs].
Sloane
And out we went and did it for the crowd, and then one year, we did, uh, from, uh, South Pacific, uh—uh, the number “Honey Bun,” where—if you’re not familiar with it—this, um, senior sailor gets dressed up in a grass skirt and, um—and, um, uh, the Navy nurse dresses up as a sailor and sings about, uh, his girlfriend—his honey bun. So I dressed up in the grass skirt, and my wife dressed up in the sailor suit, and sang the song, and the Navy band played along, and then the last year we did, uh, “Get Me to the Church on Time” from My Fair Lady. So there I was in—in bridal regalia and she was, uh, dressed up as a, uh, groom going to the church, and we had great fun doing that. It made—let’s just say it made the base newspaper [laughs].
Van Zandt
That sounds wonderful.
Sloane
Yeah.
Van Zandt
Um, were there any other areas of the base that were of particular importance to you or the sailors?
Sloane
Well, one of things, you—you know, everything was important, whether it was the commissary or what have you, but I remember Lake Baldwin, you know, which Baldwin Park is named after, if you will, and so many of the, uh, people who had the opportunity would go out there and fish on Lake Baldwin, or be at one of the clubs, whether it was the enlisted club or officer’s club, which looked out on Lake Baldwin. It was sort of, um, just the center of things, not necessarily geographically, but, uh, when you drove home, you went by it. That sort of thing. It was always there. The sort of Place a lot of people, uh, looked forward to seeing, or recreating on, what have you. The Maple Hospital overlooked Lake Baldwin. The golf course was off of Lake Baldwin. Uh, that sort of thing I remember very much.
Van Zandt
Um, I know what you did when you left the Navy. You went to work for the USO. Do you recall the day your service ended?
Sloane
The day my service ended? Yeah. Well, you know, like most senior people in the service, they have some sort of retirement ceremony for you. Change of command is what it really was, where, um, uh—a good friend of mine, uh, Captain Harry Smith—U.S. Navy retired, still here in Central Florida, uh,—relieved me of that job, and that was a very emotional day. It may not have be the—my last day—maybe it was the last day. Uh, it was just, uh, a very emotional time for me, um, in concluding that service, and reflecting back on all the years of service, all the assignments, the family, uh that sort of thing. So that’s my reflection on my last day, if you will
Van Zandt
Have you kept in touch with people from the Navy?
Sloane
Oh, absolutely. Um, [laughs] there’s one warrant officer, uh, who served with me in Vietnam. He was the maintenance officer for the river section, and he, uh, sort of, uh, made it his business to stay in touch with, uh, those of us who were still around, and so, um, an email contact with him. As I said, Captain Smith, who relieved me of the Naval Training Service School Command job, um, was a good personal friend here. Dave Arms, retired Navy Captain, who was Commanding Officer of the [U.S.] Naval Reserve Center here in Orlando for a while, uh—still here, and, uh, we stay in touch. Um, you hear from some people every once in a while. One of the most poignant things I recall, uh, is: many, many, years went by, uh, after I had left Vietnam, and as I said, we lost a couple of people in our section, and I, over the years, received just a handful of correspondence from, uh, relatives of the people we lost, um, asking about them, and I responded to those people, and that was, in a way, staying in touch.
Van Zandt
Was that hard?
Sloane
Oh, it—well, it was hard on—it wasn’t hard. Uh, I was glad to hear from them and to be able to tell them that, uh, their relative had served honorably.
Van Zandt
Um, what values or characteristics do you believe that the Navy made, um—that instilled in you a great impression for the rest of your life?
Sloane
Well, I think discipline, and I—I mean that in the finest sense of the word. Organization, uh, good order, wanting to see things in the right place, um, making decisions, you know—right or wrong. Somebody’s gotta make that decision. Uh, working with others towards a common goal—that sort of thing.
Van Zandt
Your lasting legacy with the, um, NTC in Orlando and the Navy’s legacy, um, in Central Florida—what do you think, um, is the lasting legacy in Orlando?
Sloane
Well, I think the lasting legacy [sniffs] is a couple of different things. One is: people, like myself, who are here and remain here, who chose to stay for many different reasons. Uh, but we have a tremendous veterans’ population here. People who served here and came back—I see a lot of that up in Sanford. You know, people—there’s a lot of, um, people who don’t, uh, know about the Naval Air Station Sanford, and, uh—and I had the opportunity to meet a lot of them during the restoration of the vigilante aircraft. Boy, they came out of the woodwork, um, for that, and so that’s one, uh—one thing. I think what we’re doing at—at, um, Baldwin Park, with the Lone Sailor Memorial [Project] is a great, great thing. Uh, that will stand forever and, uh, when generations go by, people will still know that there was a Naval Training Center activity here, hundreds and thousands of young men and women passed through here in service to their nation. Um, you can’t do more than that.
Van Zandt
How do you think that the former Navy personnel would like to see or reminded, um, at the memorial?
Sloane
Well, I think that the Lone Sailor Memorial is a very, very appropriate, uh, recognition of what took place here over the years. I think, uh, there’s so much pride in—in veterans. I don’t care whether they did 20 years or a four-year hitch in the Navy. I have rarely spoken to an individual who served, especially in the Navy, uh, who didn’t come away saying “It was a good experience for me.” That sort of thing.
Van Zandt
Okay. Um, when we’re looking at, uh, designing the [Blue Jacket] Park, what do you think they would like to see at the park?
Sloane
Oh, nautical—Things of the nautical nature. I remember, when I [laughs] was, uh—had command at the Naval Training Center, and one of things, I think—my recollection of up at the Great Lakes is the—by—by virtue of the fact that it was a very, uh—I don’t want to use “old” in the wrong word—but it had been there for…
Van Zandt
[laughs].
Sloane
Since 1903,[5] I think. They had accumulated a lot of maybe history there. Whether it was an anchor, or a gun, or what have you, and so as you walked around that base, if you will, a [inaudible] you saw a lot of these things And You knew you were at a military facility or a naval facility, and when I came to Orlando, one of things I asked my, uh, team to do was to bring some of those Navy artifacts to—to our activity, and I’ll never forget, uh, we brought two big—what we call “24-inch searchlights”—no longer in use in the fleet, but these, uh—If you see the movies and you see the big arc lights things searching for planes in the sky, and I, uh—I charged one of our officers. Uh, I said, uh, you know, “Get in touch with the—the old shipyards, who[sic] have this stuff in excess, and let’s see if we can’t get one.” They did. They brought it and it was mounted in front of the school. they got a, uh, uh, four-barrel—I think it was a 4-barrell—a 40-millimeter gun mount brought it down and got it there, and that was—when the base was closed, I think they transferred it, to my recollection, to the, uh, Oviedo High School and JROTC [Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps] unit, and they may still be there. I haven’t been in the back lot for a while.
So I think—and I remember that, uh, the torpedo—and it was a very strong World War II torpedo CO—submarine community here in Orlando, and I remember over at, eh, um—I don’t—it wasn’t near the USO, but it was somewhere over there in that vicinity, near the RTC [Recruit Training Center Orlando]. They had got these old World War II torpedoes and put them on display, and so I think, eh, you know, any of those type materials that can be brought, appropriately placed in and around Blue Jacket Park, uh, would really be a great reminder of, uh, the service that these people gave to their country.
Van Zandt
Thank you.
Sloane
Mmhmm.
Van Zandt
You’ve exhausted my list. Is there anything else you’d like to share with me?
Sloane
Have a great Navy Day.
Van Zandt
Aw.
Sloane
[laughs].
Van Zandt
Thank you so much
Sloane
You’re welcome.
Van Zandt
I appreciate your time.
Sloane
My pleasure.
Van Zandt
I’m ready to stop recording.
[1] Correction: “There is nothing more exhilarating than to be shot at with no result.”
[2] Correction: Naval Destroyers School.
[3] B-52 Memorial Park.
[4] Correction: Naval Air Warfare Center Training Systems Division (NAWCTSD).
[5] Correction: Naval Station Great Lakes was approved in 1904 and dedicated in 1911.
Sims
Okay. Today is March 12th, 2014. I am interviewing Gordon Pierce and Ms. Trina [Pierce] Cothrin, uh, who served in the United States Navy. Uh, Mr. Pierce was an aviation metalsmith. Uh, Ms. Cothrin was an aviation maintenance administrator and yeoman. My name is [Roger] Jordan Sims. We are interviewing Mr., and, uh—Mr. Pierce and Ms. Cothrin as part of the UCF [University of Central Florida] Community Veterans History Project and as research for the creation of the Lone Sailor Memorial Project. We are recording this interview at the [Central Florida] Research Parkway in Orlando, Florida. Uh, Mr. Pierce, Ms. Cothrin, will you please start by telling us when and where you were born?
Pierce
I was born in Buffalo, New York, in 1930.
Cothrin
And I was born in Jacksonville, Florida, in 1958.
Sims
What did your parents do for a living?
Pierce
My parents worked for the State of New York. My father was, uh, in charge of the warehouse for all the supplies for a mental hospital, and my mother was a nurse.
Cothrin
And my father was, uh, a Master Chief Petty Officer in the United States Navy—Navy, and my mother was a full-time, uh, mom.
Sims
Uh, do you have any brothers and sisters?
Cothrin
I do. I have, uh, three brothers and one sister. Uh, my oldest brother, uh, Tommy Foreman—he was actually stationed at, uh, McCoy Air Force Base, Uh, when it was an Air Force base, and then, uh, my younger brother Bruce [Pierce] joined the Navy. He and I joined the Navy together on the same day. Uh, He was in boot camp before I did, but we, uh—our paths crossed while we were in boot—boot camp together, and then later, Uh, when I was stationed in San Diego[, California], he came to San Diego for school. Uh, and then, Uh, when my husband and I were stationed in Pensacola, he also was subsequently stationed in Pensa—Pensacola. Then I have a sister named Tina [Pierce] and a younger brother, James [Pierce]. I don’t think I said my brother’s name, who enlisted with me, and that’s Bruce.
Sims
Okay. Um, when did you both decide to join the Navy?
Cothrin
My brother and I?
Sims
Both you…
Cothrin
Okay.
Sims
And Mr. Pierce
Pierce
I joined the Navy in 1948, after I graduated from high school.
Cothrin
And, uh, my brother and I, uh, decided to join the Navy in October of 1979. Uh, uh, you know, he, uh—he had just finished high school, uh, the previous summer, and, uh, we both just decided to do it together. Um, I mean, I—I dunno what—is that enough?
Sims
Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
Cothrin
Okay. Good [laughs]. I don’t know how in depth you want me to go.
Sims
No, I just…
Cothrin
Okay.
Sims
Whatever—Whatever you’d like to tell us.
Pierce
[clears throat].
Sims
Um, where did you both attend boot camp?
Pierce
I attended boot camp in [Naval Station] Great Lakes, Illinois.
Cothrin
And I—here in Orlando, Florida.
Sims
What were you trained for, uh—for your career in the Navy?
Pierce
I was trained as an aviation metalsmith in Memphis, Tennessee, and I spent, uh, um, about three or four months there, waiting to go to school. then I went to nine weeks of school to be an aviation structural mechanic or aviation metalsmith.
Cothrin
And I, uh, was an aviation maintenance administrator. I went to school in, uh, Meridian, Mississippi,[1] uh, and that was a six-week self-paced course that I finished in a month.
Sims
Uh, when did you both begin your time at the Naval Training Center Orlando and how did that come about?
Pierce
I can’t remember.
Cothrin
Okay. I’ll talk to mine
Sims
Okay.
Cothrin
And then I’ll help him with his. Uh, I went—started boot camp in December of 1979 and I finished up in, I believe, it was March—February-March timeframe—of 1980, and subsequently went to San Diego, California, for a month, and then, uh, went to Meridian, Mississippi, and back to San Diego.
My father, uh, was stationed in, uh, NAS [Naval Air Station] Key West, and in 1970—’74, we—we moved to the Orlando area for a twilight tour. My fa—grandfather had passed away and, uh, we moved up here to, you know, be with my grandmother, right?
Pierce
Pretty much.
Cothrin
Okay.
Sims
Uh, what did you know about the region, uh, militarily or otherwise, before coming to Orlando?
Pierce
We learned quite a bit about it, because I had been stationed in Sanford, at the, uh, Naval Air Station [Sanford] there, for a number of years, and then I went down to Key West for shore duty, from that sea duty drill, and we came back up here, because we liked Central Florida.
Cothrin
I—yeah, I lived here. So [laughs]…
Sims
[laughs].
Cothrin
I knew the area.
Sims
Um, how long did you both spend at the Naval Training Center?
Cothrin
I only did the, uh—spent the time there during boot camp, and my father was there for—from ’70…
Pierce
[19]75 to ‘77.
Cothrin
Was it ’75? or ‘74?
Pierce
I think it was ‘75.
Cothrin
Okay.
Sims
Uh, when you first arrived, what were your first impressions of the area?
Pierce
Same old place [laughs].
Cothrin
[laughs] I was in high school, uh, so—I mean, it was okay [laughs].
Sims
What were your first days at the Naval Training Center like?
Pierce
They were spent primarily training out to become a Company Commander at the Recruit Training Center [Orlando], and, uh, we went to school I think for six weeks, and we learned how to give lectures, and how to march sailors around, and so on and so forth.
Cothrin
Well, for me, it was, you know [laughs]—that first day, you know, you’re getting all your gear and, uh, you’re learning how to be a sailor, and, uh—so it was interesting [laughs].
Sims
Uh, what were your primary responsibilities while at the Naval Training Center?
Pierce
I was the Correctional and Instructional Standards Division Officer, and we were, more or less, like a quality control unit. We would visit the various classrooms, and make sure the instructor was following the lesson plan, and completing all the things he had to do to get the point of the lesson across to the students.
Cothrin
And, for me, I was a recruit. I was there to learn.
Sims
Um, what was your overall impressions of the recruits and their training during your time at the base?
Pierce
I was impressed with the quality of all the young men and women that were brought into the Navy, and I thought the recruiters were doing a heck of a good job. There were very few people that[sic], uh, fell out, during my time as a Company Commander, and, uh, it was a great experience. I really enjoyed it.
Cothrin
Um, I, uh—you know, once you get past that first initial shock, you know, and you—you get into your training group, I think everything went well. I, you know—I, uh, ultimately enjoyed the time I spent there. Um…
Sims
What kind of social life existed among the recruits? How often were you allowed to go off base, and what places did you visit locally?
Cothrin
Uh, I don’t think we were allowed to go off base until our training was completed. Uh…
Pierce
Well, in the middle, wasn’t there a two-day weekend?
Cothrin
Uh, no, I think the only thing we got to do was go to the visitors’ center and y’all were allowed to come visit us. That’s where the parents and families come—came, at the time that I was there. I do believe.
Pierce
Okay, yeah. I remember that.
Cothrin
Okay, and, uh…
Pierce
That was about right.
Cothrin
Right, because we were—Bruce—Bruce went into basic training in November, and then I went in in December. So over the Thanksgiving holiday, he was there, and then, over the Christmas holidays, we were both there, and that’s where that one picture came from, where we’re all four there on those picnic—at those picnic benches.
Pierce
Okay.
Cothrin
Yeah.
Sims
How did your training experiences shape your relationships with the other recruits in your class?
Cothrin
It was a team-building experience. It—it, you know—it drew you together. Um, you know, taught you how to work together, uh, to accomplish goals.
Pierce
The—the whole criteria for the Recruit Training Com—Command, As far as recruits and Company Commanders were concern—concerned, was to build them into a team, and it was 180 people on a team.
Cothrin
It was a lot.
Pierce
Something like that, and, uh, that was the—the goal was drill into them that they had to work as a team. They would clean the barracks, they would march, and they would do all things together, you know, as a team, and it—it was a rewarding experience to see them develop.
Sims
Who did you both interact with on a daily basis?
Pierce
Uh, there were people who were, um—hey would come around and they would take the—the recruit Company Commander would take the recruits out on the Grinder, and he—there were observers, and they would mark them—see how the training was going, as far as marching and things like that were concerned, and they would come back and open ranks, and do an inspection, and—and it was all very, very formal and, uh—what else do you want?
Cothrin
Okay. So, uh, my daily interaction was, uh, with our, uh—our, uh—what do you call them? Our, uh…
Pierce
Company Commander.
Cothrin
Our Company Commanders, and our, you know—our CPO [Chief Petty Officer] and then our—of course, our, uh,—the other recruits, and then you also interacted with, uh, other instructors, depending on where you were at. Whether you were in weapons training, or some other safety training, or—but for the most part you were with your Company Commanders, you were learning how to fold your clothes, put away your clothes, um, and…
Pierce
Make your rack.
Cothrin
Make your bed a certain way. Uh, you were always having inspections. Uh, you know, how to wear your uniform, uh—let’s see. We went through firefighter training, and, you know, gas mask training—those kinds of things. They put you through your paces. You had your swim test, you know, uh, [inaudible], you had to float in the water for five minutes, uh, you know, you had to be able to, uh, swim from one end of the pool and back, you know? But, uh—so I don’t—I honestly don’t remember everything that we do. I do—I do remember the weapons training, the swim test, the marching, the folding of the clothes, the, you know—the bed inspections. You know, you’re getting up every day at 5 o’clock in the morning. Uh, you know, going to breakfast, lunch, and dinner. You march there, you march back. You know, they always had somebody up there, you know, letting you know the instructions. You had 20 minutes and 20 minutes only to, you know, get through the line, and eat your meal, and back to wherever it was we met to, you know, march back to wherever we were going next.
Sims
Uh, what do you remember about the instructors at the base? And what were your impressions of them?
Cothrin
[inaudible].
Pierce
I remember them all as being very professional, and they were t—their goal was to set an example for the recruits, [inaudible] in dress and...
Cothrin
Mannerisms.
Pierce
Mannerisms, and conformity to the rules and regulations. Look sharp, you know? Haircuts, and so on and so forth.
Cothrin
I would agree with him. Uh, the two, uh, Company Commanders that I had were, you know—they were there to set the example, as well as enforce the rules, and, you know, guide us—guide us through the process, and, you know, test us more, test us less, you know, push us harder where we needed to be pushed.
Pierce
And answer all the questions [laughs].
Cothrin
Yes [laughs].
Sims
What was the hardest thing you remember doing at the Naval Training Center?
Cothrin
Um…
Pierce
For me, it was learning how to stand in front of a class of 180 people and teach them how to do something, you know? And, uh, I wasn’t really a formal instructor. I was a hands-on aircraft mechanic, you know, and I was taken from that environment and put in front of all these people, and, uh, it was a very different environment for me, so it was kind of a struggle at the beginning, but I worked my way into it, and I ended up liking it very much.
Cothrin
I would say for me, uh—not necessarily the hardest thing, but, you know—you get there and you don’t know what to expect, and so then it’s learning to, uh, achieve the things you need to achieve in the time you have to do it, and So, you’re learning at a very rapid pace, uh, and, you know, uh—eh, so as—I don’t remember anything being [sighs] so terribly difficult. it was just a matter of learning it.
Sims
Uh, what was the moment you felt most proud at the Naval Training Center?
Pierce
Graduation.
Cothrin
I would agree.
Pierce
When your company pass and review, in front of the reviewing officers and the assembled guests and so on and so forth, it was kind of a proud moment.
Cothrin
It marked the end of the training cycle also [laughs]. You were done [laughs].
Sims
Can you tell me a story of a time at the Naval Training Center that you will never forget?
Pierce
Not really [laughs].
Sims
Not really [laughs].
Cothrin
[laughs] Well, I remember the swim test part. Just floating there, and the sky’s blue, and you’re watching airplanes, and they, uh—and their, uh—whatever you call the smoke thing that goes by, and, you know, that’s what I was doing. Sitting there, you know—floating there, thinking about—I was like, Okay, as they ticked off the minutes, you know, to complete the test, but, uh—I mean, other than that, um, uh, I, you know—the comradery that, you know—that you had. I mean, once we graduated, we all dispersed, you know, a hundred different ways. Um, I think only one person that I went through boot camp with, uh, went to San Diego—I mean, he went to [Naval Air Station] North Island. So, um…
Sims
How would you describe to USS Blue Jacket, and what was its function?
Pierce
It was used to familiarize the, uh, recruits with, uh, how confined the living spaces were aboard ship and various aspects of shipboard living, and, uh, it was very helpful. It was a—it was a very, very, very large training aid that was very useful in getting your point across.
Cothrin
Didn’t we do battle station drills and those kinds of things on it, as well? I…
Pierce
I didn’t.
Cothrin
I, uh—yeah. I, you know—I don’t—don’t really remember. I—I think we did some sort of drills on the ship. Uh, It wasn’t, eh—it was more than just familiarization with a ship. They took us on board. We did things on it. I just don’t remember what.
Sims
Uh, what was the official purpose of the Grinder and what was its significance to you and the recruits?
Pierce
The Grinder was a very large piece of ground, where as many as nine different companies could get out there and march around, and not—not get involved with one another, if the Company Commander was paying attention [laughs].
Cothrin
[laughs].
Pierce
But it was a big area, and, uh, it was very hot in the summertime and kind of cool in the winter time, but, um, it worked very well.
Cothrin
Cold and wet. I—I mean, because we were out their marching in the cold and it was raining usually, but, uh, it was—it was all about marching out there. I think we did PT [physical training] out there.
Pierce
It was also used as a—if somebody was goofing off within the company, you’d tell them to run around the—the Grinder a couple of times as a—it worked off their exuberance, you know?
Cothrin
[laughs].
Sims
Uh, what other types of training went on at the base?
Cothrin
The—the [Naval] Nuclear Power Training Command was there. Uh…
Pierce
You mean other facilities? Or other things that we taught?
Sims
Well, you have the basic boot camp recruit training.
Pierce
Right.
Sims
And then what other types of training would also go on, like the Nuclear [Power] School?
Cothrin
Like the NTC part of it? Do you remember what else was out there, other than nuclear training?
Pierce
No.
Cothrin
I don’t know. It wasn’t…
Pierce
But there was instructor training…
Cothrin
Yeah[?].
Pierce
And peripheral things like that, to where—to support the Recruit Training Command.
Sims
Uh, what were other areas on the base that were of particular importance to you or the recruits, and why were these places important?
Pierce
Well, there was the Firefighting School, which was very important, because, uh, firefighting aboard ship is a[sic] immediate thing that has to be done and done well, and quickly, and thoroughly. I—I was always impressed with that, and there was the gunnery range.
Cothrin
[inaudible]. We went somewhere.
Pierce
They had a…
Cothrin
Yeah.
Pierce
As I remember here, it was indoors, but in Great Lakes, where I went through boot camp, it was outside.
Cothrin
I believe it was indoors. I agree with you there.
Pierce
Yeah.
Cothrin
Yeah, I mean, I agree with him. The firefighting, you know—you go through the firefighting, uh, class, and one of the films they, of course, show you is the fire on the [USS] Forrestal, and that’s something that I think is, you know—they carry though. They still—I think they probably still use that as a training aid today. Uh…
Pierce
Probably.
Cothrin
Yeah, I remember the—what’s the oxygen—the liquid oxygen. I remember, Uh—I mean, that was pretty gross, and they showed you a film, uh, with regards to liquid oxygen and what can happen to you if, you know…
Pierce
If it spills on you.
Cothrin
Yeah.
Pierce
It will freeze you.
Cothrin
Right.
Pierce
Very cold.
Cothrin
So, uh—okay [laughs].
Sims
Uh, what was graduation like?
Cothrin
Um, for me, it was, you know, uh, the marching, and the passing in review, and you know, the, uh—the end of boot camp, and then the beginning of the next, uh, stage of my career in the Navy. Uh, so it, you know—it was being excited and being sad that you’re leaving, you know, the people that you got to know, and then excited to move on to the next thing, and Pride, you know, that you passed. That you got through it.
Pierce
For me, it was saying “Hello” to a lot of different people, where every recruit wanted to introduce you to their parents, to their loved ones, or whatever, and it was, uh, an emotional day.
Sims
Uh, what did you do for the Navy upon leaving Naval Training Center Orlando? Did you receive specialized training after your time at Naval Training Center Orlando? And if so, where did that take place?
Cothrin
Um, I did not go to A School upon graduation of boot camp. I went directly to a squadron. I went to VC-7 [Tallyhoers] at, uh, NAS Miramar[, San Diego], California. It was an [Douglas] A-4 [Skyhawk] training squadron. Uh, and when that squadron decommissioned, I think the, uh—not even—less than a year—maybe ten months later, I then went to A School in Meridian, Mississippi, and then, uh, went back to, uh, VF-124 [Fighter Squadron 124] an [Grumman] F-14 [Tomcat] squadron at, uh, NAS Miramar, and...
Sims
Were either of you ever in active warzone?
Pierce
What?
Cothrin
An active warzone. Have you ever been in an active warzone?
Pierce
I was over in Vietnam on the line for about three years.
Sims
Um, can you tell me about arriving in the warzone, and what impact that experience had on you?
Pierce
Well, you work 12 hours on duty and 12 hours off duty, and that just went on continuously. There were no weekends. There were nothing—you spent 30 days on the line, and then you’d go for a week in Olongapo[, Zambales] in the Philippines for liberty, and, um, it was pretty arduous and, uh emotional at times, because you’d lose airplanes and so on and so forth.
Sims
Uh, did you receive any medals or citations during that time?
Pierce
I received, um—what’s the orange and green one?
Cothrin
It’s a Navy Commendation Medal.
Pierce
Yeah, and now, the green and white one is…
Cothrin
Navy Achievement.
Pierce
Navy Achievement Medal.
Cothrin
Okay.
Pierce
Yeah, I received both of those and a whole bunch of service awards from various places of—of the world: Korea, Vietnam, Mediterranean Occupation Medal.
Cothrin
North Atlantic? [inaudible]. Not—I don’t know if it was North Atlantic, but you were up there too.
Pierce
And I crossed the Arctic Circle a number of times, but I didn’t—they didn’t give a ribbon for that. Crossed the Equator two or three times—maybe four, to get back [laughs].
Cothrin
For me, I was mobilized, uh, in support of Operation Enduring Freedom. Uh, spent two years at CENTCOM [United States Central Command]. Um, after that, eight months, uh, I spent in Qatar. Uh, it was a, uh, very interesting and rewarding experience, the two years that I spent, uh, mobilized. Uh, it was interesting to go to Qatar. Uh, I—that’s the second country I had ever been to, outside the United States. The first was Mexico [laughs]—Tijuana[, Baja California, Mexico]. So, uh, it—it was interesting seeing the culture, uh, seeing the area, and then, uh, you know, like my dad said, it was, uh, generally a 15-16-hour workday, but, uh, it was a good experience.
Sims
Uh, do you both recall the day your service ended? and what was that like?
Cothrin
Uh, I —yes. So I got out of the Navy, uh, October 1, 1982—‘82 or ’81 [laughs]. Okay. ’82, because my son was born in November of ‘82. So, uh, it was a sad experience for me. I wasn’t ready to get out of the Navy. So, uh, once my husband and I transferred to Pensacola, it took six months, and then I found a billet in a [U.S. Naval] Reserve unit, and then I spent the rest of my career, uh, in Reserve units. Starting out in aviation units, and into intel[ligence] units. Um, you know, and through the course of my, uh, 29 years in the—in the Reserve, you know—active and Reserve program, uh, you know, did my two years mobilization at CENTCOM, and I, uh, had worked at, uh, Joint Task Force Forge[?] [inaudible]. I did [inaudible], uh—active duty down there with them, when we were stationed down there. So, I mean, I had a very full and interesting career. So, for you, Dad, you retired in, uh, 1977.
Pierce
Right. I think it was September 1st, and, uh—just another day, to me. No ceremony. I didn’t have a ceremony or anything like that.
Sims
Uh, what did you do after you left the Navy?
Pierce
I got a job in, uh, Sanford with a machine shop company, and they made, Uh, what’s called a “fax machine” now, but this was the very beginning, and it was a thing that went around in circles, and it printed letters, and so on and so forth. There was no vocal, but it was all—you could transmit a—a letter on this circular thing, and it went through the air somehow, and got there and…
Cothrin
Was that QWIP [Technologies]?
Pierce
Yeah, QWIP.
Cothrin
QWIP, and it was a company that…
Pierce
Went through the telephone. You had to call up, get ahold of the machine, and then you put the thing in there, and then you turn the machine on, and it would transmit the piece of paper. Very archaic, really.
Cothrin
[laughs].
Pierce
Compared to today.
Cothrin
And, for me, um, I worked two jobs. So I had my Reserve career and then I had—I worked for the Army since 1993. Uh, and that’s when I started working full-time again.
Sims
Have either of you kept in touch with anyone from the Naval Training Center?
Pierce
I haven’t.
Cothrin
No, I—me neither. No.
Sims
What values or characteristics of the Navy do you believe made an impression on your life?
Pierce
The discipline, the organization, and the orientation of doing your—having to plan out everything and having to work your way through it. It was an organizational—a very strict class in organizational responsibilities, and —get ‘er done.
Cothrin
Right. Uh, you know, I would have to say—I would have to go to, you know, uh, something similar. Uh…
Pierce
[clears throat].
Cothrin
And say, I mean, the caliber of people that were there that you worked with, uh, the things that you did. Uh, I mean, it was just a—it was a great experience. Um, I mean, I, you know, would recommend it to other people. to young folks that—if they don’t really, you know, have it figured out—what it is that they want to do, uh—spend four years in the Navy and—or any service—and, uh, see the world a little bit, and, uh, meet people from all walks of life. It’s a big melting pot. You learn a lot.
Pierce
You grow up in a hurry.
Sims
How has, uh, Central Florida changed since the time you spent here?
Cothrin
A lot [laughs]. A lot.
Pierce
Probably expanded three- or four-fold, population-wise. We—we retired in ‘77.
Cothrin
You retired in ‘77. Yes.
Pierce
So we were transferred here in ’75, I think, from Key West, Florida, and, uh, from the day I retired ‘til today, the place has—has really grown, and the population has…
Cothrin
Probably [inaudible].
Pierce
Doubled—tripled, probably
Cothrin
Quadrupled, probably.
Pierce
Yeah.
Cothrin
I think they can remember when, you know—I can remember my mom and dad talking about when [Florida State Road] 436 was a dirt road.
Pierce
Right.
Cothrin
Okay[?].
Pierce
Yeah.
Cothrin
Uh…
Pierce
It only went part way down to the airport and then it was a dirt road.
Cothrin
My grandparents—I don’t know when my grandparents moved here. Was it in the ‘50s or the ‘60s that they retired down here?
Pierce
I think in the late ‘50s.
Cothrin
The late 50s. They came down, um, from New York. So as kids, you know, we were coming—wherever we lived—because I grew up here in Florida, Uh, there was only one period of time when he was stationed outside of Florida, from the time I was born. So we’ve lived—I was born in Jacksonville. We’ve lived in Pensacola, Key West, and Central Florida. So we’ve done the gambit. So Florida—I’m a Floridian [laughs].
Pierce
The squadron I was in was stationed in Sanford, but it deployed on a carrier that was home-ported in San Diego. So it would take three days to airlift the squadron out, and then three days to bring us back. When you got home finally, it was—it was, uh—I can’t think of the word I want to say. You had to move a lot of gear around to get your job done when, uh—when you were aboard ship.
Cothrin
It was a logistics, uh, exercise.
Pierce
Yes.
Sims
What do you think is the lasting legacy of the Naval Training Center and the Navy in general in the Central Florida region?
Pierce
I really don’t know. I’m sure it has a[sic] historical impact, but other than that, I really don’t know.
Cothrin
As far as today, the impact of the base, because it—it closed in the ‘80s? ‘90s? I don’t remember when it closed. Uh, But I mean—I think it had, uh, an impact while it was here. Uh, and it—and it had an impact for some time after it closed. Um, certainly, you know, you go there and look at Baldwin Park, you know, there’s no real sign that the Naval Training Center or Recruit Training Command, uh, ever existed. I mean, there’s little, little things, and I think that’s the purpose of the whole, uh, Lone Sailor, uh, Memorial [Project]—is—is to try to bring back something here in the Orlando area to remind folks that, hey, at one point in time, there was this, uh, Naval Training Center here and Recruit Training Command, and bring back some of that heritage.
Pierce
One of the things that I remember is: on Friday, up over the weekends, maybe half a dozen companies would get liberty and the seet[sic]—and the streets were just lined with sailors, and it would—it was just amazing, and then all of a sudden, they were gone, you know? And that—that was a visual impact I’m sure for a lot of these civilians around here.
Sims
What do you think former naval personnel would like to see or be reminded of when they visit the site of the base and the Lone Sailor Memorial?
Pierce
They would probably like to take their parents or guests around and point out various things that were helpful in their training, and, uh, show the Grinder and so on and so forth, where we marched, and the various [inaudible] buildings where they went to school.
Cothrin
Well[?], they’re not there anymore though [laughs].
Pierce
Well, that’s true.
Cothrin
Yeah, I mean, I guess part of the Grinder is still there. They use it as a—there—there’s[sic], uh, park-like areas in part of it. , uh, I mean, the Blue Jacket is gone. It would have been nice if something like that had stayed, but it didn’t. Uh, and it—and I’m sure it had to do with upkeep, as well. Um, you know…
Pierce
The Blue Jacket was a model ship, right?
Cothrin
Yes.
Pierce
Okay. It was just—it wasn’t very big. It was about half as big as a destroyer, maybe a little bit smaller, but it, uh—it served as a good training aid. It was a good visual thing for the recruits to see their first ship or something like that [clears throat].
Sims
Is there anything you would like to share about your naval experience?
Pierce
I would recommend it for everybody. It was a wonderful experience, as far as I’m concerned. You can’t imagine how precise everything is—the way they start flying in the morning and end up in the evening, after dark generally. Sometimes they flying around the clock, but an aircraft carrier is one of the busiest places in the world, but every hour—hour and a half—you’re launching or recovering airplanes. That goes on all day long. Sometimes 24 hours a day, depending on what kind of a mission or training exercise you’re in. There’s always—around the carrier, there’s usually a cruiser and at least [coughs] five or six destroyers, and the destroyers act as plane guards, in case one of the planes goes into the water. They rescue the pilot, if they get there before the helicopter and so on and so forth, but, uh, before the helicopter, they were primarily the—the guy that pulled the man out of the water that was in there, but, uh, I wouldn’t trade it.
Cothrin
What was the question again? [laughs].
Sims
[laughs].
Pierce
[coughs].
Sims
If there was just anything else you’d like to share about your experience in the Navy.
Cothrin
Uh…
Pierce
[coughs].
Cothrin
Again, like my father said, I would recommend it. Uh, certainly for, you know—it’s just a broadening experience for anybody. Uh, and there’s no better way to have a job, travel, and kind of—you’re taken care of. Uh, So I had an incredible career for, uh, nearly 30 years. I retired in, uh, 2009. I went into the Navy in 1979. So, um, I loved it, um, like[?] my dad.
Sims
Well, thank you for talking with me today and for sharing, uh, your experiences with me.
Pierce
Thank you.
Cothrin
Thank you.
Pierce
[clears throat].
[1] Naval Air Station Meridian.
Wiggins
Today’s date is Thursday, March 6th, 2014. I am interviewing Martha “Connie” Reuter, who served in the United States Navy. She served on active duty between May 1984 and April 1988, and as a [Naval] Reserve between October 1988 and October 2005. My name is Leanne Wiggins. I am interviewing Ms. Reuter as part of the UCF Community Veterans History Project and as research for the creation of the Lone Sailor Memorial Project. We are recording this interview at the University of Central Florida in Orlando, Florida. Ms. Reuter, will you please start us off by telling us when and where you were born?
Reuter
I was born in Abingdon, Virginia. March 20th, 1964.
Wiggins
And what did your parents do for a living?
Reuter
Um, my mom was a stay-at-home mom, and, um, my dad was a, um, pastor—Lutheran minister.
Wiggins
And do you have any brothers or sisters?
Reuter
And, uh, one older brother.
Wiggins
Growing up, where did you go to school?
Reuter
Um, we moved, uh, a couple of times during my childhood. Um, started out, uh, around Shenandoah, Virginia. Moved to Martinsville, Virginia. I spent most of my, uh, ah, years in, uh, Martinsville, and then, um, moved to, uh, Newton, North Carolina, for, uh, my junior and senior year of high school.
Wiggins
And what did you do before entering the Navy?
Reuter
Uh, I was, uh, uh, trying to figure out what I was going to do with my life [laughs]. So I was working, um, at a Hardee’s. I had gone to school for retail merchandising. Um, decided, uh, not to go that route. Was trying to figure out what to do, and, uh, one of my friends came through and said “Connie, let’s join the Navy.” And we were going to go in on the [Navy] Buddy [Enlistment] Program. And, uh, I went to a recruiter about three times. The fourth time I said, uh, “If I’m going to go, I’m going to go now.” and, uh, I signed on the Delayed Entry Program in February, and I left for boot camp in May. My friend did not go [laughs]. So it was just me.
Wiggins
So why did you choose the Navy, as opposed to other branches of the military?
Reuter
As, uh—basically, I had no clue. I just, uh—like I said, when she came through and said, “I got a[sic] idea. Let’s join the Navy,”—’cause her boyfriend had joined, and, um—uh, was like, “Great.”
I have, uh—some of my relatives, um, are—have also been in the military. My cousin, who was in the Air Force, my uncle, uh, in the Army, and then my grandfather was in the Army. But it wasn’t, uh—I didn’t live near any big military bases, so I really didn’t—didn’t know. So I said—when she decided—when she said, “Let’s join the Navy,” I— Alright.” [laughs].
Wiggins
How did, uh, your family members feel about you joining the Navy?
Reuter
Uh, I think they were—they were definitely, uh, proud. Um, shocked, because I did all that and, uh, going to the recruiter and everything, um, without telling them [laughs]. So, um, after I had already join[sic], came home and told them.
Wiggins
So where did you attend boot camp?
Reuter
Uh, eh, Orlando, Florida.
Wiggins
And were you trained to do—what were you trained to do for your career in the Navy?
Reuter
Uh, while I was [inaudible] —I came in non-designated, so I didn’t decide ahead of time what career I wanted to do in the Navy. So I, uh—after, uh, boot camp, I went to Airman Apprenticeship Training School. And, um, from there got my, um, first duty station, talked to the Navy career counselor, and decided from there.
Wiggins
When did you begin your training at NTC [Naval Training Center] Orlando?
Reuter
Um, May 7th, 1984.
Wiggins
Before coming to NTC Orlando, what did you know about the region, militarily or otherwise?
Reuter
Nothing, uh, military-wise. And, of course, for Orlando, all you basically hear about is, uh, Walt Disney World. I had, a, uh—a [sic] uncle and cousins, who lived here. And so we had come down, um, once to visit them, and we went to Walt Disney World when I was a kid. And, um, so that’s all I knew. I had no idea about the military.
Wiggins
How long were you at NTC Orlando?
Reuter
Uh, I did the, uh, eight weeks of boot camp. And then, I believe Airman Apprenticeship Training was an additional four weeks. And, um, so then I left, all total, ‘round September.
Wiggins
When you first arrived, what was your first impression of the base or the area?
Reuter
Uh, well, when I first arrived, it was at night. Um, I was 20 years old, and that was my, uh, first time being on a commercial airplane. So, um, the MEPs [Military Entrance Processing] station was in Charlotte, North Carolina. So I flew from Charlotte to Orlando, as my first time on a commercial airplane. And, uh, it was at night. Uh, don’t remember much [laughs], okay?
Uh, I know we had a bus, came right to the base, um, uh, everybody—when I came into the barracks, most of everybody was in their bunks already going to sleep. Um, I remember getting in my bunk, and then, uh, realizing I had to go to the bathroom. Scared to ask if I could get up and go to the bathroom, But I did, [laughs] and, uh—um, so then, I went back to sleep and woke up the next morning and that’s when it all began.
Wiggins
So what were your first days of service like?
Reuter
Pretty, um, uh, regimented—routine. Start dinner routine, start, uh, issuing, um, uniforms. uh, even though I had, uh, cut my hair short before I came to Orlando for boot camp, um, because I thought that, uh, you know, If I’m going to have my hair short, I want to be able to kind of, you know—well, do it myself. [laughs] Well, it didn’t matter. You still went to the barbershop. They still cut some more off, even though it was already short. So I had, uh, um, short hair for the first time in my life [laughs]. And, um, uh, like I said, everything was pretty much, uh, just routine. You did as you were told. You stood where they told you to stand, listen to instructions, and everything. And if you listened well, you got along great.
Wiggins
So what was it like to be a woman at NTC Orlando?
Reuter
Uh, it—it really didn’t, uh, bother me at all being a woman at NTC Orlando. Um, I didn’t have any problems at boot camp. Um, I know some of my bunkmates, uh, uh, did. Um, and it wasn’t necessarily—I don’t think—because of a woman. It’s just a—a different—it’s an adjustment.
Um, but, uh, uh, we—the boys were still around. Uh, we had—went to classes with them. Um, saw them in the—at chow halls. All that. But we didn’t march with them, didn’t have them in the barracks, uh, and on—or anything. But, um, I remember we called them “trees.” and you were not allowed to look at the “trees” or anything.
But, um, one of the best pieces of advice that I got before I left for boot camp, was my friend’s boyfriend, who was in the Navy already. He said “When they first ask you to raise your hand—to be on either the color guard, drill team, flag guard—raise your hand.” So I was like, “Okay.” So as soon as my company commanders, you know, asked that question, I raised my hand and they picked me and it was the best advice I had ever gotten. Uh, I had a really good time being on the drill team. Uh, you were on the drill team with the boys, so therefore you could talk to them [laughs] and meet them. Um, uh, I got out of a lot of other inspections, a lot of the PT [physical training], um, all that, because we had to go to drill practice. And so again, that was the best advice I could have ever gotten.
Wiggins
So besides your responsibilities with the drill team, what were—did you have any other primary responsibilities?
Reuter
No. That was it in boot camp. just, uh, keep everything in shipshape, um, make up your bunk correctly, have your clothes folded correctly, um, clean the barracks some, uh, go to classes, and, uh, that was about it.
Wiggins
So what was your overall impression of the recruits and their training during your time at the base?
Reuter
I felt it was very good. Um, uh, as—I felt comfortable. Um, I felt like I could trust them. Um, I said I didn’t have any problems. Um, when they yelled—you know, the company commanders yelled or—or whatever, but, you know, it didn’t bother me. I just let it roll—roll off my back. You know, do what they say. That’s it. Um, it, uh, definitely taught me a lot. Um, for, uh—everybody should go through it [laughs].
Wiggins
So who did you interact with on a daily basis?
Reuter
It was mainly my, um—the bunkmates that were closest to me. So, um, I was in the lower bunk, so, uh, my shipmate, who was in the top bunk, uh, we became very good friends. And the shipmate pretty much right next to me, we became really good friends. And, um, uh, other than that there was, uh, one of—one of my, um, boot camp, uh, ladies that were[sic]—that was in my company, she got stationed at the same place I did for the first duty station. So, uh, when I went to my first duty station, I already knew one person. So that was great. Um, and then a couple years later, while I was there, uh, one of, um—another girl that I was in, uh—I was in boot camp with, got stationed there, and so we became really good friends after that.
Wiggins
Who were your instructors, and what were they like?
Reuter
We had, uh, the company commanders, um, was[sic] Hines[sp] and Merritt[sp] —um, Petty Officer Hines and Petty Officer Merritt. Um, of course, I do not know their first name, [laughs], because you don’t have first names in boot camp. Uh, everything is by your last name. But, um, again, like I said, when they—they would, you know, yell if they had to.
Um, I remember one time, you know, they asked you about what a gig line is, and I had no idea. And, um, you know, they would go around and ask everybody, and none of us knew, but we learned awfully quick[sic] what a gig line was. And [laughs] that’s something you’ll never forget.
Wiggins
What was a gig line?
Reuter
That is the line on your shirt that overlaps, it lines up with your belt buckle all the way down. That’s the gig line.
Wiggins
What was the hardest thing that you remember doing at NTC?
Reuter
[sigh] Oh, gosh. Um, I don’t know about the hardest. There was, uh, a couple—uh, we did go in the gas chamber, and, uh, so it was kind of scary. Um, and, uh, you know, you all go in as a group. They tell you to take your mask off. You start feeling the, uh, um, burn. And, uh, uh, [laughs] I remember one of our girls in the company, way in the back, was like “Help!” And she had such a high pitched voice and everybody started laughing. And, um, so then, um, they—by that time, they finally—they opened the door and you all came out. But, um, you experience that.
You experienced, um, putting out a fire and, uh, putting out a fire on a ship with a big hose and working together as a team. Um, you experienced, uh, swimming, and how to survive in swimming and using your clothes as floatation devices.
Um, that’s the first time I’d ever shot a gun, uh, I think it was a, uh, .45 [caliber handgun]. And, um—so that was an experience. Um, so I can’t really say anything was really hard. I was already fairly physically fit before I went in. um, and I could—I listened well and took instructions well.
Wiggins
What was a moment that you felt the most proud?
Reuter
Oh, gosh. Um, graduation [laughs].
Wiggins
What was graduation like?
Reuter
Um, uh, my parents had come down, and, um, my uncle had come over. And, uh, uh, it was a good time. And we went also went on a Liberty Call. And, um, I went with my parents, and—and, uh, couple of my, um, uh, friends from boot camp. I went to SeaWorld [Orlando], and, uh—yeah.
Wiggins
Can you tell me a story of a time at NTC Orlando that you’ll never forget?
Reuter
[laughs] Oh, let’s see. There’s several. Um, oh [laughs], I’ll never forget—um, after boot camp, I was at a—I went to, uh, Airman Apprenticeship Training School, which was, uh, another additional four weeks. And during that time, we could have, uh, Liberty Call at around 16:00 to 16:30— somewhere around there. Never failed. Orlando, during that time frame, would, uh—there would always be a huge thunderstorm downpour, uh, right at Liberty Call. So right when you were getting ready to go out on the [laughs] town or whatever, um, and have a little bit of your own time, they would have to cancel Liberty Call. And it would only last about an hour, and then Liberty was open. So it [laughs] —never failed. And still to this day [laughs] [sniffs].
Wiggins
How would you describe the USS Blue Jacket and its function?
Reuter
Um, I think, uh, back then, it was, uh, a very good replica of a Navy ship. And, uh, I said that is where we went to learn how to, uh, fight a fire on a ship, to work as a team. um, and, uh, even though, during my Navy career [laughs], uh, I never went out to sea—I was on the land on shore—but, uh, I’m sure, uh, it was—it was a good replica for the real thing.
Wiggins
What was the official purpose of the Grinder, and what was its significance to you and the recruits?
Reuter
The Grinder was, uh, where you marched and you marched [laughs]. And, uh, you also did the PT out there. Uh, the Grinder was a large, um—uh, what was it? Concrete or asphalt area. Um, big rectangle that you just marched up and down. And, uh, so you learned how to march in a straight line, you learned how to, uh, take the corners while you’re marching, and, um, you spend a lot of time out on the Grinder [laughs].
Wiggins
What other trainings went on at the base?
Reuter
Um, well, again, as I said, I went to Airman Apprenticeship Training School, and, um—but there were also, um, Nuclear Power School out there, and—um, which of course, while you’re in boot camp, you don’t know that anything else is going on around you, except for your little area. But, um, uh, during Airman Apprenticeship Training School, you could, uh, get to know a little bit more of the base. And, uh, you could go to the, uh—also during boot camp and afterwards, go to the chapel on Sundays, and—and, uh, so you get to learn a little bit more.
Wiggins
Were there any other areas on base that were of particular importance to you?
Reuter
Um, besides the chapel? It was, uh, the chapel [laughs]. And, um, another thing I will also never forget is: when you march up, getting ready to go into the chow hall, there is, um, uh, a recruit up there who has this big spiel about, uh, “You have 20 minutes, and 20 minutes only to eat your fine Navy chow.” and, uh, I know that there’s more, but, uh, [laughs] that’s the line that I remember. And, uh, you just went into the chow hall, got your food, ate. There were always huge, um, bottles of peanut butter on the tables, because peanut butter, uh, was more sustaining, and to—to help you keep full, if you needed to or whatever. But, uh, uh, you would always put peanut butter on, on the, uh, uh, chocolate bars, the ice cream, or make peanut butter sandwiches, or something, but there was always a huge jar of peanut butter.
Wiggins
[sniffs] So what did it feel like to graduate and finally put that hat on?
Reuter
[laughs] This was, uh, um, my cover that I got from, uh, boot camp. This was issued to me during boot camp. Uh, one of the, uh, things that I realize now is that, uh, we, back then, wrote our full Social Security [Insurance] number in, uh—in our, some of our gear. Uh, so I still have [laughs] my full Social Security number, uh, written in here. But, uh, it definitely has all of the stains from, uh, many years of—of wear.
Um, I was also issued, uh, “birth control glasses.”[1] So I still have my “birth control glasses,” that, uh—and you could not wear contacts. You had to wear these “birth control glasses” during boot camp, and after, um, boot camp, during Apprenticeship Training School, then I could, uh, wear my contacts. But, uh, these were lovely [laughs], But hey. Everybody that needed glasses had them. Uh, we all, for the most part, looked the same.
This is, uh, still my, uh, uh, tie that was issued in boot camp. I still have, uh, my initials, um, engraved—or, uh, inked on there. That was another one of the things that as soon as you were issued your gear, you all, uh, went in a line and, uh, with the stencil, and then, uh, stenciled all your gear. So, uh, this was the first time that I was issued.
And, um, this was, uh, the picture of my mom and dad at, uh, graduation. And this was just a picture that they took of me in, uh, front of the sign. And then this was just my, uh, first, uh, photograph.
Wiggins
Did you want to share anything else of the memor—memorabilia you brought?
Reuter
Um, well, later on, uh, when, I got to my first duty station, and finally decided what I wanted to be in the Navy, that is when I decided to, uh, uh, be a Photographer’s Mate. And, uh—so I went and, um, during that time, the Photographer’s Mate rating was open, meaning that they needed people to be photographers in the Navy, so I was like, “I can take pictures.” So I decided to [laughs] —to go that route.
And, um, this is my, um, rating badge. Uh, that is, uh, no longer, uh, used in the Navy. This, uh, was, uh, the Photographer’s Mate rating badge, it’s an IFKA[?]. And the wings represent, uh, that we were—that it was the air-dealt rating. So um, now the Navy has combined three ratings into one. So, uh. Now there are no more Photographer’s Mates. They have a new rating.[2]
Wiggins
So tell me a bit more about your experience as a Photographer’s Mate.
Reuter
Again, that was, uh, very, um, thrilling, and, a lot of fun. You were up front, uh, of everything, because you had to get the picture. And, um, you also got to tell, uh, some of the officers, uh, what to do, where to stand, and, uh, you know, what to do. So that was always fun [laughs]. And, uh, um, there was always some, some—some, uh, great opportunities.
I, uh, had to take pictures of, um, a wheels-up landing. I was stationed in, uh, Corpus Christi, Texas. And, um, a [Beechcraft] T-34 [Mentor] was coming in for a landing, and the wheels would not come down. The landing gear would not come down. So, um, we—me and another Photographer Mate went out to shoot, um, pictures of this wheels-up landing to document it. And I was shooting the stills, and he was shooting the video. But, uh, at first, I was nervous and—camera was shaking while I was trying to take the pictures [laughs] but, uh, you know, we had the fire trucks there, and they just came right in on the belly of the plane—skid right in—and, uh, they were fine. Thank goodness.
But, um, uh, I also went to take pictures of, uh, Naval Station Ingleside[, Texas], which is no longer there already [laughs]. The Navy’s already sold it back to Corpus Christi. But, uh, uh, we took the groundpreak[sic]—groundbreaking pictures of, um, Naval Station Ingleside.
And, uh, so it’s just, um—it was always cool to be a part of history—document history. Um, uh, document, uh, happy occasions, lots of, uh, changes of command ceremonies, lots of promotion ceremonies, retirement ceremonies.
Um, and uh, document some not-so-good things. You also were on duty, um, and when it was your duty day, and you got called, I had, um, three different suicide attempts. So you had to go and document, um, the scene and what had happened. And, uh, one guy had tried to slit his wrist, so you’re documenting all the blood and all that. And, uh, um, another person had jumped out a second story window. Um, so you have to go, you know, just document. And, uh, so, you never knew what was going to happen. What you were going to be called to do. So it was—it was exciting.
Wiggins
Do you recall the day that your active service ended?
Reuter
Um, well, I was on active duty for four years. And, um, as I said, I was stationed in Corpus Christi, Texas, and that was my first duty station. And from there, uh, I had met my future husband, so I decided—we got engaged, and I decided to, um, get out of the Navy, uh, so we could get married.
And, uh, from there, I stayed in the Reserves. So, um, the remaining of my time, I, uh, did the, you know, uh, weekend-a-month, two weeks a year Reserve drill. Uh, still as a Photographer’s Mate. And, uh, that worked out well, because I was able to do my Reserve duty anywhere that, uh, he was stationed, because he was still active duty Navy.
Wiggins
So when you were not doing your Reserve duties, what were you doing otherwise?
Reuter
Well, I was very lucky to be able to, uh—once we had our first child, to stay at home. And, uh, so, uh, the majority of my time was as a stay-at-home mother. Uh, we ended up, uh, with three children, so [laughs], uh—and fairly close together, so that…
[vacuum cleaner turns on]
Reuter
Kept me busy. But, um, uh, we, uh—I also would do, uh, other different things, uh, besides my Reserve time, to, uh, just stay active as far as, uh, either within their school, being a substitute teacher, going and helping out and volunteering. Um, uh, doing, uh—did the realtor for a couple of years, did pampered chef for a couple of years. So anything that I did, I made sure that my schedule, I could still be home.
Wiggins
What values or characteristics of the Navy do you believe made an impression on your life?
Reuter
Hm, um, [sighs] I think I had, um, a lot of good values, um, already instilled in me from my parents, uh, that the Navy and the military, um, uh, you know, uh, possesses, and that’s, uh, good character, uh, teamwork. There’s the honor, courage, and commitment. Um, uh, I always felt that, uh—I said, “If they were your shipmate, uh, and you were in trouble, they would be there to help.” um, so just—just a little bit more of, of continuing of what my parents had already told me.
Wiggins
What was the most valuable lesson that you learned, um, in your time in the Navy?
Reuter
Hm, um, as I said, just be a—be a team player. It’s—it’s not about you. It’s getting the job done, keeping everybody safe, um, keeping the country safe, um, being a team player.
[vacuum cleaner turns off]
Wiggins
How has NTC Orlando base or the Central Florida region changed since the time you originally spent here?
Reuter
Oh, goodness. A lot. Uh, when we—my family and my husband—me and my husband and—and our three kids—um, moved back to Orlando, because, uh, he was being stationed here at NAWCTSD [Naval Air Warfare Center Training System Division], um, I was like, you know, [laughs] “Let’s go see where, uh, NTC Orlando was.” Where was I? Where did I go to boot camp? Uh, I knew that the base had been closed, but—I don’t know. I guess I was expecting to see something, um, and there was really nothing. Nothing there to show that the Navy had been here, as far as a, um, boot camp. And like, you know—like we’ve talked about, with the, um—the Grinder, the—the big replica of the, you know, the Blue Jacket ship, uh, um, there was nothing. Uh, the chapel [laughs]—and nothing and so I was very surprised.
And, uh, I said, I was, um, very pleased to, uh, find a group who was trying to do something about that. And, um, so since that time, I have, uh—me and my husband have volunteered to be on the, uh, committee, to get, uh, something to show where NTC/RTC [Recruit Training Center] was. um, so that people can not only come to take their kids to Disney World or SeaWorld or, um, Universal Studios [Orlando], uh, but if they went to boot camp, they can bring them to an area, uh, that they can show their kids where they were during that time frame. I, um—when I retired, the Lone Sailor [Memorial Project] statue was the, um, one thing that I wanted as a retirement gift, and so I’m very proud.
Wiggins
So when they come back to visit the memorial, what do you think Naval personnel would like to see?
Reuter
Um, I think they would like to see, uh, um, pictures of, uh, the way—to—to show the way it used to be—what was really there. Because, you know, now it’s a Baldwin Park community. um, so it’s just really, I feel, interesting to see, um, old pictures of—of when we were there, Um, maybe a little write up of the history, um, and, um, of course, not only a—a male Lone Sailor, but a, hopefully, one day, we get a female Sailor statue there also, to represent, um, the men and women who went to boot camp there.
Wiggins
What do you think is the lasting legacy of the NTC Orlando or the Navy to the Central Florida region?
Reuter
Uh, just that it—it, uh—it’s a lot of good people. It, uh, helped a lot of people grow up, and become, uh, great, um, adults—giving adults—back to their communities and country, um, sacrificing what you have to have sacrifice for the good of all.
Wiggins
Is there anything else that you would like to share about your Navy experience?
Reuter
Um, it was definitely, uh, a good, good experience. Lots of, uh, memories. Lots of opportunities. Lots of opportunities to travel to different places, um, meet different people, uh, lots of—build lots of lasting friendships, um, see and do many different things.
Uh, during one of my two weeks of active duty, I was in New York City for Fleet Week, and during that time was when they, um, brought out the last beam for, uh, the World Trade Center. and I was manning the rails as they brought out the last beam, and I was all the way down—the bottom of World Trade Center—and, uh, at Ground Zero. And, uh, to just be down there and look up—amazing.
Wiggins
Well, I want to thank you very much for your time and for giving this interview, and for all of the wonderful experiences that you have shared with me.
Reuter
Thank you.
Garcia
Today is February 26th, 2014. I am interviewing Frank Boffi, who served in the United States Navy. He served in World War II and ended with a rank of Machinist MAT 1st class. With me is Mark...
Barnes
Mark Barnes.
Garcia
Mark Barnes. We are interviewing Mr. Boffi as part of the University of Central Florida Community Veterans History Project and as research for the creation of a Lone Sailor Memorial Project. We are recording this interview at UCF in Orlando, Florida. Mr. Boffi, will you please start by—start us off by telling us when and where you were born?
Boffi
Cranston, Rhode Island, which is about nine miles north of, uh Downtown Providence[, Rhode Island]. I was born May 18th, 1922, and I’m the, uh, youngest of seven boys. We were a family of 10 children. Raised during the Great Depression which is—was hell on life—on Earth, really. So we had to get adjusted to that— not having anything.
I’ve been lecturing five high schools here locally about World War II and the kids don’t believe that, during the Depression, we had no allowance, we had nothing, and, uh—but anyway, I survived the Depression. I survived three battles in the Pacif—the, uh, Mediterranean [Sea], and the one battle in the Pacific [Theater]. So I consider myself a survivor.
Garcia
What did your parents do for a living?
Boffi
They were, uh, country folks. My dad worked—was a laborer, because in Italy they lived out on farms, and came over here had really no skills. and, um, he worked for—under the WPA systems, which was the Works Progress Administration—back in the [19]30s, uh, one of the programs set by President [Franklin Delano] Roosevelt. So he was just a, uh, shovel—a reg[?] guy. He was working on the roads and the parks and stuff that the city was rocking[?] for him. That sort of thing.
Garcia
And when did you, uh, enter the Navy?
Boffi
I, uh, entered—first of all, I think it’s important to hear that we[1] got engaged December 6th, 1941, which was the night before the Pearl Harbor attack. And, um, it’s so strange: these high schools that I’ve been lecturing—that’s the one thing those kids remember when I go back the next year after that. Yeah. I ask what they remember about World War II and they all say the same thing, “You and your wife got engaged the night before Pearl Harbor.”
We got—I got married at, uh, 20 years old—August 1st, 1942. And on September 15th, 1942, I went down and enlisted in the Navy, because I did not want to be drafted into the Army. I was told that the Navy, you had three square a day and clean bedding, as long as you washed it. But the Army guys had to sleep in mud and foxholes and I didn’t want that kind of stuff.
But, um, yeah. We were—I—my wife and I were married 71 years this past August 1st, and then she died October 7th, [inaudible] 2014. But, uh, it was a tough life, but we hacked it through[?]. It was just two young kids. She was 22 and I was 20, but we made it and it was a real sacrifice. We only had the one son who has—now has two children and six great, uh—six grandchildren. I have six great-grandchildren.
My son is a graduate of the University of Nebraska, where he has a master’s [degree] out of the university. Um, He started in engineering, but he changed it over to psychology. And I asked him why he changed his major[?] over the subject—his degree in, and he said one of his friends dove out of the six—I think he said it was a six-story window. And He was on LSD [lysergic acid diethylamide] and he just dove out the window. And that was when my son decided to change his career and help the kids that were—that were on drugs. He was—he wound up being an administrator of six counties in east Nebraska—in charge of the drug program. But Now he’s a—he was a regional manager for Xerox [Corporation], and they moved him to Washington, D.C. area. And now he’s, uh—has his own business—he and his wife—as general resources. Um, he’s chief operating officer for AmeriCom. It’s a company that deals with the government, and their biggest account is the Air Force. And he is in, uh, San Antonio[, Texas] about every four or five weeks, because we have bases there. What else you want?
Garcia
Now, uh, you said you were—got engaged the day before Pearl Harbor. What was your reaction to the attack on Pearl Harbor?
Boffi
It was kind of a shock, but We, uh, I think we were prepared for it. The—the way things were going, we knew that some war was going to come out of it. It was so strange: in Downtown Providence—I’m not sure if you’re familiar with it—they had docks there. And, uh, my buddy and I—we used to go down there. we used to walk to Providence maybe two days a week, and there were all these old rust buckets loading up with all the, um, scrap iron, and we sold millions and millions of tons of scrap iron to Japan. And then—then four or five months, the war broke out, they were firing it right back at us.
Garcia
Why did you join the Navy?
Boffi
Like I told you, I didn’t like—I didn’t like being in a foxhole, and I didn’t want to join the Army. I had one brother in the Army and two—the one in the Navy, he joined long after I did. But, uh, my other two brothers were [Boeing] B17 [Flying Fortress] bombers.
And, uh, I—I just liked the water. I thought I would be better off in the Navy. Might as well do something I like, than[?] rather[?]—I had to go no matter what. I didn’t want to be drafted in the Army.
Garcia
Where did you attend boot camp?
Boffi
I, uh, went to boot camp in Newport, Rhode Island. I reported there October 15th, 1942 and got in out March 1943. And they sent me to [inaudible] Institute in Boston[, Massachusetts], which is an engineering school. And I came out of there with a, uh—with a second class machinist MAT training.
It was so strange that, in those days, uh—that—that the commander of the school posted a notice one day saying anybody in the top five percentile for academics would be allowed the privilege of applying for Officer’s[sic] Candidate School. So I applied for it, and that’s all it says. And I walked up, and commander Cavinar[sp] was sitting at his desk, and I came in the door about that distance away, and he kind of looked up and says, “Frank, you don’t qualify.” I said, “But I’m in the top three percentile academically.” He said, “Yeah. Academically you can qualify, but you’re married.” They would not give you a rate[?] then—a commission [inaudible]. You had to be married first though—no. You—you couldn’t get married until after you got your commission. that’s what it was. So they refused to give me a commission.
And, uh, then later on when I worked[?] the ship got sunk, I was supposed to make chief June 1st, 1945. And we got sunk on the 11th of May of 1945. That’s when I wound up in a hospital bed for the next four and a half months. So they wouldn’t give me the chief’s rating, because you had to be with an active unit.
Now, today even, if you lost both legs, you’re still in the military, you get your rating or whatever. So, um, when they held its 90th birthday, the chiefs down here at NAWC [Naval Air Warfare Center] made me an honorary, um, chief with them. So I have a [U.S.] DOD [Department of Defense] certificate stating that I’m part of the chiefs’ at NAWCTSD in Orlando. They—they kind of glorified it and they gave me the rate. I asked them about it—OCS [Officer Candidate School] now, but they wouldn’t allow me [clears throat].
Garcia
What was, uh, your first days of your service like?
Boffi
Pardon?
Garcia
What was the first day of your service like? First days.
Boffi
Well, the—the first couple of days were interesting, because we had some boys from the Midwest area[?] they were Arkansans. We had to sleep on hammocks. In those days, in boot camp. And the hammock was strung up to the ceiling and you had what you called the” jack stand.” That’s a bar, and you would jump up and grab it and you’d pull your body up. And if you knew how to do it, you would open your hammock line with one leg and then pop your butt in and then—otherwise, you would just roll off the other side. and that’s what was happening to this one boy from Arkansas. He couldn’t—he’d get in one side and roll out the other one. He couldn’t get himself—so one night, the chief told a couple of us to “Go help that kid get in that hammock.” And, Uh, We raised the sides up, but in the morning he tried to get out and he’d fall out all the time. He was a character. He never did adjust to a hammock. We kept our hammocks as part of our sea bag. And I’ve used it two or three times at sea out here in the Atlantic [Ocean]. When we had a hurricane or real bad weather, the ship would go rocking and rolling too much. My buddy and I would go out and string up our hammock underneath the gun tug, where it would be dry, and sleep in the hammocks. We just—like a baby rocking in a crib.
But, um, yeah. The first ship was on was a 1918—it was commissioned in 1918—a World War I destroyer. It was an old four stacker, and we called them “rust buckets.” But Then [clears throat]—and we made the three invasions of, um, [inaudible] Sicily, Salerno, Italy, and, um—what was the last one? One of the—one—I forget the name of that one. Oh, [inaudible]. My memory is failing me, but we made the two—three invasions in Sa—Sicily, Anzio Beach, Salerno—Anzio Beach. That’s what it is. Anzio Beach, Salerno, and, um, you know, Sicily.
We operated out of Oran[, Algeria], North Africa. That was kind of a[sic], uh, interesting—now that we have so much Muslim, uh, religion spreading out all over the world. There was a place in Oran that was called Medina. It was a, uh, sacred city with great big columns and you were not allowed in there unless you were a, um, Muslim religion[sic]. And my buddy and I didn’t believe it, so we started in there one day, and we get about three feet through the gates, all these Arabs started getting up from sitting on the sidewalk. And, um, we were lucky. I think I—I’m alive today, because the shore patrol was right there. They drive their Jeep in about three feet into the Medina, and told us to get in and they brought us back [inaudible].
And they told us that one of my friends, uh, Bill Suey[sp], came from Cranston, Rhode Island—.he and I went through school together. He went through Medina one night and came back in just his underwear—just his skivvies. He was lucky he got his life, but they took everything he had—his uniform, cigarettes, and—and they stripped him. They didn’t want us there. Basically, that’s what it was. We were invading their country and—and they—they didn’t realize that we were there protecting them from the Germans. I mean, they were losing their country to the Germans till we got there. And, um, so we saved them, but they’re still Muslim and that scares me till today—what’s happening in some of these cities. [clears throat] It’s a damn shame that we have to go through stuff, but I see it happening right now.
Garcia
Now, uh, as an Italian [American], how did it feel invading Italy?
Boffi
How did I feel being in Italy?
Garcia
Yeah.
Boffi
It was, uh, a good feeling. Because I was—my mom and my eldest brother came over in 1904. And this was 19—well, I didn’t get there until during the war, but I stayed in the Navy and I went back in 1950 with the ship I was on. And I got to meet my, uh, dad’s two brothers, and my cousins, and my mom’s half-sister.
And her—this one half-sister has three—three daughters. And they came to my uncle’s house and the eldest—eldest daughter was, um, just—just under 18. She was a senior in—in high school—equivalent to our schedule setup. And, um, she was so excited that I was talking to an Italian in English and all that. And she kept patting my knee, and the moms kept telling them, “Don’t touch him. he’s an American sailor.” She said, “But he’s my cousin.” She said, “I don’t care if he’s your brother. Don’t lo—don’t touch him. He’s an American sailor.” But that was the kind of reputation we had all over the world. The—the sailors were people [coughs] [clears throat].
And I had one other cousin, who had a close friend of his who was a [Papal] Swiss Guard in the Vatican. So I got to, uh, go places in the Vatican that the general public had never been to. And we got way down deep into the catacombs,[2] where they used to bury all the priests and the bishops and whatever. There—it was kind of an eerie feeling being down there with all these caskets on both sides. And these guys didn’t realize that they’ve been buried there for a hundred years or longer. That was something that the general public never saw, but I got to see it because of my cousin’s—Tom’s—friend was a Swiss Guard. He allowed me to go down there [clears throat].
Garcia
Now what—what was…
Boffi
[clears throat].
Garcia
What your experience during the actual battles?
Boffi
What was what?
Garcia
What your experience during the actual battles themselves?
Boffi
Well, um, uh, the, uh—at the Anzio Beach location, I was on deck and that was a, uh, a 50 millimeter—50 caliber machine gun. And that really was the only action I’ve ever—I’ve ever seen. Because, um, normally, I would be engine room. You would not see any action. And, uh, It’s so strange that now I—you know, there were three destroyers in our squadron. We were all—we were all World War I destroyers. And they, uh, used us as decoys. The American government had no, um, um, information as to where the gun emplacements were. So they—the three destroyers were supposed to go in, approach the beach with all their lights out [inaudible]. And at midnight, put on our search light. We had a great big, regular search light they use at airports. And, uh, there was total darkness. I couldn’t see you guys as dark as it was. And all of a sudden, at midnight, when we put our search lights on, all hell—the beach just broke all out, and I jumped.
And I found out later that that was a trigger, because I was subject to that for a long, long time. I mean, if we walked—if I walked in this room and someone tried to put the—somebody put the light on, I would react to it. And Now I—I found out that eventually, training with the VA [Veterans Administration] and, um—my son, um, met the woman who was the CO of the Purple Heart Association.[3] And she sent me a book, and then I read that—Tears of a Warrior[: A Family's Story of Combat and Living with PTSD] it’s called. I found out that that was only a “trigger,” that they called them. And so I finally got myself to overcome that, and it doesn’t bother me anymore now, but Going into this totally dark room and somebody put the light on. But—and I do it every night when I go home. It’s be totally dark in the house and I flip my own light on, but I don’t react to it anymore like I used to. ‘Cause I suddenly realized that it was just something that was back here and I had to weed it out of my system.
But, uh, normally, I saw no action on my—the—on the [USS Hugh W.] Hadley. I didn’t see any action, until we got, uh, blown out of the engine room—came topside. And to this day, I don’t remember seeing any action then. And I found out from Captain [Doug] Aiken, who’s retired—he was a lieutenant on the Hadley. I asked him how long we were—were in the water, and he said about two and a half hours before we were picked up. And I’ve got—if you want me to email you, I’ve got the picture of that, uh—the ship picking up the survivors and I’ve got the DVD that I can send you and incorporate it with part[?] of yours. It shows a Kamikaze hitting the water and showed the—the bomb going off—something like that. I can get you a copy of those if you—if you wish. They’re not copyrighted at all, so you’re welcome to do with it what—whatever you want with ‘em [clears throat].
Garcia
And so you—you said you were—you were sent in as a decoy. Once—once, like, you complete your mission, did they figure out where the emplacements were and then did you guys leave after that?
Boffi
Well, we didn’t really leave the battle area. We went out on, uh, screening. They called it “screening.” You had two or three destroyers. Well, that day, there were like 15 destroyers out there. And just—you stayed off the beach about three or four miles and tried to shoot down the planes that were coming in to attack our troops. And they were coming in to hit our supply ships [inaudible]. So we were on—on the screening most of the time, at the—Of course, I wasn’t there, but the ship was. I was in the hospital. That was—let’s see—May, June—two and a half months in the, uh, ten city hospital. We called it “ten city” in Tinian Island, which is part of the Marianas.[4]
And, uh, In July of ’45, they sent me to a naval receiving hospital in San Francisco, California. stayed there a couple of weeks, and from there, they sent me to a psychiatric hospital up in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho, because I was getting a severe—I mean, real bad headaches. It was the back of my head and they thought I was going crazy, I guess. It was just blast concussion. It finally settled down. And after about six—I think six or eight weeks in Coeur d’Alene, I was transferred on down to Sun Valley, Idaho, in which there was a naval recuperation hospital. And then, in October of ’45, they transferred me to Fort Lewis, Washington. And, um, from there, to Boston to be discharged in November of 1945 [clears throat].
Garcia
Alright. And, um,what—when, uh—you said that you were on, um—what was the name of the first ship you were on?
Boffi
The USS Bernadou, B-E-R-N-A-D-O-U.
Garcia
And, um, how did you, like—and then you transferred to the Hadley?
Boffi
No. They sent me to school for—the Hadley was so called “new construction.” It was a, uh, bigger class destroyer, and it was higher pressure. We operated at 600 pounds of pressure steam on the Hadley, and the Bernadou was only 250. So I went to North Virginia to school for 12 weeks.
And then I went out to, um, San Pedro, California, and I was part of the 14 people that was the skeleton crew to watch the ship being built. That was quite interesting. And, you know, we saw them lay the keel hull in the dry dock. And we—we had to be in the dry dock every morning at eight o’ clock. That’s where they held quarters. And we literally watched the ship being built. Every—every bit of welding they did, we were there. There were 14 of us: one officer, and, uh, I think two chiefs, myself, another 1st class in engineering, and there, um—some other guys from other rates I don’t know—the yeoman[?] and [inaudible]. But, um—so I was on it when it went into the water in October of 1945—I mean ’44 — and we were sunk May of 1945. so it didn’t last very long.
Garcia
That was…
Boffi
[clears throat].
Garcia
That was during the Invasion of Okinawa[, Japan]?[5]
Boffi
Yes.
Garcia
And what—what was your experience in that battle?
Boffi
My experience? Well, I didn’t see any action, because I was down in the engine room all the time.
Garcia
When you were in the engine room, what—like, what was your job, per se?
Boffi
Well, to keep the ship moving. We had to keep the engines running, and, um— because if you lose your engines, then you are a dead, still target. Then they just blow you out of the water. So, uh—as a matter of fact, Marc [Ennis] is in simulation, and we had no simulators in those days. And I was—I had my pump man and my messenger blindfolded when they were on the lower level, where all the pumps are. And they had the second level was the operating deck—the control deck.
And I had them blindfolded, and the Chief Engineer comes down and he says, “Boffi, we don’t have any time for this blind man’s bluff games and stuff like that.” I said, “We’re not playing games, sir. I’m teaching these guys to know the engine room blindfolded.” That’s the first thing you lose on any situation is power. I mean, right now, if the power went off, we would be in a darkened room. So I said,” I’m trying teach them how to get out of there—this engine room.” And to this day, I think we all come[?]—[Don] Hackler, my master, was the last one to leave the engine room. We seemed to think he slipped down the ladder. he didn’t make it. Speedo, my bunkman, and myself got out. And that was the— Speedo got out first, and then I was second, and Hackler was—and he was only 17 years old. He had been in the Navy like 81 days. At the end of the war, they were taking real young kids in, with hardly any training at all. And, uh, Don Hackler—I think it was his name—and he was the only one that didn’t survive the—in that engine room. We lost, uh, everybody in the forward fire room, plus there were other people on deck. I think there were about 18 casualties that—fatalities that morning of the attack [clears throat].
Garcia
Uh,Going back a little bit, what—what was…
Boffi
[coughs].
Garcia
Saily life like on the Navy vessel?
Boffi
A normal day?
Garcia
Mmhmm.
Boffi
Normally, you get up at about five—normally, you get up about 5:30 for regular crew. But in engineering, you’re—you’re on four hours and off eight. So we would be getting up at like 3:15 in the morning for the four to eight watch. And, uh, for the midnight watch, you got on—you had to be up by quarter to 12, and that ran to—to quarter to four, and that ran to quarter to eight. And, um, once you got in the engine room though, there was no—I didn’t do much. I just sat there, che—checked the other guys, and did some checking of equipment, and stuff like that. But—mostly management. I didn’t really do anything. There was nothing you could do. Just be ready to—if you did take a hit, be ready, you know, do—to you could react. Do what you had to do.
Garcia
And you told us about…
Boffi
[coughs].
Garcia
Some of the, uh, recreational things you did while you were in Italy and Africa. Were there anything in the Pacific—any areas In the Pacific that you got to experience in the Pacific?
Boffi
No. I never got off the ship. We never had any liberty and such. So I know noth—nothing about the Pacific Ocean, other—other than being aboard a ship. We did hit Pearl Harbor[, Hawaii] before—on the way up there—that area. We had about three days in Pearl Harbor. and that was my only experience in Hawaii for a long time. But, uh, you know, you pull into a Navy base and you really have nothing to do. most of them are kind of isolated away from the normal public. We didn’t have the, uh—the glory of—the liberty, so to speak. We got four hours off. Didn’t have enough time to run into town, grab a couple of beers, hopefully get lucky and get a woman, and back to the ship [laughs].
Garcia
[laughs]. And, um…
Boffi
[coughs].
Garcia
What—What was it like when you left the Navy—like, coming home?
Boffi
Well, I—I went to work for the power company. I—I wanted to—see, I used to work in jewelry—jewelry manufacturing, when I was in high school. After I got out of high school, and I told my wife—said, “I’m—I’m going to go into something that was going to be a career, like…” So I—I went to the power company, and after I got into trouble with that union, they run me off.
So I got an insurance job as an engineer. And I inspected elevators and boilers, held safety meetings. Then I, um—April 1st, 1970, when the OSHA [Occupational Safety and Health Act] law came into being, it was signed by the President[6] as the—a law of the land. And I went to, uh, what is now the University of Southern Florida[7] and took a two day exam—two eight hour exams—for, uh, my—they call it Certi—CSP—Certified Safety Professional. And, um, I passed that, so they gave me the designation. That’s what I was when I retired—a Certified Safety Professional.
When I was, uh, working for the insurance company, I—I did the service for a lot of power utilities and inspected elevators in a lot of buildings. My territory included Puerto Rico, the [U.S.] Virgin Islands, and [the] Bahamas. It was a tough territory to—to take care of. And, Uh, Every other month, my wife would go with me and go on the beach, where we would get the hotel in San Juan[, Puerto Rico]. I’d go do my job, and then we would fly over to Saint Thomas[, U.S. Virgin Islands] and Saint Croix[, U.S. Virgin Islands]. I—I really enjoyed it. I—I—I did 50 years in the insurance industry. The, um—I retired March 1st of ’84, and then I re—they called me back. And then I retired again in—in 2001, I think it was. In 2006, they forced me to retire. They said I was too old at 84 years old to be inspecting boilers and elevators and all that kind of stuff, so I finally decided [inaudible].
Garcia
And, Um, Were you awarded any medals or citations? [inaudible]…
Boffi
I have a Purple Heart for my injuries, and I’ve got, uh, three battle stars for the Mediterranean, three warzones, and three battles. And I’ve got, um, one battle for the, uh, Pacific. Other than that, uh, no high rating. Um, medals or anything.
Garcia
Um,What values or characteristics of the Navy do you believe made an impression on—on your life?
Boffi
I think the camaraderie. There’s something about the Navy that the Army and the Marines never had. Uh, Like Mark, anybody would do anything for anyone else, if they were Navy. And I’m not sure that was true in the Army or the Marine Corps. My son became a Marine. He was in, uh, six years during the Vietnam [War] era. And, uh, I didn’t notice the camaraderie with them as I did in the Navy. And to this day, like I said, I go to NAWC every single day. They say I’m there more than people who get paid to be there. They don’t even show up and I’m there every morning.
Garcia
And What was the most valuable lesson that you learned during your time?
Boffi
I’m sorry?
Garcia
What was the most valuable lesson you learned during your time in the Navy?
Boffi
Well, I think that you treat everybody that you would want to be treated, for one thing. The only thing that used to really bother me and still does to this day is these ethnic groups that come [inaudible]—the— immigrants—they come over here and they want us to change to be whatever they are, you know? The Hispanics or Chinese or—I mean, when you come over here, be an American. I can still hear my dad when I was a youngster, he kept saying this great…
Boffi
And he, uh—to this day, I have arguments with some of these people. I am not an Italian. I’m of Italian heritage, but I was born in this country and I’m an American. I fought in several wars—battles—for the Americans. And I’d—I’d do it again if I had to, if that were necessary [clears throat].
Garcia
And What do you think former Navy personnel would like to see or be reminded of when they visit—revisit the site of the base[8] and the Lone Sailor Project Memorial?
Boffi
What do I think of the—I think it’s going to bring back a lot of memories of a lot of people. I—I just—befriended—well, ,I’ve been friends with him for about a year and a half at the Moose Club. I didn’t know he was a photographer in the Army. And then, when he go out of the Army, he took all the photographs to the Navy base, where Mark graduated from, and he took all the shots over the Cape [Canaveral]. He went for the Cape. So, uh, that was kind of interesting.
He’s telling—he was telling Mark and myself about, um, incidents that had happened there before. And, uh, he’s going to be one of our guests at the next Navy League luncheon, I think. He can tell us some of the things that are interesting. Me[sic] and Mark were talking about those days.
I had no idea that there was a boot camp here. I lived up in, um, Miami since ’66, and never had an idea that there was a boot camp in Florida. So That was kind of a shock to me that I got up here and found out there was a boot camp there. I probably would have come up every weekend and go there and visit. I—I would have befriended—I would have taken the, uh, transfer—my company travels insurance wanted transferred me up here in, uh, ’69, I think it was. and I refused it. I wanted to stay around the Miami area, but, uh, if I would have known there was a boot camp up there in the Navy, um, influence, I think I would have—would have transferred.
Garcia
Is there anything else you would like to share about your Navy experience?
Boffi
It’s really helped me a lot, both psychologically and physically. I see they treat people here at NAWC. They really respect me. They show me a lot of respect. They all treat me as though I’m family. Officers, business people, and whatever. I’m just part of their big family and I enjoy it. That’s why I go every day.
Garcia
Thank you, Mr. Boffi.
Boffi
Thank you very much, and good luck in your ventures.
Barnes
Today is Tuesday, May 6th, 2014. I'm interviewing Jeff[rey Edward] Clark, who served in the United States Navy. My name is Mark Barnes, and with me working the camera is Kendra Hazen. We're interviewing Mr. Clark as part of the UCF [University of Central Florida] Community Veterans History Project, and as research for the creation of the educational wall for the Lone Sailor Memorial [Project]. We are conducting this interview in Maitland, Florida.
Mr. Clark, will you please just begin by telling us your name, where you were born—where and when you were born?
Clark
Sure. my name is Jeffrey Clark, and I am originally from East Hartford, Connecticut. I was born in Hartford, Connecticut, on January 31st, 1968. And in 1983, my family moved to Florida—to Flagler County in Palm Coast, where I attended Flagler Palm Coast High School.
And then I did drop out of high school at the age of 17, and joined the Navy shortly after my 17th birthday, where I went through the Orlando Naval Training Center here.[1] Upon completion of my active duty, I returned to—I did obtain my GED (General Educational Development) while I was in the Navy. And then upon completion of my active duty, I did graduate from DBCC—Daytona Beach Community College—and then transferred and graduated at UCF. Major in economics and a minor in political science.
Barnes
Do you have any brother or sisters or parents you want to tell us about?
Clark
Sure. I have two sisters and both of them still reside here in Flagler County in Florida. And then my parents are still alive and live in Flagler County as well. My father—I come from a military family. sort of on the—Forrest Gump movie, I believe, where Lieutenant Dan has an ancestor that had fought in every major American war back to the colonial period. And I have that same line or lineage as well. Goes back to the Mayflower on my father's side.
My father served in the Navy and went through Bainbridge, Maryland, for his boot camp, and then was aboard an aircraft carrier—the USS Chiwawa CV40. And my grandfather—his father—served in World War II. Uh, he was in the Army and was stationed in the Philippines.
And then on my mother's side—my mother is also from—both my father and my mother are from Connecticut, as well. And my mother's side of the family—they were Italian immigrants. my grandfather immigrated in the 19—well, both my grandparents immigrated from Italy to the U.S. in the 1920s. And then when they were younger, obviously—and my mother was born in 1945 and my father was born in 1939.
Barnes
And did you join the Navy for any particular reason?
Clark
Actually, that was a bit of an interesting story. Now, one time, when I was around eight or nine years old, I filled out this application to inquire about the Navy out of a magazine or something like that. And, obviously, you could tell that a child wrote it. Well my father took it as a joke and mailed it in, and I always wanted to join the Navy for—I don't know, because I enjoyed history and my father was in the Navy. So my father mailed this application form in to send information about joining the Navy, and I received this letter from a captain in the Navy that said, you know, “Sorry,” you know, “but you're too young.” And he gave me a couple posters and some other items to say, “Here's some stuff to help you keep thinking Navy, and when you're old enough,” you know, “please come back." Well, pretty much came back at the minimum age possible, and I always wanted to join the Navy when I was a child. I think it was that TV commercial—“It's not just a job. it's an adventure.”
Barnes
So was the Navy a must for you?
Clark
Pretty much. yeah. [air conditioning unit comes on]
Barnes
So you said you attended boot camp in Orlando?
Clark
In Orlando, at the Naval Training Center.
Barnes
And was that by choice, or did they just tell you where to go?
Clark
Um, I would like to think it was by choice, because when I joined in this February—and having lived in Florida and being accustomed to the warm weather—I told the recruiter that I would go into the Navy now, if I could go to Orlando or San Diego, and not Great Lakes. Because there were three facilities for boot camp in the Navy—Great Lakes, San Diego, and Orlando, at that time. And I remember my father was very anxious. He said, “Well, you're going to go in now,” you know, “take him.” But somehow—luck, I would presume—I went through Orlando.
Barnes
We'll come back to this, but what were you trained to do for the Navy? What was your job? Or your jobs?
Clark
Initially, when I went in, I was a basic seaman recruit to do basic shipboard tasks, such as, you know, chipping paint and painting. and in the boats and bay field, sort of basic deck board duties. However, during the course of the time, I did become a signalman, which was communications and navigation, primarily with Morse code, with flashing lights—semaphore, as well.
Barnes
Semaphore?
Clark
In the flags. And that “A” school by the way. If I had entered the Navy as a signalman instead of a basic seaman recruit, the training for the Signalman School was here in Orlando, as well, at the Naval Training Center.
Barnes
We're going to circle back through your life as a recruit, and then we'll circle back through your life as a sailor. So when you first got to—your first day off the bus, so to speak, you know, what were some of the biggest adjustments you had to make going through?
Clark
Alright. I'm going to take a step back from the bus over to the Orlando Naval Training Center, since we're in the state of Florida. I'll keep us in the state of Florida. So, when you enter the military, you go to your recruiting office and you complete all that, and they, I presume, do the background checks—similar—probably similar to any new employment process, if you're hiring somebody.
So one of the key things after you go through that, you have to go through what they call the “MEPs center”—Military Entrance Processing facility—and that was in Jacksonville. And up there you get an initial physical, and they determine if you're—kind of the final step—if you're worthy enough to go on active duty. So I went through that in Jacksonville, and I remember going through there and, for some reason, I had thought that I was not going to enter the Navy until the summertime. And this one naval chief overheard me say that, and he said, “What did you say?” And I said, “I’m not going on active duty until the summer.” I say, “I get to go home, you know, after I go through the MEPS process today.” and he said, “Oh, no you’re not. You’re going in tomorrow morning, and I’m going to personally see to it.” I guess I was talking out of line.
So anyways[sic], we rode a bus from Jacksonville—and I remember I had to call my parents and say, “I’m not coming home.” [laughs] It was kind of sudden and quick. So we rode a bus from Jacksonville. and of course, we didn’t even take [Interstate] 95 and [Interstate] 4. It was like going on a Greyhound. I think it took about five hours to get there, because, you know, we went down, you know, [U.S. Route] 17, and then through Palatka, and all the back roads through there to get to Orlando. So we made it there, and they drop us off at the bus—at the bus area.
And then you kind of get indoctrinated where you come in and you start to, initially—so the initial shock was like, “Wow. this is for real.” But you still had your civilian clothes and you still had your hair. And so—and then that way you—you got your assignment, you know, where your—what your company you're going to be, what building at the Orlando Naval Training Center would be your home for the course of boot camp. And then the next day was kind of, you know—the first couple days were kind of intrigue, you know—kind of getting indoctrinated. And you go through a health screen, you go through and get your hair cut, and your clothes and all that assigned, then you begin your boot camp.
Barnes
Do you have anything that stands out from your time?
Clark
Oh yes. Yeah. definitely. So, for example—and at this time I obviously had more hair than I do now—but I was very proud of my hair. You know, “pretty boys,” as they would say in the Navy. and when I got my head shaved, I didn't look at myself in a mirror for about five or six weeks. I remember I would feel it and be like, Oh. And luckily they didn't have mirrors or anything in the boot camp berthing area—you know, the living area. So I made a purpose not to look at myself. That was the biggest, biggest shock.
The other shock that I had was I was going to have to learn how to fold clothes, because—kind of like out of a movie, where, you know, my mommy is able to wash, fold, and put my clothes away for me. But that changed, and I had to learn how to fold clothes.
But I was a baseball player in high school and very physically active, so the physical nature of boot camp that everybody thinks about—the physical activity was really not an issue for me. I was already in pretty good shape from playing baseball and other physical activities.
Clark
Do you have any memories from when you graduated? Did your folks come down?
Barnes
Yes. As part of the process, there was a graduation ceremony. And, like, my family, including my father's parents—my grandparents—came down and they went to the graduation ceremony, and they were able to get a tour of the facility. And it’s like a parade ground, and they set up these bench area bleachers. and the families were able to watch us do our Pass and Review and hear the speeches from the—from Captain Nice, who was the Recruit Training Center commanding officer and NCS (National Call to Service) conductor of ceremony. Then afterwards, everybody went home.
But, you know, we were able to meet up and, you know, it was good for my family to be there to see that. And that was, you know, an equivalent of like a high school graduation. I would say very similar, but you know dressed in military and military ceremony.
Barnes
When you graduated from boot camp, what was your next assignment?
Clark
Sure. upon graduating boot camp—boot camp lasted about eight and a half weeks. I actually entered active duty on February 26th, 1985, and then boot camp officially started March 1st. And, as I mentioned, those first couple of days were, you know, getting your hair cut, and getting your clothes, and getting indoctrinated.
And then when I graduated, I started—I continued at the Orlando Naval Training Center. They did have additional training schools there. The one I went to is—when I entered the Navy, I entered the Apprenticeship Training Program. and that was open to individuals who wanted to focus on more of a general—kind of like a liberal arts, if you want to call it that—to compare it to college. So there was a Seaman Apprenticeship, a Firemen Apprenticeship, and an Air Apprenticeship.
And then once you completed that training, then you would get assigned to a permanent duty station. So seamen went in to, you know—were eligible and did a cross-range of duties, such as, in the boatmen mate field, which is the deck duty. And then airmen, you know, went and supported, you know, aircraft either on carriers or as part of a detachment. And firemen kind of could go on ships, because they were the ones who worked down in what we called “the pit”—the boiler room and the engine rooms where the boiler technician rates and the machinist mates ran that. So I went through the Seaman Apprenticeship Training program.
Barnes
Were there certain classes you had to take, or do you know about the classes from the various—from the three places you just—the three schools you just described?
Clark
Yes. So basically how the Orlando Naval Training Center was set up is you kind of had—there were—if I remember—I think there were 10 buildings—10 or 12 buildings. And it was set up very, you know, military-style. On one end, you had sort of—and they were called—I forget what they were called. But there's like Building One, Building Two, etc. So on each end was kind of like the administrative offices, and then in between and in sequential order on each side, I think there was[sic] 12. There was[sic] 2 on the end, and five this way and five that way. And then on one side—and, in the middle, there was a divider, like a road that went through the middle. And on one side was strictly where boot camp was conducted. and on the other side is where the schools were conducted. They were the living quarters basically, or “berthing areas,” as they’re called in the Navy.
And so I went through the Seaman Apprenticeship Training. It was a series of classroom training and on-the-job training. They did the USS Blue Jacket, which was there—which was a training, you know—simulation of a ship and so we would go perform for seamen apprenticeship training. You know, how to tie knots, how to tie up the ship, how to raise flags, and other things associated with the Seamen Apprenticeship. And then the fireman did similar things, where, you know, they went in and simulated what jobs they would do once they went to the fleet. And that apprenticeship training was approximately four weeks for that.
Barnes
How would you describe the relationship between your instructors on that side versus your instructors on...
Clark
Sure.
Barnes
The recruit side?
Clark
On the recruit side, the boot camp, you know, was very strict. Very boot camp. very structured. You know, very military. You know, “controlling” is—I guess, would be a way to describe it. You know, your day was fully planned. You, you know—we woke up at four A.M. We went, you know—we did some initial drills and then we have our set breakfast time. You know, Company 101’s breakfast was from say 5:00 to 5:30.
You came back, you washed up, you know, brushed your teeth—whatever. Then you had set criteria of everyday what you would do. And most of it was practicing marching for your graduation ceremony, as well as other, you know, stuff that was boot camp related. You know, physical activity, swimming, firefighting drills that everybody needs to know for the military, and other basic stuff.
Now this was a little bit more specialized, and it was, like I said, classroom and on-the-job training. I would say that there was a bit more freedom. It was like a 9-to-5 job. You know, you woke up, you started class at eight o'clock, you had lunch from 12 to 1, and you were free to go do what you want.
In addition, I guess the big thing was—you were free on the weekends to go do whatever you wanted. Whereas in boot camp, you know, you were in boot camp and you were not allowed to leave. The only time that we left boot camp was after six weeks, we were granted what they called a “restricted liberty,” where it was kind of like an elementary school field trip. You know, like SeaWorld or [Walt] Disney [World], or somewhere like that. And it was very restricted. And, you know, it was covered.
And then you had an unrestricted liberty, like the week before you graduated, and that’s where you could stay within the city of Orlando, and kind of go anywhere you want and you had to be back at a certain time. And I guess a story for this would be—everybody—all the instructors and the officers—would say South OBT [Orange Blossom Trail] is off limits, because it’s kind of a dodgy area. But of course, where does everybody go? South OBT.[2] So that’s pretty much where unrestricted liberty went.
And then, like I said, during the apprenticeship training you were free to do[sic] on the weekend. and then I used to go home, you know. My mother would come pick me up or my father would come pick me up, and I’d visit my friends on the weekend, and then I had to be back Monday morning by eight o’clock to go to class. So it didn’t really matter, but I’d usually come back Sunday night, because we were still living in our living quarters. I guess the way I’d compare, you know, is boot camp was kind of like, you know, elementary school and high school. Very structured, very strict, limited. And apprenticeship training was more like college, where, “Hey, this is what you got to do,” you know, “Here's your times. the rest of that’s up to you.”
Barnes
Now you had—when you said you were living there, did you guys have apartments almost when you were an apprentice?
Clark
No. It was very—it was the same as what we had in boot camp. You know, the same structure. So basically it was an open area, like a barracks, and it was for enlisted. Now, officers tended to have the equivalent of more like the hotel or a small apartment, and they would usually share that with one other officer, depending on their rank. But general enlisted—and this even continued into the Navy with various living quarters on ships—whether you were enlisted or if you were chief, which was a senior enlisted person—kind of like middle management. Where if you were an officer, different living quarters. So it was an open area, and it had bunk beds and lockers for you to store your stuff. It was the same as in boot camp.
Barnes
Now, outside of the schools—the training schools—the command schools that you went to—do you have any recollection of the other schools that maybe were offered at the base?
Clark
Um, yes. from what I recall, because, as I went—during my time in the Navy, I went on, and—they call it “striking out”—I don't know why they call it that, because it’s actually a win ,you know—but basically, you get to move on from sort of a general, seaman apprenticeship-type role to a more specialized one. And I became a signalman, which was the shipboard flags communications and navigation, as well as communications with flashing lights via Morse code and semaphore. And the Signalman School was here in Orlando.
And also—and then—so basically the school structure was as follows. You had the generalists, the Apprenticeship Training Program that I talked about that I went through. Then you had “A” schools, which was[sic] schools that were for a specific job in the Navy, whether you were a storekeeper, a signalman, or, you know, something like that. Then there were also “C” schools, and “C” schools were for very specialized skills which normally required and extended enlistment period, such as six years active duty.
And so, during that time, people were kind of classified based on what their enlistment was that they signed up for. There were the 3-by-6s, which meant you were three years active and then six years of inactive reserves. Or IRR, right—“Inactive Readiness Reserves” I believe is the military term. There were 4-by-4s—and I was a 4-by-4—which meant four years active, four years inactive. And then there were the 6-by-2s, which were the specialty folks who went to extended training. They were six years active and then two years inactive reserves. Unless, of course, if they re-enlisted on active duty, then they would continue.
And the key thing about “C” school was that, once you completed about a two-year classroom/on-the-job training program, you automatically became an E[nlisted Rank] 4—a petty officer third-class. We used to call those people “boot camp thirds.” Because, like, as you go through, you know, you'll be an E-1, E-2, E-3, and then E-4. whereas these guys automatically got credits, basically like college, you know—you got some free credits. So there were some “C” schools here, including the Nuclear Program was here, and the Signalman School was here, and I think—no. The Storekeeper School was in Mississippi. that wasn’t here. But from what I remember, Apprenticeship Training, Signalman, and there was, like, Fire Control Technicians, Radar Schools.
Barnes
Any other—anything else you think about—life off of base, special to base?
Clark
I guess just kind of life on the base. There was Navy Exchange, so if you were a retired naval person—and Florida accumulated a lot of, you know, a lot of retirees and a lot of military retirees, because of the history with Sanford and Orlando—so the Navy Exchange store was there. So if you were active duty or if you were retired military, you could do your shopping. In certain cases, get things a lot cheaper than out in the regular market.
Other than that, it was pretty much, from what I remember, just a training facility. I remember there was a high school on—right on the outside of the base. Seemed like—sometimes we would joke like we were kind of in prison, you know, and you could see the freedom on the other side. I remember, you know, like we would be marching on the grinder and doing all these drills, and you'd look over and see these high school kids running track and field, or, you know, something like that at the high school, and you're thinking we're in prison, but…
Barnes
When you left Orlando, you boarded a ship?
Clark
Yes. Upon completion of my apprenticeship training course—a little bit more of the story here is I had a chief petty officer. I forget his name, but you received your orders where you went to go, and I was always kind of joking around a little bit with the chief. And sure enough, where I get stationed, but the same ship he had come from to the Orlando Naval Training Center. so I remember he told me it was going to be tough, and that he was gonna—he arranged to have me go to the USS Richard E. Bird TDG-23—guided missile destroyer—ported out of Norfolk, Virginia. And that's where I went. And, interesting enough, this chief I then met years later when I was attending UCF and I was working at NationsBank—now Bank of America. He was a customer in there, and I remember him when he came in. we chatted and caught up, and he was living out by UCF at the time, and he was a customer at the bank.
But I caught my ship and I remember it was in the middle of deployment, towards the tail end of the North Atlantic—NATO [North Atlantic Treaty Organization] cruise. And I remember I had received my orders and I had to go there, and I had all my airplane tickets. They arranged and all that. And I looked on there and I'm like, Where is this place called Ponta Delgada? And there was no Internet in 1985, so I had to go look in the encyclopedia, and it was in the Azores Islands—Portuguese islands in the Atlantic Ocean. I remember I flew from Orlando to New York, and then caught airport to Lisbon[, Portugal], and had a couple night’s stay in Lisbon overnight, and then caught the flight to Ponta Delgada, where I caught my ship. And I still remember the first people I met, who I'm still in contact with today, on board my ship. Gary Hayne[sp], Kurt Kiesden[sp], and Alan Welch[sp] in particular, because I was assigned to deck division, and I was assigned to them.[3] And then from there, you know, I was assigned to the ship and that became my permanent duty station that I stayed at for the remainder of my term—three years and eight months.
Barnes
So you left the Navy when?
Clark
In February ’89. Four years active duty, and then served in the inactive reserves, which just meant if there's a call up, then you were subject.
Barnes
What did you end up doing when you left the Navy?
Clark
Okay. When I left the Navy, I started attended Daytona Beach Community College, which I think is now Daytona State College or something. and so I stayed in Flagler County and just did kind of odd jobs. I worked in a warehouse, primarily while I went to DBCC. And then I started working in the bank as a bank teller and then a sales and service rep[resentative].
And that actually worked out well, because, at the time, with the state, you could complete your first two years at a community college, then automatically transfer into any of the Florida state university system campuses. So I transferred to Orlando, because I worked at the bank it was quite an easy transfer to move over. So I started UCF in the Fall of ’93, after graduating from DBCC in the Spring of ’93. And then I graduated in Spring of ‘95 from UCF.
And also, I guess, during the—some other good things—when I became a basic seaman apprenticeship and I was assigned to the deck division on board, besides just chipping paint and doing all the deck stuff, the favorite thing—and I still remember it today, and it was one of my favorite things—you know, I barely had my driver's license—but at age 17, I qualified as a helmsman, and I drove the ship. I was at the wheel, and I qualified to run the ship's engines—the lee helm. and I used to stay on lookout watch. So here I was at 17 years old—and I actually saw a video on YouTube, like a Navy video, and it shows, like, the 22-year-old guy says, “Yeah. this is my job.” He says the same thing.
And I still remember to this day how to take the helm. You would go up—if you were to take the helm—let’s just say you’re at the wheel now—now I would walk up to the—well, I would first come to you and say, “Hey, what’s[sic] the coordinates? Where do you steer and where do you check in?”And that’s sort of the numbers from the compass of where—what direction you were going. I’d collect that, I’d go check what the speed was in knots, and then I would go up to the Officers’ Deck and salute, and he would say, “Officer of the deck, request permission to take the helm, steering course 225, checking 222 starboard unit, starboard cable, all engines ahead standard, 17 knot.” And the officer on deck would reply back and say, “Relieve the helm.” Then he would go over and then I would—I would take over. Yeah. it’s cool.
Barnes
Well I was getting ready to ask you, what were some of your favorite memories of the...
Clark
Oh, okay. alright. That’s a great one.
Barnes
Do you have another one there that...
Clark
Oh. Yeah. There’s[sic] plenty of them—and then really anything you tend to do, you know, in your life, it’s really about the people. And, you know, made some great friends. Still in contact with a lot them today. And lessons learned, you know, as a young kid—17 to 21, while I was in the Navy. And there’s a lot of memories, you know, of growing up doing stuff.
And I guess another thing is—I was always kind of a prankster a little bit, and I used to come home on leave for spring break, so I could be with all my friends. And we'd go to Daytona [Beach] and all that. One time I went off-base and I got—the senior chief, Senior Chief Moses, who was in charge of deck division, who I worked for—his plan was, you know, you had to look like a sailor. He was very strict with inspections. Well, one time I was trying to sneak and I went off-base and I got what he would call a “pretty-boy haircut.” So I came back and sure enough someone told on me and he personally walked me down to the ship’s barber and butchered me or whatever.
And so, as a retaliatory, I decided next day, I’m going to go put some red mousse in my hair and go stand inspection in front of him. Big mistake [laughs]. I remember he walked up to me, put his face in my face, and he goes, “Take your hat off, punk.” And he was this Texas—Texan guy. Big Texan guy. I took it off and I was smiling, and I wasn’t smiling much after that. He told me I had exactly two seconds to wash that “expletive” out of my hair or he was going to personally shave my head. [laughs] Let’s just say I jumped down the forward hatch and had the stuff out pretty quickly. [laughs]
Barnes
This kind of ties into this whole project that we’re doing and you mentioned it, but you made a lot of personal friends. You’re still in contact with them?
Clark
Yep. Yeah. Out on Facebook. They're all in on Facebook. We have our ships—we have a page of our ships, and so a lot of us connected through there, but even before that there was like a newsletter and some reunions that go. Because I was on an older ship that was commissioned in the early 60s and then decommissioned shortly after I left in 1990. So, you know, there’s[sic] 30 years of history pretty much with my ship that I was on. So the reunions—you have 30 years of people who served on board. So it’s quite large and extensive.
And then I always try to make the effort to visit some of the folks. I travel extensively for my current job, and if I go to a city where one of those guys are, you know, we always try to meet up. And a lot of them are kind of joking when, you know, I first got connected with them, say on Facebook, and they say, “I can’t believe you’re this corporate guy in a suit. You’re the last guy we would have thought as a corporate guy in a suit.”
Barnes
Is this your first trip—you've been back to Orlando since?
Clark
Oh, yeah. And actually, I guess after I finished the Navy, I graduated from UCF, and then worked locally in Altamonte [Springs] at the Kirchman Corporation, which was a banking software company. And then I worked for Pro Systems in Maitland. and then I went to—on an assignment to Luxemburg in Europe. I was there for a couple years. and then I came back and I was on a project in San Francisco[, California]. And then—then this was 2001.
So basically the time scale goes from exited active duty in ‘89, college until ‘95, Kirchman Corporation and Pro ‘96-‘97, Luxemburg from ‘98 to 2001, and then San Francisco for about a half a year. And then I came back to Maitland, and was working in Maitland and lived in Apopka from 2001 ‘till 2005, when I moved to Atlanta[, Georgia], and I've been in Atlanta since 2005.
Barnes
What do you think about all of the changes of the area that used to be the base?
Clark
You know, it’s kind of somewhat sad. There’s really nothing left there. Karla Novak was a personal friend of mine from when—from UCF days—gave me a tour around the Lone Sailor Foundation and the plans for that. And she showed me where the statue is going to be, you know, we’re kind of—both her and I went through there. So we were thinking this is—and she says, “Well, this is the old grinder.” and she was saying, “Remember we’d go over here and have to do these drills?”
Well, now it’s this open grass area. or over there is the housing where our berthing area—but now Baldwin Park is there. So it’s somewhat sad to think that—and I'm kind of one that—I like to preserve history. I wouldn’t want to say you have to preserve the base as-is, but you know, I think how important and how many lives, you know, were shaped, such as mine, going through boot camp. You know, going from being a kid to being an adult basically. you know, that there’s really not much left there.
Barnes
Well, what do you think the legacy of the base is?
Clark
I would say the legacy of the base is going to be, you know, the individual experiences of the people that really went through there. I mean, there’s not much left to see of, you know—what was left there, what was done. It was, you know, a training facility, classroom, and on-the-job training basically. You know, so there’s not much left as far as what you think of the Navy. You know, ships or aircraft or weapons or anything like that. I really think it’s about personal experience. And everybody had a different experience. You know, what they went through there.
Barnes
As a returning sailor, what would want to see if you returned back to the area to see the memorial? I mean, what would resonate with you?
Clark
I think some pictures, you know, of the facility itself, you know. Kind of like, if you went into a museum, you like to see this was Orlando Naval Training Center was here from 1968 ‘till 1992, or something like that. Here’s the pictures and, you know, kind of what, you know—like for my boot camp book—went there, you know. There’s[sic] pictures in there that show the activities and kind of what went on there, and everything’s changed from, you know—boot camp is probably similar, but there’s a lot of changes, you know.
And I think preserving the history and at least showing that, while we can—would be, you know, a good thing. You know, to show there with the Lone Sailor—the Lone Sailor is a great thing to—to reflect their—well, I think any memorabilia or, you know, pictures that show at one point in time this is what was here and quantify it. You know, x-number of people went through during this time who were the commanding officers, you know, kind of like any similar memorials or stuff like that.
Barnes
That’s about all I have. Is there anything that we missed that you’d like to add or a story you'd like to share?
Clark
I think I pretty much covered everything. You know, that was my time here in Orlando at the Naval Training Center for boot camp and then kind of post activities. So I think we've pretty much covered the full spectrum of your questions there, so.
Barnes
Okay. Well, thank you very much.
Clark
Thank you. I'm glad to help.
Barnes
Today is February 12th, 2014. I am interviewing Scott [T.] Kidd, who served in the United States Navy. My name is Mark Barnes, and with me is Fernando Maldonado, who is working the camera. We are interviewing Mr. Kidd as part of the UCF Community Veterans History Project, and as research for the creation of the Lone Sailor Memorial Project. We are recording this interview at UCF [University of Central Florida], in the city of Orlando, Florida. Mr. Kidd, or Scott, however you would like to be directed.
Kidd
Scott is fine.
Barnes
Scott. So, if you could just give us some of your early biography. Where were you born? Your brothers or sisters, mother, father?
Kidd
Sure. I was born in Richland, Washington. I have six brothers and sisters. Single-parent family. Raised there in the [19]60s. Left home when I was 15, as part of the late 60s-early 70s liberal generation movement. Early—bounced around the California-Las Vegas area. Got married.
Decided I would join the military and clean my act up, at a certain point in life. And then spent 12 years in the service. After multiple experiences there, I received a medical retirement, due to some contamination from a command I was with.
And moved on into real life. I opened a couple of businesses. got into broadcasting. And now, I run a company that is involved in putting science and technology companies together with young students in order to do career guidance.
Barnes
Good. And what year did you join the Navy? And what were your reasons for choosing the Navy over other services branches?
Kidd
I joined the Navy in actually February of—yeah—February of 1983. And, at that time, we were busy—the United States, in particular, was busy—enjoying a massive recession. Huge unemployment. Eighteen percent—18 to 20 percent interest rates on home loans. There was a lot of convulsions there, and I had a young family that I needed to be able to take care of. So, like many people, I joined for the job. I selected the military, because—quite frankly, I selected the Navy, because they gave me a bonus, which came in quite handy at the time. So like many people in the military who joined, it was for the money—for the job.
Barnes
And what were some of your first experiences coming out of boot camp—some of your first assignments?
Kidd
Okay. here’s a little entertainment. First place, I was—even though I was born in Washington, I sort of made my way to warmer clim[ate]s, like the L.A. [Los Angeles] and Las Vegas areas. When I joined the service, in February of 1983, the Navy and its infinite wisdom sent me to Great Lakes, Illinois, which is the north end of Chicago. Directly on the lake. Now for those of you unaware of it, it’s frickin’ cold up there [laughs]. So when you have a chill factor of minus 35 [degrees], it, ah, persuades you that—it gives you second thoughts about your [laughs] —your move to join the military. But any rate, I completed boot camp there, and my initial training—I was actually there for a best part of the year.
And my first duty assignment was in Norfolk, Virginia, with a ship called the USS Shenandoah—I forgot to mention it down there—brand new ship that had just been commissioned. I was what was known as a “boiler technician.” I was persuaded to become a boiler technician, because the recruiter I spoke to was a chief boiler technician who told me what a great job it was. And, oh, he lied [laughs]. I will tell you, this is not just for me, but through your conversations with anyone else in here, one of the most common refrains you will hear from folks who served in, ah—in any of the branches is that, “My recruiter lied to me.” [laughs]. That is just—it should be on Hallmark cards.
But regardless, when I started on board the Shenandoah, which was a tender ship—in other words, it was a repair ship, so it brought supplies and performed repairs on other ships while they were deployed. So we would accompany battle groups of ships that would go on cruises. For example, Mediterranean cruise would normally be scheduled to last for about six months. It would include an aircraft carrier, some destroyers, support ships, this-and-that, and we would—we were the type of ship that would go a long with that group in order to keep them functioning over that six month period. So my job was to work on propulsion—stuff which is what boilers were for. We built steam. Interesting experience.
It was also one of the first ships in the Navy that had a sexually-integrated crew. Because at that time, women were not permitted in contact—in combat roles. Because this particular ship was considered a support ship it was—it did not put anyone in direct combat. Ergo, you could have women sailors.
Barnes
What year was…
Kidd
That was 1984.
Barnes
What—when did you come to NTC [Naval Training Center] Orlando?
Kidd
I was stationed starting in June of 1989. I was—what was called? My first shore duty command, which meant that I did not have to go to sea for a while.
Barnes
And how did you come about getting that assignment?
Kidd
My assignment at NTC Orlando was actually with the subcommand RTC Orlando—Recruit Training Command. This is kind of important—an important distinction in that, as background, if—in order to get promoted in the military, you had to show your skill and availability, flexibility in different types of roles. Those roles would usually include assignments. Now, there were certain assignments that you could take in the Navy that enhanced your resume, and virtually guaranteed your promotion to the next level.
For enlisted people, promotion—you went through E[nlisted Rank] 6—is essentially strictly a test taking job. The Navy says how many it needs, you take a paper test, and if you score high enough on that test, you get promoted. The promotion to E-7—the E-7 through E-9 grades, which is senior enlisted, is based on different criteria, along with taking tests. It’s also a lot of interview and examination of your service record, what type of assignments you had, skill sets, etc. Performance-based. So, if you wanted to be promoted to E-7, which is kind of important for a number of reasons, you had to take some demanding assignments. RTC Orlando recruit—being a recruit company commander slot, there was one of those type of assignments that would get you—if you completed it successfully, odds are you were gonna get promoted .
Barnes
So you arrived in 1989 to…
Kidd
I was there through—through 1980—from ’89 through ’93.
Barnes
And what were your impressions of the base and/or the Orlando area when you arrived?
Kidd
Oh, Orlando’s beautiful, compared to Norfolk [laughs]. The base had—was a mixture of buildings that were 60 years old and brand new. From—the base, of course, was originally an [U.S.] Army—was an [U.S.] Air For—Army Air Force base built back in World War II. And it had been—in the 1960s—supposed to be closed, but Lyndon [B.] Johnson did a deal with one of the, uh, Congress people here for Central Florida, in order to get the congressmen’s votes for the Civil Rights Act [of 1965]. Lyndon Johnson did a deal with him—said, “Well, we’ll keep the base open instead of closing it so you have jobs.” And they transferred it over to the Navy. The Navy—you might note that we do live in Florida, and that Orlando is damn near as far from the water as you can get. So that might seem an odd place for a Navy base [laughs]. But any rate, that’s why it was there. But it was a beautiful base, and the city of Orlando of course was growing at that time. Lots of great building going on, lots of energy, sunshine. All things you might expect.
Barnes
So while you were at RTC, what were your responsibilities? Your day in and day out responsibilities.
Kidd
[coughs] I was what is known as a “recruit company commander.” Many people recognize that from what they are in the other services called “drill sergeants.” But the Navy being different, we’re recruit company commanders. It was our job to supervise folks who were brand new to the military experience—Navy, in particular—from the time they arrived on a bus until they had met certain standards and were prepared to go on to their first set of actual technical schools. We trained them in how to wear uniforms, appropriate sense of discipline, how to recognize military rank, appropriate forms of behavior.
The, uh—the recruit training experience is something that’s been around since Roman times. It is designed to take someone who is a civilian, with civilian values, regardless of where they come from, and first break down their identity as a civilian, for who they were in the first place, and then build them back up with a new identity—sense of recognition as a member of that military group. So that is what—that’s what we did over the course of eight weeks. We spent a couple of weeks being very nit-picky about any—any deviation from standards, by the quarter inch. Sometimes sixteenth of an inch. Once you did that—that normally took about two weeks—and from that point on, you would spend your time having them involved in basic classes—classroom activities—and then participation in group activities in order to build up that identity.
Barnes
And how did the recruits—obviously, they may have all been different—but how did the recruits seem to act to the environment, to the training, to the region, did they come in raw and left as…
Kidd
Left as sailors, which is what they were. It’s such a wide range. It is. But when you say how they reacted when they came in, that’s kind of the point. The point is you do have a wide range of individuals, and the point is to put them out in the end of that eight-week training as similarly as possible. So they all met certain standards. So we really didn’t care how they felt when they got there. We already knew that the system was designed to be uncomfortable for them. It was designed to be challenging.
An example is routinely you would—their first day of arrival, regardless, they would be scheduled to come in somewhere between ten o’clock at night and four o’clock in the morning. They would be herded into a—basically a dormitory room with bunk beds, regardless of what time they got there. With their stuff, whatever they carried on which was minimal, and their clothing. At 04:00—or four o’clock in the morning—myself and another person would come in and wake them up. It was not unusual for us to wake them up by banging metal trashcans, or using an air horn, or both. The idea was—thinking of it as shock and awe, because they would lead, for the next couple of weeks, 18-hour days, in order to—as part of that process to change their value system.
Barnes
Now did you guys—now you as an instructor, and you can answer for the recruits if you know as well, did you guys have normal off-base activities? Downtime? Anything that you guys liked to do?
Kidd
The recruits did not. During that eight-week training, uh—let me rephrase that. During the eight-week training period, the recruits would normally go through six weeks basically [coughs]—six weeks of training of varying intensities. Initially, extremely intense, a little less so, and more cerebral[?] as it went along, more detailed-oriented.
By the end of six weeks—normally somewhere—the sixth or seventh weekend, they were there. they would be escorted by company commanders like me to some type of off-base activity. Go to SeaWorld, or something else along that line. The following week they’d be allowed to go without escorts. Like that weekend when they graduated, which was either—normally the end of their seventh week. When they graduated they would have that evening to go out and do whatever they were—then they would come back they would have two or three more days before they actually left the base and went onto their next command. Depends on the schedule, on the way it fell apart.
So by and large, the company commanders—no. We, the company commanders, were horribly mistreated [laughs]. I’m sorry, I’m just playing. It was a very challenging duty for a company commander, because in the shipboard Navy, normally you deploy for six months. You’re gone from home, family, all the rest of that, the boat’s gone. And you go for shorter deployments, depending on what type of command you were on. It was nothing for shipboard Navy to be gone, physically, nine months a year from your home and family. Very strenuous.
Well, when you came to a training command here, it was just as bad. Problem was it was even more intense, and worse your family is just down the street from wherever you lived. So when—when we say it was intense for the recruits, understand the company commanders did everything the recruits did, were with them that entire time. Plus an hour before and an hour after. So it was not unusual for company commanders to have weeks where they averaged four hours sleep a night.
After—after three consecutive—the normal schedule was to train three companies, and then take a break from being a company commander to being an instructor in teaching classes, which was normal life. you actually had like weekends off. But for six months you were pretty burnt out [laughs]. The effect on company commanders being stationed there—the normal billeting there was a three-year duty. When you have orders to go there, you are expected to be there for three years. And the divorce rate there for married couples was an excess of 70 percent. It was just that strenuous, and demanding a duty. It was pretty intense. But for those people that survived it and did well, God bless them all.
Barnes
But you mentioned classes that recruits went to. What were some of the classes that they take?
Kidd
Recruits would go through classes—everything from an introduction to naval history. Teaching them about John Paul Jones— it was a very much—very light overview, very light, of the years the Mili[tary], the years the Navy got started, some of the high points, and very early naval history, etc. That type of thing. They would also go through courses—classes on basic hygiene, behavioral sense. I would call it “social and ethical education”, as in teaching what the standards were. We had class everything to naval history to rape awareness, all of which were taught be certified instructors like myself. So everything from how to wear your clothes properly, to the language of the Navy—as in, for example, what a “bulkhead” is. It’s a wall, by the way, if you didn’t know. All floors are decks. ceilings are overheads. There’s a shipboard terminology the Navy uses that no one else does. So you had to learn that. You also had to learn neat stuff like “bits,” “bites” as they applied to the Navy. They have nothing to do with high-tech, they have a whole lot to do with ropes [laughs]. So these are all things that—there’s a wide range of topics. Largely related to how to behave in a shipboard environment.
Barnes
Now did you instruct male and female recruits?
Kidd
Oh, yes. I did [laughs].
Barnes
So—so what was that experience like for the recruits? For the officers?
Kidd
For the—let me start with for the recruits, because I got a lot of feedback from them. This was a unique time in the Navy’s history—my particular time era—because of the fact that, while Recruit Training Center of Orlando had always—as long as the Navy had been accepting women—had been the training center for women enlisted recruits. In the late ‘80s-early ‘90s, the Navy as a policy made the commitment to do training of both sexes together in the same room. No separation. this-and-that and the other things. The Navy was very, very concerned, from a policy matter, that they—there would be problems involving throwing a lot of young people together in a stressed environment, where they might be encouraged to look for some release from that stress. What a stunning idea [laughs].
So in the Navy’s infinite wisdom, they made it the responsibility of the trainers and stuff to emphasize to these young men and young women every day that having sex was not a good thing. So you might want to imagine telling a drunk, “Don’t think about pink elephants.” So yes. It became challenging in that respect, and young women and young men, being what young women and young men are, there were some rather creative attempts to get around the rules there. Not a big deal. In the big scheme of things, it’s hardly—but it was more amusing than anything else. The point was that it added a note to the training environment that didn’t exist elsewise in the Navy.
And it also led to some major changes in the way recruits were actually trained. The history of training recruits is—regardless of branch of service, again—is very much tied into the process of breaking down the individualized identity in the first place, and rebuilding them. Anyone who has ever watched the movies knows that there’s a certain amount of blunt language that is used, and historically has been used. Well, the United States Navy, as training command, decided that that type of language was no longer to be used.
So within an environment where you have certain expectations by many of the recruits— come in expecting that this is going to be the toughest thing they ever did. some of them were a little disappointed. Probably a minority, but nonetheless you had folks who were very highly motivated to be there looking for the challenge of a lifetime. Those are a lot of recruits who came to the military simply because they were looking for direction. That was their number one reason for entering. It wasn’t because of job. it was because they wanted a sense of who they were within a larger community. I cannot count the number of kids—and I’ll say “kids,” because I was in my mid-30s and most of them were in their teens—who came to me after, upon completion of training or during it, and expressed their pride about being part of the organization, knowing what they were doing, having goals that were clear to them at that time. So by and large, for the vast majority of recruits coming through, boot camp—RTC Orlando—was a very positive experience. I think most of them—I never met one who afterwards[sic]—many of the kids I trained here, even 20 years later, are in touch with me via Facebook or something else, who haven’t expressed what a positive impact the experience had on their lives.
Funniest thing I ever—I actually had probably over the course of my three and a half years, 13 companies that I’ve pushed, which was pretty much the record. More than once, at the end of the training cycle for the kids, the eight-week period, when they approach their graduation, the night before their actual graduation ceremony, their parents and families would come to visit. And more than once, I’d have some young man come introduce me to his single mother. And then come to me afterwards and say, “I wish I had a dad like you.” Which was a little scary when you think about all the horrible things I said to that boy [laughs] not two months before that.
But that gives you an idea of how many of them looked at the experience—was something to go through. It was finite. They did it. They knew they were changed. For us, as the trainers, the vast majority of us were already set in our career goals. We already knew where we were headed, so it was a job to be done. Most of us took a great deal of pride in the job. Sometimes it was challenging. By and large, I can say this from my own experience. and I stay in touch with five or six folks from those times. Everyone shares relatively similar experiences. Both the joys and the frustrations. So, uh, it’s a job.
Barnes
There’s[sic] two features of the base we just want to kind of get your feedback on, and then you can let us know how they relate either to the base or to what you did. So that would be the Blue Jacket, USS Blue Jacket…
Kidd
Right.
Barnes
And then the Grinder.
Kidd
[laughs] I almost forgot about that being called the “Grinder.” The USS Blue Jacket was, at the time I was there, pretty much an unused reminder—mainly because by 1989, it had been there for 30-odd years. It was broken down, unsafe. Never went on board it. Never took recruits on board it. Because it would have cost money to fix, and that’s not what money got put into. But it was a little bit of humor for all of us there, because the Blue Jacket was physically located at one end of the “Grinder.”
The “Grinder” was—I think was a huge patio space—cement, you name it. But it was located there. you could see it. And it was nothing to march around in, or run around in, as the case may be. And there were people from the base maintenance crews who had the job of keeping it painted, and all the rest of that. But other than that, it really did not have—while I was there, and subsequent, because the base closed two years after I left—three years after I left. It really was nothing more than an ornament. Before that, I understood they used to do some facsimile training onboard simply to say, “This is a boat.” “This is a rope.” “This is a gang-way.” “This is a flag or pennant.” [laughs] And that’s fine. You need those things, but it was not used for that in my time.
Now the “Grinder”, on the other hand—one of the primary tools of training for all the boot camps—for all the services boot camps—particularly here, is marching. Marching means that you get a group of people together, you teach them to march in step as one. Their arms and legs moving at the same, each—left arm, left leg. Everything moving at the same time, to a certain rhythm, dressed a certain way. And the “Grinder” was where you taught them to do that. And you yelled at them a lot. And, you know, you played loud music—loud marshal music, in a lot of cases. In other cases, you played some serious, four-beat, rock’n’roll, because it all has the same beat if you get them to march to it. The fun—I won’t say fun, because it certainly wasn’t for them [laughs].
After the first six hours, if you’re out in the middle of the sun, it’s far less entertaining than you might think. But this is Orlando. It gets hot here. Certain times of the year you’d be out on the “Grinder”—you’d had companies who were out on the “Grinder” every day, or at least in the evening, for two or three hours at a time. At other times of the year, when heat and humidity didn’t allow for it, because of heat stress factors, you had companies that never—did not spend a single day on the “Grinder,” simply because physical requirements were such. they weren’t allowed to. They may have gone through basic swim instruction at some point, where they had to cross the “Grinder” to get to the training facility, but other than that, they simply never saw it. Which made a challenge for company commanders like me who had to teach them how to march. “It’s where?” [laughs] “Oh, okay.”
So—but you would also use the “Grinder” as a—let’s call it a “training tool.” As in, the companies would be in their particular barracks, and as a company commander, perhaps you were dissatisfied for some reason with the level or performance, or moral, or whatever other particular instance. So you might send your people out the back door, out onto the “Grinder”, and have them run around the “Grinder,” uh, at sometimes two to three times, and then report back in. And woe unto to anyone who fell behind [laughs]. And so you could use those as disciplinary, but…
BarnesSo were there any other structures on the base that you remember vividly that you used a lot? or recruits may have remembered vividly, because they trained a lot?
Kidd
Well, uh, classroom building, which I believe is still there. uh, but you had other than the cafeteria, uh, which of course was the primary spot for all of the recruits. Um, you had the firefighting command. You had what’s call WSMP, uh, which was—I hate to say water sports—water systems and physical training, which was the gymnasium and pool. Those are pretty much what the recruits saw for those eight weeks. They simply did not spend that much time unsupervised or as individuals. They just weren’t given it. Once they left that—that recruit training command portion of thing, there was a lot of the base to be seen, but they were not allowed to do that while they were recruits.
Barnes
Now did you ever spend on NTC as a non-recruit commander?
Kidd
Yes.
Barnes
And what did you do in that capacity?
Kidd
I taught at nuclear power school.
Barnes
Okay.
Kidd
I taught remedial mathematics. neat stuff like that. Kids who had, or for young men—it was always young men—who had signed up to go into nuclear power training. It was very high-end stuff for them. Some of them needed refreshers in their math in order to be able to handle the theoretical stuff in there, but that was just like being a classroom teacher anywhere. Normal 8-5 working hours. Monday through Friday.
Barnes
Now, at the time, was that the only nuclear training facility in the…
Kidd
It was the initial.
Barnes
The initial?
Kidd
The training pipe. I’m going to use the word “pipeline,” which many people recognize—as in like, there are varying points along there. Uh, in the military in particular, there’s always ongoing training, regardless of what you’re in. Recruit training is simply the very beginning of the pipeline. From that point on, regardless whether you’re going to be a, uh—if you’re planning on just going out as an E-1 to a ship someplace—“Congratulations. You’re gone.”
You are a seaman apprentice or a seaman recruit is what a[sic] E-1 is. You are going to go through additional training, just to teach you what a boat is all about. That’s called “apprentice training,” and that was also at Naval Training Center. It was separate from recruit training. Uh, for more technical schools, then there was[sic] various pipelines.
For example, nuclear power, which was one of the most restricted—restrictive—qualifications. Um, for someone to get into it they had to—well, of course, they had to be a high school graduate, but on top of that, they had to have certain score on Navy-wide entrance tests when they came in. Um, certain behavioral records, etc. Uh, we used to go by what we called AFQT scores—Armed Forces Qualifying Test. They were scored on a 0 to 99 basis. You could not be accepted into nuclear power program, unless you scored above 90 on that test. Trust me. there were a lot of people that didn’t. I trained recruits that were as low as 13. You can imagine the level of literacy for those folks.
Um, so—but at any rate, you also had, uh, initial training for electronic weaponry. Uh, electronic—you had training for folks going into, uh, basic seamanship, like boatswain’s mates school. A variety of things took place on the Naval Training Center Command. These are all initial and secondary schools, prior to sending someone out as qualified in that particular field to, uh, command. And some of them might move on to a different training command. When you spoke about the Nuclear Power Training Command, it—about a two, at that time—it took roughly two and half years from the time someone came in, as a recruit, to the time they actually went to a command to be around—to a seagoing command that had a nuclear reactor on it. So some of the training is intense.
Barnes
And you were at the base at the infancy of the simulator training? Was that beginning to develop why you were there?
Kid
Yes. It was. Uh, first off, all military training for years, has been—there’s simulation involved. You need to understand what simulation is, of course. Not all of it is high-tech electronic gizmo games. And that’s—you mentioned earlier the Blue Jacket was a stab at simulating seagoing environment. Um, many of the, uh—for example, I give the example of firefighting school as the single best example.
Oh, I almost forgot, because you earlier asked about one that the recruits would remember. They all remembered the tear gas chamber. All of them. And that’s another example of simulation, because, uh—well, for firefighting, of course, you would walk people through and train them in class about the basics of actual firefighting skills. Then you would walk them through donning the shipboard firefighting gear—boots, heavy jackets, facemask, oxygen breathing apparatus, this, that, and the other thing. Put them on fire hoses, put them into a building, and light controlled fires. Then have trained groups operate the hoses in order to work those. Firefighter is a major, major skill that is consistently trained onboard ships all the time. For the obvious reasons that you don’t call the fire department in the middle of the ocean. So [laughs] that’s kind of—so when you talk simulation, obviously there’s[sic] varying levels of simulation and varying degrees of realism. The more realistic you can make the—the training more effective it was. Does that answer that question for you?
Barnes
Yes. It does. Thank you. So when you left—you left in 1993?
Kidd
Yes.
Barnes
Was that your final year in the Navy or did you have another assignment?
Kidd
Oh. No. From there I went out to Guam. I was attached originally to a ship that was getting ready to be decommissioned. Um, the refrigerator services ship that was being decommissioned. A ton of fun. The ship was already 40 years old and, if you can imagine driving a car that’s 40 years old, now [laughs] drive a ship that’s 40 years old. It’s got a few miles on it. But, uh, one of the problems with a ship that’s 40 years old is that it’s got a lot of things on there that were older than 40 years old, including asbestos and this, that, and the other thing, so which I was part and parcel of discovering. So subsequent to that, I thought it was time to stop being Navy, and the Navy agreed with me, but fortunately it hasn’t killed me yet.
Barnes
Now did you return to this area immediately after leaving the Navy?
Kidd
No.
Barnes
Or you just settled here?
Kidd
Um, two years later, I returned here. I owned a home here I had bought. The fact of the matter is that Central Florida is a beautiful place in comparison to a lot of other places. Um, Orlando was a medium-sized city, uh, so it didn’t have quite the problems of the [Washington,] D.C. area or San Diego[, California], or some of the other places I lived at. Sun always shone and I had this odd thing about I was going to learn to play golf. That lasted about two days [laughs].
Barnes
I can help you with that, if you decide to change your mind
Kidd
[laughs].
Barnes
So what were your initial thoughts when you heard that NTC Orlando was closing?
Kidd
I wasn’t concerned about it at all. Um, largely because for me, my experiences in the Navy were pretty broad. Um, while many people—if you were career Navy and worked all the way through retirement, which would be 20 years, at least, uh, you were stationed at multiple commands. Lots of them. And that meant that things came and went—people you knew, people you were intense, great friends with for a short period of time. You lost track of shortly thereafter, simply because you were separated.
So, uh, loosing Naval Training Center Orlando, largely because it wasn’t on the ocean anywhere—it was just a set of buildings—really wasn’t a whole lot different than any other set of buildings any other place. And of course, the Navy did not get rid of recruit training. They simply consolidated it all up in Michigan—or Illinois, rather. So it was never about the location. It was all about the process.
Barnes
What do you think is the Navy’s legacy to the Central Florida region?
Kidd
A lot of folks are unaware that Central Florida is the location of the second largest group of retired military—military retirees—in the nation. It tends to concentrate a lot of people here. The fact that we had the Navy base here for so long is really a very vital part of that. Um, and those retirees have a very strong commitment to the values they were trained in, and they live and work with those every day. They bring that as part of the palate of colors that is here in Central Florida. Um, people who have a strong memory of learning about responsibility, decency, reliability, ethics, in general, and that shared commitment—those shared values. They live here and there’s a lot of them.
So the effect of that command, that physical base, and the people that worked there is something that will—that doesn’t only exist now, but it’s going to echo for quite a while. Um, that, uh, is something that the Orlando and Central Florida community should be very proud of and they should recognize that that contribution, while again, because we’re not located on the water, people don’t necessarily grasp. But for the number of retirees here, who came specially because—either returned because of that, or came because there was that presence here—the impact is really immeasurable.
Barnes
So as a former recruit commander, or as a former recruit, why do you think someone would want to come back? Or what do you think someone would like to see or be reminded of if they came and visited the Lone Sailor Memorial [Project]?
Kidd
Being. First place, there’s[sic] several Lone Sailor monuments throughout the nation, and this is a great location for them. And in the public mind, uh, whether you’ve been in the service or not, uh, that image is rather striking. It implies a lot of things. For the people who served, the people who were Navy and went through basic training—regardless of where they went, but specifically here in Orlando—it reminds them of a dramatic change in their lives where they took control of themselves and their destiny. They made that choice to say, “I don't want to do what I was doing. I’m going to be different.” And they learned a new value system. They learned to be part of a generations-old organization that had a history they could be proud of, and that they could carry with them and they could then share with their own friends, children, subsequent generation. It means a lot. It means a lot to a lot of people. and far more than just movies that no longer get watched [laughs]. The fact that we trained a lot of people—we sent a lot of people out to represent and defend the nation—some did not come back—needs to be remembered. We need to be reminded of why that happened. What those values where. And why they’re still important.
Barnes
Very good. Is there anything I missed that you think would be relevant either to the project or to your story?
Kidd
I appreciate that y’all took time to ask me the questions. No. I think we pretty much covered everything we'll do on camera.
All
[laughs]
Barnes
Well, very good. We appreciate your time.
Kidd
Not a problem.
Hazen
Today is March 7th, 2014. I am interviewing Mr. Henry "”Hank” [Carl] Okraski, who spent 32 years in government service, 10 of which were working in the Senior Executive Service. He was the Director of Research and Engineering and the Deputy Technical Director for Naval Air Warfare Training Systems Division, or NAWCTSD.
My name is Kendra Hazen and with me is Amanda Hill. We are interviewing Mr. Okraski as a part of the [UCF Community] Veterans History Project, and as research for the Lone Sailor Memorial Project. We are recording the interview at the National Center for Simulation Offices, located in the Partnership III building, um, in UCF’s [University of Central Florida] Research Parkway in Orlando, Florida.
Hazen
Mr. Okraski, will you start us off by telling us when and where you were born?
Okraski
Yes. First off, Kendra, thank you very much for the opportunity to speak to you today. You’re really representing a worthwhile cause, and I appreciate the opportunity. I was born in Utica, New York, in 1936—January 22nd, actually.
HazenThank you. Can you tell us a little bit about what your parents did while you were growing up?
Okraski
Yes. Uh, they both worked actually. I was a latchkey child. I think one of the first. And they worked in a florist—a wholesale florist enterprise. My mother cut flowers. My father hauled coal and, uh, manure and all sorts of things like that to keep the, uh, flowers growing.
So I was pretty much on my own. I had, um, the run of the neighborhood, if you will. Actually, I wasn’t born on the “other” side of the tracks. I was born on the tracks, because the railroad cars went right down the street where I lived, right next to my bedroom.
Hazen
I’ll bet that was a little loud.
Okraski
It was. At like two in the morning, they would be bumping the cars back and forth and, uh—and it was, uh—I got used to it after a while.
Hazen
Did you grow up with brothers and sisters?
Okraski
No. I was the only child.
Hazen
Can you tell us a little about your early education?
Okraski
Yes. I was, uh, trained by nuns. I attended the St. Patrick’s Grammar School for eight years, um, where I learned the value of discipline and, uh, how to pay attention in class. And I really experienced the nuns, um, caring for us. They wanted us to get ahead. I was really appreciative for that. So I went to St. Patrick’s School for eight years, and then I went to Utica Free Academy, which is the local high school in Utica, for four years. Graduated from there in 1953. I worked a year thereafter and then when on to Clarkson University which is in Upstate New York—in Potsdam, New York.
Hazen
Um, and during that time, did you have any members of your family who were in any of the [U.S.] Armed Services?
Okraski
I had uncles. Several of my uncles were in, uh, in the service. Um, one of my uncles, uh, John—he was at Guadalcanal[, Solomon Islands]. He was in the 1st Marine Corps Division. earned three Purple Hearts while he was there. He’s still alive. I communicate with him just about every week.
And I had other uncles that were there in the South Pacific and in Europe. Um, some—one was in Normandy[, France]—[the] Normandy invasion. So yes. I’ve come from a family—now, my father was not in the Armed Services. He was working on a farm under the agriculture deferment in those days.
Hazen
Um, what branches were they in? or were they all in the same branch?
Okraski
No. I had one in the [U.S.] Army, one in the [U.S.] Navy and one in the [U.S.] Marine Corps. And I also had another one in the Navy too, who was a deep sea diver. Yeah. with the original bubble heads where they wore the large thing. And, uh, he would repair ships, uh, in Newfoundland[, Canada]. Rather cold, you might say.
Hazen
Um, whatever you were going through Clarkson University, what was your specialty? What was your area of specialty?
Okraski
I majored in Electrical Engineering and I graduated with a Bachelor’s [Degree] in Electrical Engineering.
Hazen
And then from there, what was your first professional experience?
Okraski
Yes. Uh, I was recruited from college to LINK Aviation [Devices, Inc.]. LINK Aviation was located in Binghamton, New York, and they were manufacturers of simulators—primarily flight simulators, at the time. and I always had somewhat of an interest in flight simulators. I might relate to you the first simulator that I ever had?
Hazen
Mmhmm.
Okraski
Okay. Um, I was 11 years old and I would spend summers on a farm. and all we had was radio for entertainment. There was no television, or we didn’t have any movies or anything close by. So radio was the big thing. Every day, I would listen to Jack Armstrong, the All-American Boy. And they had one offering there that if you send, uh—I think it was 15 cents and a box top from Wheaties—they would send you a simulator. So I got the money. I got the Wheaties and I put it together and send it off. And I waited and waited. Every time the rural post delivery man would come by he’d say, “No, sonny. not today.” And nuts. I’d go back. Every day I’d wait for him. Finally, it came and I opened it up and it was a cardboard instrument panel that replicated an aircraft cockpit. It had a control stick. It had a throttle and it had two rudder pedals simulating the aircraft.
So what we did—all of us youngsters, you know, part of the, uh, Jack Armstrong squadron—we would sit on our chairs and set up our cockpits and then listen to the radio. And he would say, “Today we’re going to be flying over the jungles of South America. Look down. You can see the river.” I would look down and I could see that river. You know, because in those days, we said radio was the theatre of the mind. And it really was. We used our imaginations and we could visualize things that weren’t even there. So that was my first simulator. That wetted my appetite. So, then when LINK Aviation recruited me, I was very happy, because I would be working with simulators again.
Hazen
What exactly were your responsibilities when you were at LINK Aviator?
Okraski
Yes. Uh, with LINK, they started us out in, uh, Field Service Organization. So I attended a short course learning how to maintain and operate one of their flight simulators. They called it a “C11” or “Device 2F-2”3 in those days. And it was a basic one seater flight instrument trainer that was used in primary, uh, flight training for the Air Force in my case. And where pilots would learn how to fly instruments. how to do instrument landing. Uh, also how to react to various failures that might occur in the aircraft. So I would help the pilots learn how to go through emergency procedures to save themselves and to save the aircraft. So that was my first job. It entailed traveling throughout the, uh, Southwest, and that was in Oklahoma and Texas—uh, in that area where there are several Air Force bases. And I had an opportunity to visit and work with the various pilots or wannabe pilots in those days. So, that was my first job, Kendra.
Hazen
How long were you there? How long were you with LINK Aviation?
Okraski
Well, I was with LINK Aviation for about four and a half years. Um, what happened was I did a short stint in the Army. I had to go through basic training, um, but I essentially went back to the inactive reserves.[1]
And then LINK transferred me to a number of places, but the most memorable one, I guess, was to Thule [Air Base], Greenland where I spent six months one night. It was dark for the entire period and I was working then on the F-102 aircraft simulator. And so I would help train a pilot, set up all the simulations and train the pilots, um, to do air to air combat maneuvering and air to air intercepts. And it was very, very important, because it was co-located with the ballistic missile early warning site located there at Thule, Greenland, whose antenna was essentially affixed at the Soviet Union at that time, ‘cause we were under, you know, Cold War conditions. So having our pilots trained was very important in the event that anything should happen and they had to scramble. They were in a position to, uh, perform as they were trained.
Hazen
Do you remember what year that was, when you..?
Okraski
Around 1960.
Hazen
Um, and then after your four and a half years with LINK, where did you go next?
Okraski
Yeah. I—I traveled a little bit more with LINK, and I took a job with the Naval Training Device Center, which was located in Port Washington, Long Island[, New York]. And that’s where I took a position as, um, a GS-11 electrical engineer working in the field support of Naval Aviation simulators. It was in a facility that was called a [Gould-]Guggenheim Estate at one time. It was a castle. Actually, it was a castle that was created that was by the Guggenheims and the Gould family years before. So it was quite a thrill to come to work and go into the castle. And, um, it was on an estate that overlooked Long Island Sound and several, several acres. It was beautiful. And our next door neighbor, who—Kendra, you may not recall—was somebody called Perry Como, the singer. So he lived next door—very casual individual and, uh, we would wave as we went on to work in our castle.
Hazen
A castle. Um, what kinds of things were the projects that were being worked on? In addition to what you did, what are some of the different projects that were being worked on there?
Okraski
It was an interesting time, because originally the Naval Training Device Center, which began as the Special Devices Task by Admiral [Luiz] de Florez in 1941, um, expanded its mission to include more than just aviation training. In the beginning, he focused on flight simulators—in the LINK trainer actually grew out of some of the initiatives that were going on there and, uh, Luiz de Florez took the LINK trainer and, uh, modified it for gunnery training. Uh, and other applications that went beyond aviation. They began to get into surface Navy, land warfare, undersea warfare, simulators for all those kinds of things. But the primary thrust was in aviation. So aircrafts such as the P2V [Physical-to Virtual] —oh gosh—the F-3, the A-7, the A-3 intruder. Um, all those aircraft had simulators that were built and being delivered and used by the pilots’ aircrew, uh, to train out in the field.
Hazen
How long were you there in Long Island with them?
Okraski
Yeah. I was there until 1965. 1965. Well, let me back up about six months from there. Earlier, I had bought a house. My wife and I had bought a house out in North Port[, New York], and it was a really, really nice house. It was about all we could afford too. But it was near the water. It was a beautiful place.
Six months later the commanding officer gets on the loud speaker and said, “Ladies and gentlemen, you’re next home will be in Orlando, Florida.” I said, “What? Next home? I already have a home.” But nevertheless, uh, we did move to Orlando, Florida. It was probably the best thing that ever happened to us at the time. We were—it was the beginning of a tremendous growth of simulation and a wonderful career opportunity for me and my friends and co-workers that moved here. And also a wonderful environment for my family to live and grow.
Hazen
Did you know anything about the area before you got down here?
Okraski
No, but they allowed us two visits and at that time in 1965. In 1965, uh, Orlando was a sleepy little town in the orange groves. Uh, we had Gatorland, I think, and, uh, Cypress Gardens.
There was no [Walt] Disney [World]. There was no SeaWorld, Universal [Orlando Resort], etc., etc. It was a sleepy little town. And it was very enjoyable to go out on Sundays and look at homes for sale and, um, take in some of the natural beauties. Some of the—like the Wekiva Springs, uh, which was—was open—open to the public. And there were other springs. Silver Springs [State Park], etc., etc. And the beaches were so close, so it was very, very nice. Very, uh, unspoiled you might say.
Hazen
And when you moved down, um, was it called? It was called the National Center for Simulation yet?
Okraski
No. That’s a whole other outgrowth. Yeah. The Naval Training Device Center changed its name about two or three times.
Hazen
Mmhmm.
Okraski
To where it is today—Naval Air Warfare System—Naval Air Warfare Systems Training System Division. Uh, so we went through an evolution.
Hazen
So when you moved down, what was it?
Okraski
It was still the Naval Training Device Center.
Hazen
Okay.
Okraski
At that time.
Hazen
And what resources was here for them?
Okraski
Nothing.
Hazen
Nothing?
Okraski
Well, the only thing that was here—and this is kind of amusing. You wonder how these things happen. These relocations cause we’re always faced with things like BRAC [Base Realignment and Closure] and justifying movements and what have you. But the truth to be known, a lot of these decisions are totally politically based and what happened was an Air Force activity moved out of the Air Force base here in Orlando. Not McCoy [Air Force Base], but where Baldwin Park is today. Okay. there was an Air Force Reconnaissance Squadron located there. They were relocated and I think part of it was even disestablished. So there was a need to fill the vacuum.
Well, the powers to be—the political powers to be—got together and decided that this little activity up in Port Washington, Long Island, would feel much better if they were located in Florida. So they moved us to Orlando beginning in, uh, 1965. The, uh—many of the buildings were old barracks. Um, they were not air-conditioned. Um, we lived in that kind of a situation where—this was before computers, where you did your own memos and that. So we would draft memos in pen and ink and your sweat would drip on the paper and run as you’re trying to write the memos to, ah, your—your—for business purposes. So it was rather a primitive existence. Although once the Navy got there, they began to refurbish the buildings and we got air conditioning, which worked most of the time. So that made us a lot more comfortable.
But an interesting thing about Orlando too, uh, from a historical stand point, um, when the, um, Normandy invasion was being planned, General [Dwight D.] Eisenhower came to Orlando and actually mocked up the Normandy Beach in one of the orange groves. In other words, he created an—an, uh—an emulation, if you will, of the Normandy Beach head, and he would position ships and whatever on this false floor that essentially was cement looking like the Normandy Beach head. and he would, with his generals, plan their attack moving objects around and developing strategies that they would follow. So that was in Orlando long before the Navy or anybody else got down here to talk about simulation. Can I give you one more historical event?
Hazen
Certainly, yeah.
Okraski
I think it was—the year was 1935 or so. I’d have to verify that, but Luiz De Florez, for whom the building is named out here—the Navy building is the De Florez complex—the Luiz De Florez building. Okay. And as I mentioned earlier, he got simulation off the ground particularly for the Navy beginning in Washington, D.C., but before that, uh, he was involved in the in oil—in oil production. the crack and process and all that. Well, he was honored for his accomplishments—he was a civilian though at that time—uh, by a number of people. one of which was Rollins College here in Winter Park. So he was given an honorary Doctorate degree from Rollins College the same year that Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings, who as you well know, is the author of The Yearling, and Cross Creek, and a few other wonderful novels. So that brought simulation down here again back in the [19]30s. If you believe in pre-destiny or something, you begin to wonder if there isn’t some connection. So, those are a couple other historical points relating to the Orlando area having to do with simulation.
Hazen
And kind of the birth of the idea of it being here.
Okraski
Yes. Yeah.
Hazen
Um, you talked a little bit about what was here when you got here, and the buildings. Can you tell us a little bit about those early days? What were kind of your primary responsibilities when you first got down here? What were some of the main projects that were being worked on?
Okraski
Sure. Um, I, uh—when I came down, I was assigned to the Maintenance Engineering Division. It doesn’t have to do with changing light bulbs or anything like that. What we actually had to do was plan for the logistic support of the simulators, because it was very critical to keep the simulators operating when they’re being used by our pilots, aircrew, and other ships crew, etc. So we had to make sure that they were reliable, maintainable, and we provided an adequate logistic support package to go with each and every simulator that went out the door. And our industry was pretty much, uh, on board when they came to designing in reliability, maintainability, and providing a good logistic support package.
So one of my jobs was to develop the criteria for logistic support and I wrote a document called “Bulletin 40-1,” which identified all the logistic support requirements for simulators that stayed in use for probably 20 years or so that people may even use parts of it today. It was important to do that.
Now, in the process of moving down here, a number of people didn’t want to leave Long Island. They were particularly—they were really happy just to stay there. And I, in turn—I was offered a job at the Space program at the time too. But I elected to come to Florida and stay with our parent organization anyway. So when a number of people didn’t come, it left some room at the top. So that gave me some nice promotion opportunities that I took advantage of and so going, you know, then from a division head to a department head to associate director, etc. I think the move down here kind of enabled that progression quite nicely.
So what I did is—I had a division and we worked very closely with the engineers in designing our systems such that they were maintainable and supportable. And we—the program began to grow quite a bit. Word got around that, “Hey, this simulation stuff must be pretty good. It must be saving a lot of lives and it’s not costing as much as putting airplanes in the air or ships at sea or submarines under the sea.” So the Army—well, they had joined us earlier with what was called the “Army Participation Group,” and, uh, the simulation caught on with them and they began to grow very large. Then the Marine Corps—they came on board. Then the Air Force came on board. So what was just a single entity down here in the Navy became pretty much a joint operation. Joint with a small “j” not a large “J,” ‘cause we’re not really a “joint” organization. We’re, uh—we operate jointly though. And it was amazing of the synergy that was achieved by working together. You know, an engineer working on a tank simulator working alongside an engineer working on an air craft simulator could share technology and experiences and know-how, such that the customers were getting more for their money essentially than if an individual service were doing a procurement of a simulator. And that continues today. Maybe even more so today, because of the large number, the large acquisition program we have here, um, at the, uh, what we call now “Team Orlando.”
Hazen
After it was called the Naval Training Device Center here? What was then the next step?
Okraski
Well, it was renamed Naval Training Systems Center, Naval Training Materials Center, uh, and Naval Training Systems Center, and then it went to, um, Naval Air Warfare Center. The reason for that is that, uh, we changed responsibilities on—we changed, uh, the organization that we reported to over the years. In the beginning, you know, it was like the Bureau of Aeronautics, and then it was Chief [of] Naval Research, and then it went to Chief [of] Naval Materials ,and then to the Naval Air Systems Command—so away and back again. So every time it moved, people felt, “Well, we gotta change the name of that.” So that happened, you know, over several years. so the stationary was taking a hitting. You know, in changing our names and who we reported to over the years, but it appears now that we have a very stable organization under the Naval Air Systems Command and our organization continues to grow down here and they’re doing wonderful things. Saving time, lives, and money every day. See, that’s the beauty of really working with an organization like this, because when you go home at night you realize that you touched the lives of every solider, sailor, Marine, and Coast Guard. You know, and through the efforts of what you’re doing here. You can’t beat that for job satisfaction.
Hazen
Can you give us some specific examples of simulations that happen? Like what does it look like? How does that work? What kinds of things do you have to do on the front end to make it possible?
Okraski
Uh, yes. Um, you know [laughs], I’m not gonna do this. You know, it’s all in here. That was commercial.
Hazen
[laughs]
Okraski
No. I actually—kidding aside—it all begins with the requirements. It all begins with the requirements from the, um, the parent system. Like if it’s an aircraft that you want to build a simulator for, uh, you examine the aircraft. you examine the tasks that have to be conducted by the air crew. And given those tasks, then you can select the media—what media is best to teach. Train those particular tasks. There are some that deal with, like, decision making. Others are procedural and each and every media kinda has their own strength, you know, with which each of the tasks that have been identified.
So normally it goes through some form of task analysis of the operational system and then from there you come up with the media. Uh, you identify the behavioral objectives, come up with the media, and then go about writing the specifications and statements of work for the training system that you intend to have procured or built. So our engineers spend a lot of time writing specification statements of work delineating exactly what the simulator has to look like.
Let’s take for example: what would a flight simulator consist of? Okay. First of all, you’ve got the—the enclosure where the pilot would sit. So you’ve got to make sure all the instruments—all the nobs, and controls, whatever—operate just like the real airplane. So you have to make some decisions how you gonna design that and becomes a systems engineering process to do that. So you design that enclosure with the proper configurations. Then you decide, Well, am I gonna have a visual display? So that the pilot can look out the windscreen and see the real world. If so, there are several choices you have as to what kind of visual system you would put on this. So let’s say you narrow it down to the visual system—maybe it’s a widescreen. The pilot looks out, can look 180 degrees perhaps, and see even through the periphery what’s happening in the real world. And this—the intent is to have it move and behave just like it would if you were flying the aircraft.
Okay. what else do we need? Well, we need some computers to make this thing work. So you get a computing system. You go through that whole exercise again. What’s the proper size, speed, etc. for the computer? Then you say, “Well, should we have motion or not? Should we tilt and move this pilot?” We go through that same process to come up with the motion system. Then you have things we call like “control loading,” and then like when the pilot moves the control stick. Does it feel right? Does it feel like the airplane? Is it, uh, hydraulic, or is it force-fed or whatever—make these kinds of decisions depending on what your requirements are.
So what you do is you take all these components and you integrate them together and you come up with a training system that replicates the function, um—the functions and usually the configuration of the system that you’re trying to simulate. I mean, a true testimony to how well we’ve done our job is when a pilot comes out of a simulator and he or she is draped with sweat and they say, “That was god-awful.” And then you know you’ve achieved some realness, because what we’re looking for here. And, uh, I think the amusement people say it very nicely—is we’re suspending disbelief for a little while. Because you know you’re in a simulator, but if you get all engrossed in the task at hand. You can forget that it’s a simulator—you begin to think that it’s real. And that’s what we want, because then you can train people effectively. You can make decisions under stress even though you’ve created the stress artificially. So that’s kinda how you put it—that’s what a flight simulator would look like. Then you have all sorts of other simulators, uh, besides just aviation, submarines, you might want to teach people how to control a submarine. You know, the driving aspects of it or the weapons system piece, fire control, etc., all those have to be integrated into the overall system. There are full-up systems, there are part-task trainers, entire families of training devices. I’m giving you a crash course here in a very short period of time.
Hazen
That’s perfect.
Okraski
Okay.
Hazen
That’s exactly what I was hoping for. Um, I think you touched a little bit on this next question just through some of those examples that you said but what is the mission—the mission statement of NAWCTSD?
Okraski
Well, see, I’ve been out of there now for a while, because I retired in 1994. Um, but the mission is—and I can just sort of paraphrase—I believe it is to be the principle agent for the acquisition research and logistic support of—of training simulators for the, uh—the Navy and the other services as a side. Something to that effect. But it is—they are the principle activity within the Navy for procuring simulators.
Hazen
And, um, can you tell me a little bit about your time at NAWCTSD? What were some of, uh, your major projects?
Okraski
Sure.
Hazen
And what happened on your watch when you were here?
Okraski
Yeah., I’d love to, ‘cause we, uh, you know—we have a road of accomplishment, I think, over those years while I was here that I’m quite proud of the people that were able to make some real breakthroughs in technology and satisfy the war fighter and the warrior in a way, in a manner, that hadn’t been done before.
I’ll give ya one example: Um, the MILES system, which is the Multiple Integrated Laser Engagement System, was essentially developed in our laboratory at NAWCTSD by a team. The team was headed by a gentleman by the name of Al Marshall. Al Marshall had a better idea on how to teach weapon—team—weapons team engagement and that was the use of lasers. Um, eye safe and totally safe lasers, as opposed to using live ammunition out in the field. So he came up with the whole concept of outfitting soldiers with the laser detectors and this was really the first laser tag, if you will, but it was for the military. He was a Navy engineer doing some work for the Army and the Marine Corps went and bought the MILES system also. So it was a tri-service initiative kicked off by one little team, if you will, working in the, uh, in our laboratory under the Office of Naval Research, uh, task.
Some other things that we did, uh, other than the just the technology growth and the improvement in the fidelity of simulation. You know, visual systems have gotten to be really, really good when it comes to realism, uh, as is motion for that matter. Now, while I was there too, we toyed with the idea of developing deployable trainers. You know, we felt, “Gee, why do we always have to bring people into the school house, put them in a simulator, and then they get deployed out to sea?” And by the time they come back, some of the skills have already perished. I mean, they’re perishable skills to some degree. Why not put the trainers out there where they are?
So along came the whole idea of deployable simulators and mission rehearsal simulators that could be deployed, put on board aircraft carriers and other installations that are closer to the squadrons and the people that actually use them. So, uh, the deployable simulators, I thought, was a really neat technology that was like the next—next energy level above what we had been doing in the past. And—and the same is true in so many other areas too, where a level of realism has increased, uh, tremendously too.
For example—his happened after my watch—so the, um, battle stations 21—the simulator up at Great Lakes where they brought together the entertainment world along with the simulation—military simulation world—and they built a training device for recruits—Navy recruits— that essentially forms the part of their graduation. Their last day. It’s sort of like a hell week, but only compressed into one day, where they’re able to simulate fires on board ship, casualties, injured people, leaks in the bulkhead—all simulated—but like with real water and what looks to be like flames. Again, borrowing on the Disney magic and any other theme parks that are here. And it became so—it’s so realistic, in fact, that it’s hard to replicate what they’ve done up there.
Another, uh, thing that we did, way back when—or “back in the day,” as they say today—was pier-side training along the same notion of, you know, why bring people in to a classroom, or why go to sea and train all the time, uh, because that that can be expensive. We came up with the pier-side trainers which essentially are, um—well, they’re trailer-based simulations. More like stimulators than simulators. But anyway, we take these trailers, and we plug them into a ship that’s tied up pier-side, and through cables and running alongside and into the ship. we’re able to generate signals, put them into the ship, so that the people that are at their operating stations see everything as though they’re out at sea. We can create targets in that trailer. You know, create targets and threats and then the people in their battle station. or in their normal working stations, they can look at their radars, their sonars, their fire control, and they see targets like they’re at sea and they give commands and they run through the exercise as though they are out at sea. So that was a family of pier-side trainers that started to be quite successful.
And then the next step was imbedded training where we were able to imbed some training features into the actual parent system, whether it be an aircraft or a ship. I know one particular radar, for example, that when they go out at sea they can generate targets and practice radar movements simulating those targets that are out there. There are no targets in the water, but they—the ship’s crew—think that there is, because we can generate those and they look at their scopes, the water, and they see actual targets that aren’t real. So, you know, tech, and…
This this happened outside of my experience at NAWCTSD, but it began at NAWCTSD, and that’s the whole notion of using virtual reality for training. Um, one of the things that Dr. Hayes—Dr. Bob Hayes—had a project with his team called “V Sub,” to where they simulated the gentlemen in the submarine at the conning tower that was steering a submarine through a canal or channel, say. And they did that through virtual reality. They would put the head-mounted display on the individual and that individual would see the banks of the canal, would see other ships, beacons, markers. and then through a headset communicate with what would’ve been the people steering the submarine when in actuality it was a voice recognition system that was taking action based on the commands being given by the individual. So—and that was a very, very neat, neat program.
And later on, after I retired and I—I worked, uh, with a company General Dynamics—actually Veridian, at the time. Um, I was like a support contractor to them—came up with this notion of maybe we can do something for deaf and hearing-impaired kids using that same technology. At that time Congressman [Ira William “Bill”] McCollum[, Jr.] was very active and interested in what we’re doing, and he was able to get some support money for us to build a virtual reality system for Lake Sybelia Elementary School up in Maitland. There they have a high percentage of deaf and hearing-impaired children, and what initiated this was the principal coming to one of our NCS [National Center for Simulation] meetings.
At the time, I believe I was chairman of the board at NCS and we got all through with our meeting and it was an open meeting. He said, “Yes, sir. I’m, um, a principal of Lake Sybelia Elementary School. What can you do to help us?” “What’s your problem, sir?” He says, “Here’s my problem. We have a large group of deaf and hearing-impaired kids and our teachers spend most of their time with living skills—teaching them how to do very simple things. They don’t have time to get into reading and arithmetic and things they’re supposed to be learning. What can you do to help us?”
So we moved out and we got all the support we could. We put together a team. We got some money and we did build a virtual reality system. and the kids loved it, because they would get immersed in the system. And we simulated, for example, the question of how to cross the street safely. So we would simulate trucks going by, so they could see them and we even had the odor of diesel so they knew it was a truck and a little bit of rumble, because we fixed the seat so it would vibrate. And, uh, so they learned to go to the cross-walk and go through the green light and whatever. We had stranger danger, danger stranger with an intruder coming in the classroom—in the classroom—on the school grounds. and, uh, we taught them what to do if they saw a stranger that didn’t look good. We taught them how to, uh, go to and order in a fast food restaurant.
Many times these kids—they’re not looking for recognition. They’re not looking for attention. so if they order the wrong thing usually they’ll just take it and eat it—whatever it is—or if they get the wrong change back, they’re not gonna make a thing out of it. They just by and large don’t want to be recognized like that. So we taught them how to go to a fast food restaurant and order. We gave them the menu. We told them how to order. They made change and we gave it back to them and whatever. We did that. We did fire in the home. How to get out of the building if it’s on fire, etc. So we taught them all those things using that technology of virtual reality and, to me, that one probably one of the most rewarding projects that I ever got involved with.
Hazen
That’s really cool.
Okraski
Yeah. Yeah. Fun too. Like I tell people, I never worked a day in my life. And that’s true. if you enjoy what you’re doing, you never will work a day in your life.
Hazen
One of my questions is about challenges. In creating the different simulations for—I guess it’s kind of a broad question—what are some kind of reoccurring challenges that you come into when you go to put together one of these simulations?
Okraski
Well, of course, it’s—we always think in terms of cost and schedule and performance, and cost is always an issue. Particularly, if you’re dealing in an area where you cannot define precisely, exactly what you want, and so there’s opportunities there for some, some, uh, you know, movement within that—you know, feasible window of opportunity. So many times cost-growth is an issue—trying to keep the cost within the budget.
And the same is true with time. Technology changes so rapidly, and usually you want the most current technology in your system. So there might be some delays attributed to that and then when you get to new technology, then there’s a learning curve or whatever. So time can be a problem.
And performance, uh, can be an issue too, because you really have to understand what the user wants. And it can be sometimes vaguely stated and our engineers and others—our education specialists and psychologists—will write a specification and it may not be exactly what the, uh, expectations of the eventual user. And then you have turn over personnel. you know, the user has different people coming on board, because of rotation. The new person might say, “That’s nice, but here’s what I really want.” So that can drive cost and schedule a little wacko too.
So those are some challenges and, and the technology itself. You do want to have everything that’s as current as can be, because you’ve got that whole issue of user acceptance to deal with.
Kids today have the latest bells and whistles, and it’s true in the service too. I mean, all the younger people coming in the service usually are familiar with and have used the latest technology. So, if you come along and give them something that’s lesser than that, they’re not going to be happy and chances are they may not even use it. So you’ve got to be very accommodating to the, uh, you know—the generations as they’re coming along to what you deliver.
Um, I can give you a good example of that. Today, gaming—you know, we’re using gaming technology in some of the simulator developments, like in decision making and some of those, uh, training devices. They’re actually using off-the-shelf games, um, or it can be just the gaming engines that are being used in the simulations. S, we have a whole new generation now that are familiar with gaming, but we have others that are not familiar with gaming. So we’ve got to bring the new people in as quickly as we can to make sure that we’re satisfying the generational needs of our—our service people. So keeping up with the technology and incorporating that in our latest devices is going to be a challenge. So, um, there are a few challenges. There are other challenges—I’m sure—but, uh, those are a few.
Hazen
Thank you. Um, and even in that you talked a little bit about this next question—can you tell me about what you think the future looks like for simulation? Specifically here at NAWCTSD. what’s the future look like with what kinds of things they might get into? [00:42:47.25]
Okraski
Yeah. these are exciting times, because every time I think that we’re here now—it just goes off onto another curve. I—I liken this to, um, a growth curves that I—I—I’ve been developed for other things, like tennis rackets. Tennis rackets, you know, started out as wood rackets, and then they went to aluminum rackets. Then they went to composite rackets. And every time they go from one technology to another, you get off a growth curve that looks like it’s saturated onto a new growth curve that begins to get saturated and you continue to do that. And that’s where we are right now in simulation and training.
With—as I mentioned, gaming, for example—it’s opening up a whole new area for us to investigate. An area too that I think is gonna get some attention and that is the fidelity of simulation is determined by brain activity. To be able to measure brain activity in an individual while varying fidelity might give us some indication as to how well we are conveying information to the trainee based on their mental arousal or other, uh, symptoms that would be evident through brain wave measurement. For example, we might take a look at a low fidelity simulator—as opposed to a high fidelity simulator, as opposed to an aircraft and do the same measurement on individuals—and just take a look at what kind of distraction or what kind of concentration takes place in each of those situations.
So I think there’s, you’re gonna see more activity in the brain—brain measurement area. I’m not up to the point yet where they’re gonna put probes into the head and with one throw of the switch you’ve got it. That—that’s maybe for my son or somebody else to pick up on that, but, um, yeah. I think that’s a very, very good area to and people are doing that now to some degree. Not full-scale yet, but they are looking at it.
Um, other areas—I mentioned gaming. Again, I think being able to tell a story better. Being able to tell a story of how a simulator is included in the overall scenario or experience that you’re trying to create. The attractions do that really well. They prepare you for it, you know, on The [Twilight Zone] Tower of Terror. you’re terrorized before anything happens for that matter. Or if you go to the Cape [Canaveral], over here where they have the new [NASA Space Shuttle] Atlantis [Exhibit] and you go through the space mission. they get you all prepped for the mission that you’re going to be involved with. They know how to tell a story, and I think we need to do that too with our training for our military personnel. To be able to integrate what we’re doing more into the overall scenario that we’re trying to establish. Yeah.
Hazen
Thank you.
Okraski
Okay.
Hazen
And one of my last questions is about the changes that have happened in Orlando because of NAWCTSD’s presence. You kind of described for us what it was a little bit like when simulation kind of got started here. Can you tell us a little bit about how it’s changed? How Orlando has changed because of NAWCTSD’s presence here?
Okraski
Yeah. I—I think we need to look at it from a little larger picture first. And that is, when we first came down here, there were no companies that—except for Lockheed Martin—that had anything to do with simulation. But then, as simulation began to grow, all these other companies began to come down and wanted to be close to the acquisition agencies—the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard, to some degree too. They want to be close to it, so they begin to orbit essentially the Team Orlando organization that we’ve been talking about to where Team Orlando now accounts for billions of dollars of acquisition of simulators and this accounts for some 27,000 direct employees working with the [U.S.] Defense Department in modeling and simulation.
Now it’s spread. We’re no longer just defense. We’re into entertainment, homeland security, transportation, medical—all using simulation. And we don’t know how large that piece is, but if the other piece is 27,000, it’s equal to or greater than probably. So what went from a handful of people moving down here in 1965—yeah. We might have 50,000 people now involved in simulation, one way or another.
Tremendous impact on the tax base in Central Florida., the average salary is about 70,000 dollars a year. people working in the simulation industry and the educational system has been totally responsive. The University of Central Florida, what were our community colleges now are four year colleges that have been set up. We can get a Master’s or Doctorate degree in simulation through UCF. Our high schools now—we have a curriculum in modeling and simulation that NCS put together. It’s on our website. It just seems to be no end to this and that’s good. You know where the long pole in the tent is to all this? Teachers. We don’t have teachers than can teach at the K[indergarten] through 12 level modeling and simulation and let the kids know about the careers that are available and why they need to study STEM [Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics]. you know, cause that’s the basis for our business in modeling and simulation is STEM. But it has—it has grown almost exponentially, and I expect it to continue to grow too. In spite of cut backs or other barriers we might see, we’re in a growth, uh—we’re in a growth community right now.
Hazen
Thank you. Um, do you have any other thoughts? Kind of wrapping up our interview. Any final thoughts about simulation and, um, its benefits? How it benefits us?
Okraski
Well, we know about the military. We also know that it’s being infused now into the medical world. Our Lake Nona [Medical City] complex down here—Medical City—has a number of simulations for like endoscopic, other forms of surgery, the Da Vinci simulations, and all. Um, the VA hospital. They all have some form of simulation. so, um, the spectrum has opened up as to the application of simulations. It provides for a wonderful career for individuals that want to get in to a well-paying, yet very, very satisfying career. and we need to really get that information out—get that out to the youngsters so they do they do begin to think of it as a viable career and they can stay in Florida and enjoy what we have here in doing so.
Hazen
Thank you.
Okraski
My pleasure, Kendra. Thank you for taking the time.
Hazen
Thanks.
[1] Individual Ready Reserve (IRR).
Originally created by Andrew Glen Weeks and Doris McClendon, and published by the University of Central Florida Libraries Special Collections and University Archives.
Weeks
Alright. Today is April 11th, 2014. I am interviewing Doris [“Dee”] McClendon who served in the U. S. Navy. We are interviewing Mrs. McClendon as part of the UCF [University of Central Florida] Community Veterans’ History Project and as research for the creation of the Lone Sailor Memorial Project. We are recording this interview at UCF. Will you please start off by telling us where you were born?
McClendon
I was born in Miami, Florida, Andrew.
Weeks
And what year was that?
McClendon
I was born in 1958.
Weeks
What did your parents do for a living?
McClendon
My dad was a laborer and my mom didn’t work so she was kind of like a stay at home mom. She did kind of odd and in things. Clean houses or you know [inaudible]. It was kind of like a—I guess you would say like a cleaning lady type of thing—but yeah. As far as a full-time job, no, she didn’t work. She stayed at home.
Weeks
Do you have any siblings?
McClendon
Yes. three brothers and three sisters. I am the second oldest of seven children. There are six of us now. I have a sister that passed away in 2009.
Weeks
And where did you go to school?
McClendon
I went to school. Elementary school—Pine Villa Elementary School. I went to Mays Junior High School and South Dade Senior High School. All in Miami, Florida.
Weeks
Did you do anything in between school and joining the Navy?
McClendon
Just a summer job I worked. Obviously I was a full-time student and then for the summer, I would do odds and in things. Summer jobs, [inaudible] type of things, but my first real job was of course the military.
Weeks
And when was that?
McClendon
In [19]76.
Weeks
‘76. Why did you choose the Navy specifically?
McClendon
I chose the Navy, because—and I’ll tell you the story of how I actually joined the military and I’ll never forget it. We were—I was at a high school pep rally. We actually had a Navy recruiter come to the pep rally and of course a recruiter’s job is to recruit. So he came and we were all sitting there and kind of just talking—all the kids and stuff—and he actually just walked across the stage to the podium and there was something about him that really struck me. I liked the way he presented himself. I loved the uniform. The ribbons stood out and he was selling and I bought it. I was really impressed. Of course, obviously—and I guess by the same token, it could have been the [United States] Army. But there was something about him and at that point I made the decision then to join the military. Of course, my parents supported that and that’s really how I got there.
Weeks
Do you have any other family members in the service?
McClendon
Yes. My brother, Michael. United States Army. My son actually is [in the] United States Army and my daughter is [in the] United States Air Force, and of course my husband United States Navy.
Weeks
All around. So, I take it your family was pretty supportive.
McClendon
Absolutely. Absolutely, they were. And actually, my plan was, after I graduated high school—South Dade Senior High—my plan was to go to the University of Miami. That’s where I was actually slated to go, but that recruiter really changed my mind. I remember after his spiel, I went up to talk to him and said, “You know what? If I didn’t have plans to go to college, I would join the Navy.” And he says[sic], “Well, you have the best of both worlds. You can still do the military and still get your college degree.” And I said, “Wow. The best of both worlds.” And he said, “How would you like to go to college in Hawaii or wherever the military may send you?”
And I tell you what, it really came full circle. My very first assignment after basic training was Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. I know. Everything just fell in place. It was meant to be. Best decision. Best decision I ever made. I ever made. So—and of course, I was still able to go to school. I worked. And of course, when military didn’t call, when I didn’t have duties or assignments there, I would go to school at night. I did have the best of both worlds.
Weeks
Where did you attend basic training?
McClendon
Basic training was right here at Recruit Training Command in Orlando, Florida.
Weeks
And what were you trained to do for your career in the Navy?
McClendon
I made it known in the beginning, because I was always was fascinated with law. I grew up watching Perry Mason. So I grew up in shows about law and order and jag. All this stuff really fascinated me. So my plan was to go to college, get a college degree, and go to law school. So that was my plan. But since my plan was changed, I went into the military. Of course, I went in without a college degree so I started as an E[nlisted Rank]-1, but I made it known—my very first assignment—I made it known that that’s what I wanted to do after basic training and then what I did was—when I enlisted—I enlisted with guaranteed school. So I just made it known early on that that’s what I wanted.
It was actually after basic training—of course I went to administrative school, because you have to start there—but from there, I went to my very first assignment. Made it known that I wanted to be a paralegal or the military—they’re called legalmen. I was sent to school there. After school, that’s the career I followed and to this day, I am still doing the same thing, although retired from the military. I’m at the courthouse and I’m doing the exact same thing. Working on the second retirement so to speak.
Weeks
Did you have any experiences here in Orlando before you came for training?
McClendon
No. Did I have any experiences in Orlando before I came? No. But you know what? Growing up in my household, obviously chores was[sic] not unique to me. Getting up in the morning and making my bed— that was a requirement in my household. Washing dishes, mopping the floor, all of that, none of that.
And of course, coming from Florida, the weather didn’t bother me, because—I know to some of the recruits, especially coming from cold climates, to come to Florida in the heat, none of that bothered me. I didn’t have any problems with recruit training. Didn’t have any problems taking orders or any of that. And that was instilled just as a child.
My parents, you know—they were parents. We were just taught early on to do what you’re told. Be respectful. You don’t work, you don’t eat. Obviously those types of things. Again, chores were not foreign to me. So in the military, first thing you did when you get up, you get that bunk made up and those corners better be tight. Obviously, they had to teach me how to make the corners tight. But making up my bed, I was used to doing that. To this day, I get up out of the bed, first thing I do. I made it up. It’s just instilled in me. Wonderful experience, the military was.
Weeks
Tell me about your first impression arriving at training.
McClendon
My first impression of course—it was very scary. It was very scary, because here I am— I’m not under my parents’ roof. I’m under Uncle Sam’s roof. And I get off the bus, and oh my gosh—company commanders. They were just that. Company Commanders.
So it was a scary situation, because I arrived here, it was late, late, late in the evening and I guess just the fear of the unknown. I was scared. I was scared. But at the end of the day when it all washed up, it was all for nothing. It was all for nothing. Then, of course, lonely. Here I am, I left my mom and dad back in Miami, all my sisters and brothers. Now I’m on this bus. I just got on this bus and there’s[sic] 80 women. We’re all scared. You could tell we’re all scared. Some of them crying, some of them not. But it really worked out. It worked out. Yeah.
Weeks
What were your primary responsibilities?
McClendon
At basic training?
Weeks
Yeah.
McClendon
Do whatever they say do. That was my primary responsibility. And of course, obviously it was very structured. We had PT—physical fitness. We had studies. So we had training time physically and we had training time mentally. So we were taught what the standing orders were. We were taught the chain of command structure. So we were taught all of that and that’s the purpose of it to prepare you for the fleet. To prepare you to walk outside the gate and be prepared to defend your country, but all along, obviously it’s a learning process.
You don’t learn everything in basic training. You don’t learn everything. So because basic training was six and a half to eight weeks. There is no way you’re going to learn about any military in six to eight weeks, but it was all a learning process. It’s just like with your job. You’re not going to start a job, and in six weeks, know everything there is to know. I guess some people may do that, but I didn’t pick up that quick. But it was a learning process but you’re equipped with the basics for sure.
Weeks
What was your impression of other recruits?
McClendon
You know what, Andrew? At first, I would look at them and my heart would go out to a lot of them, but we were all in the same boat. We were all scared. We all didn’t know what was going to happen. Of course, my recruiter prepared me. My recruiter didn’t tell me that, “Okay, Dee. When you get off the bus, there will be a red carpet there and they’re going to walk you down the carpet. They’re gonna lead you to the…” So my recruiter didn’t tell me that. I was prepared to be broken down individually and be raised up with the team, with the unit.
So when I got off that bus, it was all about Dee, but when I left, I wasn’t that way. It was about that person in that bunk next to me who would probably have to defend my back one day. So it was all about that. So I realized the purpose was to break you down individually so it’s not about self. A lot of soldiers and sailors are depending on you to know your job and they’re depending on you. You know, as far as support goes. So I did take a look at a lot of the recruits and we were all scared but, by the end of that basic training, who would have known? Who would have known? Yeah and a lot of those—we’re best friends today. A lot of those contacts, I still have them in my address book and we’re very good friends to this day. We just kept in contact.
Weeks
Wow. Was there any kind of social life on base then?
McClendon
Yes. There was. Now, in basic training, there was no social life. You didn’t have any time for anything. So, no. No social life in basic training, because it was all about preparation, preparation, preparation. You lived for mail call—to get a letter from home. You lived for that. But no there was no social life whatsoever. That didn’t begin.
Actually for me, there was no social life actually as I got more acclimated and knowing my duties. Of course, every duty station was a different assignment. It was a different location, different people, different bosses, different staff, but eventually, as you get more comfortable—I started to get more comfortable as years progressed, of course. After basic training, my very first duty station as an E-1. I made number one and I’m looking at my boss who has all these stripes on his arm. I’m scared half to death. I’m scared half to death. But all of that was for nothing. Met the best people and the support that you get is just—I can’t even begin to explain it.
But yeah. social life didn’t begin until after I had had some years under my belt, because I spent all my time studying, because my goal was—and I knew in basic training that I was going to retire. I just knew it and my goal was, Dee, while you’re here, we should make this work for you. You wanted to go to school. You’re gonna go to school. And I was able to do everything. All my goals. I was able to do everything that I had on my list. I knew I was gonna retire day one. I was scared to death, but I knew. I woke up that next morning and said, you know what, I’ll be here for 20 years. I will.
Weeks
Wow.
McClendon
Mmhmm. I was just that comfortable with that. I’ve never regretted the decision. I’ve never woken up and said, Oh my gosh. Why did I do this?
And there have been times where, you know, I’ve had to leave my kids and when what I was saying—I was just so fortunate that—I mean, I eventually married the love of my life who’s also in the military. And back then, we were just fortunate enough that we were never ever away at the same time. So it was always one of us home. Either he was TAD—temporary additional duty—or I was. It just worked out that we were never gone at the same time. I know it’s not like that anymore, but it was when I was there. We were just blessed and fortunate that there was always one of us there, because eventually—my kids who are now in the military.
Weeks
When did you meet your husband?
McClendon
I met my husband in ‘78. And I met my husband at the very first duty station, Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. I was in Hawaii. Met him in Hawaii and it’s what? Thirty something years later?
Weeks
Did you know?
McClendon
No. No. [laughs] No. No. No, I didn’t know that. I was saying—no. I didn’t know that. But anyway—but yeah I met him and we’ve been together ever since. That I didn’t know. But, yeah everything was further down. I’ve been truly blessed.
Weeks
Tell me what your instructors were like during basic training.
McClendon
We had, of course—I had female instructors, but we trained together. We trained—I was in an integrated company so males and females—we trained together. Although their job was to be rough and tough, which they fulfilled. And I think they went a little overboard, which they fulfilled, but of course their job wasn’t for me to like them. wasn’t for any of us to like them. Their job was to give us orders and for us to make sure that we carry them around and they are the ones that prepared me. That’s the only contact that you have—your company commander.
So a lot of responsibilities are placed on that person and their job is to prepare you for the fleet. Obviously, when we screwed up—you betcha. But when once a person screwed up, “Oh, it wasn’t Dee.” It wasn’t one person screwin’ up. It was the entire company. If one failed, you all failed. So, no. It’s not one person, it’s the company. So it behooved you to get it right or, if you messed it up the first time, trust me, you won’t make that same mistake again. You won’t make that same mistake again. It was never one person and my company commanders.
And of course, at the time I would say no. I didn’t like them. Didn’t care for them. Of course, obviously, orders were barked at you. That didn’t bother me, because I told you, my household—my parents didn’t, as they say, play the radio. But I realized early on what the big plan was. I realized early on what the goal was. what their job was. I never took any of it personally, because you could—oh my gosh—because again, and I say I think the purpose was to tear you down individually so you’re not thinking about yourself and you’ll get back up as a unit. There were 80 females in my unit. Can you imagine what we all thought of ourselves? On my gosh. Can you imagine that would have been? Mmm mmm. Before it was over, I thought of my shipmates. I put them first even before me. I’ll tell you what. We got there, we would eye each other and kind of size each other up. On day one, you’re talking about some crying. When that was over, when basic training was over and we each parted our ways, some of us met again in another place. Some of them, I’ve never seen since, but I always remembered them
Weeks
What was a basic day like?
McClendon
A basic day was like—obviously we would have—we would get up early in the morning., and when I say early, I’m talkin’ four o’clock. It would be like four o’clock in the morning to get up, because obviously we have to be prepared and be standing at attention in line ready for inspection when our company commanders got there. So you figure that’s a company of 80 girls. So we all got in, got showered, got to change. When they say “military showered” —got to change. When they say “military showers”—two-three minutes. Because there’s[sic] 80 girls that got to get in and get ready. And then get ready, stand in line. If we know the company commander’s gonna be there at eight o’clock , you best be there standing in that line in front of your bunk ready for personal inspection. Ready for your bunk inspection and that was first thing in the morning.
Obviously everyday consisted of PT [physical fitness] on the grinder, which they called “the field. “Every morning consisted of calisthenics PT. After PT, there would be breakfast and it just depends on which week we were in, because—believe it or not—there was week one. There was a schedule. Week one, week two, three, four. Of course, obviously, early on, we would see company commanders on the weekend, but as you got more—as the weeks went by, you would start to see them less and less, because then at that point, we didn’t need them as much as we did in the beginning.
But of course, weekends—normally Saturdays—we would have to ourselves. Later on, not in the beginning—Sundays—it was up to you. There was[sic] church services. You could pick what church service you want to go to. Go to church services. I think everybody went to church. Everybody would be there. We’d would be huggin’ and cryin’ and—“Lord, when is this gonna be over? When is this gonna be over?” And then, what I loved about it is the company that sat in front, that was your last week. So your goal was to make it to the very front of that church, because you know that that’s the company that’s gonna be graduating that weekend. So that was your last week.
And so there was a schedule and company commanders set a schedule—week one through week eight. But it was definitely calisthenics every day. Definitely there were studies every day. Then of course, we did have time for ourselves. Not a lot. Not a lot in the beginning, but like I said, you live to get that letter from home. We had time to write letters and then normally that would be on your downtime. And again, in the beginning, there wasn’t a lot of downtime, because the object is to get that mind trained while it’s fresh. But toward the end, there was a lot of downtime.
As you got closer to graduating, you would have a weekend where you could do whatever you want. I remember going to [Walt] Disney [World] and all of that. I wish I had been to Disney before, because I was born and raised in Florida—in Miami. So I had gone to Universal [Studios Orlando]. I had gone to Disney. And actually, we did that on our senior trip—on our senior trip in high school. By the time you get to week five, you’re—oh, like it’s pretty much downhill now. Oh, I got this. I got this. Yeah. You know how you’re doing academically and obviously you have to pass tests.
And even today, there’s physical fitness tests. You gotta be—I’m not sure what the standards are now. It’s your different age group. Obviously a 19-year-old should be able to run a mile in less time than a 40-year-old so depending on your age, the standards were different, but there is a physical fitness standard in the military. All branches. You gotta be physically fit. I mean, you know, you can’t be tryin’ to get up a hill carrying whatever you need to carry and be all out of breath. That’s not gonna work. So, that’s not gonna work. Even today, you gotta look sharp in that uniform.
Weeks
Was it difficult for you at all?
McClendon
No.
Weeks
No?
McClendon
Not at all. No. I had no problem with the physical fitness portion. Now, I will admit I wasn’t used to getting up at three-four o’clock in the morning going out there doing—on the grinder doing military sit-ups and mountain climbers and all of that. So I wasn’t used to doing that, but you conform. But no, it wasn’t a problem. No. It wasn’t a problem, because I was very—even in high school—I was very athletic and so that didn’t bother me. None of that did.
Weeks
You mention that you lived for the letters—letter day.
McClendon
Oh, letter day. yes.
Weeks
Who would you write letters to and who would you get letters from?
McClendon
I’d get letters of course from my parents, my sisters and brothers. “Oh, I miss you guys. I miss you.” And I’m like, “Well, you weren’t telling me that when I was there.” Then of course, I was the oldest girl. My siblings looked up to me. I had one brother older than I am, but I think there is something special about being the oldest daughter. Of course, when I left—and I say even my baby brother—I just think, Oh my gosh. I think he thought I was his mom for a little while, because he’s a lot younger than I am. But it was like, “Oh my gosh. Our sister is gone.” That was the first time that family was detached.
So I was the first one to leave home. And I’ll tell you what, when that recruiter came to pick me up to take me to the train station, and—from my parents’ house to the end of the walkway to the car was his car—the recruiting car—that was the longest step. Oh my gosh. I thought I would never—and maybe I was just walking real slow[sic]. I don’t know what it was. I said that was the longest driveway. I just looked at the car like I was gonna never get there. And obviously I know it was all mentally now. Just the fear of—was all ready to go, ready to go, ready to go. But when the day actually came—because I looked back, my mom was crying. I said I can’t look back, because if she’s crying, she’s gonna start me. Because obviously, I was going to miss my family. That’s with anything. That’s with anything. Even if I had gone off to college, I would have still had the same feeling, because I’m gonna miss them. I’m gonna miss them. I didn’t tell my siblings that often, but yeah. I was gonna miss them.
But yeah. We lived for letter day. We had time to write letters so I would just catch up, see how things were going, and we would just do it through letters. There were opportunities that we would do phone calls and when I went in—I mean, I was able to call my parents. I don’t know whether it’s like that anymore, but I was able to call just to let them know—do what we call a “well visit” or a “well phone call” or whatever they call it today, just to let your loved ones know that you made it safely and you’re here. And to tell them that, “Okay. now just so you know, don’t be expecting letters every day. Don’t be expecting phone calls, because we’re here now and I just wanted to let you know that we are safe and we made it safely. Now, the fun begins.” So yeah.
McClendon
But anyways—and I am hopeful they still do that, but I don’t know. Well, yeah. Because I know my son called me. My son—my older son grew up and went into the Army. It was a couple days later, but he did call me to let me know that he was there. So I understood all of that, because I lived it. Because I know one of the questions—a friend of mine—“Oh my gosh. Your children are going into the military. How can you stand it? Oh my gosh. You’re gonna let him go?” And I say, “Well, it’s going to be his decision just like it was mine. My parents supported me and I’m going to support him.” I mean I lived it so I know.
When my daughter, who is stationed in San Antonio, Texas—United States Air Force—when she calls, I can relate. You know, my son, who is in the Army stationed in Germany—I can relate. Me and my husband—we can relate, because we’ve lived it. I supported their decision. Didn’t realize they were going in the military though. Being raised in the military though. Being raised in the military, I thought, Oh my gosh. That’s they last thing that they would do. But they went in. Out of three children, two of them went into the military.
Weeks
You mentioned the grinder earlier. Tell me about the grinder.
McClendon
Alright. the grinder is just a field. Imagine—all it is—that’s what they call it in the military. The grinder is just a—it’s similar to—just imagine a basketball court with no goals. All it is just a slate of concrete. It’s all mapped out, because a lot of the time you’re doing different exercises on there but the grinder—you do your calisthenics on there. As you start getting closer to graduation, you do your formations on there. You have to practice different formations. It’s really big. Each company—you could have—oh my gosh—quite a few companies out there practicing formations and the formations they issue, you gotta be able to line up properly. There’s a flag bearer in the front with the flag and you got to be able to position that right, carry that right, you got to be able to line up and there was a whole bunch of different things we used to and that’s all that is. It’s just a big field with no grass. All I guess concrete. In the military, they called it a “grinder”. So what that came from, what that name comes from, I don’t know. I’m sure there’s a reason.
Weeks
So what did it feel like to finally graduate?
McClendon
Mixed feelings. Believe it or not, I cried. I really did. I cried. Because I knew there was going to be some relationships that would probably—some of my friends that I would probably never see again. I was definitely ecstatic. Definitely happy that it was over. Then—Oh my gosh. I did it. Oh, I did it. I did it. I did it. Then, at the same time, I was sad, because, believe it or not, those company commanders who got on my last nerve—I was gonna miss them, because that was it. That was your family. You’d be surprised how closely you could bond. So our company commanders, boy, were we gonna miss them. I think everybody cried. Even our company commanders. Those two harsh, tough company commanders—you just saw a different side of them. You saw a different side of them. So yeah. it was happiness and sadness. When they put the orders in your hand for that next assignment, and you’re like, I’m never gonna see them again. We’re never gonna wake up together again. we’re never gonna sit there. Because, believe it or not, I had 80 sisters. And although that sounds—oh my gosh—80 sisters? How’d I even deal with three? Now I’ve got 80. So it was like leaving 80 of my family members.
Weeks
Tell me about your first assignment.
McClendon
My very first assignment—after basic training, I went to school. And my very first assignment was Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. I think I told you that. That was my very first assignment. I worked in a legal office. I was at Fleet Training Group in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. So what I used to do is—I had to take a little small boat— that’s what they called it—similar to like a little dinky, I guess—little small boat. And every morning, because I worked on an island, a little boat would take me to [inaudible] island. And every morning I would pass the [U.S.S.] Arizona Memorial. We would pass it every morning and I would look down and it seemed like I could see the bubbles. You could still see down there. I took that little boat to work every morning and I was there for three years I think.
Weeks
What did you do?
McClendon
I worked in the administrative field and they put me in a law office, because I made it known in the beginning that that’s what I wanted to do. Remember the female Perry Mason part? Yeah. So I made it known early on that’s what I wanted to do. but being a legalman or a paralegal, you had to be an E-5 in order to be able to convert to that rank. But one of the requirements before you could do this—you had to have an administrative background.
So after basic training I actually went to school in Meridian, Mississippi—Yeoman A School. And from there, I went to my very first assignment, Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. And I made it known then that that’s what I wanted to be. You know what? Every assignment that I had was always in a law office. I mean, you hear stories—you got to do your duties and work in the galley, peel potatoes, and swab the decks—and I guess I was put in a position where I was always needed—the services were always needed. They were always shorthanded so even as an E-1, I was in a legal office. So I never got a chance to enjoy that—the swabbing the deck and peeling the potatoes and the galley and all the other stuff you hear. I never did any of that but it all worked out just the same. Always in a law office, every duty station, every assignment.
Weeks
Where did you go from Hawaii?
McClendon
From Pearl Harbor, Hawaii—I’m trying to think here. I left Hawaii and I went to Jacksonville. I went to AIMD—Aircraft Intermediate Makers Department—in Jacksonville, Florida. There I worked in an administrative office, as well. I worked in the admin office there as well. Of course, it was an aircraft intermediate maintenance department, so I worked in an admin office where there was nothing but hangars with planes. That’s what they did—kind of just fix the planes. My job was, of course, obviously to process paperwork, make sure the records are processed, those types of things.
From Jacksonville, Florida, I went to—because like I said, you had to be in an administrative field, you had to be an E-5. So as soon as I made E-5, I went to legalman school or paralegal school. and, from that point on, my rate changed, because I was an administrative yeoman and my rate changed to legalmen. All along, even as a yeoman, I was always in an office. So I went to Legalmen A School in Newport, Rhode Island. I left there gone to my first assignment as a paralegal.
Weeks
How long were you there?
McClendon
My school in Newport, Rhode Island?
Weeks
Mmhmm.
McClendon
My school was four or five months. Four or five intense months. One thing too, —it’s like any other specialty or any other job, even in the military, you’re constantly training, because the law changes all the time and a lot of your opinion on what you’re doing, even as a civilian—a lot of times you’re required to, even as a civilian, you are—a lot of times you’re required to maintain your certification so you’re required to—as things change, you go to different schools to learn what the new changes are. That’s the same in the military no matter what your job is. Every time there’s a change, there’s[sic] different schools you go to, to learn the new equipment or learn the new structure or what.
So after [inaudible] school in Newport, Rhode Island—then, I left Newport, Rhode Island and I went to my very first assignment as a paralegal. I think that was in Norfolk, Virginia. So from then on—that was all in Norfolk, Virginia. Of course, I worked for the Navy Marine Corps Trial Judiciary. It was myself and another senior chief. We were staffed for at that time eight JAGs [Judge Advocate Generals]—eight judges—military judges. Our job was to do their scheduling. Get their scheduling done, set hearings. Whatever it was that day. And that’s what we did. Hearings, hearings, courts, trials. It was actually trials. At that time, I was there, there were eight jags.
Weeks
Did you enjoy that?
McClendon
Oh, yes. I did. I did. I did. I’ve always been fortunate enough to be around good people. In the military and outside the military, and even now, I work for a good group of people.
Weeks
When you think about your experiences, what would you say, if you could, your fondest memory of your time in the Navy?
McClendon
My fondest memory of my time in the Navy—of course, obviously graduation. Graduation from boot camp is one of them. Actually, you know what? I really can’t pinpoint any one thing. I loved all my assignments. I enjoyed it. I made every assignment work. Obviously, I been[sic]—early on, you go where the needs of the military are. You don’t have a choice of where you go, so you go where they send you and I look at it this way: Had it not been for the military, I probably never would have saw[sic] Hawaii. Absolutely. I probably wouldn’t have saw[sic] it. All the places that I’ve traveled—had it not been for the military, I probably never would have had the opportunity to see that. So I loved all the travels. I enjoyed all the people that I met. My assignments—I loved that. I would think that to come full circle, graduating from basic training and then retiring. All the stuff in between was just gravy, I think. I think that was my—the very first fond memory definitely was graduating basic training. Dee, you made it. You made it.
Weeks
I want to ask you about the Naval Training Center [Orlando] a little bit. Were there ever business that would come there—family members, outsiders?
McClendon
At the Naval Training Center?
Weeks
Yes.
McClendon
I’m sure there was. Now, I was here in Orlando at the Naval Training Center, but I worked at recruit training command. The base was broken up into two sections. On one side of the base was recruit training command where the recruits trained. Then the other side was the actual training center, which obviously, you didn’t have recruits on that side. I’m sure there was[sic] over where I was and I was on the recruit training side. The only time visitors were there was when you were close to graduating and you could have your family members—you know, you’re getting ready to pass—review for your graduation. You could have visitors. I remember when I was in, I never saw any visitors. Half the time I was scared to death anyway. On the recruit training side, no. There was[sic] no family member visitors if that’s what you’re saying, but once you’re graduated—and that’s the thing—two totally separate things: basic training is one thing.
But once you graduate, to me, it was a regular job. Obviously there were restrictions and there were extra things. In other words, I was required to stay on duty. I was required—if they needed me to go on assignment, I was there. Other than that, when I wasn’t working, that was my free time. So it’s that the military had hostage over me. It wasn’t anything like that. It was a regular assignment. Whatever my work schedule was, I would do my work schedule. When I’m off work, I’m off work. Obviously though, you’re in the military 24 hours a day. And you should carry yourself that way, because when you’re out there, people don’t say, “Oh, look at Dee.” They say, “Oh my gosh. She’s in the Navy? She’s out there doing that.” So, they don’t see that. They don’t see you. They see the military. “That’s how they act in the military?” So you’re always in the military, 24 hours a day while you’re in it and you’re representing your country the entire time that you’re in, but your free time is your free time. It was just like a regular job to me.
Weeks
So did you travel off base a lot?
McClendon
Yes I did. I traveled off base a lot. For my first years, I lived on base. The weekends was[sic] mine. Pearl Harbor, Hawaii—that was my very first assignment. When I wasn’t working, I was out at the beach at [inaudible] and all those other ones. And I would see things, go to the beach. Oh, yeah. I used that opportunity to see things, because I probably would have never saw it but you know what, you never know. But I couldn’t imagine I’d be going to Hawaii had it not been for the military. Only because that probably been the furthest thing—that wouldn’t have been on my bucket list. Let me put it that way. Probably wouldn’t have been on my bucket list, so I probably wouldn’t have made it there. But yes. My free time—I would do traveling.
Then, we were in Iceland and my free time—of course, we had a few Icelandic friends who would take us to see Blue Lagoon and here it is. it’s freezing. Snow is on the ground, but you’re in the water and it’s just this warm and the vapors are coming up. Different things—I wouldn’t have had any thoughts of going to Iceland. See, I would never think of going to Iceland, but I was there two—for another year. My husband and I—our child. We had a son born there.
Weeks
In Iceland?
McClendon
In Iceland. yeah. I had a son born in Iceland who has dual citizenship, but I never would have saw Iceland had it not been for the military. Never would have saw Germany had it not been for the military. I mean it wasn’t on my list. Okay, Dee, you must go to Iceland. You must go to Germany. That would have never been on my list. I don’t think.
Weeks
What was your favorite place that you traveled?
McClendon
I loved Germany. I loved Germany. I think at the time I traveled there, I had a brother stationed there. so I was able to see some things. He took us on tours. We were able to see the castles and all the old artifacts. So I loved Germany. Germany and Iceland was[sic] my favorite. Germany and Iceland was[sic] my favorite.
Even though I wouldn’t say that when I first got to Iceland. I tell you, it’s so cold there you can barely see your hand in front of your face. I mean they have what they call “white outs.” It is so—I mean, the snow and everything and the wind is blowing. You can’t even see your hand in front of your face. That’s how cold it is. I got off the plane and my sponsor was waiting there for me with a big parka. It looked like an Eskimo parka with a hood and the fur. That thing must have weighed ten pounds. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed Iceland, as well. And I enjoyed Germany. But you know what? I just enjoyed—I made the best of every place that I was at.
We did a tour in Key West[, Florida]. I hated to go there, but somebody had to do it. We did a tour in Key West, but you know what? When the military said, “This is where you’re going.” The first thing I do is—Okay, Dee. What’s unique about this place? That’s what you want to see. You’re gonna be there. Make it work for you. So that’s what I did. Well, just in case I never get back again, I’m gonna make sure I see this, this, this, this, when I can. So that’s what I did. I just viewed it differently. I didn’t view it like, Oh gosh, I don’t want to go there. No. I didn’t view it that way. I said, You know what? I just view it as another opportunity that I probably wouldn’t have otherwise.
Weeks
Did other people have that same kind of mindset?
McClendon
And you know what? I don’t think so. You talk to people and I just believe that you like it or you don’t. It’s probably not appealing to a lot of people. Every two or three years you’re picking up. I mean every two-three years you’re just getting settled. Now you’re picking up and moving to another assignment. Oh my gosh. Now you’re going to some place where perhaps you may not even speak the language. It could be a country—a foreign country in Italy or some place. Or it could be a place they’re sending you where your language is not the dominant language. Now, if you have a family—oh my gosh. I just got my kids settled or now. I’m just in school myself. Now it’s time for me to transfer.
I just believe that you either like it or you don’t. For some people it works. For some people it’s not their cup of tea. Some people say, “You know what? Let me just try it.” At the end of that term, “You know, I don’t think that was for me, but I wanted to just give it a shot.” It just depends. I think that’s the main thing. Even in the civilian sector—I mean, you walk into a job now, either you like it or you don’t. You know what? Let me just stay here until something else better comes along. You either like it or you don’t or you make it work for you. You know what? I like it. My job is to be there. Whatever I’m gonna do is whatever I need to do. If I need more schooling, if I need community service, I’m going to walk in with where I want to be in that company and you just start and you work toward a better [inaudible]. Again, like I said, you talk to some people and they don’t like it. I just think it’s different for everybody.
Weeks
You mentioned that your son was born in Iceland. How did the birth of your son change your time in the military?
McClendon
You know what? It didn’t. When we got there—actually, I was pregnant with the child when we got there. My son was born probably about maybe three-four months after I had gotten there. We enjoyed Iceland. Our original tour was only for two years and we enjoyed it so we asked for a year extension. I enjoyed Iceland, in addition to seeing some of the other countries. You know, I like the Naval Air Station Keflavik, Iceland.
At the time when I was in, you lived aboard what they call the greeting area. Everybody lived on base. You’re not allowed to live off base. Of course, just the closeness and the comradery between the sailors was very good, because we were all there together. For me, we had an added benefit, because my boss at the time working at the Naval Legal Services Detachment at the time. His wife was Icelandic, so we got to go to places that we probably would never have gotten to go, because we just don’t know the country. We just don’t know the country, so I really enjoyed that. We just wanted to stay an additional year and it would have been nice and I probably would have stayed a little longer, but, I mean, career-wise, I think it was just time to move. I didn’t want to stay dormant in one place too long.
Weeks
One thing that we ask everyone who has been to the Naval Training Center is what do you think its lasting legacy in Central Florida is?
McClendon
I think the lasting legacy is—and I’m just going to speak toward when I was there. I think one of legacies is going to be—that’s the only facility where men and women train together. That’s what I remember. The men and the women trained together—one of the first bases to have integrated companies. Nowhere else did they ever do that. They didn’t do it in California. They didn’t do it in Great Lakes. We trained together, which made sense to me. We’re going to fight together, so why can’t we train together? I think that’s one of the lasting legacies.
Weeks
Why do you think other training centers didn’t allow women?
McClendon
You know what? That’s a good question. I don’t know, because the only other centers were out in California and Great Lakes. Maybe harassment? “Oh my gosh. Men and women can’t train together. Oh, what would that do?” I never knew the reasoning behind that. If a war broke out, men are not going to be on this side and women on this side. We’re all going to be together. That’s the legacy that I remember.
Weeks
What do you think visitors would like to see or be reminded of when they visit the site of the base?
McClendon
What they would like to see?
Weeks
Yeah.
McClendon
When they revisit the base here? You know what? What I miss is the [USS] Blue Jacket. I miss the Blue Jacket. I really do miss the Blue Jacket. Of course, we got a tour there. I missed the bear. We had some beautiful compounds, but I really do miss the Blue Jacket. Even now, when I go down that street—there’s a park down there—when I go down that street to go to the VA [Veterans Health Administration] hospital for my appointments, I always look over there. I look over there and I’m like, Oh my gosh. I remember that. I remember the tour.
Everybody gets the tour that comes at basic training, because obviously—Navy—you go to sea. You’re on the boat and it’s a replica. It’s exactly how it looks. It’s exactly how it looks. So you get to go down those hatches—those itty bitty small hatches that you can barely fit in. You go down those hatches—the bells. Permission to come ashore. permission to come aboard. You do all of that. It’s a true replica. They train you exactly the way it is in the military. The way it is once you leave those gates. They really prepare you for the outside. Now whether you chose to use that or not it’s really up to you but they prepare you. They really do. I can only speak for my two company commanders. They do an excellent job at preparing us for the fleet.
Weeks
Tell me about when you were getting ready to leave the Navy.
McClendon
When I was getting ready to leave the Navy, of course—mixed emotions. Of course, it was the only thing I knew and actually even after I retired, I was looking at different high schools trying to get on as NJROTC [Navy Junior Reserve Officers' Training Corps] instructors. It was a really big adjustment for me, because that was the only thing that I knew and it was so totally different in the civilian world.
Number one: now there’s no uniform now. Just to hang the uniform up was a big adjustment for me, because for years, every morning I didn’t have to decide what shoes go with what. I knew it was going to be the black boondockers. Okay. you’re going to put on your whites or your blues. So just to not get up to put the uniform on was a big adjustment. It was really an adjustment period for me.
I tried for years to get back on. Obviously, on retirement, I couldn’t come back in. Even now—I’m too old now—but if they called me and said, “Dee, we need you.” I’d be just—“Let me get my sea bag ready. I’m ready.” They wouldn’t do that now. I’m just too old now to go back in.
But yeah. it was a big adjustment. Retirement was bittersweet. It really was bittersweet. Number one—Oh, Dee. what are you going to do? Put us under—put to the side everything that you’ve known for all these years. Now you’re going to embark on something different. Just the thought of, Oh my gosh. Now I have to go on an interview. How do I interview? What do you wear to an interview? What do you wear to an interview? Just the thought of having to look for a job, that was kind of scary. Once you get through all of that, it all worked out. Walked into a job and it’s been there ever since. It was bittersweet. Bitter, because it kind of left a bitter taste in my mouth, because I was walking away from everything that I knew. And sweet, because now you get a chance to live the rest of your life. You dedicated the first portion to the military. Now you get a chance to build the rest of your life. Whatever that entailed. I knew I’m going to work in somebody’s legal office, because that’s all I knew how to do and that’s what I enjoy. So why change what works for you?
WeeksIf it ain’t broke…
McClendon
Absolutely. [laughs] Absolutely. It was just bittersweet and to this day, do I miss it? Yeah. I still do and I’ve been retired for a while and I still miss it.
Weeks
What’s the most valuable thing the Navy taught you?
McClendon
That I can do whatever I set my mind to do. That I can do whatever I set my mind to do. It’s pretty much—and I will say military—although the military has taught me that, I think that really stems back just from my parents, my childhood. They encouraged all of their kids. You know what? If you can see it, you can do it. You can see it, you can do it. You can dream it, you can do it. That’s what I try to do to my children. Now, if you see that right there, that means you can aim for it. It’s right in your path. go for it. If you can see it, you can do it. I believe that.
Weeks
Is there anything else you would like to add that I didn’t ask you about?
McClendon
No. I think we pretty much covered everything. Such a wonderful interviewer and you did a wonderful job. No, there’s nothing I would like to add.
Weeks
Well, thank you so much.
McClendon
You’re very welcome.