Thompson
So, if you would like to give us the story of how you got to Sanford.
Lee
I was born here.
Thompson
How did your oldest relative get to Sanford?
Lee
My grandmother, after my grandfather died in Mount Olive, North Carolina—she had four girls and two boys. And Mr. Nathan Garner from Sanford was a friend, and he was visiting when my grandfather died. And he had a grocery store down here, so my grandmother bought half interest, and they came in 1910. My oldest aunt didn’t come, but then the next one, Aunt Marty [Roberts]—she came and she roomed at Miss Bessie Long’s. Do you know Miss Bessie Long? Her house was on [North] Oak Avenue right across from the park. The Higgins’ house was next door and Aunt Marty roomed there.
And my uncle roomed in Captain Mark’s house which was on [East] Third [Street] and [South] Palmetto [Avenue]. They had the grocery store on First Street. And then Mr. Garner’s son didn’t want to be in the grocery store, so Uncle James [Roberts] bought him out and changed the name to Roberts’ Grocery.
Mother was in the first class to graduate from Sanford High [School] in 1913. And I graduated in 1942 and my children graduated in the [19]60s. and then my grandson graduated, so there were four generations that graduated. They changed the name from Sanford High to Seminole High [School]. That’s how we got here.
Thompson
Now did you work in the store?
Lee
No. I never worked, except at home. Right after I got out of high school, I worked at the ice plant[1] for a while, but I didn’t work there too long. I got married. James [Lee] went to Stetson [University]. He got back from the [United States] Army in December 1945. Our first son was born in DeLand, when he was going to Stetson.
Donaldson
How did you meet?
Lee
His sister lived in Palmetto, right behind us. And she was a friend of Mama’s. When he came back from the war, I met him and it worked.
Thompson
How long have you lived in this house?
Lee
Mom and Daddy built it when I was three years old, but I just lived here ‘til I was married. And then James and I—after Mama died, we owned the house over on [West] 15th [Street] and [South] Oak and that’s where we raised our children. After Mama died, we moved back here. I’ve been here ever since. This house was built in 1926. It’s 85. It’s younger than me [laughs].
Thompson
Well, it isn’t holding up as well as you.
Lee
It might be doing better [laughs].
Donaldson
So how long did y’all go steady before you got married?
Lee
From December ’45 to September ’46. You know, he had been overseas for three years. He was ready to live [laughs]. Go to school and have a family. I was too.
Thompson
When you live through such a traumatic thing as the [World] War [II], you learn what’s important. Was he in the Pacific [Theater]?
Lee
India and China. He was over there, and my brother was in the Pacific too. Then when the Second World War started, my daddy was the shop superintendent of the Crown Paper Company, when they used to print all the paper that they used to wrap all the oranges in. and then when the war started in ’42, they asked for all scrap metal to be sent back. And Daddy was in the [American] Legion [Campbell-Lossing Post 53]. And there was a cannon in front, and Daddy helped dismantle it, and that’s when he got spoke[sic] to make my rolling pin with.
See, I graduated in ’42, and that’s when you always got a hope chest [laughs]. And mother was crocheting me a bedspread. Since Mama was making the bedspread, Daddy wanted to make something to go in my hope chest, so he had that spoke so—and they had a shop in the Crown Paper Company, so he could make my rolling pin.
Thompson
So your daddy made that rolling pin? Is it signed?
Lee
No. I wanted to get a picture of the cannon, and I had a hard time. But I went down to the museum, and I started finding things, and I’ve got quite a bit of information on it.
Thompson
Did they turn that cannon in during World War II for the metal?
Lee
Yeah. For the metal and it had been used in the First World War and they put it in front of the [Legion] Hut when they built it.
Thompson
Well, tell me how your father got involved in the legal system—in the jails, corrections…
Lee
Well, it was my husband. Well, he graduated from Stetson with a business degree, but then he went to Rollins [College] and got a Master’s [degree] in Criminal Justice. When he was in the Army, he was in the military police and was interested in all that. When the Parole Commission advertised for people, he applied, took the test, and passed, and was hired. Then we went to Orlando for a little while. And then when an opening came in Sanford, he wanted to raise our family here, so we came here and then he was with the state for 32 years.
Thompson
Did he ever have any parolee problems—coming to the house?
Lee
No. My husband was very good. People liked him. I remember after he was retired, and we were living here, we wanted to put a fence down the side in between the houses. And they said we couldn’t put a chain-link fence, and he went down and talked to somebody, and he said, “Well, you know, we wouldn’t put just an old chain-link fence. we’d put a green one down. We could put a barbed wire one down. It’s not prohibited.” The man said, “What?” And he said, “Yeah. I looked it up.” We got our fence [laughs]. It’s a nice fence. In fact, the people that live there, when they came home, they didn’t even notice it, ‘cause it was green and it was pretty, you know.
Anyway, the head of one of the departments said, “Mr. Lee, you don’t recognize me do you?” And James said, “No. I’m sorry. Should I know you?” And he said, “Well, I’m one of your success stories, and you told me…” He was very young. “I should think about what I wanted to be and start working toward it, and then try to get an education and become that. and here I am. I’m the head of the department.” I don’t know what department it was or anything, but he came home and said, “You know, I didn’t recognize—he’s a man now. He was a boy then. That was great.”
And another time—this was funny—is when the post office was Downtown. I still call it the post office. Not the one on Lakefront. the one on First Street.
Thompson
Where the Historic [Sanford] Welcome Center is now. Okay.
Lee
He came out to the car and he had the funniest look on his face. and I said, “What’s the matter?” He said, “I just got a Father’s Day card from this elderly man that was so old, he didn’t have his regular birthday. So Daddy figured out and got him a birthday…” And he said, “This is your birthday.” So he sent Daddy a Father’s Day card [laughs]. He had a lot of stories. I don’t remember too many of them, but he did have a lot. He said he was going to write a book after he retired, but he never had time.
Donaldson
Now how many kids do you have?
Lee
Three. Cathy [Lee Dingle], Linda [Lee Maliczowski], and Jimmy [Lee]. They were all under three—we had one, two, three. He retired and we’ve enjoyed it. And then he got sick, but everything’s okay.
Donaldson
How many grandkids do you have?
Lee
Well, we have five now. And then we had four great grandchildren. And when we add the in-laws, including me, there’s 18 of us. You know, it multiplies.
Donaldson
And do you get together?
Lee
Yeah. Maybe we don’t get all together at the same time. But Mendelson’s getting married, but it’ll be about a year. He just got engaged. He’s a nurse at the Florida Memorial [Medical Center] hospital in Daytona [Beach]. They grew up so fast. I’ve had several parties here in the yard, and she wants to have an engagement party in the yard now. In the ‘70s and ‘80s, [inaudible] Sawyer’s had a pasture out. And they had horses in it, but the horses were not where they had the parties. but they had what we call “pasture parties.”
Donaldson
Mm-hmm, I went to them.
Lee
You did? Wonderful. Anyway, it was a lot of fun. But then we all got old—they don’t have pasture parties after you get old.
Thompson
Describe a pasture party. What is a pasture party?
Lee
Well, it was a pasture. And then Blake [Jones]—Joyce’s husband—he had a grill out there and a real small trailer and electricity. And he built picnic tables and a thing over it, and had a shed that he could keep chairs in. and when we went, we all took something—potluck. The men would cook on the grill and it was a lot of fun.
Thompson
Did people ride horses or did you play games?
Lee
No. The kids—but I’m talking about the old folks. We didn’t ride horses. We just talked and laughed and had a good time. Then we lost quite a few. And last summer, we lost a couple: Elizabeth Steele and Joyce Adams Jones. And I thought it would be a lot of fun to get all the old people back together, so I had a backyard pasture party. But I didn’t want anybody bringing potluck, so I had [inaudible] catering. I said, “We’re too old to try to cook and bring things.” We took a lot of pictures. we really had a good time.
Thompson
When you had these, was it for Fourth of July or Memorial Day or things like that or spontaneous?
Lee
Spontaneous. It was always on the weekend, because some people were still working. and it was a lot of fun. I had pictures of when we were young and we took pictures at the backyard party.
Thompson
Have you all followed the tradition?
Dingle
Well, she had one here in her yard recently.
Lee
It was in November. And now they’re all saying, “When are you having the next one?” Well, our helpers had to get over the last one, because I couldn’t do that much they were having to do it.
Thompson
So it’s gone down to another generation. The leaders of the pasture party.
Lee
Anyway, those of us that were in it had a wonderful time. Benny and Louis Austin, Gladys and Doug Stenstrom, Joyce and Blake, of course. And Margie and Leo [inaudible], and [inaudible] and Charlie Smith. Ken and Mary McIntosh were here. Paddy [inaudible], Dr. Bill White. Even when James and I were at the beach and they had a condo[minium], and upstairs they had a meeting room. I called all the folks and said, “I’m having a beach pasture party.” so for a couple of years, we had a beach pasture party [laughs]. They’d all come over to the beach and go up to the 7th floor…
Thompson
It sounds to me like you’re the social director of the group.
Lee
No. I really wasn’t. But I did have the extra parties where everybody came and brought something. but Joyce and Blake and Margie really started it. They had the real pasture. I never had a real pasture. Did it in the backyard or the beach. It was Benny[?] and Phil Logan and…
Thompson
All of these people that you’re naming—when your husband—when you were in Orlando, and he said, “I want us to move to Sanford and raise a family here,” were all his friends here? What is Sanford to you all?
Lee
Sanford’s home. We grew up here, we went to school here, and most of these people we went to school with.
Thompson
And did they leave and come back also?
Lee
Some of them left and came back. Now, James and I weren’t gone long. We were at Stetson for three years and then…
Dingle
I was in the third grade when we came back here. I was eight. We were probably gone 10 or 11 years.
Lee
But we were always coming back. You know, Mother and Daddy were right here in this house, so we were here a lot—most every week. And never felt like we had gone away. He did want to live here and raise our children.
Thompson
How many people were in Sanford when you came back? When I opened my restaurant in 1981 there were 20,000.
Dingle
Really, just 20,000?
Lee
That’s a lot more people.
Thompson
But it still has that small-town feel to me. The people we’ve talked to—I’m trying to get that feel of what was Sanford that brought everybody here.
Lee
Well, like Margie and Leo [inaudible]. He was in the Navy. They were gone a long time, but then they came back. but then a lot of people stayed anyway. Joyce and Blake went to California, but then they came back.
Dingle
I think, as time goes on, when you’re younger, you want to leave and go to another town. And then you go to some big place and it’s not very friendly and a lot harder to get around. and you feel uncomfortable and you say, “Sanford wasn’t as bad as I thought it was. Let’s go home.”
Lee
And you know everybody. Sometimes I go to town and I don’t know anybody and that feels funny. Our group—all of us—us pasture parties—we get together all the time.
Thompson
Gladys moved to Jacksonville, right? Does she ever get back down?
Lee
Yeah. She comes down. Of course, she came down when Ralph [inaudible] died. He’s her cousin. She’s coming down in April. Joyce and I have a birthday party for about four of us, but we couldn’t do it this time. But we’re going to do it—I think George said we were going to do it in June. Gladys couldn’t come for a while. She was sick, but she’s okay now. and we’re going to have a belated birthday party for Linda Roth. Linda Roth was a pasture girl [laughs]. Linda is Leroy Roth’s wife. They were pasture party people. Linda has moved down to where her daughter lives, but she’s coming back.
Dingle
She just moved right before Christmas right?
Lee
Yeah. It’s hard to believe she’s not sitting in church every Sunday. She’s going to church down there.
Thompson
Now, your kids were too young to have gone through integration of…
Dingle
We were the class. Ingrid was the first person to be integrated, and she was in our class—Ingrid Burton. We were in junior high school. I remember pulling her across the street. she did not want to come. She was the only—in that whole school. We were upstairs in science class looking out the window, and they were pretty much pulling her across the street—her parents. She was the one they chose to be integrated. I’m sure she was very smart. She’s a schoolteacher out in Lake Mary. She came back here. There were only several black kids in our graduating class. Maybe about five or six in the whole class, I believe.
Thompson
Of high school?
Dingle
Of the class of ’68. There weren’t that many.
Donaldson
Because integration was ’71. Forced integration was ’71.
Dingle
It was either 8th or 9th grade when she came. so she was with us for about five years.
I was on the yearbook staff and I was the editor my senior year. I don’t think there was a black in the senior class, because integration started in my class. Henry June—I remember him.
Lee
That must have been hard for those children.
Dingle
Ronald Thomas—I didn’t know him. At least Henry had someone. There were only two black students in the senior class of ’67.
Thompson
Did you have any black friends or know any blacks?
Lee
No. see, at that time, my mother always had help. We always had maids. And as I had my children, I had Ines. She worked for me for 25 years. We’re still friends. I send her a birthday card with a check and a Christmas card, and she calls me. When I lost James, she came here and she came to his funeral.
Thompson
And you didn’t have any of the prejudice? That is wonderful. With what we’re going through now,[2] there’s a lot of talk.
Lee
And see, to me, that’s not Sanford. I feel terrible that they are misrepresenting things, and they’re not telling the truth about Sanford, because I had never known that. When Charles and I were little…
Dingle
There were eight in our junior class. That’s Ingrid. I don’t know if they all stayed and graduated, but Viola Jordan—we were in PE [physical education] together.
Lee
My brother was two years younger than me, and he’s been gone 20 years. But Mama had—and he loved old Catherine, and she used to take him down to the lakefront to fish before he ever started to school. We were close to those that were there and worked for us.
Thompson
Where did they live?
Lee
They lived either in Georgetown or Goldsboro[?]. Now, when Aunt Ruth lived on Second and [inaudible], there was a two-story house. I don’t remember why it was built. It was used—downstairs had been for the wash. And then there was the upstairs that we had as a playroom. But then later, when we were in high school, Aunt Ruth had a maid that lived downstairs. It wasn’t like that movie—I haven’t seen it but…
Thompson
The Help?
Lee
Yeah. I haven’t seen it, but Cathy saw it. She said that somebody asked her if she knew anything like that, and she said she never knew anything like that in Sanford. We didn’t.
Donaldson
It wasn’t an accurate portrayal is what I heard.
Thompson
It was in some areas.
Lee
See, we’re not Mississippi or Alabama.
Thompson
You go to Mississippi, you go to Alabama—this is your story. But my mother’s from Mississippi, and her mother had a boarding house. And they had black maids that came in, and they literally lived in shotgun houses. You could shoot a gun straight through the house and go out the back door. Lived across the tracks. Absolutely, there was the line. That was very much in the small town of Mississippi, when I was a child. It was absolutely amazing to me, because I was a Navy brat. Born in the Dominican Republic. The only white child anywhere around and lived in California and New York. You know, very cosmopolitan compared to Mississippi. Yeah. but in Tennessee, we didn’t have that at all.
Lee
Cathy said that. She saw it with some of her friends and she said, “Was it like that in Sanford?” She said, “No.”
Dingle
Like what? Drinking in bathrooms?
Thompson
Separate bathrooms and drinking fountains.
Dingle
Well, I remember as a kid in Orlando going to Sears[, Roebuck & Company] through the back door. We would park in one parking lot, and go back and there was a water fountain. one was black and one was white.
Lee
I do remember water fountains.
Dingle
They called it “colored” then. I remember we’d go in there, there’d be nobody there, and there’d be three of us and we all wanted a drink of water. And we were wanting to go over there and we were told that we couldn’t go over there. that that wasn’t our fountain. And I remember going, “But why not?”
Thompson
Did they have a fountain guard?
Dingle
We were just told not to use that. “Here. this is yours.” “But there’s three of us and I want a drink.”
Lee
I do remember it was separate there, but not in homes. You had a maid. She used your bathroom.
Thompson
And of course, I guess you didn’t notice that they wouldn’t be in touch at drug stores. They couldn’t come through the front door. They had to go to the back door to get their prescriptions.
Lee
I didn’t know that. No.
Thompson
They wouldn’t let them. They wouldn’t serve them if they came in through the front door.
Dingle
I do remember that they had their own entrance in the movie theater. There was a wall. There was the downstairs part and then the balcony had a wall in between, and on one side, it was this section, and on the other, there was a door, and that’s where the blacks would come in. The theater was divided. We thought that was so weird.
Thompson
We never had that.
Donaldson
Well, you see, this is what she and I were talking about. So many people were saying, “It just didn’t seem right.” and it seemed like such an injustice. How did it last so long? And how were there that many people who thought it was the right thing to do if everybody I meet says, “I felt like it was an injustice”?
Dingle
It’s just like when any law is made. It’s easy to make the law, but it’s hard to change it. These were laws. It was just, “Put the wall up.”
Thompson
Really and truly, I’m going to give us the credit for it, because I think men would just go along. And I think the women finally stood up and said, “I want my friend to be here.” We weren’t the militant—we were quiet and easing into it. The men were militant.
With everything that’s going on right now, we’re seeing more openness. We’re seeing more blacks downtown. We’re seeing more people speaking to each other. I was at the post office—the guy in front of me was black. The person behind me was black. They all looked me in the eye and smiled at me. Said, “Hello.” and I said, “Hello” back. I don’t know if they wouldn’t have at another time or maybe I’m more sensitive to it now, because of what’s happened.
Now, let’s go to the past a little bit. Can you tell about being in the [inaudible] Club?
Lee
Well, I wasn’t in the [inaudible] Club. I was just there. Gladys invited us. I took my picture with them, but I wasn’t one of them as a youngster. I think they were younger than me. Gladys was younger. I think Gladys was 12 years younger than Florence [Stenstrom], Violet, and me.
Thompson
Now was Florence Doug’s first wife?
Lee
Yes. And they were the first pasture party people. After she died, he married Patty [Stenstrom] and she was a pasture party person.
Donaldson
Which grade school did you go to?
Lee
I went to Southside Grammar School, junior high, and then high school.
Donaldson
Break that up. How many years did you go to Southside?
Lee
Four years—two. Junior high was two and high school was four years.
Donaldson
Who was your first grade teacher? I’m just curious, because my dad and I had the same one.
Lee
At the time, she was Ms. Chapman, but then she got married and she was Mrs. [inaudible], and they belong to our church too. When we moved back over here, she was substituting. She had a kindergarten, and the children would stay with Mama, and Mrs. [inaudible] would let them come and stay in her kindergarten. It didn’t matter if they were students or not. She loved us.
Thompson
Can you think of the scariest time you ever had? Gladys tells the story of how frightened she got when she saw the Ku Klux Klan on the corner of Melonville [Avenue].
Lee
I remember one time, Jimmy was sick. They had to do a bone marrow—I remember Cathy went with me. Cathy always wanted to be a doctor. She’d even keep her eyes open whenever the doctor would do something to her. I’d always close my eyes. I remember that I couldn’t talk. I couldn’t say anything. I remember I was listening—that they were saying that they had to do the bone marrow test. and after they did it, it was alright. His white blood count was normal in the bone marrow test. I remember being scared then.
I wasn’t scared when I had the kids. Of course, I was awake when Cathy was born, because all three were Caesarian [sections]. But hers had gone too far, so they had a tent in front of me, and the doctor asked me, “Do you feel that?” And I said, “Yes. it feels like you’re running a pen down my tummy.” When I heard her cry, he started doing something and I said, “Are you getting another one?” This was 67 years ago. I didn’t know anything back then. He said, “No. it just takes longer to sew you up than to cut you open.” I can remember all that very plainly. I always thought everything was going to be alright.
Thompson
What’s your happiest memory? What memories always make you feel great?
Lee
Getting married, having all my children, moving back to Sanford. I was thrilled. And buying that house over on 15th Street. The dining room was fantastic. It had beamed ceilings, and stained-glass windows, and a built in buffet all the way around it. The floor was striped—dark wood, black and gold.
Thompson
Like inlaid wood? Oh, man.
Lee
And I remember James said, “Honey, we can’t heat this house.” It had 12-foot ceilings, you know. And I said, “Honey, that’s alright. I’ll put my coat on and I’ll go sit in the dining room and say, ‘This is why we bought the house.’” That was a happy time.
Thompson
And how long did you live there?
Lee
Well, honey, it felt like I lived there longer. It was just 18 years, but the kids all went to school and college, the girls got married, I lost Mom and Daddy. You know, so much happened. I’ve been here since ’79.
Dingle
It was ’78 or ’79, because I got married in ’76. and then we bought the house from them when they moved back here. We sold the house about eight years ago.
Lee
You see, they had it for longer than we did, but it seemed like we lived there longer, because so much happened. It just seemed like I’ve been here since then, and I’ve had all the grandchildren, but of course, we had grandchildren over there. You lived there like 27 years.
Dingle
And before that.
Lee
And you lived there before that, because you grew up there.
Thompson
And did you love the dining room just as much?
Dingle
Oh, yeah. It was a great house. It was huge though. I have a son and he is now 23, and he was a big person. And we were gone all the time. Because of baseball and all these things and it was just too big of a house to take care of, and we decided it was time to find a smaller place.
Lee
You see, I was there all the time, and all the neighbor kids were there and my kids too. I had Ines. she worked.
Dingle
And when Joshie [Dingle] was little, there weren’t any kids in the neighborhood. We had to import them.
Lee
If they ever put it on the [Sanford Holiday] Tour [of Historic Homes], y’all should go. I can’t go back. I just don’t want to see it again.
Dingle
She means since it’s not in the family anymore. It’s a beautiful house, and they’ve done a lot of work since they got it.
Lee
It was 14 rooms and look how many outside doors. If I was there by myself, I could not live there by myself, like I can here.
Dingle
I can. It was easy.
Lee
I remember when James and I wanted to move back here, Linda said, “If you ever sell this place, I go with the house.” I remember her saying that.
Dingle
So I bought the house instead. I always said the house had a protective blanket over it. It was protected.
Thompson
It just felt that way.
Dingle
I could walk through the house blindfolded. I would walk through it in the dark with no problem. I knew where I was going. When the tornado hit here, I was out of town when it happened, and Daddy called me from here. I was visiting a friend in Washington, and Daddy said, “You need to come home. The tornado came.” that was when Sarah [Dingle] was born, or about 35 years ago.
Thompson
Would this be in ’83? The real bad hailstorm…
Donaldson
The hailstorm was in ’83. The tornado was in the ‘90s.
Lee
The tornado was later.
Thompson
I think they were at the same time, because I was looking at the sky and it was green.
Dingle
It was a hailstorm, but it was also a tornado.
Lee
It went all the way around the house, because we had to have all the windows and screens replaced.
Dingle
Yeah, but that was here. Over there, we went back and nothing, except some of the roof, was—a friend of mine, Cindy, was staying in the house when I was gone, and she left work. She said she drove home and there was stuff all over the place. it had been getting bad. She thought, “Man, I’ve got to get in that house all by myself and it’s dark.” She first went in and didn’t try to turn the lights on, because she knew there wouldn’t be any. and then she walked in the room and forgot and turned the light on and they were all on. We didn’t lose power. we didn’t lose anything.
Donaldson
And that’s Cindy Slaten Lee.
Thompson
What about the hurricanes? Were you living in that house when they had the four…
Dingle
I remember living there during Hurricane Donna. That was when we were kids. I was living there when—I remember that I cooked everything in my freezer, because I was afraid it was going to go bad, because we were going to lose power. and then it didn’t go bad and I had to have all these people over to eat all the food. I remember that was the only time we boarded windows, because we always taped windows. But it was supposed to be bad, and that house is three feet off the ground and then the windows are humongous. we went and got plywood and boarded up that house. It was just me and my husband, and I was there holding the boards, and then the hurricane never came. But I would rather be prepared. I was in the other house when the other four came. They weren’t fun.
Lee
But, you see, in this house, the worst we had was when there was a hailstorm and it went all around the house. When it comes to hurricanes, I never worried. This is a well-built house.
Dingle
I made her come to my house during those four hurricanes, and the next time, she said, “I’ll stay home. You have to come to my house next time.”
Lee
You know, when I was little, I remember telling Daddy, “I’m scared somebody will come.” And my Daddy would say, “Honey, don’t worry. If anybody comes, as soon as morning comes, and they see you, they’ll bring you right back.”
Donaldson
Tell her the story about the pond.
Lee
Well, my Daddy built the pond in the ‘30s. My mama wanted it, and we went to Daytona and got the Kokino[sp] rock, and it’s still there around the pond. Heidi has to take care of it by herself. She’s got three lots. I’ve just got two. She comes over and takes care of my pond. It’s got fish, water lilies, and I’ve got stuff blooming in the pond. In the early ‘30s, you might find more ponds around. They were popular. People liked to have them. Mama’s fish were tame. Mine aren’t tame. Mama could put her finger in the water and wiggle it and the fish would come. When I come by the pond, mine hide.
Dingle
Well, maybe because they think that you’re going to eat them like the owl did. Heidi has an owl that lives in her backyard and he’s eaten some of the fish.
Lee
It’s a natural habitat over there. It’s a shame she isn’t really out in the woods, you know. She’s got a plaque from the state that says her backyard is a habitat.
Morris
This is an interview with Charles Whittington. This interview is being conducted on the 18th of November, 2011, at the Museum of Seminole County History. The interviewer is Joseph Morris, representing the Linda McKnight Batman Oral History Project for the Historical Society of Central Florida. Sir, could you tell us about where and when you were born?
Whittington
Yes, I was born in Seminole County, in Sanford, at the old Fernald-Laughton Sanford Hospital, and that was in March of 1938. The building is still standing, and the last time I was by there, it was used as a—I believe it was a halfway house of sorts. I’m not really sure, and I’m not well-informed on that, but that was my understanding. But it is still there. It’s across from the old Sanford library.
Morris
Okay, sir, and can you describe the place where you grew up?
Whittington
Yes, my dad owned a Sinclair [Oil Corporation] gas station on the corner of [South] Park Avenue and [East] Second [Street], and we had a little home on Oak Avenue.
When World War II broke out in 1942, my dad was offered a job as a machinist in the Navy shipyard[1] in Charleston, South Carolina. And we moved up there, and my dad worked in the division of the shipyard that later became the test bed for our first nuclear research into nuclear-powered ships. And it was highly classified and very structured, and he didn’t understand why at the time. and I didn’t either, until later, realized that no wonder was it top secret—I mean, because this was our first involvement in nuclear research for, you know, powering anything.
And then, in the latter part of 1943, my dad had saved enough money to come back here and buy a farm. We bought a little 13-acre farm on Richmond Avenue, and moved down there. And my dad—it was sort of a lifelong dream for him—went into farming. And at that time, primarily we grew celery, and corn and cabbage, other crops that could be shipped up north.
But the days of the small farmer in Seminole County, toward the end of that decade—the end of the ‘40s—was starting pretty rapidly to come to an end. The soil was worn out, and much of the farming had moved to the Everglades, to the area around Lake Okeechobee. And my dad hung on, and tried to make it, and he finally realized that we were going under, and this just wasn’t going to do it for us. And we sold the farm, and moved to Pasco County, down near Tampa, and he got back into the poultry industry there and did, you know, quite well.
But I hated to leave. I loved Sanford. I loved being raised on a small farm, and it was a big disappointment for me to leave Sanford, especially in my sophomore year in high school. The two schools were just as, you know, much different as night and day—the high school here and the high school down there. The one down there wouldn’t come anywhere near the quality of what we had here in Sanford, and I missed that very much. And I come back to Seminole County as often as I can, and that’s why I’m here today, for this interview and also to meet with some former classmates. And I still feel like this is my hometown, but it’s also, if anyone asks me where I’m from it’s always Sanford, not Zephyrhills.
Morris
Okay, sir. And you said your dad, prior to World War II, he ran or owned a...
Whittington
A Sinclair gas station.
Morris
A gas station. What happened to that when he moved to South Carolina for the machinist job?
Whittington
Okay. He sold it to someone else, and the station now is the office of Edward Jones Investment Agency, and Bill Kirchhoff had that, and I believe he has been here and talked to you folks. And he and I are good friends. Matter of fact, I’ve got a tractor radiator cap for him. I’ve got to get to him after our interview.
Morris
Okay, sir.
Whittington
But his dad was involved in the overall agricultural structure of Seminole County during the time that we had the farm on Richmond Avenue. He raised gladiolas in Florida and also in New York, and I think he even had some farms on the West Coast, and he would, you know, follow seasons. And also there was a problem with a little microbe in the soil here called a “nematode” that was not present in the soil of New York, because, you know, the soil freezes up there in the winter and kills these things. And here it doesn’t freeze, and these little guys do pretty well, and they really wreak havoc on both celery plants and gladiola bulbs.
Morris
These were nematodes, you said?
Whittington
Nematodes. Right. It’s a little microbe, and they attack the roots of the young plants.
Morris
How did you counter those when you were farming?
Whittington
You would flood the area. You would dam in a little area of the farm that would be the area for the seed beds, where the young celery plants were growing, and flood it for about two and a half weeks. And just keep, you know, a couple inches of water on it, with the well running in there, you know, all the time, and keep the water in there for about two and a half weeks. And that would kill the nematodes in this area, and you would raise your young celery plants in seed beds in this area. And once the plants caught up to, you know, a height of like three or four inches, they could deal with these little bugs. But it was the little bitty plants that they would go after.
Morris
And when they were the little bitty plants, that’s when you flooded, or did you flood and then plant?
Whittington
No. You flooded, then planted.
Morris
Okay.
Whittington
You would flood, drain it, and form the seed beds, and plant those. And I’ve got pictures I’ll send you too. You had to put muslin covers over the seed beds, because when the plants first came up, they were very sensitive to sun. So you had to keep them covered during the hot part of the day, and in the afternoon you would open the side of the cover, along all the way, halfway through the field, and let air, fresh air and sunlight in, with the sun over here, and in the morning, you would open, you know, the back side, other side, west side, and get air and sunlight in there. But not direct sunlight, because they were very, very—a celery plant is a very tender little guy when it’s, you know, when it’s an inch high.
Morris
Okay. And the sun would just be too strong for it early on?
Whittington
If you just opened it up, they couldn’t handle it.
Morris
Did you have to do that when they, when the little celery grew up, or...
Whittington
No. Once the celery got to a height of maybe two or three inches, then you could take the cover off, and it was okay then. But it was just when they were first starting, first coming up, that they were so sensitive to the sun.
Morris
Okay. What other kinds of problems did you have while raising celery, other than the sunlight, and other than the microbes? Was there any other kind of difficulty that you found out about?
Whittington
Well, the main difficulty would be weather during the, you know, winter months, when you planted celery—typically wasn’t an issue. But the real issue was the market price of the celery when you harvested it. You know, if it was good, why, you did okay. And if it was bad, you know, it was just another bad year.
Morris
What affected these—what would change from year to year that would make it a good year or a bad year for selling celery?
Whittington
Well, just the market price in New York. That was where we shipped. We shipped from the Sanford [State] Farmers’ Market, usually to New York and that—you know, the New England area. And it was just the price of celery up there that, you know, was whether you made it that year or not. And we had too many of the had-not years.
Morris
Oh, really?
Whittington
Yeah.
Morris
Okay. And what was your involvement? Like how old were you when you moved to the farm? And what was your involvement while you lived there?
Whittington
Well, I was five years old when we moved there, and we started farming. We started farming with a pair of mules. [laughs] Now this is how far back it goes. We used mules for plowing and discing and so forth.
And after this, we bought a Model F Fordson tractor. I’ve got a picture of this, and there are several online now. And my dad would let me drive it, but it was so hard to steer, until I was about 12 years old, I could not turn it around at the end of the row. It took that much power to turn the steering wheel. And also, I didn’t weigh enough to push the clutch in. The clutch was the lever that stuck out of the transfer case, and you had to press down on it, and I could stand on it, and it wouldn’t go anywhere. [laughs] So, obviously, I couldn’t operate the Fordson by myself.
Morris
Right.
Whittington
We later got rid of that and got a Model 8N Ford, and that’s the radiator cap for the one I have in my car, and it was, you know, had power steering and the hydraulic lift in the back, and so forth. And so, I did a lot of plowing, and discing, and running the tractor. That was, you know—10 years on, I did a lot of it. That was my part of helping.
Morris
No planting or harvesting necessarily?
Whittington
No. We—for harvesting the celery crops, we usually used crews of labor that we would hire locally. And they would plant the celery, and also cabbage or couple other plants that required—you know, physical planting—and then they would also do the harvesting and packing. And you contacted a crew leader, a team leader, and contracted with him to do the harvesting in your field. And we were just responsible really for, you know, making certain that the celery—if it was celery, or whatever the crop—was sprayed, in case there was any kind of a blight or a fungus, or some sort of an insect problem, that we sprayed it with the proper spray, and that we fertilized it, and also cultivated the rows to keep the weeds down, and it was a very labor-intensive occupation.
And I was very upset with my dad, especially in the later years, because he could’ve stayed on forever. He already had his foot in the door in the nuclear—the government nuclear involvement in the Military, and he didn’t even know it. I mean, he knew he was under a very tight security environment, but he didn’t know why. But he was an excellent machinist. He was moved up shop chief in no time at all, making good money, but his dream was always to come back to Sanford and own a farm. And, I mean, it was quite obvious by the end of, you know, the ‘40s, that the farming here was in trouble. And, you know, in later years, I thought, “Why couldn’t you have just stayed in Charleston with the Navy?” And, you know, gotten a civil service retirement. And we wouldn’t have, you know, been in the situation that we found ourselves in here. Although, like I say, I do really love Sanford, and loved growing up here.
Morris
Okay. A little bit of a catch-22.
Whittington
Yeah. That’s a very good comparison there.
Morris
Now, you said you moved here—you moved to Sanford when you were five.
Whittington
Uh huh.
Morris
How long was your dad a machinist for the Navy? Because I know when he moved up to South Carolina, you must have been only a couple years old.
Whittington
Right. Well, I was born in ’38, and we moved up there in ’42.
Morris
Okay.
Whittington
And he worked for about 18 months, and put everything aside. And that was enough to buy that farm, and so we came back. And that—and plus he had sold the gas station by this time, and he had some income from that, and so he put it all in that farm and getting some equipment, and…
Morris
Mules.
Whittington
Yeah. Mules. He had mules, and then the Fordson and then the Model 8N Ford, which I’m trying to find—got a couple leads on it—but I’d like to learn how to get some pictures of it.
Morris
Okay. So I’m kind of surprised, because when you moved to Sanford, World War II was still going on.
Whittington
Right.
Morris
And they didn’t have a problem, coming from a very heavily secured area, and during World War II, an able-bodied man—I’m surprised they just—that he was able to leave his job and become a farmer.
Whittington
That’s an excellent point, and I would be surprised at it except that farming was a fairly high-priority occupation, as far as the government was concerned, because you were feeding, you know, you were feeding the population, and providing some foods that could be used in preparation of foods for the—you know, our military. So that was effective. We came back here, and we’re going into farming wasn’t a problem. And he had—my dad had served in World War I in France.
Morris
Oh, okay.
Whittington
And he was past the draft age. So that was something else too. I mean, he was too old for, you know, for required military service.
Morris
Okay. And what was the cap at this time for age? The age cap before you could no longer be drafted?
Whittington
Joe, I don’t remember exactly. I think somewhere in the 30s—like 35?
Morris
Oh, okay.
Whittington
I believe that was it. I’ll do some checking, get back to you on that.
Morris
All right. Thank you, sir.
Whittington
I believe that was in, you know, mid-30s.
Morris
I was a little surprised they’d let such an excellent machinist, you know, leave so easily.
Whittington
Well…
Morris
Unless they put up a fight trying to entice him and keep him to stay. But it just seemed, during World War II, to let him go to farming—I mean, maybe they didn’t have any say in the matter, as well. That’s just where my question was going.
Whittington
Right. And I really wish that, of the many things you want to go back and ask your parents, something I’d really like to talk to my dad about is why you left. I mean, was farming that important to you, that you would leave, you know, a high-tech, high-paying, secure job like that, and go back into something that, you know, almost going in it was a known gamble, because there was problems with weather, insects, and, you know, always the market fluctuations?
Morris
Did he like his career as a machinist?
Whittington
Yes. He did. I mean, he liked that very much, but it didn’t have the pull that, you know, being his own boss in farming did.
Morris
I guess maybe it could have been just his own culture growing up, attached significance to farming and independence.
Whittington
Right. Well, he was raised on a farm in North Carolina.
Morris
Oh, okay.
Whittington
So, you know, that was his—where his roots were. He wanted to get back into it down here. And, of course, you know, in the ‘30s, Sanford couldn’t produce enough celery. I mean, it was the celery capital of the world.
Morris
Right.
Whittington
And some of that aura sort of hung over for quite some time, that, you know— “Oh, get a farm and get celery growing. You’ll get rich.” Well, that didn’t always work out that way.
Morris
Shoot.
Whittington
But, anyway, that was…
Morris
How long did your family own the farm?
Whittington
We sold the farm in 1950, and he leased another farm, and we stayed on ‘til 1953, and at Christmas that year, my sophomore year in high school, we left and went to Zephyrhills.
Morris
So how long did you live, then, in Sanford, from the first farm up until that, 1953?
Whittington
Okay. I was born here, and we lived here until we left in 1942, and then—the early part of 1942—and then toward the latter part of 1943, we came back. So I was only gone, like 18 months.
Morris
Okay.
Whittington
And then we stayed here until 1953, and I was a sophomore in high school at that time.
Morris
Okay, sir. Then, I know we talked a little bit about your father. Could you tell me more about your parents and any kind of siblings?
Whittington
I had one sister that was 17 years older than I was, and she graduated from Florida State [University], which was Florida [State] College for Women back then, with a degree in education. And she went to Melbourne and got a teaching job there, and when World War II started, the City of Melbourne offered her the directorship of the USO that they’d built in Melbourne for the, mainly the sailors, because there’s a lot of Navy and Coast Guard. You know, all these war activities at that time in that area. And so, Melbourne built a USO and offered my sister a job to run that, and she took it and did that until the war ended.
And my dad had a couple years of mechanical engineering at NC [North Carolina] State [University], and that’s why he did well at Charleston, because he had that—already had some college training in, you know, the math end of mechanical engineering. Well, it’s primarily math. But, the, you know, his roots in North Carolina—being raised on a small farm—just were too strong, and he wanted to go back to it. Plus, he just—he had the problem that a lot of folks have of not wanting to work for somebody else. That’s why he ran the gas station is because, you know, he was his own boss there, and, you know, he could hire somebody else to help him, but he didn’t report to anybody else. He was his own station, and he ran it the way he wanted to.
Morris
Okay. And what about your mother, sir?
Whittington
My mother helped my dad a lot. I mean, farming was sort of a family thing that you got into, because, I mean, there was just so much work to be done, that my mother frequently would help, not only, you know, taking care of running the home, but she would actually physically help with some of the labor on the farm itself. And I didn’t like that. It just seemed wrong that a woman should be, you know, having to make ends meet, to have to work, you know, on the farm. Even though it was not really heavy labor work. It was the fact that she still had to chip in and help us to make it. That bothered me. But she did, and never complained about it. But it was, you know—it was something that many families here did. The whole family was involved in farming. And I didn’t mind, you know, running the tractor at all. I liked it. I mean, that was [laughs]—especially the Ford that I could handle, not the big Ford, but the little one that was newer.
Morris
Well, sir, how has Sanford changed over the years, from…
Whittington
Sorry?
Morris
How has Sanford changed over the years?
Whittington
How’s it changed?
Morris
From when you grew up to how it is now, sir.
Whittington
Oh, okay. Well, the change that I noticed when I first came back was the decline of the downtown area, which is so typical of many small towns. The shopping moves out to shopping centers in the suburbs, and that has happened to me—that Downtown Sanford’s the perfect example of it. Because we had, downtown, we had a Firestone store and a JCPenney, and Lerner Clothing Store, and a McCrory’s Five and Dime [Store]—I can’t think of—two hardware stores, some regional area chain department stores, and two banks. And it was just, you know, it was a very functional little downtown area.
And you could see that starting to go. You know, stores would close and be empty, and then somebody else would try something else in it. It wouldn’t make it. Now, it’s a lot of antique shops down there, and that’s about it. I mean, that’s that whole main street, is antique shops. And I didn’t like to see that. The old telephone company was over the JCPenney store. There was an old manual switchboard with operators on the second floor of the JCPenney building, and then there was the Thudson[?] Drugstore on one corner, and the Roman Anderson[?] Drugstore on the other. There were no Target or pharmacy or CVS, any of those. You know, there were none of the chain stores. The Eckerd chain was the first one down here—Eckerd and Walgreens. But, you know, during my growing up years, those two were places that you hung out, and you could get a hamburger and a malt, or, you know, whatever. And, also, there was a pharmacy there. And I hated to see those go, because that was, you know, that was just a very active part of Sanford.
Morris
Okay, sir. And where have you lived over the course of your life?
Whittington
Well, after I got discharged from the hospital following that jet accident in the Air Force, I immediately went right back to the Cape [Canaveral] and applied to NASA [National Aeronautics and Space Administration] and got on. This was during the Gemini program.[2] I got on at the flight simulator over at the Cape. And I worked the NASA contracts. I was at Houston[, Texas] twice. I was in Ecuador for one time, and then a tracking station in the Smokey Mountains, and was there through, well, after the end of the Skylab program. When that ended, and the shuttle program wasn’t yet, you know—we’d gone to the Moon and done that thing with the Apollo series, and the shuttles weren’t flying it, so there was a massive layoff. I got caught in that.
And I got into the telecom industry, and followed that all over the country as a contractor. And I found that I could—of course, you weren’t building any pension or retirement—but I found that I could make more money than a company employee. I could make more money as a contractor if I was willing to move around. And you just had to discipline yourself, and put aside what otherwise would have been your retirement from the company. And I did that and did all right. And I liked to travel. But I ended up in an ISP [Internet service provider] Internet hosting outfit in Seattle[, Washington], and was doing that when I retired in 2001. You know, the travel and, you know, the change, the challenges of new jobs, and being able to go to a new area and move into the new company and a new job—that part of moving around was attractive to me.
Morris
What kind of places did you move, sir? For example?
Whittington
Okay. I was in San Francisco[, California], and was there during the earthquake, and was in Los Angeles[, California], and then in the Seattle area for about 10 years. and then, prior to that, I had moved around just for, like, a few months at a time, in various places all over the U.S.—Indianapolis[, Indiana] and Chicago, Illinois]—you know, for like maybe six weeks or two months at a time on just a contract job. And, it was interesting, but I was single then, and just pull up and move without any real concern. It was okay.
Morris
You said you liked to travel, sir. Have you ever traveled outside of the country? Or—vacation travel?
Whittington
Yes. Yes. I have. I’ve traveled to, well, the South America travel was mainly as a function of the Military and NASA time. But I’ve traveled to England, and done the Hawaiian Islands, was in Israel in Tel Aviv for five weeks for a company school. And that was an eye-opener. That really was. I mean, I got a good look at the Holy Land. It was [laughs]—it was a lot different than I expected. It really was.
Morris
How so, sir?
Whittington
Well, those people have got an unreal—I’m talking about the Israelis—have got an unreal work ethic. I mean, if they are asked to work 24 hours a day, and there’s a need for it, they’ll do it, and no griping. You don’t find that very much in the U.S.
I mean, they are very, very much—uh, I can’t really express myself here—loyal to Israel, and to their faith, and to the country. I mean, just, you know, they’ve got a country, and they’re going to hang onto it now. And the [laughs], the guys around them had better not mess with them. I can say that from being there, and being in the technology. I know what they’ve got. And they can—the guys around them can end up a big smoking hole in the ground over there, if, you know, they push Israel too hard.
Morris
All right, sir.
WhittingtonThey might hurt Israel too, but they’ll come out the losers.
Morris
And have you travelled anywhere else, sir, for work or vacation? You said South America. What countries in South America?
Whittington
Okay. I’ve been over a good bit of England, and I was in Alaska, and was in the Army up there. I liked that, but I’ve been back just as a tourist with my wife, and took my in-laws up there. And the Hawaiian Islands several times. I’ve not done China. I’d like to see China. I really would. And that’s kind of the feeling I got, because there was a contract. The Chinese were going to completely replace their aging landline system with a…
Morris
Towers?
Whittington
With a tower network.
Morris
Okay.
Whittington
Yeah. With towers, and cell phones. And several different companies had some pretty good contracts over there, if you’d go and stay for as long as you could take it. But, some of the places I heard about, you know, they were all right, and some were pretty Spartan—I mean, food and accommodations. And you having been there, you probably would validate some of that. I don’t know.
Morris
Some of it, sir. When was this going on? When were these contracts for landlines or...
Whittington
Okay. The contracts for China were, like, in the mid-‘90s.
Morris
Okay, sir.
Whittington
There was some openings there, and that kind of moved around. It would change a lot, and I never could get somebody to, you know, sit down with me and say, “Okay,” you know, “here’s what we can offer you, and here’s when you leave.” And I never was able to find it at that point. Perhaps it’s a good thing. But anyway, I’ve not been there. I’ve met a good friend my wife worked with in San Francisco and Seattle that is from Ethiopia—not Ethiopia. [sighs] Can’t say it. Starts with “E,” and it’s part of the Soviet Union. Oh, fiddle.
Morris
Is this in Africa or Asia?
Whittington
No, it’s in…
Morris
Oh, is it Estonia?
Whittington
Yeah. Estonia. [laughs]
Morris
Oh, okay.
Whittington
I couldn’t say it. And he’s gone back to Russia several times, and the pictures and so forth. And the stories I got from when I would talk to him afterwards, I don’t really have any desire to travel in Russia. And that’s not one of the things I want to do. I want to do Europe first, and really work it over really good, and Hong Kong and Japan. Those are ones that I really wanna [laughs]…
Morris
They’re both very nice. Sir, are you still working right now?
Whittington
No. I’m retired now.
Morris
Okay. How long have you been retired, sir?
Whittington
I retired in 2001.
Morris
Okay. And what have you been doing to, you know, kill your time since then, sir?
Whittington
Okay. I’m very much into researching my ancestry—into genealogy. I’ve got a solid trace back to, now, I don’t if you’ve ever heard of this, the story of Dick Woodington and his cat.
Morris
No, sir.
Whittington
But this was a guy who was Lord Mayor of London four different times. And anyway, he was a far-distant cousin, and I’ve gone 200 years past him, with a solid trace back, and that was a lot of fun. And I think I’ve got my own family tree built now. I’m working my wife’s, and just anybody else that pops up. I thought, “Well, let’s just see what,” you know, “theirs looks like.” That’s a lot of fun.
I’ve been in ham radio for, since, well, it was 11 years old, and that technology keeps advancing. I mean, we were digital before digital phones were, you know, the thing. We were bouncing, you know, signals off the Moon, communicating that way. We’ve got a whole bunch of satellites up. Not our satellites, but we’ve got ham radio, we would piggyback on a lot of satellites that are up there. So you can send up with a little handheld and talk to somebody on the other side of the earth. And that, to me, is fascinating. So that’s been something that’s kept me really busy with my time—is ham radio.
And my wife and I like to travel, and, you know, if we get a few days that we can see we can get away to do something, we get in the car and go. And that’s, you know—we had a great big map when we were in California, a huge, plasticized, ceiling-to-floor map of the whole state. And when I was there, I was able to take off, you know, and be gone for a week at a time, with no charge against any vacation time, because I was on-duty 7 by 24 out there. They didn’t require that much support, but I had to be there. So if I wanted to leave, they’d fly one of the managers out there to watch my equipment, because it was a little vacation for him to San Francisco, and we’d take off. And we went to little towns that we’d just find this map and say, “Let’s go there this weekend.” And we’d go to little towns in California that the average Californian had never heard of, and go spend the night, or sometimes not spend the night. Just go, come back. The travel was a big thing out there, especially in the mountains. Of course, California’s got a lot of them, and that was an interesting thing.
Morris
Okay, sir.
Whittington
I was involved in the Voyager aircraft project that flew around the world, non-refueled, nonstop. It was the bird [Burt] Rutan designed. Canard, weird-looking airplane. And I worked on that for about two and a half months, or two and a half years, as a volunteer on the staff for the world-record flight, and they wanted me for my NASA background, because I knew how to solder without putting a lot of weight in the airplane and solder. Because they proved that if you improperly—if the crews that built the big Saturn [inaudible] spacecraft that we used to go to the Moon—they used too much solder—you could end up with five tons of solder in the spacecraft, that it would never get off the pad. And, so there’s a very finite point in soldering where you can, you have just barely enough but not too much solder, and I had instructors for hand-soldering for, you know, air space flight hardware. And the Voyager crew wanted me for that reason, because I could keep the weight down. We put something in the plane in the wiring—in the way it’s hooked up.
Morris
And when’s this again, sir? Like, can you give me a time frame?
Whittington
This was from, like, ’84 through, the plane flew in ’87. It was those years.
Morris
Okay, sir.
Whittington
And they were up for just under 10 days, but they flew all the way around, you know, nonstop, from Edwards Air Force Base, back to Edwards Air Force Base, in California, nonstop and non-refueled.
Morris
Did you enjoy working for NASA and with NASA projects?
Whittington
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I was very much into that, and I also enjoyed the work when I was assigned to Patrick [Air Force Base] over at the Cape, because we were supporting the NASA effort, and we were right on the cutting-edge of everything there. And that was extremely, extremely fascinating and challenging. And it was the kind of a job you’d go into early, not to be on overtime—‘cause you couldn’t just go clock in arbitrarily—but just to be part of it. And I worked the midnight shift, and a lot of times I’d still be over there at noon just hanging around, watching stuff. You know, just to be part of it, and, you know, you’d realize, “Hey, I’ve got to go home and get some sleep.” And sometimes they’d run you out, when there were too many of us hanging around, but it was extremely fascinating.
Morris
And, sir, you mentioned your wife. How long have you been married, and who is she? Where did you meet her?
Whittington
Okay. My first wife I met here locally. She was from Plant City, and we were married 16 years, and got a divorce. I was divorced 12 years, and I met my second wife in Zephyrhills, and she was with a company in California that provided mortgage insurance—was part of this thing. It kept the housing bubble sort of going, because it allowed you to buy a home with mortgage insurance instead of a much larger down payment. And it was a good concept. There was nothing under-handed about it. But anyway, she had 20 years with them, and she was in charge of a team that would go to the various offices around the country and underwrite, you know, maybe 500 loans at one time. They’d be there a week, and as such, you know, they flew constantly, and we always had a whole stack of frequent flyer tickets on the dresser. And we flew to England, to Ecuador, to Hawaii, to Alaska twice, on frequent flyer passes [laughs]. And took her folks to Alaska. And she enjoyed her work and enjoyed the travel, and I enjoyed being able to grab those tickets and say, “Let’s go to jolly old England.” [laughs]
Morris
That must have been very convenient.
Whittington
It was.
Morris
And do you have any children, sir?
Whittington
Yes. I do. I have a daughter and two boys. And my daughter lives in Brooksville, and the boys are in the Atlanta[, Georgia] area.
Morris
What are their names and ages, sir?
Whittington
Okay. My daughter is 46 now, and the oldest boy is 44, and the youngest one is 37. So they’re getting up there.
Morris
Are they all from the first marriage?
Whittington
All from the first marriage. Right.
Morris
Okay, sir. And, okay. Are they doing anything similar to what you did?
Whittington
No. My daughter worked as a—she did hematology studies for Smith Klein Beacham in veterinary medicine. And I thought she was going to stay with it, because it was, you know, an excellent field, and she got out, and got into, of all things, running a business, and she’s got a fairly large one. But have you noticed on the freeways, you’ll see a large load being hauled on the freeway, and there’s a truck ahead of it with a flashing light?
Morris
Mm-hm.
Whittington
Called a pilot car?
Morris
Yes, sir.
Whittington
Well, she has a pilot car operation in Brooksville, and she’s the biggest company east of the Mississippi. And she covers the whole country, because she’s got contract drivers for her all over the country. That one driver can take the load from here to there, and then somebody else picks it up and goes on. And she even had a contract with NASA to escort those solid rocket boosters from the West Coast to the Cape. [laughs] And, you know, this was—she said, “Well, Dad will be proud of this.” And I was. And she asked—they would always—when they would ship these boosters back, they would send two engineers from the plant with them, because they were very critical insofar as temperature and pressures and so forth went, even though they were solid fuel. And one of the engineers told her one time, he said, “If you see smoke coming out of the casing for one of those boosters, run.” And she said, “Right, sir! But let me ask a question: which way?” [laughs] And I thought her sarcastic humor was a little bit funny, because, really, which way is it gonna go if it pops, you know? But, anyway, she does that.
And the oldest boy, regrettably, had a stroke a couple years ago, and his, you know—he won’t be working anymore. And the young one works for a granite quarry in Atlanta—the north side of Atlanta—and is driving a truck, a dump truck. [laughs] So…
Morris
Very eclectic.
Whittington
Yeah. But he’s still—even in this economy, he’s still staying employed. So, you know, more power to him. [laughs]
Morris
Definitely, sir. Could you tell us a little about your military experience?
Whittington
Military experience. The first one—I was in the Army, and they sent me to Indianapolis for court reporter training, and I thought, “Wow,” you know, “A court reporter!” And after four months there, learning to transcribe, you know, court proceedings, they sent three of us to Alaska, and we got up there, and they had civil service court reporters and no need for us. So they assigned me to the Army dock in Downtown Anchorage[, Alaska], and it was one of those dream tours that you get one of in the service. There were seven of us assigned there. There was a captain, and two NCOs [non-commissioner officer], and the rest of us were enlisted.
And during the summer months, when the port was open and—you know, real busy, you’d work sometimes 36 hours straight, and during the winter months, when it was froze up and closed, you’d pull secure watch for 24 hours and, you know, you were off 48. Well, it wasn’t missile science for us to get together and say, “Hey guys, let’s pull it for a week straight and take two weeks off.” [laughs] So I lived to ski though. I did. I loved skiing, and during winter months, you know, I’d work my week and then that was it. They wouldn’t see me again until two weeks’ time went by.
Morris
You would have to be awake for a week straight, sir?
Whittington
Oh, you wouldn’t have to be awake. You’d just have to be on-duty there. The place was closed up and frozen over really. And you just had to be there and answer the phone. That’s all.
Morris
Okay, sir.
Whittington
And also pull fire watch, and whatever.
Morris
No. I understand.
Whittington
But you didn’t do anything. There were only two TV stations in Anchorage at that time. [laughs]
Morris
Got a lot of reading done, sir?
Whittington
Yeah. You did a lot of reading.
Morris
Caught up on world events?
Whittington
[laughs] But anyway, I should have stayed in. I mean, I was—I made E[nlisted Rank]-4 after 18 months. and I had my private license at that time, and if you had any college at all—I had one year at Southern—Florida Southern [College]—you could apply for the warrant officer program, go to Fort Rucker, Alabama, and get helicopter training. And I always wanted a rotary wing rating. I mean, I wanted a chopper rating. But some little voice said, “Don’t do it.” Because if I had, I’d have been one of the first Huey pilots in [the] Vietnam [War].
Morris
Yeah.
Whittington
One of the first, ‘cause this was in 1959, and I would have gotten through warrant officer school and flight training by about 1961, and Vietnam was just starting to stir about then. And a good friend from high school here was the first commissioned officer killed in Vietnam, Terry Cordell. First one killed over there. And I knew Terry. He was our football captain, and he was a senior, and I was a freshman. Just a real nice guy. But flying an observation plane, got shot down. That was the end of Terry.
Morris
And then you got out of the Army. What after that, sir?
Whittington
Went out of the Army in 1959, and enlisted in the Air Force in ’62, and was in there until July ’64, when I got the medical discharge. And I was actually [laughs] —I don’t even like to tell people about it, but in—when I saw the end of the NASA thing coming, the Army had a program at that time called “Stripes for Skills,” and they offered me an E-5 and choice of assignment, which I took Denver, Colorado—but based on my NASA background. They wanted somebody that had some satellite experience, and so the deal was that I go through a little three-week refresher basic, and then would be assigned to Denver, Colorado, as an E-5. And they enlisted my wife at the same time. This was my first wife. She had court reporter experience, and they would put her through the same program, and she would have to go through the full wide basic, but they would assign us to both to go to the same base, and as much as they could, you know, in the military, would keep us together.
But at that time, I’d had a medical discharge, I had three kids, I was overage, I had all kind of disqualifiers. And a retired general and old-timer [inaudible] there where I was working for NASA, said, “Go to the Pentagon.” And, like a dummy, I climbed in the car, and we headed off to the Pentagon, and got there at eight o’clock in the morning, and got in with the crowd that, you know, was going into work, and I fell in with this bird colonel, and he said, “Where are you going?” And I said, “Well, I need to see the Army G2.” And he says, “Oh, yeah?” [laughs] He couldn’t believe this—me and my wife and three kids. I mean, it blew him away so badly, that he took us and signed us in, and he says, “Stay right here.” And finally, somebody from that office came down, and saw all of us kind of sitting there, and he said, “What do you want?” I said, “I want a waiver for the disqualifiers that are keeping me out of the Minuteman program.” And I talked to the guy for about an hour, and I’ve got the letter that waives my disqualifications to go back in the Army. [laughs] You know, this was after a medical discharge, three kids, and overage.
But anyway, I went to Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, went through this little basic training, which was kind of fun—learning the new weapons and new techniques and stuff. And then, everybody else left, and no assignment. Another guy and I were by ourselves in the outfit, and just the cadre people were still there, and finally, they came through and they said, “We hate to admit it, but the Army has enlisted about 10 people in that career field for every slot we have.” And he said—this was the [inaudible]—said, “We can’t offer you Denver, Colorado.” Or Fort—can’t think of the base there now—but he said, “We can offer you Fort Monmouth, New Jersey, and E-3, and no concurrent assignment with your wife.” And I said, “Or what else?” And he said, “Or a discharge.” And I said, “Let’s go with plan B.” [laughs] So, I mean, I had a very short second enlistment in the Army.
Morris
After all that trouble.
Whittington
After all that trouble, you know.
Morris
Shoot.
Whittington
But I didn’t really like the changes I’d seen in the Army either, at that time. I just don’t know. It just—there was a change in discipline, and attitudes, and stuff, that I would have had trouble with, because of coming from the Army of the late ‘50s to the Army of the mid-‘70s. And, I mean, there were guys, even in the training barracks, sitting in the dark smoking pot, and it was—I mean, I’m not that much against pot, but it was against Army regulations and against common sense. And to think like that, I was just this lad, and it didn’t work out, because I’m sure that would have gotten me in trouble, complaining about it—those kind of issues later on. So it’s just as well that I didn’t end up in that.
Morris
Okay, sir. And was that the end of your military experience then?
Whittington
That was the end of it.
Morris
Okay. Are there any historical events that come to mind, over the course of your entire life, sir? Like anything in your life that you felt like stands out or was, you know—that just changed your world, I guess I could say?
Whittington
Well, being on the biomed[ical] council at Houston for the flight of the Apollo 8, the slingshot flight around the Moon, that to me was, it was just sort of a highlight in my life, because I was part of something that it was a first for us, for the U.S., that we were going to the Moon, and I’ll be in a small part. I was part of it. And I was just so impressed with the guys in the spacecraft. I was watching all their, you know—their biomedical functions, and I had no medical training at all. I was there being able to feed the biomed data that was being stripped out of the calorimetry to anyone in mission control that needed it for any reason. All they did was call me and say, “Give me biomed.” And I could patch that data to them, and I had to keep the equipment that stripped it out of the calorimetry downstream, had to keep that up and running, and it was real fussy stuff, because it was built very hurriedly. But, I was watching all of their, you know, their vital signs, and Frank Borman—Colonel Frank Borman—the mission commander’s pulse at T-2 was 80, and mine was way over 100. I mean, I was wound up. We’re going to the Moon! And, here he’s up there, “Okay, let’s—gonna go?” You know. And I was—I thought, Wow. The ultimate test pilot. You know, the thing could blast into a million pieces. You know, he was ready to take a chance on it.
Morris
Okay, sir. That’s interesting.
Whittington
That was, that’s sort of a highlight, and the time in Israel was, that too was a definite attitude-adjuster for me because, you know, seeing the way those people live, the way they felt about their country, and their faith and everything, it just—and I felt that every American Jew, really—they can’t now, because of the mess over there—but I felt that back then, they should spend some time in the Holy Land and see, you know, where they came from, and get an experience with the people who still lived there. The attitudes over here are a lot more lax and whatever than they are in Israel.
Morris
Definitely, sir. Is there anything you’d like to discuss that we haven’t covered?
Whittington
That’s about it. It’s been a real pleasure discussing this with you.
Morris
Thank you, sir. It’s been a pleasure.
Whittington
And, you know, if you can send me a CD or something, I’d love to have it for the record.
Morris
I will definitely do that, sir.
Whittington
Okay.
French
So to—to—what we usually do with the beginning of the interviews is introduce ourselves and I’m Scot [French]. This is October 30th, 2013. And, um, we are interviewing, uh, Luticia Lee. Do you go by “Tish?” “Tisch?”
Lee
Tish.
French
Tish?
Lee
Tish.
French
How do you spell that? “T-I-C-H” or “S-H”?
Lee
S-H.
Maliczowski
T-I-S-H.
French
You know, on some of the things we had from Creative Sanford[, Inc]. It had “C,” and so I’m glad we asked.
Dingle
Yes[?].
French
Um, and so the first—let[sic] me do is to ask you: would you intro—you mind introducing yourself to us?
All
[laugh]
Lee
Well…
Maliczowski
Just tell ‘em your name.
Dingle
Tell ‘em your name.
Lee
My name is Luticia Lee, and I was born in Sanford in, um, 1923. And my house was built in 1926. And at—growing up, I could walk everywhere. I could walk to school. And um, at that time, there were just three houses on the block. And then in, um—I’m not sure when—but the Spencer house that was on the corner, it burned. It was the old house and it burned. So, until ’46, there was just this house and the one my aunt and uncle built. And then in ‘46, Braley[?] Oaklem[?] built more houses. And um, so things really did change you know. You—you didn’t have that many people here [laughs]. And, uh, you knew everybody. And now, I go to town and I don’t know anybody.
All
[laugh]
Lee
It’s changed so, but, um—and, I do have friends that I went to school with. And we try to go out once a week for dinner and we graduated together in ‘42 [laughs].
And that’s when, um, my dad—Mom and Daddy gave me my cedar chest. And that’s when, um, Mama crocheted me a bedspread, which I still have. And Daddy wanted to make something, and that’s when—it was the beginning of the [World] War [II]. And they asked for scrap metal and that’s when they took—were taking out—down their cannon. And Daddy had—was in the military and he helped take it down. And he got the, um, spoke from the wheel, and made my rolling pin, which is the only rolling pin I have used all these years. And I’m giving it to Cathy [Dingle],[1] ‘cause she cooks, and she bakes cookies, and she rolls ‘em.
All
[laugh]
Dingle
She[2] cooks as well, but I bake [laughs].
Maliczowski
I get the, um…
Dingle
Fireless…
Maliczowski
Fireless cooker.
All
[laugh]
Maliczowski
I’m gonna do the crock pot thing.
All
[laugh]
French
Oh great. Great.
Lee
So she gets the—and um…
But I’ve had a wonderful life. I really have. Been right here. Still have friends that I’ve had all my life. I’ve lost a lot, but when you reach 90, you, um—you—it happens, you know? So—and if I get sad, I just sit down and count my blessings, ‘cause I’ve got a lot of them.
I have three children, I have four grandchildren, I have four great-grandchildren, and I have wonderful in-laws. Everybody is good to me. And my husband took care of me. He’s been gone 10 years, but I have somebody do the yard, I have a landscaper, I have, um, a cleaning service to do the house. So I just sit around and watch people work.
All
[laugh]
Lee
I don’t work anymore [laughs].
French
Well we’re—we’re putting you to work today, because you are our resident historian.
All
[laugh]
French
And we’re—we’d love to hear a little bit more about Sanford during World War II. Uh, you graduated from high school in ’42?
Lee
Yeah.
French
And what are your memories of that period—of being in Sanford during the war?
Lee
Well, now, I was working during the war. Um, I was a secretary at the ice plant. And um, and we, um—we iced the cars. That, you know—I didn’t do it.
Unidentified
[laughs]
Lee
The people did. And, um, I kept the records. And, uh, they took all the stuff to troops and everything.
French
These are railroad cars or— or shipping cars? What kind of cars were they?
Lee
They were railroad cars. Railroad cars. It was the—on the tracks out on [Florida State Road] 46. And I think they still—they don’t—I don’t know if the ice plant’s still there.
Dingle
No.
Maliczowski
It was for years, but, uh, I don’t think it is anymore.
Lee
And, um…
French
And you were a secretary at the…
Lee
Mmhmm.
French
Ice plant?
Lee
For a few years. It didn’t really take.
All
[laugh]
Lee
I just did what I was told. And I—but, um, and it—it’s Sanford during the war. We—we had the base[3] out here. And, uh, sometimes we dated the pilots, which was a lot of fun.
All
[laugh]
Lee
But, um, I don’t know.
French
Did you, um—were—were there local rallies or efforts to sort of rally the town’s people? Uh, you mentioned that they decided to melt the cannon, because of the scrap metal drive. Do you remember much about the scrap metal drives, and other things?
Lee
Honey, I got—I—I researched that, and there’s the papers over there.
French
Oh.
Lee
And it—yeah. I wanted to know.
French
And so are these, uh—okay. So these are some of the materials that you—you did all the research on this, you…
Lee
Yes. I did.
French
You went down to the museum?
Lee
Yeah.
French
And um…
Lee
And see? It says, “County League [inaudible] scrap collection on per capita basis.” And, um, I—it was very interesting. It really was. And, and, uh “Legion pole?” Oh, I can’t read…
French
“Legion post will give up cannon in scrap drive.” This is perfect. This is exactly what we were hoping…
Lee
Yeah.
French
To find. You’ve done the work for us. [laughs]
All
[laugh]
Lee
Well…
French
Thank you.
Lee
I wanted to know what was, you know—and this was the Legion Hut.[4]
Maliczowski
And she had pictures made, and—and a frame made, and took the picture out to the Legion.
Lee
And see…
French
Oh, wonderful.
Maliczowski
So they would know.
Lee
And that’s what…
French
Is this also from the museum?
Lee
Hm?
French
Is this from the museum? Or is this a….
Lee
Well, um…
French
This photograph…
Lee
Uh, they took a picture. You see, they didn’t have a picture out at the new Legion Hut. And, um, I thought they should have one. So I went and—and got a picture. And—of the canon, and, um, now—but I couldn’t ever find out who that man was.
French
Mmhmm.
Lee
I guess the ones that were there then were all gone. So I don’t know who he was. But anyway, I had that, um, copied and I framed it and I took it out and I gave it to them, so they’d have a picture of the old Legion Hut.
French
That is wonderful.
Lee
And they put it up.
French
That is wonderful.
Lee
So, anyway…
French
This is great. And this—you—these pictures are from the museum? Is that where you found these?
Lee
Yes. I found them…
French
Great.
Lee
From the paper.
French
Great. Wow. And this is, uh, a handwritten note?
Lee
I had that and I can’t read it now [laughs].
French
Do you rem—what of the—you wrote this for yourself? Or…
Lee
Yes. For me.
French
And what was the—what was the event that led you to write that?
Lee
Well, uh, I think there was something in, um—in the paper about, um…
French
Do you want me to read it?
Dingle
Want me to go look, Mama?
Lee
You can read it maybe. It’s about when Daddy decided to make, um…
Dingle
Oh, oh this is when, um—deciding which precious keepsake you wanted…
Lee
Oh.
Dingle
To write about from your cedar chest.
Lee
Oh.
Dingle
And, um, how Granddaddy wanted you to have something that was from him. And how he went about getting the—the spoke and…
Lee
Yeah.
Dingle
Making the…
Lee
Making my…
Maliczowski
Your rolling pin.
Dingle
Your rolling pin to go in your hope chest. That’s why you wrote that up.
French
And this was from the paper?
Lee
I wrote it up to put in the cedar chest.
French
Oh, to put in the cedar chest. So did you write this?
Dingle
So that people would know what, you know—so that we would know where it came from. We would—we would have a history of why she had it and where it came from.
French
Mmhmm.
Lee
Because, um, I wanted them to know. See, Mama crocheted the bedspread and Daddy wanted to put something in it.
Dingle
Mmhmm.
Lee
So I wrote it…
Maliczowski
Wrote it down for us.
French
So, this is the rolling pin. Do you mind if I…
Lee
Sure.
Maliczowski
Go ahead.
Lee
I just wrap it up. I haven’t used it for a while. But she’s going to use it to make Christmas cookies.
Dingle
Yes. I will.
Lee
You can tell it’s been used.
All
[laugh]
Dingle
Lots of biscuits.
Maliczowski
A lot. Yeah. Biscuit—biscuit [inaudible] and pies.
Dingle
Biscuits and pies are mainly what it did.
French
Mmhmm…
Lee
Mainly it was Daddy’s biscuits.
Dingle
That’s right.
French
So when I read the story about this, we got to talking and—and, uh, thought about Well, what made him think to make a rolling pin out of a spoke? Because he worked at a paper factory, correct?
All
Yes.
French
So he would have been familiar with all the equipment that you could do this with, uh, milling? It’s called “milling?”
Lee
Yeah, but he was superintendent of the Crown Paper Company. That’s when they—they printed they, uh, wrappers. That’s when they wrapped fruit. It was individually wrapped for a long time. They don’t do that anymore. They just pack it in boxes and ship it off. But, um, Daddy was there so—and he was in the [American] Legion, and when they went to send the cannon back, he went to help them dismantle it, and that’s when he got the spoke, and, um, that’s what he could do. He could make me a rolling pin, and that was in ‘42.
Maliczowski
Because everybody needed a rolling pin.
All
[laugh]
Dingle
He was also a carpenter, so he had worked with wood in building this house. And if—if you look on the floor, you’ll see there’s designs in the wood. And…
Lee
And there’s my—my, uh, [inaudible]…
Dingle
Back in the corner. So he was…
Lee
That Daddy had built for me, when I was—yeah.
French
Oh.
Lee
When I was four or five.
Dingle
So he was always thinking of things to do with wood and something else to make and something to do, so I think that just came naturally to…
French
Mmhmm.
Dingle
To do that.
Lee
To do the rolling pin.
Dingle
Something for her.
Lee
It would go in a cedar chest.
All
[laugh]
Dingle
It would fit.
Maliczowski
It would fit.
French
So, do you know the story of the cannon? What was the history of this cannon? Was this someth—it was brought back from World War I?
Lee
Well, yeah. When they built the Legion Hut. Um, I don’t know where they got the cannon. But, um, they wanted a cannon from the First World War. So, I don’t know where they got it. Now they got a cannon out at the other—the other Legion Hut. And I don’t know where they got it. I think they just feel that, you know, it’s history. They had cannons.
Unidentified
Mmhmm.
Lee
It’s an old one. It’s got wooden spokes I think. I haven’t gotten out of the car to examine it, but I’ve driven by.
French
Uh, so, um, what other—do you have other memories of the home front during the war or the end of the war? There’s[sic] certain moments of that period…
Lee
Oh, I remember end of the war. Oh, there was a parade down on First Street, and I remember being [laughs] in the car. And we was[sic] driving, and my cousins were with me, and everybody was screaming and hollering. And Mama remembered the end of the First World War. And how, um, things were downtown then.
Maliczowski
Now during this time, didn’t Grandma and Aunt Marty still—didn’t they run the grocery store at that time, during the war? Were they running it? [inaudible].
Lee
They came in 1910.
Maliczowski
No, but did they still have the store in the ‘40s?
Lee Yes.
Maliczowski
Okay. Well, tell them about them having the store and one of the reasons—like, during the war they didn’t have this much[sic] problem with food, because they had a grocery store?
Lee
Yeah, but they also had rationing, you know.
Maliczowski
Mmhmm.
Lee
They rationed, uh, meat. They rationed sugar, and, um—and I do remember that.
Maliczowski
They rationed shoes. And tell them what happened with you. She has very tiny feet.
Lee
Oh, yeah. Shoes were rationed. Isn’t that funny? They rationed shoes [laughs]. Oh dear.
Maliczowski
But she had such a hard time finding shoes that everybody—whenever she would find it they would give her their shoe coup—what were they, uh…
Lee
Shoe coupon.
Maliczowski
Shoe coupon, so that she could buy the shoes, because she would—she loved shoes.
All
[laugh]
Lee
Yeah.
Dingle
It was hard for her to find them in her size so if they found a pair that would fit her they…
Maliczowski
They would have to use somebody else’s coupon to buy her a pair of shoes.
French
That’s great. That’s great. Did you know soldiers who had—from Sanford—young men of your age?
Lee
Yes.Yeah. I remember one of the boys in my class, who was killed. He was Fred Dyson[sp]. I remember that. I don’t remember. I don’t remember a lot of them going to war.
French
And the base being nearby—what was—you mentioned the pilots, uh…
Lee
Yeah.
French
Was there—was[sic] there other kinds of connections to the base, besides the kind of social connections?
Lee
Well, um, several of my friends worked out there. And, um, I know Margie married, er, one of the pilots. And, um, a lot of them, you know—I met some of them through friends that worked there. But, um, we didn’t—I mean, they weren’t there that long, you know. You just see ‘em and I know one time we went to New Smyrna [Beach] with a group, uh, a whole—I mean, it was usually in a group. So…
French
You mentioned that after the war, how much Sanford changed. You mentioned I think one of—all the building…
Lee
Oh, yeah.
French
Construction in this area.
Lee
Construction started. Houses were built.
French
And so this little town you grew up in became—started to grow and grow [laughs].
Lee
Yeah. And it’s still growing.
All
[laugh]
Maliczowski
Sanford was lucky, because it was both on the river and it had the railroad.
Lee
Yes.
Maliczowski
So that’s one of the reasons it was able to flourish like it did. And, um, there’s a big hotel downtown—well, now it’s not the hotel anymore, it’s, um, is the New Tribe’s Mission headquarters—world headquarters. It used to be the Mayfair Hotel. And people would come and stay for the winter, and that sort of thing. So it—ya know, it drew a lot of people and brought them here to spend their money in Sanford while they were getting away from the cold.
French
So, um, you stayed. People have come and people have gone. And you’ve been here, uh, and—why did you stay?
Lee
This is my home and I want to stay right here.
French
Uh, you’re surrounded by, uh, a lot of the artifacts of your life. All the great, um…
Lee
Yeah.
French
Pieces of furniture and art and…
Lee
Yeah. Uh huh. And Aunt Marty’s pitcher and bowl when she came in 1910. My grandfather was a doctor in Mount Olive, North Carolina. And when he died, um—he had made a—he bought a small hotel, and he made into a—that’s where he could take patients, and it was like a small hospital. And Aunt Marty worked for him.
But then he died and, um, uh, Uncle [James] came down and he was—he’s the one that started the grocery store, and his friend from here was up there. and he told my Uncle James he would sell him half of the grocery store, and give his son the other half, and—if he would come down. So they all decided to come in 1910.
Now Mama, and Aunt Ruth, and Grandma stayed up there ‘til they got the house built on Laurel Avenue. It burned down later. And, um, that’s when they came and Mama went to grammar school to the high school. And then they built the new—what was—we went to junior high. And it was the high school, and that’s where Mama graduated in 1913. And so Uncle James had started the grocery store—I mean, he was half-owner. But then his son didn’t like it, and he sold his half [laughs]. So it was [inaudible] and it was all during the war.
French
And do you have memories of the store?
Lee
Huh?
French
Do you have memories or picture of the store? Do you have any photographs of the store?
Lee
Ya know, it—it’s down—the building is still there, and it’s where The [Sanford] Herald is, right on the corner of Palmetto [Avenue] and First Street. And back then, the city didn’t decorate like they do[sic] now. And every, um, owner of the store would. And I remember Daddy putting— tying the Christmas tree to the lamp post [laughs] and—and decorating it for Aunt Marty. So, because Uncle James died recently, Aunt Marty ran the grocery store, so…
French
Well, some of these stories—well, the one story that—that the Creative San—well, first I wanted to ask you a little bit about how you, um, came to be interviewed for the Creative Sanford play? Do you know the…
Maliczowski
Well, I have a friend who was involved in Creative Sanford during both of the productions they’ve made so far, and I went to school with her sister, and so she knew me, and she knew Mama, and she knew that she must have some kind of story that she can tell. And so she said, “We need to interview Luticia.”
Lee
They came and interviewed me.
Maliczowski
And yeah. So they came and started talking to her and that was the…
Lee
[inaudible]
Maliczowski
Particular story that they decided to go with.
French
So they didn’t know when they came about the rolling pin. They just…
Maliczowski
No. They just knew that she had things.
All
[laugh]
Maliczowski
And stories and that she had been here her whole life. That she—that she was born here and grew up here. And that’s why they wanted to know her view of—I mean, they asked her lots of questions about lots of things, and this was one of the things they felt that they could incorporate into the play.
French
Were you surprised that they chose to tell that story?
Lee
Yes. I was. [laughs] And it was just real neat. And they did it really good[sic].
Unidentified
Yes.
Lee
And—and they—they told ‘em how Daddy did the rolling pin, you know. So we were given front row seats.
Maliczowski
Yeah. In the original, uh—the first play[5] one of mom’s best friends had a story in it. So they—they got so many stories that they couldn’t put them all in the first play. So they put ‘em in—they made a second play.[6] And they’re going to have a third one,[7] I think.
Lee
Yeah.
French
They said they were doing—still doing interviews for…
Lee
I think they’re doing something now.
Maliczowski
Yeah. They—they’re getting ready to.
French
And, um, so the other—I had a third [inaudible] just one other [inaudible] that I forgot in my notes here. Um, um, well, let me ask my—my colleagues here. Other questions that you would like to ask?
No? So we, uh, are also interested in this as a family story. So I’ll just step off the couch here for a minute and just have—if I could ask the two of you to join your mom. And we’ll just talk about it as a—this is a family. Oh, wow.
Dingle
Just if you wanted to see some…
French
Fantastic.
Maliczowski
Here, Cath. you sit in the middle and you get to hold the rolling pin.
Dingle
It’s my rolling pin.
French
So if you wouldn’t mind introducing yourselves.
Maliczowski
I’m Linda Maliczowski. I’m the middle child [laughs].
Dingle
I’m Cathy Dingle. I’m the oldest. Our brother’s not here. He’s the baby.
French
And so you, um, were you part of the—the original interview. I know if you were, because you had the connection to your friend.
Maliczowski
Right. And I live here.
French
And you live here.
Maliczowski
In Sanford.
French
And so, um, for you, um, this is a—a family heirloom. And, um, as you told the story, it—you—your memory of this is not just in a hope chest, but, as, uh something your mom used and…
Maliczowski
Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean we grew up with her doing that and eventually she told us all about it. But I mean, when someone would say, “Go get the rolling pin,” you knew what to get [laughs] and that was it. We had one rolling pin.
Dingle
And I really remember mostly biscuits. And pies.
Maliczowski
Biscuits and pies, because I learned how to do pies.
Dingle
Yes. And I learned to make a lot of biscuits with it so…
French
So for you, the memories attached to it are family memories? Not, not World War II, American Legion, home front, sacrifice.
Dingle
No. It’s Mama baking with it. Using it.
Maliczowski
She also made donuts.
Dingle
Donuts. That’s right.
Maliczowski
We had to roll them out and cut them with the little donut thing.
Dingle
Cut them and fry them. Yes.
French
Well, one of the things that that makes me think about is that people cooked like that all the time, and now it’s more rare[sic]. And you have a choice, whether you want to do that. It’s not part of our everyday lives to have a rolling pin but you still, uh—I’m sorry, but who’s getting the rolling pin?
Maliczowski
Cathy.
Dingle
Yeah.
French
You still cook and you…
Maliczowski
Oh, yes.
French
So does that make you feel connected in some way through the, you know—through the [inaudible]?
Dingle
Yes, because, you know, I remember Mama using it and I remember it, you know, in this house. And I remember it in our other house, and my granddaughters will help me use it. So, in fact, one asked me last week, she says, “Are we going to get to make Christmas cookies and use a rolling pin?” I said, “Yes. We are.”
All
[laugh]
Dingle
So they’re—they’re used to that.
French
And, um, do you—do you also have things like recipes and cookbooks, and things like that, that are…
Dingle
Oh, yes.
French
We have a student in our class who’s studying cookbooks. It’s actually a historical subject and an interesting one.
Dingle
Oh [laughs].
Maliczowski
There’s so many.
Dingle
Oh, so many. Yes.
French
So, uh, one of the things we’ve been thinking about in our class is the connection between personal stories and personal history. And then there’s the community history— Sanford. And then there’s national and world history. And I think that’s what’s unique about this object is that it connects all of them, you know?
Maliczowski
Yeah. Mmhmm.
French
So we really thank you so much for sharing that story with us, and sharing your time with us. The only—the other thing is if, if it would be okay with you for us to take still photographs of some of these objects, uh, for inclusion in the exhibit.
Maliczowski
Sure.
French
That would be wonderful. Thank you.
Dingle
No problem.
French
Do you—do you want anything else that we should talk about on the—the…
Orleman
No. the recording—I think we’re…
Dingle
We’re good?
Orleman
Yeah.
French
Okay. Very good. Thank you so…
One quick question, because we were talking about this before was the, um…
Maliczowski
Fireless cooker.
Dingle
Fireless cooker.
French
Fireless cooker, which is over there. But could you just tell us the story of the fireless…
Lee
My—my son, um—he, um, went online [clears throat] to find out more about it [clears throat]. And he said that in one of the—years ago, presidents had one in his[sic] house, but I don’t remember.
Dingle
But they—tell him where this one came from.
Lee
This one came from, um, Miss Bessie.
Dingle
Yup
Lee
And it—well, I already told you.
Maliczowski
Yeah, but they want to video it. They want to…
All
[laugh]
Lee
[laughs] I’m at it again. [clears throat] Well, in 1910, when my aunt came down, when she roomed in Miss Bessy’ house[?]. Her mother—[clears throat] excuse me. Her mother had a boarding house, and she did not cook on a Sunday, so she had the fireless cooker—that one. And, um, she would put the—the—it’s all there. Every piece. And the stones that had the thing to hook and put them in her fire. She had a wood stove. When they got hot, she’d put them in the fireless cooker. And then she would get her food hot on—in the pans, put them in, and close it up, and it would cook all night. And when she came home from church on Sunday, she’d open it up and she could serve it, but she didn’t have to cook. So that’s what—and my husband was fascinated with it. I said, “What do we do with it?” He says[sic], “I don’t care what we do with it. It’s a chest.” So it’s been in the living room in the old house. I told you we were in the French house years ago.
French
Yes.
Lee
And that’s where we raised the kids. And Mama was—was still here and my aunts. And, um, [clears throat] so, um—where was I?
Dingle
You had it in the old house and then you brought it here.
Lee
Yeah. I had it in the living room over there, and then I brought it here. So the fireless cooker’s always been in the living room. It’s been a piece to show people.
Dingle
But we never used it.
Lee
No. never used it.
Maliczowski
I plan on using it someday. Tell them about, um, how they used to use them during the war.
Lee
Oh, well, yeah. When Jimmy [Lee] researched it, he said they were used during the First World War—fireless cookers—mainly in tanks, so they could put the food in the cooker, and then they could go where they were going. And they would have the food.
Maliczowski
Mmhmm.
Lee
So, uh…
Maliczowski
We don’t know where they got this one, but we’re glad they did.
All
[laugh]
Maliczowski
So…
Lee
So, but that’s—and they had—had—in fact, I used to get the [inaudible] magazine. And somebody had put theirs in, only it was just a one, but they made one, and they made two, and ours is a three.
French
Great.
Lee
Three—whatever.
Dingle
Three pans [laughs].
Maliczowski
Three pots.
Dingle
Three pots.
Lee
Yes.Three pots
French
And you mentioned the French house. Where—what was the address of the French house?
Dingle
113 West Fifteenth Street.
French
Is it still there?
Dingle
It is. If you go up Oak Avenue—if you’re going up Oak, then you have to go around…
Maliczowski
You would run into the house.
Dingle
You would run into the house if you went straight up, but—yeah.
Maliczowski
My husband and I bought the house from Mom and Dad. And we lived there for quite a few years. We sold it when my son was about 13.
French
Oh, okay.
Maliczowski
And, it…
Lee
Just a minute.
Maliczowski
Yeah. Do you have the thing from when we sold it?
French
So this is one of the—the—the same French as French Ave[nue] and…
Maliczowski
Yeah. French Avenue was his brother.
French
Oh, okay.
Maliczowski
There was an A. J., um, Seth and A.J. French. And, um, the man who owned our house was the mayor. I think he was the second mayor.
Dingle
I think so.
Maliczowski
Mom might remember, but he was one of the first mayors of Sanford.
French
Oh, okay. Great. But this was the house that was built by…
Maliczowski
Right. And my grandmother was living here.
French
I see.
Maliczowski
And then when Mom and Dad—when they first got married, we lived over in Orlando and we moved over here when were seven and eight years old. And they found—that house was available so they bought that house. And we were there—the whole family—from when they bought it and then when I sold it, we were there for over 50 years.
French
Great. Wow. So, uh, this is great. I think, Andrew [Orleman], we can, uh—we’ll wrap up the…
Maliczowski
Oh, she’s got the, um—yeah. This isn’t what I was thinking but this is—it was on the Sanford our of home so…
French
Oh, okay. I went two years ago. I didn’t—okay.
Lee
That’s what it looks like now.
French
Okay.
Lee
But it looked like that [inaudible].
Maliczowski
Well Mom and Dad, when we were growing up it was [inaudible]…
Print reproduction of original black and white postcard: Photographic Collection, box 3, folder Businesses--Hotels, General Collection, UCF Public History Center, Sanford, Florida.
Photographic Collection, box 3, folder Businesses--Hotels, General Collection, UCF Public History Center, Sanford, Florida.
General Photographic Collection, Student Museum and UCF Public History Center Collection, Sanford Collection, Seminole County Collection, RICHES of Central Florida.
Copyright to this resource is held by the Student Museum and is provided here by RICHES of Central Florida for educational purposes only.