McLaughlin
Alright, today is Wednesday, the 24th of October, 2012. It is 3:05 PM. I am with Dr. Storm [Leslie] Richards at his home in Geneva, Florida, and we’re going to discuss his experiences as related to historic preservation in Sanford, specifically concerning the Sanford Student Museum [and Center for the Social Studies].
Richards
We moved to Sanford in 1953. My dad was in, uh, the Navy at the time, and, um, we came here, uh, when Sanford was a very small community. It was very agriculturally-oriented. Um, there were many, many schools in Sanford. Uh, I went to, uh, about four of them, uh, from about elementary school through high school—all in Sanford, and then I went to Seminole Community College,[1] which was what it was called at the time in the 1970s, uh, and got my Associate of Arts degree, and went on to the University of Florida and finished my Bachelor’s, Master’s, and Doctorate at, uh, the University of Florida in Gainesville. Um, did some graduate work at Tulane University, but, uh, for the most part, I was always at the University of Florida, and I had a very strong interest in historic preservation and archaeology and, uh, urban—urban development, and I think, uh, first time that I really became—became directly, um, associated with the school [inaudible] was I was asked to help write a grant. Um, he grant was originally through the Division of Historical Resources, which is part of Florida Department of State for doing architectural reconstruction and rehabilitation. Um, one of the things that came to me from the very, very beginning was that the school—the [Sanford] Grammar School was such a tremendous resource in terms of historically where[?] Sanford had been. It was constructed in 1907, I think—’02-’07, and, um, it had always been a real focal point for—for education for—for young kids, and I think, uh—I didn’t go to school there and—and I always remember the school having, uh, teeter-totters and having, um, jungle gyms and the having the maypole, uh, swing that the kids would swing around and stuff like that. It’s—it’s the kind of thing where you still remember the kids yelling and screaming, and just, uh, it was a very fun place. Um, academically, I can’t really speak for it, but, uh, I can remember that—that there was always a lot of activity there, and the school, uh, that I identified with the grant that I worked on was a very important hub for Sanford and for Seminole County to—to look at something historic and say that so many people had gone there and so many people’s lives had been involved. I just thought it was a wonderful focal point, um, to try to keep, and, uh, at that time, they were really the first time that they were getting into the notion of it being an historic properties, and being important for a museum, and—and I was just really, uh, excited about that for the kids to be able to go back and look at things the way they were a hundred years ago.
McLaughlin
All right. Um, in what capacity were you involved, specifically with the grant-writing process?
Richards
Um, because I was—I am a certified archaeologist, and I have a really strong background in historic preservation with the University of Florida and the Urban Re-Use and Planning Department, I was asked to—to come in and take a critical look at if the site was really historic. Now, it had already been designated on the [U.S.] National Register of Historic Places, which one would assume would make it very important, uh, but because it’s part of a district, um, that’s not necessarily the case, and you really want a building like that to stand on its own, be—because the importance not of just the neighborhood, but the importance of it being, uh, the structure that was there, uh, and so I put together, uh, all of the documentation on, uh, why it was historically important, and what it meant to the community, and why the state should look at it as being not just some local landmark, but as something that was important to the county and the State of Florida.
So I wrote that up, and what really ended up happening was that the state looked at that and felt that there was enough merit there that it was designated on a, uh, state list of very important, uh, uh, schools for the State of Florida and it was designated as such with that important notice. I think that the other thing that I did was, uh, I contacted a number of commissioners and a number of people that had on a say on, uh—on how money was being spent, whether it was the school board of, uh, Seminole County, because it was certainly a focus of not just the City of Sanford, but the county also, uh, and told them the importance of preserving that, because at a certain point, older buildings have a way of just deteriorating to the point that they can no longer be used, and it takes an investment, and sometimes, that investment can actually cost more than—than new construction, you know? Rehabilitation’s a very expensive proposition, but what it does for a community, in terms of identifying the importance of a city, and importance of schools, and importance of looking at the people who got an education there and what they went on to do, and is—and it is far more important than any single dollar value.
McLaughlin
Right, I see. About how long did that process take from start to finish? From the beginning to the end[?]? [laughs].
Richards
It took probably—the grants program probably took six months.
McLaughlin
Hm.
Richards
I think though the writing that I did, because I had a familiarity with it, was probably in days.
McLaughlin
[laughs].
Richards
I’m very quick at what I do, and so I think I wrote the, uh, four- or five-page report of why it was important in—in a day or two days.
McLaughlin
Excellent, and what year was this again?
Richards
You know, I think it was probably about, uh, 10 or 15 years ago. I mean, it was probably in the [19]90s—[inaudible] or something like that.
McLaughlin
So like 90s?
Richards
Yeah.
McLaughlin
Right, and who all—do you remember which people from the museum you worked with?
Richards
Se—Serena [Rankin Parks] Fisher…
McLaughlin
Serena Fisher.
Richards
Uh, she was, you know—and I’ve known her for years and years before that, because she’s a geographer and an educator, and—and I’m a geographer also, and so I knew her from the Florida Alliance, um, which was a group of educators who try to—to convey the importance of educating children, and she was working the museum, and, uh, it was the kind of thing that I felt real honored to help her with, because of the possibility of helping people, and, uh, when you drive by the school even today, which I did,
McLaughlin
[laughs].
Richards
Um, it’s one of those things that you can go look at and be proud that it’s still there, because it could be somebody’s patio brick, you know?
McLaughlin
Yeah.
Richards
And—and so it’s a real good place for kids to go and look at the way that things used to be.
McLaughlin
Excellent, and were there any other instances in Sanford, in which you helped with local preservation efforts?
Richards
Um, yes. Uh, the Hopper Academy, which was the African-American school, h, over near the stadium. Uh, I put together the environmental assessment and some of the feasibility studies for—for looking at the rehabbing of that and making that, uh, another focal point, and because it was a wooden building and it had a lot of decay, it was really difficult, and the neighborhood, uh, didn’t lend itself to, you know—there were a lot of transients in the area, and people were sleeping near—in the school, and people were doing a lot of things that were just destructive. I’m not sure that worked out as well as I would have liked, but it was a real, eh, effort for someone to go over there and say, “We’d like to see, you know this—this kept for the community,” and so I worked on that, and, um, also, when I was the senior planner with Seminole County and worked, um, on comprehensive planning, I—I worked very hard to try to get a conservation element that reflected the importance of archaeological and historic sites, um, in—in Central Florida and Seminole County.
In—in the profession that I have now, we do an awful lot of work in Seminole County. Uh, we worked for the airport in Seminole—the Orlando-Sanford [International] Airport. We’ve identified historic sites and identified preservation, uh, concepts for them. [inaudible]. We’ve worked for the Division of Historic Resources on the railroad sites[?] that existed here that came from the 1900s, when they were shipping an awful lot of, uh, produce out throughout—throughout the state and throughout different parts of the country, and so I’ve, you know, worked a lot on different aspects on Seminole County on—on cultural[?] resource assessments and evaluations, uh, both historic and archaeological resources for the county, and provided information for the of State of Florida.
McLaughlin
Excellent, and here’s a little bit of a different question. In your experience working in Seminole County and living here and growing up, how has it changed environmentally? You—what do you think are probably the biggest ways that it’s changed?
Richards
You know, I think—the—the interesting part of that story—and it just hits me immediately—is how recently—this year, someone burnt down the big.[2] They got inside the tree and they lit it on fire, and you have a tree that is older than the for—the 1400s. Before [Christopher] Columbus and…
McLaughlin
Wow.
Richards
This country.
McLaughlin
[laughs].
Richards
And the tree was there, and they burnt it up and destroyed it, and it was considered an “accident,” and it was considered of no great significance, and I can remember riding my bike out to the tree when I was a child from Sanford. It’s—it’s probably halfway between Sanford and Longwood on [U.S. Route] 17-92. Uh, I can remember there was a wonderful book written by [Elvira] Gardner, it was called Ezekiel’s Travels.
McLaughlin
Mmhmm.
Richards
And—and Ezekiel, a little black boy, rode his bicycle out to the big tree and they documented that in the 1930s.
McLaughlin
Wow.
Richards
You know, and—and—and they burnt this tree up and it was considered just kind of a…
McLaughlin
An accident.
Richards
An accident. So, uh—and I think that—it really has an impact, you know?
McLaughlin
Yeah.
Richards
The—the other thing that I can remember that’s changed so much is, when I was, uh, very young, I used to ride my bike down to the—the band shell, and to the, uh—to Lake Monroe, and used to fish there, and there used to be just the band shell, and just the sea wall, and in the last 25 years, you know, they’ve built, uh—they built hotels there, and, uh, they built, uh, mixed used development there. They have had varying degrees of non-success.
McLaughlin
[laughs].
Richards
Uh, but it’s taken away much of the character, you know? I can remember when the zoo was in Downtown Sanford, and, you know, it was a very small zoo. Sorta not like the really nice complex that they have now, but—but Sanford was [inaudible], you know—libraries were there, and it was a place that—that kids went, and young people went, and it was just very different. The [Sanford] Civic Center was a big, big deal, and they had dances every week, and it was just, you know—it was just a place that people went all the time, and, uh, I don’t see that in Sanford anymore. I don’t see that.
McLaughlin
You think some of the character is gone?
Richards
I think—I think the character—and I think that, you know, its—its, um—its environment, and its, um—the neighborhood, and it’s, um—it’s just the changes that have taken place, you know? I can remember the parades in Downtown Park Avenue, and just, um, very large parades that everybody in the community got involved in, and we have something like that now, but [inaudible]—it’s just a, uh—an agglomeration of people with big bands, and—and crazy things happen from early afternoon to way late
McLaughlin
[laughs].
Richards
[inaudible], and it’s just not something that I’m interested in participating in, you know? Probably there are a lot of people that do, but it’s—it’s just very different from when I was raised in Sanford.
McLaughlin
Yeah. As far as developmentally, what effect do you think that the arrival of like Disney Corporation[3] and things like that had on the change, if any?
Richards
Yeah, eh, Disney is a very large beast.
McLaughlin
[laughs].
Richards
And it has a lot of beasts that, uh, have attracted to it—whether it’s the whale beast or the, you know, uh, any number of other international destinations that I think that it’s affected probably not just all of Florida, but the Southeast. It’s the number one tourist destination, you know, in the world, u, and I think it makes Interstate [Highway] 4, which used to be a wonderful opportunity to go to Orlando and you just got on the interstate and ten minutes later, you were in Orlando, and today, it’s, um—it’s questionable if it even functions at all.
McLaughlin
[laughs].
Richards
You know, we have a—we have a toll road system, in which, uh, I was assigned to that. I was Deputy Director of the toll way [inaudible] before they actually started developing it, and it was supposed to relieve the traffic and make traffic a lot different in Central Florida, but Central Florida is so densely populated that it was probably nothing can significantly change that. You know, whether it’s a rail system that they won’t put in, it will cost billions of dollars, whether it’s increasing lanes on I-4, or whether the [Central Florida] GreeneWay builds out. It’s—it’s not going to make the quality of life significantly different, in my opinion, you know, but that’s just part of the price you pay.
McLaughlin
Yeah. Just out of curiosity, how many lanes did I-4 use to be? [laughs].
Richards
You know, I think it was always six—divided six.
McLaughlin
Divided six?
Richards
Yeah, um, eh, it—it had fewer ramps.
McLaughlin
Mmhmm.
Richards
And so they put in more ramps and more access, and it’s—it’s—the speed is much quicker today than it’s ever been. Uh, the Fairbanks [Avenue] curb is a problem that people have been having for years, and everybody’s looking at the engineering and saying, “It’s got to be engineering.” They say, “It’s got to be, you know, your problems,” you know? People are traveling between their ears if they don’t pay attention to traffic, and that’s why we gotta have people at such a quick pace today, you know? It used to be if you made it to work at 8- 8:30, you know, or if you, you know, were just there. Now, everybody fills the building up at 10-to-8, and, you know, so consequently, everybody gets on the interstate and it’s as fast as they can go, and it reminds me a little bit of Atlanta[, Georgia].
McLaughlin
Yeah.
Richards
You know, if you’re not doing 80 [miles per hour], you’re not getting there.
McLaughlin
[laughs].
Richards
I think that the—I think that I-4 is quickly approaching that. If you’re not doing 70, you’re probably not going to make it.
McLaughlin
Yeah.
Richards
You know, that’s just part of reality, part of the [inaudible], and the—the—it’s the quickness of what happens today. It wasn’t like that in the, you know, 1960s.
McLaughlin
Okay, before we go, if you could—would you like to share the story about your father
Richards
Uh…
McLaughlin
And what he did at the Navy base?
Richards
We moved to Sanford in—in ’53. My dad was stationed in Jacksonville, um, before that in the, um—in the Navy, and—and when we moved here, my dad was a navigator bombardier and a mechanic, and when the first jets, which were the [Douglas] A-3D[ Skywarrior]s came from California, my dad was part of the crew that flew the jets from California to Florida. That was before the [North American A-5] Vigilantes, before the larger aircraft. These were, you know twin-engine jets, but their total design and their total purpose was, uh, to launch a, uh, nuclear strike, and—and art of what Sanford, you know—Orlando-Sanford Airport today has the bunkers that they kept the nuclear weapons in, and they were going to load onboard the A-3Ds and—and go to Cuba, and my dad was the slim pickins’ of the aircraft, because it was his job to arm the nuclear weapons—To go back in the bomb bays and arm the nuclear weapons with, uh, I guess a detonation device that you screwed in the—in the nose of the bomb, and that was his job. It—and it was very, very stressful, and you know, at the time, I can just barely remember—I guess I was probably about seven—six or seven years old that all these young kids from the Navy would come over to the house, and they would have parties and stuff, and—and what they were doing was, h, the vanguard of changing the world, if—if they had to, and they all agreed to that—that that’s what they were going to do, and my dad was a really big part of that, and I guess there’s—there’s some pride in that, but there’s also some looking back and saying, “Is this really where we were?”
You know, and [inaudible], and I know today—you know, 2012—we’re still talking about the Cuban Missile Crisis and trying to figure out what really happened, and when you think about the people that were going to do whatever they were told to do, you know, there’s a lot of frighteningness[sic] there, and there is a lot of, Have we gone that far? Or, Are we still in the same place? I kinda think about that occasionally.
McLaughlin
Do you have any other thoughts about Sanford or Seminole County or the Student Museum that you would like to share with us before we…
Richards
I think that the Student Museum is, you know—it—it—it—it’s probably a lot bigger than most people really think. It’s—it’s not a matter of postcards and maps and little things that you can touch or handle, but it’s the notion of where we come from and where we’re going, and will people identify those things in 10 years, in 20 years, in 30 years, and say that, uh—that there was something that was very valuable here? It was something that was very important to a lot of people, and I hope we can still see that, and I hope that that’s, uh, a multicultural thing that—that, uh, everybody can look at and say, “This is—this is where we were, and this is where we are, and lot of good things have taken place.”
McLaughlin
Excellent, and once again, my name is Ian McLaughlin, and I’m interviewing Dr. Storm Richards at his home in Geneva, Florida. Today is Wednesday, the 24th of October, 2012.
Kelley
Okay, I’m with Florence [Patchell] O’Connor. Florence was born November 10th, 1931. Florence has been a volunteer at the [UCF] Public History Center since 1996. She started in the 1996-1997 school year, when it was still called the Student Museum [and Center for the Social Studies]. We are conducting this interview for the Public History Center’s History Harvest event and we’ll be hearing about Florence’s experiences as a teacher and volunteer at the Student Museum. Today is October 11th, 2012, we are at the Public History Center in Sanford, Florida, and my name is [Mary] “Katie” Kelley. Okay, Florence. Can you tell me a little bit about yourself, um—about you childhood and your experiences prior to, um, coming to the museum?
O’Connor
About my childhood? I—I can’t remember that far back.
Kelley
[laughs].
O’Connor
But [clears throat] I am a school teacher. I don’t want to say former, ‘cause school teachers never die, I guess. Uh, I was in Pennsylvania teaching, and then when I was 29, I married my husband and moved to New Jersey. I was able to acquire two children through the marriage, so I did not keep teaching, but I stayed home to raise them and to raise the other three children that came along. However, I did do some substitute work at that time in New Jersey. Uh, we moved to Florida in 2000—no, we didn’t—in 19—uh, boo boo, right? 1991 and again we—our children were all gone by then, but we were co-parenting three grandchildren. So I was not able to go back to teaching right away, but by 1996, I was able to think about coming back, and you might be interested—I have, uh, notes here.
You might be interested to know that the way I got to the museum was—there was an article in the newspaper and they were asking for docents, uh—people who would like to teach in the museum. My husband and I drove over. There was no one outside. He said, “My, this is a very busy place,” but I did go in, and, uh Serena [Rankin Parks] Fisher, who was the director at that time—[clears throat] pardon me [clears throat]—took me around the building and told me about the different rooms. We had no Geography [Lab: Where in the World Are We?] room at that time, or the [American] Ingenuity room. They were not open as far—as I recall. I like to joke that I always wanted to work in Williamsburg[, Pennsylvania], and to be one of those people there in one of the buildings. However, this, to me, was a poor man’s Williamsburg. I was able to dress up and, um, be, um, an active teacher in the different rooms.
Kelley Can you tell me a little bit about what it was like when you first started volunteering at the museum?
O’Connor
Okay, when I first started, I truly did more in the Native American [Exhibit: Life in an Ancient Timucuan Village] room. For some reason, I leaned toward that room. I would do the others every once and a while, but, uh, that was my one I really liked the best, and then, I tried the [Turn of the Century] Classroom[: Lessons from 1902], and again, in the classroom you were wearing the costume of the day—of 1990—of 1902, where you would have a black skirt and a white blouse and you carried your hanky, ‘cause that’s what they did in those days, and you were very strict. Uh, [clears throat] Pardon me. Uh, I had fun. I wasn’t as strict as I am now, when I first started, it—it sort of eroded that I became more strict, and one of the things that I do make them do is to sit outside of the room and we discuss the fact that in 1902, children had to sit straight, had to sit with their hands folded, their feet flat on the floor, and put their hand up if they want to participate and talk to me [laughs].
Kelley
Um, why did you decide to become involved, um—uh, you talked a little bit about this, but what—what was it about the fact—it was the poor man’s Williamsburg that made you want to volunteer?
O’Connor
Well, the thing is, as I say, “School teachers never die. They just sort of fade away,” and, uh, I wanted something extra to do. My grandchildren had moved on—back to with their mom—well, their mom was with us, but she remarried and they moved on, and I had really nothing to do. I was subbing—at that time, I was subbing at Wilson School, and I would keep Thursday open to come to the museum. That was my day. I did not take any substituting jobs on that day, because I was depended on here at the museum.
Kelley
Can you describe what your typical day, uh, at the Student Museum has been like, or at the Public History Center has been like?
O’Connor
I sure can. Okay, at the museum, what I would do when the children came in—again, it would depend if I was substituting or if I was just a docent.—when I substituted, I would do the, uh, verbal reading outside, and then we go upstairs and we talk a little more, and then we would go into a 45-minute class each time, and, uh, as I said before, they would start out in the hallway, and then I would take them in and they were not allowed to speak, and it was really cute to see that they really took on the character of the children in, uh, 1902, and then while I’m in the room—I think that’s part of this question you, uh—I would have them look around the room to see what was different from their classroom and what was different here at the museum.
Kelley
Um…
O’Connor
[laughs].
Kelley
Do—do you have any—I mean, what else did you do when you, um—did you just teach or did you assist with lunch and that kind of thing? Or…
O’Connor
Oh, with the children? Well, they would have two classes in the morning and then they would break for lunch, and again, it would depend on whether I was just a docent or a volunteer or in charge, because at lunch time, when we went upstairs, the director of the museum or the person in charge would talk about 1902 lunches and how they would not eat up there, because that was the auditorium, and then we also would show them, um, a box of animal crackers, which was first started—made in 1903, and why did it look the way it did, and the reason was the string was put on it to use to hang on the tree. It was a Christmas ornament. So they ate the cookies, they hung ‘em on the tree—the box—and then the box itself became a toy for them, and we shared all that and again, about their lunches with their bottles of soda and their water, you know? We would go out to the well and we would try to just show them, even at lunch time, the difference between 1902 and now, when they were eating.
Kelley
Um, why was it so—why was it such an important teaching technique for you to show them the differences?
O’Connor
Well, I don’t think children realize how well-off they have things sometimes, and, uh, eh, it was one of those things where, um, they didn’t think about the differences, you know, when they—the flag in the 1902 classroom is a[sic] artifact from 1902, and big and dirty and they never—they would try to guess why it was different, and usually a child would put their hand up, stand up to talk to me, and realize there were fewer stars in the blue field than now, and that was what—and just comparing what they have now and what we had then.
Kelley
What do you think, um—what do you think was the value then for them in—in coming here? When they left, what do you think that the students walked away with?
O’Connor
I meant to look up the sign and I didn’t come in time for it, but we have a sign that says, “Tell me and I forget. Show me and I might remember. Involve me and I will—it will become part of me.” Something like that, and I think that’s the whole thing, by them having hands-on. When we did—when I do the classroom, after they look around and decide different things, um, we would read from a McGuffey reader, again, trying to compare the difference from what their books are to our books now—or, uh, then rather—and, uh, we wrote on slates with the chalk, and I do have a—a funny situation, I guess, that could come in here.
Um, when I do teach the classroom, I always have my hanky, and [inaudible] right before that, I do walk through the classroom with a ruler, and the children would say, “Are you going to hit me?” And I’d look at them and say, “Well, it is 1902, so if you don’t behave…” And, you know, I had the ruler, and then when their hands were folded, I—if a girl had nail polish on, I would hit the desk, and then I’d laugh and say, “I didn’t hit you now, but would you please stand up?” And they would and they’d be scared really, and, um, then I would point out to them—or I would ask them, “Why am I so upset?” Well, they had different answers, but the main answer is nail polish was not invented in 1902, and they would say, “Well, you’re not allowed to wear it in school,” “Children aren’t allowed to wear it.” No, it wasn’t invented, and then I would ask them if they brought their hanky to school, and, uh, of course, they didn’t. So I would blow my nose and put my hanky back in my pocket, and you should have seen the faces like…
Kelley
[laughs].
O’Connor
You know, and I would say, “Well, what do you do?” And their answer was “Well, we use tissues.” So then I would ask them to explain a tissue to me, and basically they’d say it—“It’s paper,” and then I would be shocked and say, “You want me to blow my nose on paper when I have such a nice soft hanky?” And, uh, then I would explain to them that tissues—or Kleenex, whatever—were not made until 1929, and then we’d have a little laugh, because that’s when my husband was invented.
Kelley
[laughs].
O’Connor
And they think that’s funny, but that was the kind of thing—I do have an example and it’s sort of a funny one. I had them sitting like this and I saw nail polish, and it was a little boy that had nail polish on, and I had to continue, ‘cause I’d already told Katie or Mary to stand up, and I said, “Oh my goodness,” and he goes, “I have it on, ‘cause I made a bet with my sister and she said I wouldn’t do it and I’m getting five dollars.” So there again we just had a good laugh, and the children, uh—I asked if it was worth five dollars and some of them said, “No,” and some said it would have been, so that’s—that was that.
Kelley
Do you think you—you’ve been here for quite a long time teaching at the Student Museum. Um, have your experiences changed from the early days until know with either how the students react, or with how you teach, or—what has been the difference?
O’Connor
Okay, there’s[sic] two things—I did make a list last night—you sort of—we sort of fell right into my next thing.
Kelley
[laughs].
O’Connor
I was teaching one day in this classroom, and after the—we were ready to go home, a little girl came up to me and she said, “Well, I liked your classroom, but I didn’t like you,” and I said, “Well, that’s okay, Katie, because I didn’t like you too much either,” and she looked at me and she said, “You can’t say that to me,” and I said, “Well, I just did,” ‘cause she was a little—little—you know, little 2011-type child who was just trying to rule the room, and another thing that I thought was so neat, um—I was the substitute at this time, and, uh, I did welcome the bus that came, and the group comes off with their chaperones and we take them upstairs, and at that time, we were not ringing the bell. The bell has been fixed and it’s wonderful. We can hear the school bell ring, but anyway, we went upstairs and I continued and the mother looked at—called me over, I guess, and she said, uh, “Are you from New Jersey?” And I said, “Yes, ma’am, I am.” Uh, “From Marlton, New Jersey?” And I said, “Yes, ma’am.” Well, here the mother was a child that I had taught—or when she was a child, I had taught here in New Jersey, and her comment was, “When I got off that bus and I saw you—I get the chills— saw you standing there, I couldn’t believe that I saw you again,” and that was a neat experience. I really—it’s a shame to think I didn’t change in those last 10 years, but, uh, she did remember me, and she lived right up the street from me. In fact, I believe she played with my older girls, but I’m not—not that sure about that.
Kelley
It’s a small world. My goodness.
O’Connor
Isn’t that something?
Kelley
Uh, how does—speaking of your previous teaching experiences, how does teaching at the museum compare to the more formal classroom setting from when you were, um, teaching at a…
O’Connor
Well, again, this is more hands-on. uh, as I do explain to the children going into the classroom, that I know that their teachers—and I will look at the teachers—allows[sic] you to talk a little bit, but eh, not in my room [laughs], you know, but each room is so different that it’s hard to compare, and again we only have them for 45 minutes, and you can almost put up with anything for even the—I al—I always will tell them that, you know, “If you don’t like sitting this way, realize in 45 minutes, you’ll be in the Native American room. You’ll be in Grandmom’s[sic] Attic. You will be able to walk around, but in my room, that’s the way we do it.”
Kelley
Are most of the children pretty willing to play along? Do they…
O’Connor
Yes.
Kelley
Do they take on the role?
O’Connor
Yes, they really are, except sometimes, I’d ask a question and they wouldn’t put their hands up and I’d laugh. I’d say, “I think that’s because I make ‘em stand up.” You know, they just went [inaudible], but they—they really did behave. I mean, the—I, uh—I ran a tight ship. I really did, but it was fun, and that’s why I say I started out in the Native American room and it was more casual, and then for some reason, I was in the classroom and I liked it [laughs]. I liked being mean. The only think I didn’t like was one of our uh, form—uh, former—she’s former now. Uh, she would announce to the children that I was the mean teacher and I just wish she’d let them not know that till they got in my room, but that’s alright.
Kelley
So you taught in the Native American room? What were your experiences like in there?
O’Connor
Okay, I’ve done that. I’ve done basically all of them. I’ll start with Native American. Uh, y experience there was, uh—again, my way of teaching it—I had them come in and sit on the floor, and then we would discuss the room, and then I would send them on a scavenger hunt, and I would tell them the different things that, uh, are in the room, and one of them was a six-legged deer, and if they found it—you know, not tell the others—and I’d give them time to walk around and go in the buildings and—because we do have two buildings and one, uh, hut—and, um, they were not allowed to sit in the boat—in the dugout, because it’s so old—but they were allowed to pick up and look at and find—and then they’d come back to the circle and we would discuss what they found, and, uh, we have three bears in there, and we have—and the six-legged deer was just the idea that a Native American had the deerskin on him and that way he could come closer to, you know—to, uh, hunt, and then, uh, I would pick a child to be the fish and he had swim—and some of them are crazy, you know, and I would talk about the costume that they wore, and of course, there’s no costume we can wear, because the Native Americans went topless, and when I would tell that to some of the chi—some of the groups, some of the children—boys and girls—would sort of snicker, not often, and I would say, “Have you been to the beach recently? They don’t wear too much either,” and so we got over that hump, but, uh, it was fun. It was a fun room and they, uh—they liked it.
We used to paint—long ago, when I first started, we used to put, uh, the paint on their faces, and that was to show them—it wasn’t war paint. it was the, uh, chief—I couldn’t think for a minute—chief and their family wore the—the painting on their body to show that they were the—and then it has slowly dwindled down, and we don’t do that anymore, and in a way it’s better, I think, really. They’re not walking around with their faces all painted up.
O’Connor
Oh, and then if you want the other room—I’ve been in the Native—the, uh—oh, I can’t think for a minute—the Pioneer [Exhibit: Before the Settlement of Sanford] room, and there—in there, again, it’s a different format, because they do have clipboards and they go on a hunt there, but write things down, and again, the circle to introduce the fact about pioneers and anyone, even now, could be a pioneer, and they figure out by going to the Moon or going under the sea, and, um, we talk little bit about that, and then I break them into groups. Some go in the cabin with me, which is a three quarter cabin, and we again talk about that, and the others stay outside.
You can always learn something, because I’ve been here since 1906—1906? [laughs] 1996, and Warren, one of our newer docents, taught me that in the cabin there’s a quilt that has no backing to it. Not at all. It’s just fabric, and I just never—I just used to tell the children, “There’s a quilt,” you know, and he’s pointed out to a group of children that that was used for privacy—that at night, they would drape that across the cabin so Mom and Dad would have privacy and the children—so you can always learn something.
The Grandmom’s[sic] Attic was definitely set up as an attic. Really cluttered, and again we had the fun there. We dipped candles—we don’t do that anymore—and we churned butter, and again, there you’d talk a little bit, and then you divide them to go explore and do those things, and then the, uh, Geography Lab[: Where in the World Are We?] is, again, another exploring situation. Did I cover them all?
Kelley
I think so [laughs]. Um, do you have any, um, really memorable experiences that stand out in your mind?
O’Connor
Well, as I say, the—one with the boy with the nail polish.
Kelley
Mmhmm.
O’Connor
I almost like—What do I do now? There’s a boy with nail polish, and then the little girl who didn’t like me very—oh, and there is another one—and then the lady who I taught years ago and it just was thrilling to see her, and then the other experience I had, basically, was there was a group of mothers—maybe three mothers in the back of the line while we were waiting to come in, and children were being a little noisy and I corrected them, but I corrected them not nicely. I corrected them as a 1902 teacher, because I was dressed for that, and you could see the mothers, like, What is this woman doing talking to my child? And I didn’t—I wasn’t nasty. I was—I just said, “Katie, stop talking.” You know? And, um—I’m using your name—and anyway, you could almost see the wheels turning, that I was so sure they were going to call the superintendent of schools and tell them this woman at the museum, you know—and all that. So anyway, I told the director, who was, uh, a different one now—than we have now, and they did come into my classroom, and again, I was strict, and she did speak with them and they said, “That teacher—we didn’t understand. she was so mean,” and so, uh—I can’t think of her first name, but the director said, “Well, once Mrs. O’Connor puts on the costume, she becomes that 1902 teacher,” and, uh, after the whole day was over, one of the women came up to me and told me what had happened and I said, “Yes, I noticed you were really upset,” and she said, “Well, I want to tell you that I understand and you did a very nice job.” So, what—whatever, right?
Kelley
[laughs].
O’Connor
You have to be careful though. You do have to be careful.
Kelley
Um, since UCF [University of Central Florida] took over with the Public History Center,[1] do you, um, [laughs] do[sic] want us to talk anything about that? I mean, is it…
O’Connor
I will. I—I think it’s wonderful.
Kelley
Mmhmm.
O’Connor
I do think you might want—after we get this done, you might want to take this part out. I am just very upset over Grandmom’s[sic] Attic. They have chosen to not have it be an attic. It’s set up as a class—not a classroom—as a room back in the 1900s, and, uh, we had such interesting things in there. It was a clutter. It really was cluttered, and if you don’t want that, I understand Dr. [Rosalind “Rose” J.] Beiler’s, uh, under—thinking, but the children that used to come were just so amazed at what they saw, you know, and they even had, in the room, my skate key, which might sound funny, but the museum had the skates that they used back in the 1930s, when I was a little girl, and I had the skate key. You had it on a ri—string around your neck and you had the key, so you could fix your skates—tightening them and all that. They didn’t have the key, so I donated my key to the museum and to go with the skates. I think they’re still in there in the room.
Kelley
Mmhmm.
O’Connor
And then another thing that happened was, uh, my one daughter, who’s now mother of two and, uh, in her early forties—she, uh, had a big brown bear and I had it. Don’t ask me why I brought it to Florida with me. I have no idea, but I had it and she didn’t want it, and so I donated that to the museum. I donated Cootie game to the museum and I don’t—I haven’t really been back in the attic too much, but I don’t know, you know, where they are, and it was just the toys were in one area and the children could touch them, play with them, see the difference in how that monkey was not like soft and cuddly like they are now, and, so I’d, uh—I—I miss that. We had a wedding dress in there from Serena’s mother, I believe. We had a 1900-bathing suit and I’d ask the children, “Well, what—what—where would you wear this?” “Oh, you’d go to a party.” “Really?” You know? And then we’d talk about that and how everything would be covered in 1902. The hat the glo—they even had socks, not gloves, and, uh—and then we also had a chamber pot, and I don’t think it’s back there now.
So these are the changes and I have to roll with it. I mean, I have to understand it goes on, but the chamber pot was so funny, ‘cause they had two different sized potties and then a big glass one—or ceramic one—and I’d hold up the one and I’d ask, “What would this be for?” They didn’t have to stand up in Grandmom’s Attic, see? That was gone. They didn’t have—and it’d be, “Oh, we could cook our soup in that.” “No, I don’t think you’d want to do that,” and they’d ask, you know, and I’d say, “Well, that’s what they put under the bed because you didn’t want to go out to the outhouse in the middle of the night,” and then, “Who’s the oldest one here in your family?” Well, hands would go up and I said, “Because you would be the one to empty the chamber pot.” Well, then the hands would go down.
Kelley
[laughs].
O’Connor
But that’s my—my hang up. There’s[sic] things that I miss in Grandmom’s[sic] Attic and, uh—but I know progress moves on, and I know they’re planning something different, so…
Kelley
Well, that’s all of my questions. Um, I—I would like for you to share what you shared with me before the interview about the number of kids that you’ve, that you…
O’Connor
Oh, okay.
Kelley
How you figured it out
O’Connor
Well, last night I was doing my list of paper with—oh, I do have something else to tell you…
Kelley
Oh, sure. Oh, sure. Yeah, go ahead.
O’Connor
Before I do that. There’s a, eh—I don’t know what to call it, but they’re doing Lemonade Lectures over in DeBary at DeBary Hall. Every—this is a plug for them—every other Saturday, and it’s experts, and I don’t consider myself an expert really—come in and they talk about lighthouses, or they talk about, this, that and the other thing, and they asked me if I would go and talk about the museum, and I said, “Yes, I would,” and, um, I did bring—I took some artifacts over and some things over. The girls let me borrow them, and I went over there with my charts and my—my costume on, and I talked about that with them, and I guess it might sound conceited, but up until then, there weren’t that many people coming to the Lemonade Lectures. they were just starting. Well, they had to get extra chairs. People from John Knox [Village] came over, ‘cause it was in the paper…
Kelley
Mmhmm.
O’Connor
About this lady who was gonna talk about a museum from 1902, and some of the people even went to school there, and that was fun, and then the other thing I pointed out there was that, in 1902—and I do it in the classroom too—that boys and girls did not play on the same playground. So I would ask that question, and of course, if they did [claps hands], they got a smack on the bottom from the principal and, uh—but that was something that I really felt honored that I did it. At first, I was a little scared, but that wore off, and the Lemonade Lecture was really fun.
Now, Katie has asked me—I got thinking last night. Uh, I worked here at the museum for 15 years, and if I taught 30 children a day, and let’s say, uh, I worked 30 days out of the year, okay? That would be 900 children I’d see in a year, and then I multiplied it by the, um—[inaudible] did I do? Oh, yeah, that was 15—yeah. I added that, rather, what all did I do here? Oh, yeah, okay. I’m with it, I’m with it. The total of that would have been in 15 years—okay, I would have been working with 13,500 children in my career here at the museum. I have chosen to no longer teach here for health reasons, but I do want to still be a part. So they’ve asked me to be a greeter, and maybe a little later, I’ll become a substitute in the, uh—in the classroom. I don’t know.
Kelley
Well, that’s excellent. Well, thank you, Florence. Um, I don’t have anything else, unless do you have anything else you’d like to add?
O’Connor
I don’t think so, no.
Kelley
Alright, well, thank you so much for sharing your experiences with me, and, um, you know, now your interview will become part of the history of this building as well.
O’Connor
Well, thank you for asking me.
Kelley
Thank you.
[1] Correction: Student Museum.
Shirley Muse
Interviewed by Jesse Glasshoff October 12, 2012
Glasshoff
Okay, we’re on. So—let’s see. Today’s date is October 12th, 2012, and it is 10 AM and we’re here at the [UCF] Public History Center in Sanford, Florida—formerly the Student Museum. Uh, my name is Jesse Glasshoff. I’m a graduate student at the University of Central Florida, and I’m interviewing Shirley Muse. Do you want to introduce yourself, Shirley?
Muse
Good morning. I’m Shirley Muse. I’m the collections person in charge of the collection, and I’ve been here for 13 years—almost 14—and loved every minute of it.
Glasshoff
All right. Well, we’ll go ahead and jump right into these questions. So how did you—how’d come to be working at the museum?
Muse
Well, Serena [Rankin Parks] Fisher, who was the director of the museum in 1999, um, asked me if I wanted to volunteer, ‘cause we were both media specialists together, and I worked at Sanford Middle School, and I knew a lot of the old timers here and their children, and I’ve enjoyed it very much, because I could follow it up over here and see pictures of the grandparents and etcetera [laughs].
Glasshoff
So what—what has been your involvement in the museum? You said you’re the Collections Manager right now. Uh…
Muse
I have been doing all the numbering of the pictures, cleaning the glass, putting them back with new labels, trying to make the print larger so that older people can read it without having to get right up to it, and then if they want a copy of it, they’ll tell me, or if they can identify someone in the picture that is not identified, then they will get in touch with me, make a note, and take the number down, then we go get the picture, and then I take it apart and put in the identity of that person that we didn’t have, and it helps a lot, and they’ve identified family members, and they’ve identified classmates from way back when, and it is really very, very satisfying to do.
Glasshoff
Now, is that—is this the same job you’ve always had here?
Muse
Yes.
Glasshoff
Or have you done…
Muse
I have done only that, because I was the only one that[sic] knew about cataloging, because I’m a retired media specialist. So it’s all gone into the computer and we are getting there…
Glasshoff
[laughs].
Muse
Eventually, to the end, I hope.
Glasshoff
[laughs] Okay. Well, it sounds like a pretty big task, and it sounds like you’re the right person for it.
Muse
I love it. I love it.
Glasshoff
I think everyone else agrees, because you’re the person doing it.
Muse
[laughs].
Glasshoff
Uh, so what—what kind of people—since you’ve been here, what kind of people do you see visiting the museum?
Muse
Well, we have visitors to the area, especially those that may be putting their car on AMTRAK to send back up north, or to pick up their car from the trains, and then they come into town and want something to do, and we are listed, I believe, at the [Historic Sanford] Welcome Center, and also maybe at the Amtrak Station. Then we have the old-timers that want to come back and look at the pictures and think about the old days, and then we have students.
Glasshoff
Okay.
Muse
So we have quite a…
Glasshoff
So tell me a little bit about the students.
Muse
The students—we have mainly K[indergarten] through—well, we mainly have fourth- graders, ‘cause we are with the fourth-grade curriculum.
Glasshoff
Uh huh.
Muse
And we teach to that, but then we have a lot of other students that[sic] come in for the events that we have, and they like to look at the pictures that go into the rooms and peruse what we have on display.
Glasshoff
So—since you’ve been here for quite a while—you have been volunteering for quite a while…
Muse
Uh huh.
Glasshoff
What would you think—what would you say has changed in the museum since you’ve been with them?
Muse
Well, for many years there wasn’t much change, but now that we have UCF [University of Central Florida] as a partner, things are changing for the better, and they are just doing a tremendous job, and I can see that it will go on and prosper and, I think just get better and better, and we are changing things now that we didn’t have the people to do it before, ‘cause there was only like a handful of us volunteers—maybe five or six that worked in the building, teaching the classes, and all of that, but I was the only one doing the cataloging, but then there were the gardeners, and they strictly stayed out in the Pioneer Gardens. So it’s been so many more people helping now, and we can see a real difference taking place now.
Glasshoff
Okay, what was it like when you first got here?
Muse
It was very quiet. We didn’t have many visitors. Well, we first had quite a few visitors for a while, but then when fourth grade would come, we were not allowed to have visitors at the same time, because we couldn’t have them intermingle with the students at that time, and that was, uh, school law to keep the children from wandering off or talking to strangers and everything, and we had to always abide by that.
Glasshoff
So…
Muse
Yeah.
Glasshoff
Just to make sure I’ve got it clear: when you first started, fourth-graders weren’t coming in, and then, shortly thereafter, they were?
Muse
No, they’d been coming in for years.
Glasshoff
Oh, they were?
Muse
Yeah, I misstated that.
Glasshoff
Oh, okay.
Muse
Yeah, yeah.
Glasshoff
That’s all right. I misunderstood you.
Muse
Yeah, but they’d been coming—that’s the main thing—the main that, uh, we did.
Glasshoff
Yeah.
Muse
Was with them, but then as soon as they left, it was open to the public, but then when the economy went down, we had to close down, and only had three days, we had to cut if off early, uh, so…
Glasshoff
Okay, when was that?
Muse
That was I think about three or four years ago. We had to start closing at 3, which didn’t give you much time, ‘cause the children were here until 1:30, and that was only an hour and a half, and a lot of people would have liked to come in, but we couldn’t allow them to come in until 1:30, but many-a-times—I will say—the director stayed until 4 and 4:30 on their[sic] own, to let those people go through and give them a tour. So I—I had to hand it to them.
Glasshoff
[inaudible].So kind of in line with that, who do you—who would you say the exhibits are targeted towards? What are the goals of the exhibits?
Muse
I—I think most of the goals of the exhibits are the fourth-grade curriculum, and the geography of Florida is included in that, and the history of the Native American, and also the pioneers—the early people that settled Florida, and—and that[sic] was[sic] the main ones, and that fit into the curriculum at that time, and I think now it’s been broadened more, since we have other people coming in, and we’ve got new ideas, which we needed, and I think we also have welcomed it, because you get a little stagnant if you don’t have new blood brought in, and I think that’s been very good.
Glasshoff
And it, eh—so would you say since you’ve been here, the exhibits have generally been the same?
Muse
They have generally been the same. There’s[sic] only been a few small changes when we got something that was really pertinent to that room, then we set up a little bit of a—a new part to that room, but that didn’t happen too often, because we weren’t really on the map that well. We didn’t get the publicity that we’ve gotten now.
Glasshoff
Can you give me an example? You said that every now and then, maybe one little part would change?
Muse
Well, um, they were talking about, um, fossils, and one of our, um, gardeners was very interested in fossils and came from a part—a place in Georgia that they’d a lot of them. So when he went up there, he brought back a whole lot of them, and then they put this sand box in and then they put the fossils into the sand so the kids could take little rakes and find them, like they would out in the desert, you know, when looking for things. So that was a new one that was nice at that time, and I can’t tell you exactly when it was.
Glasshoff
That’s okay.
Muse
[laughs].
Glasshoff
That's why we write things down [laughs].
Muse
[laughs].
Glasshoff
So what do you think they’re meant to teach, uh—these exhibits? What—they’re directed towards the students?
Muse
Well, the Pioneer [Exhibit: Before the Settlement of Sanford] room showed how they lived, and how big of space—because we have a small, pioneer, log cabin. We have the cooking utensils that they used at that time in there. We have, uh, like, um, the—the pots that they used on the fire. We have, um, certain clothing. We have an old, pioneer-time nightgown that was actually donated, uh, just about—oh, about a year ago. The lady had two of them, and they’re really tattered and torn, but we washed them, and we hung them up in—one in there to show that they wore a long-sleeved, uh, long nightgowns and long to the floor, you know, and then they, uh—we put one also into the, uh, Grandma’s Attic. Yeah, so it was very neat, because the kids didn’t ever think about what they would sleep in [laughs].
Glasshoff
Right[?].
Muse
But it—it was fun, and the kids got a big kick out of it. Yeah, and if they just learn a few things, you know, and then they go home and tell their parents. Usually, they come back with their parents and their sisters and brothers to see it on their own.
Glasshoff
Yeah.
Muse
It’s nice, yeah.
Glasshoff
Well, what, uh—through all the exhibits you’ve seen—and you’ve seen all of them really, since you’ve been here—which exhibit was your favorite?
Muse
My favorite was Grandma’s Attic.
Glasshoff
Grandma’s Attic?
Muse
‘Cause I had a grandma that[sic] had an attic like that.
Glasshoff
What was it like?
Muse
Well, the Grandma’s Attic—it used to have wallpaper, but they’ve since taken that down, and they’d pictures on the wall, but they were crooked, just like they would be if Grandma had put them up there to store them, and they got crooked. Grandma didn’t go up there to clean it. They just let them hang, and they were just out of the way, and then there was[sic] toys in the attic, and you would know which ones were yours to play with, and they saw that, and then they showed, uh, cooking utensils that Grandma used in the kitchen area, at that time. They had, uh, the irons that you used to heat on the big, uh, stoves that had coal in it or wood-burning stoves, and then they have the iron that they would have to put the coals in the iron and do it, and, uh, they had a coffee grinder there. They ground the coffee to let the children see that. They made candles also, so the kids could see how to make the candles, and everybody got a turn to dip it, but we had to be careful of that—and you might get burnt. So we had to take that out, much to our discouragement, but sometimes you’ve to do that for safety problems. Yeah, but it—it was just fascinating, because there were instruments that were hung from the ceiling on wires, just to keep them out of the way, you know, ‘cause Grandma stored all of that stuff up in the attic, you know, but it—it looked like a real grandma’s attic. Yeah, and everybody—I think the majority of people liked that one. It brought back a lot of memories. You had the old-fashioned toys—the ones that were made of iron and they were very heavy, but the kids still played with them, you know, but, uh, we had a little bit of everything, and we always let them play with the toys. We had, um, the old, um, wood toys that you could—I forget what they were—but they had this—pieces of wood—it was called something. I cannot remember what it was, but you always had to get it back together and it clicked. It was really neat, and the kids had never seen something like that. I should have brought one with me. Yeah, but I didn’t think about it. Yeah.
Glasshoff
[inaudible].Thinking about the exhibits and the changes through time, which parts of the museum do you think had the most impact on the children that have visited—the K through 12[th grade] children?
Muse
I think the Geography [Lab: Where in the World Are We?] room, because the map of Florida is large enough they can walk on, and then they have to learn the names of the cities and where they’re located, and then they have kind of like tops—there's holes driven in the actual map, and you have to take the top that has the name written on it. Pensacola—they learned that it went up in the panhandle. Um, Tallahassee was up north—part, and then there was Miami, and there was Orlando, and they’d to put the right one—the answer— in that position, and they loved doing that, because it was big enough they could walk around it and look, you know, and then actually put that in themselves, like they named it, and they felt real good about that in fourth grade.
Glasshoff
Mmhmm.
Muse
And then I the second best was Grandma’s Attic. They liked the interaction, because they always gave them time to play with the toys and pick them up and touch things, because that’s how we believe, that you should be able to touch things.
Glasshoff
Mmhmm. So aside from the children that have visited, uh, how do you think, uh—how do you see that the museum has had the most impact on the larger community?
Muse
Well, I think Sanford citizens that have been here for years love to come back and reminisce, and they see the houses that they used to walk by on their way to school, because they are still here in the pictures the same. A lot of them in Sanford have been restored and that’s just beautiful thing, but they can come back, and they find people on there that[sic] they haven’t seen in a long time, and it brings back memories, and if you get two or three of them from the same class, they start talking, and they really enjoy it, and they end up spending several hours here many-a-times, particularly the older people, because they are just so excited to be back in their element of time, you know? Yeah, and that toy with the blocks was the Jacob’s ladder, and I know a lot of people would know exactly what I’m talking about. Yeah, there.
Glasshoff
So the decisions to make changes in the, um, museum that have happened recently—and through the time of the museum since you’ve been here—how do you feel that the larger community has impacted the goals and the direction of the museum?
Muse
Um, that’s a good question, because not many changes were made for many years, ‘cause we didn’t have the people to do—to make the changes, and we didn’t have an assessment of what we needed. We didn’t have time to do that, and it’s something we are working on very diligently right now, and I’m very pleased about how it’s going, but at the time, we were so shorthanded, and we weren’t all professional museum people, and that makes a big difference, ‘cause you don’t realize exactly what goes into making a museum meaningful to that community until you start studying it like we are now, and it's really, I think, had a big impact on everybody working here, and I find we all are working together as a good unit, and that’s—makes me feel real good [laughs]. I really do.
Glasshoff
So how has the museum affected your life?
Muse
Well, my husband passed away, um, in 2007, and I find if I don’t get here to work at least two days a week, I get down, because I meet all the people here, I have something that's purposeful in my life, and I’m seeing things coming to fruition, and that makes me feel real good, but I’ve always liked detail-work, and I always feel like anything that has to do with books and pictures and things that have to do with one particular area has got to be a good situation to present to the public. I really do.
Glasshoff
And how has it—how has it affected the way that you understand Sanford?
Muse
I find the people are so friendly and so happy to know that we treasure them and their city as something very worthwhile, and has been very, very, um, very instrument—instrumentally with the—sending things from Jacksonville, the transportation, the steamships all here, and then it's disseminated out along the—the coast—the east coast, the west coast of Florida, and it’s been very interesting for me to learn about it, and they, I think, are proud that we are studying this and keeping track of all the pictures and everything, so that we can look back and see it, and General [Henry Shelton] Sanford—he lived right here in Florida, right at the top of the hill here for many years, and he has a real connection to this city, and I’ve been amazed at how many people have visited his grave up in Connecticut, and we have pictures of that downstairs on the Sanford, uh, bulletin board right outside the office, and the man came and brought me the pictures all on a CD, and I made copies of them with his permission, and I—I thought it was very exciting, and then when people come in and see it, they’re even—they say, “Oh, that’s new,” you know, and I say, “Yeah, we got those by him giving them to us,” and it was wonderful. Yeah.
Glasshoff
So kind of moving in a different direction now [laughs]—you’ve worked here quite a while, and you’ve seen a tons of people come and go. Uh, who do you think was the most memorable person to you that has come to visit the museum?
Muse
Well, I think, Mr. Douglas Stenstrom, who was born here in 1921, and he passed away in 2010. He was a fantastic person, and he—he was in the World War II in the South Pacific. He attended the University of Florida, the University of Virginia, Stetson College.[1] He was a county judge, he was a state senator, and he did many more things than that, and he would come and sit and talk with us when we had an event, and he’d sit for an hour or two, and when he left, he always left a check for us to put into the—the—the bank for keeping this place going, because he was very attached to it—both he and his wife, and they were lovely people, and with all that education and everything, he always found time to stop by, and we just really delighted in him, and I think everybody did, because you couldn’t walk by him without saying something to him, ‘cause everybody knew him. Yeah, it was wonderful. He was a wonderful man. Plus he has a school named after him out in Oviedo, Stenstrom Elementary. Yeah, he[sic] a very generous gentleman.
Glasshoff
So kind of moving away from that, uh—do you’ve any people in mind that[sic] might have gone to the school here that we could contact for future projects at the museum?
Muse
Well, to tell you the truth, Jesse, I gave a whole list of them to Dr. [Rosalind “Rose” J.] Beiler, and they are a lot of the people—the Stiffys—and they are local people that have been here for years and donated their time in many schools and for many activities, and then, um, there’s, um, Bill Robinson. He’s a local person that lives here, and he is just as friendly and happy a man as I’ve ever known, and he went to school here, and his picture’s down one of the bulletin boards downstairs. Plus there is a number of other ones, but I—I can’t remember them all, but I did give her a long list of them with phone numbers, and how to get a hold of them.
Glasshoff
That’s good news [laughs].
Muse
[laughs] In fact, you could get that list, if you’re interested, from her. I’m sure.
Glasshoff
Do you’ve any ideas about spreading the word about the history harvest?
Muse
Well, I think one of the best ways we could do it is to get The Orlando Sentinel columnists—there’s, I think, a Kay—Kay Richardson or—or something. I can’t remember her name, but there’s[sic] several columnists that[sic] do stories on this, and also The Sanford Herald, and if they would do a piece on it and tell ‘em we’re looking for people to bring in things for this, um, um, history harvest, I think it would get out real quick that way, because most people take that Sanford Herald, and if—if they don’t get The Orlando Sentinel—I know friends do, and they pass it around the neighborhood, but I’m sure there would be a lot of people that would be interested in it if they explained what it was and what they want to do. I think it would be great, and I’m excited about it. I really think it will be great.
Glasshoff
Well, thank you for doing the interview. I think that’s[sic] all the questions I have.
Muse
You’re quite welcome.
Glasshoff
Is there anything that you wanted to say—that you wanted to add?
Muse
No, I’m just so happy with the partnership that we have. The people that are coming to work and help are so good, and they are doing a tremendous job, and it makes me feel so good that it’s going to be carried on for years to come, really.
Glasshoff
[inaudible].
Muse
Yeah, I really am.
Glasshoff
Okay. Again, thank you for doing the interview.
Muse
You’re quite welcome.
Shirley Muse
Interviewed by Jesse Glasshoff October 12, 2012
[1] Present-day Stetson University.
Kaczmarek
Alright, uh, today’s date is Wednesday, October 31st, 2012. I’m interviews— interviewing Mr. Gene Kruckemyer in his office at University of Central Florida about his involvement with the [UCF] Public History Center and the Student Museum [and Center for Social Studies]. When did you first move to Sanford[, Florida]?
Kruckemyer
I moved to Sanford in 2004. So I’ve lived within view of the museum for the past eight years. I can see it from my front porch.
Kaczmarek
Nice, and where are you originally from?
Kruckemyer
From Orlando.
Kaczmarek
Oh, Orlando. Okay, and what brought you specifically to Sanford?
Kruckemyer
Uh, back in 2004, when with a succession of three hurricanes coming through Central Florida. Uh, the first hurricane came—we had purchased a house in Sanford as an investment actually, and we weren’t going to move there, but, uh, the first hurricane came and knocked our power out in Orlando. Uh, we had the house in Sanford. It had power. We decided to just move up there until everything was okay back in Orlando, and then two more hurricanes came, and did the same thing, and we just finally decided to stay in Stan—in Sanford, uh, because we enjoyed living there. We enjoyed the town. We enjoyed the people.
Kaczmarek
Nice[?], and, um, you worked at The Sanford Herald for a while?
Kruckemyer
Currently, uh, I’m at the University’s News and Information office. I’m the news editor. Previous—previous three years, I was the publisher of The Sanford Herald, and for the 33 years before that, I worked at The Orlando Sentinel.
Kaczmarek
Oh, okay, Um, and what did you do at The Sanford Herald?
Kruckemyer
I was a publisher.
Kaczmarek
Publisher? Okay.
Kruckemyer
Which is—which is basically the, you know, CEO [chief executive officer] of the newspaper. Making sure all the different departments worked together and…
Kaczmarek
And how did you first learn about the Student Museum?
Kruckemyer
Well, it was—in my time as publisher at The Herald, uh, while living right across the park from it. I, uh—I couldn’t avoid it, but—but the issues that were coming to the museum were that, uh—it was during a critical time, while I was the publisher, that—that the school—the Seminole [County Public] School[s] Board was considering closing the building down, because of economic reasons, and, uh, people in town and the county—the whole county—got involved and started creating committees to preserve the building, and that’s how The Herald got involved, and, uh, one of the things that we did was to, um, uh, redo the school bell that had not been used for decades. The building was built in 1902, and, uh, it was first used as a—as a, uh, senior high school.1 Uh, I think, in 1911, it became a, uh—a grammar school.2 And it was that until 1984, when it was put on the [U.S.] National Register for Historic Places, and it was turned to the Seminole County, uh, Student Museum—or actually they called it—it had a longer name like—you probably know what it is. It had like—it was the, um—uh, the Student Museum and Center for the Social Studies, but most people just called it the Student Museum, and it was a place where fourth graders go to learn Florida history, and it was a hands-on, uh, interpretive museum for other people come in during the week and learn different things about local history, and Florida history and, the native, uh, Floridians, uh, pioneers—a demonstration garden in the back show what people used to grow in the 20th, uh—at the turn of the 20th century. So it’s an interesting place.
Kaczmarek
And how did you get specifically involved with the bell?
Kruckemyer
Um, I did a column one time. Uh, it was a Q&A with the building. I asked building questions and answered questions, and, uh, I talked to a friend of mine in Sanford—her name is Bette Skates—and she was student at the, uh—uh, I think she was there when it was a grammar school, and, uh, she said she wished that bell would be, you know—able to be rung again. It hadn’t been rung in decades. Nobody knows why it stopped being used, but, uh, in 1916, the building got electricity, so they put in an electric bell. Sometime after that, they stopped using the bell, which had a, uh—a pull cord that went from the bell tower to the principal’s office, but the—but the hole was blocked off, so it wasn’t used, and I was talking to Bette, and she said she sure wished that bell would be able to be used again.
So, uh, I thought that’d be a good project for The Sanford Herald. We, uh—we decided to make it work. So I talked with the then superintendent, whose name is Bill Vogel, and, uh, we—we figured out how much it was going to cost, and, uh, I had, uh—I contacted a friend of mine in Sanford—his name is Steve Meyers[sp]. He’s a[sic] historic preservationist and he does construction work, and—and, uh, he and I went up one day and he did all the work, and I was the gopher[?], and I ran his errands, and he made a new channel for the rope and put a marine-grade rope up there, and, uh, now it goes to the principal’s office, and every year they use the bell on the first day of school to signal the start of school for each year.
Kaczmarek
Wow. Um, and what was—you talked a little bit about the process of restoration. Um, what was the community, um, reaction to you this project?
Kruckemyer
Well, you can imagine, a lot of people that, uh, went to school there over the years had a—had a soft spot for the building. So, uh, they were objecting to the plans to either close the school on purpose, or just let it fade away, you know? Uh, so a lot of people formed committees to, uh, preserve the building. Um, uh, they raised money different ways. They had sales. I think—I think they still have periodic garage sale, at least until I think UCF [University of Central Florida] took over. They used to have periodic garage sales to help, you know offset the costs, ‘cause the school board was in some dire financial problems, because of the economy. So they didn’t have the money for it, but, uh, at least the community groups kept it going long enough, until UCF thankfully came in and, uh—and leased the building to use it for the Public History Center.
Kaczmarek
And, um—let’s see. Are you—what—what other projects were you involved with the museum, if any?
Kruckemyer
Um, that was—that’s pretty much, uh—as far as The Sanford Herald—I mean, uh, that’s pretty much right there in my neighborhood.
Kaczmarek
[laughs].
Kruckemyer
So, uh, I’m sorta a—a watchdog to see if there’s anything that needs to be reported. That’s been going on so the only thing.
Kaczmarek
And, how are you involved with the Public History Center now?
Kruckemyer
Um, I’ve been to several of the events that have been there.
Kaczmarek
[laughs].
Kruckemyer
They just had the, uh, Pumpkin Fest, and I was there on the opening day of school, and, uh, there was another event recently I went to, um…
Kaczmarek
The open house?
Kruckemyer
The open house.
Kaczmarek
And, you’ve lived in Sanford for—since 2004. Um, have you seen a lot of changes within the community of Sanford, since the time you’ve lived there?
Kruckemyer
Um, I—I live in the historic district, and the museum, er—the Public History Center was in the museum—in the—in the, uh, historic district. So we live in an area that doesn’t see as much change as a lot of places, uh, because there are[sic] a lot of restrictions of what you can and can’t do, but I don’t mind. I moved into the neighborhood not even knowing that was the case, and I think that history’s—or the, uh, historic district is one of the things that’s really saved Sanford, because people got interest in preserving the neighborhood, preserving the houses, preserving the way things used to be, and that’s something I enjoy.
Kaczmarek
Nice. Um, and when you said you worked at The Herald, what would—what would you say would be one of your more memorable experiences with The Herald? I know The Herald goes back and it’s a part of Sanford and that it’s been around for a long time. Um, what would you say would be one of your most memorable experiences as working at the smaller paper—as compared to The Sentinel—is?
Kruckemyer
Well, um, in my time there, I—I always maintained that the community papers were going to be the ones to survive, because, um, bigger papers—they carry a lot of things that you can get online at a hundred different sources. The things that are in a community paper are only in the community paper, and one of my goals was to—to make sure that we could provide to the community with what—what, uh—what they needed to know, and people seemed to respond. We did all kinds of, uh, reader interactive things and, uh, contests, and—and, uh, I started something called the “Centennial Forum,” which was, uh, like, uh, every edition. We’d have an, uh, opinion piece written by somebody from our, uh, town. We had all kinds of people running for supervisor of elections to, um, handymen, to teachers, to just everybody. So that was something that got a lot of positive response, and, uh, it worked so well that once I came here, I sorta, uh, hijacked that idea. Brought it to the university, and we started a similar thing called “UCF Forum,” and, uh, every Wednesday, we have an opinion piece by somebody that’s on our panel. We had nine people on the panel and they’d rotate, and, uh, so the, uh, opinion piece runs on the UCF website every Wednesday.
Kaczmarek
Very nice, and now, you said you had a column about—with the museum. What—can you tell me a little bit about that?
Kruckemyer
Uh, the original one was a column I wrote when I was at The Sentinel, and, uh, that was the one where I had the Q&A, where I talked about the building.
Kaczmarek
Yes.
Kruckemyer
And they asked how old it was, you know, and its interest and its favorite movies—that sort of thing [laughs].
Kaczmarek
[laughs] And what were its answers? [laughs].
Kruckemyer
[sighs] Oh, um, I don’t remember offhand. I know I asked about relatives, and it said it had relatives all over the world, like the Louvre, the Smithsonian [Institution], and…
Kaczmarek
[laughs] And how would you describe the community of Sanford to someone that doesn’t, like, know Sanford?
Kruckemyer
Uh, as I said, I moved 8 years ago, and, uh, it’s not as congested as Orlando is. Uh, it’s—it’s a community that I enjoy. In fact, they’re undergoing, uh, a program right now called Imagine Sanford [Community Vision and Strategic Planning]. It’s a, uh, group that’s been called together, and I’m on the committee to do that. Um, so we’re just looking to see what’s Sanford wants to be like within the next 10, 20, 30 years. What are the things we value? What are the things we want to improve? What are the things we want to change? Uh, so this something that we’re undergoing right now, and, uh, hopefully by next May, we’ll have a report to, uh, give to the [Sanford] City Commission to—to tell what we think should be done.
Kaczmarek
Wow. That’s really interesting. Well, thank you very much for your time. I really much appreciate you doing this interview with me.
Kruckemyer
You’re welcome.
Kaczmarek
Uh…
Kruckemyer
[inaudible].
See
This is an oral history interview of Serena [Rankin Parks] Fisher. The interview was conducted by MacKenzie See at the [UCF] Public History Center on Augu—er, on October 8th of 2012. Interview topics include experience with the Sanford Student Museum [and Center for the Social Studies] and Public History Center. Okay. Um, what is your name?
Fisher
My name is Serena Parks Fisher.
See
Um, and what is your occupation?
Fisher
My occupation is dilettante. In other words, I’m a retired teacher and I now do things that I enjoy doing. A little of this and a little of that.
See
Um, and how long have you lived in the Sanford[, Florida] area?
Fisher
I don’t live—well, it depends on what you consider the Sanford area. I do not live in Sanford, but I have lived in Seminole County since 1978.
See
Okay, um, how did you become involved with the Public History Center and what is your role here?
Fisher
Okay, uh, um, I’m a little confused about you asking me about the Public History Center, because, uh, my involvement with the Public History Center came as a result of my involvement with the Seminole County Public School[s’] Student Museum, and I was involved with the Student Museum. First, as a social studies teacher in the school district. At the time the museum was created, I was hearing about it, etc., and at that point, every school was asked to submit a display that gave information about their school. Now, that would have been during the time period of [19]85-‘86 and so forth.
Um, then as time went on, I left the social studies classroom, and went into a media center at a middle school, and again, I would hear about groups going to the Student Museum, and then later, I became, uh, the social studies resource teacher for the district, and then from that position, had the opportunity to become the museum specialist, which was the teaching position at the Student Museum, and as such, I was the teacher, curator, what—whatever, and so, uh, I retired in 2000 and went about my merry way just being a volunteer at the Student Museum, until there was a crisis regarding the restoration of the building, and there was some, um, controversy regarding that, and so I was involved as a member of the restoration committee, and then that morphed into, uh, UCF [University of Central Florida] having the agreement with the school district and the Public History Center, and I must say that I could not be more delighted about this relationship between the University of Central Florida Public History Center and what, uh, has taken place with the school district, because I feel now that the Student Museum—Public History Center—will be achieving the goal that it originally was intended to achieve.
See
Um, in what ways do you feel that the Student Museum is important to the community?
Fisher
Well, I feel that the Public History Center and the Student Museum is important to the community—just the building itself. One of the few remaining examples of Romanesque revival architecture—educational architecture—that is, uh, in the state of Florida. So just from an architectural standpoint, I think the building has a special purpose, but I think more importantly, the reason for me that it is so important is that it is a hands-on museum for students coming through, so that they learn by being involved and actually doing work here at the center. I think that for adults in the community, um, in many ways it’s a reminder of what their school days might have been like and also a reminder of things they have heard their family, um, talk about, and I feel something that the Public History Center will be working on now is using the archives here at the Public History Center, so that those who are doing research can find out more about the past in this area. Um, uh, so I think that is more speaking to the building and the interpretive exhibits, uh, here in the building. Uh, I also feel that this is a very unique setting, because of the teaching gardens here, and there are other hands-on museums in [U.S.] National Register [of Historic Places] buildings, but I don’t know of any other that is a hands-on museum in a National Register building and also has the teaching gardens, and I think this is an added dimension here.
See
Um, you were telling me earlier about the three things that you thought were really important about, um…
Fisher
During me my time here?
See
During your time here [laughs], yes. Can you tell me more about those?
Fisher
Okay, I interpreted my job here—as a museum specialist—that I was a teacher—that my job was to work with students every day and to also work with the teachers, uh, and this gave me many opportunities, not only for, uh, elaborating on curriculum, but also in providing for in-services and so forth, but looking back over my time here at the museum, the three things that I am most proud of—that I can say, “Well, this is something tangible that I did,” uh, was seeing that, um, the gardens were established. This was something I wanted to do, and I realized when I was talking to the students in the Native American room[1] about the three sisters and, um, about the plants, the crops that were grown by the Native Americans, or in the Pioneer Room[2] talking about the three G’s—grits, greens, and gravy. I realized that many students did not quite understand about—what I was talking about. “What are these vegetable for?” For them, these things just came from the store in frozen packages or in cans, and so I thought if they could actually see the plants growing, that that would be important, and fortunately there was, in the neighborhood, a master gardener, Walt Paget, who needed to have a project, and therefore, he was the one who actually came, and we worked together in establishing the very first garden, which was more of a pioneer-oriented garden, but I felt that the establishment of the teaching gardens—showing plants, herbs, and also the historic rose garden— that this was a significant, uh, development during my time here, and the other two things may seem trivial, but to me, they made a difference, and one was having the animal sounds in the Native American room. I thought that, with the subdued lighting, that created more of an atmosphere of traveling back in time to a Native American village, and then here in the Turn of the Century Classroom[: Lessons from 1902]—the ticking of the clock. because I realized that many students could—are just accustomed to digital clocks and had never heard a clock ticking, and so we not only have a clock that ticks, but the face of the clock has Roman numerals, which again, served as a teaching tool. So I guess the three things, when I look back on my tenure here as a museum specialist, were the gardens, the animal sounds, and the ticking clock.
See
What’s your favorite story about the Public History Center or the Student Museum?
Fisher
I have many, many [laughs] that I guess would be favorites that are quite different. Um, two immediately come to mind. One involves students. I had the privilege of working with the tea—uh, a teacher of the autistic, uh, students at Eastbrook Elementary [School], and we worked on a curriculum that we would have the students visited once a month throughout the entire school year. I found that most of the students who were coming were not able to communicate with us verbally, but they seemed to have a real appreciation. They could identify items and so on and so forth. So we felt that we were accomplishing something, and then one day, we were in the Pioneer room, and I had brought down the items from the American Girls book that corresponded to the pioneer period or to a pioneer period, and one of the students in the class was examining the items, and he picked up the item and called it by the name in the book—the, uh, American Girls book, and the teacher had told me earlier that he had read all of the books, but they weren’t sure if he were—was really understanding what he had read. He picked up the lunch pail—and the pail was called a “tenet”—and he picked it up and said that word, and the teacher was astounded and she said, “Did you tell him this?” And I said, “No,” and she said, “I did not.” His mother could not believe it, and that’s when the teacher and the mother realized that this student was reading these books and truly was understanding. That was a memorable day.
Another memorable day was a very early morning knock on the door, uh, at the Student Museum, and an older man was there with his wife and asked if he could come in, and he explained that he had just come in on the auto train—uh, was here in Sanford, because of the auto train, and they were headed on into South Florida, but as a child he had lived here in Sanford, and this was his elementary school, and he wanted to show it to his wife. He asked if he might go upstairs to the auditorium, and he began telling his wife about the plays that the students put on here, and that one of the most proud moments in his life was being in a school play, and that his parents had come to the performance, and how proud he felt, and that he was just bursting with pride when he greeted his parents after the play, and they told him—this was in the depths of the [Great] Depression—that this would be his last time at the school—that they had lost their house, and they moved from the area, and he said that they had to move in with relatives in another state, and he went from this high point, where he was feeling so good to—about himself to a point where he felt that he was—he—he didn’t have anything anymore, and he wanted to come back and show his wife this location, where he had once felt so good about himself.
See
Um, did you ever have any students who misbehaved during a field trip [laughs]?
Fisher
Um, it depends on what you call “misbehave.” Um, I dressed in the role of a turn-of-the-century teacher, and I—I—I did not have any real problems. I had some I had to speak to, and, uh, I tend to use a lower voice when I am really serious and really stern, and it worked out.
I think one of my interesting experiences, though, uh, took place when I student came in at lunchtime, and I just—he was joining his class—and I just assumed the student had been to a doctor’s appointment or something like that, and I noticed that the other students were very much interested in talking to him and I thought, Well, you know, maybe it was an unusual appointment or something, but it was at lunch and they were chatting, you know? So that was it, and after lunch, I took the group to Grandma’s Attic, where they had the opportunity to try on clothing and so forth, and, uh, that’s when I realized that the student had been given—at the appointment in the morning—an ankle monitor, and that’s why [laughs] his classmates were very much interested in how his appointment had gone, but it—it was no problem with the child. He cooperated beautifully.
See
Um, how do you see the Public History Center’s role in the community changing, now that it’s open to the public, instead of just for fourth grade field trips?
Fisher
Okay, the key thing there is “open to the public.” Because of very limited staff— it was very difficult to have it open for extended hours, and working under the school district, we could not have the public in when students were here, and so that meant there were just limited opportunities for the public to come. I now see this for—as an opportunity for, uh, people from all over whether they’re coming in by auto train or the airport or, uh, wherever—having the opportunity to visit here, because of the extended hours and the fact that the, um, Public History Center will be open on the weekend.
I also envision that there will be learning opportunities—special programs for adults here, and I had mentioned one that I hope—I would love to see it develop—um, where there was to be a workshop here for adults, where they would be given the opportunity to start writing down their own personal history—their own life story, [air conditioner turns on] and I think that this would be an ideal setting for that, because there are so many visual props that would remind them of episodes in their own life, that they might want to jot down these stories and pass on.
Now, we’re probably being distracted by the sound of the air conditioner, but that points out [laughs] a challenge now, but it also points out something special about this building—that the building itself can be used as a teaching tool, with the wonderful windows, and how they were used for light, as well as ventilation, and how the design of the building was also used to take advantage of cross- ventilation, but we obviously have a very loud air conditioner.
See
[laughs] Um, do you have a favorite room in the museum?
Fisher
I guess, being a teacher, this Turn of the Century Classroom is my absolute favorite room. Uh, I feel very much at home here, and, um, I have very happy memories of teaching in this room. I have very happy memories of teaching in other areas, but I’m the daughter of a teacher, and in many ways this reminds me of things my mother would tell me about.
See
Um, do students seem to get more out of some rooms in the museum than others, or does it just depend on the student, or all the rooms equally valuable?
Fisher
It depends on the students, and it depends on the preparation they have had before they had come here. I think, for me, the beauty of the hands-on experience is that students, who might not excel at the written word or reading in the traditional classroom, all can do very well here because of hands-on and verbal participation, but, um, I think—I think it depends on the student’s own interests, and, uh, again, it probably has a lot to do with the enthusiasm of the guide who is showing them the particular area. That might be a factor, as well.
See
Um, what advice would you give people who want to volunteer at the museum?
Fisher
Do it. Uh, the beauty of the Public History Center is that there are so many volunteer opportunities, not just for working with the students. Now, the main[?] one that I found most rewarding was working with the students and the exchange—the interaction—but there are jobs that are needed to be done behind the scenes. Whether it is inventorying the suitcases or books, or whether it is working with the archives, or whether it is working as a gardener in the teaching gardens. I think that there is—or a greeter. Oh, that is a wonderful job for someone who enjoys people, but really does not want to, uh, work with the students in the instructional program. That is a wonderful opportunity. So I really—that there is something here for everyone, and so, if someone is a little tentative about volunteering, I would suggest that they come and tour, and say, “Alright. This is what I like to do. What can I do to help you?”
See
Um, if you could describe your ideal future for the Public History Center and the Student Museum, what would it be?
Fisher
[laughs] For the instructional program to continue for fourth graders, but also for that program to be expanded, and again, during the time, I was here, I had the opportunity—we had year-round school. We had multi-age classes—that was a phase that the district was going through. I especially enjoyed working with the multi-age classes, because that meant that students came here one year and then they would come the following year, and so we could do different things. I also liked working with teachers on special programs, and I think this is where the Public History Center, working with UCF students, could do a great deal—is working with teachers collaborating—using the resources here at the Public History Center—to develop special programs. I would like to see more in-service staff development done with, um, teachers here. So that teachers, who are required to do certificate renewal, could take a course here at the Public History Center. Again, going back to what I had mentioned about community programs—and I hope that someday there is an elevator, so that we aren’t limited in the use of the auditorium and use of the, um, second level, but I just see this more as a very active center in the community and—where all of us can learn about changes in education and innovation in the education.
See
Um, what do you think is the ideal age for students to come to the Student Museum? I mean, we’ve heard about the fourth grade field trip. Is—is that about the ideal age or…
Fisher
Oh, I think it depends on what you are offering. I think that, uh, the fourth grade fit in with the Florida curriculum, but again, depending on what the teacher might be doing—or special programs that could be developed. You see, uh, at one time there was an eighth grade program here as well, and, um, due to budget cuts and so forth, that program had to be eliminated, and also, there were problems scheduling with the middle school schedule, but, um, I—and I have had the opportunity again with year-round education to work with senior high students. So this is the beauty of this facility. It can be taught at so many different levels, depending on where you’re putting your focus.
See
Um…
Fisher
I think everyone should come here and, as I said, I am delighted at the potential that I am seeing, the enthusiasm with those from UCF, uh, in transforming this into a Public History Center, and I’m delighted that the public will now have greater access to this facility.
See
Um, I’ve heard that the Public History Center serves—or has served—a lot of other purposes in the community, other than just as a museum and a teaching facility. I even heard a story about someone getting married here. Um, do you have any experiences with it in other capacities, other than as just the, uh, museum?
Fisher
Well, I was not involved with someone getting married here, but I know that it has been open, thanks to the Sanford Historic Trust, several years ago inviting the museum to be part of the annual tour. It was opened for that. So for—that would be more of a social, um, learning experience too, but I—I really do not know beyond that. I know students always want to know about ghosts. “Are there ghosts here at the Student Museum?” But I, um, don’t know about that.
See
Well, speaking of ghosts, um, do you have a favorite aspect of the history of this place? I mean, as a school, as Sanford Grammar, or, um…
Fisher
Uh, no. I do not. Uh, I think that could definitely be addressed by students who came here, and something that I found very rewarding was when reunion groups from what had been Sanford High School and now is Seminole High School, when they would have their reunions and request that the museum be open on the weekend, so that they could come back and visit. I enjoyed hearing the stories of that and since I had no grown up in the Sanford community. Um, I learned a lot from that, but, um, no. Nothing else I don’t think.
See
Um, so I’ve heard that there are a lot, um, of seasonal celebrations that take place here, um, especially around fall and things like that. Do you—do you go to those? Or…
Fisher
Well, in the past, I have volunteered with those, and, um, one of the favorite celebrations—it depends on how the, uh, calendar goes—is the Spring Fest around May Day, because when this was Sanford Grammar School, the May Day celebration was a major celebration for students here, and so—for several years, the Spring Fest has included that dancing of the May Pole, and that was of appeal to those who had gone here remembering their days as students.
See
Um, we’ve talked a lot about school-age children coming to the Student Museum and Public History Center. Um, is there a minimum age where it’s appropriate to bring children?
Fisher
Uh, I think it depends on the parents, who would be bringing them. Um, uh, I would think that a child from, I would say, maybe three on—although we have had them in strollers and so forth coming through, but, um, I—I think it depends on—are you talking about them coming just to visit the building, just to see the building or to participate in a program? I—I would think that three would be about the youngest, but it depends on the parents, and, um, what the children have been exposed to before.
See
Um, what about adults coming here? I mean, I know Student Museum sort of implies that it’s only for children, but do you think there’s something for adults also?
Fisher
Oh, absolutely, and, um, again, uh—going back to things that I remember—um, I remember, um, an adult friend of mine bringing her mother here, and the mother, uh, was quite elderly and had limited vision, but coming into this classroom and hearing the sound of the footsteps on the hardwood pine floor and so forth, and the ticking of the clock, and just feeling the chalkboards and so forth, brought back memories of her school days, and the mother just began sharing these stories that the daughter had never heard. So I think that this is a multi-generational location. Student Museum—remember that its origins are with the Seminole County Public Schools, so I think that that is larger, but there was another part to that name. It was the School Board of Seminole County’s Student Museum and Center for the Social Studies, and this goes back to the point that I was—wanted to make earlier—was that I think with, um, UCF now and with the emphasis on public history, that this is going to be more of a center for social studies and for adults to be involved.
See
Alright. Thank you so much for talking to me.
Fisher
Okay, thank you.
Morris
This is an interview with Garnett White. This interview is being conducted on October 13th, 2011, at the Museum of Seminole County History. The interviewer is Joseph Morris, representing the Linda McKnight Batman Oral History Project for the Historical Society of Central Florida. Sir, could you tell us a little bit about yourself?
White
Well, yes. I was born in St. Augustine, Florida. My father was a butcher—or meat-cutter, I guess we would call it. We moved to Sanford when I was maybe three years old. I remember when I was four years old going to a birthday party to a neighbor girl—and as I’ve over the years have tried to think when that was. I believe I was about four years old. We lived on [West] Tenth Street in Sanford, and my father worked as a butcher—meat-cutter—and he moved here from southwest Georgia—called Pelham, Georgia—and he went to work here for a man from Pelham, Georgia, named Bluitt Stevens.
We lived on Tenth Street until I was in about second grade, and my father had a house built on Tenth and [South] Laurel Avenue, and he still worked for Mr. Stevens. Mr. Stevens owned a store in Downtown Sanford where the Colonial Room Restaurant is now, and it was called Triple S Groceteria—the red front store, and that time is about the time I started school, and I went to Southside Elementary [School], where my first grade teacher was a Mrs. Jacobs, and the principal was Mrs. Harrington. And I remember those times. I went up through the fourth grade. And in the second grade, Elizabeth Wigham was my teacher. And the third grade, was a lady named Bobbi Goff. And the fourth grade, was a lady named Bobbi Goff. And this was only about three—maybe four—blocks from my home, and back then, of course, you didn’t have buses like that, and I remember walking to school when I’m six years old, and of course today, they don’t allow that type of thing, but it was not out of the ordinary at all.
One memory I have of that is that the lunch. The lunches cost 11 cents. You got a blue ticket for five cents, and that gave you the food—a roll usually, amongst other things—and milk was six cents. That was a yellow ticket. And I think you could get all five for 25—all five of a week for 25 cents, as well as I remember. But most people brought their own lunches. They did buy milk for six cents. And that was kind of interesting.
This would have been in about 1940 or ’41, and the Second World War started in 1941, and I remember big piles of metal, particularly aluminum, and rubber. This was to help the war effort, with aluminum to build airplanes out of—and I don’t know what they did with the rubber. But that was my first recollection of playing baseball—or softball, I guess it was—was at Southside Elementary.
Then we, uh—my grandfather was from Athens, Georgia, and he had his arm taken off. He had cancer, and my mother went up there to take care of him for about six weeks, and I, of course, went with her, and so I went to school for that six weeks in Winterville, Georgia.
Of course, coming back to Sanford, continued with school at—we called it [Sanford] “Grammar School,” which is now the Student Museum on Seventh Street and Elm Avenue in Sanford. They’d talk about it being so old, and so on. Of course, that was 70 years ago almost, but it doesn’t look any different today than it did back then. And they’d talk about it being old, and so on and so forth. Didn’t mean anything to us. You know, you had a seat and that was it. You know, scribbling all over the desks with knives. So on. So, you know, times—it just did not mean anything to us, as far as how new something was, and apparently nowadays you got to have a new school, or they don’t—or the children don’t accomplish as much, I guess, is a word [laughs].
But then—about when I was 11 years old, I got a paper route. Remember, this is during the war—the Second World War. And I got a paper route delivering The Florida Times-Union, which is the Jacksonville paper. They weren’t—the Sanford paper came out in the afternoon, and it was very hard to get newspaper or newsprint, and presses would break down, and I delivered The Sanford Herald also, about that time, and they had brown paper. It looked like the brown paper that’s used by butchers to wrap meat in, and that was kind of odd. And I’ve talked to people in the last few years, and they remember the paper being printed on that brown paper.
But something that is really kind of interesting is, over the years, I have talked and had coffee with Senator Mac Cleaver, and we would always talk about our paper routes. He was older than I was, but it never changes. And we would talk about who lived in certain houses, and where they would leave the money for the newspaper, and they still—me being eight years younger than Mac—they still left it at the same place—on the banister, on the porch, that type of thing.
Of course, after that, we went to Sanford Junior High School, which was over on Ninth Street and Sanford Avenue, and I guess that’s when we started growing up a little bit, and getting around town on our bicycles more than we did when we were very young. But we would ride our bikes down to the lakefront—which is Lake Monroe, down where the motel is now—and we’d jump off the seawall. It was there at that time. We’d jump off. We’d swim out to one of the beacons or markers out in the water. Another time—me and another fellow—we swam across the lake all the way to the power plant, and truthfully, we walked most of the way. It was very shallow out in the middle. We didn’t really walk. We just kind of touched bottom, and my father picked us up on the other side at the power plant on the north side of Lake Monroe.
But those were good times. It was not out of the ordinary to go downtown and walk around. Go through the alleys and see what people—or I’m talking about stores—had thrown away and did we want it, and that sort of thing, you know. It was—I really remember one time we went behind a place called [B. L.] Perkins. That was a men’s store. And there was a book of swaths of material that you could pick out what you—the men—would want their suits made out of. And we thought that—they were little old things about three by three inches, about three inches—and we thought that was a big deal. We took those home, and I think our parents threw them away. Anyway, as time goes on, in high school, went further from home, and went through all of the things, I guess, that happen in high school. And immediately after that, I joined the Navy and spent my hitch on board a fleet OR, and this would have been in 1950-51. But going all over town with paper routes, you just got to where you saw things you would never have seen, or people that you talked to or knew—you knew who they were, uh, if you didn’t have a paper route.
And then, as time goes on and I got out of the Navy, I got my—went to the real estate—school of real estate law—and, uh, got my broker’s license. And shortly thereafter, I met my wife, my now-wife. And we got married and had three children. As far as the real estate business is concerned, that was 50—I still have a license—and that’s 56 years ago. That’s a long time. I actually made a living at it. Only way I’ve made a living, up until about 6-7 years ago. And I’m 78 now, so it was time. But in the meantime, there’s quite a bit of property—not houses, but I never was much in the house business—that I’ve sold over that period of time three different times. There was one piece of property I sold three times. All three times were to people named Hall, and that they had never known each other, of course.
Morris
Of course.
White
So it’s interesting. And land would sell for—I can remember appraising. I did quite a bit of appraisals for the banks in Sanford and the First Federal Savings & Loan, and that really got me back into going to places that you normally wouldn’t go if you weren’t in the real estate business. As time goes on, I was handling acreage, as I said, and they pretty well quit farming in Sanford.
Uh, farming as they knew it at that time, which was produce—which was celery. You know, at one time, they said that Sanford—Seminole County I guess—was the celery capital of the world. And it was actually a picture in one of the school books that said “harvesting celery in Sanford.” I remember that. But after the war, they—the farming kind of petered out, because it all went to the muck, and the muck means that you don’t have to spend as much money on fertilizer. And the type soils that we have around Sanford—the farming areas—was good to hold the roots in place and that’s all. And that’s come from the farmers that said, “No, you got to fertilize.”
So muck farms in Zellwood and down in Lake Okeechobee pretty well had an end to the farming in the area. It’s my understanding from the owner of Chase and Co[mpany], which was a very large company—probably the largest farmer in Central Florida back in the ‘20s and—but the last celery grown in the Sanford area was in 1975. Now that came from the owner, president of Chase and Co., and his name was Sydney Chase—Sydney [Octavius] Chase, Jr. His father[1] and his father’s brother[2] are the ones that started Chase and Co.
Something really interesting is that, of course, all of this product had to be shipped by railroad. You know, you didn’t have trucks like you have today. You just didn’t put things on a truck, haul it to New York. It all had to go to—through the railroad, and so most every packinghouse—that type of thing—was located where it could be sent by the railroad. And celery—and cabbage, cucumbers, all of those things—required refrigeration. Well, if you’ll think back to 1925, you didn’t have no refrigeration. But they was able to make ice in big 300-pound “slabs” I’ll call them. Chase and Co. had an icehouse out on the east side of Sanford. There was another one in Ransidey[?], which is in Monroe, Florida, just west of Sanford on the railroad. And you had railroad cars called “reefer” cars, and that stood for “refrigerator.” And they would put these big 300-pound slabs of ice in these railroad cars. They were all painted yellow, and during the summer, there was a siding going—railroad siding going from Sanford Avenue out to the Chase washhouse, which is on Cameron Avenue. And that’s a long ways. And they would store these reefer cars all summer long, because they had no use for them except to ship produce, and of course, you didn’t grow produce in the summertime. Come summertime, in like May or something, would be the last that they grew until next fall and next winter. But I remember all those yellow reefer cars there, and I’m sure many other people that was[sic] out in that area remember just sitting on the siding and waiting on the next year.
But there was a lot of—another thing is interesting is it seems as though to me that the people that owned automobiles—and their kids went to school with me—they were farmers. And other people didn’t have automobiles. My father did not have an automobile until 1946, which was right after the war, and things became available to sell, particularly meat products.
But all of that—getting back to the real estate business, I would come across and I knew a lot of people in the citrus business. And as time went on, I sold some citrus groves, and I bought some citrus groves, and I leased several citrus groves. And our—my wife and I’s—two children kind of grew up knowing what citrus was, and you could go on the Internet under White’s Red Hill Groves and read about us, and it’ll tell you all you need to know about our family and the citrus business. But it’s been 29 years now since we purchased a gift fruit packinghouse called Red Hill Groves. So we have set out new trees and taken care of old trees, and picked and packed, and shipped citrus all over the United States. I would say there’s not a state we haven’t shipped fruit to. But times have changed considerably, since probably 1985 and things started booming—this is because of Disney—and started booming.
And another thing that’s kind of interesting here is that when I went to high school, Seminole High School had a hundred people in each class. And Crooms Academy had maybe 30, and Oviedo [High School] may have 15, and Longwood, which is called Lyman High School, may have 15. And look at it today, there’s what? Eleven high schools, each one of them got three thousand in that school. So that’s really what started happening during those years, and those of course, just kind of bloomed.
Really interested—I was very active in the civic things in the city—Chamber of Commerce, the Jaycees,[3] and that type of thing. As time goes on, I think I’ve been through four—they call them—they don’t call them “depressions,” whatever they call them.
Morris
Recessions?
White
Recessions. And I’ve been through four of them. And I can remember trying to sell houses for a hundred dollars down and making a commission. There ain’t much left to make a commission out of. But times would get better, and then you’d start selling again. People would start buying again. I guess time is going to tell about the one we’re in now in 2011.
But anyway, it was a good life that I lived in Sanford. It is much different. Traffic, as everybody knows, gets on your nerves. But all three of our children live in Sanford, while our packinghouse is in Orlando. The boys go back and forth every day, and our daughter works for Bayer Corporation in the animal health division.
So anyway, we—my wife and I—both feel that our time growing up in Sanford, and spending our entire life here, except for those maybe three years, has been good, and as good as any place we could have settled. I don’t know that we ever considered moving from Sanford, neither of us. But I guess that’s pretty well the story.
Morris
I have a couple questions, sir.
White
Sure.
Morris
Okay, sir. You talked a great deal earlier about the paper route you ran as a kid.
White
Right.
Morris
Was that a great experience for you? Because you spent a lot of time discussing how you met and saw a lot of things.
White
Oh, well, sure! There’s a little story that goes along with that, was we delivered The Florida Times-Union, and we had about 11 or 12 paper boys. And you’d go up and down. Each one of us had about a hundred customers.
Morris
Okay.
White
And you’d go up and down the streets, and there was a policeman that walked the streets at night named Harriet. And Mr. Harriet had a dog that went with him, because Mr. Harriet walked up and down the alleys, and all the way generally throughout the whole downtown area. Well, a friend of mine who lived four or five houses from me had a dog, and the dog would go with him on his paper route. Well, it seems as though Mr. Harriet’s dog would jump on him and bite him and all of this sort of stuff. So my friend bought a collar that had, oh, pieces of metal like a nail sticking out the side—sticking on it. Well, he sharpened those up. And we’re all sitting there one morning, waiting for him to come with his dog. He’d always come around this corner—First Street and Oak Avenue—and he would come around that corner. Well, we’re waiting to see Mr. Harriet’s dog jump on this dog’s neck with those sharp barbs, and he did and he went off just howling. And Mr. Harriet came out. There was a bakery there, and everybody—paper boys—we would go in there five o’clock in the morning and get day-old donuts, and so would Mr. Harriet, and he come out of there just raising Cain about who hit his dog. But that was interesting.
And I guess when I was a senior in high school, I had a car route, and I went to Monroe, Paola, went all the way to Wekiva River, and back up through Monroe. And a man named Bass—he was the last one on my route. And he was a farmer, so he told the paper manager that I was just getting there too late, that if I couldn’t get there five o’clock in the morning, that he wasn’t going to take the paper no more. So I had to rearrange my route so I could get him first instead of last. But that was interesting in that too. And the people—there’s still people around that deliver papers. We talk about it, every now and then, when you see somebody. But that was good experience, really was.
Morris
And you did that from when you were younger all the way through high school, sir?
White
Not all that time, no. But I got a paper route when I was 11 years old, so that’s gonna put me in the fifth grade. And I remember having a paper route in the seventh grade. I don’t think I had any until I was senior, from the seventh until that time.
Morris
Oh, okay, sir.
White
Because like, a lot of—something very interesting. I worked in a grocery store.
Morris
Okay, sir.
White
And you worked Thursday morning from about four o’clock in the morning, and Friday afternoon, and all day Saturday, for four dollars and something. Well, a friend of mine was caddying at the golf course, and he said, “Oh,” you know, “I don’t work but 4-5 hours and I make more than that.” So I went out and started caddying. So I caddied for several years.
Morris
Oh, okay, sir.
White
Because you made more money. You carry those bags around. If you did it twice, they called it “double looping,” you made more money than you would at the grocery store. But anyway, I think everybody sooner or later worked in a grocery store.
Morris
I don’t think that’s changed much, sir.
White
Huh?
Morris
I don’t think that’s changed much. I’ve worked in a couple grocery stores.
White
No. No. I see the kids in there now, and they’re—course we didn’t stay there until all night long like they do now. They put up stock now at night, and we didn’t do that. Anyway, it was good. Good times.
Morris
All right. You mentioned you were in the Navy, sir. How long were you in the Navy for?
White
I was in the Navy for one hitch. I was a quartermaster.
Morris
Okay, and one hitch is, uh...
White
One hitch is when I was on something called “minority cruise,” and that you means you join after you’re 18 and you get out when you’re 21, instead of a flat three years—four years, whatever it is. And I joined when I was a senior in high school, and this wasn’t too long after the war. This would be in 1950.
Morris
Okay.
White
And the war was over in ’45. So anyway—but I was a quartermaster. A quartermaster is someone who does signals and navigation, that sort of thing. And a fleet oiler is different than a tanker. A tanker hauls fuel from one place to another, and a[sic] oiler refuels ships at sea when you’re both underway—you’re both moving. And that’s what an oiler is. You still have oiler today, and always will, because you need it in the middle of the ocean just as you do alongside a dock. And I liked that—and I may have stayed in longer except the ship was going on Operation Deep Freeze, and that was in Antarctica, and I wasn’t going there, ‘cause I’d heard the stories about it before. Everything’s full of ice and all of that. Anyway, that was my military experience.
Morris
Did you travel anywhere on that, at that time, sir?
White
Oh yeah, sure. We went—first time when I went on board there, we went to New York City, which of course, here I am. Never been to New York City. We stayed there for like two days. Then we went to the Caribbean [Sea], down to South America to the Azores. Just that type—wherever. Maybe just sit out in the middle of the ocean waiting on a convoy to come that needed fuel. I mean, that was our job.
Morris
Right, sir. Did you enjoy your time in the military—the Navy?
White
Sure.
Morris
Just didn’t want to go to Antarctica.
White
I didn’t want to go to Antarctica, and probably if I’d have stayed in longer than that, I’d have stayed. I would have stayed to retire. But I didn’t, and not been disappointed in that at all.
Morris
Okay, sir. You also mentioned you worked with civic duties for a while. So tell me a little more about that.
White
Well, 1963, I started civic-type stuff. Well, I was a Boy Scout. And I’ll have to go through the Boy Scouts [of America] first. But the Boy Scouts—I was a[sic] Eagle Scout, and I worked at summer camp as a waterfront director-type person. I guess I was 16 then, maybe 17. Sixteen and seventeen. I worked two years, one at Camp Wewa over in Apopka. The other one was Camp La-No-Che. Excuse me, Camp La-No-Che wasn’t open then. See, that’s 50 years ago, and most people never heard of Doe Lake [Recreation Area], and Doe Lake was in Ocala [National] Forest. And that was a Boy Scout camp and I worked there at that time. But I was a[sic] Eagle Scout, and that was a big deal to me. And we didn’t have many Eagle Scouts around here. Well, around anywhere. That was good.
Morris
I’m sorry, sir?
White
Yeah. You asked a question before that. What was that?
Morris
Your civic duties, sir.
White
Oh. Well, in the Boy Scouts, believe it or not, we actually did a lot of things civic-wise. But I was president of the Sanford-Seminole County Jaycees[4] in 1963, and the Jaycees were very active at that time.
Morris
The Jaycees, sir?
White
Junior Chamber of Commerce.
Morris
Gotcha, sir.
White
Okay. [laughs] And—very active. Had maybe 150 members, and had maybe 150 projects. These were things that, uh—and that was a big time in my life. For instance, we had a Christmas parade that we sponsored and worked. That was the big project for the year—the Christmas parade. And the year I was president, we had 11 bands, and nowadays, if you have one, you got a bunch of them. We had a hundred people working, doing whatever it took to make the parades. But it was always that way. And I have paperwork to that. So—I say “paperwork”—we made booklets of our projects. Some of them. I don’t have all of them. But it was a[sic] active time for people up to the age of 36. When you were thirty-six, then you were no longer…
Morris
Junior.
White
Invited, I guess, to be a Jaycee. And then, I was president of the Seminole County union of the American Cancer Society, and I was president of the Greater Sanford [Regional] Chamber of Commerce. Prior to that, it was the Sanford-Seminole County Chamber of Commerce, and I was a director for 25 years of the Chamber. So, you know, there were those. I was a bank director for 15 years. Served on the board of Seminole State College, as vice-chairman of the board for however many years. I don’t remember. So that was civic-type stuff.
Morris
Okay, sir. Sounds like you were very busy.
White
Yeah. I was busy. I was busy. Knew a lot of people. Most of them are dead now, but, uh, and I’ll join them before too many years. Maybe tomorrow [laughs].
Morris
That’s why we’re getting this down today, sir.
White
Get that out today. Okay.
Morris
Could you tell me a little bit about your family? Your wife’s name, how you met her, and then your children’s names.
White
Yes. I’d gotten out of the Navy, and just got out really, and me and another fellow went to Leesburg High School—to a football game. This was in September, before—after—I had gotten out of the service in August, I guess. Anyway, this girl was a cheerleader, and had black hair. And afterwards, you always used to have dances always—and out of town also. And back then, the girl cheerleaders would always go to the dance, and so me and this fellow went also. And I met her, and then—from then on, had a few dates with her. And anyway, three or four years later, we got married. We have two sons. One’s 54, one’s 53. Have a daughter about 44—something. And the boys run the packinghouse. Have for 20. I say “running” —that’s only partially, mostly. They’ve—that’s 29 years. And a daughter that works for Bayer in the animal health division. Anyway. I guess that’s it. And got grandchildren [laughs].
Morris
How many grandchildren, sir?
White
Well, three. Three boy grandchildren. And one of them works for the city in Palm Coast, and the other one works for the car place—Gibson [Truck World]—down here, and the other one’s thirteen. He goes to school.
Morris
Okay. Is it okay if we get your wife’s name and your children’s names?
White
Paulette. Paulette. My wife’s name was Paulette Casen. It’s Paulette White, of course. And the children are Ed [White], Ted [White], and Judy [White]. And that’s their names.
Morris
Ed, Ted, and Judy?
White
Yes. Eddie, Teddy. [laughs] Yes. Ed, Ted, and Judy.
Morris
Do they still respond to Eddie and Teddy?
White
Oh, yeah, sure. Sure, sure, sure. Matter of fact, people their age call them Eddie and Teddy. But, you know, they have a lot of friends, since they’ve lived here.
Morris
Their whole lives, sir?
White
Yeah. They’ve lived here except when they went to college. Eddie graduated from Stetson [University]. And Judy graduated from [University of] Florida. One of the grandsons graduated from Florida and has a degree in architecture. I was telling a story to a fellow about architecture, and I was telling him I knew nothing about computer[sic]. I do know how to turn it on. But I said I have a grandson that has a degree in architecture, and he has never picked up a pen or a pencil. It’s all down on the computer, every bit of it. It’s kind of hard for people my age to think that—that you’re actually gonna draw a plan for a building with a computer, instead of a pencil [laughs].
Morris
I gotcha, sir.
White
Yeah.
Morris
The, uh—one of the things you mentioned earlier that really caught my attention was you said a lot of farmers had cars. Is that—do I remember that correctly?
White
That’s correct.
Morris
Were a lot of the farmers well-off, or was there...
White
During certain periods, they were well-off. Yes. And it was told to me that a farmer in the late ‘30s could make a living on ten acres of celery, and that’s not very much, but he couldn’t do that today. Same token. I’ve sold—I’ve sold property to people that owned an orange grove and did all of the work their self, and they had 20 acres, and they made a good living. They had a car, and made a good living on 20 acres. But they did all the work their self. They didn’t have somebody else doing the work.
Morris
Right.
White
And so, you know, there’s[sic] certain jobs that—if you’re cut out for it. Not everybody’s cut out to be a farmer. A lot of people are going to have to start thinking about it though, because somebody’s got to grow food to eat.
Morris
Sir, and I do like to eat.
White
And everybody likes to eat.
Morris
Yes, sir.
White
And the truth of the matter is there’s a lot of fussing going on now. People don’t like—well, one thing is dust. They don’t like the dust that farmers create when they plow their field. That’s the EPA—Environmental Protection Agency—and they want to stop that. Well, I don’t know how you’re gonna eat if you stop farm dust. But I’m talking out of bounds here.
Morris
Still interesting to hear, sir.
White
But that’s the way farmers feel. Although we consider ourselves farmers, we’re not farmers in the cattle business or corn business. We’re in the citrus business. But I guess you could say we could be in the citrus business without growing any of our own. We could buy it from somebody else, and pack it, ship it, and that would work, you know. But we do it all.
Morris
Okay, sir. My last question, if it’s all right with you, could you just give me a brief overview of how you actually grow citrus—the process for it.
White
Well, you plant a tree, and you grow it, and it ends up and blooms, and has fruit on it. That’s about it. It’s, you know—it’s just like any farming, and I think that’s what you’d have to say. It’s, you know—you’ve got to prepare the soil, if you want to call it. In the citrus business, you plant small trees—three feet tall—and after about five years, they have some oranges on them. Not very many, but enough, considered that you’ve got some fruit. And the maximum is about 20 years. And during this period of time, you fertilize them, and you prune them, and you just generally take care of them like a baby.
And things change in the business, such as—used to plant them 35 feet apart, and 35 feet in all directions, because the way that you get the weeds down was with a disc or harrow. So you went up and down the rows in one direction, and then across the rows in another directions to kill the weeds. And nowadays, you don’t do it that way. You plant them 10 feet apart in a row, and then you use chemicals to kill the weeds. And you also hedge them, because you don’t have that 35 feet. You have 10 feet. And you got big machines with big, round saws on it—three foot—and they’re spinning, and you go up and down the rows and make a hedge out of it. And that’s what’s really changed in the citrus business in the way that you grow citrus.
Plus, used to—you didn’t have very many ways to keep the fruit clean. Everybody wants to have a blemish-free piece of fruit. It don’t work that way. A friend of mine who used to disc and take care of the growth—first one I ever had—named Carl McWaters. His family was in the business, and he was a caretaker. He said, “Well, Mr. White,” said, “You know, my father worked for that packinghouse over there in Umatilla.” And whenever they had a—one of the diseases—not a disease—one of the bugs that you have. It’s called a “rust mite.” And a rust mite makes fruit look rusty. And he said, “Whenever we’d have a bad rust mite year, we’d go ahead and ship them up north anyway, and called them ‘Golden Rusty.’” Which made them sound a whole lot better than a rusty piece of fruit. So that was kind of interesting. Because they didn’t have any way to kill those rust mites.
And nowadays, you know, it’s an entire—oh, I don’t, what I want to say it. Crop protection, whether it’s citrus or other crops. It’s a whole world of taking care of those problems. In the United States and the agricultural business, the idea is to get rid of a problem instead of live with the problem. And that’s true with a lot of things, not just citrus. But, you know, if you got rust mites, you know—“Well, let’s get rid of those rust mites.” So you got 50 different companies out there trying to have chemicals to get rid of them. In a lot of countries that grow citrus, they don’t do that. They just live with it. And I see nothing wrong with that. But that’s kind of interesting too—how that kind of thing works. But, you know, the companies—some of the largest companies in the world are agricultural chemical companies.
Morris
Okay, sir.
White
Anyway.
Morris
That was it for my questions, actually. Did you have anything else you’d like to say?
White
No. Not really. I may have said a whole lot more than I should have, to start with. But, uh, anyway…
Morris
Well, sir, it’s all great. Thank you very much, sir.
White
All right. Nice to talk.
Miller
My name is Mark Miller and I am interviewing…
Kinlaw-Best
Christine [Kinlaw-Best].
Miller
Christine. Alright. And this is March 2nd at the History Harvest at the Public History Center—2013.
Kinlaw-Best
Okay.
Miller
And we just want to ask you a few questions on what brought you here or what is it that you are sharing with us.
Kinlaw-Best
I found the notice on Facebook and so…
Miller
Very nice.
Kinlaw-Best
Uh-huh. I had you know—how you click, like, on the Public History Center and so I saw the notice on Facebook and saw the call for the local artifacts for the school. And so I gathered up some of my things for this school and brought them down.
Miller
And what are there—what are some of your things?
Kinlaw-Best
I brought—my whole family went to this school from the time it was built—when it opened its doors in 1902. Two of my older great-aunts though moved away, so I don’t have their report cards, but I did bring report cards of one of my great-aunts[1] from 1907, when the building was just five years old.
Miller
That is exciting.
Kinlaw-Best
A brand new building. So I have her report card from then. And I brought a picture of her so she would kind of go with the report card. And then her younger sister—my grandmother[2]—attended here also. I brought one of her report cards that’s a hundred years old. It’s from 1913, when she was here in the third grade. And I brought my uncle’s[3] report card from 1914, so that’s 99 years old [laughs]. And then my mom and dad both went here. I happen to actually have one of my mom’s report cards from here that actually, you know—it’s like the rest. It’s Sanford Grammar [School] and that one’s 80 years old. It’s from 1933. And then I went here all through elementary school, in this building.
Miller
Oh, wow.
Kinlaw-Best
Fifty years ago. So, our whole family went through here. And by the time my kids came along, of course, obviously the school had then been closed and not in use anymore as an elementary school.
Miller
Did your whole family collect this or was this your idea?
Kinlaw-Best
Ah, it was—well, my aunt had her things, and when she passed away, my mom got it. And when my mom passed away, I got it, so it’s been as, you know—generations have passed on, then it’s all made its way down to me.
Miller
So this has been a personal experience for you.
Kinlaw-Best
Uh-huh.
Miller
The entire school. Everything about that.
Kinlaw-Best
Yes.
Miller
Is there, uh—for instance, what are the significance of these items to you personally? I mean…
Kinlaw-Best
It’s, um, my family [laughs]. That’s the best way I can think of it. Its significance is preserving my family’s stories. Just as my granddaughter now is excited about things, because I went to Seminole—well, we go back once again, Seminole High School, which is here. It was Sanford High School first, but my granddaughter likes to brag that six or seven generations have all gone to the same high school. And, of course, Daddy went to Seminole and played football for them. I went to Seminole and now my 16 year old granddaughter is at Seminole High School. So, you know, that’s what these mean to me, is, ah, carrying on the family.
Miller
Yeah. You—I think you have a unique story. I’m sure there’s not too many along those lines.
Kinlaw-Best
Uh-huh.
Miller
We want to thank you very much for bringing this in—it’s a tremendous asset. We want to thank you for that.
Kinlaw-Best
You bet.
Miller
Is there anything you might want to add about your experiences or anything you had in this school—I mean of this sort…
Kinlaw-Best
One thing I’d like to try to think of and remember is when my great aunt was going here in 1907, it was only just this building. The two wings didn’t exist yet and so when you—even though this looks so big from the outside, when you stop and think about it, you can see why they needed to add the wings almost immediately, because there really aren’t that many classrooms in just this building. Because so much of it was upstairs was auditorium and, of course, even when I came here, we didn’t have a lunch room in the building, we had to go out and into the back and have lunch out back.
So my grandmother told stories of—I was just telling one of the girls in there—when she came to school here, of course, there was not a “motorized” school bus. And so the horse’s hooves—it was a horse-drawn buggy thing, like a big trailer that had rows of hard seats and a top on it and it had canvas sides that rolled up. And Grandma used to always talk about how you could tell when it was time for the bus, because Sanford’s cobblestone streets—you would hear the clup, clup, clup, clup, clup of the horses coming and the kids knew to run outside and the bus would pull up and you got in the wagon. If it was hot, the sides were rolled up. If it was raining, the sides were rolled down and they drove you here to the front of the school and dropped the kids off. And then the “bus-driver” [laughs], with his horse, would literally park out back here, right behind the school. And he would just hang around all day. And ‘cause school was only a few hours then too, they only went about three or four hours a day here. So then when they were finished, he—the kids just all loaded back up in the wagon and he proceeded to drive all around Sanford and let everyone out again in front of their house. So that’s a special memory to me of Gram telling me about “the Bus” for this school.
Miller
Everybody had their chores to get home to and…
Kinlaw-Best
And most everybody worked in the field. Everybody was farmers here, in Seminole County. So you had to get home and work in the fields. They also went to school like four months out of the year.
Miller
Oh.
Kinlaw-Best
That was a whole school year. So the rest of the time you were helping your parents with farming. So…
Miller
Was it the same with you when you attended here? Was it…
Kinlaw-Best
When I attended we were already back to the whole full long day. Uh-huh.
Miller
Alright.
Kinlaw-Best
So, I say that like “long day.” I guess every kid thought that about their school then. So anyway, that’s mostly about it.
Miller
Well, with the wings and the rapid growth, it is a testament to how quickly Sanford was growing.
Kinlaw-Best
Right.
Miller
And your family was definitely part of that.
Kinlaw-Best
One thing I did want to just mention to you—because for so long it was called just “Sanford Grammar”—but this school had a long period it was called “Westside Grammar” [Elementary School] too, and I know a lot of people think maybe that it might be a different school, but it’s not. This—this building was west—all through the 60s was called “Westside Grammar,” because at that time we had Eastside Grammar, which is the little bitty school over on Palmetto [Avenue] and we had Southside. All of them had original names. Westside, Eastside, and Southside. But Southside is over off of Thirteenth Street and so this building was called Westside Grammar for at least through the 60s, when I went here. All of my report cards and even the class pictures are all stamped Westside Grammar. So I just wanted to put that in too, so there’s not any confusion if ya’ll look at those and go, “Oh, that’s not Sanford Grammar,” ‘cause it is. It is still Sanford Grammar. It’s just for a while there was called “Westside Grammar.”
Miller
So Eastside was the original grammar school? Or…
Kinlaw-Best
Ah. Eastside is the one—the little—it was the Tajiri Arts Building, it’s on Ninth [Street] and Palmetto. And that one was built around 1880. That building is still standing. And that was the original and only elementary school and that’s why this was the high school and that was the elementary.
Miller
Oh. Okay.
Kinlaw-Best
But it was called “Eastside Primary.” and Southside is still standing. It’s a retirement home now—in the school. And this was Sanford Grammar and then Westside Grammar and then back to Sanford Grammar again. [Laughs]. So…
Miller
Which is the Little Red Schoolhouse?
Kinlaw-Best
That’s the one I’m talking about. Over on, uh-huh…
Miller
Okay.
Kinlaw-Best
Eastside Grammar. I have pictures of it with the big sign across, over the door that says Eastside Primary. But all the celery farmers and the kids from the Eastside,like going out towards the beach—towards New Smyrna [Beach]. That’s—those kids went there and the west-side farmers, which were out First Street, like going towards Seminole Towne Center Mall. That’s where I grew-up. You came here, because you were the “westside kids,” and then the kids to the south of the city went to Southside.
Miller
Oh. That’s great!
Kinlaw-Best
So…
Miller
If you have—want to share those pictures, you know, you said you have pictures of these time-lines. Anything of that nature, where you’re interested in, especially someone of such great experience with the school system in this area.
Kinlaw-Best
Okay.
Miller
Excellent.
Kinlaw-Best
Okay.
Miller
Well, thank you very much.
Kinlaw-Best
You’re welcome.
Miller
It was tremendous and we really appreciate everything.
Kinlaw-Best
Thank you. You bet.
Miller
Alright.