Dunn
Today is November 13th, 2014. I am interviewing Mr. Curtis Sawyer, Associate Vice President of Administrative Affairs at the University of Central Florida, who served in the United States Army for eight years, achieving 1st Lieutenant as his highest rank. My name is Robin Dunn. We are interviewing Mr. Sawyer as a part of the UCF [University of Central Florida] Community Veterans History Project. We are recording this interview in Orlando, Florida. Good morning, Mr. Sawyer. How are you?
Sawyer
Good morning, Robin.
Dunn
[laughs].
Sawyer
I’m doing fine. Thank you.
Dunn
Alright. We’re going to start with some easy questions. Um, when were you born?
Sawyer
[May 1st,] 1965.
Dunn
Okay, and where were you born?
Sawyer
San Francisco, California.
Dunn
[laughs] And what did your parents do for a living?
Sawyer
Hm, my father originally was a college English professor, and then he switched careers about midcareer and went into real estate, and that’s what—so those were his two primary careers. My mother was homemaker.
Dunn
And did you have any siblings?
Sawyer
I have one older sister.
Dunn
Mmhmm.
Sawyer
She’s three years older. Her name is Dojuan [Sawyer].
Dunn
Dojuan?
Sawyer
Yes.
Dunn
And, um, what is—did she have any military history, as well? Did she enlist in…
Sawyer
No, her husband did. He was enlisted man in the 82nd Airborne [Division] and he used to jump out of airplanes for a living. So he and I had quite, uh—a little bit of a common background.
Dunn
And when did you enlist in the service?
Sawyer
Hm, I went in in [June 30,] 1986.
Dunn
And what made you enlist into the Army?
Sawyer
Well, um, I actually went in as an officer, and so, um, it really wasn’t something that I had thought about, when I was a kid growing up in the country in Tennessee. Um, I always really liked playing war games, and, um—so my little toy soldiers, and, um, tanks, and—and I was just set up these elaborate massive battles, and that’s what they [inaudible], and then I’d go outside and whittled out swords and—And, um, play Army, but that was really the extent of what I thought I would do with that desire to do military stuff.
When I was living in Fort Myers[, Florida] in 1986, our [U.S.] senator,[1] who, at the time, senator was Senator[2] Connie Mack,[3] sent out a new letter to us and my dad saw it and it was a little blurb that said, “Hey. Anybody interested in applying to a service aca—academy, um, here’s what you do.” And so, um, my dad said, “Hey, Curt. You should try to do this. You will never get accepted, because you don’t know anybody political, but you can just go ahead and do it for the experience.” and so I did. I went through the process, I interviewed with the co—committee, I did all the PT [physical training] tests, I did the medical exams, I finished my grades, I showed all the stuff that I had done, and then I forgot about it, and, um, I had gone to community college, as well, like what you did. Edison Community College. Now it’s [Florida] SouthWest[ern] State College. and I was going to graduate from there and then I was either going to go to the University of Florida or Florida State [University], whichever school had the higher ratio of females to males.
Dunn
[laughs].
Sawyer
That was my criteria for de—deciding. and so one day, in the mail, came this official looking binder, and, um—and I opened it up, and I looked at it, and it said, um, “The United States Military Academy is pleased to offer you a letter of-of ac—of, uh—of acceptance to the class of 1986”—the class of ‘90—“at West Point.” So that’s how I started my military career.
Dunn
Mmhmm, and so you went to West Point?
Sawyer
I did.
Dunn
Okay. So how was West Point? What was your experience at West Point?
Sawyer
Hm, you know, um, it was something that I—I did not really prepare for. When I got there, um, a lot of my classmates had already prepared they knew what they were up—so There’s a lot of reading, a lot of memory work you have to do. It’s called “bugle notes.” it’s that thick. You memorize it all: insignia, rank, history, sayings, important figures that graduated—all that stuff. Um, they knew all that stuff, they knew how to shine their shoes and their boots, and they knew how to do a proper salute, and they knew—and I knew nothing about that. So it took me a while to figure that all out, and, um—but once I did it went well enough. Um, yeah.
Dunn
Is there anything, um, memorable about West Point? Do you have any, like, experiences that you enjoyed there?
Sawyer
Yeah, I think every single minute of my four years there is seared into my memory. Um, so it—I’m very proud, um, of my West point experience. I’m glad I went. At the time, it was a little bit—I’ve always been a little bit of, um—of an independent type. Um, kinda a little bit of a free thinker. Not in a really kind of a weird or aggressive way, but just always been independent-minded, and that’s not what West point is about. So, um, it’s been around since [March 16,] 1802, and so there’s a history, and there’s a structure, and there’s a way of doing things, and you either comply with it and you do well, or if you don’t, then you really kind of—you just don’t make it. So, um—so once I kinda came to grips with that, um, I did well.
I, you know—the experiences were very rich. The classmates, which[sic] I still keep in contact with, um, the things I did, the training that I did. During the summers, we really wouldn’t have summers off in military training for vacation. We would go on military training. So I went to Air Assault School[4] and I got my Air Assault wings [Badge], went to Airborne School and did that, went to Germany for six weeks, and so just a lot of kind of—life at a hundred miles an hours.
Dunn
And what did you do after West Point?
Sawyer
Well, um, with West Point comes, um, a commitment—a military commitment in the Army, and so, um, I went into the Army and did that for four and a half years. I was stationed at—at different places and did different things. Do—do you want me to share that with you?
Dunn
Yeah, yeah. Where—where were you stationed?
Sawyer
Okay. So once I graduated from West Point, um, my parents bought me a trip to, um, Cancún[, Quintana Roo, Mexico] with a buddy, and, um, so we did that to kind of celebrate the four years of hard work, which is where I met my wife, Uh, by—By the way. She was my travel agent. I’ll tell that story a little bit later.
Dunn
Okay [laughs].
Sawyer
And, um—and so then after that, I went to the Officer Basic Corps in Fort Benning, Georgia, and then I went to Ranger School, um, and then, um—and then my first duty assignment was in [South] Korea, and, um, did Korea for a while, had a regular line. It’s called a “line platoon,” which is a platoon of—in infantrymen, at the time, and then, um, there I took over—it’s called a “scout platoon,” which is a smaller unit—but basically we would go out and were kinda the eyes and ears of the overall battalion, and, um, once I left Korea, then I came back to the United States and went to Savannah, Georgia, and I served with the 75th Ranger [Regiment] battalion. So the first—first Ranger battalion in Savannah, Georgia, and did that for a while, and then I wrapped up my service.
Dunn
Now, you said you went to Korea. Um, what—what was it like going to Korea? What were your first experiences and thoughts, while you were in Korea?
Sawyer
Yeah, um, you know, it was kind of a surprise that I even went to Korea. The way West point does it is that everything you do, um, counts against your rank, and so there is roughly 1,000 of us that entered, um, our plebe year, and so roughly 900 graduated. and so what they do—so every PT, every—every test that you take, every PT test you take, every academic grade you get, every sport that you play, every demerit that you get, everything goes into this basically a formula, and you’re rank-ordered from number one all the way down to the bottom. So you always know where you stand, in terms of the rest of your classmates, and so, what you do then, is you pick the branch that you want to go, and generally most folks get that they want. I always wanted to go infantry, and then what happens is, at some point in time, several couple month before we graduated, they take you into an auditorium, and we’re all in there, and your names are all—all 900—and then all of the available slots that are available worldwide, in terms of duty stations, right? And they’re all there. They’re all on the board. So the number one person…
Dunn
Mmhmm.
Sawyer
Who, in my class, was a guy by the name of Ed Hoyt, was just this—photographic memory—he is the first choice. So the—the best slots always go first. Vicenza[, Veneto], Italy, always goes first, Hawaii goes, Fort Ord, California, always go first. All the cool place go, and then they work down the list.
So I was about mid-pack. I was like around 450 or so, and I had planned—I was dating this girl, and we was all serious, and it was love and all that sort of thing, and so we had agreed that we were going to—that I was going to go to Fort Lewis, Washington. I was going to stay stateside, and, um, we were going to continue the relationship. and so when it can time, when they called my name, Cadet Curt Sawyer, I stood up and fully expected to say, “Fort Lewis, Washington,” but what came out of my mouth was “the Republic of Korea.” and honest to goodness, [inaudible] I’m like—and my friends all looked at me, and I looked at them, and I’m like, “What have I done?” And, um—and that’s where I went, and so, um, the relationship ended pretty quickly thereafter, and, um, I went to Korea.
So Korea was cool, just because, um, back then, it was fairly tense still. There’s still no formal treaty ending the [Korean] War between North Korea and South Korea. So it—it—it could be tense on the Demilitarized Zone—the DMZ, and, um, so I spent quite a bit of time on the DMZ, with—with the, eh—there—there’s a couple of guard posts that are right there. One of them is Guard Post Ouellette, and it’s actually surrounded on three sides by North Korea. So it kinda jets out and, um, it’s pretty tense, and we would do patrols, and—and look for the North Koreans, and they would look for us, and that sorta of thing.
So I wasn’t married. I didn’t have, um, commitments, and so it was a time that I really dove into my craft of learning to be an Army officer, and doing as well as I could. Um, there were several of my classmates that[sic] I went to West Point with, and I went to Airborne School, and I went to Ranger School—they were over there, and so we were pretty close, and we were just we really, really trained hard, and—And, um—yeah.
Dunn
Okay, and you said you went to Airborne and…
Sawyer
Air Assault.
Dunn
Air Assault School. Do you want to talk about those? And how those experiences helped you?
Sawyer
Yeah, um, those are kinda expected. Those are schools that are kinda expected, um, as an Army infantry officer, um, especially someone that wants to go to, um, Ranger School, and then serve in a Ranger battalion. you—you really—it’s hard to be in a Ranger battalion and not have—be airborne qualified, because of a lot of what Rangers do is you parachute in and do your mission, and so it’s just one of those things, and Airborne School is pretty straightforward. I went to it my junior year. They call it a “cow” at West Point. Your junior year, you’re—you’re a cow. Yeah. It goes: plebe, and then yearly, and then cow, and then firstie, right? And so, um, straightforward. You do five jumps, and then you get your Airborne wings, and you put it on, you wear them, you walk around like somebody special, because you—you jumped out an airplane five times.
So it was cool. It was hot, and then Air Assault School is where you—you—basically, you repel out of helicopters, and, um, it’s—it’s pretty straightforward. It actually was a hard course—not the physical part. It’s just you had to learn how to—to rig items, Jeeps, equipment, and that sorta thing, in order to be able to transport them, and so it’s pretty technical, and that was kinda hard. But, um, and that as in Fort Kentu—um, that was in, um—I forget the name—and in Kentucky. That was really hot. Everything I did, all the classes, or courses, were in the middle of the summer, it felt like. So they were good. It was good training. It helped me in my craft as an Army officer.
Dunn
Okay. Um, now, while you’re in Korea—we’re gonna go back to Korea—um, what did you do when you weren’t working? What was your, like, R&R [rest and recuperation], while in Korea?
Sawyer
Um, yeah, you know, there wasn’t that much time that we were off, um, because we were, um, either at the home base, um, getting ready to go back to the DMZ or, um—or we were recovering from out last mission to the DMZ, or, um, we were actually at the DMZ—the Demilitarized Zone, and what that is: it’s basically a line that—the 45th Parallel [North] that divides North and South Korea.
Dunn
Mmhmm.
Sawyer
And, um, the few times that we—the times that we had off, we would go into the city of Seoul[, South Korea]. So we learned how to take the train and—and the sub—and, uh, the subway—and go into Seoul, and there’s a little place called Itaewon, which is were a lot of us would go. Um, I can’t tell you too much about it, because it was one of—it was kind of a younger, wilder, um, time that was a little bit of a blur.
Dunn
That’s okay [laughs].
Sawyer
[laughs]I will tell you this: they have this stuff “soju,” right? Which is—it’s kinda like our white lightning. It’s—it’s, um—really, really, powerful, clear alcohol. And so you can’t drink it straight, ‘cause it’ll kill ya, I mean, it’s like drinkin’ gasoline. So [laughs] whatcha do though is you is mix it with, um, different kinds of Kool-Aids [laughs], and honest to goodness—and so, um, you know—cherry Kool-Aid, or grape Kool-Aid, or whatev—and so it tastes like Kool-Aid. You can’t taste the—the booze in it. So you drink a couple of those, and you just really kind of, you know, be all you can be as a young, American soldier in a foreign country.
Dunn
[laughs].
Sawyer
[laughs].
Dunn
And how long were you in Korea for?
Sawyer
A year.
Dunn
Okay, and when you came back, you said you went to Savannah, Georgia?
Sawyer
Yes.
Dunn
Okay.
Sawyer
That, um—so I was in Korea And, um—and so the scout platoon became available, so I got selected to do that, which is—which is kinda of an honor, because, um—it just is. Um, ‘cause there is just one scout platoon in a battalion, and, um, and the thing about scouts is, um, you—you have to go out, and you have to be very tactical, you have to be very—you cannot be seen, Right? So you kind of—you integrate.
Well, we had a colonel that was, um—came from the old guard in Washington, D.C, and those are the ones—the Tomb of the Unknown Soldiers. So they walk, and all the pomp and the ceremony, and all that sorta thing. Well, that stuff is great, but it doesn’t really work when you’re out in the field, you know? There it’s more about performance, more—it—more about getting the bad guy before the bad guy get you, and so I didn’t wear full uniform that—that he wanted. He thought I should.
For example, I would take my helmet off. When you’re out in the woods, you know, it’s really kinda hard to hear, and—and, um, be stealthy and crafty when you have this big ol’ thing on your head that’s covering your ears. So I’d take that off, and I would have the boys put—called “watch caps” or “balaclavas.” Well, he caught wind of that, and really, really, um, really, kinda hit the roof, and was determined that he was just going to kinda ruin my military career off of that, and, uh, the thing about him though: he was West Point, so he knew I was a West Point, and he said, “Well, let me give this,” you know—‘cause a lot of folks were really kinda rooting for me saying, “No. this guy is little bit kinda on the wild side maybe, but he’s really, really good at what he does, and so give him a chance.”
So what he did is like, “Okay, Lieutenant Sawyer. I’m gonna go on a mission with you, alright? And I’m gonna see if you’re as good as what people are sayin’.” And so, um, so he showed up and—and, of course, we have all our equipment, you know? For example, I would carry two radios, in order to communicate with higher headquarters, plus also my—my soldiers that[sic] were all spread out all over kind of Korea.
Dunn
Mmhmm.
Sawyer
And, um, so between all that equipment, it’s maybe 70-80 pounds of weight, and so he showed up with just his little—this kind of thing, with his water and his radio, and said, “Okay, Lieutenant Sawyer. Let’s go,” and I’m like “Sir, where’s—where’s all your equipment?” And he’s like, “I got my Jeep tailing me, so, um, don’t worry about me. You just show me what ya got.” So, um—so I’m like, “Okay.”
So I— told my platoon sergeant “Alright. Sergeant Iver[sp]. Get ready. Um, we’re gonna climb the tallest mountain I can find,” and, um— and so we did, and, um, a lot—a lot of it was climbing on our hands and knees, and it took most of the day to climb the mountain, and we got to the top, and then we set up camp, and, um—and then I deployed all my different scouts, and—and, um—and basically, we did such a good job that the colonel changed his mind, and, um—and so therefore, um—but then the next continuation of that is that the Rangers came recruiting to Korea, and, um, all my friends were like, “Rangers. That’s—that’s the pinnacle. We wanna go. Um, we wanna be a Ranger.” so, like, “Let’s go, Curt.” and I’m like, “No. I have only about a month left in Korea and I already have orders.” I’m gonna go to Fort Smith, Arkansas, with a—it’s called a “Joint Readiness Training Center”—the JRTC. I’m fine with that. I’ve come to grips with that. I’m kinda looking forward to it. I’m not really much interested in this Rangering stuff, and so they’re like, “Well, at least come along with us.” And, um, so I went with them, and I interviewed with the Rangers, and then, um, eh, strangely enough, I was the only one that—that was accepted, and was offered, um, an invitation to join the Rangers, and so once that happened, I thought, Okay. Well, I guess this is too good an offer to refuse, and so I ended up going to Savannah with the 1st Ranger battalion.
Dunn
Okay, and what was your job in the 1st Ranger battalion. What was—what did you do exactly?
Sawyer
Yeah, um, yeah. Uh, Rangers are—are part of [United States Army] Special Operations [Command], and so my job was a platoon leader to lead, and—and their big platoons, so it’s roughly 55, um—55 men, and, um, our job was different things: to raids, to do ambushes. We would—we would parachute in most of the time and—and do our—do our mission, and then get extracted. um, sometimes, it would be fast strobing—it’s called “fast strobing,” where you have a helicopter that comes in, and then basically, you jump out, grab the rope, and—and you slide down, and jump out of the way, and the helicopter keeps moving like this, so you go, and you kinda just go, and you assemble and move off.
Dunn
Mmhmm.
Sawyer
Um, so ambushes, raids. Um, a big part of it was, um, airfield seizures—airfield—airfield takes downs, which is actually pretty cool, ‘cause we had a special vehicles, that, um—special vehicles Land Rovers, that were made just for the Rangers, that would fit into the airplanes. So the [Lockheed] C-130s [Hercules] and the [Lockheed] C-141s [Starlifter] [sniffs]. Um it—it’s called “Jeeps” and “bikes.”
So, uh, [laughs] it’s pretty cool. So you’d drop the ramp of the—of the aircraft, and then you’d drive your Jeeps up there, and we also had dirt bikes, and, um, our job was, um, once other members of the platoon would go in—jump in, and secure the airfield, make sure there was no debris on the runway—We would come in, drop the ramps, disembark, drive off, and then establish blocking positions, so that the enemy could not retake the—the airfield. So different things. Yeah.
Dunn
And, um, uh, did you see any combat at all?
Sawyer
No.
Dunn
No?
Sawyer
No, I did not. When I was in Korea—Korea—since Korea has just kind of a—kind of a special mission—because we’re at peace, but we’re not really—um, I did not go to the First, um, Iraq War.[5]
When I was in Ranger School, um—I remember in January of ’91, we were doing a patrol at Eglin Air Force Base, and so we had just jumped into our—our rubber boats, called “Zodiacs” or “RB-15s,” and we were doing a mission. It was the last mission of that phase of Ranger School, and we were all just really tired and really weak, and, we just wanted to be kinda done with it—just done with it, and, um, course, it’s night. All the—all the missions you do in the military are—are at night, um, and so we had just pushed off, and we were just about to start rowing, and then this big ol’ colonel—this big ol’ colonel that[sic] I have never seen before—he must have of weighed 250 pounds—came running and jumped into our—our boat, and then, we—we could see just enough in the moonlight that he looked like he had some rank that kinda outranked us, or we were a little bit different, and he was listening to a radio, and that’s when we had first started bombing. That’s when we first went into Iraq, and he was listening to it and said, “Alright, Rangers. This is for real now. We’re goin’ to war. Every single one of you.” you know, gave some colorful adjectives, um, “Will be over there, um, inside of two months. So you better that this seriously,” which we already were, But, um—and so we were momentarily kinda pumped, you know, because when you’re in the military and that sorta thing that we’re doing, you kind of—you wanna go into combat, you want go where the danger is, but then after that, we were mostly worried about this big ol’ colonel was just gonna make our jobs harder to row, and—and, so, um, that’s what we’re mostly worried about.
Dunn
Um, did you stay in touch with your family, while you were over there?
Sawyer
Well, um, that gets in the story of my wife. So do you wanna hear about this? [laughs].
Dunn
Yeah.
Sawyer
I won’t tell you all the details.
Dunn
[laughs].
Sawyer
But, um—so when I graduated from West Point, my parents sent my best friend and I to a trip to Cancún, and so, um, we had to go to a travel agent. My mother, for some reason or another, got so upset with our normal travel agent. So we said, “We’re just not gonna go to her anymore. We’re gonna go fine a different travel agent.”
So back then you didn’t really have the Internet. You couldn’t pull up your—your PDA and see where the—we just went driving, and so we saw a “travel agent,” and Mom said “That’s it. That’s the one.” [sniffs] And so we walk in there, and there was this really, really pretty girl with really, deep green eyes, and I’m like, Hello. I didn’t say that.
Dunn
[laughs].
Sawyer
I was thinking that, right? And, um, so we sat down, and she arranged it, and I’m looking at her, and I’m thinking Wow, you know? Um, I—I—I think, um—and you can kinda tell, she kinda was mildly intrigued with me—not overwhelmed—but mildly, and so, um—and so when I get back from Cancún, I’m gonna come back and I’m gonna ask this—this lady out, Right? And so then when I came back, um, I—I remembered her, and I had every intention, and then I end up meeting this other girl, who actually was a cop in Miami[, Florida], who was also a lawyer, but she put the law thing on the side, and she wanted to work a cop in one of the most dangerous areas of Fort Lauderdale[, Florida], and so I got kinda sidetracked with that nonsense for about five months, until was finally able to get outta that—get out of that. That was really not a good relationship.
So then I got my orders to go to Korea, right? And, um—so I had to fly commercial, so I went back to the travel agent, and then when I walked in, I’m like Hello. I—I kinda, like, forgotten [laughs] all about her, but then when I saw those pretty green eyes, I[sic] like, Whoa, you know? And it was a mess. I was young, right? We were all young, and, um—and so then, I ask her out, and, um, so we dated for a week, and then I went to Korea, and the way Korea is, back then, you really don’t come back, and there really wasn’t a whole lot of e-mail back then. Um, so, we wrote. We hand wrote letters, back and forth, and she saved every single of them. She still has them. We’ve been married 22 years. She saved every single one of ‘em, and I was—and I was faithful to her, um, until about eight months through, and then—and I know this sounds funny—I mean, [inaudible— I met the colonel’s daughter. Literally, I met the colonel’s daughter, and, um, [laughs] and so, um, started dating her, and so I wrote Lisa [Sawyer]—my Lisa—a “Dear Lisa” letter, you—you know? And bought a 12-pack, and got liquored up, and wrote it, and she saved that doggone letter
Dunn
[laughs].
Sawyer
[laughs] And she still has that doggone letter. So alright—and anyways, so I’m like, “Sorry. Met the colonel’s daughter. It’s been nice knowing ya.” we only dated for a week. What’s the big deal, right? And, um [sniffs]—and that was that. So the colonel’s daughter came back—she was in Texas. I came back, and, um, thought everything was good, right? Unbeknownst to me, while I was I Korea, my parents took Lisa up under their wings, and really—they really like her, and so they stated to take her to church with them, and—and really kind of mentored her, and developed this close relationship.
So when I got back I said, um, “Dad and Mom,” uh, you know, “Lisa and I are no longer together.” “Well, what happened?” So I explained it all, and they’re like, “Well, that’s no good.” um, “That’s not the way to do it. We’re not happy with—with that, but that’s your decision, but you do not do that via a letter.” I’m like, “Alright. I’ll call her.” and they’re— “Nope. You gotta go see her and tell her face to face that you’re sorry.” And, um, and but you’re formally— I’m formally ending the relationship. They’re pretty old school. Um, I respect that now. At the time I was like, Ugh.
So I call Lisa up, and said “Lisa, this is Curt. Um, I—I wanna come see you.” She hung up on me. So I went back to my parents, and said, “Hey, I’m off the hook. She doesn’t wanna talk to me.” They’re like, “No, no, no.” [laughs]. “You’re a Ranger. It doesn’t work that well. Figure out a way.” So I called her back, said “Lisa,” you know, “The way my parents are. They won’t get off my back, until I come see you. Can I come see you? Just, eh, five minutes. Don’t even have to walk in the door. Just need to see you, check the block, then my parents are off my back. Help me out.” She was like, “Okay. Come over.”
So I went over to see her. She opened out, uh—the door, and I’m like, Hello, you know? The—I know, and, um, she ended up inviting me in. so, um—and so the long story short of it is: um, I broke it off with the colonel’s daughter, and then Lisa and I started dating again, and we got married six months later, and, um, so even with all that nonsense of how that started out, um, eh, she’s just been a blessing, and I’ve been absolutely faithful to her for 22 years, and she’s just more than I deserve. So that was kinda that.
Then the colonel’s daughter, right? So she was flying into Orlando, but flying out of Fort Myers. So I still had to go pick her up, and she was pissed at me. She was pissed. So I went to pick her up, didn’t speak a word for like three-quarters of the trip, and then the floodgate’s going, “How could you do this?” I mean, and, uh, I’m like, “What can I say? I’m sorry. I know I—it’s on me,” you know? So then, I put her on the plane and—and that was it. No more drama.
Dunn
[laughs] Okay. Um, what did you do when you—after, with your wife and—meeting her—what did you do after coming home from Korea and after you got out of the service? Like, what did you do afterwards?
Sawyer
Yeah, um, when I came back—so I did the Rangering thing for a while in Savannah, and, um, deployed quite a bit. Did a lot of, um—did a lot of trainings—did a lot of training. Really enjoyed it, really enjoyed the Rangers, and really enjoyed the Army. Um, When I was at West Point—even though I really appreciated my West Point experience and I’m very proud of it, very proud of the mission it has, and what—the impact it continues to have—but I said, You know, if the Army is anything like West Point, then I want nothing to do with it. I’m just gonna do my time, and I’m going to get out, and, um, the Army was completely different from the West Point, for the most part, and, uh, then I got out, um, from West Point into the Army, I—I tried all the stuff that I was taught. You know, it’s gotta be formal and—and all this sorta thing, and they laughed at me. Like, “Get over yourself, Lieutenant. That’s just not the way it works.” Well, I’m like, “Okay. How does it work?” “Just be yourself, just lead the men, just lead, alright?” I’m like, “Oh, okay. Well, that’s great.” so I scrapped all this stuff. It—it really wasn’t scrapping all the stuff, but it was truly being a leader and taking charge, and, um—so yeah, um, therefore, I really, really, um, really enjoyed the military. Um, really enjoyed what the Rangers did and what they stood for.
Um, Lisa and I got married while I was still in the military, and then um, we wanted to start a family and that sorta thing. So, um, decided to get out, and then after that, went into the, um—the private sector. Worked for three Fortune 500 companies for 14 years, before I came to UCF.
Dunn
Now, you really seemed to enjoy the Army. What was your most memorable experience? Or something you really enjoyed in it? Like, what was—like maybe a good story, or hanging out with your friends? What was something you really, really enjoyed?
Sawyer
Hm, hm.
Dunn
It can be multiple. It doesn’t just have to be one.
Sawyer
Yeah, you know, I—I really, um—when I was with the Rangers, um, we de—we went and, um, trained with the French Foreign Legion, um, in Corsica, France. So, um, three companies of the, um—of the batta—um, three platoons of the company went to Belgium, and they did their training, and my platoon was selected to go and train with the Legionnaires, and, um, that was really cool, because not many military—not many American units are able to do that—to lay claim to training with the French Foreign Legion, which, when you’re in military circle, that’s—they’re well-known. They’re pretty hardcore. Um, Rangers—we considered ourselves hardcore, so it’s, —it was kinda cool for two hardcore entities to get together and train together.
They trained differently from us. Um, by that, I’ll give an example. We were running a live fire, and, um—in France—and kinda showing them American tactics, and right in the middle of that—American tactics—the—the military officers are very much involved in that—coordinating, that sorta thing. My counterpart—my French counterpart pulled me off the side and said, “Hey, Curt,” you know? He didn’t call me Curt. It was Lieutenant Sawyer. “We gotta go over here and do lunch.” I’m like, “What is that?” [laughs]. “What do you have in the basket?” And he pulled out a loaf of bread, and he pulled out some cheese, and he pulled out a bottle out a bottle of wine/ and he was kinda just wanting to sit up on that p—hillside and just kinda watch it all, and I’m like, “Thank you for the offer, but I can’t do that. I got live bullets flying down range, and it’s a very dangerous situation, and I need to be…” so he—he was—was just different tactics, and the other thing I would say that’s kinda interesting is that we—we actually parachuted with them, you know? They had these old planes, and we looked at the plane—My Rangers all looked at the plane, and were, “We’re gonna jump out of that thing?” It’s called a [Transall] “C-160.” It looked old. It was old, and, um—and they were like, “Yup, and we were like, “Okay,” you know? And so we waited, and we sat there on the tarmac out on the airfield, and we waited and we waited, and we’re like, “Where are the pilots?” and they’re like, “They’re still, um, having lunch.” and so they were inside having lunch, and drinking wine, and kinda getting half crocked. So when they came out, they were kinda a staggering a little bit, and, um, I’m like, “We’re not gonna jump with these guys. It’s—it’s a little bit…”
Plus, there’s a thunderstorm coming, the wind was picking up. When you—when you jump out of airplanes, the one thing you don’t want to do it jump out when the wind is blowing too hard, because you can’t control were you land, and, um—and basically they said, “Well, I thought Americans were tough,” you know? “You gonna let a—a little wind, a little wine kinda…” so, of course, we had to, and so we went up and—and we jumped, and, um, it was really, really windy. What they do is they throw a—it’s called a “dummy.” Um, it’s—it’s kind of, you know—it’s a stuffed—supposed to simulate a—a man—a grown man, and they throw it out, and then, wherever it goes, they adjust where the jumpers go out, and generally, you—the best case scenario: you throw the dummy out and the dummy just goes straight down. This time, he threw the dummy and the dummy went wick with the wind, and we’re like, “Whoa.” And so we jumped, and, um—and—and the wind is just taking us haywire, and, um, outside the compound—the compound was rimmed with—with [inaudible] or wire, and all that sorta thing, and, um—and as we’re going down and—and thinking, Well, this is gonna really kinda be painful, I saw my platoon sergeant just go fwoomp. He just was dropping like a rock, and I’m like, Whoa. What’s going on with that? And so I looked at him, and he figured out a way to really kinda make his parachute drop a lot faster. Basically, pulled his risers down, put his feet in ‘em, pushed them down, and it made him just go down. So I’m like, Let me try that. So I did it. So he and I were the only ones to land kinda where we were supposed to, and all the rest of the boys landed in the wire, or on the roofs, and on trees, and all that, and it took us the rest of the day to clean us all up, but nobody got hurt, and, um—so yeah. Things like that. Just kind of hardcore training, and, um, strong relationships, and, um, just standing ready to kinda serve our country, whenever we were called.
Dunn
And you said you made a lot of friends at West Point. Um, do you stay in contact with people from West Point? Or any people from the Rangers, as well?
Sawyer
Yeah, I do still. Some, you know—over—over the course of 20 years, you know, things drift, people change. That’s one things we really noticed is that we’ve changed. My wife and I really changed, and so, um, what used to interest us, just in terms of likes and—and [inaudible] and that sort of thing, they really—not so much anymore, so—inevitably too, but, yes, we have kept in touch with some of my classmates. Some of them are still in. some of them are now getting to the point they’re—they’re, um, becoming generals, brigadier generals—which is kinda cool, ‘cause, you know, we remember each other from just doing spirit missions at West Point, and getting hazed, and just doing silly things, and getting trouble over it, and that’s[sic] the memories a lot of us have, and now they’re—they’re national leaders, you know? A lot of my classmates have gone on and are part of the NSA [National Security Agency], and CIA [Central Intelligence Agency], and FBI [Federal Bureau of Investigation], and—and, um, into politics, and—and really had done well for themselves. So, yeah. It’s kinda cool to keep up with them. Um, Facebook, obviously, we see a lot. A lot of my classmates have children that are now at West Point, so, um—so, yeah. It’s kinda cool.
Dunn
Um, has[sic] your experiences in the Army impacted your life?
Sawyer
Sure. Um, inevitably. One: it was just, uh—I think with anybody that that’s in, it’s just a special time. It’s just a really special time, because you’re so focused. One: you—I don’t think you will find anybody—you will—it will—rarely, that you will find someone that doesn’t really, really strongly believe in the mission of what we did, and so a lot of times, what we do—we go into the business world, we go in the corporate world, we—we get jobs in that sorta thing, and say, “Well, what’s your mission? What is your purpose?” and well, if you’re in the corporate world, it is to make somebody else money. It’s to make money. So you—you put that and you stack that against serving and honoring and protecting my country. Well, it’s kinda hard to compare with that. So when you put that—people strongly believe in that—then everything has a greater sense of urgency, just in terms of training, and—and awareness, and wanting to—to hone your craft, In order to be able to stand ready, when you’re called
So, yeah. It’s just kind of a special time, and, um—and certainly, some of the characters—the—the discipline—discipline, and the focus, and, you know—and the—the mentality that you’ll never give up, ‘til you accomplished the mission, you know? The mission manifests itself in many different ways, depending on what you do, but still, at the end of the day, still an objective or a mission, and the military just teaches you how to be creative in how you’re going to figure out how to do it.
Dunn
Okay.
Sawyer
So that makes sense?
Dunn
Yes, yes [laughs].
Sawyer
Okay.
Dunn
Um, well, um, we are getting to the end. So, um, would you advise anyone else, um, today to enlist? Since you enlisted, would you advise anybody else who would like to enlist that it’s a good thing, a bad thing?
Sawyer
Yeah, I think it’s a great thing. You know, there’s[sic] two different ways about going about it. One is through the officer, um—through the officer channel. The other is through enlisted, you know? And so each have its attractiveness for—depending on what people’s goals are.
Dunn
Mmhmm.
Sawyer
You know? So I always wanted to do the officer thing, just because I wanted—I wanna be a leader, you know? You—you’re either a leader, or you’re kinda not. So, if you’re a leader, you kinda wanna be right in the middle of things, and—and you have more impact as an officer, generally. Um, um, I—I know as an NCO—a non-commissioned officer—you can still have that, but it takes longer to get that so, but certainly, as enlisted, I think that’s a very noble profession. Um, and it certainly helps with the GI Bill, and benefits, [U.S. Department of] VA [Veterans Affairs] care. A lot of folks don’t think about that from an early age.
Dunn
Mmhmm.
Sawyer
But once you serve in the military, you have access to VA—Veterans Administration care the rest of your life, and, um, that’s kinda a bid deal, and a lot of the other benefits that come along with it. So that’s not the primary reason why you should join, but certainty, I think it’s part of the consideration, and, um, the other is: there’s not a whole lot of pensions around anymore. If you do your 20 years in the military, then you get a pension, and, um—so, yeah. I would strongly encourage folks that[sic]—that[sic] are really, truly want to serve their country to—to consider it, and—regardless whether it’s Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines, Coast Guard—all that. I’ve never been one to say, “Well, it’s gotta be Army only.” Yeah. We all serve.
Dunn
Uh, is there anything else you want to talk about? Any stories you wanna tell us? Anything that comes to mind?
Sawyer
Hm, no. I don’t think so.
Dunn
No? Okay. Well, I would like to thank you for sharing your story with us, and myself, and the UCF community, and we will be in touch with you once the copy of the interview is done.
Sawyer
Okay. Well, thank you.
Dunn
Thank you.
Unidentified
We’re ready.
McGuire
Are you saying go?
Scherer
[laughs] Today is April the 1st, 2014. I am interviewing, uh, Lieutenant Colonel George G. McGuire. My name is [Rose Marie] “Judy” Scherer. Uh, please call me Judy. Um, his interview is being conducted at UCF [University of Central Florida] in Orlando, Florida. It is part of the UCF, um—the whole title is—is Community History Project—[Community] Veterans History Project. Um, so we are going to start with, um, the early days. I would like to ask you where you were born and grew up.
McGuire
Alright. Well, I was born in New Jersey—Summit, New Jersey. And When I was, uh, a few weeks old, my family moved on to Baton Rouge[, Louisiana].
Scherer
Wow [laughs].
McGuire
Where my father worked in the oil refinery at Baton Rouge during World War II, and where I managed to acquire twin brothers and a sister.
Scherer
Oh [laughs].
McGuire
Um, Shortly—well, not shortly. When I was about eight years old—eight or nine years old—we moved to England.
Scherer
Oh.
McGuire
Where my father was building an oil refinery at Fawley, near South Hampton, for Esso in England. After we had been there about three years, we moved to Durban, South Africa.
Scherer
Wow.
McGuire
Where he was again a resident engineer for construction of an oil refinery—first one on the continent of Africa—and where I acquired a brother. I had acquired another sister in England, and now I had a brother in South Africa, so there are six children.
We sailed back to the United States. This is now approximately 1954 on a ship called the African Enterprise, which was a, um, freighter—combination freighter and passenger ship that carried a few passengers. And we were the only children, so we had the run of the ship.
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
And that was great fun. We got back to, uh, New York in the middle of the wintertime. And my memory says it was in February, but that may not be right. And of course, being good loyal little Americans who had been out of the country for so many years, we had to stand up on the ship and watch Miss [the Statue of] Liberty as we came into New York Harbor.
Uh, following that, we lived in New Jersey for a number of years. And then I went off to college at the University of Notre Dame. And shortly afterwards, my father quit his job and moved to Massachusetts.
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
And, uh, the bane of my life was that when I would go home for vacation to a place in Massachusetts surrounded by girls’ colleges, they all had vacation break at the same time as we did.
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
So there was nobody there.
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
And of course, Notre Dame at that time was all men, and there were no women there, unless we found some in the local community, which was a very difficult thing to do.
Uh, At Notre Dame, they had three R—all three ROTC [Reserve Officers' Training Corps] programs. This is 1959 when I started there. There’s a shooting [Vietnam] War going on in Asia. People are being drafted. I had no interest in being drafted and being given a rifle and go shoot people, so I said Okay. I’d rather be an officer. And no, I don’t want to walk around in the mud, and I don’t want to sit on a boat bobbing up and down in the ocean. And since you have Air Force, I will go Air Force.
Um, so I did. And when I was graduating Notre Dame, I was commissioned as a Second Lieutenant in the United States Air Force and promptly sent to Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri.
So one of the first things I did was I bought myself a car. I didn’t have a car at that point, so I brought a brand new, shiny red Valiant convertible. And that was a neat looking car. I shaw—showed up on base, and went into my first assignment, and the people I’m working with—one of them takes one look at that car and says, “I give you one year.”
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
Uh huh. And, uh, he turned out to be right. Because a few months later, I met a young lady, and less than a year later, we were married. All fault is directed at that shiny red convertible, I suppose.
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
About a year or so after we were married, I got orders to transfer to McCoy Air Force Base, which, of course that’s a hardship tour to come to McCoy Air Force Base, which is now Orlando International Airport, where I was the base procurement officer here.
Now, they had assigned me to procurement when I went to Whiteman, and I didn’t know what “procurement” was. I only knew one meaning for the term, and it had more to do with what you did after hours than it did with buying anything the Air Force wanted. Anyway, I became procurement officer. “Procurement” just simply means that you’re the guy in charge of going out and buying stuff.
So I was stationed here in McCoy, and, um, about that time, is when what was then called “Orlando Air Force Base” is transitioning to the Navy. And the last Air Force unit to transition out from Orlando Air Force Base was the hospital. So my two sons have the distinction of having been born in an Air Force hospital on a Navy base.
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
From here, the, uh, Air Force sent me up to Washington, D.C., to go to George Washington University for a Master’s Degree in Business Administration, as my assignment for a year and a half. And then from there, to go to Seattle, Washington, to the, uh, Defense Contract Administration Services management area Office, otherwise known as DCAS.
Scherer
Excuse me. What was it known as?
McGuire
DCAS. D-C-A-S.
Scherer
S.
McGuire
Judy had a problem with this one earlier.
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
Which was at, um, Sand Point Naval Air Station, which was a little pimple on the side of the wealthiest area of ci—city of Seattle, a few blocks away from the University of Washington. Not very far from it. It no longer is a military installation. It’s now high-cost residential.
Um, let’s see. from there, the next assignment was to Bangkok, Thailand, to be the, uh—one of the officers assigned to the Air Force’s Procurement Center in Downtown Bangkok, which was supporting all of the Air Force and some of the Army units, uh, throughout Thailand and, uh, Vietnam. And this is at the tail end of the Vietnam War.
From there, I went back to the United St—came back to the United States to go to uh, Norfolk, Virginia, to the Armed Forces Staff College.
And then from there, to the, uh, Air Force OSI—Air Force Office of Special Investigations—in Washington, D.C., to act as an in-house consultant on procurement matters. Air Force OSI had been founded la—years before, in the very early days of the Air Force, because of scandal having to do with contracting. And then they had gotten away from that and they had forgotten had to spell “contracting.”
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
As they got mostly inter—interested in chasing drugs. But in, um—somewhere around 1970, there was another big scandal that came up that didn’t have anything to do with the Air Force, but it did with the Navy. And the Air Force decided that it would be smart to get back into that business and pay attention, because we are spending just huge sums of money. We ought to be paying attention to it. And the first thing they needed to do was to find somebody who knew something about the procurement system and could come in and act as an in-house consultant to them, and so they chose me.
Scherer
Really?
McGuire
So for two years, I taught OSI agents how to spell “procurement” and the kinds of things to look for. The big thing coming out of it was to find out just how honest the system really is at that level. There may be corruption at other levels, but at the level of the working people doing the job, it is a very, very honest system.
Um, now what did I skip? Somewhere in here, I skipped something. No. I guess not. When that was finished, they sent me to Japan to be the Deputy Director of the Air Force’s Procurement Center in Tokyo—actually, at Yokota Air Force Base,[1] which is just in the western suburbs of Tokyo—in which I had the responsibility for all of the, um, in-country support for Air Force and Army, and staff responsibilities towards the, uh, Army Center—similar to it in Korea, that took care of Air Force and Army in Korea.
And, uh, let me think for a moment. Oh, yes. One of the, um, cases that I had run in the OSI had been an accusation made against the Lieutenant Colonel who commanded the Air Force Procurement Center at Yokota Air Base—that he was corrupt, and that he was accepting bribes from, uh, one of the car companies , which the, uh, U.S had a contract with for small engines.
Well, the truth of the story—it turned out, that the man was an elder of the Mormon Church,[2] as well, as being a[sic] Air Force officer. And he had led a church group on a visit to the plant. Just a visit to go see what the plant looks like. And his big mistake: when he got back to his office was he had written the thank you note on Air Force letterhead, rather than on Mormon Church letterhead. And that had kicked off all of these accusations that he was, uh, a corrupt and on the take from this car company, which of course, he was not. But we had spent a bunch of time going and checking it out, so I knew all about it [laughs] before I got there.
Um, then that was followed by an assignment back in the United States to go to Rock Island Arsenal [in Rock Island-Moline, Illinois] to be the Deputy Director of the ammunition procurement division for U.S. Army Armament Material and [the U.S. Army Military Intelligence] Readiness Command, functioning as something called “Single Manager for Conventional Ammunition.”
Army buys all the ammunition used by the military—all production ammunition, not development, but production—ammunition used by the military, of whom the Air Force was the second largest consumer. And therefore, the Air Force, to help with that mission, sent six officers to Rock Island to participate. And at th—this point, I am a Lieutenant Colonel. And so I became the Deputy Director of that division. We spent in that one division—and this is 1980—one and a half billion…
Scherer
[gasps].
McGuire
Dollars a year. This is peacetime. One and a half billion. Buying bits and pieces of little things, most of which costs less than one dollar a unit, and the most expensive one was ten dollars a unit. All over the country. And then, the things we bought would flow to the Army load plants to be made up into rounds of ammunition—most of them. And they spent another billion and a half or so putting the stuff together as ammunition.
Okay. So I’m making decisions every day about how am I spending one and a half billion dollar budget. I’ve got a hundred people literally working for me. Uh, we are loading plants all over the country. We are making decisions about which factories we keep in business and which ones we don’t, and which communities stay in business because the factory’s there, and which ones don’t. And then I go home, and I have to be concerned if there was enough money in the checking account for my wife to go grocery shopping.
Scherer
Whoa. A great[?] contrast.
McGuire
This got a little bit mind-bending at times.
Scherer
Quite a contrast.
McGuire
Hm?
Scherer
Quite a contrast.
McGuire
Quite a contrast. Yeah. And then, uh, I retired.
Scherer
Yes.
McGuire
At this point. I had been in the Air Force for 20 years and three weeks
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
And I decided it was time to go. I had three kids that needed to go to college, and they weren’t going to do it on Lieutenant Colonel’s pay, so I had to go do something else.
And another interesting thing, to me at least, was that I had joined Air Force ROTC back there in college, because I had no desire to be anywhere near the Army or the Navy, but especially the Army. And so for my final tour of duty, I am winding up serving with the Army
Scherer
Oh.
McGuire
As one of their officers [laughs].
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
Anyway, so that’s it.
Scherer
What—when were you serving for the Army? Was that duty procur—procure—procurement, or was that when you [inaudible]?
McGuire
No. That was with the Army. I was Deputy Director…
Scherer
Yeah.
McGuire
For Ammunition Procurement.
Scherer
Yeah.
McGuire
Deputy Directory of Ammunition Procurement Division of that Army command.
Scherer
Well, it all is very impressive, and I’m sure it was most important, but it sounds to me like your career was drug[?] running and buying guns [laughs].
McGuire
Uh, no. actually…
Scherer
Just joking.
McGuire
I might have bought some drugs along the way.
Scherer
To find out where [inaudible].
McGuire
But they would have been legal ones.
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
Um, Never bought any guns. Never bought an airplane, but I bought just about everything else.
Scherer
Well, when you were doing procurement, the rifles—what were you actually…
McGuire
Oh, I didn’t buy the rifles. I bought the ammunition that went in the rifles.
Scherer
Oh, you bought the ammunition. Sorry. Yeah.
McGuire
Somebody else bought the rifles.
Scherer
Oh, you [inaudible].
McGuire
There was another group doing that.
Scherer
Yes.
McGuire
And there was another officer.
Scherer
Mmhmm.
McGuire
Other officers assigned to that.
SchererSo you said you were in Bang—so—so you said you were in Bangkok
McGuire
Mmhmm.
Scherer
And then you were in Thailand—I mean, Thailand is Bangkok.
McGuire
Yes.
Scherer
And other places, but um, did you—did you do anything in the states? How long were you in the states at the end of the career?
McGuire
Well, it was three years in, uh, Rock Island.
Scherer
Yes.
McGuire
It was three years at McCoy Air Force Base.
Scherer
Yes.
McGuire
So two years in Whiteman’s. So that’s at least eight years of doing procurement there. And it was two years in the OSI, advising the OSI people about procurement—participating in, uh—in their actions.
Scherer
Could you enlarge a little about your stay in Bangkok, and tell us more about what you did, and how difficult or easy it was? Because of the place, of course, it is always very hot there. [inaudible].
McGuire
Yes. As we were talking earlier, if you got a, um, weather report for Orlando and a weather report for Bangkok, for the months of July, August, and September, you could not tell the difference as to which city you’re reading the report on. It’s the same.
Scherer
Interesting.
McGuire
The difference is, of course, that Orlando does cool down—some. Bangkok doesn’t. The, uh—Bangkok only has, um, three temperatures—hot, hotter, and hellatious.
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
Uh, Bangkok was a very interesting and very, very different, uh, type of assignment. At that time, the Air Force’s procurement office was in a building in the center of Bangkok. It was called the “Chokchai Building,” and it, uh—it wasn’t terribly tall. My memory says seven floors, but it might’ve been more. Uh, the city was built on swamp, so the building was constructed such that it floated. And its basement was a big concrete barge, and it was floating. Now, the technology has progressed, and you go to Bangkok, and there are skyscrapers all over the place. It’s a fairly modern city, but at that time it was not.
And, uh, so I was there as one of the officers assigned to that position. My memory says there were four of us, at that point, and I was the fifth one kind of detached. And, um, we just bought all the goods and services that the U.S. Air Force required in Thailand. And at that time, we had several bases scattered all over Thailand. And we had, um, people working for us—enlisted, uh, men—working for us at each base, also during procurement, but they were doing it as our subordinates for the stuff that had to come really from the local community. But otherwise, uh, we would buy the stuff in Bangkok—things in Bangkok. And this would be stuff—oh, it would be food, it would be entertainment, it would be the gas for the propane heaters, uh.—you name it. We would be buying it in Bangkok.
Um, We lived in a, uh compound, which was very much like a park, that was a little ways away from the, uh—from the office. And, uh, you walked in there and it was a beautiful little park-like area. It was lined with houses, all of which are rented to, uh, foreigners, like ourselves. Either American or Australian or somebody else, or the, uh, members of the diplomatic corps. And at the front of the—of the property, there was a very old, interesting Thai gentleman, and at the back of the property was his son and his family. And the fellow at the front—named [Mom Rajawongse] Seni Pramoj.
Scherer
Seni Pramoj? [laughs].
McGuire
Seni Pramoj. Now Seni Pramoj is rather important in Thai-American relations. In World War II, the Japanese moved into Thailand, and Thailand declared war on the United States.
Scherer
I never [inaudible].
McGuire
Seni Pramoj was the ambassador in Washington, D.C. He refused to deliver the declaration of war. United States chose to ignore it. When WWII ended, the United States chose—says, “Thailand was not an enemy combatant. They were an occupied country.” Other Allies had different opinions, and there’s[sic] arguments about it. And so the United States agreed, “Okay. We would take a little, tiny bit of reparations. We ‘ll take one house.” And it became the residence of the American Ambassador.
Scherer
That’s a fascinating story.
McGuire
Seni Pramoj later was president of Thailand…
Scherer
Oh, really?
McGuire
At one time or another.[3]
Scherer
Oh.
McGuire
But at the time we met him, he is the landlord, sitting up at the front of the compound.
Scherer
Oh[?].
McGuire
And we didn’t see him very often, but we did—knew who he was. But, um…
Scherer
I thought you were going to say he was the watchman. You know, because [inaudible].
McGuire
No. We figured that the—there was very little obvious security in that compound. There was no real guard at the gate or noth—but there were gardeners all over the place, and we figured they were all Thai CID [Criminal Investigator's Department].
Scherer
[laughs]Well, one of them was very important.
McGuire
And, uh…
Scherer
And I—I think that’s a story that is well worth recording, because it shows how a war was, uh—was, um, avoided by simple, you know…
McGuire
Yeah, um…
Scherer
Simple contacts.
McGuire
So, America has been—had a treaty of friendship with Thailand since 1835, or something like that. It was the first one we signed with anybody in Asia.
Scherer
Oh, that’s interesting. [inaudible].
McGuire
‘Course, at that time, I think Thailand was probably about the only independent Asian country that we could get into. Japan was closed. China was, uh, occupied by several people. The—the British had Burma[4] and Malaya, And Dutch had Indonesia, and the French had Cambodia and Vietnam. And Thailand was in the middle. And we signed a treaty of friendship with those folks.
Scherer
Yeah.
McGuire
which I think has paid off very handsomely for us.
Scherer
Too bad it’s so unique.
McGuire
And it’s very unique.
Scherer
Yeah.
McGuire
During the, um, Vietnam War, Thailand actively participated in the war. And Thailand provided us with access to their facilities, and that’s the only time they have ever done that for anybody that’s not Thai.
Scherer
Yes[?]. [inaudible].
McGuire
So, um, [inaudible].
Scherer
I wish—wish they had done the same thing in Vietnam.
McGuire
Well…
Scherer
You know, after [Ngô Đình] Diệm [inaudible]. But I’m supposed to ask you questions, and you answer at length
McGuire
Yeah. So…
Scherer
And I ask very short questions, but you’re asking at length very well [laughs].
McGuire
One of the…
Scherer
So I don’t have to ask you many questions.
McGuire
One of the jobs I had, while I was there in Thailand, was to be the Contract Administrator for the Thai security guard contract. We employed…
Scherer
That sounds like a Chinese title. It’s so long.
McGuire
Almost.
Scherer
Can you say it again?
McGuire
Thai security guard contract. To be the contract administrator. We had a contract, and it was written as a regular Air Force Procurement contract, between ourselves and the [Thai] Ministry of Defense, whereby they provided, uh, Thai military reserves to act as the security guards for all of our forces—our locations, rather—all over the country of Thailand.
Scherer
Interesting.
McGuire
Every little—every U.S…
Scherer
[inaudible].
McGuire
Space. Now, some of those were big. They’re big air bases. There’re lots of people. And some of them were little tiny listening posts…
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
Out in the jungle…
Scherer
Wow.
McGuire
With maybe one or two Americans—well, usually more than that—maybe four Americans, and four or five Thai security guardsman to take care of them, to keep them safe, and literally keep the tigers from coming into the, uh…
Scherer
[inaudible].
McGuire
Into the post.
Scherer
Mmhmm. That’s unusual.
McGuire
Yeah, and part of my duties were[sic] to go and inspect every one of those installations all over that country to make sure people are doing the job right.
Scherer
Well…
McGuire
Which I did.
Scherer
Yes. I’m sure you…
McGuire
Which was a very interesting [inaudible].
Scherer
I’m sure you did it very arduously, but it sounds very interesting.
McGuire
It was. It was very interesting.
Scherer
Yeah.
McGuire
Uh, so where do we go next?
Scherer
I want to ask you if you, in all—in all these different places you’ve been, if you met any characters that stay—stayed in your mind as being particularly interesting, either, you know, um, good, bad, or eccentric, or whatever?
McGuire
Hm. Strange…
Scherer
Because your experiences are so different from other people’s in the military.
McGuire
Yeah.
Scherer
Usually[?], they’re in a unit, or they’re on some ship, and so on. But you were all over the place with all kinds of people, from the important ones to the not-so important ones.
McGuire
Yeah, but some of them were just ordinary folk. Uh, like[?] I was. [inaudible].
Scherer
But you had to find people who spoke English, I presume.
McGuire
Yes. And in most of the world, you can get by on English.
Scherer
That’s true.
McGuire
Most educated Thais could speak some English.
Scherer
Mmhmm.
McGuire
The, uh, officers on the Thai side, with whom I interfaced—one was an Admiral, the other was an Army Major, uh—spoke—spoke beautiful English.
Scherer
Yes[?].
McGuire
Um…
Scherer
That was—your stories are so interesting.
McGuire
That…
Scherer
Can you tell another story that—of interest…
McGuire
From that…
Scherer
[inaudible].
McGuire
Well, there is one other one of interest from that. I went to one of the bases, and the, uh—the guardsmen work on the base. They work for the American, uh, military police chief, whoever he is. And so, I was talking to him one day, and he was telling me about a young airman who wanted to get married. Now, before a serviceman can get married overseas, especially in a warzone, his, uh, bride has to be vetted through the American Embassy.
Scherer
Mmhmm.
McGuire
And most Americans, when they look at a Thai woman, cannot tell how old she is…
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
Until she is elderly, and then it’s obvious that she’s elderly. But as long as she is fairly young up through middle age, you’ve got no idea how old she is, when you look at her.
So there was this, uh, one young fellow, who wanted to get married and this—this is, um—now, this is 1974 time period—to, uh, his Thai honey. And when they started checking on her, they found out that she had been a prostitute for the Japanese forces, when the Japanese had occupied this particular base 30 years earlier.
Unidentified
[laughs].
Scherer
Very interesting turnaround[?].
Unidentified
[laughs].
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
[laughs] So our 18 year old—18 year old…
Scherer
Yeah.
McGuire
American G.I. couldn’t tell she was probably 45.
All
[laughs].
Scherer
Interesting. That’s interesting story.
McGuire
Yeah.
Scherer
Do you have friends around the world that you made at that time?
McGuire
We did have for a long time, but then, um, over the years…
Scherer
Yeah.
McGuire
They’re gone. The Admiral that[sic], uh, had been in charge from the Thai side—I kept in touch with for a long time, but then he died.
Scherer
I’m not supposed to add anything to this, but I have to say that a prostitute who was a prostitute for the Japanese was[?]—was, uh—was quite often recruited and kept as a slave for soldiers.
McGuire
Oh, more than likely.
Scherer
What did they call them? There’s a name for them. But anyway…
McGuire
Uh, comfort girls.
Scherer
Comfort girls.
McGuire
Or comfort women, rather.
Scherer
She—that could have happened to her. I mean, but still, she was old.
McGuire
It might have been.
Scherer
[inaudible].
McGuire
But the point of the story wasn’t so much that she’d been a prostitute.
Scherer
That she was old.
McGuire
It was that she was at least 45 years old…
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
And our 18 year old airman couldn’t tell.
Scherer
[laughs] That would’ve been an interesting—or a—have made a rather easy decision for the superior to make [laughs].
McGuire
Yes. I don’t think she got her clearance.
Scherer
[laughs] So do you—yeah. Do you keep in touch with anyone that[sic] was posted in those places with you?
McGuire
No. By now, I have lost—well, with all, except one. I still keep in touch with the man I worked for when I was in Japan.
Scherer
Oh, yes.
McGuire
But, uh…
Scherer
[inaudible].
McGuire
The rest of them, time has gone by.
Scherer
Tell us about more colorful characters you’ve met.
McGuire
ike, I don’t, uh—Well, one of the most colorful characters was a fellow out there when I was a Thailand—American officer, who had lost the, um, first two joints of[?] one of his fingers, through some kind of accident. He cut it off with a saw or something. It wasn’t—it wasn’t particularly interesting. But the thing was he only had that much. Now in Thailand, you bargained at that time. You bargain for everything, and—but the currency is baht. So we would go and we would say, “Four baht,” and “Five baht,” “Ten baht.” whatever. Well, he could bargain in half baht.
Unidentified
[laughs].
Scherer
[laughs] I see why you remember him.
McGuire
That’s my main memory of him, is he could bargain in half bahts.
Scherer
I’m going to ask you a two-step question. Number one: did you ever keep a diary or make notes of what you were doing? Um…
McGuire
No.
Scherer
Oh, that’s [inaudible]—that’s more or less the answer then. Because, uh, it would be interesting, and you probably would have forgotten by now some of the things. Some of the [inaudible].
McGuire
Oh, I’m sure I’ve forgotten probably most of it by now.
Scherer
Yeah.
McGuire
But no. I did—never kept any diary. I got movies and slides and stuff like that, but…
Scherer
So what about your family, that were in the states whilst you were doing all this? Did you keep in touch with them fairly well?
McGuire
Well, my family was with me.
Scherer
No. Not your immediate family. I mean, your…
McGuire
Oh.
Scherer
Parents and siblings[?].
McGuire
My parents, and my brothers and sisters and siblings?
Scherer
Yeah.
McGuire
Oh, yeah.
Scherer
Yeah.
McGuire
I still do keep in touch with them.
Scherer
Yeah.
McGuire
Now, my parents are long gone, but yeah. My brothers and sisters and I still keep in touch.
Scherer
Well, of course, we didn’t have email or anything, so what did you do? Write to them?
McGuire
Yeah. We write—wrote letters. And every time you circulated that through the country, you would, um, go and see people. Um, yeah. My wife’s, uh, parents lived in War—in Warsaw, Missouri, which, uh, is kind of south and west of Kansas City[, Missouri]—a couple hundred miles out in the country at the head waters of the Lake of the Ozarks in the Missouri countryside—hill towns. And it was amazing how Warsaw became on the way to everything.
Scherer
Oh [laughs]. Via Warsaw [laughs].
McGuire
Yeah. It didn’t matter where we were going.
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
It was always by way of Warsaw…
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
Missouri. It could have been—it was Washing—Florida to Washington, D.C., is by way of Warsaw, Missouri. Uh…
Scherer
[laughs] Oh, that’s good.
McGuire
Seattle to Alabama for Squadron Officer School is by way of Warsaw, of course. That’s not too bad.
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
But, uh, everything was by way of Warsaw.
Scherer
Wow[?]. That’s funny.
McGuire
And then…
Scherer
Does your wife like traveling?
McGuire
Did she—yeah. She did.
Scherer
Oh, I [inaudible].
McGuire
She’s now passed, but, uh, yeah.
Scherer
Oh, I’m sorry.
McGuire
She did.
Scherer
I didn’t know. Um…
McGuire
Yeah.
Scherer
Well, you’ve had a very interesting life.
McGuire
Yeah, ‘cause that particular—That first wife died about six years ago, but then she sent along a replacement, who ordered me up off of Match.com as her souvenir of her visit to America—the United States. And, uh, she’s Thai.
Scherer
Oh, really?
Scherer
Well, how is your Thai? [laughs].
McGuire
My Thai is good enough…
Scherer
[inaudible] mai tai [laughs].
McGuire
My Thai—Yeah. I can order one of those. Um…
Scherer
Mai tai [inaudible] [laughs].
McGuire
My Thai is probably good enough to tell you “Hello” and “Goodbye.”
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
All of which is the same word: sà-wàt-dee. And to ask, “Hông náam yòo têe năi?” “Where’s the toilet?” in Thai.
Scherer
[laughs] Good one[?]. Good phrase [laughs].
McGuire
And I could say thank you: kòp kun mâak. And that’s about it. Uh, fortunately…
Scherer
[inaudible] If you were in procurement, people must have been saying, “Thank you” to you often.
McGuire
Oh, they were.
Scherer
Okay[?]. Were you bribed at any time? Or tempted to be bribed?
McGuire
No. No. Though, uh, some people had trouble with the U.S. standards on that. And in one particular instance in Thailand, uh, the contractors just could not understand when we said, “No. We cannot take anything.” So one Thanksgiving or Christmas or something, they showed up with a lot of turkeys and stuff. “No. we cannot take it.” “But I can’t take it.” “Well, okay.” we gave it to the orphanage.
Scherer
Oh, that was a good idea.
McGuire
But no.
Scherer
You must have come across a lot of interesting situations like that. That’s a—that’s…
McGuire
We came across a lot of things that were cultural differences.
Scherer
Yes, but I mean in the actual process of what you were doing. First of all, you had to find out who to start with to ask for what you needed. And then you had to choose between them.
McGuire
You had to choose between—yes. You have to define what you need. You have to find the people that can fill your need. And then you have to make a choice as to which one is going to fill it, and you have to pay attention to a whole long list of social things, as to which person can have this particular contract. Um…
Scherer
So you had to do a lot of hard work?
McGuire
Yeah. Yeah. Well, this is all goes with part of the job.
Scherer
The job. Yeah.
McGuire
Government procurement and commercial are not the same.
Scherer
Oh.
McGuire
And the big difference is the rules that, uh, the government person has to follow. And people that[sic] I was—when I was teaching at OSI, one of their frequently raised complaints was: “Well, it would be so much cheaper if we did this, or if we did it that way.” And I would have to explain to them that the, um, military procurement regulations, which fill a space like this, were not designed for the efficient and economic acquisition of goods and services for the military. They were designed to fill the social aims of Congress first. And after you fill the social aims of Congress, then we do things to make sure we get stuff.
But we have things like—you have Buy American Act [of 1933]. You have a, um, law that governs the amount of money that must be paid to the contractors on the job, which often is very different than the local prevailing wages. You have to procure from minority-owned businesses. You want to procure from women- owned businesses.
Scherer
They did that then? Back that far?
McGuire
Oh, yeah. They’ve done this for a long time. And it goes on and on and on. On certain type of business would be set aside, to be filled by only people who meet these social constraints. Whatever they were.
Scherer
Yeah.
McGuire
To fill the social aims of Congress. Um, I [inaudible]…
Scherer
Tell me what was your biggest disappointment during this time?
McGuire
Uh…
Scherer
Something…
McGuire
I can’t think of one at the moment.
Scherer
Go wrong after you went half way into it, or something like that?
McGuire
Pardon?
Scherer
Did anything go wrong after you went half way into it?
McGuire
No. The only interesting thing was I never intended to stay there.
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
I intended to do my first tour of duty, and then get out.
Scherer
Yes.
McGuire
But by the time that, uh, point came up, Air Force requirement is four years of service after commissioning. And the point I had four years of service, and I had three little children. And I knew I needed a Master’s Degree, and there wasn’t any way that I was going to be able to support four little children and a wife and go get a Master’s Degree on my own. And the Air Force says, “We will send you to, uh, George Washington University for your MBA [Master’s of Business Administration], if you would like. All you have to accept is an extended service commitment of three times the length of that year and a half of school.” And then every time I did that, or I got promoted, or I got sent somewhere, there was always a service commitment attached to it. It wasn’t until I had 18 years of service in, that I could’ve get out if I wanted to. At that point, I stopped accepting any offers for anything that had a commitment on it.
Scherer
I see. That’s understandable. And I think you [inaudible]…
McGuire
But by then, I was at Rock Island Arsenal in Illinois.
Scherer
I think—I think you’ve your judgments in order.
McGuire
Hm.
Scherer
Because I—I admire what you put first[?].
McGuire
[laughs].
Scherer
But you certainly had an intering—interesting career.
McGuire
Yeah.
Scherer
Tell me about something that—funny that happened whence you—when—when you were in one of these places.
McGuire
Well, alright. Well, uh, the one we were talking about at lunchtime. Military people on active duty, and as a retiree, are entitled to fly space available on military aircraft from one point to another. ‘Course you have last priority.
So we were in Japan, and my wife wanted to go to [South] Korea, which there were frequent flights between Yokota Air Base in Japan and Osan Air Base in Korea. So we went over to Korea, and on the way over we rode on a chartered airliner. And this just like riding in any other airliner, except this one is under charter with the [U.S.] DOD [Department of Defense].
And we went shopping in Seoul[, Gyeonggi-do, South Korea]. She bought all kinds of stuff. We got back down to Osan Air Base with the—almost a pick-up truck full of, um, things that she wanted to take, and found out there was no space available going back to Japan. There were lots of people like us and no space going back. And furthermore, there were no hotel rooms available in this little town outside Osan to spend the night.
So I called up my friend, who was the OSI boss in Osan, because this was shortly after my—my OSI tour, so I still knew the people. And he called around, and he called me back, and says, “Okay. Go down to this hotel,” [clears throat] “and they’ll take care of you and put you up for the night.” We did. And the next morning, I informed her that she had just spent the night in a whorehouse.
All
[laughs].
Scherer
And how…
McGuire
That’s what it was.
Scherer
And how did you get back? [inaudible].
McGuire
So we went back to the base to wait along with all of these other people, and the, uh, wing at Yokota sent a training flight over to Osan. The Air Force flies training flights all the time. They have to. To train the people. Keep their skills up. So they said, “Okay. Well, we got all these people waiting over there. We’ll send this flight over today to Osan to, uh—to pick these folks up.” And they did, in a [Lockheed] C-130 [Hercules]. The C-130 is a flying truck. You sit in the back end of this, and it’s like sitting in the back end of a big truck, on a canvas seat with very little in the way of heat or any sort of comforts whatsoever. So we all filed in there, put all of our luggage in there in front of us, and then…
Scherer
In front of you?
McGuire
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is a…
Scherer
All down the middle of the plane?
McGuire
Down the middle. This is the bay of a cargo airplane. This is not an airliner.
Scherer
Oh.
McGuire
You—you’ve seen pictures though
Scherer
Yeah.
McGuire
Now, they’re—they’re…
Scherer
In the movies.
McGuire
There—they’re about as—about like sitting in the back of a dump truck. Now, you load over the rear of that airplane. That’s how its tailgate goes down. And they can drive tanks, and trucks…
Scherer
Oh, I’ve seen
McGuire
And things like that. So everybody’s in there. We’re all sitting down, and the loadmaster goes to life the tailgate, and it won’t shut. Can’t get the door of the airplane shut.
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
So he takes a piece of wire, wraps it around the door, holds it in place…
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
Take off to go back to Japan.
Scherer
All wired up [laughs].
McGuire
And my brother-in-law, who is a—at that time, a paratrooper in the Army—uh, standard joke people ask him, “Why would you want to jump out of a perfectly good airplane?” And his answer is “Because the Air Force doesn’t have any.”
Scherer
[laughs] Oh, really?
McGuire
This was…
Scherer
Very interesting.
McGuire
A perfectly good airplane by Air Force standards. You could wire the door shut and fly.
Scherer
Is there anything else you would like to tell us before we end?
McGuire
Oh, I guess that’s probably about it.
Scherer
Well, you’ve been an easy person, because I was supposed to tell you at the beginning, that this is for you to tell your stories, and I’m just…
McGuire
Okay[?].
Scherer
Just there to ask the questions. But it was, uh—I didn’t have to do that, because you had so many stories, and you told them so well, and it was really interesting, and I’m sure everyone who reads veterans’ stories will like this story.
McGuire
If we’ve got time for one more quick[sic] one…
Scherer
Yes. We do.
McGuire
This is a funny one—to me, a funny one. Seattle is bordered on the eastern side of the city by a 20-mile long fresh water lake called Lake Washington. And One particular day, one of my friends up[?] there and I decided to check out some sailboats, because we had a—a sailboat, rather—as the Navy base had sailboats, and do sailing on Lake Washington. And we did. And we promptly knocked the sailboat down.
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
And we got it back up, and then we promptly knocked it down again. Now, the big lesson that I learned about doing that was that a can of beer, if it has not been opened, will float.
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
Because the beer we had, we can’t—that hadn’t been opened yet—all of it just floated every time we knocked the sailboat over, and so we got it back up, and we got out beer back on board.
Scherer
Oh, really? That’s interesting. Is it because there’s air in the can?
McGuire
Sure.
Scherer
Or because there’s not very much in it? [laughs].
McGuire
There’s air in the can, and a can of beer is sealed. It can’t get out, and it floats. And I…
Scherer
[inaudible].
McGuire
Didn’t know until then that a can of beer will float.
Scherer
Is there anything else you’d like to tell us…
McGuire
No.
Scherer
We conclude?
McGuire
Now that I’m thinking about it, I could go all afternoon.
Scherer
Yes[?]. Well, you were the easiest person to interview, I must say. Um, let’s see there was something I wanted to say to you, as well. Well, we—we thank you very much for being part of this program,
McGuire
Sure.
Scherer
And, um, I certainly enjoyed listening to your story, so I think you’ll be a great contributor. And…
McGuire
I hope so.
Scherer
So thank you very much.
McGuire
You’re welcome.
Scherer
Good luck.
McGuire
Thank you.