Schneider
Today is Friday, November 14th, 2016. My name is Sarah Schneider and I am conducting an oral history interview with Patrick Herman of the Orlando Gay Chorus. The interview is being conducted at the interviewee’s residence in Orlando, Florida. Thank you for being here and talking with us today.
Herman
Um, you’re welcome.
Schneider
Um, can you please state your name for us?
Herman
Um, um, my name is Patrick Herman. Um, and like you said, I—I, uh, sing for—with the, uh, Orlando Gay Chorus. And have been doing it for six years. And, um—and it’s just a really great experience. Uh, it’s probably one of the—yeah, I look forward to it every week. Just rehearsals and the shows. So, you know, it’s really all about singing I think mostly. It’s really why I joined. I think that’s why most people joined. So…
Schneider
And so can you tell us where you were born and how long you’ve lived in Orlando?
Herman
Oh, uh. Well, um, I go way back. I’m, you know—this year I’ll be 60. So, uh, I was born actually in, um [clears throat]—in Washington, D.C. You know? I was, uh, one of s—six children. You know? I have six si—siblings. But I was the third of the six. And—and we lived in, uh, you know, uh—in Washington, D.C. My dad was in the army. And so, uh, it was one of the many places we lived. Uh, because he was in the service, we traveled a lot. So—so before I, um—before I graduated from college, um, I had traveled, uh, to numerous places and lived in many states.
So, um, how I ended up in Orlando was, um, that I did have family in Florida. And when I graduated from, uh, Penn State[1], um, you know, I decided I would live—you know, move to where I had family in Florida, which was, uh, uh, near Tampa. Which—New Port Richey. So, um—so—and then, um, it wasn’t—then I actually, uh—when I was there, I actually, uh, got a job and went back to school. And then got another degree. And ended up in, uh, Fort Lauderdale. And moved there for about twenty-some years. And then needed a change. So Orlando was the, you know—the ne—it was a—it had a job offer and I took it. So that was 12 years ago.
SchneiderHerman
Um, well, I—I joined probably about six years ago. Um, you know, looking for something to do that I’ve done before. When I was in, uh, Fort Lauderdale, I was also in a chorus there, too. The Fort Lauderdale Gay Men’s Chorus. And, um—and I enjoyed that a lot. You know? Something about, you know, being a part of a group and—and, um, singing, which, you know, i—I think, uh, that, you know, just that experience alone is, uh, an amazing, great experience for anybody.
You—and so when I moved here, you know, I—I, uh—I eventually looked up doing, uh, the chorus here as well. The only difference is—is this is a mixed chorus, where the one in Fort Lauderdale that I had experience with was, you know, an all-male chorus. So—but it’s been great. Just, uh, getting to know all the people.
Schneider
And can you tell us about one of your favorite—or some of your favorite productions or performances that you’ve done?
Herman
Oh, um. Well, they do two shows a year. And, um, the chorus does like a spring show and they also do a Christmas show. And—and, um, hmm. You know, it’s hard to say because usually it’s—usually you just, uh, like it just because of the music that you’re doing. You know? You start to find, you know, there’s a lot of songs that you really enjoy doing.
So—when I first started doing it, I was—you know, I got a lot more involved and was actually, you know, in the front [inaudible] row of dancers, too. I said, “Well. Let me try that as well.” And, uh, so it was sort of funny because, um, they, um—the direct—the—let me think—the person that was, uh, in charge of the dance troupe, um—the one that, uh, did most of the choreography, uh, would tell me that basically, uh, you know, when you c—when you’re not as knowledgeable at dancing, they usually just put something in your hand and—and then—and so you’re—so I found myself with something in my hand a lot [laughs]. But otherwise, um—so I did that for a while, but then I realized that, um—that it was just taking up a lot of my time. So I went back to just, you know—just singing and not pf—you know, dancing or anything like that.
But, um, yeah. There’s been a lot of good shows actually. Um, I can’t particularly say one was better than the other. But it’s really just the songs, you know, that I like.
SchneiderHerman
Oh, yeah. I’ve been in three of them. And, eh, from—if you’ve ever, uh, heard anybody talk about them, they’ll tell you that they’re really a life-changing experience. And—and, uh, when you go there, it—it’s—it’s like—it’s like a celebration. It’s really a festival. But—and it’s not a competition or anything like that. It’s really just like coming together with, uh, likeminded people that really enjoy, um, performing.
And, um—but, um, one of the most amazing things that I’ve found being in the GALA is just the accolades that you get. I mean, you—you know, here we perform in maybe f—in front of like, uh, uh, a[sic] audience of maybe 800 people. Five to 800 people. There you have full[sic] house, um, of 2,500 people. And—and they give you standing ovations every song. And just—it—it’s just amazing. I mean you come out of, uh, the theater after a performance and you’re—and you’re met with r—you know, people lining up along the—you know, the hallways and the—and the passages out. Just applauding you all the way out. I—it—it—it’s—it’s quite unreal [laughs]. It’s—it’s—we have our own little world of, um—of people that just really appreciate what they do. You know? So—and when you’re really good, then y—y—you know, the accolades are amazing. I mean—but just full houses, you know, the whole time. And—and s—it’s like thousands of people. More than, uh, like whatever scene that they show here. You know? So—I can’t even describe it. It’s just great. You know? Just that whole experience.
So [sighs] yeah. It’s always fun. I’ve done three and, um—over a period of time. And the last two have been in the same city. So that—that was fun ‘cause I got to go back and see, um, people that, you know—that I knew from that city as well.
Schneider
Mmhmm. And…
Herman
So…
Schneider
…do you—are you comfortable sharing what city that was in?
Herman
Um, well, with—the last, um, two GALAs have been in Colorado. Denver, Colorado. And, um, so tha—I just happened to have been dating somebody that—long distance that w—w—his hometown was in Denver. So I spent a lot of time in Denver seeing him. A—and so like half and half doing the show and half’s, you know, seeing my friend. So it was kind of nice.
Schneider
And where was the other, um…
Herman
Oh…
Schneider
…[inaudible] at?
Herman
…the other one was, um—it was when I was with, uh, uh, the Fort Lauderdale [Gay Men’s] Chorus. Um, that was in Tampa[, Florida]. And that was my first. And—and so that’s when I first got the taste of like having, um, you know, those accolades and the—and the large crowds of people that, you know—that fill theaters.
So it’s just—I mean I—I think that was the amazing thing is—I mean is, you know, you’re with a group of talented people here in Orlando. But can you imagine being in—in a place where the talent just comes from all over the world? I mean d—y—you—you see—uh, I—I get, you know—the one thing I find that—that’s so amazing is that, you know, it’s a—it’s a whole bunch of people from all walks of life. You have men, women. You have s—you have all, um, you know, uh, genders. And, um, you have colors of, you know, all races and colors. And—and—and we’re all—we all get along. And we all just, you know—just build on—I mean, um, the world could really learn from, you know—if everybody could just be a chorus, that would be amazing. You know?
So when you—when you see that and you see that—that old, young, men, women, all, you know—a—all just come together. Just—just without—it’s like a—a peaceful time. And, I mean, I—I—that’s I think why it’s so amazing. You know? And that’s why I—I even like the chorus here. And just doing the chorus here. You know? It’s a group of people that comes with many different religions and all kinds of different backgrounds. But we, you know—we really enjoy just doing this whole performance for—for the people that we like and love in our families. So, uh, i—that’s the experience that you really get from it I think.
SchneiderHerman
Okay.
Schneider
…I was wondering, um, how you first heard about Pul—the Pulse shooting.
Herman
Um, I was, um—you know, let me think about that one because, uh—what was I doing? I have—I think what it was is, um, I—I woke up and, you know—you know how people—you get on Facebook. That’s kind of the first thing you do. Or you—y—you know, you—and—and that’s where you start seeing what’s—has happened in the last day or so. You know? I think that, you know, our social media is really like just y—you can just find out things that are happening in like d—not—you know, immediately. And so we live in a culture now where we have the technology to just hear about something that happened like the night before.
Uh, and so I think—think that’s where I was. I think I was just like looking through Facebook and—and I saw that there had been some—something that hap—had happened. And, um, you know, so, uh—I just—I’m trying to remember like, you know, exactly what—what it was. I think it was pretty much Facebook if I recall. You know? Or my friend. My one friend that usually calls me or something if I haven’t gotten on Facebook and maybe told me or something. I don’t exactly remember.
Schneider
And do you remember what your reaction was or what your thoughts were when you first heard?
Herman
Um, well, you know, I think that a—at that time, when—when the news was coming out, we weren’t quite sure, like, you know, the extent of, like, what had happened. Everybody was kind of like, you know, just, um, uh—just—just l—um, how would you put it? Um, just in the dark about, like, you know, uh, how many people wha—w—you know? What was involved. Who was in there. All we knew that what it was—was a shooting. We didn’t know, like, who it was. You know? I think at that point in time I think I didn’t n—stop looking at the news. And—and just watched the whole time.
I also have a roommate who’s younger. He’s about twenty-some years old. And i—and just to see him go through that. You know? That—because he’s a, you know—he—he would be someone that would have gone to the Pulse. Um, I stopped really going out to clubs a long time ago. They—so this was pretty much a young person club. And so, um, he knew more people. He was more connected. And so I kind of lived like a little bit vicariously through his experience and what was going on. And, uh—and really just, um, you know, uh, uh—like I said, I wasn’t—I didn’t know people in the club, but I knew people that knew people. And—and in a small town like this, you kind of know—everybody’s kind of connected. So you kind of feel for even your friends. You know? I mean we all had kind of a story to tell about like, um, who we knew and how—what they were going through pretty much.
Schneider
Um, and so you mentioned you watched the news. Was there anything else in particular you did on that Sunday? Um, do you remember what—what you did the rest of the day?
Herman
Mm. N—no. I don’t even recall. I just know that we were just—you know, just trying to find out, you know, um, like, you know, if—how many people were—were sur—you know, were—were hurt. And if there—how many survivors there were. And—and you really found yourself just getting totally involved in finding out. Like, I mean, I think I—I watched every news story that came out. And—and saw all the, um, you know, the—th—the interviews of the people talking about what they were going through. So I think that we were all kind of like just doing that at that point in time.
Schneider
So can you talk a little bit about the, um—the [Orlando Gay] Chorus’s response to the shooting and what sort of happened with the Orlando Gay Chorus in the days and in the weeks following?
Herman
Well, I mean, for me i—i—i—it seemed like, um, we were all—the chorus was kind of taking a new direction. You know? I mean, it had always been a chorus that did outreaches, I mean, you know, to the community at large. I mean we’ve always done that. We—you know? We’ve always performed at—at certain places. Like, um, you know, there’s an elderly care facility that we’ve performed at. And we’ve done [Come Out With] Pride [Orlando] events and those kind of things. And—and we’ve done—and we’ve kind of geared ourselves towards—like just doing the national anthem. You know? We—when someone needed that in—i—you know, in their group or something.
Um, the outreaches hadn’t been, you know—I mean, you know, we—now that we have a new director, we—we’re starting to—and we had some other people that really get totally involved in outreaches. So, um—so the outreaches before the Pulse were just, you know—basically just, you know, like, “Yeah. We’ll do a—we’ll do your wedding ceremony or something like that. Or we’ll—we’ll do a song for, you know—for, uh—for the, uh—like if you want the—the, you know—the, um, national anthem or something.
But then after Pulse, um, we f—we found that the—they’re—they start to do, uh, vigils. You know? And, um, I think that that’s what—and—and I hadn’t gone to any of the—the first ones. Mostly because they were kind of telling us, you know, that, um—that, uh, c—they—the city was sort of waiting for—for a time when they could have an organized one where they could have like, um, security there. And they were kind of concerned about, uh, you know, the s—community in general. And putting guys—you know, doing something like this, um, that wasn’t like an official thing that they could s—you know, make sure that they had the manpower. ‘Cause they—I think, uh, at this point they were sort of stressed out that the—the police department, you know—trying to, you know, look into, you know, what was happening with the, um—what—with the shooting. And if there was, uh, you know, anything else. Th—so they couldn’t guarantee the safety of—of ‘em.
But the—what ended up happening was the first vigil that was, um—was announced, um, ended up to[sic] become, uh, a huge one. And I—I kind of stayed away from ‘em because we were all kind of concerned like that, you know, that—you know, that they wouldn’t have the, uh, you know—the, uh, security in place. So—so I didn’t really get involved with the first or[sic] one. But then, um—but when they did decide to have an official one, then—then I did that one. But, um—but the first one, you know, I—I watched from, you know, the—the videos afterwards. And it became like the—the—the one that they did at Dr. Phillips [Center for the Performing Arts] became—that became the—sort of the—the—the one that was representing our city all around the world.
Um, you know, uh, um, after that, then i—you know, uh, they—they started doing the memorial services and stuff, too. It wasn’t that long after, you know, that. And that’s when, um, we started to go and—and do these like small things at, um—for some of the people that were in there. Uh, I, uh—I was—I was feeling kind of, I mean, that—the whole thing about doing a memorial service is—is sort of—you feel almost displaced. Like i—it’s a surreal feeling, you know, that—you know, that—and—and you’re not quite sure—I mean, ‘cause, you know, a chorus is really a—a group that’s there to entertain. We were never, you know—we—that—to take on the role of—of being, uh, um, somebody that, uh, sh—that is comforting the community was certainly something I wasn’t really prepared for.
So it—so after a while, um, it—I found that it’s—it—that, um, it was kind of, um—it started to wear—weigh on me a little bit I think. Um, and—and the whole, you know, I mean, and—and I don’t know. I just think that you’ve—you’ve found—I found myself, um—and I didn’t—I—like I—that I couldn’t find someone that I could communicate with on what was happening to me. You know? When we—you know, h—i—i—it—it sort of—you start to feel kind of a guilt or something.
Um, that—the reason I say that is because, um, you know, p—before the Pulse, you know, we—we were a small group that, you know, struggled to be known in the community. And then, uh—and then a lot of, uh, organizations started asking us to come to do something for them. You know? Um, and not necessarily of—of—of—of a vigil or—or memorial. But just something representing, you know, the LGB[T] community. And one of the—and that’s when, um, we got one of the most amazing, um, uh, events that, you know, I thought I ever like really sang at—was, you know—I mean there—there are two that, eh, you—you did ment—you did ask me what, you know, there—if there were a couple things that stand out, um, um, uh, being in the chorus. And the one, and this is—this i—was before the Pulse—was that the Dr. Phillips Center [for the Performing Arts] had asked us at—to perform songs for them. And it was a concert called “A Salute to the American Flag”. And to me, that was just—at that—that—that’s up there with the GALA Choruses. I mean, you know, to be—to represent, um, the—to be a part of the Dr. Phillips, um—I mean, uh, the, uh, Orlando Philharmonic [Orchestra], um—those are the ones that asked us to—to be part of this, uh, “Salute to the American Flag”.
So we did this concert at the Bob Carr [Theater]. And, uh—and we had like over like a hundred peop—of our chorus members there. And—and a—at—you know, what was really cool was after the reviews came out for this show, they—they actually said that we were like just an amazing group. I mean this was the reviews from the Sun [Orlando?] Sentinel saying that we sounded amazing. And they even thought that the—that the—the Orlando Philharmonic didn’t have the quality that—that they could’ve had. I think they criticized the way the director did some of the songs. But, you know—but our part was like amazing. So that was the one, uh, that, eh—show that just really stood out for me. I mean just…
And then, um—and the other performance was because of the Pulse and what had happened. And it was, um, that we got to sing halftime for the [Orlando City Soccer Club] soccer game. And so there was like—there’s 36,000 people, you know, at halftime listening to a couple songs we did. And we did this one beautiful rendition of, um—of, uh, Cyndi Lauper’s[3] color—you know, “True Colors” song. Um, so I—I—I have to say, you know, I’m 60 years old and it’s take—it just—I, you know—that alone stands out as the most ama—one of the most amazing things that anybody that’s like gay could ever imagine is to be out and open in—in a na—on a national level. And just being able to—to be who you are and—and have just all these people just accepting you.
And so after that—after I had done that—you know, right after we did that halftime show, you know, I—a—and then even just like s—standing there and having some beers and watching the game, it was just totally the most fun. But I got[sic] to tell you, I felt so—so guilty. And I couldn’t even explain why. It’s just, you know, here’s some—something that happened that—where—where some people lost their lives. And it took that much to—I mean just—I mean I shouldn’t, you know, i—i—can you imagine just the f—the guilt you feel? To have something so amazing, but the lo—but at the price of losing, uh, all these people.And so [laughs], um, when that happened, I—you know, there wasn’t anybody I could reach out to. I mean I had a friend that really—you know, one of my best friends, like I couldn’t get him to understand, you know, why, you know, I was feeling this way. And, you know, like when you have something like that happen and you can’t really have [sniffs]—and you don’t have anybody to talk to. So—so I called my friend [laughs]. I have a good friend in the area that—and like I said, you know, a—and I told her what happened. You know? That a—all this. You know? Tha—these amazing things that happened. But y—you know I—‘cause you know if you grow up 60 years, you never what di—e—experience—you’re always like in the shadows. You never tell people like what your life is like. You know? This—this is what it’s been for s—you know, all my life. And—and so when you’re in groups like this, like the chorus or anything then—and you’re like at festivals, you kind of have these great experiences. But I never would have thought that, you know—that, you know, been a—been able to sing at like the soccer games or stuff like that. That, you know—I mean that was so…
So I asked my friend, Marian[sp]—so Marian[sp], Joe[?] and—came over. And that’s when we went over to one of the, um, candlelight vigils that—that they were holding downtown at the Pulse. And so it was nice to have my friends with me to—to just kind of get me through that—that part of the guilt I think. You know? I mean that’s—that’s kind of what it’s been like. But then that’s a long time ago, so I’ve kind of recovered [laughs]. So kind of like that. Anyway [sighs].
SchneiderHerman
Oh, I th—I think that the community in general has been incredible. I, um—not only the community, but the whole world. I mean, you knew, uh, th—um, when we were at the last GALA [Choruses Festival], um, it was really one of those GALAs that, um, was after the Pulse. So—so we were—they were kind of telling us i—in, you know—at the rehearsals that don’t—“Be prepared because, you know, you’re going to get a lot of, uh, uh, you know—y—you—the response you’re going to get at GALA is going to be different than what you’re used to s—being.”
And so when you come f—from a community, you know, that—where something like this has happened, you know, um—like say for example, what happened in Paris[4]. You know? That sort of thing. You know? The—the world seems to really have come together. I mean and it—when we—what happened in Paris seems to be what was happening to us now. You know? The—the shooting at the nightclub. And then, you know, now—and then what—what we had to experience. You know? You, um—so like the chorus was kind of saying, “When you go to the GALA, you know, just be prepared that, you know—that, um, they—people—the community around you—and—and not only Orlando, but, you know, just every c—every community, um, is going to respond in some manner.”
I mean we—you know, on Facebook alone, you know, tha—there were so many re—positive responses from all over the world, you know, that, um—and we were still getting them even now. You know? I mean there are choruses that are—that are sending us, you know, like—like they’re—they’re having fundraisers and—and sending us, you know, um, uh, funds to help our chorus here. You know? Th—through the next show and all of that. But—and it’s—i—it’s all really re—as a result of the Pulse. I mean it’s just, you know, um, the—everything. The mayor’s [John Hugh “Buddy” Dyer] been great. And, you know, it’s just been just a—a—a—a real, uh, unity that’s—has happened, um, for—for us. And—and so I—I think the chorus is—us—a little part of that, too. You know? I think that we’re just kind of like a—a—a group that, you know,—that, um—that everybody’s kind of, uh, uh—how would I put it? Sharing their experiences with or something, which is kind of an outlet. You know? Kind of an outlet for them I suppose. I don’t know. But, uh. Yeah.
SchneiderHerman
Oh, yeah. I mean when—when we did go to the GALA, uh, they—it—it was, um—it was, uh—it was like a—when you’d go and see like a sho—y—we’d be part of a show, w—we were part of the, uh—the opening ceremonies show, where we kind of just, uh, came up onstage and sang like maybe the last song of—of a—of a—of a song that we were doing with, uh, you know, i—with the other groups. Um, we ended up getting these amazing standing ovation[sic], you know, that just lasted for th—the longest of times. I mean it was, uh, a—a—and when the director started t—talking about, you know, um, the events that occurred up until the time, you know, the—the—all the vigils that we were doing and the memorial services i—i—you know, it was, uh—everybody just kind of stood up. You know?
And then—and then, as even if we would walk through like the, eh—I don’t know if you’ve ever been to Colorado. The—there’s a m—a pedestrian mall, where all the theaters are on one side and there’s like, um—there’s a couple theaters on the other side. But—and then there’s like kind of a parking garage that’s—has some floors on it. Well, the—the—the Cor—the Colorado choruses had all got[sic] together and they just m—um, um, they sang a song, um, and—of, uh—and—and I’m trying to remember. I think it was “America the Beautiful” actually. And they—and then they draped, you know, banners over the—the, um—the, uh, railings that showed that they were su—you know, in support of—of what had happened in Orlando. So they—they had their America—“Orlando Strong” banners hanging as they sang this “American the Beautiful” song. I mean, you know, there’s one thing about songs, it just brings everybody like together. It’s just—it’s just a moving experience. So that—that was just one of the many things.
And any—everywhere you went, you know, there was always—because we wore like little banners that said we were from Orlando. So everywhere you went like we—all throughout the event, you know, you’d get—you’d get just hugs and, you know—that they were think[sic] of you—think of you. And—and, you know, just—just well-wishes. You know? I [sighs]—yeah. It was k—quite an experience I have to say. But, um, yeah.
It’s hard to kind of go on with it, you know? I don’t know if anything like that happens, you’re like—you know, you want your life to go on. You wanted things to—to be settled and to go. But, um—but we s—we still, you know, w—I think we—we’ve changes as a group now. And we’re kind of a group that’s out there for people if they need something. You know? We’re—we’re not just like—we’re—we’ve become like sort of a support group for other groups in town or something. You know? It’s hard to explain. Um, you know?
So—and I don’t want to bring up politics, but they—they have a—they did ask a lot of us to, um, you know—if this is not a—an official outreach for the chorus, but they did ask a lot of us if they—if we wanted to sing for the, uh, president and—when he comes to town on Sunday. So there’s gonna be a bunch of us over there s—s—singing the national anthem. Not me. I didn’t get that email in time [laughs]. But, you know, I’m kind of so happy for my, you know—that my friends that are—had an opportunity to be part of the, uh, election, um, thing that’s happening. So if you get a chance, go over to—to Kissimmee[, Florida] and think the president’s gonna be there.[5] And we’re gonna be singing the national anthem. I mean the, you know—some singers that I know. Not official. Um, oh gee. See, it’s just—just a volunteer thing. So—so that’s kind of exciting for them.
SchneiderHerman
Well…
Schneider
…does it now?
Herman
…that’s a good question. What Pulse, um—what Pulse, uh, mean to me—I mean I—you know I had—I—I had been there before. I mean probably w—like, uh, 10 years ago. I probably went there a few times. You know? And, um, it—it was really, uh, just a—a place to, you know, socialize. Um, you know, uh, the night that—of the tragedy though, I—ey—they, uh—I had heard that it was like Hispanic night, which meant that they would have been doing some like cool dancing. ‘Cause I don’t know if you’ve ever been to like, uh, a place where, uh—where h—you know, they, uh—you know, it’s a kind of Spanish—Spanish—Hispanic music thing. They dance a lot differently than, uh—than regular disco clubs or whatever. ‘Cause, I mean, I—I used to go to the places in Miami. You know? And, I mean, they’re—they—they do salsas and, um, you know—I—I don’t know all the—all the ty—types of dances that they do. But it’s—it’s quite fun. You know? Because it’s—it’s—it’s like couple dancing in a way that, you know—that’s more, you know, where you touch each other as opposed to just, uh, disco music, where you don’t.
So that—I could imagine it would’ve been fun. And if I—actually, to tell you the truth, if I had known that it was like, uh, Hispanic night, I probably would’ve gone just for the dancing. If—if I could find someone to go with, you know, at the time. But—but, uh, no. I—it—for a long time, it hadn’t been any place I would have gone because it’s just, um—there was just a younger crowd. You know? So—though, I mean, I—I’m sure there were people my age there [laughs]. I’m just not a club person these days. So—but I’m—yeah [laughs].
SchneiderHerman
Well, like always—I always hope that, you know, these kind of things can make differences when it comes to like, you know, um, gun control. That sort of thing. That’s really where I hope it goes more than anything. I mean—I mean we just—you know, as a s—as a country, we—I think we, you know—I mean there’s a lot of—you know, being an election year, too, which, uh, makes a big difference—but, um, i—i—i—you know, i—i—there’s all[sic] so much argument[sic] about like h—how and—how we use guns. And—and w—why they go into the wrong hands. And—and, you know, what can we do about it? You know? And I—and I know there—that—that, um—that there’s a lot of disagreement on, you know, like how—how guns should be handled. You know? And—and especially assault rifles. I mean—I mean just that—just i—you know, i—anybody that’s read what happened at the Pulse with—with—with these people that use these assault rifles—I mean these are very destructive. I mean they—they—the, uh, early responders didn’t even know like if they could even get into the building. They didn’t even know how many people were actually in the building. You know? The amount of gunfire that goes off like during that time is incredible. And it—and not only that, but those guns are very destructive. And so, you know, when you’re shot with like a—a—an assault rifle, you’re—you have damage to you—to your body. More so than just, you know—just a gun that just, you know, shoots like a little—little—li—s—ho—you know, handgun.
A—and it just doesn’t make any sense why—why our country, you know, w—what this love affair is with these assault rifles. And—and I know for a fact that—that, you know, there was a law not long ago that—tha—that kind of, eh, kept these kind of guns out of, uh—out of people’s hands. But then, I—I guess, you know, like all—eh, some laws, they—they—they just have a certain period of time. And then they—they, you know, become null and void or something. You know? So I—I’m just hoping that—that, you know, we can as a society adhere—can just find ways—you know, you can get guns on the internet. You can get guns at gun shows. And you don’t even need to have a background search. I mean that’s what I’m kind of hoping. You know? It’s—it’s really about that. You know?
Um, you know, if you’ve read anything about the sh—the guy that—that was in the shooting, you know that he was somebody that just had like really issues. You know? Like more mental issues. So, um, I don’t know. I mean I just—that’s what I would like to see really.
SchneiderHerman
Um, gosh. We talk—covered quite a lot. Haven’t we [laughs]? Uh, w—well, um, like I said, um, you know, uh, the Pulse was—was really a tr—a—a tragedy. And though I didn’t really know anybody like, um, personally, I did know people who did know people. Um, and I just—you know, I just feel s—sorry for any community that ever would have to go through something like this. You know? Um, and the—th—and the reality is—is—is that, you know, un—until the world changes, you know, we’re gonna have this sort of thing. It’s gonna come and it’s gonna happen occasionally. You know? Like different places around the world.
I mean this—this is nothing compared to what’s happening overseas. So—but, uh—but—so that’s why it’s kind of nice to have like the chorus to have, you know—to put some positive part into your life. And so that’s kind of, you know—I’m looking forward to the show. Come—it’s—it’s on December 10th[, 2016]. Um, a little—a little, uh, fu—uh, you know, uh, a little, uh, sales pitch there [laughs].
So yeah. So we’re really just—you know, what I think what it is is I think we’re all just getting back to our lives now. You know? And so that’s, um—you know, it’s been a quite—quite a few months since it’s happened. And—and, um, so it’s nice to just kind of give back and, you know, look forward to—to being a part of that group again. And doing s—something that’s more entertaining and fun and, uh—and positive. So I think that’s really a part of it—i—is that re—you know, you had the tragedies—tragedies, but you also have a lot of things to look forward to. So I’m really looking forward to it. That—that sort of thing. So…
Schneider
Alright. Is there anything else you wanted to share?
Herman
Um, no. I think that’s pretty [laughs]…
Schneider
[laughs].
Herman
…mu—much it. Yeah. It’s quite a[sic] ordeal [laughs].
Schneider
[laughs].
Herman
Um, no. You know? It’s just this. I think, you know, like, um, yeah. I guess the one thing that I would like to say about, um, the chorus is i—it does, uh, benefit people that like, you know—you know, that we come together a lot. That I’m certainly gul—you know, happy that—that I have something that—you know, that—that is very community-oriented. I think that’s really the, uh—one of the things that I really enjoy about it—is that it—is, uh—is that it puts me back into the community. Something that, you know—that—when you’re working every day and you—and y—all your life is pretty much just work and—a—that’s nice to have that outlet. Yeah. So. An—an—an—and I’ve done—an—I’ve had a lot of nice experiences. So—but…
Schneider
Great. Well—well, thank you so much. Thanks for talking with us. We really appreciate it.
Herman
Thank you. Thanks.
[1] Pennsylvania State University
[2] Gay and Lesbian Association of Choruses
[3] Cynthia Ann Stephanie Lauper
[4] November 2015 Paris attacks
[5] President Barack Obama visited Osceola County Stadium in Kissimmee, Florida, on November 6, 2016, in support of Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton’s final push to win Florida.
Schneider
Today is Thursday, November 17th, 2016. My name is Sarah Schneider and I’m conducting an oral history interview with Nick [Nicholas] Agon Kresky of the Orlando Gay Chorus. The interview is being conducted at the UCF[1] Center for Emerging Media in Orlando, Florida.
So thank you for being here today.
Kresky
Thank you.
Schneider
And can you start off by stating your name for us?
Kresky
Sure. My name is Nick Agon Kresky.
Schenider
Thank you. And could you start off by telling us where you were born and how long you’ve lived in Orlando?
Kresky
Sure. Um, I was born in Duluth, Minnesota. I grew up in the upper peninsula of Michigan and I moved to Orlando in 2010.
Schneider
Great. And what brought you to the Orlando Gay Chorus?
Kresky
Um, looking for kind of an outlet. Something different. Um, when I was—when I was younger, growing up in—in Michigan, I was brought to Milwaukee Pride as kind of a celebration of my high school graduation. And I got to see the—I think they were the Brew City Chorus. Um, it was LGBT[2] chorus over in Milwaukee.
And when I moved to Orlando, I was like, “Orlando’s big enough. They should have something.” So I went and I Googled it. And sure enough, there they were. Hm.
Schneider
Um, and so can you tell us about some of your favorite productions or performances…
Kresky
Mmhmm.
Schneider
…you’ve done through the chorus.
Kresky
Um, my first performance was “Rainbows over Broadway”. It was a 2011 spring concert. And I really enjoyed that one because it was just a—a lot of campy fun. Just kind of ceb—celebrating the community. Um, and then I—I’m not a fan of the music from our “Pillow Talk” performance. I like the cohesion and the—we—it had a great storyline. Lots of, um—lots of [inaudible], so—and I—I like a show with good production.
Schneider
Mmhmm. Um, and did—I’m not sure if I already—if you already said…
Kresky
Mmhmm.
Schneider
…how long have you been a part of the [Orlando] Gay Chorus?
Kresky
I’ve been with the chorus for about five and a half years.
Kresky
Uh, yeah. I’ve been in two different GALA events.
Schneider
Okay. And, um, where were those located?
Kresky
They were both in Denver[, Colorado]. So I think 2012 and 2016 as well.
Schenider
Okay. And can you tell me more about the 2012 GALA event and what your experience was like there?
Kresky
Sure. Um, in 2012, uh, I had needed a little bit of escape, too. And I’d—I finished relationship[sic] months and months prior. And I’d just kind of started a romantic interest with another chorus member. Um, and then we, uh—yeah. 2012 I guess was just more about learning about the—the gay choral movement. I never knew there was an actual movement. And, um, kind of learning about the sense of community that comes from gay choruses. Mm.
Kresky
Mmhmm.
Schneider
…you tell me a little bit about how you first heard about the Pulse shooting?
Kresky
Sure. Um, my husband, Manny, and I were working on renovations at the house. So we’re stuck sleeping downstairs on these little [inaudible] beds. And we started getting f—like random phone calls and text messages. And it’s really early in the morning and we were trying to sleep. I had to work in the morning. I’m like, “I’m old and I’m tired [laughs].” So I’m checking the messages and everybody’s checking to see if we’re okay. And I mean instantly, your mind is, “What’s—what’s going on?” It’s—that’s when we were going into Facebook and the media. Um, checking CNN.com. You realize that there’s an incident at Pulse happening. And then we’re having to reassure everybody at three o’clock in the morning that we’re okay. Please let us sleep. We did not really know the gravity of the situation ‘til much later.
Schneider
And, um, what did you do the rest of that Sunday?
Kresky
Um, that Sunday I actually had to turn—go into work. Um, and so I got in there, um—it was a[sic] early morning shift. So, of course, you had all those phone calls. And then you’re like, “I have to report to work.” And I work at a—a local theme park with lots of young people. People that have been out in the clubs all night. So, you know, would they—that’s when they started doing body counts. And we’re sitting in the break room, getting ready to start our day. And we didn’t know who was going to show up and who wasn’t.
Schneider
Um, and what were your thoughts as sort of the rest of the day unfolded and as—in those few days following Pulse?
Kresky
It was completely surreal because when you’re out working with guests, you had to ignore that it even happened. It’s—that’s—you know, escapism is all—is all about the theme park industry. And as a—as a[sic] employee, you have to go out there and escape with them. Nothing bad ever happens at a theme park. And so you had to take that part of your brain and—and switch it off. And you’re really walking a fine line of fantasy and reality. Mm.
Kresky
It was—it was insane. You just did—out of—out of nowhere, we started just getting emails and messages as—as members, um, from—from our leadership. And we’ve got—we’ve been asked to go in the first—the first night we were asked to do a vigil over at the church [Joy Metropolitan Community Church]. We were asked—um, over at [Joy] MCC. And we were asked not to advertise anything about it on social media because we didn’t really know really how dangerous the environment was going to be. And so this was—it was all kind of under wraps.
And at that time, it was such a shock for—for myself that I had—had declined the invitation. But then, the following day, when they had decided to go and do the—the performance at, uh, Dr. Phillips Center [for the Performing Arts]. Then I decided, yes. It’s about time just to kind of gauge, you know, what—what community am I walking out into [clears throat]?
Um, the chorus’s response was just incredible though. It was very, uh—it was probably the most recognized I’ve ever seen us. You know? We—we’re—we’re all about singing. We’re all about going out and having fun with a message. And now, we’re expected to take all of these cats and herd them. And tell ‘em where to be and how to be. And we—we had just invested in this, um—oh, goodness—Chorus Connection, which is a—a really great app, um, and, uh, kind of organizational software for choruses. And so we were able to just, within an hour or two, respond to a vigil request. And, you know, you all of a sudden have representation. We’d never been that organized [laughs] before that [inaudible].
Schneider
Mm.
Kresky
So…
Schneider
Mm. And, um, so what was your experience, as a member of the [Orlando] Gay Chorus…
Kresky
Mmhmm.
Schneider
…um, participating in vigils and memorial services and other events?
Kresky
Um, it was—it was a mixture of trying to find some sort of self-sooving[sic]—self-soothing and trying to project a—a message of caring and wanting to support the greater community. You know? You’re, eh—you’re, uh—in the end, you’re trying to figure out who’s actually supporting you. Um, and just kind of coming to a realization that, you know, we were all in it together. We were all supporting each other. Whether it be, you know, a person standing three hundred, four hundred people back. Or, you know, a person standing next to you onstage.
Kresky
It was extremely overwhelming. It—I—I grew up in a really rural, conservative area that’s—I mean I g—I grew up in a time where—or—and in a place where being gay could, you know, send you home in a black bag. Like that was—it was a dangerous time. You don’t talk about it. You don’t act on it. Um, and then I come into this community, where, you know, the—it was like the second night and we’re still trying to figure out how many people and what was going on. And then you have this huge gathering, you know, right on the lawn of the Dr. Phillips Center [for the Performing Arts]. And you look out there and there’s—there’s no more green space. There were so many people there. It was just—it was so surreal to see that level of support for the LGBT community. And then, you know, the city as a whole. Mm.
Kresky
Um, I think, uh, you notice [laughs] I won’t say. They had the—they had the, um—at the dogs. They had the, uh—I—I don’t know how many times that I—I was in human services for 10 years. And I really s—believed in pet therapy. I loved it. And I knew that in times of crisis, people would come in with these therapy dogs. And, you know, it was just to kind of bring a little soothing and maybe even kind of just ground you, if just for the moment.
And I realized the gravity of the situation. And how much of a—how much of a tragedy on our community it is. Again, this was all surreal. I mean, there was—there was no reality to this. And I realized how bad it was when the therapy dogs were there. And they had traveled miles to get there. And they’re walking through the crowd with these dogs. Because this is something I had studied. This is something that I knew. And it felt great because in participating in the—you know, [inaudible] on the dog that’s there. But, again, to realize the reality of the situation that these dogs were there. Mm.
SchneiderKreksy
Mmhmm.
Schneider
…reactions to the event beyond just the local community?
Kresky
Um, can you rephrase the [inaudible]?
Schneider
Um…
Kresky
Sorry.
Schneider
…what did you think about the reaction of people beyond Orlando to the Pulse shooting?
Kresky
Um, I guess as the chorus traveled, we got to maybe s—witness, uh, a very la—a very large—I guess a greater view of that. I mean you he—you see—you see responses on CNN. You see responses on Facebook. You—and you’re—and you’re watching the feeds and whatnot. But, you know, you realize s—support, but you didn’t really feel it until you walked to the car rental desk. And they look at your driver’s license and they say, “Oh. Orlando.” And then they want to talk about it. And they want to—they’re looking for some sense of closure as well. You don’t realize that it hurt our community. It hurt our city. But it also impacted the nation pretty heavily for the couple weeks that it was running in the media.
I think we, even after Denver, um—Manny and I—my husband and I went to, uh, California for a couple of days. And, you know, you couldn’t esc—we were trying to just escape Pulse for a little bit. We’re just gonna go have fun and unwind. But when you hand over your—your driver’s license or they ask you to fill in the visitor’s book and then they say, “Orlando,” or then they want to talk about it, you realize that it comes from a place of genuine warmth and kindness. But it’s, again, very overwhelming. You—you—you realize how big this was.
SchneiderKresky
Mmhmm.
Schneider
…in 2016—so after Pulse—and what that experience was like?
Kresky
Whew. That’s—that’s a lot to tell [laughs].
Schneider
[laughs].
Kresky
Um, we—in 2—and we’re talking about 2012 or 2016?
Schneider
Um, 2—whichever do you like.
Kresky
Okay.
Schneider
But I…
Kresky
Sure.
Schneider
…I was thinking 2016.
Kresky
So in 2012, you know, we were just—we’re the campy little choir with the Mickey [Mouse] ears. And everybody loves to come see Orlando because we bring the fun. And we bring—you know, we bring the little silly with us. And—and, you know, we are—our songs tell a story. It’s a very kind of—you get the warm fuzz and you leave.
This year—this time when we went, we didn’t—we didn’t even have to sing to—to get accolades. To get warmth through, um—the first day, we were—we were invited to a singalong with a couple of the choruses. And we’re basically just kind of backup. Right [laughs]? It was walking in, uh, doing—doing our lines and then leave. And the crowd didn’t let us leave. The crowd—cr—crowd wouldn’t even let the concert start. Because we were—we’re the last people to walk into the hall. Nobody announced us. They just saw our shirts. And there was an immediate standing ovation. Just because we were walking [cries] by. Just because we were walking to the hall.
You could, um—I mean you could see—just our presence, you could see people crying. You could see them holding each other. And its hard—it—initially, it was hard because we were the group that was invoking tears. But then you realize we were the group that was [clears throat]—we were the group that was invoking solidarity. [sniffs] There were—there were banners everywhere that says[sic], you know, “We Stand with Orlando,” “Orlando Strong.” Um, you know, these are probably from people that may have never even been to our city. And there they are standing with us. All supporting us because, you know, their brothers and sisters were attacked.
It was—we—we performed three different times when really we’re—initially s—we were supposed to only perform once. We were supposed to perform this cheesy little montage that we pulled over from our—our spring show. And it just—within moments of—of the incident, we realized we had to go ch—completely change the whole set. And pull from wherever we could to create something that was, uh, you know—that was heartfelt. That would maybe bring about some sort of healing.
Um, w—we had—so we had our invitation for the first night. Then we did our performance. Um, and again, the—the—these performances are timed, so the minute you hit the stage, you have x amount of minutes to perform and get off. They moved our set to the end ‘cause they knew they couldn’t time us. They knew that just by walking on the stage we would have to wait for the applause to end. And it was right. We walked in. There was standing room only. We’ve never had that before [laughs]. I mean we—the—the amount of—of support and warmth that outpoured was just incredible. And then—then there we were again, um, for, my goodness—it was En—was it “Engendered Species”? I can’t even remember. There were so many [laughs].
And, again, it was just our presence that just kept on bringing the crowds of people wanting to feel like they were a part of—of us. And I—and I really hope that, you know, we were able to make that happen for them. That we were able to help them find some kind of closure or some sort of healing as well. Mmhmm.
SchneiderKresky
Sure. The—the first night, I was afraid to even wear my Orlando shirt because I knew people would want to talk to us about it. And I personally wasn’t ready. I did not want to—I did not want to be Orlando. I just wanted to be a GALA singer. And then you run out—you run out of clothes. No. I’m kidding [laughs]. No. Um, I—it just—I saw some of the other chorus members wearing their shirts. Realized it was going to be okay to wear mine. But as soon as I put it on, like random people would hug you. Even people that weren’t even going to the GALA conference, they’re just, you know, on the—the bus with you, trying to get somewhere downtown, want to hug you. And it was—it was—it was wild. I’m a hugger. Um, I—I’m not opposed to human touch. But, oh, my goodness [laughs]. It was—it was a lot [sniffs].
Kresky
Mmhmm.
Schneider
…to you before the shooting. And, um, what, if anything, it represents for you now.
Kresky
Um, before the shooting, it was a place where the kids go. And I—I’m really not that old. I’m, um, in my mid-thirties. Uh, but the crowd that attended Pulse was, you know, a younger crowd. A trendier crowd. Maybe a thinner crowd [laughs].
Scheider
[laughs].
Kresky
But, you know, they were, um—they—it wasn’t usually—it wasn’t typically a place that I would—I would go to. It wasn’t—it wasn’t my home bar I guess. Um, I knew of it. I drove by it. It looked like a great, you know, fun place. And I got—there were times where I—I intended to go and visit just because it was something different. But I don’t know. I felt like I would be a little out of place.
Afterward, it just became, you know, just a—a living memorial. It just—it sits there and it—it, um—it almost reminds—it almost makes—it’s kind of a mark of this overcoming silly divisions that are even in our own community. In the LGBT community. You know? We create our little cliques. Our little groups. And you realize that, you know, we’re all dealing with the same struggles. And we’re all dressed in the same flesh. And to drive by the building anymore is sh—you know? The first time, it was horrific. You know? I s—I tried to—days—days upon days just avoiding streets to get around it and not having to pass it. But then the first time I passed it, you know, reality sank in that, yep, this is the place. And now, the building itself is almost like a—almost like a mausoleum. It’s—it—it’s hard to look at it. It’s hard to drive by it.
Um, you know, I—we—we had coworkers from our company that—that had passed away in the tragedy. Um, and it just, you know—it really brings it home every time. You know? How much—how much hatred can really impact a community. And how much destruction can happen because of it. You know? It’s—it’s no longer, you know, the place that you might go on a Saturday. It’s now the site of the worst, you know, massacre in modern American history.
SchneiderKresky
Um, social media became kind of an outlet to form your thoughts. You know? And we—you’re able to edit the words that you’re typing. You’re able to process things as you’re putting it out. So it almost becomes a live journal. Um, it was nice to see the support from others. Um, it also gave an opportunity to—to educate people. Pardon me. Um, you know, they immediately, as with any other, um—as with any other public shooting, you start having these discussions about gun control legislation. And you start having discussions about mental health. You i—it—it runs the whole gamut. And social media just came—became kind of a place to—a safe place to have those kinds of discussions. Mm.
Kresky
Um, the long-term consequences. Initially, I was afraid that we would be stuck going back into our little boxes. Um, and maybe being less out. Um, being less true to ourselves. Uh, obviously, it seems like the—the exact opposite has happened. You know? And [laughs] you see this meme, you know, “You just pissed off the gay community. Watch out.” That kind of [laughs]—we get stuff done. Um, and sure enough I—I strongly believe that I—it’s my hope that for our city, we develop a—a tolerance for each other. Um, it’s—it’s a big enough city to get lost in. But it’s small enough to know people. And so, really hoping that this gives us a chance to reach out and get to know people that you normally wouldn’t—you normally wouldn’t associate with. You normally wouldn’t talk with.
Um, on a broader scale, you know, I—I don’t know how realistic it is, but I really do hope that we begin to fund, you know, better mental health treatment. We begin to look at, um, more sane gun legislation. You know? It’s—if 49 isn’t enough, then, you know, what is?
SchneiderKresky
Mm. Let’s see. Um, don’t forget h—how your actions affect others. You know? Uh, whether it’s, you know, considering—considering acting out on such a grand scale, uh, as the shooter did, or if it is, you know, just wanting to lash out at somebody, don’t—don’t forget, you know, how—how your actions affect other people. Step outside of the box. Step outside of the tunnel vision. And that’s—I hope that that’s one of our lasting legacies.
Schneider
Um, is there anything else we didn’t talk about that you’d like to say or share?
Kresky Um, not that I can think of. You know [laughs]? Thank you.
Schneider Okay. Well, thank you so much. We really…
Kresky
I appreciate it.
Schneider
…appreciate you talking with us.
[1] University of Central Florida
[2] Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender
[3] Gay and Lesbian Association of Choruses
Cravero
Alright. Let’s see. This is Geoffrey Cravero, and I’m conducting an oral history with Richard Lamberty of the Orlando Gay Chorus. The interview is being conducted in the conference room of the Center fo—of—Center for [laughs] Humanities and Digital Research at the University of Central Florida in Orlando, Florida, on Tuesday, October 11th, 2016 [clears throat].
Lamberty
Which, by the way, happens to be National Coming Out Day.
Cravero
National Coming Out Day. I saw the s—I saw the sign earlier. Excellent, good timing. So, uh, Mr. Lamberty, thank you for speaking with us today. If you would, let’s start by having you state your name and telling us a little about where you’re from.
Lamberty
Richard Lamberty. L-A-M-B—as in boy—E-R-T-Y. Um, I was born in Chicago, Illinois, and we moved to Orlando when I was five. Um, we stayed here until I was 16, and then we briefly moved to Maryland, where I graduated high school, and then I came back to Orlando and attended Rollins [College], um, and then after Rollins, I actually came to UCF[1] for almost two years, during which time I was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis and they put me on a medication. Um, one of the side effects of that medication was I lost the ability to read, write, and speak, and so I was unable to complete my graduate degree at that time, um—ended[sic] up moving to New Mexico, where my parents had gone, and enrolled in the university out there to, uh, work in their computer science artificial intelligence department, which by the time I got there, was gone, and so there was not a single person left on campus that even knew that I existed, and there was no one to help me with paperwork or any of the transfers of credit or anything. It was start over.
Cravero
[laughs].
Lamberty
[laughs] Um, continued to work on the degree out there, but got hired to work on a NASA[2] project that I did for five years, and then moved to California, where I stayed for another 18 years, before coming back to Orlando in 2005, um, basically, to be closer to family, and so I have lived here in Orlando ever since.
Um, I started dancing—you were ask—gonna ask about the dancing thing—I started dancing when I was 10 years old, and I danced first with the Orlando Cloggers, which was a—a youth, square-dance clogging group that was sponsored by the City of Orlando, and from that I got involved in what’s called “round dancing,” which is kind of a hybrid between square dancing and ballroom dancing—ballroom dances and figures, but it’s cued in the same way that a square dance is called, and then directly involved in ballroom from that, and, uh—but because of the arthritis issues then it was like, This is not gonna be what I do with my life. I have to have something else to do, but as long as I’m able I can dance, and I’ve continued to do so for most of my life, um, and that’s taken me all over the world. In fact, I just got back from two weeks in Europe, where I was teaching for the 22nd year that I’ve been over there teaching at this event in Germany.
Lamberty
Um, you know, life in Orlando—mostly what my life about[sic] here is I’m taking care of my elderly mother. I am her primary caretaker, and, um, and then I do what work is available to me, in addition to that, and, you know, in my field if it can be, so designing software, computer systems and things, or doing people’s websites and such, but, um, mostly my life is about dealing with family, taking care of family.
Cravero
And, uh, what d—what did your family do? It was your—did your mother work? Or…
Lamberty
Uh, my father was an electrical engineer. Um, he had seven children. I’m the fifth of seven, and, uh, so my mother was basically a stay-at-home mom for a lot that, and then didn’t start really working until I was about 16, um, in Maryland, and then…
[phone rings]
Lamberty
Go away.
Cravero
[laughs].
Lamberty
And don’t do that again.
Cravero
[laughs].
Lamberty
I’ll make that stop.
Cravero
[laughs].
Lamberty
I should’ve thought of that first.
Cravero
Oh, that’s alright.
Lamberty
The only person who can make my phone ring now is my mother.
Cravero
[laughs].
Lamberty
[laughs]. Okay, um, my father was an electrical engineer. He did a wide variety of things for Swift[?] Martin Marietta [Corporation]. Well, actually, in Chicago, we moved down here for a job at Martin—which was before it was Lockheed Martin—and then, um, up to Maryland. Hated it. Cold weather. Not a[sic] interesting job for him. Came back to Florida at Harris Corporation, where they got involved with the satellite project, um, and then eventually ended up with TRW [Inc.] Space and Defense and retired from them. Um, I worked with TRW Space and Defense—was my first real job in my industry, and then, um, that—on the same project as my father, which was an extraordinary privilege. My father was brilliant and exceedingly humble, um, but just this brilliant man, and I had the privilege of spending five years working with him, and just, you know, being around that mind every day and seeing how he viewed the world, which was fascinating because growing up I didn’t experience my parents quite that way. Um, I grew up in a household where debate was the normal form of communication [laughs].
Cravero
[laughs].
Lamberty
You know, and I never knew what my parents thought about anything, because if one of ‘em would say something, the other one’d automatically take the opposite position, and so what did, you know—what did either of them actually believe about the world was almost impossible for me to determine, and, um, you know, in that time period, I actually got to learn about my father, and one of the things that I learned was that he wasn’t ashamed of me, because growing up, he never spoke to me, um, and I—I didn’t know why. It turned out he didn’t speak to me because he was partially deaf and he couldn’t hear me. So when my voice really changed then he could hear me, you know? Alone—the two of us, then he could hear me, and I walked into—he worked in a trailer in the desert, and I walked into his office one day for some reason, and on the wall was a framed poster of a dance exhibition that I had done when I was at Rollins, and I went home and I said to my mother, “Did you know that Dad has the poster from Rollins on the wall in—office?” And she said, “Oh, yes. Your father’s very proud of you,” and up until that very moment, what I had assumed was that he was embarrassed about me because I was a dancer and, you know, not like his other sons, and that really—that wasn’t true. So, you know, that was just—it was remarkable, and, you know, in an era where being gay was not okay, you know, having the security clearance and being gay was not okay, um, it was a very hard thing to do, um, and, you know, my parents were very Catholic. Uh, you know, like “know the pope” kind of Catholic. Um, there’s a photograph of my mother with John Paul II—just the two of them. You know, so it was a, you know—that was not okay.
Cravero
[laughs].
Lamberty
And yet, there this poster was. It was an incredible experience.
Um, but no. When I came back to Orlando, I continued to dance, and I had gotten involved with same-sex ballroom dancing. Uh, you know, two men dancing together, two women dancing together—which again, two women dancing together has always been socially acceptable; two men dancing together has not, and so, um—and I had a partner here in Orlando. We trained, we worked hard, we eventually won world titles together, and then he quit, and I didn’t have anything to do, so I had heard the [Orlando Gay] Chorus sing, and I thought, I can try this. I don’t sing, but I can try this, you know? I was in chorus in seventh and eighth grade, but, um, I didn’t get a good grade, and when I asked the teacher why she told me I didn’t have a good voice, and so I quit singing, and I never sang again. I mean I wouldn’t sing “Happy Birthday” to people for 35 years. So I joined the chorus and then, you know, started singing with them, and it was fun. It was—I didn’t have to be good. There were [laughs] zero expectations that I actually be good at anything. Not like work, not like dancing, you know—just show up, sing, gave a good time, and, you know, as it happens, apparently, I’ve gotten to the point where I’m okay as a singer, and, you know, had the—the privilege of being a part of the chorus now for six years, and it’s really—it is—it’s a lot of fun. Wonderful thing.
Cravero
That’s fantastic. Um, so, uh, can you tell us a little more about how you got involved in, uh, ballroom and Latin dancing? Um, what sort of work, uh, did you do as a board member on the—I saw that you did…
Lamberty
Oh.
Cravero
The North American Same-Sex Partner Dance Association [NASSPDA]…
Lamberty
You Googled me.
Cravero
I Googled.
Lamberty
Yes.
Cravero
[laughs].
Lamberty
Okay, my parents were square dancers. They had taken a square dance class here in Orlando, and they had what was called “hoedown,” which was in the parking lot of the, uh, um, uh, Colonial Plaza Mall in where—what now would be the—I guess the Walgreens or the CVS is in that corner—that was parking. They put up a tent one day and they just had the square dance callers with a whole bunch of people, and people were dancing in the parking lot [door closes], and I saw the Orlando Cloggers perform, and that’s what I wanted to do. I wasn’t quite old enough yet. You had to be 10 and I wasn’t 10 yet, and so as soon as I turned 10, then I could start the classes, and it was amazing. It was run by the city. It was $5 per family for the season—not $5 a week, not $5 a person. It was $5 for the entire thing—for three of us to go and take the classes, and I loved it. I thought it was awesome. I loved the dancing, so, you know, I learned to clog, I learned to square dance, and then I learned the round dancing, which was like ballroom, and, um, we moved to Maryland when I was in high school, and I can dance, and I got a job at an independent ballroom dancing studio as a dance teacher at the age of 16. I—and this is 1975—’75 —’76 —and I was making $16 an hour, which is basically still what a—a beginning dance instructor makes—same—same thing—but I was making $16 an hour teaching dance lessons, and I think the minimum wage was $2.85 [laughs]. So it’s like, Woo hoo. I had money. It’s like I’m 16 years old, I’ve got this job that I can—that I love, and I have money. It was amazing and—and I loved the dancing.
Um, when I developed [rheumatoid] arthritis and—you know, what they told me was I’d never walk again. I was 100 percent disabled, and that was while I was here at UCF. You know, the campus was not that big, as it is now, but I couldn’t walk across campus, and the medication had this profound effect on me. I—I couldn’t communicate, um, you know, I couldn’t write coherently, I couldn’t make sense of what I was reading, and I couldn’t—I could not talk intelligently, um, and fortunately, there was a professor here in the Computer Science Department who understood what was going on, and she advised me to, you know, get the medical records brought in and have my record expunged and sealed so that all of that failing grade stuff that showed up, because of that, would not show up on my transcript ever, and without that I would have simply just failed, uh, graduate school, and probably never been able to get back in, um, and then, you know, got enough better that I could move and get back into school and get a job that was, uh—that I loved, um, and tried to dance, you know, as best I could, and it wasn’t always easy physically.
I was—I was allergic to the non-steroidal anti-inflammatories, and so any of them that I would take would cause some kind of a very unpleasant neurological side effect, so it was just better to be in pain. So basically, for 30 years—so I just lived in pain, and didn’t tell anybody. You didn’t talk about it. Um, you know, if it was a bad day, you just tried to dance with your partner not touching actually, you know? It’s like you’re s—and don’t say. Don’t s—never tell anybody why you can’t do anything, you know? Um, yeah, it was really horrible, um, pretending, you know—pretending about a lot of things—pretending about being okay, pretending about not being gay, pretending about, you know, that my brain was working normally when it wasn’t. Basically, life was a whole lot about pretending a lot of things, and very painful—physically, psychologically, emotionally painful experience to live that way all the time.
But, yeah, I got, you know—I danced as much as I could, and slowly, slowly over time. Basically, most dancers peak in their late 20s or early 30. It’s like, Mm, yeah. Not until I was in my late-40s, [laughs] you know, and, um, you know, d—did what teaching I could over the years. I mean, I’ve been traveling to Europe for over 20 years and teaching there, um, uh, various places around the United States, Canada, Japan. Uh, we did—a couple years ago, we did a three week tour in Japan—six different teaching events while we were there. It was just amazing—which in and of itself was fascinating because, you know, there’s a large community of dancers in Japan, and they knew of me and they—they would—when they would come to the United States, there[sic] was[sic] always be at the events that I was at, um, and they brought people over all the time to teach, and I asked—was a big, big international convention that I was teaching at—there was a huge group of Japanese there, and I got invited to the room party with the Japanese—was the only white person at this party, and, um, so I asked, you know—it’s like, you know, “When will I get invited to Japan?” And this—there was this discussion. This rapid discussion in Japanese, and the woman who spoke English best took me into the—the bathroom in the connected hotel rooms and closed the door and said to me, “We cannot invite you.” I was like, “Well, why?” And she goes, “Because whoever invites you would have to accept your shame.” I was like, “Oh.”
So when I got contacted a couple years ago about coming over, there was an American woman living in Japan—I didn’t know her history, but she was an American woman living in Japan with the dancing—and so I wrote to her and said, “I’d love to come, but, you know, you need to know,” and she said to me, you know, “It’s not how it is now.” Things changed. Things changed because finally, the Japanese government had to acknowledge that there were people in Japan dying of AIDS,[3] and so everything changed when they acknowledged that—that these are Japanese people; therefore, they’re Japanese, and the laws changed, and the way that people behaved changed, and now it was just not a problem, and this was like, you know, social change on this huge scale in a couple of years, you know? Things that we have been fighting for in this country for 20 or 30 years and still don’t have—that they could achieve because, as a society, it’s more important that you’re Japanese than it is that you’re gay, you know? So she arranged this trip, we went, we had this amazing time, and it didn’t matter at all, you know? It didn’t matter at all. It matters more here than it does there. Um, you know, I mean I’m—and I still—I love dancing. Although at this point, I’m probably done. I don’t have a partner anymore.
Cravero
[laughs].
Lamberty
And if I can’t dance on a regular basis then I lose the ability to dance, which anybody would. Any skill that you’ve developed, if you don’t use it, you lose it. It’s, you know—especially physical skills, but in my case, it’s not just that. Dancing’s what’s kept me well. Um, if I don’t move, I can’t move, and I’ve tried other things. I’ve, you know, gone to gyms, I’ve done swimming, I’ve done all kinds of things. The only thing that’s been really effective is the dancing that I do, and so basically, you know, 47 years of dancing and I don’t have a partner. If I don’t have a partner, I can’t dance. If I can’t dance, I don’t know how long it is that I can walk. That’s the equation. I mean, you know, we talked—I—walking over here from the parking garage was an ordeal, and that’s been, you know—it’s four—four months that I haven’t danced regularly. Going to Germany and having to dance all day, every day, you know? It’s like the first day was just horrible, and after that it was like, Oh, dancing. My body is happy.
Cravero
[laughs].
Lamberty
“It’s fine.” Yeah, so I get distracted easily. It’s okay [laughs].
Cravero
Oh [laughs].
Lamberty
[laughs] I’m chatty.
Lamberty
Oh, you were—asked about NASSPDA.[4] That was not the first.
Cravero
Mmhmm.
Lamberty
Um, the first organization kind of disappeared. It[?] was the United States same-sex dance, uh, organization that I was one of the founders of. I was also a—a—an honorary founding member of the European same-sex dance organization,[5] and then, at the same time that those two were formed, there was a world organization that was formed that I was on the committee that help form it, write the bylaws, was an officer of, and then there was a dispute about, you know: was that the right way to do this? Did it happen too fast? All that. So that organization shut down. The North American one disappeared, and a couple years later, the, um—or the U.S. one disappeared. Then the—they decided to do—try again, and we created the North American Same-Sex Partner Dance Association—NASSPDA—and I was, again, one of the founders, uh—original co—co-president with a woman, um, Barbara Zoloth, was one—one of my students for many years, and, um, you know, then—actually, I was the first honorary member of the organization when I went off the board. They voted me in, and, uh, you know—so I—I’ve been involved in the history of same-sex dancing in the United States since essentially its beginning.
Um, I ran the first, uh—well, not the first. The first same-sex dance competition was a long time ago in New York—the first one we know of—but it was a one-time thing, and then nothing happened for years and years, but I put one together with, uh, my partner that[sic] I went to the Gay Games in 1998 with—Tom Slater—and a woman—a straight woman that[sic] was helping us—Ava Kaye—and, um, then the three of us decided this was important, and we put together, um, it was—I think it was “March Madness”—might have been the first one. It was either “March Madness” or “April Follies,” and then, the next one, you know—we did series of them that—that I ran with the two of them for many years, starting around 2000—2001—and then, when I moved away, I ran the next year remotely, you know, went back for it, but it was too much. So I turned it over to this organization—a non-profit in the [San Francisco] Bay area that has run it ever since, and so it’s the longest-running same-sex, uh, dance competition in North America, and longer than many of the ones in Europe, um, and, uh, so there’s the—you know, very small community of people involved in that in this country. We don’t have a history of partner dancing in this country in the way they do in Europe and other places in the world, but there are people that are[sic] really love it. It’s this wonderful thing to do. It’s social, it’s engaging, it challenges the mind and the body, um, it’s great exercise in a gentle way, um, and it’s fun. It’s just a tremendous amount of fun.
Um, competing in the same-sex world is so different than the mainstream world. The mainstream world is very cutthroat, and the same-sex world is, you know, the—the—the people who’ve been to mainstream competition that come to one of the same-sex events is like, “What? It’s like, “You s—you act like you like each other. You know, this isn’t like a competition. It’s like a party. It’s a celebration,” and that’s exactly what it feels like. We are celebrating something that we can’t have. I mean there were rules against same-sex couples competing, uh, in regular competitions. Some of that has changed now, but there were rules against it. You weren’t allowed, you know, a—and it’s not just that you, you know, could if you wanted to. Y—you weren’t allowed, and while I wasn’t directly involved in a lot of the politics in the mainstream world to do that, um, I was behind the people who were, you know? I wasn’t—they hated me in the mainstream world of ballroom dancing from day one because I was an out[-of-the-closet] gay man doing ballroom dancing, and there were none. It was like, “Y—you can’t do that.” I got told when I was trying to compete as an amateur, and then as a professional, “Sh—y—you can’t be ‘out.’ You ca—you have to stop talking about this. You can’t bring a boyfriend.” I was like, “Yeah. No, I don’t—I y—I don’t need you to dance. I don’t do this for a living. You can’t make me,” and so—oh, they did not like me [laughs]. I mean I—when I was still trying to be an amateur, there were actually lawsuits filed against me. Try to keep me from dancing—trying to, you know, declare me “not an amateur.” I was—I had a sports lawyer. It was—I mean, I f—finally quit. I was spending about $5,000 a year defending my amateur status with the lawyer. It was like, This is ridiculous. This thing’s already so expensive. I was spending $20-25,000 a year dancing, and on top of that, I’ve got to spend lawyers’ fees? Nobody else has to do this. So I just—I gave up. I let them m—make me go pro, and then, you know, dance in Europe more than the United States, because in Europe nobody knows who I am. They don’t care. Then you get judged on the dancing.
Uh, you know—you know, this thing that I’m passionate about. I just love doing it. I love teaching, I love dancing, you know? The, um—the next world championships for same-sex dancing is gonna be in Miami in August of 2017 at the, uh—the World Outgames, and I won’t be dancing, you know? I’ve—I’ve danced at every Gay Game since 1998. I’m the only one. The Gay Games in 1998 was the first time they had dancing, and my partner and I took third. We danced in Sydney[, Australia], and then, let’s see—it was, uh, Amsterdam[, Netherlands], Sydney[, Australia], I wanna say Chicago[, Illinois], Cologne[, Germany], Cleveland[, Ohio]. The next one’s Paris[, France] in ’18, and, uh—and then the Outgames. We danced in Montreal[, Canada] for the first one. We didn’t go to the next ones, and then, um—and then it’ll be Miami. I don’t have a partner. I don’t get to dance. It’s like a four-hour drive from where I live, and I won’t be dancing. It’s just so miserable. I don’t have a partner, and it’s something—you can’t do it alone, you know, and it’s really—you know, it’s hard to reflect on—the 47 years is coming to an end, and I don’t have a say in that. It’s just gonna happen.
CraveroLamberty
Oh, was it the one in The Orlando Sentinel?
Cravero
I think it was, yeah.
Lamberty
Yeah.
Cravero
[laughs].
Lamberty
With a picture of me and the dog.
Cravero
That’s right.
Lamberty
Yeah.
Cravero
Then that was the one.
Lamberty
[laughs].
Cravero
Um, oh…
Lamberty
You’ll see.
Cravero
I also saw there that you did, um—you were a technical consultant on the rewrite of a DVIDA[6] American Smooth Bronze Syllabus manual. Could…
Lamberty
Oh, yeah, DVIDA.
Cravero
Could you explain what that is and describe the work you did on that?
Lamberty
Um, DVIDA is, uh, oh, Dance Vision—D—Dance Vision International—DVIDA—of—Dance Vision International is the company. DA—o I don’t remember what it stands for. A friend of mine, um, Diane Jarmolow, that I used to coach and have known forever, um, she got—she contacted me about helping with the manual, which was very nice. It was great. It was really lovely to be asked, but I’m very technical. People know that I have this profound very deep understanding of dancing, which happened while I lived in New Mexico. Um, I couldn’t dance much. It was, you know, a 60-mile drive to the closest dance studio, which I would do. There[?] was a—a woman there that did some dancing that I could do, but we were only allowed to dance after the studio closed at night, ‘cause the owner didn’t want people seeing us because we didn’t fit the profile—she was the teacher there, and he was afraid that we would scare people off, you know? It’s like wrong level, wrong kind of dancing for what the studio was about, and so two weeknights a week, I would drive to El Paso[, Texas], be there at 10 o’clock at night, and dance ‘til midnight, and drive home and have to be at work at seven in the morning.
Cravero
[laughs].
Lamberty
Um, but, um, while I was there, I met this woman who did ballet, and her husband—fiancé was a PhD kinesiologist at New Mexico State University and he wanted a project, but, you know, at the time—this was when they were doing a lot of things with, you know, analyzing on video tape athletic performance, ‘cause they were looking at, you know, runners on treadmills or swimmers in float tanks or cyclists on stationary bicycles, and seeing, you know, how do you optimize the human body in motion—and he didn’t want to do any of that stuff. So what I did was taught his w—his fiancé how to ballroom dance while he analyzed what we were doing, which, basically, no one had ever done before. No one had ever looked at the—the—the actual human body while it was dancing in this way, and n—not just one body, but two—how two bodies worked together, and he did this analysis of it with—with knowing nothing about dancing. So all of the language of dancing that had been used for 80-90 years to teach it had nothing to do with what he wrote about…
Cravero
Right.
Lamberty
Or what he analyzed. So not, “Here’s what somebody has always said about what we’re doing,” but, “This is what the bodies are doing,” and I—so he wrote about that and then I got all that information, and then I had that, so I could write about dancing in—in the dance world, and I wrote papers that would get published about here’s why the feet do what they do, here’s the way that your hold actually works in the frame—you know, not what Patrick Swayze says about it in Dirty Dancing…
Cravero
[laughs].
Lamberty
But what’s actually going on, and that kind of revolutionized the way that dancing was looked at all over the world, and my—my work got spread all over, um, and so because of that I became well-known for this level of technical understanding, and when Diane needed help with the new manuals they were writing, then I got an email. It’s like, “You willing?” It’s like [claps hands] yes.” [laughs].
Cravero
[laughs].
Lamberty
“I’ve been waiting for this.”
Cravero
[laughs].
Lamberty
“Fix the stuff that’s wrong.”
Cravero
[laughs].
Lamberty
And so, yeah. I worked on those manuals, and, in fact, my former partner is now working on the new set. He’s up in, uh, Indiana, and he was actually just down here for three days to talk to me about it, ‘cause he’s actually—he’s now the consultant for the next set of stuff that’s being done, um, but yeah, I got a credit in the—in the—in the book and everything, and it’s like “technical consultant,” and it was all this weird stuff. What’s the difference between “brush to” and “brush toward”? What’s the difference between a “brush” and a “collect”? You know, it’s like how to—what’s the difference between “side and slightly forward” and “forward and slightly side,” and it’s like all this really technical stuff, which I’m well-suited to because I love language, you know, from my own issues with language—couldn’t speak for a long time. I love language. I’m a mathematician. So, you know, my—I had a double major at Rollins—mathematics and English—and the dancing is mathematical. The partner dancing is a—is a mathematical construct actually, and then I had all this understanding of what was going on because of this analysis that had been done by this PhD kinesiologist. It’s like, you know—it’s perfect. Love it.
Cravero
So cool.
Lamberty
Yeah.
Lamberty
Um, no [laughs].
Cravero
[laughs].
Lamberty
It’s—it’s funny. I don’t have a sticky memory for lyrics. Lyrics are so hard for me to learn—that they don’t stick in my brain very well, and, uh, so, you know, people will say, “Oh, we sang this five years ago,” and I’m going, “Really? I was here then. Did we? I don’t remember,” um, but I—I love singing with the chorus. I—I have no interest in doing any of the solo stuff or anything like that. I have zero—I love singing with the chorus, and we do two major concerts a year—the spring and the holiday. Um, I like the spring concerts, but I tend to love the holiday stuff because the music is different, you know? The—the Christmas stuff, the holiday stuff in general—it’s just got this wonderful character, and, uh, learning—learning about music. I mean, I always had to know something about music because of the dancing. I played piano for several years and I—it was the first thing—I didn’t understand at the time, but it hurt. It got to the point where it hurt, and so I quit, and then I was a great believer in I’m young and healthy. Park across campus and walk, and, uh, at Rollins, I was in the math program. The math courses were on the fourth floor of the [Archibald Granville] Bush Science Center. I always took the stairs. I got to the point where I couldn’t climb the stairs. So I didn’t know what was going on, um, but, you know, how did I get involved with the chorus? My partner quit, and I thought, Well, I won’t be dancing. I need something to do that’s interesting, that will challenge my mind, that will be fun, that will get me out in the world, ‘cause I don’t have a regular job. I don’t meet people. I don’t, you know, have people at work. I don’t go out to lunch. I don’t meet people. So I’ll join the chorus. It’ll be fun, and it has been. It’s really lovely, um, but—and I was afraid to sing, ‘cause I hadn’t—I’d been told I didn’t sing well. Well, they didn’t care, you know?
Now, it’s a little different. The—the chorus actually is[sic] improved dramatically from then. Well, you know, the work of Jim Brown—here at UCF—was our director at the time that I joined, and he did great work with the chorus, and now we have a new director, who’s very, very choral. Very, you know—the sound is gonna be the sound kind of thing, and, uh, I don’t know that I could get in now. You know, if I had—if I tried to join now, I doubt that they would take me. Now, I’m okay. I mean I’ve learned, but, you know, between the two of them, I learned a lot. Understanding a music that’s fundamentally different. I love that. I love learning, and then being with the group and doing.
So, you know, particular thing that we sing that I like the best? No, no. I mean, every concert there’s something that I end up really loving, which is usually a surprise. It’s not the thing that I think at first that I’m gonna like, and, you know, something that’s not my favorite, you know—sing it anyway, um, and most of the stuff is like, Oh, this is fun or not, you know? Some things are more fun to sing. Some things—just the sound of them. We did, um, in the last concert before we went to Denver for GALA[7]—one of the things we sang was a song for—“A Prayer for Children,” and it’s an old s—piece. It was written, um, I think about Croatia during the [Croatian] War [of Independence] there, and it’s gorgeous. It’s hard, but it’s so beautiful. Um, when I first joined it was like I had to be surrounded by other people singing my part, and so it was—you know, it’s like, Mm. I can’t stand next to somebody who’s doing anything different than me. I don’t sing that well, and now, normally, where I get placed is standing next to the altos. I sing bass—I sing low bass. So it’s like bass, baritone—we usually sing the same thing, but not always—and then the altos, and so I’m standing next to an alto and the—in the front, and I can hear the rest of the chorus, and it’s so beautiful sometimes. I mean, there’s pieces that we do—the fun stuff I love. It’s great and fun to sing, but the s—I love the things that the sound of them is—it’s amazing to experience, and that’s what I’ve always looked for in the dance music, you know—the sound of the music that I choose for my own choreography is what I’m interested in, but, you know, chorus is great.
It’s—it’s always been interesting to belong, you know? There’s—like any other human endeavor and organization, there’s groups that form and factions, and the politics of it and all that. It’s normal. I’m used to that, but at the heart of it, there’s this thing that we’re doing something that matters as a group. Um, when the chorus was formed 26 years ago, you know, the—the small group of people that did that, they were risking, you know, employment. You know, to be associated with a gay group publicly like that, many of them could have been fired for it. Um, it was a brave thing to do then, um, and y—you know, it’s not like that n—now. We belong. It’s okay in Orlando.
But, you know, this summer’s been kind of insane. We had had our concert, and the—the weekend of the shooting at Pulse there were several things going on. Um, every year right around that time there is the Orange Blossom [Dance] Festival, which is a big country western dance competition, and I always try to go. Um, well, at least one night, go by, dance and visit with people, ‘cause I know a lot of people, and if like—convention friends—you see them once a year, and—‘cause I don’t go to the other stuff, and I’m not a country western dancer, but some of these people do other things. Some of them are involved in the same-sex ballroom, um, and it’s often my birthday, ‘cause my birthday’s June 11th, and so, normally what would happen is I would go on the Saturday. It’s the better night. If you go Friday, people don’t stay up that late ‘cause a lot of them have to get up in the morning and compete—dance with their students or dance in some way, and Saturday’s better. A lot of the competition is over. The stuff on Sunday is different, and so, you know, go there, dance all evening. Around midnight or so, get a group of people and we’ll go out. Go someplace where there is music, um, and—music that you can dance to—partner dance to, and that has, in fact, been Pulse in the past, eh, when it matched up. Latin Night—if it was going on—e could go there and dance. That’d be great.Um, this year, I went on Friday because Saturday night we had one of our, uh, non-outreach—there’s another word—I—I forget this word every time I go to do it, uh—cabaret. We have three cabaret performances a year. One of them’s at the Parliament House. It’s called “Uncut.” It’s the raunchy one, and then we have the—the, um—the h—February Valentine’s Day one. That’s the love one, and then, the—we have the summer one, and this year, it was early in the summer. It’s often later, and, um—and it happened to be on that Saturday, and since it was my birthday weekend—I wasn’t singing. I—it was like, I’ll go, and they had these VIP’s tickets with the reception and the dinner and then the thing, and it’s like, I’ll go to that. So I had the ticket and I went. It was wonderful, had great time, and then it was done and nobody wanted to really go out, and I did not want to drive all the way out to this hotel and see what’s going on because it was late. Any other year, I would have been at the hotel with the dancers and we would have been going to Pulse and arriving about 12:30 and staying until they closed or later—make them stay open and play music. So I would have had, you know, 25-30 people from out of town, who just love to dance, be there with me, and I just, you know—when—I’m tired. I think I’ll go home. That was the decision.
So Sunday morning, I wake up. I look at my phone and I—there’s all these text messages. “Are you okay?” “Are you okay?” And I’m thinking, It was one singer. Yes, I know we sing at The Plaza [Live], you know, People know we sing at The Plaza. I’m fine. I’m fine. I’m fine, and then I get into the shower and turn on the radio [laughs]. It was like, Turn off the shower, go back to the phone. It’s like, “Oh, my God. I—I had no idea,” you know—listening to the news. I was like, Wow, you know, nut for being tired, I would have been there. I would[?], uh—bringing people.
So I don’t—I’m not a Facebook person really, but I looked to see, and I saw that there was gonna be a special Mass. The, um—there’s a gay, Catholic group in Orlando, and the priest who runs that, uh, used to sing in the chorus with us, and so I take my mother to Mass every Sunday—very Catholic—in Winter Park—St. Margaret Mary [Catholic Church] —very affluent—and, you know—and after Mass and I was waiting to see would[sic] they say anything, and they—and they did. Um, it wasn’t hugely specific, but it was, you know—they acknowledged what had happened, and the violence. Not that it was a gay attack or anything, but—but at least they acknowledged it at Mass, and we left immediately from there and went to the—to the place, which is a bar, you know? St. Matthew’s [Tavern at the Orlando Beer Garden]. Is—it used to be I wanna say Revolution—on Mills[Avenue]…
Cravero
Right.
Lamberty
Next to the [Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender Community] Center [of Central Florida]. Alright, that’s where they have Mass, and so we went, and, you know, we s—we went to Mass there, and, you know, at some point in the afternoon, there was a message that came out about—we had been invited to sing at, um, Joy MCC,[8] and I was like, “Absolutely, I’ll be there.” It was massive. When[?] you show up and there’s all these cameras, and they have relegated them to this corner in the back, and there’s[sic] way too many people, and there’s some seating reserved in the front for the chorus, and there’s not enough. There’s so many of us that showed up, and I felt terrible. I had to sit, ‘cause I—I couldn’t stand. My hip hurt, my knee hurt. I couldn’t—I couldn’t stand for the whole thing. I had to take a chair away from somebody else, you know, but—and then, it came time to sing. So we lined up in the front and, um, we had “True Colors” and, um, “You’ll Never Walk Alone,” and we sang, and, um, by the time I got home, you know, I looked at Facebook and there was a video that had been posted. It was CBS News, and the CBS newsman thought he was so clever. He had gotten the camera spot that was right in the center aisle, and so when we went to do “True Colors,” of course, that’s where the conductor stood, and right in front of him was the soloist, Caitlyn[sp], and so he had a completely blocked view [laughs] of the soloist. He couldn’t get her face—couldn’t get her face, but there’s the camera and there am I.
Cravero
[laughs].
Lamberty
And out of this like two and a half minute video, about 60 seconds of it is on my face, and this got posted on Facebook, and re-p—tagged, and posted and posted, and by the time I got home, I had messaged from 11 countries, and it was overwhelming. I mean, you know—we didn’t know a lot yet. We didn’t even know really how many people were dead yet. I didn’t know whether or not I knew anybody. I did—nobody well, no close friends, but it’s a small community. You know—you don’t know what to do. You know what there was to do? Sing. As it happens, I don’t have a day job. So when we get asked to go and sing and—I can say, “Yes.” I can show up at one o’clock at UCF across town for something, or drive out to the [Orange County] Convention Center at crack of dawn and not worry about being late to work, or—I could show up. That’s what I could do, and it was fascinating to see.
We had the Sunday night there and then Monday night at Dr. Phillips [Center for the Performing Arts] on the lawn, which was not supposed to be what it was, but turned into this thing, and—and it just started happening, and we had GALA [Choruses Festival] coming. We knew—and that was gonna change. Everything was gonna change. So we got invited to the—to sing at the formal thing at Dr. Phillips on the 28th.[9] I was flying out. I was going early. I have an ex-boyfriend that lives in Denver[, Colorado], and four years ago, I got to visit with him. This year, I was going to do the same. Go early, spend some time with him, meet the husband—you know, of 11 years that I had never met, um—and so I wasn’t—I wasn’t at the first concert at Dr. Phillips inside, um, and I had a few days. I mean, there had been so many things. I think Carol said that between June 20th—the 12th and the 28th, there were 20 outreach things that we did, and I lost count how many I did. You know, some of them were just the ensemble things and s—one or two people, but—but, you know, 20 things that the chorus was involved in, and I had like at least nine that I did in those few days, and I got to Denver, and I had time away from all of it, you know? It was no longer in the news every day, and not what everybody’s talking about. Just time—and, uh, people talk about processing. It was like, Oh, this is what that means. Time to really think—to—to stop and feel, and then GALA would come, and I knew—I knew what it was gonna be like. I mean, GALA’s crazy anyway, and it was gonna be different. We were gonna, you know—kind of like, if you’re gonna be a part of this, you accept an obligation about certain things.
I’m used to—I’m used to being a public figure. Mm—I’m a—I’m well-known in the world of dancing. In the world of same-sex dancing, I’m the grandfather. I’m known. Um, I was well-known in my work in California. I mean, we didn’t talk about it, but I’ve—I’ve done things that people don’t understand, you know? I worked on—when you type on the computer and it offers you the corrected spelling[10] or look ahead,[11] I developed that for the very first system that ever had it—was the—the satellite control system that I did for NASA in the [19]80s. That didn’t become available for a very, very long time. I developed that. The very first clickable interface to purchase—“online shopping” is what we call it now—I developed that. The—the idea that you can get credit by filling out an online form, that was revolutionary. I did that. I designed that. Um, then when you go to an ATM[12] and you put in your money or your check, and it just reads it and tells you—instead of putting that in an envelope and writing on the envelope, and a person has to open it and count it. I did that—not—not for ATMs. Didn’t fit in an ATM when I did it.Cravero
[laughs].
Lamberty
But that technology was something I developed. That’s what I worked on. I’ve done all these things with computers that have transformed the world as we know it, and that are now a part of everybody’s existence in the Western world, and how we just interact all the time, and my name is not on any of it. I have no patents. I’m not famous for any of it, but the people who were there, they all knew, you know? I walked into a room of computer nerds in the Bay area. Everybody knew who I was. I was the guy that had won a congressional award for software. There wasn’t anybody else that had done that and never has been, you know? I was the guy that walked up to Steve Jobs and told him he was wrong.
Cravero
[laughs].
Lamberty
[laughs] He was not happy with me. Um, and I—I know what it’s like to be public, and what the chorus was facing was—we were gonna be the face of Orlando—the face of Pulse at this huge thing. When somebody comes walking up and they have to say something to you, or they have to express how they feel, the obligation is listen. Let them. Let them feel what they feel. Let them share what they have to say. Because at that point, it’s no longer about us. People need the space to be able to express, to—to grieve, to process, and we were gonna be their outlet for doing that.
James [A. Rode] was not exactly the kind of director that was used to talking a lot, especially in a performance. The first time he was involved with a performance of the chorus, we sang. He probably said six words to the audience. Not his thing. We were in the waiting area backstage and he spoke to us. We had this set of songs, carefully chosen—changed from what it was supposed to be. I mean, we had—our—our set for GALA was celebratory when we started. Had to change—the message had to change, and some of the music was not music that people wanted to necessarily be singing, um, but it told a story, and he talked to us. “We have an obligation. Find a connection to that music. Relay the message that we’re bringing. It’s hard,” you know, “There’s suffering, there’s pain, and there’s hope. It’s up to us. Create hope, create love.” Like it was beautiful.
So we all walk onstage and we start to sing, as we [inaudible] the ovation, and, you know, you just have to stand there and take it. I used to teach people, “You just gotta stand there and take it.” I made my staff learn to be acknowledged. It’s not easy holding up. It’s not easy, and what did we do? Well, we have to live in Orlando and sing [sniffles]. [inaudible] cause is[?] [inaudible], and then, James read his statement to the audience. None of us had a clue what it said, and then—I mean—oh, God. The man’s eloquent, you know? He’s a schoolteacher, he’s educated, he knows how to write. It was good. It was devastating. It was like—and then, “Let’s sing.” It was like, Oh, no. You’ve gotta be kidding. It’s like—like—I—but, you know, at that point, it didn’t matter. We could’ve stood there and flapped our arms like birds and nobody would’ve cared, and so—but we tried. I mean, by the second verse—it was “You’ll Never Walk Alone”—by the second verse, we—we could maybe sort of sing, and the walkout into that crowd of people.
I remember being in Washington, D.C., you know, mid-[19]90s in like the second March on Washington [for Lesbian, Gay, and Bi Equal Rights and Liberation]. Being on the subway when I lived in the Bay area—you know, one of gay centrals—it’s like, “No.” You know when you ride on BART,[13] you’re not safe. Doesn’t matter that it’s San Francisco[, California], you know? You—y—y—there’s a way of being circumspect, and I’m—I spent my whole childhood being abused because I was different. I didn’t understand that “different” meant “gay,” but they did. I went[?], you know—I—it was a normal part of my experience to be physically attacked on a regular basis. Thrown into lockers, you know, punched and hit—and that was just normal, and n—there was[sic] no adults who really cared. My mother asked me the other day it was like, “Where—wa—was I affectionate as a mother?” And I said, “Not to me,” And she was shocked—just shocked. It’s like, “I’m the wrong one to ask.” I didn’t let anyone touch me. From—from the day—first day of first grade—new school, you know, didn’t know anybody, new city—and the first thing that happened to me was to be attacked. Yeah, I didn’t let people touch me. Dancing was my way of touch. Other than that, no one touched me, you know? Not hug people, barely would shake hands. Not allowed to touch, and you walk out to this—wanting to hug you. I’m not good at hugging. You have to let people, and I had scheduled my flights that I would actually not stay to the very end. I was so grateful. I couldn’t take it anymore [sniffs].
At GALA, they have “coffee concerts” in the morning. They, um—a longer time slot to do something with. A very small, Canadian group had one of ‘em. It was very crowded. I managed to get a seat. It was marvelous. It was funny. Almost every one of the choruses added something in to acknowledge. you know, It was very—uh, um, I don’t want to seem callous, but it was like, you know, one more—“Thanks,” you know, [laughs] but—and the Canadians change theirs—program too a little bit, but what was fascinating to me was they had this woman in a hijab singing with them [sniffs]. She was fascinating. Soaring soprano voice, phenomenally animated—just, you know, capture everyone’s eye when she was onstage, and they—they sang a song in, um, not Farsi, but, um, Arabic, because of her, and, you know, it’s normal, you know? People are leaving the stage and you line the hallways and everybody comes in. Everybody [inaudible]. So I just waited. I waited. I waited.
We had—we had, uh, you know—people had ribbons that we had made and stickers and the Pulse logos and there was like [inaudible], and I wanted to talk to this woman, and everybody wanted to talk to this woman. She had friends there—all this—and I waited, and finally. Finally, there was a camera crew following her around, and I just waited until she was kind of done and all settled down, and she saw me in the shirt—the shirt, and she looked at me and I looked at her, and I put out my hand and it had one of the Pulse stickers in it, and I said to her, “I want you to have this,” and it was extraordinary. Here’s this woman, who turns out isn’t a woman. She’s—she’s a transsexual in process, who is a convert to Islam, who decided to be Orthodox, found an organization in Canada that would accept her for who she is, you know? Coming to America to a major city after a shooting that’s related to, you know, an Islamic fundamentalist supposedly—not really, but that’s the perception—and as we stood there, we talked—I don’t know—20 minutes. It was amazing, and, you know, the stories that she had to tell. Just m—this is—this is what bravery looks like. I was like, “Let’s get the picture,” you know? I don’t do pictures. I always forget, but I have my picture with her. You know, put it on Facebook. It’s mine.
There were—there’s been a lot of things. Um, one of the outreaches was at, um, [John F.] Kennedy Space Center, and not many people could go. It was like, workday, Tuesday, all day, have to be able to get on base. Not everybody would pass the minimal clearance requirements, um, but I could go, and, um, I was like, Oh, this’ll be interesting, you know? I wonder in anybody will know my project, and that was—it was—and, you know, when I worked with TRW Space and Defense, being gay was not a good thing, um, and when we show up it’s gonna be this auditorium full of people, who— ‘cause they have an organization now. It’s like NASA has an organization for gay people. Different world, and—and, yes, you know—people know the project that I worked on. It’s still a meaningful thing. People actually, you know, there were people who know my father’s name. It was amazing, and that was hard. That was—for me, that was the hardest one to sing there.There’s still—I just—we just went Sunday to the movie theater, ‘cause Tony Romero—I don’t know what his last name is—invited the chorus and a few other people, ‘cause Ellen [DeGeneres] gave him a showing of Finding Dory, which I did not see, and it’s like, Okay, this is lovely. Get to go—it’s changing. We get to reflect differently. We get to look to a future. The obligation to create something meaningful is on those who survive, who are after. It’s like funerals aren’t for the dead. They’re for the living. We’re living. We get to choose what this means. We get to choose what happens. I want—I want there to be a difference. I want the world to wake up and know, and I don’t want it to be because it was a gay club in Orlando, but something has to do it.
You know, you take the populations of Great Britain, and Australia, Denmark, and Sweden, and, you know, several other countries combined—is less than the population of the United States, and we have, you know, up 50 times the murder rate that they do. It’s not just because we’re stupid; it’s because they have gun laws that are meaningful and we don’t. You know, Australia had a mass shooting[14] and they changed their world. It was sane. We’re insane. We’re living in an insane society. I want sanity. I’m tired of it costing lives.
I don’t look forward to my birthday next year, ‘cause it’s gonna be, you know, the weekend of the one-year anniversary. I don’t want there to be a one-year anniversary. There will be. I’ll be there. I wish I didn’t have to. It’s so preventable. We have to be responsible for what happens next. I have to be responsible for what happens next.
CraveroLamberty
You know, [sighs] it was interesting. Um, after this, it’s like you’re driving around town and there’s rainbow lights everywhere, and like, you know, it was August. W—my brother was in town for the weekend or the day with this wife. They live in Melbourne[, Florida], and we were gonna go to brunch up in Longwood. Driving and getting off at the exit in I[nterstate] 4, it was raining, and it’s—and below it is the banner—“Orlando Untied”—with the rainbow flag. I was looking at it, it’s like [inaudible]. I took a picture out of the window of the car, and we got to the restaurant and, you know, had this wonderful brunch, and leaving the restaurant, they have one of those chalkboard things, you know—two-sided, and on the front side g—walking in is all the specials, and on the back side was the “Orlando Strong”—“Orlando United,” but, you know, I don’t—where was I? Longwood somewhere. Casselberry, and there is the CVS [Pharmacy] with the electronic sign out front that cycles through its set of stuff. One of which was “Orland Strong.” I was like—I think it would be beautiful if what would just happen is that we could be the “City of Rainbows.” W—let’s, you know, that—somehow [laughs] the gay community got the rainbow flag. It’s like, Wow, that was smart [laughs].
Cravero
[laughs].
Lamberty
I don’t know if they were actually planning that far in advance, but it was like, Wow, we co-opted the rainbow [laughs].
Cravero
[laughs].
Lamberty
It’s like, That’s awesome. It’s like “The City Beautiful.” It’s like “The City of Rainbows.” Wow, I would—I would love for all of these city buildings and—and banks and everything else just like keep putting up rainbows. They’re beautiful. We can create all the meaning we want from them. They’re beautiful. That would be a wonderful thing to have happen.
I would like that, you know—we have this political season that we’re dealing with. We’re dealing with the rise of fundamentalism. People don’t understand what that means. Fundamentalism is a particular thing in philosophy. It’s—it’s not just an extreme point of view—that’s orthodoxy. It’s not just that “I’m right and you’re wrong.” It is: “I’m right, you’re wrong,” and the existence of other ideas, other beliefs cannot be tolerated, and must be suppressed or eliminated by whatever means necessary. That’s fundamentalism. We’ve seen it in religions—not just Islam. I mean, you know, American Christianity is full of its fundamentalism. “You will believe the way that I say it’s supposed to be or”—and when, you—political fundamentalism—“I’ll get what I want in this bill or this bill will never happen.” There is no such thing as compromise in fundamentalism. Nationalism is a form of fundamentalism. Brexit is fundamentalism. The rise of these nationalistic parties in Europe—that’s fundamentalism. You know, even the idea that the news doesn’t tell us the facts. They tell us how we’re supposed to feel about what happens. No, you don’t get to tell me how to feel, but somehow that’s become part of news. No, but that’s representive[sic] of fundamentalism. It’s, “You don’t get to have your opinion.” There is “the opinion” and that’s it.
As long as that’s true, we’re not gonna see gun control. We’re not gonna see a society where it’s truly safe to be gay. We’ve made huge progress, but that doesn’t change the way that people think, or believe—believe is worse. Belief takes no foundation. There’s—doesn’t have to be proved, and anything that stands in the way of it can be discounted.
We sing, you know—you know, we talk about the—what is our purpose? We’re gonna change hearts and minds from musical excellence. The opportunity that’s been presented to the Orlando Gay Chorus because of this horrific thing is phenomenal. We get an audience that we would never have had, and we get to stand up, and we get to sing, and we get to do it as a gay group, and people get to hear good music, good singing, and it has a message, and we’re gay. I—you know, I talked to the leadership in the chorus and said, “Don’t be afraid. It’s—you’re not—there’s nothing wrong—there’s nothing wrong with capitalizing on this moment.” We’ve said for a long time that we want to stand up and mean something. The opportunity’s been handed to us. The mistake would be to not take it. Say, “Yes.” Do these things. Put the message out there, and do it for the right reasons.
I said to Tony the other day—the business manager—“You know, there are a lot of survivors in a lot of ways. Most of them can’t—can’t stand up and talk to the world. It’s not a part of who they are,” but he can, and I remember eighth grade. There was this thing happening, you know—one of the kids in school—and I went home and I complained to my mother about it, and she said, “Who did you talk to?” I was like, “No one. Not me,” You know, and she’s, “Well, you know? You should.” I was like, “Why?” It’s like, “Well, because you can.” So the next day, I marched myself into the principal’s office and complained on behalf of somebody who couldn’t. Those who can need to. Tony can stand up and talk to the world about his experience, and maybe change the world’s thinking—little bit by little bit by doing that. he should. He’s not opportunistic. He has a message that needs to be heard, and he’s capable of delivering it, and he can do that on behalf of victims everywhere. He should. The chorus has an opportunity. We should. We can. It’s not opportunistic. Yes, does it move our agenda forward—the agenda we’ve had f—long before this happened? Absolutely, but it’s still the right thing to do, and it’s for the right reasons, and that’s what we should do. We should keep saying “yes” to the opportunities that arise, and over time—it’s already happening—that they’re—they’re not about that anymore. We got to sing with the Second Harvest Food Bank [of Central Florida], because I go to their dinners, and I know the organizer there, and she likes me.
Cravero
[laughs].
Lamberty
And after this happened, she said to me, “You sing with the Gay Chorus.” I was like, “Yes, I do.” “I wanna talk to you about it.” I was like, “Not the right one to talk to, but, boy, can I get you in touch with the person who is,” and we got to do this amazing event for an audience who we would otherwise never touch. Changed the perception of a lot of things.
We got to sing the national anthem[15] at the First Responders’ Breakfast. This is not a group of people who are gonna just suddenly say, “Oh, gosh. We need to have the Orlando Gay Chorus come and sing.” We’re gonna sing for the AFL-CIO.[16] It’s like Jimmy Hoffa’s[17] union.[18]
Cravero
[laughs].
Lamberty
We’re gonna sing for them. The gay chorus in Orlando is gonna sing for Jimmy Hoffa’s union.
Cravero
[laughs].
Lamberty
That was not gonna happen before, and now, it is. So, you know, what’s gonna come of this? I hope that. I hope lots of things like that. I hope a dialogue, in music for us, that lets people have a different experience of what “gay” means, and then, maybe the world really can change.
Lamberty
No, you don’t—you don’t want to get me started on Lucy.[19] It’s okay.
Cravero
[laughs].
Lamberty
[laughs] Read the blog.[20]
Cravero
We can always do a second interview.
Lamberty
[laughs].
Cravero
[laughs].
Lamberty
Read—read the blog on Lucy.
Cravero
[laughs].
Lamberty
Did you find my blog?
Cravero
I did.
Lamberty
Yeah.
Cravero
I did.
Lamberty
Yeah.
Cravero
Well, that’s an interview for another time.
Lamberty
Oh, yeah.
Cravero
[laughs].
Lamberty
This—thank you. You know, it’s like—this’ll go into an archive, and—and who knows? Maybe some researcher a hundred years from now will look at it, but probably, other than that, nothing.
Cravero
Aw.
Lamberty
That’s okay.
Cravero
It’s fantastic. Well, this is, uh—this has been Geoffrey Cravero with Richard Lamberty in the conference room of the Center for Digital Humanities and Research at UCF in Orlando, Florida, on Tuesday, October 11th, 2016.
[1] University of Central Florida.
[2] National Aeronautics and Space Administration.
[3] Acquired immune deficiency syndrome.
[4] North American Same-Sex Partner Dance Association.
[5] European Same-Sex Dancing Association (ESSDA).
[6] Dance Vision International Dancers Association.
[7] Gay and Lesbian Association of Choruses.
[8] Joy Metropolitan Community Church.
[9] Of June.
[10] Spell check.
[11] Typeahead.
[12] Automatic teller machine.
[13] Bay Area Rapid Transit.
[14] Port Arthur massacre.
[15] The Star-Spangled Banner.
[16] American Federation of Labor and Congress of Industrial Organizations.
[17] Born James Riddle Hoffa.
[18] Correction: Jimmy Hoffa was the president of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters (IBT).
[19] Lamberty’s now-deceased dog.
[20] http://rexl.org/.
Campbell
It’s September 26th, 2016. My name is Tyler Campbell and I am conducting an oral history with Joel Strack of the Orlando Gay Chorus. The interview’s being conducted in the conference room at the Center for Humanities and Digital Research at the University of Central Florida in Orlando, Florida. Um, can you start by, uh, telling us your name and how you came to be associated with the Orlando Gay Chorus?
Strack
Yeah, my name is Joel Strack, and, um, I actually have the distinct position of being one of the founding members of the [Orlando] Gay Chorus, and even sort of, um, uh, before the Gay Chorus, when it was still in its, uh, idea state, I had a—I had a gay cousin—still have a gay cousin, Nardy, and Nardy sang with the Boston Gay Men’s Chorus, and the Boston Gay Men’s Chorus was going to a GALA Festival. GALA is the Gay and Lesbian Association of Choruses, and they do a—they did at that point a festival about every three years, and so they were doing their GALA Festival in Seattle, and Nardy asked if I wanted to join him so he had somebody to hang out with while they were in Seattle, and I said, “Sure,” um, got set up, um, with tickets and everything, and as I sat there watching these choruses from throughout the U.S. perform, I said, “We’ve got to have this in Orlando. This would be something”—and I started saying that out loud to people, you know? “O—Orlando’s gotta have something like this,” and, um, along the way, someone said, “Oh, you need to talk to David Schuler. David Schuler sings with the River City Gay Chorus—or Mixed Chorus—and, um, he’s moving to Orlando, and he wants, you know—it’s one of his dreams, because he was an executive with the River City Chorus—to be, um—to have a chorus here in Orlando.” So David and I met on the steps outside of one of the concert halls. I remember standing there in my overalls, ‘cause that was fashionable of—at the time, and, um, chatting with David about, you know, how this might work out.
I was sitting on the Board of Directors here in town for what was then, uh, GCS—the Gay Community Services. Now it’s The Center,[1] and so I was sitting on the board at GCS, and I went to the board, um, when I got home and said, “Wo—would the board be willing to set aside a certain amount of money as seed money for this organization—this new organization to get its legs under itself?” And the board, um, did set aside $500, which was a pretty big chunk of money back then, for the group, um—for us to be able to do a seed concert, and David sort of took over the helm, because he’d been part of the GALA choruses already, contacted the South Florida Gay Men’s Chorus and the Gay Men’s Chorus of Tampa, who came in and actually did the f—initial concert at Valencia College, and, um, so we had our—our first, uh, concert, and everybody who came was given the opportunity to sing up if they were interested in getting more information about the potential of starting a gay chorus here in Orlando. We ended up with about 65 people that signed the list. When we had our first gathering and contacted the people, about 30 people showed up, which was a pretty good ratio considering, and, um,—and that’s sort of when it started happening, um, and that’s how I became involved, um…
Campbell
And w—what year was that?
Strack
This would have been 1991 or ’90. ’90 would have been the seed concert and the meeting. Um, and then we actually incorporated, um, on February 14th—on Valentine’s Day in 1991—was the incorporation of the Orlando Gay Chorus, and I remember those first meetings as we were m—moving towards incorporation, w—what’s—what’s your name gonna be? What’s our name gonna be? And we—is it gonna be “Gay” first or is it gonna be “Orlando” first? ‘Cause there was lots of, you know, “The Gay Chorus of New York” and the “Gay Chorus of Boston,” uh, and—and are we gonna use the word “Men’s” in our title or is it just gonna stand alone, “Gay?” And it got pretty, um, um, intense as people were talking about why they thought a different placement of words, what words—are we “The Gay Chorus of Central Florida?” Are we “Greater Orlando?” Are we just “Orlando?” All of those things were part of the discussion, and, um, one of the founding members was Penny [Jo] Chessmen, and so having a woman singing a tenor part with us led a number of us to say, “Well, we can’t disqualify her by choosing ‘Men’ as part of our name,” and, um—and she was pushing—or not pushing. She’s—the suggestion came up that it would be the “Gay and Lesbian Chorus of—of Orlando” or “Central Florida” or whatever. Anyway, that was—that was a—a[sic] interesting lead-in to actually becoming incorporated, and David, uh, became the first president of the chorus. Um, through a sort of a behind-the-scenes search, Charlie Callahan, who was the, um, uh, Composer-in-Residence at Rollins College, was contacted, and he became our first, uh, director, which was a coup for us.
Um, his—he was a classic music person, uh, that was world-renowned for his organ music. He—he would go and travel through Europe playing organ concerts. Um, interestingly enough, because of that and not working with vocals so much, his style of directing [laughs] was a little bit different than what we currently got[sic] and what we had since then. Um, the first, uh, accompanist was Terry Thomas, and he then became our—when Charlie left, I believe he became our second, um, director, and then he also—Terry came back and became our emergency director at one point. Um, uh, one of the directors had decided, “I’m done” or they had to move or whatever reason. We were—we needed, uh, a director on the fly, and Terry came back to us and actually—and so he’s sort of our little angel savior, uh, director, and over the course we’ve probably had 9 to 12 different directors over our 27 year history. Um, a—a broad variety of individuals with m—m—many different skill sets that they brought to the table, and I think it’s one of the things that made the chorus really strong—was that this person, um, uh, Aubrey [Connelly-Candelario]—Aubrey, um, focused on production. He came from a musical theater background. So suddenly we were doing costumes and sets and—and surprise moments, and not just standing and singing. Um, Absalon, uh, Figueroa came to us, and he was an accompanist, but he was sort of a New Age-y, um, uh, guru-type guy from Canada. Uh, he was living here, um, with his—later to be his husband. Uh, they m—moved to Canada because he—his husband couldn’t stay here, or he couldn’t stay here. So they both moved to Canada. Now they live in Hawaii…
Campbell
[laughs].
Strack
Happily married. I love how things change in the world, um—but Absalon brought, uh, a healing, um, and a—an empowerment sort of spirit to the chorus that was needed at that time because we’d had a[sic] unfortunate experience with a director just prior to Absalon. So every—every director sort of brought in their own gift and made the chorus that much better.
Campbell
Um, how was the—the chorus received in the community in the first—in that early period?
Strack
[laughs] Um, initially, we were sort of, uh, th—th—the arts community didn’t want to have anything to do with us. We actually, um, uh—there was an arts magazine that was published quarterly, and we, um, contacted them to get an advertisement put in about our next—our upcoming holiday concert, and, uh, they refused it because it was too controversial. That—it wasn’t the name of the holiday concert. It was that it was a gay chorus, and they just didn’t want us—anything to do with it. Uh, Valencia College, where we did our first seed concert—we went back to them to try to rent out that same auditorium for our concerts and they refused us, because we weren’t a student organization—was their reasoning, or—or, uh, representing the students of Valencia, and so, uh, we’ve had a number of, um, eh, prickly, uh, unwelcoming experiences during those early years.
Now, th—the—the gay community, the G—GLBT community, was, uh—we were—when we went onstage the first—for our first concert in, um, June of ’91—would have been—yeah—June of ’91, we went onto the stage at the [Orlando] Museum of Art in Orlando—Orlando Museum of Art in their theater, and all of us were like, “W—how is this gonna play in Orlando?” You know? Y—we couldn’t have been more loved. It was—it was just a really, really intense—almost like—almost like the audience had been waiting for something that was that uniquely geared to them that was public and accessible, and it was—the—the—the energy in the room w—we’re—we’re singing and the energy is flowing off the stage, and the audience is there sending it all back at us. It was just—it was really cool, and we still get a lot of that feeling today, but that first one, because we didn’t know—you know, there were people onstage that thought that, you know, somebody’s gonna, uh, do a false alarm or a bomb threat or—and, you know, that, uh—to make sure that this concert didn’t happen, and there—so there was a lot of fear, and there were individuals in the chorus that would not put their names into the program. Even though they were standing there publicly, to have it written down somewhere that somebody could pass onto a boss or onto a principal of a school, eh, or, you know—they just didn’t have their names printed or they used aliases.
Campbell
Mmhmm.
Strack
So those were the early years. Um, it was, uh—we all sang, uh, men’s voice parts even though there were always females in the chorus. From Penny on, we never did a concert without a female or several females onstage with us, but we sang, um, tenor one, tenor two, baritone and bass, and so, most of the women that joined us would sing senor one. Sometimes they’d sing it up an octave. Ironically, um, in our last concert—no, not the last one—the one before, um—one of our bass twos—the low bass parts—was a female—Linda—Linda Knutson. Yeah, I was a section leader at the time and sitting next to her during, uh, rehearsal, and, um, I—I took a bass two part because they—we were just shorthanded, and so I said—and I’m sitting next to Linda and I’m like, [laughs] “You hit those notes way better than I do. Have you ever considered joining the bass two section?” She’s like—she’s like, “Well—well, okay.” So she became our—our low bass—one of our low basses.
Campbell
Um, how have you, uh, kind of—if you can kind of describe the—the—the change—maybe the reception of the community over the course—from when you first started to maybe this year. Um, has that relationship with the community changed and kind of in what ways?
Strack
Yeah, um, definitely changed, and part of it was that, um, as the gay and lesbian community in Orlando came out, um, the arts community started recognizing us not as a key element or a gem within, but part of a tapestry of art organizations here in Florida. Um, the audiences—interestingly enough, our audiences are—uh, when they do the demographics studies, um, our largest segment of audience members are straight women over the age of 60, and in—again, I think it’s due to the outreach and then the changing nature of how people perceive the gay and lesbian community.
Um, we’ve gone through—depending on who the director is— we’ve gone through different phases of being a little more campy or a little more serious, um, and I—I think that that adds to the totality of what people perceive us to be, and that’s not just, you know—we—we will do the number of “Men in Tights” with—with the sugar plum fairies being the big ol’ bears coming across the stage, dancing th—in their tutus, but it’s one piece within the whole concert. So we’ll—we’ll be self-defacing and joke and be campy, but it’s not all we have to offer, and—and I think the—the community’s responded.
Strack
Probably the biggest change we had during that time was going from being a men’s vocal, uh, group to a mixed vocal group, which we are now. It’s, um, soprano, alto, tenor, bass, and, um, because we kept promoting females joining the chorus, um, one of our presidents, Rob Noll—it became his mission to have more women in the chorus, and so he did a lot of artreach[sic]—outreach and effort to try to get more women, but at certain point[sic], I mean, how can you have women that normally sing soprano having to sing tenor? You know, it’s—it’s hard. It’s not enjoyable for them, and so, w—the—the chorus leadership after Rob, very—uh, I—I won’t say strategically, but very carefully—we started having more and more music where the women starting singing soprano and alto, and, you know, it was two pieces in this concert and there was[sic] four pieces in the next concert, and then pretty soon, it was all the pieces in the concert, and it was never like any—nobody put a stake in the ground and said, “We’re becoming an SATB chorus”—and that’s soprano, alto, tenor, bass. It just—the leadership knew that’s where they wanted to end up and they slowly brought this massive group of unique individuals into that reality, and by the time it happened, anybody[?] who[?] went, “All the music’s SATB?” You know, it’s like, “Yeah, it is.” [laughs] You know, it’s just—it’s sort of a matter of fact now, and p—and there were people that left. There were men that left because that went against their reason for wanting to sing, um, but few—few and far between, and it expanded the number of women that we had, so—because suddenly they were a—a—actually able to sing soprano and alto.
Um, one of the other—eh, back to the question about the community and how the community responded, um, huge, huge, um—the Pulse massacre was probably one of the biggest, um, or—or the most impactful moments for the chorus to take its position within not just the arts community, but the whole…
Campbell
I—I—I kind of want to get into that a little bit more. Um, just you on a personal level, um. How did you—how did you hear about the shooting happen[sic]?
Strack
Mm, um, I am retired, and so I was sleeping in on that Sunday morning, and it was probably 10:30 or so, and, um, I turned off my phone when I went to bed, because my friends have a habit of deciding to send pictures and comments at, you know, 12 at night and one in the morning, and so I had the phone off, and I turned my phone on and there was just a rolodex of—of folks that had sent text messages to me, and, you know— “Are you okay?” “Are you there?” “Is there”—and I—This is really odd. Why in the world—and then, as I started, um—some of ‘em started getting a little more specific. “I just wanted to check to make sure you weren’t, uh, at—at Pulse last night or, um, d—eh, that you weren’t injured.” “I just want to hear from you,” and I went, What? Eh—eh, and then I did, um, my Google search and went, Holy mackerel, and I became part of the web of—“I haven’t heard from you. Is”—my friend Rob, that[sic] I mentioned that was the president, I—I called an, uh, he—nobody answered at his house, and he’s the type of person that might go out to that, uh—Pulse on a whim. Um, me—it’s—it’s not a club I normally would go to. Um, it’s—the crowd is way younger than the people I would be hanging with, but Rob might do that just on a whim, and we couldn’t get a hold of him. He wasn’t answering his cell phone and he wasn’t answering the house phone, but I had his roommate, Sherry[sp]—so I called Sherry’s phone, and she was out walking the dog. I said, “Sherry, I just want to check to make sure Rob’s at home. Is Rob—Rob there?” She goes, “Well, yeah. He was sleeping this morning when I got up.” I’m like, “Okay, just—just wanted to check,” but that was happening everywhere, and to—to spend an hour, hour and a half, two hours checking to see if your friends are alive was really mind blowing. It was so, um—what’s the w—a word that I wanna use for it? It was, eh, eh—it was just unimaginable that—that this could be part of my world now, so—but that’s how I found out—was through people checking in to make sure I was okay, and then I’d reached out to people that might be concerned about me—my parents, family and friends outside of the Orlando area—to make sure they knew I was okay.
Campbell
Hm, um, when was the first time that you got in touch with—that the chorus, uh, decided to maybe have a meeting or anything about th—the actual shooting? Did you guys get together that day, or…
Strack
Um…
Campbell
Any time soon?
Strack
The Sounds of Freedom Band [and Color Guard] by chance was doing their concert, um, i—in Loch Haven Park at the theater there, eh—The REP,[2] and so a number of us got together to go and be with the community, and then the next night, um, we did our first vigil, as I recall. Eh, it was at the Joy Metropolitan Community Church, and the word just spread to the chorus. It wasn’t—there was, you know—“Alright, we’re gonna meet. Here’s what we’re gonna wear,” and we’d done outreaches before, but nothing on this short of a notice. So, uh, we got together and did the—that vigil, and, uh, some of the—some of the tapes went international from that night, and then we’ve probably done an average of three to five a week ever since.
Campbell
And can you just explain a little bit, like, uh, how those experiences were and anything that sticks out to you in particular?
Strack
Um, for me personally, I think, uh, it was so, um, fulfilling and, um, comforting to have a task, so that I couldn’t go into my own head. I, you know—there was this to get done. We were gonna go perform at the, um, uh, [AIGA Orlando’s] Love by Design today. Tomorrow, we’re doing this. Um, th—there were people in the chorus that started carrying their chorus wardrobe in their cars in case an event—an outreach event or a vigil or something—a fundraiser came up during that they that they could jump into their clothes—drive straight to the event and—and have their clothes with them, um, but it—i—it was—I—I—I went through probably, um, three days of just totally numb, sort of zombielike experience. Um, anything could make me cry. I al—I wear my emotions on my sleeve anyway [laughs]. So this just was like, “Oh, good. I’m brushing my teeth and just sobbing,” you know, um, but, uh, those three days went by and I took advantage of The [LGBT] Center [of Central Florida]’s, um, counseling that they were offering—free counseling to people, and so I went in and talked to a—a woman for about 15 minute[sic], and I think—well, I’ll share with you what I shared with her.
Eh, my—my big internal issue was that I’m—by nature, I’m a Pollyanna. I—I like making people happy. I like—I like keeping things i—in a positive space, and it was hard for me—whenever there was even an inkling of—like looking at the chorus and going, This is gonna bring us closer together. This is gonna be such a good emotional, um, outcome for us as a—as a[sic] organization, and then I’d—and then I’d go into my, How can you say there’s something good that comes out of this? And so that’s what I had to talk with her—with the counselor about—is I feel guilty trying to find the silver linings, and, um, she—she did a nice job, and by the time I walked out, I—my head was back on square again and I was able to move on—still numb, but much more myself again. So that was—that was pretty big. Probably, um, continued to have that, um, out-of-body sort of feeling for about three weeks, and then it—then it subsided and I started getting my legs under me, and we—we traveled to the, um—the festival in Denver in, uh, first part of July. So we went to the Gay and Lesbian Association of Choruses big festival, and, um, we as a chorus [laughs]—you know, the 6,000 people—singers—and they’d been sending us videos for the last like week and a half, three weeks.
“W—We Stand with Orlando.” Singing songs that were significant to them, reflecting ‘em on the Pulse ex—um, tragedy, and they would s—you know, “We’re with you, Orlando,” and a lot of it, because it was chorus-to-chorus, was directed right at us—not just the community, but to our singers—and so when we got there to Denver, the outpouring of affection and, um—I made the joke. I said, “At this point we could go onstage and all of us burp in unison [laughs] and the crowd’s gonna go crazy,” [laughs] you know, ‘cause w—we just—we could do no wrong at this point, um, and that wasn’t necessary in the end, uh, but to be there was so healing to so many of us I think, ‘cause it—it was—it was such a, um, uh, clear program that had been put out for us. You know, you can ten—attend this block of s—concerts or this block, and—and this is where we’re gonna get together for this party, and—and every—you—you got to focus on that instead of on doing another vigil.
We did get our wonderful moment onstage, and it was amazing. It was amazing, yeah—and, uh, our director, James [A.] Rode, uh, did a little speech in the mid—in—towards the end of it, um, that described sort of what our experience was as a chorus, and, uh, then wrapped it up with inviting the—the—the theaters weren’t big enough to hold everybody, so there was—you’d have concerts running simultaneously, but we had probably three thousand people in the theater we were in, and James invited ‘em to join us. Um, our final piece was, uh, “You’ll Never Walk Alone” from Man of La Mancha, and so, you know, three thousand other singers—and even they—some of them wrote on—on the webpage for the GALA Choruses their experience, and—and shaking and feeling weak in the knees, and, um, the emotional—that if they hadn’t been there with their brothers and sisters in song, help and hold them up, they would’ve crumbled.
Campbell
Um, how do you feel that the—did you feel that the shooting has changed th—the—the group’s relation to the community in Orlando?
Strack
Tremendously, yeah, um, and I—because of our exposure, I think as any—as much as anything else—I mean, we—we went and sang at the, um, Orlando City Soccer [Club] game and the, um, organizers contacted the, uh, ticketholders and invited them—if you’re sitting in sections 17 through 29, wear green, and so we ended up with this rainbow around the stadium, um, and these are people that probably had never—many of them probably never even knew the Orlando Gay Chorus existed in Orlando, and yet, because of the tragedy, um, they—they stepped up as members of Orlando’s community, supporting, um, the gay community as well.
Um, one of the other things I—I found really exciting during this—is I think the Latin community, um, stepped up in a way, connecting with the gay community that hadn’t been as, um, easygoing or as—as generous, and, um—and likewise. I think the gay community felt for the Latin community—not just those people that got killed, but the—the hurt and the pain wasn’t just ours, and which—to me, I think that’s what’s made—that’s the silv—that’s the big silver lining, you know, that the Orlando—the City of Orlando, um, proved itself to be a community that could face some really wicked tragedy without the response being anger or hatred, um, or scapegoating—that, uh, from the city leaders all the way down to grandma and grandpa in their house, you know, on my street that put out their “Orlando United” sign in front. It was such a wonderful thing to see that this is—this is where I live.
Campbell
Um, and that kind of brings me to my next question. Where do kind of see the relationship between, uh, the Orlando Gay Chorus and the community going moving forward?
Strack
Um, we’re already seeing it, I think, to a degree. We are—we’re getting invited to be a part of events that normally, um—that wouldn’t reach out as far as the Gay Chorus. It would have been these church choirs and that high school choir and th—the community chorus of Orlando—that’d be the group they’d put together for this event, and now, we’re on that list. Now we’re a—a prominent piece of that invitation, um, to a point where I think there’s consciousness of, uh—“And we can’t leave them out,” you know? “They’re—they’re such a significant part of our community,” and because of the exposure we’ve had—excuse me—uh, the exposure we’ve had over the last few months, um, we’ve—people know that we’re pretty good, you know, [laughs]—that, uh, as a musical group, we’re not a flash in the pan, and you—i—if you want to give them money for your ticket, but you don’t go, “You’re not missing anything.” It’s not that way, you know, um, and like to—yesterday, which would have been the 25th of September, we, um, worked with the Second Harvest Food Bank [of Central Florida]. They provided the food, we provided all the entertainment—atmospheric as well as a concert—at the Second Harvest Food Bank to raise funds for these two very disparate non-profit organizations, and I—that never would have happened, I don’t believe. You know, maybe—maybe I’m—maybe I just have my blinders on, but I think that that’s one of the things that, as we move forward, we’re getting those opportunities, um, and bringing our story to the, you know—the general public in a way that we never had a chance to do before.
Campbell
And, uh, what did—did your membership change any a—after you started g—getting more, um, uh—I don’t want to say screen time— but more—more visibility in the community? Did people want to communicate with you all and—and maybe join the chorus? Or have your numbers kind of stayed the same throughout?
Strack
Um, we definitely saw a bump. I know that the interest—again, it’s probably twice the number of people that actually came to audition, um, but we’re over a hundred, and we were down to about 80, um, prior to, um, the Pulse massacre, be—and partly I think it’s because people just didn’t even know we were there, and partly I think it was because, um, some people wanted to step up and say, “I—I need to be a part of this forward motion that’s happening in Orlando,” and so—yeah. It, um—the demographics are about the same as far as age and, um, sexuality. We’ve—we’ve got[sic] a lot of, uh, straight allies that are part of our—our, uh—to[?] women’s section. We got our first male straight guy that’s gonna be—hopefully, he’ll be singing with us if—he just joined the chorus, um, but the general population percentages are about the same as they were before.
Campbell
Um, is there anything else, uh, about the chorus or about, um, the chorus’ response to the—to the shooting that you’d like to talk about today?
Strack
Hm, I think—well, this is gonna—I, uh, was at a point in my history with the chorus after having sung with them in every concert for 26 years, I was ready to quit. Um, I just—you know, I s—there were things going on that I didn’t necessarily all[sic] agree with, um, and I just had decided to myself, you know, sometimes, you just need to move on for your own—and for the organization’s, you know, benefit, but when—and th—there was another person in the chorus I know for a fact was in that same space, um, and after becoming such a valuable entity in the community as a chorus, and doing the vigils and doing the fundraisers, and, um, help—we—we started using that—the, um—“Love, Hope, and Healing”—“the Ambassadors of Love, Hope, and Healing,” and so, as that transpired and I got to watch that in re—in real time, I said, Uh, maybe—maybe I need to stick around, because this—this has really refocused us back to what I feel the chorus was supposed to be about, you know? It was—it’s more than just doing a concert and standing onstage. It’s—it’s building people’s pride. It’s being—yeah—more than a musical group. I was—I’ve said it’s three things. It’s music, it’s socialization, and it’s, um, political. Just the fact that we gave “gay” in the name makes us a political organization, and the socialization within the chorus members is so significant to my happiness, and then, of course, the music. You have to do—have musical excellence to be able to get an audience in the seats, um, and—and it’s really—it’s brought me back to the chorus again ever since, so another silver lining.
Campbell
Well, thank you so much for talking with us today and—and for participating in this program.
Strack
It’s my pleasure.