Fedorka
This is Drew Fedorka. Uh, we are at the [UCF] Public History Center in Sanford, Florida. It is Saturday, November 16th, 2013. Do you just want to introduce yourself for the camera?
Ford
I’m Nancy Ford, and, um—actually, I’m Nancy Harris Ford. My maiden name is Harris. I grew up here in Sanford and left. Was gone about 36 years and came back.
Fedorka
Okay, and when did you leave Sanford?
Ford
I left Sanford in 1973, about a year after I graduated from Seminole High School.
Fedorka
Okay, and what brought you back to Sanford?
Ford
Uh, a combination of things. One is home. And, in 2008, when the economy did what it did, I found myself unemployed, and I needed to make some choices. So I chose to come home, where I had a support system.
Fedorka
Okay, um, now did you have any interest in Sanford’s history before getting involved with Celery Soup and Creative Sanford[, Inc.]?
Ford
Not really, because I am Sanford’s history. [laughs] You know, a lot of the things they do in Creative Sanford[, Inc.] in the shows that they write, I remember. So I’m not just learning them. I am learning new facts about these things, But a lot of these stories, they’re my stories—some of them. And I remember these things.
Fedorka
Right so…
Ford
It’s interesting that what you call “history,” I call “my life.”
Fedorka
Right. Of course. Yeah. Okay. So what got you interested in Creative Sanford?
Ford
Well, when I came back, my sister—my sisters knew that I was interested in acting and performing, because I had done it when I was in Memphis[, Tennessee]. And she saw an advertisement for the show—for Touch and Go—and asked me if I would like to go. And so we went to see it, and I thought it was so interesting, so I said, “Well I think I’ll audition the next time around.” So the next time around, I auditioned and I really enjoyed it, so I’ve auditioned every time since.
Fedorka
Okay, great. Um, so you play a number of different characters in Remade - Not Bought. Do you want to go through some of the different characters?
Ford
[laughs] It was interesting. I played, um, Tasha in the continuity scene—is who’s the mother of one of the young ladies. And that role—the continuity scenes were designed to link the stories together so that they made sense. And, um, I also played Tasha’s mother in one of the scenes, remembering when the, uh, I guess the Woolworth’s counter, one of those restaurants which I actually remember when we used to go to the back window to get the food at the restaurants. We couldn’t go in and sit down. I remember that. So I played that character. And then I played Dr. Starke’s in another scene. And, uh, the Tasha character just kind of weaves through most of the show.
Fedorka
So it’s interesting that you said a lot of these things have been touched on your own personal life that you experienced. What role do you think community theater plays and community understanding on history in remembering history?
Ford
Well, I think that it’s really important, because, if we don’t remember our past, especially the things that aren’t very pleasant, then we’re doomed to repeat it. Now, I have a son who’s 20, and we would get tired of me telling him sometimes that, when he wanted these shoes and these clothes that cost so much money, and I would tell him, “Well, you know, when I was growing up, my mama bought our clothes and hoped they’re fit. And most of the time, bought them too large, because we couldn’t try them on and she couldn’t take them back. Because we were colored.”
So, you know, especially for European Americans, we know a lot of your history, because we were exposed to it on commercials and television and stuff like that. But our history was kind of downplayed. And even among ourselves, we don’t realize sometimes the richness. When I say “ourselves” —the African-American community. Sometimes we don’t understand or really, fully realize the richness of our history. And the importance that certain things play. It was just kinda the way we lived.
Fedorka
Right, and—so some of these scenes are dealing with some of the, um, more troubling or challenging aspects of Sanford’s history. Um, in what ways, um—let me think how to phrase it. And, does it—does it change the memory of these experiences at all in some of these scenes?
Ford
It—it doesn’t change the memory. It changes the meaning. Uh, for example, the butterfly scene. I remember school integration. So when I’m going through that, I remember. And people say that I play that scene and I seem so—it seems so real, because I really was angry about school integration. [clears throat] Although, for me, it was the opposite. It was me going to the “white” school, so to speak, not the other way around, as it was in the butterfly scene. But I didn’t want to be there. I had no choice. I got thrown into an environment that I feel changed my life in a way that was not for the best.
When I was at Crooms [High School], I was a—an honors student. I was in the National Honors Society. I was on track to be Val of Sal. And when I went to Seminole [High School], I did not get the same attention that I got at Crooms. Because the curriculum was so different, and the books were so different, because we got hand me down books at Crooms. Things were so different that I was not academically prepared. And even though I did well, I was in and out of the Honors Society at Seminole. And I didn’t go to college. And I found out later about the, uh, work-studies. And I wasn’t counseled, so I didn’t know. I didn’t know what was available to me, and I didn’t graduate college until I was 50. And I think a lot of that had to do with the fact that I got shoved into an environment where I wasn’t welcomed. I didn’t’ feel welcomed.
Fedorka
It seemed that watching Remade - Not Bought, there’s a very specific choice of scenes. The types of topics that we’re touched on. I think of this really cool scene, I think of the butterfly scene, which is obviously one of the main highlights of the show. Um, the one of the restaurant that you just explained. What was the decision-making process, which scenes to highlight?
Ford
Well, I wasn’t really involved in that, so—I wasn’t involved in choosing which scenes went into the play. You have to talk to the playwrights about that.
Fedorka
Right. Okay. Uh, do you feel like there’s any—obviously, I mean, there’s—some of these scenes are kind of arbitrary in the way that—in the topics that they—in the—obviously the big comment that they’re trying to reconcile is Sanford’s history of racial tensions. And they’ve picked little snapshots to touch on. Do you think there’s any that would have been more effective to include?
Ford
Well, I don’t know about effective, because I think they scenes they included were very effective. Um, there’s so many from which to choose. And I think that the ones that they chose show different aspects of the racial tension, like the pool scene.
I don’t know how to swim. I never learned. Uh, there were two pools in Sanford. The white pool, we weren’t allowed to go to. The black pool was always so crowded when it was open that you couldn’t swim in there if you tried.
And the beach? Well, there were no lifeguards at the beach we were allowed to go. We’d go to New Smyrna Beach. And our parents were afraid to put us in the water because they both, you know, fearful for our safety. And every summer, kids drowned. Every summer. So our parents were very fearful of that.
So those kinds of things, you know, were really meaningful. There’s, um, the only thing—and I have spoken to them about this—it seems that in every one of these plays, I play the angry black woman [laughs]. Um, but we had some good times in the African-American community as well. And sometimes I’d like to see that highlighted. You know, like we had pic—church picnics, and things like that. And because they highlight some things that have nothing to do with racial tension with the white characters.
But almost all the scenes that involve African Americans have some type of racial overtone. Even the Starke scene. Even though it wasn’t, you know, an uncomfortable thing, but even that had racial overtones and, you know, it’s—there were other things that we did [laughs], you know, that had nothing to do with race—that had nothing to do with white people either. But, you know, a lot of the scenes they have with whites have nothing to do with black people.
Fedorka
Right. What—do you see what Creative Sanford does—what Celery Soup does especially—with plays like Remade - Not Bought—do you see what they’re doing as history or is it something different?
Ford
It’s both. It’s history with creative license, because it’s entertainment. And I think it’s a good way to get a conversation going. Because when people go and they see these shows, then invariably, even participating, I learned things, and I go out and do research. Like, Dr. Starke was my doctor. Dr. Starke brought me into the world, you know, when I was born. He was the doctor who brought me here. He was my doctor growing up. But there were things that I didn’t know about him, because, you know, why would I want to go study about Dr. Starke? But now in retrospect, I went out on the Internet and did research, because I do want to know. You know, so there are—and almost everybody that I speak with, after they’ve seen the show, they say “I didn’t know this” or “I didn’t know that.” So yeah, it’s a good way to get a conversation started.
Fedorka
And it’s interesting that you mention Dr. Starke, because he is featured predominantly throughout the play. Um, in what ways do you think he was a good choice to highlight as a central example of some of the message we get across?
Ford
Well, one thing is that he was biracial, you know? And uh, and that’s one way—one of the reasons that he was able to do some of the things that he did, because he was fair. His skin was fair, his hair was wavy. But he was a very quiet man—a soft-spoken man. But, like they say in the play, he was a good man. And I remember going to him, up to my teenage years, you know—until I left here, he was my doctor—[laughs] I don’t ever remember paying him. I imagine my mother paid him. I don’t know whether she paid him or not. But it never occurred to me that he wasn’t getting paid. That’s not something that kids think about.
You know, and I know that I went to him once for something and he said, “Well tell Bernice such and such and such.” that was my mom’s name. So he knew his patients. It’s not like now. You go to the doctor and they review your chart to remember who you are. You know, they make notes in their charts so that they can have conversation with you. But if I walked into his office, he knew me. He knew my name. He knew my mother’s name. He knew my grandparents. It was very different.
And I didn’t realize—well, I didn’t think about the fact that he saw white people too. You know, I don’t ever remember seeing white people in his office. I imagine they were there, but you know, that wasn’t something that I thought about, because if he saw white people it was, because they couldn’t afford to pay the white doctor. And that was not uncommon in the black community, because we didn’t carry around a lot of the baggage it seems that a lot of the white people did.
Fedorka
What are some of the memories you have of Dr. Starke of your childhood?
Ford
Well, I remember one time that, uh—I didn’t like shots. I was actually very afraid of shots and I needed to get a shot. And there was a booster shot in the buttocks, and Dr. Starke had me stand at the window and look out the window, and he was talking to me. I don’t remember what he was talking to me about. I also don’t remember getting the shot. Just—it was just so much like the scene in the play. And when I saw that, I was like, “You know, he really was like that.” That was not an exaggeration.
Fedorka
What role do you think the play has in linking the memory of Sanford and Sanford in the 20th century to people like Dr. Starke?
Ford
Well, I think especially for a lot of the kids, it helps—helps you to know your history. History is important. Even though I didn’t realize it when I was young, because I did not like history in school. Didn’t like it at all. And now, I’m more interested in it, because I can see how—what they call progress. You know, the continuity of events and how it progressed from here to here and the next step. You know, um, Sanford was known as “The Celery City.” Well, I could remember what that smells like. Interestingly enough, because my gather ran a celery crew. So I used to play on the bus—on his bus. and it is a very distinct smell. And I remember what it smells like. And I also remember what it smelled like when those celery fills were rotting, cause, you know, Celery Avenue is named Celery Avenue for a reason. There weren’t houses down there when I was growing up. Those were celery fields. And so people don’t know why that street is named Celery Avenue. And there’s Celery Key and there’s Celery something else, but those are housing developments now. But they used to be celery fields.
Fedorka
And to bring you back to Dr. Starke. Dr. Starke’s office was near Celery Avenue.
Ford
Well, it’s on the corner of 11th Street and Sanford Avenue. So Celery Avenue is what 13th Street kinda turns into after it makes that little cattycorner. So yeah, it’s pretty close. And we used to walk. You used to walk everywhere. Nowadays, we hardly think about walking these days.
Fedorka
Would you say Dr. Starke was well-known in the community?
Ford
[laughs] I’d say that’s an understatement.
Fedorka
Okay. And…
Ford
He was the black doctor. So all the black folks went to him. You know, because we didn’t—the white doctors wouldn’t see us. But that doesn’t mean he wasn’t a good doctor. He was probably one the best doctors in town, but we didn’t realize that, because he was our doctor. He was the only doctor we knew.
Fedorka
And was he known—well-known at the time, at least in Sanford, for his role in sort of crossing—crossing that color barrier by obviously, uh, white patients coming to see him? Was that well-known in the community?
Ford
Well [coughs], they may—[coughs] excuse me. It may have been by adults, but I was a child, so that wasn’t something that I thought about, you know.
Fedorka
Right.
Ford
So, you know, he—I know that he was a prominent figure. Everybody knew him. And Dr. Ringland[1] too. He wasn’t in the play, but Dr. Ringland was the dentist—the dentist—the black dentist. And they shared an office. They shared an office space. Because when you went to the doctor and you went to the dentist, you went to the same building.
Fedorka
Okay to—just a couple of last questions to bring it back to Remade - Not Bought. You said that one of the main role of, um, productions like that is just to get a conversation started. What types of messages do you hope that got across from a production like Remade - Not Bought?
Ford
Well, I would—I would hope that some healing happens. Because there’s a lot of bitterness still, um, in the community among both black and whites. There’s anger. There, uh—we’ve come a long way, but we still have a ways to go. A lot of blacks are bitter and angry, because we feel—when I say “we,” I mean some blacks and whites. I don’t mean all of any group. But many of us, uh, as a people feel that we’ve struggled.
And I know personally in my own life—because my name is Nancy, I got into doors that I wouldn’t have gotten into if my name had been something else. But when I walked through the door, say for an interview, I could see the countenance of the interviewer’s face change, because I was not what they expected. My—my maiden name is Harris. My name is Nancy Harris. I’m well-spoken. I’m articulate. When you speak with me on the phone, you don’t necessarily know that I’m an African American, but when I walk through the door, it’s obvious. And that hurts. And every time that happens, it hurts. So there’s[sic] scars there. There’s[sic] deep scars and they need heeling.
[coughs] By the same token [coughs]—excuse me—I went through affirmative action, where a lot of white people felt left out. And I had—I had work as a result of affirmative action—a pretty good job. I was a machinist. And, in that shop—and I was in Rochester, New York, where they thought things were better—and the white guys, they would yell things at me across the shop. And tell me that I was taking the food out of some guy’s family’s mouth, because I shouldn’t be there, because I’m black and female.
So we have these kinds of conversations. It gives the opportunity to know that we’re all human. All the parts, the same ways. The human way. And that we all have feelings, and they should be honored. And that we all have rich culture and tradition. And I think it’s important for us to learn about each other’s culture more and more, so that we can appreciate our differences and move forward. Because, in order to hold a person down, you have to stay down there with them. And it’s important for us all to rise.
Fedorka
Um, do you think Celery Soup and Remade - Not Bought, um— it[sic] puts a very positive spin on a lot of these memories and do—do you think there’s any—do you think it’s does it effectively with this healing process?
Ford
Um, yes. I think it does. I think anytime we address these things head-on, that it’s effective. It may not always feel good, but it’s like a shot. Doesn’t feel good when you get it, but what it does is work. The benefit feels good.
Fedorka
Okay. Uh, thank you very much for your help. If you—do you have anything you want to say about Celery Soup or the just importance of it, he importance of community theater, the importance of approaching community’s history in this manner?
Ford
Well, I’d just like to say that I’m very happy that this project exists—that Creative Sanford exists. And that Creative Sanford sees the benefit of doing this work. And I hope that people will support it. You know, theatre is not well-supported in general, and in particular, community theatre. We have a lot of good, um—good actors and actresses in community theatre.
One of the things that I love about Celery Soup is that everyone who auditions gets cast. And even though I had experience coming into it, it’s a wonderful opportunity for people who have never been on a stage before to get out there and see if they like it and have an opportunity to—to go someplace, because this is the way that—there are a lot of people that we see on television and on the big screen, who got their start in community theater. It’s important and I do think it should be valued, and people should support it.
Fedorka
Well, thank you very much…
Ford
Thank you.
Fedorka
For all your thoughts.
[1] Correction: Dr. Edward D. Strickland.
Thompson
How did y’all meet? [laughs].
Hardy
We grew up at the end of Tenth Street. Our house was the last house on the street. And it just so happened that my birthday was August 17th, 1956 and yours was…
Black
Mine was August 31st, 1956. And we’re like 14 days apart and our mothers carried us at the same time. And we’re at the dead end of East Tenth Street. so I’m at the corner and he’s at the end. It was just us two kids. There were others in the neighborhood, but…
Hardy
Not as close as we were.
Thompson
So you went all through school together?
Hardy
Pretty much.
Thompson
What school?
Hardy
In elementary school, it was Hopper [Academy]—between Eleventh [Street] and Celery Avenue—and afterwards, it was Lakeview [Middle School] for seventh grade, I think.
Black
Yeah. We were 12 at Lakeview and we went to Sanford Junior High [School] at 13.
Thompson
And where was Sanford Junior then?
Black
That’s Sanford Middle School now. It’s the same one.
Thompson
Oh. It’s on [U.S. Route] 17-92.
Black
Yes. The next year we went to Crooms [High School], which became our ninth grade. Then we went to Seminole [High School].
Thompson
So you were there for the integration of—or you were one year after?
Hardy
No. We were in the midst of it.
Black
We were in fourth grade when that began to happen, so we kind of had a choice for our fifth grade. Our parents could decide if they wanted to send us to the other school, because they didn’t close Hopper or anything like that.
Hardy
It just made an opportunity to go to other schools, if they wanted to, but we stayed. It was right around the corner [laughs].
Black
We lived one block away. It was on the corner of Eleventh and Bay [Avenue] and we lived on Tenth and Bay so—my parents left the choice up to me, because all my life I’ve always gone to integrated schools. I began school in New York state and…
Thompson
Oh, so you left?
Black
I would leave every year. My father was a migrant crew leader, but they lived here. They stayed here. My parents’ work was as a migrant to carry people up north to pick apples—to harvest the fruit.
Thompson
And so you went to school up there every year? So you were just home in summertime?
Black
And I spent all my summers in New York. I began school in New York and I would end it here every school year. From September to November, up to the week before Thanksgiving, I would go to school in New York. Then we’d come down here and I’d finish school. And it used to be June 6th that would be the last day of school, and then as we got older it would be June 11th. The next day, my mom and I would get on a Greyhound bus and go to Rochester[, New York] to visit with my sisters, and my father would come up around July 5th—out to the migrant camp that we lived on.
Román-Toro
Could you elaborate on the differences between going to school up North and coming to school here?
Black
Yes. I sure can. For me, it was more of a freedom. When I’m in New York, I could be myself. I could be all that I thought I could be. I went to school with whites. I started out with whites, so in school, there was no limit to what we were taught we could be—even the black students.
However, down here I had to go to an all-black school, which wasn’t a problem, as far as it being black. I knew I fit in there. However, at a very early age, I learned the difference. It was kind of sad for me, especially by sixth grade, I had a grip on what was going on. I didn’t like when I got to Florida, I had to feel “less than.”
Thompson
When you were in Florida, did you feel like the teachers didn’t tell you you could be all that you could be? Did the teachers treat you different in the North and South?
Black
No, but there is a difference and I saw the difference. The teachers here did all they could, but you still left school thinking that you could go no higher than a teacher. We weren’t taught about, “You could be a doctor one day.” This is what I remember.
Thompson
Billy, how about you?
Hardy
Just like she was saying earlier. we were in that situation and, as far as going to school, that’s what we did. We knew we had to go. we knew we had to have an education, so we went. The thing about Sanford during that time was that we lived over here and they lived over there. In other words, the black part of town was over here, and the white part was over here, and our parents taught us, “You don’t go over there.”
There were many parts of time that—I’ll tell you what, as I came home from service, after 23 years of service, there were parts of town that I had never seen. When I came home, I was right down Melonville [Avenue] and I said, “I’m going over here,” and I did. I rode on through the neighborhoods and I was like…
Román-Toro
How’d you feel about that? How’d you feel about having that opportunity to go wherever you wanted?
Hardy
After being in the service, basically, I was going everywhere I wanted anyway, so when I came home it didn’t matter anymore. [laughs] The door was swung wide open. When I joined the Army, the door was open so wide, it wasn’t black or white anymore. It was green. We were fighting for one purpose and one cause and that was it. Sometimes prejudice situations came up, but it wasn’t a big thing. It was pretty much—it happened. It was controlled. It was dealt with, and that was the end of it. Growing up as a child, I had to stay where my parents told me to stay.
Thompson
Did it make you feel fearful—them telling you that you can’t go there?
Hardy
It bothered me. It really bothered me, because Sundays—you know, Sunday afternoon—after a Sunday meal, everybody’s been to church. We would go out to the schoolhouse and play football. It was all the guys in the neighborhood and we would have a blast. Gosh, we would just play football all day.
What happened was, some of the guys from the other side of town—the white guys—came and saw us playing football at the schoolhouse—and this is kind of what got the ball running as far as the integration part. We played ball. They played ball. We played ball over here, but they played ball over there, so when they came over and a group of them decided, “Let’s go ask. Let’s go talk,” and we began to talk and things began to change. I think there was more to it than that, but that was one of the changes I saw.
Thompson
So you and your peers—black and white—you made the decision to integrate before your parents?
Black
Our parents didn’t decide for us to integrate. It was the white man. It wasn’t our parents. I believe that all of our black parents would rather have kept us where we were. They feared. They wouldn’t have sent us out to white schools, but as time went on, white people had to make a change, so that’s where it came about. We didn’t care that it was integrated. We were fine just where we were. I chose not to go. They gave us a choice. It was a very easy decision for me. I had been looking at white people all my life, and honestly, I was afraid of the white people down here, because here there was always that segregation, but in New York—so I knew there was a difference.
The white people in the South – he probably could name some white kids that we went to school with. I can’t. There were no relationships with any of the white kids that we went to school with. It’s like…
Román-Toro
So you were segregated, even when you weren’t segregated is what you’re saying? When segregation started informally, and then later formally, did you trust it? Did you trust that it was for sincere reasons? or did you suspect that there was an agenda behind it?
Black
Well, I suspected that there was an agenda behind it—that they were being forced to make it happen. They didn’t want us. They didn’t think it was the right time to do this. There was a force behind it.
When I—in fifth grade, in New York state—well, I had heard it while in fourth grade down here—but in fifth grade in New York state, when it was time to move back down here in November, I remember that all the kids thought that I was so smart in school down here. The books that they were learning through, I had already studied and completed in New York.
Thompson
So you were getting second-hand books in Florida?
Black
And in fifth grade, the books were coming from the North. Yes, because when I got here and went to school and for Thanksgiving, the guy next to me, Willie Jones—when he opened his geography book—in the front they have whose name is in it and then they have the school stamp up in the corner. And there it was: “NRW,” which was North Rose-Wolcott [High] School—that I went to. I was just floored, and I went home very upset with my father, because I had asked him, “How do these books get from New York to Florida?” He told me he didn’t know, but in fifth grade I had my own evidence. I saw the book and I just—it was just never a good feeling for me.
That’s where my—I am a big advocate for diversity and I have been ever since then—and with Martin Luther King[, Jr.] and John F. Kennedy—for me, in my life, even with what I was going through, I was going to be what Martin Luther King was talking about—black and white kids holding hands and walking to school together. I was going to show white people that that could be done, because I knew there was a difference between the whites in the South and the whites in the North and you’re all white, you know?
Thompson
I want to go back just for a minute. When you said your parents wouldn’t let you go there, did your parents explain why they didn’t want you going in those neighborhoods?
Hardy
Well, basically they didn’t want us going over there because it was trouble. Some of the experiences—I mean, I got dogs sicced on me. I got to the point where I just got fed up by a lot of stuff and it was—I walked to the store one day, and this guy sicced his dog on me. He had one big one and one little one, and they didn’t bite me, because I guess I was a pretty good size as a kid. I would jump at one, he’d run and the other one would try to get me and I’d jump at him, you know? I tell you what, the hatred that built up in me during that time—I was going to kill the dogs, but they died. I had something on the inside that really bothered me for a long time. and when we left Hopper and went to Lakeview it was like a big melting pot.
Thompson
What year would that have been?
Black
We were 12. That would have been [19]68. We were 12 years old.
Thompson
Because the integration of Crooms didn’t happen ‘til 1970.
Black
We were 14 at the time. Crooms was in ninth grade. Lakeview was built for the seventh grade—for all of us. Everybody was going to have to go to Lakeview.
Hardy
We fought every day. every day. They shut the school down once, because we fought so much. I mean, it was lunch time, and here come the buses, and it was a mess. I could honestly say that the class of ’74, from Lakeview all the way up to high school, we fought.
Just to take it even a step further, I played football. My thing was football. I was big in sports, and it got to the point where I just decided, “What are we fighting for? I’m tired of fighting.” Did you see the movie Remember the Titans? We finally came together Homecoming. It took Homecoming in the 11th grade for us to come together—actually, in the 12th grade. It took Homecoming for us to come together. We were down 7-6, and we got in that huddle, and we looked at each other and decided, “That’s it. We’re going to do this.” That was the first time we joined hands and said, “That’s it. No more.” We were on defense, and I was on defense, because I played both ways. when the game started, I was on the field from then to the time the game was over. Gosh, their quarterback dropped back for a pass and we rushed him hard. And he dropped back and he threw it and one of the quarterbacks—I’ll never forget it, Jimmy Clemens, a white guy, intercepted it. We formed a wall and we wiped out everybody and Jimmy ran in for the touchdown and we won the game.
Thompson
But didn’t you all go to the state [championship] that year?
Hardy
No. We didn’t. We didn’t go to state. I’ll tell you what—it took that to bring us together. We really had a time. We really did.
Thompson
It wasn’t every black or white person, but it was certain ones that they had been…
Hardy
It was certain ones. I’ll give you a good example. I have a good friend named Pat Howard, okay? Pat were[sic] practicing one day, and I was on offense at the time. Pat intercepted the ball, and I hit him pretty hard. We were in the shower and I wasn’t expecting Pat to come up to me. He said, “You tried to kill me out there.” I said, “Coach is wearing us out out there. Nah. I didn’t try to kill you.” I said, “You all right?” He said, “Yeah.” We shook it off. The next day we got ready to line up and the coach blew the whistle. He said, “Hardy? You’re over there on defense next to Howard.” Now we’re on the same side. Now it’s getting good. “Don’t come this way,” I said. “I don’t care who you are—black or white. Don’t come this way.” Pat catches on real quick and he stood back to back with me and said, “Don’t come this way.” Now we’re having fun. Now it’s getting real interesting. We’re great friends right now. As a matter of fact, his mother has a barber shop across the street—a hair salon. Betty Ann?
Thompson
Oh, yeah. I don’t know her, but everybody says what a wonderful person she is
Hardy
That’s his mom, so when we get together we hug, fish, and talk. Needless to say, when the wall was torn down—while we were in the pot fighting—there were some friends made in the pot. The wall came down. Doing sports—the wall came down. We realized fighting wasn’t going to do us any good. “You’re here and I’m here. We’ve got to go to the same school. We’re from the same town. Hey, we might as well get along.”
Thompson
Your thought process is that that brought about the change, because you said, “I’m not fighting.” Then you said that to them, and they said that they didn’t want to fight either. You were really a catalyst for the change in your school.
Hardy
Somebody had to do something.
Thompson
Well, I’m glad to meet you, because that was a wonderful thing that you did.
Hardy
All that fighting and carrying on—it gets to the point where you’re like, “Come on. We just did this yesterday.” There was a big change. When we graduated. Tears flew. “I might never see this guy anymore.” I knew these guys, so when reunion time comes around, that’s great. We go get a ride, Pat gets drunk, and I have to take him home[laughs]. All of a sudden he’s hugging you and wants to tell you how much he loves you. The true feelings come out then. When I see him in his momma’s shop, it’s like, “Hey! You didn’t call me!” They look at us like we’re going to tear the place apart.
It had to come to that. The wall inside of me fell. and it didn’t just fall, it crumbled. After I joined the service, it really crumbled, because now those I thought were my enemies were now my friends. Now we’re fighting for the same cause. I’m training them and they’re training me. I’ve been to the battlefield.
Thompson
Which one?
Hardy
[Operation] Desert Storm. I rescued so many I can’t even count the number. I was a combat medic and I’d pull them out of holes and hills, and rescued them out of the battlefields. It has been a great life and it ain’t over yet. The best is yet to come.
Thompson
So when you got out of the service, what did you do?
Hardy
I opened up an automotive repair shop in Columbus, Georgia. That’s where I live now. That’s where I’ve been ever since. I work on everybody’s car [laughs].
Thompson
Now, when you were in school, did any of the girls fight?
Black
Well, he saw more fights than I did. I think that since I went to school in New York, when I got here, I didn’t have to put up a wall, because I understood already, because I understood what was going on. However, as an African-American, I knew where I stood and how far I could go. Which brings me back to the fifth grade and having to—it was an awful feeling to have to feel “less than.” I spent six months knowing that I was more than that. Then you get to a place where you can’t go here and you can’t go there. I think we grew up desiring not to. Which is why when we got old enough and came home, we wanted to see what all the hoopla was about. We wanted to see why we couldn’t go over there. It was to our great disappointment, because there were houses just like ours. Our house looks better than theirs.
Thompson
Okay, but what about the fighting? Did they do any fighting?
Black
Oh, yes. There was fighting. However, I would be in New York, so he would see more. The fights were always in the beginning of the school year and definitely at the end of the school year. The last day of school [laughs].
Hardy
You can’t get suspended. The only thing you can do is go home.
Black
You’ve been saving up the whole year for the last day of school.
Thompson
Get even time.
Black
I think we even picked fights. It was the last day of school.
Hardy
It was wild, I tell you. I think about some of that. There was one in particular. I had a problem with one teacher. This guy—from the moment I walked in his class until the time class was done—did not like me. I didn’t bother with him, but there was this girl that liked me. She was white and she liked me. My thing was, “I can’t do nothing with you. Ain’t no way.” I wasn’t interested, but because she liked me, he was upset about it. She didn’t try to hide it. She liked me and I kept saying, “Look, I can’t do nothing with you.” And he realized what was going on, and one day, he called me outside the classroom and he said, “You are one dirty, stinking, colored boy.” It hit me and I told Dad about it and he said, “Don’t worry about it.” but I still had to deal with this guy
One day in class there was a hand-cranked electrical generator. You can generate electricity with this hand-cranked electrical generator. Now, my dad was a plumber, but he was also a carpenter, and he knew electricity, and he taught me a lot of things. One of the things that he taught me about electricity was if you got in line with the electricity, if you touched it and I’m touching you, then I’m going to get it, okay? He had this electric generator in class and he was trying to prove a point, and the point was that if you touch this—he had us get into a line and hold hands and guess who was last? Guess who was next to last? The young lady. I knew what was going to happen. He was going to crank the generator. He was saying, “Y’all ready?” Everybody was ready. When he made a motion to crank that generator, I snatched my hand out of hers, and her hair stood up on her head, and she said, “Eeeeeee!” [laughs] When she hollered, he looked straight at me. I was standing there looking at him, because I knew. Needless to say, I got an F. I wound up going to summer school and I passed with a B. Stuff like that happened and I couldn’t do anything about it. I had to deal with it.
Thompson
So what happened to that girl?
Hardy
She followed us right on through high school. She was right there. I can’t remember what her name was, but she graduated.
Thompson
But she learned her lesson that—she didn’t mess with you again did she?
Hardy
We went to high school and I would see her and she would—but that was it. I couldn’t. My dad said, “No,” and that was just it. It was taboo and I just didn’t do it. You have to be obedient to your parents, so I didn’t. And with everything that happened to me, I didn’t want anything to do with that. The only thing that got me interested was when they came to the football field and said, “Hey, y’all want to play?” At first, there was a wall. After playing football the first few times, there were a couple of fights and everybody was like, “Come on.” As time went on, you get tired and you say, “Hey, something’s got to give.”
Thompson So what about the girls? They fought too?
Hardy
Yeah. The girls fought too. You know how girl fights are—tearing clothes off, pulling hair, scratching. [laughs] There was a lot of that too, but when the girls start fighting, a lot of the guys would get in too and they would hold them and keep them from fighting. At the end of school, there weren’t enough people to stop all the fights that broke out though. The only thing you could do was get on the bus and go home. The last bell rang, run to the bus, and go home [laughs].
Thompson
Well, you both have come out with really wonderful attitudes.
Román-Toro
How did you guys feel when the Trayvon Martin case happened? How did you act when you heard about that?
Hardy
I was in Georgia at the time. I was just working in my shop when I found out about it, and I was like, “Man, that thing ain’t going anywhere yet. It’s still there.” I was saying, “Gosh, the only way that this thing is going to leave this city is that some folks just have to die.” How long are we going to be upset with each other? If I get cut, I bleed. If you get cut, you bleed. It’s the same color red. The same thing God did for you, he did it for me. Some folks won’t let it die.
When it happened, I was like, “Wow, here we go again.” Just when you think everything’s good and maybe there’s a chance and we’re doing all right, here we go again. It blew me away. It really hurt, because a lot of people knew me as the guy from Sanford. When I was in school, they used to call me “Sanford.” When Trayvon got killed, everybody was like, “Ain’t you from Sanford? You better look at the news. Something’s going on down there.”
Thompson
Did you talk to any of your friends down here? What did they say?
Hardy
Oh, gosh,. You know, you always get some radical friends, because this happened to Grandma and this happened to Granddaddy. The memory is still there too. People say, “I’m going to get in on it too,” and “I’m going to do something about it.” I’m like, “Hey, man. That ain’t the way.” Then the demonstration—I was so glad that they were peaceful. I didn’t want that for Sanford. I didn’t want all that fighting and carrying on. We fought enough.
I’ve got a lot of sisters down here and a lot of kinfolk, and I’m like, “Hey, man. Be peaceful. Let’s let the law work for a change.” I mean, it’s obvious what happened. If the blind man heard what he said to the 9-1-1 operator, I mean, come on. You[1] were out to get that young boy and he didn’t do anything but go to the store. Now, I don’t know what had been happening in the past. I don’t know how many break-ins they had had in the past. I don’t condone that kind of stuff. I mean, if there’s a thief, let’s catch him. I don’t want him to break-in mine. I don’t want him to break-in yours either. You work hard and you don’t want anybody breaking in and taking your stuff. but Trayvon wasn’t doing that. This guy was so obsessed that he just had it out for him, and what he did was wrong.
Black
And overboard.
Hardy
The 9-1-1 operator telling you, “Wait ‘til the authorities arrive.” And you’re going to take matters into your own hands, and, as far as I’m concerned, you’re guilty. You shot that young boy and he didn’t do anything to you. You messed with him. It could have been your brother, son, or cousin. He came from Miami. I hate that he came to Sanford for this thing to happen to him, but it opened up a lot of eyes in this city—black and white.
Thompson
I was so proud of the City of Sanford. They had a thing from the Sheriff’s Department that said that all through that spring there were no reported fights, no break-ins, no attacks, etc. We stood head-and-shoulders above any community that was having all that outside pressure to do something and we didn’t do it. We stood together.
Hardy
And my sister called me and told me, “You should have been here. You should have seen the city. Everybody got together and marched.” It did my heart good. I hate what happened to Trayvon, but it sure did bring this city together and it got people to thinking. I mean, it was something deep inside of me.
Black
When we’re born, that’s something that’s imbedded inside of us from birth. In New York, we say that white babies are born with a backpack full of privileges, and when the black babies are born, the first thing you get is: “You’re black.” If you come from a black parent, this is one of the first things that you’re going to learn. You are Negro. It’s changed several times since then—colored, African-American, black.
Hardy
You heard it different. See, I heard it as, “If you’re white, you’re born with a silver spoon in your mouth. If you’re black, you get a slap on the butt.” [laughs]
Thompson
Okay. Now I want to hear your feelings about what happened to Trayvon.
Black
I’m not an avid television watcher. I certainly try to stay away from the news. I prefer the peace, because I can always hear God speaking. When the Trayvon Martin situation happened, I was unaware of it, but I was in the process of relocating from New York to Sanford, and when I got here in February, I didn’t need the TV. All of our friends and family were talking about it.
What happened to me when I got here, as far as Trayvon is concerned, was that I came downtown really just trying to feel Sanford again, because we were allowed to come on First Street. We used to go to the Rexall Drugs.; we couldn’t eat at the counter thingy, but we could go and get our medicines. Then there was the five-and-dime or the 10-cent store.[2] So I came downtown and remembered [inaudible] and Manuel[?] Jacobson and, in passing one of those places and seeing that it was open, I went in.
Immediately, Sarah Jacobson—I got pretty upset, because she wanted to know how I felt about it, but she felt that the world is thinking that Sanford is a horrible place now. and since I was from New York, she wanted to know how I felt. I said to her, “Unfortunately, I’ve just come from New York now, but I’ve lived in Sanford all my life, so I can’t agree with you that this is something different. This has just come out, but they have been killing all along.” That’s what I said to her. “This isn’t new. We don’t know how many black people or children someone has killed and they’re out there in the St. Johns River. I do know that, in my lifetime, Trayvon is not the first one. He’s just the one the Lord is using to clean up Sanford.” Cleaning up Sanford from the top. starting with the police department and everything. We got into a heated discussion, because I wouldn’t back down. I’m the African-American. I know what happened, so I’m not going to listen to you tell me based on what your parents—and all of that. I told her, “Sarah, but you’re still white. You don’t get to have a say in stuff like this. Your opinion is not going to matter to us or to the world, because we look at you and we still see white and all the things that conspired in the meantime.”
She was very proud of her mother. Back during that time, when her mother had Manuel[?] Jacobson, she only had white ladies working for her. Somehow, it had come about in the city that they were going to boycott her, because she didn’t have any black employees. Well, one of the ladies that lived in the neighborhood heard about it and she liked Mrs. Jacobson, so when Mrs. Jacobson got to work that morning to open up the store, this lady was waiting outside so she asked her, “Why are you out here? I’m not open yet.” She said, “Well, I came to apply for that job that you’ve got.” She let her in and she said, “Well, you know I can’t hire you.” And she told her what her credentials would have to be before she could hire her and she just kindly told her that they were going to shut her down that day. She said, “I’ve come here to work for you for free as to save your life.” Sarah thought that that was really great, but not on the woman’s part. she thought her mother had done this awesome thing by letting this black lady come in there. I said, “Sarah, they were going to kill your mother.”
Thompson
Kill the business, not kill the mother.
Black
Well, I don’t see it that way. I don’t see that they were just going to get there and it was going to go over peacefully. I see Mrs. Jacobson in all of that. The black woman really put her life out there to save their livelihood. All Sarah had gotten out of that was that her mother had done this awesome thing for a black woman.
Thompson
Well, did the woman keep her job? Did she continue to work for her or did she just work one day for free?
Black
No. It was for a while until all of that had blown over. People saw that she had employed a black person. From that, Sarah just took this great pride that her mother—I said, “Well, she may have been loved enough by the blacks that this woman would come up to her, but she didn’t do anything great. She came and opened her shop like normal.” We just kind of had it out about that, and she wanted to know how I felt about the Trayvon thing. “Is Sanford really a bad place?” I said, “Well, it’s the same. Nothing’s changed.” She disagreed with me, and that’s okay. I never expected her to agree with me, but I was really pissed inside, because that brought back something. I could feel the ball and the chain around my feet while I was talking to her.
What happens to us is that we know what to say to you and how to be diplomatic when we say it. However, if your attitude is the same as Sarah’s, then we have to come together and see the truth. This isn’t the first time this has happened in Sanford. We really have to control our anger. We don’t intend to be anger[sic], but it angers you when you’re talking to someone and they’re not listening. and you know they’re not listening by what they keep saying back to you. I just finally got tired of talking to Sarah and I told her I didn’t want to discuss that anymore. Sanford hasn’t changed. She said, “I could see this is really upsetting you.” She was laughing and there was this guy there watching. “What’s wrong with you, woman? Okay. it’s your money. It’s your money that’s still got you down here and you own half these buildings here, so okay.” She said, “Well, Patricia, if you’re going to open up a shop down here, you should go over across the street and talk to the black lady over there to see how she’s doing.” I said, “Why? Sarah, I don’t need that, because whatever they’re doing to her, I don’t need to hear her troubles and I’m not going to let any of you all do anything to me while I’m here. I’m from the North, Sarah.” She said, “I still think you should go over there.” I left there with a thorn. I still feel it, but it’s better now, because I get to say it to white people [laughs].
She was purposely sticking something to me. She knew she was doing it. She was laughing the whole time. That bothered me and it really discouraged me from even being downtown. I’m opening my shop over on Sanford Avenue across 25th Street. Sarah’s not invited [laughs].
Thompson
Did you have other encounters with blacks or whites in Sanford that you knew when you lived here all those years?
Black
, at this time I’m not going to repeat any of it, because it’s not suitable for the audience. It was negative towards whites. I’m using that word, because I can and it’s true. Sanford as a city has done nothing but grown. It’s the people in Sanford—both black and white. When we speak about different situations, we’re talking about the whites. In our minds—well, they are in charge. Even if we did say “the city of Sanford,” we still mean “whites.” They had lots of opinions, but they were basically what we’ve shared about whites.
Hardy
Our house was next to the bushes, so there wasn’t anything else back there. There was a big ol’ yard. When I went outside—growing up, I can remember having no shirt on—short pants, barefoot. I can remember wearing a shirt, short pants, barefoot. I can remember standing in the road, because my aunt—she used to keep me, and I would always be outside when a story came on called Search for Tomorrow. Do you remember that?
Thompson
Yeah [laughs]. Take a look at this white hair.
Hardy
I remember that. Organ music and everything. And I would go outside, because I didn’t want to be inside the house—no way, no how—because it was on a black-and-white TV. I’d be outside and I’d look over there, because the house across the street was Mr. Jack and Mrs. Blanch’s. They were old folk. No one around was my age except Patricia and—and lived across the alley.
Black
There were other kids, but this is Tenth Street, but when you get to the stop sign, this is where I am. This is the end of Tenth Street—a dead end, actually. It was just he and I as children over here, so we all played together at some point. But at the end of the day, and even at the beginning of the day, it was he and I. Today, we are best friends.
Hardy
We got close.
Black
He can tell you what I looked like. He swears I had ponytails all the time.
Hardy
And it wasn’t hard to figure out who I was either. It was like this most of the time, because this is the only kind of haircut you got. [laughs] Some of the old ladies would plait them. They would take one piece of hair and make this long plait and they’d [inaudible] back and one back here—four big plaits and that was it.
Black
I always had plaits.
Thompson
Now, did she wear little dresses or would she wear shorts?
Hardy
She had a little dress on. Every now and then she’d come out with shorts.
Black
Well, at the age of seven, my mother taught me to sew. At the age of eight, I was doing well enough that, at 10, she bought me my own sewing machine. I would come home from Hopper around third or fourth grade, and all the kids would come out and gather together to go out and play. I would be finishing up my little halter and shorts, and I would go out in an outfit that I just made in 15 minutes. That’s when I would have on shorts. Yeah, but he’s my best friend.
Thompson
Did you ever see him play football?
Black
No. That was during the time we separated in spirit, due to the other part of my story. We separated even though we were still there.
Thompson
Talk about the separation.
Black
We didn’t see each other for about 50 years.
Hardy
We used to walk to school together. Young girls they grow up faster than we do, and they reach a certain point where they lose their mind. It’s just crazy. As young guys we’re like, “What’s the matter with them?” It’s because we don’t have that yet. It was me and you and a whole bunch of girls, and it got to the point where they were way ahead of me. I didn’t have a clue. I realized that something was going on, and at the age that I was, I didn’t want to be a part of it. We used to have to walk to school—talk about no bus. They said, “If you live two miles away, the bus will come.”
Black
We lived two blocks from the two miles.
Hardy
But they told us, “You guys can’t ride the bus,” so we walked. It was a trip. It got to the point where you would see people that lived right around the corner of the school get on the bus. They’d drive from the schoolhouse and drop them off.
We used to walk. And they had gotten to the point where they had begun to walk fast, so me being the only guy, I knew something was different. You start growing up and you start looking in the mirror and you see them and you see yourself and you say, “Nah. I don’t fit. I’m not what they’re looking for.” When they sped up, I slowed down, because I just didn’t—you know, after you’re called “ugly” enough…
Thompson
You were shy.
Hardy
No. I went through school being called ugly, big head, big lips, big feet, and all this stuff. You know, after you hear that enough, you kind of think, “You know, I don’t want to deal with that.” Then I would purposely wait until I would see them turn the corner, and then I would walk on to school. When I got to Sanford Middle School, I already had a license. At 13 years old, I had a driver’s license. I had restriction at 13. I had operator’s at 14. All that walking was done once I got my license.
One of my uncles had a car that was in the bushes and I wanted the car. He laughed me up under the porch. He laughed and laughed. And I stood there until he finally said, “You really want that car, don’t you?” He said, “If you could get it out of the bushes, you can have it.” I went and got my dad’s truck and pulled it out of the bushes. I carried it over to my house, and three days later, I drove it over to his house [laughs].
I had my driver’s license, and I taught my aunt, which was his wife—I taught her how to drive, because he’d try, but he’d freak out and holler at her. I taught her how to drive, so he loved me. I was driving his truck and he bought a Cadillac for her, and she was scared of that car. It was so big. I would drive the Cadillac. Woo, man. The car I pulled out of the bushes. I would drive that. It wasn’t a big deal.
Thompson
Okay. I want to hear a little more about the car. What kind it was and what you did to repair it? That became your life’s calling?
Hardy
I was fixing [inaudible] and lawnmowers since I was eight years old. I didn’t know why. All I knew was that I could do it. When I got the car—which was a ‘64 Oldsmobile Starfire—it was like a tank. It was cast iron. I was teaching her how to drive one day, and she just tore it all up. We didn’t have any insurance. Nothing wrong with the car. [laughs] The other car was all torn up and the owner said, “You could go. [laughs] It was a light blue ’64 Starfire. I got that thing running.
I carried it home, rose up the hood, and started checking stuff out—spark plugs, distributor, wires, battery. and it didn’t take much. I put some gas in it and fired it up. He just gave up on it, basically. I think about that now that I run an automotive repair shop and think, “It just needed a tune-up.” It cut off on him and he went and pushed it into the bushes.
I was driving in junior high school. So when they took off walking, I rode a bicycle for a while, and then I started walking. It wasn’t a big deal. I would see them walking on the other side of the road.
Thompson
And you didn’t even offer them a ride?
Hardy
No [laughs]. I was doing good[sic]. I was satisfied. I drove all the way through high school and everything. I always had something to drive. My dad used to have an old Chevy pickup. I used to drive that. I fixed it up for him. I didn’t realize that God put that gift in me until later—until I accepted him and got saved.
I was reading the Bible—about [King] Solomon. When he was building the [First] Temple, he was trying to figure out, “Who’s going to help me?” Then God told him, “This guy over here knows about bricks, this guy knows about wood, etc.” I got to thinking and realized, “You did that.” [laughs] I thought that I was going to be the mailman after I got out of the army.
I had taken the post office’s[3] exam. scored big time. After I came from taking the test, they told me, “You’ve got three interviews already.” I said, “Shoot. I’m going to be the mailman.” I had had about three tickets in the past. I went to Macon and they said, “Oh, you had these a long time ago. Just clear your racket and you’re good. Take the test and everything.” I go to my first interview, and the guy said, “It looks good, but you have too many tickets.” I said, “What do you mean I have ‘too many tickets?’ I talked to these people at Macon and they told me that my driving record is good.” He said, “Man, I can’t use you. You’ve got too many tickets.” I said, “I know what I’m going to do. I’m going back down to Macon to straighten this out.” I went back down to Macon and got another ticket. [laughs]
Now I’m sitting there in the car, and I’m saying to myself, “Lord, what do you want me to do?” He said, “Go home. Enroll in school.” I went home and went to the schoolhouse and enrolled in school and I started the very next day. That’s what he wanted me to do, and I signed up for automotive technology. They thought that I was the best thing since ice cream. I was just doing what I know, and they were like, “Nobody like you has ever come through here.” I kept saying, “Man, all these mechanics...” They said, “Look, no one like you has ever come through here.” I would get my grades and throw them on the table. When it came time to graduate, the instructor walked up to me and gave me these papers and said, “Fill these out.” I looked at the papers and they said, “National Honors Society.” I said, “You got the wrong person. Wait a minute now. National Honors Society means that I’m going to wear a white gown. You got the wrong person.” The guy said, “No. you haven’t seen your grade point average.” I said, “Well, what is it?” He said, “It’s 4.2.” I said, “4.2? How do you get 4.2?” I built a car, and that’s how I got 4.2.
This young lady and I were in the class, and I guess we were neck-to-neck and it got to the end of the class, and I said, “I’ll know what I’ll do. I’ll just build a car. You know, I’ll just put the engine in, and the transmission and everything.” They said, “You ain’t going to be able to do that.” I looked them and said, “Y’all don’t know.” I built that car and I didn’t realize they were looking at me, because I would go to the end of the hall, where the car was, so I could work on it. But they were looking. Finally, I finished it and I stood there and looked at it. I put the key in and fired it up and it looked like everybody came out of the woodwork and it looked like everybody came out and started clapping and everything. I was like, Wow. [laughs] So I filled out the papers and was part of the National Honors Society.
I was floored. I didn’t think that was me. As they finished with the National Honors Society, they said, “Now we’re going to name the Student of the Year.” And they’re going on about this guy and they’re just talking about how great he is and how good he is and I’m saying to myself, This guy must be—goodness, boy. This guy really did good[sic]. They just kept talking until they said, “The Student of the Year is Billy Hardy.” And I’m sitting there and they’re just clapping and hollering, and I’m sitting there, because it didn’t hit me yet. and somebody said to me, “They just called your name.” I looked around at the instructor and walked up to the podium and said, “Y’all said all that about me?” I was like, Wow. I’ve been doing it ever since he blessed me to open up a shop. I worked at the dealership and a couple of other shops and then he blessed me with my own shop.
Thompson
Were you in contact with him when he was in the service?
Black
No. It really was 50 years. It was 50 years last year since we saw each other. It’s been a year now.
Hardy
When I left, I left. I’d come home and ride in and ride out.
Black
I wouldn’t see him though. We still lived in the same places, but we didn’t contact each other. The separation was my doing. I did it because of what was going on in my home. He and I were so close that I knew what he knew. The separation was me not wanting to ruin him by telling him what was happening to me all those years.
Thompson
Okay. If you want to tell that. We have 14 minutes left.
Black
I’m the one that started to walk ahead. I would look over the corner to see if he had come out. If he hadn’t, I would shoot out so I would be ahead. That was because I decided not to tell him what was going on. He was quiet and I could just tell he wouldn’t have known what to do with that information. This had already been happening to me for six years at that point, and we had played together up until that point, so I had to make a decision. It wasn’t until all these years later that I could tell him why.
Thompson
You can tell that if you’d like to.
Black
I had been being molested every week by a family friend in my home or wherever he would drive me to. At one point, Billy and I were playing and he dared me not to do something to him. and I was always hitting on him and everything, because he’s always been a whole lot bigger than me and he dared me this time. He always let me have my way, but this time he was saying, “Oh, you better not do that.” I knew he was serious, but I also knew I was his girl and he was going to let me get away with it. so I did real quickly and I ran across to my yard and he came running after me. The guy that was molesting me was standing there and I ran into the house and as Billy was running to come up behind me, the man hit him. and when I looked back I realized the man was really fixed on me. Billy got up to come after me again, not knowing why this strong man that he didn’t know would punch him like that, and he punched him again. so I knew I had to leave him alone. I made the decision to walk ahead.
Thompson
Did he hurt him?
Hardy
He hit me pretty good. I was just a little fella. If I find him again—I don’t know. I remember clearly how he did that, and I couldn’t have done anything, because this guy was swinging some hammers. He knocked me down about three times and the only thing I could do was get up and go home, you know?
Black
I couldn’t look anymore. I didn’t know what to do. I didn’t know if to tell him that this is what the guy was doing. For me, I let Billy go. I didn’t want to mess him up or leave him thinking he had to save me or something, so I did that. The girls didn’t do that. I was the one that said, “Here comes Billy. Walk a little faster.” The girls didn’t even know why. It was very painful for both of us.
At the age of six, he and I were playing make-believe, and the aunt that he was talking about saw us and called my mother. And at six years old, I got the beating of my life. It was my molester that went and caught me and brought me back, and my mother beat me with a leather belt. and when she stopped swinging me around, I got introduced to shame. The guy was standing there and he watched me get the beating, and from there, he began to touch me and became my friend. So I thought I was saving Billy at that time.
We would still go to school, but we ignored the feelings we had for each other. We were in love at six years old. We went to the store on one of the lawnmowers that he hadn’t fixed yet. I have no idea where I learned any of that from. But for me, the separation was very difficult. because your friend doesn’t know what is going on and I just couldn’t tell him or anybody else.
Thompson
And for how long did that go on?
Black
For 11 years. I was 17. By the time. But by that time, our lives had gone in different directions.
Thompson
When did you go to the military?
Hardy
In ’76. After football season I said, “It’s time to go.”
Black
I never did try to contact him all these years. I wouldn’t ask his sisters or anybody where he was. I just always prayed to God that one day, I could see him again. and, lo and behold, that was last year. It was always in me, because the day after, he never asked me, “What happened to you?” We never asked each other that. I believe that if he had asked me that, it would have given me a chance to say. But since we didn’t—by the time we’re 12, I’m trying to protect him. I had determined, through all those years, that if my name ever came out of his mouth, I would go.
It was 50 years later, and he was talking to a cousin, and he asked about me and she called me in New York and told me, “Billy was asking about you. He wants your number.” And I asked, “My Billy?” She said, “Yeah.” I said, “Billy boy? My Billy boy?” And I started to cry and asked her, “’Tricia, is it my Billy boy?” And she kept saying, “Yes.” Even she knew what it was. She asked, “Do you want me to give him your number?” I said, “No. give me his.” It had been long enough. I called him immediately, and, probably to his annoyance, I called him every day since then [laughs].
My father owned a school bus, a big truck, and a car. The bus was to carry the people up North and the yard was always full. The backyard was where Daddy kept all his vehicles was actually right in his view.
Hardy
So I knew when they came from up North. When the trucks and the buses were out there, I knew she was back. We were like Forrest Gump and Jenny [laughs].
Thompson
This was just wonderful and I’d love to do it again.
Unidentified
Recording.
Young
Today [clears throat] is April the 1st[, 2014]. I am Mary Hughes Young, and I am interviewing Lawrence Paul Levine.
Levine
Right.
Young
Who served in the U.S. Air Force [sniffs]. Um, This is part of the University of Central Floride—Florida’s Community Veterans History Project, and we’re recording this interview at University of Central Florida in Orlando, Florida. Okay. Larry, tell me first about when and where you were born.
Levine
I was born in Rochester, New York, in 1947.
Young
Okay. And did you live there for all of your educational years?
Levine
Uh, primarily, yes. Yes. I, uh, graduated college in Rochester also, after the—after my service.
Young
Okay. Uh, do you have brothers or sisters?
Levine
Yes. I have two brothers.
Young
Two. So there were three of…
Levine
Yes. There were three of us in the family.
Young
Where were you in the birth order?
Levine
Uh, I’m the oldest.
Young
The oldest? Okay. What did your parents do for a living?
Levine
Well, my father had a number of different jobs. Uh, He was a bread salesman for Thomas’ English Muffins for a while, and then worked for a supermarket chain as one of their managers of one of their stores. Um, my mother was pretty much of a stay-at home mom. Um, She became very si—very sick, um, at a very young age and—and passed away at a very young age also. Uh…
Young
Okay. And how old were you when she passed away?
Levine
I was, uh, 20.
Young
20? Okay.
Levine
21.
Young
Uh, Were any of your family members or extended members in the military?
Levine
Yes. My father—my father was. He was in World War II. He, uh, was an in-flight radio operator in—at that time, was the Army Air Corps, uh, which then became the Air Force. Uh, in-flight radio operator and served over in India, going back from Karachi to Calcutta, India.
Young
Okay. Uh, tell me about your education before you went into the military.
Levine
Well, I, um, graduated high school in 1964. Uh, was accepted to Brown University, um, in Providence, Rhode Island. [clears throat] Finished one year there, and then my mother became very ill, and I had to come back home, which led me into the next phase of my life of being in the—in the military. Um, so that was prior to me going into the service.
Young
Okay. Uh, And why did you decide to go into the military?
Levine
Well, uh, because I came back home and had to help the family out. Uh, during that time, it was the Vietnam War, obviously—back in the—in the [19]60s. Um, in all honestly, I was ultimately drafted.
Now, there was a[sic] interesting—very interesting story that leads up to that. Um, When I came back home, I went to work for the U.S. Customs Service. My background is primarily: I was going to school in business and accounting, and I was fortunate enough to get a job [clears throat] with the U.S. Bureau of Customs [and Border Protection] in Rochester. Uh, went to work for them full-time. Did a number of j—jobs for them, primarily in the accounting area, and also, uh, did a few clearances of planes and—and ships and that system, where I need to, in that particular area. But I worked in the, um, government, uh—in the state office building—actually, it was a Federal building. It wasn’t even a state. It was a Federal building, because it was U.S. Customs.
And, uh, the draft board was right downstairs from my offices. And I became very friendly with a number of the different people who worked in the draft board, and informed them of my situation: that, uh, I was eligible for the draft, because I wasn’t going to school full-time. I was going to school part-time. Uh, they had informed me at that particular time that, “No—no worries. No problems.” That, uh, I would be safe, because I knew everybody there. And low- and behold, before I knew it, my letter from Uncle Sam came and said I was drafted.
Young
Okay.
Levine
So I went back to the [laughs]—to the, uh, draft board and said, “What happened here?” And their excuse was, “Oh, we’re sorry. It got by us,” and everything like that. So, um, in ess—in essence, I was drafted, but before I was drafted, I enlisted in the Air Force.
Young
Okay.
Levine
Okay.
Young
Um, and was this before the lottery was in effect?
Levine
No. The lottery was in effect, if I’m not mistaken. Um, the—there was a lottery, and I had a pretty, pretty low lottery number.
Young
Okay.
Levine
Meaning that I was very eligible for the draft. Uh, I wasn’t going to Canada. I wasn’t going any place, but I was informed again by the draft board that I’d be safe. And, uh, low and behold, I wasn’t.
Young
Okay. Because of the work you were doing?
Levine
No. It’s just that—because I knew people at the draft board, who said if they saw my name come up, they would pull it [laughs].
Young
Oh, okay. Okay. Well, how did you feel about being drafted then? Um, was it—was it…
Levine
Concerned.
Young
A big shock?
Levine
Concerned.
Young
Okay. Okay.
Levine
Shock. Uh, the first thing, obviously, that came to my mind, was: Well, if you’re drafted, then you’re going into the Army. And if you go in the Army, you are going to carry a gun. If you carry a gun, you’re going to go to Vietnam. So, uh, when that—when that happened, obviously, the family was very concerned about it. And, uh…
Young
And so—so…
Levine
They didn’t want me to go. So I figured it would be best if I went into the Air Force.
Young
Right. And so you signed up for the Air Force…
Levine
Yes.
Young
Right after you were drafted?
Levine
Yes. That’s correct.
Young
Okay.
Levine
That’s correct.
Young
And So your family was feeling
Levine
Uh…
Young
Concerned about the situation too?
Levine
They were more concerned, obviously, during that whole period of time, but not as concerned if I allowed myself to be drafted in the Army.
Young
Into the Army. Okay. How about your, uh peers? You friends or girlfriend? How did they feel about you going into the military?
Levine
Uh, my friends were kind of like, Better you than me, at that particular time. Uh, I’m sure most people realized that was not the greatest time in our history for the military. Most people were looked down on in going into the military. Uh, I had some tough experiences myself with that particular situation. Uh, my girlfriend, at the time, was pretty much—said, “If you are going into the military, then I’m not waiting around for you, so,” [laughs] “I’m—I’m gone.”
Young
As if you had a choice, right? [laughs].
Levine
Yeah. As if I had a choice. Right. Right.
Young
Okay. Uh, well, now you’re in the Air Force.
Levine
Mmhmm.
Young
And where did you do your basic training?
Levine
Uh, Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas. I was there in August of 1966.
Young
Okay. And, uh, what were your expectations of— being in the, uh—in basic training? Did you—did you have any idea of what was going—what it was going to be like?
Levine
No. I had an idea, but I didn’t—I didn’t think it would be as bad as it really was. Uh, I was in good shape at the time, okay?
Young
Uh huh.
Levine
Weighed a lot less than I do now. And, um, expected it to be a little different, uh, physically and mentally. Uh, The aspects of basic training are obviously to get you in a situation to where you are able to accept orders, and you’re able to—be able to do things when they’re—when you’re told to do them. And, uh, I accepted that without any problem. It’s just—there’s a little more physical on my body than I had anticipated.
Young
Okay. Can you elaborate a little bit on that?
Levine
Yeah. The marching…
Young
What was a typical day like?
Levine
The typical day is we get up at like five in the morning—4:30-5 o’clock in the morning, and we’d have to make our bunks and get everything straightened away for the day. We go to me—the mess hall, where we had breakfast. And that was one of the things that surprised me, because we just didn’t take our time in—in being able to eat breakfast. We were given a certain amount of time to get in line, eat our breakfast, and get ready to go outside. It was a lot shorter than I had anticipated. So, uh, my eating habits had to change very quickly, because of that.
Young
Hm.
Levine
Uh, after that, we would do either calisthenics or marching. Um, go to the gun range, which kind of surprised me, because I didn’t think I would be shooting a gun. Uh, had qualified in the—in the gun range.
And had different classes on just general military, um—you know, the way of life of a—of a person in the military. Uh, Things—how to handle yourself, how to be able to, uh, you know, again, take orders, and anything that had to do with the military. Military history, all of that.
Young
Okay. And this—how long was your basic training? How many weeks?
Levine
Uh, wow. You see, I—that—I, uh—I want to say eight weeks.
Young
Eight weeks? Okay.
Levine
But it might be a little bit longer than that. I mean, that’s 40—what? 40—safe[sic] —48 years ago. And [laughs]…
Young
Okay.
Levine
[inaudible]. I really didn’t wanna do any…
Young
It’s not for everybody[?].
Levine
Research on that.
Young
You know there’s an end to it.
Levine
Yes.
Young
It’s not gonna be forever.
Levine
That’s absolutely correct.
Young
Okay. Um, what were your instructors like?
Levine
[sniffs] I thought the meanest people in the world, okay? They didn’t take any—they didn’t take anything from anybody.
Young
Uh huh.
Levine
Um, which is what they were supposed to do. You were supposed to be there to listen to them. Them—they were, um, NCOs [non-commissioned officers], which is, uh, the equivalents of sergeants, okay? They were not officers, although the heads—some different, um, sections were—were officers—captains and—and, uh, lieutenants and that. But, um, you know…
Young
[inaudible].
Levine
I realized after a while, that they were doing their job, and that if they were soft on us, and if we became—a situation, which we got involved in, we couldn’t be soft either. So the, um—they did their job, and I think they did it—looking back on it, I think they did a good job on ‘em.
Young
Okay. Uh, let’s back up a minute.
Levine
Sure.
Young
You said you didn’t think you’d have to shoot a gun
Levine
Mmhmm.
Young
But you did.
Levine
Right.
Young
And I think I noticed on your paper that you were, uh, a sharpshooter.
Levine
Yeah. I surprised myself, to be honest with you.
Young
Had you ever shot a gun before?
Levine
No.
Young
Okay. So…
Levine
No.
Young
You adapted to that well.
Levine
I adapted to it. Yeah. Well…
Young
Okay.
Levine
Which again, kind of concerned me. In effect, if I’m a sharpshooter, they might do something with me, other than what I wanted to do [laughs].
Young
Did you receive, uh, any advanced, specialized training?
Levine
Not at that time. No. When we, uh—Just To—to go back a little bit, uh, historically, what led up to this: when I enlisted in the—in the Air Force—and I— don’t mean to take away what you’re—you—the questions you are asking—uh, I had to take a battery of tests…
Young
Mmhmm.
Levine
To determine where I was best fit for the Air Force. Uh, and, at that time, I was—I—I actually scored highest in the administrative area. It was like electronics, administrative, mechanical, uh—those I think—and—and just basic—basic air. So I scored highest in administrative, which I assumed that I would, because that was pretty much my background and what I wanted to do.
However, at the time that I went in, and—there were no openings in the administrative field. So I said, “Well, if you don’t have anything in the administrative area, send me home. I don’t—I don’t need to come then.”
Young
[laughs].
Levine
They said, “No. that doesn’t work that way, okay? Now, you’re going to be in the electronics field.” I said, “Okay. Electronics.” “Yeah. You know, putting wires together and all this kind of stuff. Wherever you’re needed in electronics.” You know, that’s a wide area, obviously. I said, “Okay.” and they gave me another battery of tests, and one of the tests was called the Ishihara [Color] Test—and I’m not sure if you’re fa—familiar with that? That’s the one where they have the numbers that are embedded in the different colors, so that if you’re looking at it, it is to determine if you are colorblind or not.
Young
Oh.
Levine
Well, I really botched that up big time. I think I only got two numbers out of all of them that they showed me. I just couldn’t pick out the different numbers in the blocks of different colors. So they sat back and they said “Well, hm. If you can’t pick out the numbers, how are you going to put a red wire together with a green wire or with a blue wire, and make sure it’s running properly? So you can’t go into electronics.” So I said, “Good. Send me home.” They said, “No. it doesn’t work that way.”
I said, “Well, how about administrative again?” “No. we still don’t have any openings.” “Okay. So now what?” “Well, we’re going to give you your choice of what you want to do, Okay? This is the career that you’re going to have in the Air Force.” One: You can become a cook, okay? Number two: you can become a parachute rigger, okay? Putting together the parachutes for the pilots and [inaudible]. Three: you can be an air policeman, because you did qualify that [inaudible]. Or four: you can be an airframe repair specialist.
So I sat back and I thought, Well, I could kill everybody with my cooking, because I couldn’t cook very well, okay? If I became a parachute rigger, god forbid if a parachute didn’t open when the pilot jumped out of the plane or whatever[?], I’d probably kill somebody that way. Air police? I says[sic], Nah. I’m not big enough to be a good air policeman, you know? I could direct traffic, but that would probably be all that I could do. So that left me with airframe repair, okay? So that’s where we’re back—that’s where—that’s a little bit about the background on my next point after basic training.
Young
Okay. So in basic training, you get your assignments?
Levine
Exactly.
Young
And you were assigned to be an air…
Levine
Airframe Repair.
Young
Airframe Repair? Okay.
Levine
That’s exactly correct.
Young
Okay. So that’s working on the outside of the airplane.
Levine
Uh, It could be the inside too.
Young
Oh, okay. Anything to do with the frame of an airplane?
Levine
Right.
Young
Okay, but, um—so where were you assigned after basic training?
Levine
I was assigned after basic training to advanced training at Amarillo Air Force Base—Texas also. I really didn’t leave Texas for my basic training and my advance training. And this was strictly was airframe repair now.
Young
Okay.
Levine
Okay? This was how—to teach me how to be, uh, an airframe repairman.
Young
Okay.
Levine
I have two left hands, so you can imagine
Young
[laughs].
Levine
What it was like to be in Airframe Repair School [laughs].
Young
Okay. And—so how long where you in
Levine
Uh…
Young
Airframe training?
Levine
Six months, actually.
Young
Six months? Okay.
Levine
Almost six months. It was—yeah.
Young
And What was your impression of this a—assignment?
Levine
I thought it would be just going to school, But unfortunately, it wasn’t. It was an extension of the basic training, only, to be honest with you, worse. First of all, the weather in Amarillo, Texas, was horrible. I was there during the wintertime, and it was cold and freezing, and we were doing calisthenics outside and we were running, and we were marching. And I said, This isn’t supposed to be like this. This is like I’m supposed to learn how to work on airplanes, not [laughs]—not—I said, “This was already done in basic training. Why do I—why do I gotta do that again?” “No, no, no.” And actually, they—they called them “TIs”—technical instructors—were worse in—in Airframe Repair School than they were in basic training. They were harder on us in—in, uh—in school.
Young
Okay.
Levine
So…
Young
How many hours would you actually be in—in training for repairs?
Levine
For repairs? It was about six to eight hours a day.
Young
So a long day?
Levine
Yeah. It was just on the repair. Just on airframe repairs. That wasn’t—again, the calisthenics or the marching and everything else. So it was a full day.
Young
Okay. And did it start early…
Levine
Yes.
Young
Like in basic training?
Levine
Not as early, but pretty close.
Young
Pretty close? Okay.
Levine
[laughs].
Young
What did your duties entail as an airframe worker?
Levine
Well, again, there’s another story that goes along with that, okay?
Young
Tell it.
Levine
Uh,Well, in—in basic airframe repair, you do anything from sheet metal work to fiber glassing to, umm anything that has to do, again, with—with the frame. Ma—uh, making sure that the—that the actual plane itself is in good shape to fly, okay? From a sheet metal standpoint, and not the electronics standpoint. Obviously, that’s in another area.
But, uh—this—this, again, is a—is another story. I had two left hands, as—as I had mentioned. Uh, I couldn’t hit a hammer—nail with a hammer great, and they’re putting me on working on airplanes. Well, each part of the course was a different thing you did with an—with the airframe. Riveting was one area, sheet met—cutting out certain, uh, pieces on the plane was another area.
Uh, one of the areas that they had, they called them “blocks.” each one was a separate block, and what you did was you learned as part—as in the individual blocks was, uh, fiber glassing, okay? And how to fiberglass, how to use fiberglass, and how to be able to mold it on a plane were necessary things like that. I wish you could’ve seen me doing the fiberglass work. You’d—it’d—it’s a real comedy. It was a real comedy, a real joke.
Young
What was the, uh, difficulty in—in doing that? I don’t—I haven’t worked with fiberglass.
Levine
Well, it’s just mixing—mixing the ras—the resin together…
Young
Oh, okay.
Levine
So it’s the right consistency. Being able to lay out the sheets of fiberglass on there, and smooth it over, sand it down. All of these different areas are part of the—are part of the fiberglass work, okay?
Young
Okay.
Levine
So that—that—that’s—that was part of it. That was one of the blocks.
Young
Alright. And there were other things, like riveting classes?
Levine
How to use a rivet gun properly. Um, All different types—all different of things on—on, Again, using sheet metal, and using—and repairing aircraft.
Young
What did you like best about that?
Levine
Nothing [laughs].
Young
Nothing? Okay. So you kind of felt like you were a...
Levine
I was a…
Young
Round peg…
Levine
Yes.
Young
In a square hole?
Levine
Exactly.
Young
[laughs].
Levine
Exactly. I was not in the proper location.
Young
Okay.
Levine
And unfortunately, the Air Force didn’t realize at the time, okay? They put me through it.
Young
Were your instructors, um, understanding? Or…
Levine
Yes.
Young
Patient? Or…
Levine
They pretty—they were pretty understanding, with the exception of the one from the fiberglass area, because, uh, I ultimately did not pass the test to move on to the next phase of the Airframe Repair School. So I actually had to take a complete week all over—or, em, two weeks, I believe, or three weeks. I had to take that all over again.
Young
All the fiberglass work?
Levine
Yes. The fiberglass portion. And the other ones I had passed…
Young
Uh huh.
Levine
But the fiberglass portion, I had a very difficult time with, and, uh, I had to take that part of the program all over again.
Young
Okay. And then you passed it?
Levine
Yes.
Young
Okay. So now are you ready for the next, uh—for your next assignment?
Levine
Well, again, the reason—now, I was part of a group of students. My class, I think, was like 12 or 14 students in my class. Because I had failed the test, they moved on to the next phase, I had to wait until the next class came along to pick up with them, and to begin the fiberglass portion all over again.
Young
Okay.
Levine
Okay. Which I did. Uh, I think I had to wait a week before the next class came to the point that they were going to do the fiberglass…
Young
Oh, okay. I see.
Levine
Block. So I waved goodbye to all of my fellow students. They had gone—they had gone on to the next phase, and started it, and started the next group. Which a second time I did pass, okay? So I finished and graduated tech school, at that point.
Young
Okay. So you only had to wait behind two weeks, and then do you catch up with your class again?
Levine
No.
Young
No?
Levine
No. Then I’m involved with this next…
Young
Your [inaudible]?
Levine
New class. [inaudible].
Young
Okay. Did you go through all the training you did before?
Levine
No. No. I just picked it up from the fiberglass portion. I’m not sure if it was the third block or the second block. I really don’t remember.
Young
Uh huh.
Levine
But then I just proceeded on with that class. Now, as they had finished block one and block two…
Young
Right.
Levine
And they went into fiber glassing. I had finished one and two, and started in with them as part of my new class, and we continued on together.
Young
Okay. [inaudible].
Levine
So I had to meet all new students, and—and get involved with the new class.
Young
Can you describe an event that wasn’t typical in this particular time of your training? You’re in the six months training now. Is there anything that happened that wasn’t typical of an everyday experience or—that you can think of?
Levine
Mm. Not really. No. It was just pretty much—cou—can’t wait to get out and get an assignment type of situation. And, um, I—Like I said, I did the very best I can. I knew I had no choice, and, uh, I was able to pass and continue on. But it was pretty much the same routine. The only difference that we had was that we had, uh, leave on the weekends, and we were able to go into Amarillo, which There’s not much there. So we did have leave—we did have leave time then. It wasn’t like a seven days a week type of training.
Young
Okay.So not really anything memoral—memorable during this time?
Levine
Not really. No.
Young
Okay. So at six—when you finished that six-month training…
Levine
Mmhmm.
Young
What happened then?
Levine
‘Nother interesting point. I guess—I guess I had more interesting points than I thought I did. When I, um, came out of my next—with my new class, my previous class had gone on. And of course. they graduated from the technical school before I did. They all got their orders, and the entire class got orders for Vietnam, okay? So if I was in that class, I would have ended up going to Vietnam, at the time. My situation was, when I graduated and I saw my orders posted, I got sent to Europe [laughs]. So…
Young
That’s interesting
Levine
It is. It was lu—very lucky. Uh…
Young
At that point, you weren’t too [inaudible] —too very sorry that you weren’t very adept to…
Levine
No. Not really. But of course, you know, that can change—that can change at any time also. But, uh, quite a relief on my family’s part, to say the least.
Young
Right.
Levine
Um, It—it was—it was very, [laughs] very interesting time, believe me. So I was sent to Europe, uh, in what they called a “TDY outfit,” which was temporary duty assignments. Now, I was assigned to work on a [McDonnell Douglas] F-4 [Phantom II] aircraft. they called it the “phantom jet.” I worked on [McDonnell] F-101s [Voodoo], [Republic F-]105s [Thunderchief], uh, various different types of programs.
My basic job was to work on the outboard tanks and pylons. The pylons were, uh, the apparatus that held the bomb racks on. So we were working on putting on bomb racks on the different types of aircraft, and they would then go over to Vietnam.
Young
Okay.
Levine
Now…
Young
So you were specialized in your duties?
Levine
Yes. Yes. We were—we became specialized in our duties. Now, the government, at the time—again, we were set up as a temporary duty assignment. We had—had to go from base to base to work on these different aircraft. The government thought that it would be cheaper for us to travel in groups and work on these tanks and pylons, because the point of the—with these jets are: they had the jettison their outboard tanks and their pylon or bomb racks when they took off after their bombing runs. Because if they kept those on, it would add weight to the plane itself, in which case, they couldn’t get away—get away as quick, uh, without them. So they were continuously jettisoning these, and when they would come back to—to Europe, we’d have to refit them with new ones, and make—and—and get them all set up for them to go out again. Even though most of them were based right in Vietnam or Thailand and that[?], um, they still came for—for, uh, overall maintenance back to the, uh—back to Europe.
Young
Okay.
Levine
So…
Young
Where in Europe were you?
Levine
Okay. I was in, uh, Turkey, Italy, Greece, Libya, England, Spain, and my home base was in Germany, okay? That’s where we worked out of. We worked out of Rhein-Main [Air Base], Germany, in, uh, Frankfurt [am Main, Hesse, Germany], okay? So that’s where my main outfit was. It was Detachment 51.
Young
Okay. And that’s[sic] the ones you graduated with?
Levine
No.
Young
[inaudible].
Levine
Actually, some—Most of them—most of them did go on to that, but I think there were about six or seven that went to different, uh— areas, okay?
Uh, that’s another [laughs]—again, that’s another interesting point. Uh, When I flew over from, uh, New Jersey—McGuire Air Force Base. I left out of McGuire Air Force Base. It’s—it’s a funny story. There were like three planes lined up taking all of us over to Europe. There were two commercial airliners, and then there was what they called a “C-141 Galaxy.” And I said, “Oh, I’m going to go over to Europe in a nice, uh, airliner,” and I ended up going over on a military aircraft, sitting in the seats on the sides [laughs]. So it was kind of a bumpy ride over there.
But when I landed, my orders were to catch up with my unit in what they called—in a place called Chaumont[, Haute-Marne], France, okay? So I landed at Rhein-Main Air Force Base, Germany, caught a shuttle, uh—a military shuttle. Uh, it wasn’t a plane. It was a bus, alright? Down to Chaumont, France. Caught up with my, eh—with my group down there, okay? With my detachment down there. And I noticed as I went into—to the offices to report in, that they’re packing up everything. And I went and signed in, and I said to the desk sergeant or whatever his name was, “What—what’s going on,” okay? “I was told to report here.” They said, “Well, we’re leaving.” I said, “Why are you leaving?” Well, at that time, France was not in the best, you know, of friends with the—with the United States. And, uh, this is part of the NATO [North Atlantic Treaty Organization] Pact, and we were—we were leaving out of France. And I said, “Oh,” I said, “So we’re not going to stay in France?” “No.” “Well, where are we going?” He said, “Rhein-Main Air Force Base in Germany.” I said, “Wait a minute. I just came from there.” [laughs] I said, “I just took a bus and came from Rhein-Main.”
Young
Going to your official[?] [inaudible].
Levine
“Why didn’t anybody tell—why didn’t anybody tell me that I was going to go back to—I would never have left I would have waited for ya there.” Well, as it turned out, we went—we went back to Rhein-Main, and, um, set up shop there, and, uh, proceeded to travel all over Europe, and—and working on these tanks and pylons and—and getting them set, so that they—we can put ‘em on the planes, and they can take off.
Young
Did you have a schedule for where you would be and…
Levine
Yes.
Young
How…
Levine
Yes. We had orders every—every time. Uh…
Young
And how did that work? Or—or did you not know ahead of time?
Levine
Um, when we finished one assignment, we’d come back for a while, and, uh, work around…
Young
Always back to Germany?
Levine
Back to Germany. Right.
Young
Okay.
Levine
And then get our—get our next assignment when we were told to go out…
Young
Okay.
Levine
Again.
Young
What was your relationship with the oth—other service personnel that you worked directly with on the pylons?
Levine
Oh, we, uh—we had a good relationship. I mean, we were a unit. We pretty much hung around together. Uh, when we had time, we played softball, uh, on—in a league on base. And again, I was a lot, a lot thinner [laughs] back then. And, uh, we had—we had a good time. I mean, it was pretty much a regular eight-hour day, okay? Uh, if—whether or not it was at the—at the base that we were at, or at our home base in Germany.
There was—every once in a while, we had assignments. Outside of our unit, was the, uh, uh Boeing 707—I think it was, um, at the time. It was the General of the Air Force’s plane, uh, of Europe
Young
Mmhmm.
Levine
Okay. Uh, [inaudible]. It was the General’s plane—his personal plane—was out there. Actually, come to think of it now, it was the [Boeing] KC-135 [Stratotanker] —was—which was an inflight re-fueler, where those, you know—the planes come up to it, and they drop the boom in that. Well, this was a converted KC-135 for the General. Really nice, nice plane. And we had work on that every once in a while, changing some things, and, you know, making sure that everything was okay.
Young
When you were, uh, at base, or on these assignments, were you always busy? Or were there times that you didn’t—were waiting for the next assignment?
Levine
Uh, No. We were busy most of the time. We were busy most of the time. I mean, once again, it was pretty much and eight-hour day, and when we were done, we had—we were free to do whatever we wanted. It was just, uh, like a normal job, except we worked [inaudible]…
Young
Okay. But there wasn’t a lot of just sit around and wait?
Levine
No, no, no, no.
Young
Okay. How did you stay in touch with your family and friends back home?
Levine
Well, at that time, I was—there—there was no such thing as Skype, or, uh, e-mail, and things like that. So it was pretty much by letter. Just by regular letter. Sna—snail mail.
Young
Snail mail.
Levine
[laughs].
Young
Uh, do you believe you were well-trained for your assignment?
Levine
As best as they could, considering what they had to deal with [laughs].
Young
Uh, did you always have the equipment and the supplies that you needed…
Levine
Yes.
Young
To do your job?
Levine
Yes. That—that we had no trouble—we had no trouble with.
Young
And you mentioned you played softball.
Levine
Mmhmm.
Young
How else did you entertain yourself when you weren’t on duty?
Levine
Mm. Well, I’d say drink [laughs]. Um, Just going to different, uh—go to the USO [United Service Organization] over there, and saw stag shows, and had one—one or two beers—four or five.
Young
Was there a USO show that was particularly memorable?
Levine
Yes. The Platters. The original Platters were there. And, um, I—I liked them from the beginning, and I was very fortunate to meet ‘em, and, uh, listen—they put on a great show.
Young
Uh huh.Was that in Germany? Or in one of your other assignments?
Levine
No. That was in Germany.
Young
Okay.
Levine
It was in Germany [sniffs]. But When I—I was in Spain, uh, over one of the New Year’s [Eve]. I was in, uh, Madrid, Spain, and got and to see a flamenco show there. A real, real flamenco show, which was pretty good.
Young
Did you take advantage of any, uh, sightseeing, or…
Levine
Oh, yes.
Young
Or tours…
Levine
Yes.
Young
When you were there?
Levine
Yes.
Young
Okay. That would be entertaining [inaudible]
Levine
Actually, um, I got married while—while I was overseas.
Young
Uh huh.
Levine
And my wife was in the States. She was a—she was an American. She was German—born German, but, um, I married—I got married. And she was able to come over to Europe and get a job in Germany, while I was gone. Fortunately enough, she, um, uh spoke German. So she was able to get around the economy very nicely while I was gone, because I was gone most of the time.
Young
Uh huh.
Levine
But it was nice to have her over there. And when—when I was back there, we were able to travel around.
Young
Oh, nice.
Levine
We were able to go to Holland,[1] and, uh, visit a lot of Germany. Go around—go around Germany.
Young
That’s a—that’s very, uh—very nice thing to have happened…
Levine
Mmhmm.
Young
While you’re
Levine
Mmhmm.
Young
Young, and, uh—and not a lot of money…
Levine
Right. Exactly.
Young
You cantravel around on…
Levine
Exactly.
Young
Uh, Uncle Sam’s dime.
Levine
Mmhmm.
Young
Uh, when were you—tell me about your ranking and how that—and how you…
Levine
Well, actually, I became a sergeant.
Young
You ended up a staff sergeant.
Levine
Uh, pardon me?
Young
You ended up as a staff sergeant. I saw on your…
Levine
Yeah. It was a…
Young
Okay. You start off as a—tell me how that works.
Levine
Well, you just go in as an airman.
Young
Okay.
Levine
Okay. And then, at that time, it was, um, second class, first class, and sergeant.
Young
Okay.
Levine
Actually, I think I mis—misstated. Um, I was three stripes, which was considered a sergeant at the time.
Young
Uh huh.
Levine
Okay. Four stripes is a staff sergeant, so…
Young
Okay.
Levine
I made three. If I had reenlisted, I probably would have gotten a fourth stripe.
Young
Okay. Alright. So you ended up as a sergeant?
Levine
Right.
Young
Okay. And, um, when were you discharged from the military?
Levine
August of 1970. When I rotated back from the States, I, uh, was stationed in, uh, Shaw Air Force Base in Sumter, South Carolina, which was about 7-8 months. So I lived in South Carolina, outside of Columbia.
Young
And how long were you there?
Levine
I think it was 7-8 months. Something like that.
Young
Seven—okay. Um, how did you feel once you were out of the military?
Levine
Relieved. Um, Glad I did what I did. Uh, kind of—Kind of upset as to what was going on, while I was in the military, back home with the individual tour—“pacifists,” I guess you call them—or against the war in Vietnam. I mean, I was not all in favor of what was going on, but, uh, when I did come home on leave at one time, uh, it was not ver— it was not a very good situation. I mean, we were—for all intents and purposes, we were spat at, at the airports, when we walked through. Nobody said, “Thank you for your service.” And, uh, they just didn’t like it. They didn’t like anybody in the military, or anybody in uniform. So that—that kind of part was tough.
Um, Again, I was relieved. But on the other hand, I felt that all of my friends—I was the only one of all my friends back in Rochester. I was the only one to go into the military, and felt that I was four years behind them in education and—and, um—and just getting on with my life. So, you know, it—both sides. I felt good with serving, but on the other hand, I felt that I lost some time.
Young
Um, once you were out, what did you do?
Levine
[sniffs] Another good, interesting situation. Uh, when I got out of the service, my wife became pregnant [laughs]. And, uh, it was probably from the week I got discharged [laughs]
Young
Uh huh.
Levine
She—she got pregnant. In which case, if she got pregnant while we were in the military, the government would have paid for it. If she had given birth while I was in, the military would have paid for it.
But I, uh—when I got out of the service, my main goal was to get back to school. I wanted to get my degree in accounting and—and go on from there. But a little s—s—little turn of events when your wife becomes pregnant. Going to day school is pretty difficult. So I took a job. um, and again, I got out in August, and, uh, school was going to start in September, but I was gonna take—go to night school, okay? And—and get a job during the day. But until that time started, I went to work at McDonald’s, uh, slinging hamburgers. See, eh, eh, my memory’s coming back. I was going to go to day school.
Young
Uh huh.
Levine
So I wasn’t going to enroll until September, but I needed some—to get some income coming in, uh, for my wife and that. So I went to work at McDonald’s slinging hamburgers, which was not a great experience. Because here’s an older gentleman, who’s, uh, slinging hamburgers with a bunch of teenagers, and looking at me, thinking, Boy, he must be a real loser if he’s doing this, not knowing the situation. But I got the job in telling ‘em that I was going to—I wanted to go to school training to become a manager at McDonald’s. This is how I got the job. And, uh, the owner of the place said, “Okay.” He said, “But you—but in order to do that, you have to learn all the different areas of—of McDonald’s.” French fries, working on the grill, the clean-up, the whole bit. . I said, “Okay.” Well, that lasted about a week—week and a half—and I just couldn’t handle it anymore. I would come home smelling terrible from all the fat that was in the French fries. So that lasted maybe a week—week and a half.
But we managed. Um, and I did start going to school, but things got to a point where I just needed to get money. So I went—I was going back to night school. I went to night school, and got a job. Uh, at that time, [sniffs] I was working, I believe, at one of the local manufacturing companies in their finance department. I was working in their cost accounting department. Even though I didn’t have a degree, they—they put me on as—in a lower level type of position. But it was bringing in income, and I—I was able to go to school at night.
Young
And where was this, Larry?
Levine
Rochester Institute of Technology.
Young
Oh, you were back in…
Levine
Yeah.
Young
Back in New York.
Levine
I was back in Rochester. I went back to New York.
Young
Okay. Were you—were there any G.I.[2] benefits
Levine
Yes.
Young
That you were able to take advantage of?
Levine
Yes. Absolutely. I was on the G.I. Bill.[3] Helped me pay for my schooling. Yes. Definitely.
Young
Okay. And so you’re working in the daytime and…
Levine
Mmhmm.
Young
And going to school at night.
Levine
Right.
Young
Okay.
Levine
Mmhmm.
Young
And, uh, we talked about how you were treated…
[background noise]
Young
When you came home, and that, um, there was, um, uh, disrespect…
Levine
Mmhmm.
Young
Dor you as a soldier. Now…
Levine
Right.
Young
Was that set across the board every time you came home on leave? Or, uh, did you notice that when you would go to New York? Or when you would go—when you came back to South Carolina? Was there a difference in the way the local people treated you?
Levine
Not really. No. Not that I can remember. It was just an area that they didn’t go out of their way to—to do anything. More like they were trying to ignore us, then, um—like we were the—the plague.
Young
Mmhmm.
Levine
Okay. And just no—no respect. No respect for anyone. And that’s what makes me feel so good now is that you’re seeing these, uh, individuals in the military, and people are giving them respect and thanking them for their service. So that’s one of the areas where I—I felt cheated out of also—is not getting the respect and that, because it was four years of my life, and that’s a long time.
Young
It is a long time, especially at that age.
Levine
Right. Exactly.
Young
Uh, did your military experience affect your civilian life in any way?
Levine
I became more appreciative of life. Um, More appreciative of the things that I—that I was able to get, uh, of—of my family at the time. Because being away from them most of the—now fortunately, like I said, my wife was able to come with—to come with me over to Europe, but, uh, I missed my brothers and my—and my father. My mother had passed away prior to that, so, uh—but, yeah. Uh, a lot of things, uh—a lot of things that I was more appreciative of, at the time.
Young
Do you think that you were more serious in your education than you would have been as a 20…
Levine
Most definitely. Most definitely. That’s a very good point. I looked at my education totally different. Uh, more—I—I was more involved with history. Um, I—I didn’t feel at the time—you see, there was a lot—a lot difference in going to school and being, pretty much, made to go to school, or that—that was the norm. You—you went to high school. You finished high school. You went to college and then you went on from there.
And because of the interruption, I looked at it from a different stand point that, you know, this is an opportunity. This is a great opportunity, and, uh, the government is helping me with this opportunity, through the G.I. Bill. I’m going to take full advantage of it. So I took full courses. And if anybody knows about Rochester, New York, and going to school at night in Rochester, New York, in the middle of winter is not easy. Okay. It was cold. It was freezing. It was snowing. But, uh, I had a family to support, and I wanted to be able to get my education, so Luckily, I was able to complete it.
Young
Okay. Looking back on it all, can you describe about how you feel about your service? You said that you were glad you did it…
Levine
Mmhmm. Mmhmm.
Young
And anything else you want to add to that?
Levine
No. Other—other than the fact that, um, I personally think that it makes a—a person better going into the military. And I for one, feel that it should be mandatory, because there’s a lot of kids that are going to—to education and that, because they don’t know what else to do.
Young
And so you feel it…
Levine
Okay. And I think when they say it—when they say…
Young
Gives them time to mature and…
Levine
I’m sorry. What’s that?
Young
It gives them time to mature…
Levine
Absolutely.
Young
And to learn…
Levine
Absolutely.
Young
A little about the world and…
Levine
And to grow up…
Young
And to grow up.
Levine
And to grow up…
Young
And to learn some discipline [laughs].
Levine
Yes. That’s the other area. That’s the other area. Like I said, so many don’t know what they want to do with themselves, and they end up in the military. Although they didn’t give me the opportunity to go in the direction that I wanted to. It certainly opened up my eyes to a lot of things. And one is independence. You know, being independent, being able to do things on your own, uh, washing your own clothes, making your own bed, uh, choosing the right things to do.
Young
Did you become more adept to working with your hands?
Levine
I wish I could say yes [laughs].
Young
[laughs] Some things you just can’t learn.
Levine
Some things that you—you have a difficult time doing. That’s correct. Um, I think I’m a little better with a hammer and nails now than I was. I wouldn’t go as far as work with any kind of sheet metal or anything, because I’m sure I would cut my fingers up in shreds, but Yeah. I think I’m a little bit better. I can—I can…
Young
Well, Larry, I thank you for your service. And I thank you for this—for you doing this…
Levine
Well, it was a pleasure.
Young
With us.
Levine
Very enjoyable. Very enjoyable.
Young
And, uh, I enjoyed talking with you about it.
Levine
Mmhmm. Thank you. Thank you.