Thompson
Tell me a little bit about how you and Jack [J. Bridges] met.
Bridges
Jack was a former attorney for my first husband, Victor Green. They don’t call him Victor Green. He goes by his middle name “Mapes.” Mapes and I were his clients.
Thompson
Is that his mother’s maiden name or something like that? That’s an unusual name.
Bridges
Yes, because they didn’t want to call him Victor or Junior, so they called him by his middle name. He’s known here in Sanford. Everybody knows Mapes, but he was another generation. so the Greens and the Bridges were here in Sanford and they didn’t live too far from one another—3 Grandview Boulevard,[1] which is the former airport. So Alfred Green worked on the railroad with Jack’s daddy, and I think Alfred Green was the supervisor. He was higher in rank than Alfred. We have always seen Jack as our attorney. [laughs]
When my husband passed away in [19]91, we were all living in the same neighborhood, and Jack was divorcing in ’91 too. I think he and Beth [Bridges] separated when they were [inaudible] April, and they got divorced in ’91. My husband died in December of ’91. A year later, Jack and I met, and he was patrolling the neighborhood, but he has a very commanding voice. I had always heard that he was a very good trial lawyer, and he would speak to me with that tone. I would have to remind him that I’m not his client and that we’re not in a courtroom—to tone his voice down.
Thompson
Well, Jack was a fabulous attorney. I always heard it. I was never a client of his, but if anybody was ever going to be in a trial with him, they were scared.
Bridges
I think it was because of his practice with Mac [Cleveland]. They gave him all of the cases that came along, so he wasn’t afraid to get his hands dirty, so he tried them all.
Thompson
Okay, so Mac Cleveland wasn’t a trial lawyer? Did he do more estate work?
Bridges
I don’t know anything about what he did, but I know Jack was a junior attorney at that time, and Mac would let him do a lot. I think that in ’91, they split up the firm. Mac wasn’t practicing that much and Jack was doing a lot of cases ,so he told him he’d like to split it, so that’s why the name of the office used to be, “The Law Office of Jack J. Bridges.” Jack didn’t do too well either. He was on his own with…
Thompson
Oh, a little bit of drinking.
Bridges
But later when he quit that, his business picked up.
Thompson
I didn’t realize that his business went down because of his drinking.
Bridges
Yeah, it was bad. When his business picked up, even the lawyers would call him so he would represent them. He would do it.
Thompson
And then he was city commissioner.
Bridges
Originally, he wanted [inaudible] to run city commissioner and all this is new, because he had two positions before. So he told Jay [Bridges], “You should take this.” He wasn’t too sure if people would accept him. I’ve heard other people ask Jack, “Why didn’t you become a politician?” Jack says he couldn’t have, because people could not accept him, because of what he was.
Thompson
Did he not have confidence?
Bridges
I think his past—it took him a little while before—we got married in ’98, and he ran for city commissioner in 2005, so it took him a couple of years. He wanted to get established and let people know he really meant what he said.
Thompson
I remember that Mayor [Linda] Kuhn just loved him to death and everything he said was golden.
Bridges
Well, he knew—he knows his business and he always looked ahead for the city. Remember the parades every Christmas? They always had parades, but Christmas was the only time that families would join in and throw candy. After I went to one of the parades, he told me to quit giving out candy. and it was because of me that they had to quit giving out candies. Jack was sitting on my right and I was on his left, and when I throw candy it’s kind of hard for me to throw this way, because I’m right-handed. So since he was in my way, some of the candy fell and he was very afraid for the kids. He told the mayor that they couldn’t allow it any longer, because they would sue the city if any kids came by.
Thompson
So he was always looking out. You did a really good thing.
Bridges
No, I was embarrassed. I thought, It was just because of me. I felt bad. Then they had that “splash pad.” Do you remember that they had that “splash pad” when they built that? Everything went well. They had it built and all, and Jack thought about it and says, “Have you ever thought about the lightning that comes with this Florida weather? We have no insurance and if the kids get hurt…” So they had to look into that and I think they got insurance, but then they made sure to close the splash park. when the rain was coming.
Thompson
I know they do that at [Walt] Disney [World] at one of their wave parks. Because I remember being there one day, and they said we had to leave. And we thought it was weird, because it was sunny out, but they said, “No. we have radar and there’s a storm six miles away.” Everybody had to leave. and it was the worst storm in the world when it came.
Bridges
This was just a splash pad, but if lighting comes—so he warned the city. When he sat on the Board, he and Nicky always wanted to move Sanford forward and not backward. Sometimes I can see that he gets very frustrated. They move forward one step and move back two steps. He says he doesn’t enjoy that part.
Thompson
Does he have any stories about his famous cases or when he was a kid?
Bridges
No, he doesn’t share the cases that he tried, because of client-attorney privilege. They’re confidential, so he can’t share.
Thompson
Well, I’m thinking more of personal stories that he might have shared with you of growing up. Anything about his parents or about how Sanford was when he was growing up?
Bridges
I can’t think of too much right now, but he was raised very poor. He said he was very quiet when he learned in school. He always made better grades and the teacher would compare his grades to his brother’s, and his brother didn’t like that. His teacher expected his brother to make grades as good as Jack’s.
Jack was always quiet in school and I think it was because of his background. and I told him that there’s nothing wrong about being raised poor. A lot of the rich people were poor when they were growing up. I say, “At least you’re humble and honest.”
Thompson
Well, tell me stories about you when you were a little girl.
Bridges
Let me finish one part of Jay and Jack working on the Ritz Theatre. He was the usher, and then he became a chief usher. And when he’s home, he can watch movies over and over again and I have seen those movies so many times.
Thompson
He can watch the same movie over and over?
Bridges
That doesn’t bother him. He’ll watch different movies. If it comes on, it doesn’t bother him. He’ll watch it.
Thompson
Probably because he was an usher at the theatre and he watched the same show over and over again [laughs].
Bridges
Then he’d pick up little words from the movie. He’d say, “Buzz off.” Don’t you remember they’d say that in that part of the movie? I couldn’t remember what show it was and say, “Okay.” [laughs].
Thompson
So he would quote movies to you? [laughs].
Bridges
I’m not Americanized. We weren’t raised with televisions, you know? We don’t have American movies. We’ll watch every now and then, but we don’t have that. I don’t understand the humor and all of those things, because I was raised in Singapore. They taught us the King’s English. When we were at home, we spoke Hainanese. It’s one of the dialects. They’re so many—Cantonese, Hakin, Taichu, etc. If they write in Chinese, I can read it and tell you what they’re saying, but…
Thompson
So the written word is the same, but the dialects are all different?
Bridges
When I went to school, we would have to learn English, so we wouldn’t speak English at home. Only in school. We have Indian neighbors now that are Muslims. We don’t understand what they speak at home, but if you speak English, we could all communicate. We also had to learn Mandarin as a language, just like you do Spanish here. In my later years, when my brother went to school, half the subjects were taught in English and the other half were taught in Mandarin. They wanted everybody to be bilingual.
Thompson
So Mandarin was the official language there?
Bridges
It was the official language for all Chinese people.
Thompson
When you were in school and you learned the King’s English, did you have an English professor from England that taught you?
Bridges
No, they were all local, but they went to English schools. We[2] got our independence in ’57. That was the year I was born, so when I went to school in the ‘60s, we were all taught by English teachers.
Thompson
Then you came to the United States?
Bridges
Yes, I married my first husband, and I met him as he was working in an oil field in Indonesia. When he had his break, he came to Singapore. My friend introduced me to him. That was Mr. Green.
Thompson
Oh, so he worked in the oil fields? See, I thought he was agricultural. I don’t know why.
Bridges
He was in charge of all the heavy equipment—the ship, the boats, the crane, the fleets, etc. He was the supervisor and the Indonesians loved him and did the work.
Thompson
What did he do when he came back home?
Bridges
When oil prices went bad in the ‘80s, it was much cheaper for them to hire the English and the Australians than to hire the Americans, so they didn’t want to renew the work permit, so they sent us home. When they hire the Americans over there, they give us vacation time one week every six months. Another six months later, and we have 35 days to come to the states, and they pay for it. Other families that have kids in elementary school—they have their own schools over there. They bring the teachers over there. But when they go to high school. they have to send them to Singapore. If they want to come to college, they come stateside. Then the mother gets to come here twice a year, and the kids fly over there three times a year. All of this is paid for by the company. They pay for the schooling too. They provide housing, cars, gasoline. The house is furnished, etc.
Thompson
Which company was that?
Bridges
Roy M. Huffington, Inc. was the company. Have you heard of The Huffington Post? It was from Houston, Texas.
Thompson
Oh my goodness.
Bridges
Yes, they were big companies.
Thompson
Boy, they sound like they were wonderful to their employees.
Bridges
We didn’t have to pay for the house. We didn’t have to pay for the utilities. If a light bulb needed to be fixed, you would just get on the phone and call them and they’d come and fix the light bulb. The pay was about $65,000 tax-free. That was the incentive. The only thing you have to pay is food and clothes. My husband would tell me, “Enjoy.” I didn’t understand, because we didn’t have a home here, but then we came back and I saw what he was talking about.
We had our own bowling alley and our own swimming pool. We had our own commissary too. We could buy our own food. Every other month, a shipment would come in off the coast of Texas.
Thompson
Now, did he have to go out on oil rigs? Could he come home at night?
Bridges
No, it was close to home. That was the second job. On the first job, he had to go away. On Monday morning, a bus would come and then they’d fly them over on a helicopter. On Friday evening, they’d come into town [laughs].
Thompson
The honeymoon’s every weekend [laughs].
Bridges
Yes, they had to do it that way, because they figured it was cheaper. For a while, they would work two weeks and then they’d have one week off. All the families would stay in Singapore. We were civilized there, but when you moved to Indonesia, you had to stay in the jungle.
Everybody has to get along with everybody, so what the women would do was, they would have cooking class. Have coffee once a month. I would go to Sears[, Roebuck & Company] and buy this sewing stuff and bring it over there. I like the felt stuff. You know how you sew on it? I don’t like the glue stuff. I like the sew-on like stockings and stuff. Some people were good at cross-stitching and needlepoint and they’d teach. That’s how we entertained one another.
We had cooking classes too. Sometimes you get to know your neighbor well. She was from Houston, Texas, and she taught me how to cook American food. She’d write me a recipe and I’d go back and look at the ingredients and call her and ask, “What does half-and-half mean?” [laughs] I would ask her, “What does ‘a stick of butter mean?” That’s because our butter would come in one pound, and she said, “You have to cut it length-wise.” I’d say, “Okay.” That was a big help, because that prepared me for when I came to the states.
A lot of people overseas don’t ever lock their doors. You can knock on the door and come in. The coffee pot’s on, you pour yourself a coffee, and sit down. Over here, I don’t know my neighbor. We feel so lost, but our friends are scattered all over the United States. We would get in a car and go all the way out to Texas, Louisiana, Kansas, etc.
Thompson
To visit all your friends who were in Indonesia with you?
Bridges
Then they’d come and reciprocate, because of Disney World.
Thompson
I bet you had a lot of company with people going to Disney World. It’s wonderful that you made such life-long friends.
Bridges
Even now, I still communicate. There’s this lady in Boise, Idaho. She’s a widow now. She used to do needlepoint and she’d even do weaving. She loved to lace stuff and she would crotchet. She must be up in age too. We write once a year. We send Christmas cards.
Thompson
Well, it almost sounds like the military. My parents were Navy and they made life-long friends with the people in their stations. When they got out of the service, they always kept in contact.
Bridges
I know of a lady from Texas who would babysit her neighbor’s children. When the wife went out of town, she’d take one kid, go out, and get some dental work done, and leave the other kid with her husband. Now, you know men can’t cook. so she would take the kids when they got out of school and she’d feed the husband too. They would do the same, so they were all very close. Once you get to know a few families, they’re all very close.
Thompson
When you came here did you find a family that you could be friends with?
Bridges
No, I don’t know them very well. I kind of miss that.
Thompson
There’s good Oriental contingency in Seminole County, I know. Not very…
Bridges
I don’t practice that anymore. I don’t cook the food anymore. I don’t long for the Chinese food anymore. Not like some Vietnamese that I know like [inaudible] fiancée. They always have to have their rice. They always have their Chinese food. They cannot sub, but I can, because my first husband was American and now I’m with Jack. I say, “If I don’t have bread, I’ll have potato.” [laughs].
I found out that they have their Chinese squash and everything, but the zucchini is almost the same stuff. You can use it to sub for the Chinese squash. But they have to have it exactly the same as before.
Thompson
Isn’t that strange that they can’t adjust?
Bridges
I have a friend in North Carolina and she could adjust. There’s some who can’t and they go back. They say, “America is not for me.” It’s a cultural shock. I couldn’t do that, because I made up my mind, because I married an American. I said, “I married an American. This will be my country and you have to adjust.”
Thompson
And you learned how to make your first Southern food. What did Mr. Green say when you made your first Southern food?
Bridges
He didn’t like my biscuits. He said they were too hard. [laughs] Everything we had to do was from scratch. We didn’t have the stuff that you do. It’s very convenient.
Thompson
Yeah, you can have it frozen. “Oh, you want biscuits? Here’s half a bag.” [laughs].
Bridges
I used to make my own bread and hamburger buns. We used to invite our neighbors and ground beef meat was very expensive. They’d say, “These hamburger buns are so good.” My husband would say, “That’s because they’re homemade.” In Singapore, the bread didn’t last very long, and the flour would have weevils in it, and American women would teach me, “You take it and sift it twice.”
Thompson
To get the weevils out. Why were the weevils—because they’d been in storage?
Bridges
I think that it’s because when they shipped it, they shipped the old stuff to us. By the time it cleared customs, the humidity would get to it. We were so excited to have American stuff. We loved Cheetos in a can [laughs]. We would all grab American stuff. We would grab toilet paper, because we didn’t like the local stuff. It was stiff. It wasn’t soft, so we’d buy a whole bunch. We figured that if we left the country another family would buy us the stuff. When we knew there was a new shipment, we’d run to the coast and load up, because you don’t know when the next shipment would come in.
Thompson
So you were doing “bulk” before Sam’s [Club] ever showed up [laughs].
Bridges
Over there we just buy a bunch of stuff. We buy our meat. We buy the whole piece—the whole pork loin. We would go to the supermarket, buy it, and tell them to freeze it. We’d tell them when we’d want it picked up, so they’d wrap it up and put it into boxes. Then they’d tie it and tape it and all, and we’d pick it up and we’d bring it to the hotel and tell them, “We want it in your freezer.” Then we’d tell them at what time we’d come to get it and our bus would come to pick us up and take us to the airport.
Thompson
To go from Singapore to Indonesia?
Bridges
The flight would last two hours and 20 minutes. Then we’d rest and catch a 45-minute flight. If you pack them well and you only open them once, you should be pretty good. Prime rib was $15 a pound. This was back in the ‘80s.
Thompson
Oh my gosh.
Bridges
We’d usually try to bring a few pieces of meat. We’d live on seafood a lot over there. When you buy fish, you have to buy the whole fish—head and all—and the fish 50 cents a kilo.
Thompson
A fish for 50 cents? Amazing.
Bridges
Usually the fish is about two to three pounds, but it was fresh. We’d also have a lot of shrimp and lobster too.
Thompson
I bet you know a lot of great recipes for shrimp, lobster, and fish, don’t you?
Bridges
No, I didn’t have to cook very much over there. I buttered them a lot and broiled them. Seafood was abundant. [inaudible] I would go to the local market. They would always have some trouble with us, because they don’t encourage you to go outside the city.
Thompson
Was it dangerous?
Bridges
It wasn’t dangerous, but if an American like you—a Caucasian—goes there, you’ll be surrounded and you’d be shot. They don’t like Americans. For me, I’m Asian with an Asian [inaudible], so it’s a little bit better. I learned that when you carry your basket to town, you just let the boys carry it so they don’t bug you. You pay them 100 rupees. That’s 10 cents and they walk with you while you buy your groceries and they put it in a cart for you.
Thompson
So if one of the boys that you see on the street comes, he attaches himself to you and then none of the boys bother you? That happened to us in the Dominican Republic. A boy attached himself to my mother and he went everywhere with us throughout the whole day.
Bridges
This was only in the market though. That way you get rid of them, because they all want to help you, and you end up paying extra money. I also found out that we’d pay the lawn boy $5 a month and we’d pay the maid $15. $15 is the maximum, and they say $10 is the going rate. One of our doctors from Texas would pay $15 and the maid would carry laundry from the city every day. After they worked for the Americans, they’d go work for the nationals expecting to get paid $15 a month, but the nationals would only pay them $10 maximum. They’d say, “That’s not fair.” They’d tell us we couldn’t spoil them.
Thompson
You see? We’d look at that as entrepreneurship. If you do the best, you get paid more.
Bridges
Right. They also liked blue jeans, so what we’d do is come to the states and buy blue jeans and give it to them as a Christmas gift. That’s why they like working for the Americans.
Thompson
Well, your husband was very right when he said, “Enjoy it.” [laughs].
Bridges
Well, I didn’t understand, but now I do.
Thompson
What was your first shocking experience when you came to the [United] States? Did you come in through Texas?
Bridges
No, we came in through Maryland. Yes, because his Army friends stayed at Fort [George G.] Meade, so we’d stay with our friends. The men would go somewhere else and the women—was very nice. She took me to the commissary. I said, “I want to go to the commissary.” I walked in and I said, “Oh, look at the eggplant. It’s so nice. Look at the lettuce.” Because our lettuce is terrible-looking, but we still ate it, because that’s the best they had to offer. She just looked at me. [laughs] I said, “I want to buy this. I want to eat this.” Of course, we had more money than they did, so we paid for the groceries, but she let me pick what I wanted. The green peas were so green and narrow, but over there they were kind of bulky.
Thompson
So the first big shock was the groceries? I bet the food was a lot cheaper too, wasn’t it?
Bridges
Yes, because any canned food that came over into Indonesia were three times more expensive than here.
Thompson
Did you ever go back?
Bridges
I went back to Singapore, but not to Indonesia. It’s not the same for me anymore. I guess I’ve been gone too long. The heat and the humidity is like Florida weather in the summer. I can’t take it. [laughs] Jack always wanted to go there, but he never made it. I went back in 2004, when my brother had just died of lung cancer. And Jack wanted to go but he couldn’t. so I said, “I’ll go.” Do you remember the bird flu[3] that went around? They said that if I came back, I’d have to be in quarantine for 10 days. Jack was a little sick at that time. I think I wanted to go in November, but I went in the spring.
Jack said he always admired the Chinese culture. He handled one or two cases and he said he had yet to see a broke Chinese person. I was raised Chinese. During the New Year, you have to pay off all your debts. We didn’t owe anything. Jack said, “What about your mortgages?” I said, “Well, I guess that’s one thing that you can’t pay off, but everything else has to be paid off.” Another thing is that you never lend to friends or family, because you’ll never get it back. That’s very, very true. Jack would say that the Chinese and Egyptian cultures are very, very old but he likes them more.
Thompson
It’s also a very good practice. You’re not in debt. So many Americans are in debt.
Bridges
Yeah, but when I was talking to Jack’s mother—she’s old school. It parallels what the Chinese do.
Thompson
Yeah, not to be in debt, because she lived in the [Great] Depression. She’s of that generation.
Bridges
Yes, and she’s very frugal just the way I was raised.
Thompson
What did your parents do?
Bridges
My mother was a homemaker and my father was the chief electrician, so he was gone a lot. My mother raised us, and when my father came back, we would like it, because he would spoil us. He let us go to school early, and my mother didn’t like that. We started school at 7:30 and were off at 1:00. The next year, you go from 1:00-5:00. That way they use the school, so the school isn’t sitting there empty.
Thompson
Did they always have a group in there?
Bridges
Yes, all the time. They alternated it so one year a student goes in the morning and the next year he goes in the afternoon.
ThompsoAnd then it’s hotter. It’s cool in the morning and hot in the afternoon.
Bridges
Yeah [laughs]. That way the school is used many times, so that they don’t have to build that many schools. Property is very expensive in Singapore. It’s like Hong Kong. Everybody lives in patmas. They call it “flats.” The government will build them and let you buy them. and you could use your Social Security number to buy them.
Thompson
So they’re like condos, and they’re subsidized by the government. And anybody can buy one?
Bridges
Not everybody. They have three or four bedrooms, so it depends on your family’s size. The government will tell you if you’re eligible.
Thompson
So you can’t just have four bedrooms for two of you [laughs].
Bridges
And you can tell them what location you want. Not a problem. If they build, you put your name in and they were very cheap. I remember my mom got a three bedroom for 15,000 in the ‘70s.
Thompson
Wow. That was a wonderful deal. Even back then.
Bridges
The dollar was like two to one. That’s cheap. Now, you can’t buy a patma for that cheap, but it’s subsidized by the government, and the government wants everybody to live better in wooden homes, because they take up a lot of land. They don’t want that. The island isn’t that big. It’s 25 miles across from east to west and 15 miles from north to south, and it’s got a population of two million people. It’s the cleanest city in the world.
Bridges
The crime rate is very low. They will not tolerate drugs. It’s a law and order country. Do you remember that Michael Fay went down there and got caned? He got caned, because he took the stop sign down, and his family got sent home.
Thompson
Yeah, I had heard that about Singapore. That was an international incident.
Bridges
[Bill] Clinton, the American president, pleaded and the government said, “This is a law and order country.”
Thompson
And there are no exceptions.
Bridges
This lady brought drugs in. I don’t know if she’s Australian or what, but they asked the Queen of England[4] to plead and they said, “No.”
Thompson
The Queen couldn’t help. Well, just think—if it’s 25 miles long and 15 miles wide, it’s the same size as Sanford’s 22 mile square. so your whole island is probably the size of Sanford. It has two million people there and we only have 54,000. People don’t understand how lucky they are to live in a place like Sanford.
Bridges
Right, because over there it’s very competitive. You have to do well in school. If you don’t do well in school, you get a terrible job. My mother always said, “You see that road-sweeper? That man that sweeps the street? That’s where you’re going to end up. Digging the ditch.” [laughs] Then when they came up with that machine that cleans the street and she said, “See? They don’t even need you anymore.” [laughs] She pushed education, because both my parents were raised on a farm on Hainan Island in China. Do you remember where our plane landed in China? It got confiscated by the Chinese government.
Thompson
No, I don’t remember that.
Bridges
An American plane landed there and they wouldn’t let us take our plane home. They had to go through and check, because they wanted to check out what the Americans had in equipment and technology.
Thompson
So it was probably a military jet that crash-landed there or something?
Bridges
I don’t know how it landed there, but I know it landed there. The Chinese government got involved and I remember saying, “It’s Hainan Island. That’s where my mom and dad were born.” My mother said that the communist government would give you two pieces of material and that’s all you get. She patched them and they would look like embroideries, and she was very frugal raising us.
Thompson
So it was two pieces of material per person in the family or just two pieces?
Bridges
It was two pieces a year. That’s all you get. We always had hand-me-down clothes because my aunt was from American Families, and the kids had all the clothing, and we got to pick what we wanted to wear. so if I said, “I don’t like this dress,” she wouldn’t throw it away. She would pack it up and send it to China. It was for her nieces, you know?
Thompson
Yeah, so whatever you didn’t like went on to another family.
Bridges
Right. She wouldn’t give it to the neighbors or friends they could use it. She would send it to her family. My mother—she didn’t work, because she raised us. but she knew that education was very important. When we’d come home, we’d speak the dialect. We didn’t speak English. And we’d bring our report cards and she’d say, “What does it say? And “You’d better tell me the truth, and if it’s not what it says here, you’re in trouble.” [laughs]
Thompson
So she taught you how to be honest.
Bridges
She didn’t mind us going to school, because that was the only way we were going to do better than her, and many Asian communities are the same way. A lot of my cousins are in Virginia. My aunt does not speak English and my cousins speak broken English, but their children are very educated. They’re honor students. They’re doing real well and they’re taking care of their mom and dad.
Thompson
Well now, did you ever have children?
Bridges
No.
Thompson
So you have step-children from…
Bridges
My first and second husbands.
Thompson
Oh, both. That’s wonderful. Do you see them?
Bridges
Originally, [inaudible] lives in Orlando and the other two live in Pennsylvania, but now they’re back in Florida. They love the Florida weather. We brought them to Florida. We took them to Disney World. they always have a place to stay, and they loved it so much. They got tired of the snow.
Thompson
Who wouldn’t be? I like Florida too. My sisters wanted me to move to Tennessee, and I said, “You know, I like Florida. I love you, but I don’t love your weather.” [laughs] She said, “But you have hurricanes.” I said, “But I don’t have snow.”
Bridges
Well, Jack’s son was born and raised here. Jack only had one child.
Thompson
Oh, is that right? Is it John?
Bridges
No, Tory [Bridges] is his child. Tory’s mother, Mary Carly, is in the insurance business on Lake Mary Boulevard when you pass—that’s Jack’s first wife.
Thompson
Oh, Debbie or something?
Bridges
She married Brent Carly. He owns the insurance business on Lake Mary Boulevard.
Thompson
I know Mark Carly. He’s Brent’s brother. I know him better than I know Brent. I believe it was you, Jack, and Jack’s brother that made it out to the restaurant one time and I was able to meet her once.
Bridges
Yeah, she’s in assisted living now—Spring Lake Hills on Lake Mary Boulevard, across from the forest. She has a bad case of dementia and she gets very excited. She can’t sit down for too long. I think that’s part of the disease. When I went to see her right after Jack died, she kept asking me where Jack was and we told her. And her cousin, Linda, told me that when she went to Jack’s service, she thought she was at her husband’s funeral.
Thompson
Oh, so her dementia was really bad.
Bridges
When I see her she asks me how Jack is and I hate repeating it to her, because it hurts me to tell her to tell her that Jack’s gone, because I’m grieving and it’s hard for me, so I say, “He’s okay.” Then later she says, “Oh, he’s gone isn’t he?” I go, “Yeah. he’s gone.”
Thompson
So sometimes she will remember that he did die.
Bridges
Now instead of saying that Jack is coming to take her home, she says that her mother is coming to take her home. They go back. They revert to their childhood. She doesn’t remember her other son, Stevie [Bridges]. Stevie does not come around too often.
Thompson
Well that’s the one everybody compared to Jack, so he didn’t feel too good about it.
Bridges
Yeah, but they always favored Stevie a lot. Stevie stayed at the house with them, but he later moved out. Maybe they catered to him, because Jack was a family man. They figured he was married and Stevie never got married, so they took care of him more. I don’t know.
Thompson
What kind of work does Stevie do?
Bridges
Well, he went to college and got his degree from University of Florida. I don’t know what he majored in, but he decided he didn’t want to use what he learned in school, so he worked for a welding company and became the chief welder.
Thompson
Yeah, because I remember seeing him in work clothes, like a working person—blue collar.
Bridges
Right. They told him they would give him a desk job, but he said no. He preferred to be blue-collar. That’s what he wanted. Then they let him go and he was applying for other jobs. I don’t know. It didn’t work out.
Thompson
So he’s not working at all now?
Bridges
He turns 60 in February and he said he’s going to wait and draw retirement and Social Security [Insurance].
Thompson
Well, he’s got two years until he can do it.
Bridges
He has a big payout and Jack was trying to tell him how to invest. and I told Jack, “If he was smart enough, he would have gone back to work and worked ‘til he was 65, and let that money build and draw better Social Security.” That’s what I’m doing.
Thompson
Well, I worked ‘til 62, but my husband was very ill. So I just went in and said, “I’m closing the restaurant.”
Bridges
I don’t blame you. You had your hands full. That’s different. Being a caregiver takes all your energy.
Thompson
It does. I had two years with him. We were very lucky. On July of 2008, I walked in the door and said, “We’ve got parties that we’re doing on the 4th of July and we should be out of food by next Wednesday.” I said, “We’re closing the doors of The Rib Ranch forever on the 8th and 9th of July.” I put a big sign up saying, “Come and say goodbye.” Everybody came and got barbecue, but on July 2nd, the guy who owned the business right next door to me made me an offer for my property, and I took it and we had our closing 15 days later. I had two years completely free to be with my husband, because he couldn’t drive anymore. He was going blind. He had a lot of physical problems. I spent a lot of time going to doctor’s offices.
Bridges
It’s like what Jack said towards the end. his social calendar towards the end was all doctor’s appointments. Jack got sick in 2009. He was in this hospital and then they told him they had to send him up to Shands[?][5], because he had abdominal blockage. They said, “You need surgery. There’s a tumor right there. That’s why it’s doing that. Shands might be able to get you in.” The doctor that tried to get him in just got back from church and he said, “There’s a bed available.” So he was happy, and I packed four days’ clothes. stayed there three and a half weeks. He wouldn’t let me come home. He said, “Don’t leave me.” He was very lonesome.
Thompson
He needed you.
Bridges
I had a lot of vacation time, so I called Penny Fleming and she said, “Take it.” I was planning on coming home and working Monday through Friday and then go up on weekends, and she said, “Well, whatever you want.” Then I decided, “Well, maybe half a day on Friday.” She says, “That will be better and you won’t have to drive during the night.” Then I told Jack what she said and Jack said, “No.”
Thompson
He needed you there.
Bridges
He wanted me there.
Thompson
Well, the thing I found out about, when your husband’s sick, is that even though I depended on him being smart and understanding everything. He was being stoic, but he wasn’t comprehending what the doctors were saying, because, internally, he was panicked. He would say, “What did he mean by that?” I would have to research it and find out what the doctor meant, because he wouldn’t tell him he was scared.
Bridges
Jack was the opposite. Jack was very sharp and he still had a sense of humor. I remember they almost put him on a ventilator one time up in Shands. Scared me to death. Jack didn’t like too much medication, but they gave him medication and he crawled to bed. And when he came in, there was this person sitting in his room and he woke up and said, “Oh, have you met my warden?”
Thompson
Who was the person sitting in his room?
Bridges
It was the nurse. And they had to explain that he was trying to climb over the bed. When he was up there, he would tell me to do things he wasn’t supposed to do. He wanted a Slurpee and he said, “Go get me one.” and I’d say, “The doctor says you can’t have anything.” He’d say, “If you don’t get it for me, then I’ll go down to get it.” I said, “Then what do you want?” He said, “Strawberry.”
At that time, he had that abdominal problem and they had to pump it out. There was a little container behind him and the doctor could see the red from the strawberry and he panicked, “Oh, it’s blood.” Jack said, “No. I just had strawberries.” [laughs] The doctor shook his head. Jack said, “My mouth is very dry, so I asked her to get me that.” The doctor said, “How about changing the flavor?” Oh, he was something else.
Thompson
So what’s happening with you now?
Bridges
I’m just back to work. I’m just doing my routine and putting in my time working at the Sheriff’s Office until my retirement. I’ve got 10 years to go. I’ve already got 14 years. I hate to retire so early, because what am I going to do for health insurance? If I retire right now, I’ve got eight years. 62 is early retirement. They penalize me five percent for every year under. I figure I don’t have much going right now, so I just try to keep myself occupied.
Thompson
I think that’s a good thing too. If I didn’t have all this, I’d be going crazy.
Bridges
But I sure miss him though, because every time I go to the parades, I see all the people and politicians and it kind of depresses me a little bit.
Thompson
Well, what do you think he would have said about everything that happened with Trayvon [Benjamin Martin] and the city?
Bridges
I don’t think he would have let the case go as far as it did, because he would know how to tell them. Who is it [inaudible]? He said he didn’t know the legal procedures or the steps to take. He said it wasn’t right that [Bill] Lee didn’t arrest [George Michael] Zimmerman. but if you can’t prove anything yet, how can you arrest somebody? There’s no evidence.
Thompson
I thought it was really strange that people don’t understand that the police investigate, but it’s the state attorneys that say they have a case and have them arrested. My illustration was, “Haven’t you seen Law & Order?” Half the show is about what the police do and the other half is about what the attorneys do.
Bridges
Well, I think that on the legal side, you have to have evidence to show before you can convict and arrest a person, but there’s nothing to prove him guilty. People were so upset. They wanted them to do it now and it got worse and worse. When it came to the commissioner, people were saying Commissioner Lee wasn’t doing his job.
Thompson
And none of those commissioners…
Bridges
They don’t understand the legal system.
Thompson
It would have been good if Jack were still there.
Bridges
Linda would have been good too, because she worked at the state attorney’s office. It would have helped the city.
Thompson
Maybe if we had had a better city attorney. I mean, I don’t know Lonnie Grout, but maybe a stronger criminal lawyer mind would have helped. Who knows? Jack is really missed.
Bridges
Yeah, I feel like he served. The Lord wanted him home, and I feel like Jack knew he was sick but he did not tell me. He knew what was going on. He was talking to Dr. [inaudible] about it. Remember when they put the shunt in? He [inaudible]. I think when they pull it out too fast it can create a clog. That’s what my friends told me. Linda [inaudible] said that was a clog when she saw his hand, and she was right. His hand just got bigger and bigger like my thigh. I asked the nurse, “What happened?” She said, “Oh, nothing wrong. We’re just trying to stabilize.” When Dr. [inaudible] was talking to him, I came in at the tail end of the conversation. Dr. [inaudible] said, “If we have to, we’ll remove it.” I found out after he died by talking to Dr. [inaudible] that he knew he was going, but he didn’t tell me.
Thompson
I don’t think my husband knew he was going.
Bridges
He didn’t want me to be upset, and I feel that it’s not fair. At least he could have prepared me, because he went in on a Friday, assigned Saturdays all over the weekend. I had to bring him his Jell-O mixed with fruit. He didn’t want the hospital Jell-O. He wanted iced tea mixed at home. He wanted chicken noodle soup. He didn’t want the can one, so I’d bring the hot broth to the hospital for him to eat. I saw him Saturday, Sunday, and I called Jack’s son about Friday or Saturday to let him know, because we’re working people. We’re always so busy. Maybe we would have more time on weekends. He could have come to see his father, but he didn’t come to see his father until Monday. Jack’s secretary was there on Monday too, and she said, “What is Tory doing here?” I said, “I told him he could come see his father, but I didn’t tell Cathy that she could come.”
During one of our meetings in the room, the doctor came in and he was a very good cardiologist and I liked the doctor very much. And she started asking him questions and the doctor felt—I could see the look on his face. he didn’t want to be interrupted, and he looked at Jack and me. He knew who I was, but I didn’t introduce myself. He didn’t like it. I said, “Next time, I won’t let her come to the hospital to see him, because what if the doctor has to come in and she interrupts everything?” That time she called me from outside the hospital and says, “Can I come inside?” What can I say? She’s already at the hospital, so I told her to come up. After everybody had seen him, he said he’s tired and that everybody has to go.
Thompson
This was Monday?
Bridges
No, it was Monday night. I said, Okay. I guess he wants me to go home too so he can rest. Everybody left and I was packing my stuff and he said, “No. you stay a little bit.” I stayed and he said, “Give me a hug.” He wanted me to kiss him. I think he knew. He must have known it was getting close. so on Tuesday I worked half a day. I was going to do a whole week. On Tuesday, I got a message from the doctor saying, “Come right away.” I dropped everything.
Thompson
So you had just gotten home and then you had to go back and he had died?
Bridges
No, I was heading towards the hospital to bring his stuff, but when I got the message I just went straight and left everything. He said, “Come right away,” but he was already gone by the time I got there.
Thompson
Well, you can be angry with him, but…
Bridges
But we had a good life. It was a short time with him, and Jack and I had an age difference of 11 years. We both had November birthdays, and we’re 11 days apart. When he died we were married 11 years and 11 months.
Thompson
Oh, 11 is a really important number then.
Bridges
When he started having the cancer in December, he said that he would like another 10 years, but if God would give him five he would take it.
In December, he showed me he wanted to go to church. I’m a converted Catholic. Every now and then he’d go to the church. He got very bored. I was surprised he went, and that was the last Christmas.
Thompson
Well, it’s tough when we lose them like that.
Bridges
Jack changed his whole life around from what he was. He went to the opposite end of the spectrum.
Thompson
He really did, because he was a rounder. He was a party guy, wasn’t he?
Bridges
He was. I remember when he told me, “When we get married, I like to go out with my boys once a month.” But he never did it after we married. I let him run as far as he wanted to, but he never did. He always wanted to come home. He knew he had a home to come to. I think that when he was struggling with his alcohol, there was no one to communicate with him emotionally. With my military upbringing, he learned how to be soft to people and love them. I think he felt most sturdy and he said I was his rock.
Thompson
You were the stability that he needed.
Bridges
He turned his life around after that. He learned how to give and found that it was very rewarding and he turned into a public servant. He got what he wanted. He had the intelligence to go along with serving the city. I’m very happy for him. I hated seeing him go, but he achieved what he wanted to do in life.
Thompson
I think that’s great. I had a different situation with my husband. I’m so happy that he’s gone, because I loved him so. He was a sports lover and he loved Sports Illustrated magazine. He had to read about his sports. He told me on Wednesday, and he died on a Saturday, “Cancel my subscription to Sports Illustrated.” That just floored me. I think now that he passed away, that if he had lived the two years they said he would, he would have been blind. He was in renal failure, so if he lived through that, he would have been on dialysis. He had diabetes and he was losing his legs, so this is not the life he would have wanted. This wouldn’t be living. This would be torture. He wasn’t a man who had the will to live through anything. He had his comforts. I’m so glad he was able to go the way he wanted to go, before these awful things came. He was a very proud man and very private. He hated having nurses having to help him go to the bathroom or go take a shower. It got to me that he had to go through that.
Bridges
The last two years of Jack’s life, he was sick and he knew it, and he cried. He said he didn’t deserve it. He was throwing up and there was nothing but liquid coming up all the time. I had to empty his can, because I didn’t want him to smell that all the time. He was already sick. I made sure everything was close by and the less he moved, the better he felt. I’d get his medication, Sports Illustrated magazine—whatever he needed. He said he didn’t like being sick like that. He would say to me, “You’re too good for me.” and he’d cry.
It got me emotionally, and when I’d get to the kitchen, I’d cry. I’d almost be in tears, but I wouldn’t look at him. He’d ask, “Are you alright?” I’d say, “I am.” Then I’d go to the kitchen and cry, because I didn’t want to show him I was weak. But he was ready to go.
Thompson
Mine was too. At the time I was mad at him for leaving me, but I got over it. Now I’m just grateful that I had him for as long as I did and that he’s not suffering.
Bridges
My first husband went very fast. He was up and walking and he fell. One of his blood vessels burst. They called it a “pontine hemorrhage,” because of the pons. It’s like an aneurysm. I was kind of mad, but they say—I was shocked. I didn’t know he was going to go. There was no goodbye or anything. Then God was graceful enough to put God in my life. I had only been in this country for six years—’85-‘91. I didn’t know my way around. I had to learn how to drive when I got here. And my sister and brother-in-law were very good to me and helped me with the funeral arrangements. Then Jack came into my life and I said, “Oh God. At least you could have prepared me.” I didn’t know he was going to get sick. It takes a lot to be a caregiver. You’re not prepared, but that’s life. Jack went so fast, no one expected it. We thought he was doing so well when he came from Gainesville, and they detected cancer and he went for his radiation [therapy] and chemo[therapy]…
Thompson
How long had he been back from Gainesville?
Bridges
He had surgery in August.
Thompson
Yeah, but when did he come home? Because when he came home, we had an appointment and I think he died the next week.
Bridges
He died in March.
Thompson
So he wasn’t in the hospital in the spring?
Bridges
Yeah, he was in the hospital. He went in on Friday afternoon and he died Tuesday afternoon.
Thompson
I’m thinking of a month before that.
Bridges
He had been in and out of the hospital then. They had to put him in hydration, because of his radiation and chemo. They said he got very dehydrated and he had been in and out several times.
Thompson
Well, I talked to him on the phone and he was either in the hospital—it might’ve just been the day before he died. I can’t imagine that though. But I talked to him. maybe a week was either right before he went into the hospital or the day before he died. Because I was completely shocked.
Bridges
I didn’t expect him to go into the hospital. Maybe you talked to him that Monday and he was fine, but then the next couple of days, his arm just got worse. By the end of the week, I figured he better go to the hospital, because doctors are not around on weekends, so I needed to admit him. I couldn’t get a hold of his doctor so that’s why he went in on a Friday.
Creative Sanford, Inc. is a non-profit organization created to manage Celery Soup community theater productions. The original idea for the Celery Soup project came from Jeanine Taylor, the owner of a folk-art gallery on First Street in Sanford, Florida. Their first production was Touch and Go, which took several years of planning. The play focused on how the people of Sanford overcame obstacles throughout their history. Some of these stories include the fall of Sanford's celery industry, the Freeze of 1894-1895, and the closing of Naval Air Station (NAS) Sanford in the 1960s. Richard Geer and Jules Corriere, partners from Community Performance International, were in charge of assessing oral histories, converting them into scenes for the play, and writing original songs. Director Geer also used an all-volunteer cast from the local community, many of which were not experienced actors.
During the process of producing the show, Creative Sanford decided to rehabilitate an historic building, the Princess Theater, which was located on 115 West First Street and owned by Stephen Tibstra. The Creative Sanford offices are housed in the Historic Sanford Welcome Center, located at 203 East First Street. As of December 2013, the Executive Board for Creative Sanford included President Brian Casey, Vice President Trish Thompson, Treasurer Linda Hollerbach, Secretary Dr. Annye Refoe, and Founder Jeanine Taylor. The Board of Directors consisted of Cheryl Deming, Juanita Roland, Wendy Wheaton, and Dr. Connie Lester, a professor of history at the University of Central Florida. Honorary Board Members included: Glenda Hood, former Florida Secretary of State and Mayor of Orlando; Valada Flewellyn, a local poet, author, and historian; and Jackie Jones, a local entertainer and arts advocate.
]]>Creative Sanford, Inc. is a non-profit organization created to manage Celery Soup community theater productions. The original idea for the Celery Soup project came from Jeanine Taylor, the owner of a folk-art gallery on First Street in Sanford, Florida. Their first production was Touch and Go, which took several years of planning. The play focused on how the people of Sanford overcame obstacles throughout their history. Some of these stories include the fall of Sanford's celery industry, the Freeze of 1894-1895, and the closing of Naval Air Station (NAS) Sanford in the 1960s. Richard Geer and Jules Corriere, partners from Community Performance International, were in charge of assessing oral histories, converting them into scenes for the play, and writing original songs. Director Geer also used an all-volunteer cast from the local community, many of which were not experienced actors.
During the process of producing the show, Creative Sanford decided to rehabilitate an historic building, the Princess Theater, which was located on 115 West First Street and owned by Stephen Tibstra. The Creative Sanford offices are housed in the Historic Sanford Welcome Center, located at 203 East First Street. As of December 2013, the Executive Board for Creative Sanford included President Brian Casey, Vice President Trish Thompson, Treasurer Linda Hollerbach, Secretary Dr. Annye Refoe, and Founder Jeanine Taylor. The Board of Directors consisted of Cheryl Deming, Juanita Roland, Wendy Wheaton, and Dr. Connie Lester, a professor of history at the University of Central Florida. Honorary Board Members included: Glenda Hood, former Florida Secretary of State and Mayor of Orlando; Valada Flewellyn, a local poet, author, and historian; and Jackie Jones, a local entertainer and arts advocate.
Reisz
My name is Autumn Reisz, and I’m here with Mark Miller, and we are asking the wonderful Trish [Thompson] a few questions today about Celery Soup and Creative Sanford[, Inc]. Um, if you just want to take a second and introduce yourself and we’ll get started on the questions.
Thompson
Okay. I’m Trish Thompson and I am, um, former president of Creative Sanford for four years now, and vice president, and theater manager. Um, when we do our interviews we tell where we are and what the atmosphere is. So I’ll say we’re in my office and, um, the atmosphere is quiet and we only have an air-conditioner going that could possibly interrupt.
Miller
Okay.
Thompson
So I’m ready when you are.
Miller
Alright.
Thompson
Start asking!
Miller
Well, thanks. Okay, um, what is Celery Soup?
Thompson
Okay. Celery Soup is Florida’s Folk Life Play. It’s a story that is comprised—a play, excuse me—that is comprised of story gathering which we have done, which is a lost art, and we, uh, get them from the citizens of Seminole County[, Florida] and hire a playwright. They put the stories together and that becomes Celery Soup: Florida’s Folk Life Play and we’ve done three performances, um, with the first one being Touch and Go, the second one being Made - Not Bought, and the third one being Remade - Not Bought. And, um, there—it went over so well, we’re—we’re just—we’re real happy with it and we’re already in—working with the playwright to get another one on the road for next year. So, uh, Creative Sanford is the umbrella organization. We are the producers of Celery Soup: Florida’s Folk Life Play.
Miller
Oh, very nice. Um, uh, what is the mission of Celery Soup?
Thompson
Uh, the mission of Creative Sanford—now you’ve got to know that we are the 501(c)(3) —Creative Sanford is. The, uh, actual production is Celery Soup—that’s the branding—is Celery Soup. It’s always Celery Soup. Every year the name of the play will change, but when they say, “What’s happening with Celery Soup: Florida’s Folk Life Play?” You know, then you tell ‘em whatever the new thing is that’s happening. Um, I’d have to read you our mission.
Miller
Oh, alright. That’s fine. No, that was excellent.
Thompson
Yeah.
Miller
Yeah. So, um, how did the idea for Celery Soup develop?
Thompson
Okay, the idea for, um, Celery Soup was, through our, um, person—the—the people that we knew in Colquitt, Georgia. And so Jeanine Taylor, our founder, went up there, met the people, saw the show and, um, and decided to bring it to Sanford when she moved her, uh, business here. And it was to help the economy and, uh, that was the first thought was that, you know, it was going to be an economic driver, bring people to Sanford, and of course help her business and other businesses in town. And she got the mayor and other people interested and they went up, saw the show, said, “Yes. This would be great for Sanford,” and that’s how it came to be in Sanford.
Then we spent three hard years with interviewing people and getting the community to understand what we do. We hired, uh, uh, Celery Soup—I mean, excuse me, Swamp Gravy—to come to Sanford and teach us how to do the interviews. Uh, they gave us the booklet that we use and, uh—just on a side note—uh, Freddie [Roman-Toro] who is—was our intern this spring, he rewrote it and updated it and got it where, um, it would fit in more with the RICHES [Regional Initiative for Collecting the History, Experiences, and Stories of Central Florida] Mosaic Interface that we’re gonna be using with UCF [University of Central Florida]. [phone rings]
Miller
Alright. How did you change the Swamp Gravy model to fit the needs of Sanford?
Thompson
You know, that’s really interesting, because they’re—was that your question?
Miller
No. That’s not.
Thompson
Alright.[laughs]
Reisz
But Mark [Miller] really liked it.
Thompson
Yes. Okay. Now when you’re interviewing, you know, you might not want the subject to know that you [laughs]—so you’re gonna learn along with me, um, the um—we been—what was the question again? I’m sorry.
Reisz
Um, how did you change the Swamp Gravy model…
Thompson
Oh, okay.
Reisz
To fit Sanford’s needs?
Thompson
Swamp Gravy’s model—2,000 people—very small town, very isolated—and they had to draw from churches and, uh, they went way outside the area to bring people in and they had to bus them in to, uh, to come to the play. And everyone in the community was involved in it, because, you know, 2,000 people and you’re puttin’ on a production with a hundred people, you know, that’s—that’s almost everybody in the town, at one point or another, has been in the play.
So for us, we’re in Central Florida. we compete with [Walt] Disney [World], the I[nterstate-4 corridor. um, we wanted to reach out to The Villages. that’s very difficult to reach out to The Villages, because they already have so much, um, entertainment and what have you that it’s right there at their fingertips. And they don’t come to Orlando very much. We found that out through the United Arts [of Central Florida], uh, president at that time, Margot Knight, that it was very tough to get The Villages, and so we’ve made so inroads into that and we do have one person who brings people in from there, but it’s, you know—that is, —that is harder.
For us, we’re more sophisticated. Um, the area there was—you could do just about anything for, you know, nothing, because there were no regulations and no, you know—the city didn’t make ‘em do this and that. So when we started, we had a lot of legal and financial, um, and city rules and regulations that we had to comply with. And I would suggest to anybody who is gonna to do something like this: do not cut corners on your legal and your—those kind of responsibilities in— in getting your, um, work-up with your city, so that your—you know, you’re not gonna get, quote, “a free ride,” but, you know, you’ll have a good working relationship with the city, if you comply with what they want done. So…
Reisz
Um, how has how has Creative Sanford and Celery Soup—how has it evolved from when you first started the program?
Thompson
Oh my goodness. It has really evolved. When we first started we wanted to put on a show, Okay? One production a year and we were gonna—oh, someone was gonna give us a building. We’ve gotten a whole big song and dance of, you know, where you were gonna put it on. Well, we couldn’t find any place that would allow us to put it on. And the one theater that was in town, it was: number one, 500 seats 450 to 500 seats. And it had the fourth wall, which of course we didn’t know anything about, but it—the fourth wall was an invisible wall between the audience and the cast. and so, um, the community theater, one of the things that they require is that it is community involved and, you know, so it’s, um—it’s theater in the three-quarter is what we have. We don’t—we ended up renting a space.
So number one, we have rent now and it’s not a free space. And so when we rented it, we had to sign a lease. And when we signed a lease, that changed—I mean, it was like the before and the after. The before lease and after lease. [laughs] Because then we became a theater, and the theater has to support itself. So you can’t have one play in the fall and the spring maybe—two plays—and maintain a theater. You know you got your rental. You got all your utilities you’ve got to pay. So we had to have other shows.
So we first started with a group that wanted to have a home and they were called “The Princess Players.” And so they put on five performances during the year and, you know, we produced them. And so we did make money through that and were able to pay the rent, but so now after three years, since 2010, we made another big leap in that we realize that the theater was as important as Celery Soup. If we don’t have the theater, we’re in the same boat as everybody else, with searchin’ for a place to put your thing on and it’s gonna cost you a tremendous amount of money to be that little person who’s begging for a place to have a show. And after being in the theater, we didn’t want to go back to being in a gymnasium or someplace like that.
So we co-op the theater and we have three organizations that co-op with us and they own the theater for those periods of time. So that helps pay the rent. Phew, there’s something here. So that pays, you know—that gets our rent paid.
So then as time goes on, in the next year or two, we will be able to do some of the other things in our mission that we are not able to do now and, uh, the—the quantity that we would like to do and that helps other organizations that don’t have money that give them a place to showcase their art. Um, we’ve done art openings. We’ve done, uh, concerts. we’ve done, uh, with the Humanities Council—with the Dreamers and Schemers and they’ve asked us to come back in 2014 and do it again—standing room only—uh, we do The Holocaust with the Holocaust and Interfaith Council. So we’re making all these organizations that are becoming partners with us—that they’re doin’ it this year, that maybe next year, you know. and we’ll find places for ‘em to rent the theater to them for a minimal amount of money—cover the expenses—and they’re able to put something on and we’re able to provide the community with different kind[sic] of art— all different types of art.
So we’re doin’ Celery Soup now. They’ll be doin’, uh, Sleeping Beauty and Grease, and the co-op people are doin’ these things. One of them is a school, so they do things through the summer. and then in August, I believe it is, we’re goin’ to do Spam-A-Lot. So it will be our first time to do, um—produce a Broadway show. And it’s a Tony Award-winning and that’s what we want to do. So we’d like to do Spam-A-Lot one year and whatever the next one, as soon as the rights open up. We want to do the most recent, like I believe next year Wicked, off-Broadway—you know, from Broadway—will be open.
So this is a goal that we want to bring quality entertainment that people can afford to go to Wash—New York [City, New York] or Washington[, D.C.] or wherever. They can see really quality work, right here in Seminole County. They don’t have to go to Orlando. They don’t have to go to the arena, you know, and all that kinda thing.
Miller
Excellent. Um, so how do you collect the stories for the plays?
Thompson
Okay. Uh, we advertised. We had the Swamp Gravy Institute come down and we had a whole group of people come in and learn how to do the interviews. and then they’d ask their friends, “Can I interview you?” So it started out friends of the people who are to interview and moved out from there. We went, um, Serenity Towers, which at that time was called Bram Towers, and we did practice interviews with the older ladies and gentlemen and—and, uh, the—it was kind of a learning experience for everyone. And then we also, um, then put ads in the paper.
And when we first got started we did a thing called, uh, Talks from the Stalks, is what we called it—like a stalk of celery. And, uh, the newspaper[1] was nice enough that we would put in little excerpts from interviews that we’d done. And so they’d do a little blurb—we’d hopefully have a picture of the person that spoke—and then a little piece out of their story. And then it would be the quote advertisement call to tell your story. So that’s how— that’s how we got started, with just grass-roots, asking your friends, and moving out into the community.
And the most difficult part was being accepted by the black community, because there was a lot of, um, [sighs] negativity in both directions, in that, um, the black community was told that we were exploiting them by some people, who, for some reason didn’t understand what we were doin’. There’s a fly in here. Um, and then there was some on the other side that didn’t know how to relate to the black community. So it was a give-and-take and over the last six years.
This year we were invited to Hopper Academy. Um, this was the first year we had been so lucky to have two reunions” The Hopper [Academy] and then the Crooms Academy [of Information Technology] we’re going to do in December. So that’s the, that’s a real plus for us to be able to have made the inroads into the black community—that they trust us.
And, uh, if you know anything about Sanford, we’ve just gone through an awful trial[2] that brought up a lot of really bad memories from a lot of people—black and white. And, uh, it’s just, uh— it’s just a miracle that we’re such a good community that we overcame the outside pressures and didn’t succumb to anything that they wanted to [laughs]—they wanted us to have a riot or something. I don’t know what the media wanted, but, uh, they didn’t get it, because we’re not that kind of a town. We’re a good town. We’re—we’re working together.
And I think we have helped over the last six years to help the community realize that, you know, all that outside stuff that made ‘em appreciate that we really are a closely knit community, much closer than was realized and yet there’s still a lot of—a lot of energy and a lot of negativity that—that is like post-traumatic stress disorder. You know, it’s—you think of the worst thing that ever happened you think—you in your life. It flashes [snaps] to you immediately. You know exactly was the worst thing in your mind that ever happened to you. And that may be, this—this—this trial just triggered. That throwback to that worst feeling of inadequacy and—and negativity that they ever had. So, you know, we—we have to appreciate that and realize it.
And I’ve talked to people who have said, “Oh, why don’t they just get over it?” And I say, “What’s the worst thing that ever happened to you?” “Oh, that I lost my child,” or, you know—I mean that’s horrific. And I say, “Well, get over it.” Whoa, did they get mad at me? But, I say, you know, you’ve got to understand—and it was somebody that wanted to interview, but they didn’t have the empathy or the sympathy or the—the feelings that were needed to be an interviewer in this organization. So, when you’re doin’ this, I’d say to anybody: be sure that the people who are interviewers have an open mind and/or can keep their feelings under—you know, under the radar—under the cover.
Miller
Well, that brings up a question of when you’re asking the stories, what sort of themes—you ask for themes? Or how do you go about…
Thompson
Well, we’re…
Miller
Pitching the story.
Thompson
We started with a theme that was, uh, perseverance. And this was in 2010, and so our first story was about, uh, how Sanford and the community had overcome all sorts of natural, um, disasters. We had floods, and we had, uh, fires, and we had—the weather froze—and, I mean, uh, the weather was very cold and the fruit and vegetables and the trees froze. You know, so it changed the whole economy of things. The, uh, Navy left Sanford. Big, big, big, big problem. and Sanford’s overcome and actually gotten better from all the different changes that have happened. So that was what—it was perseverance, and we used as a sub thing, openin’ a can of worms [laughs]. So we—we just—“So what is,” you know, “What were you mad about? What did you not like? What did—what did ya get over on somebody?” You know, we had all kinds of questions that we tried to pull out of people that were deeper than just—“Who are you? Where did— where did you go to school and what do you do? “
Miller
Well, you did something like, uh, what you’re, um, talking about, perseverance and…
Thompson
Mmhmm.
Miller
You know, can of worms. How do you integrate that into the play?
Thompson
Well, that is what you have your playwright for. Now we’re, uh, setting up now and working with UCF with this, um—we have, um—May, um—what do ya call ‘em? With, uh, the keyword—keywords. So it might be perseverance. It might be love. It might be hate. it might be alligators or animals, or, you know—so, you’ll have keywords and the, um—um, the—the writers can key in that word, and then up comes the transcription from the play of that—of that—that might fit that story—may might fit that thing.
So, uh, next year’s going to be a comedy. and so we’re, you know—we’re gonna have a theme that’s going to be outta—we don’t know yet—outta, uh—that hadn’t been decided. Uh, that’s how you do it is you decide on your theme and you go to your playwright and say, “I want you to write about this theme and here are your keywords and you can go to all these different” —so maybe when we do an interview—the interview usually lasts an hour and a half, um—in that hour and a half, you might get 10 good stories or 10 stories, you know. It depends on how fast they talk or, you know, what—what you could pull out of ‘em. Some of ‘em in an hour you won’t get one that’s worth anything. But, uh, it might be able to use in backgrounds somewhere. And some of ‘em you could use every single story in, you know—that they tell. They’re all just—oh my gosh. This is great.
And we have several of those families that have done that and one is Uncle Dieter and one is Mr. [Elmer] Baggs. Both of them have just fabulous stories that they tell and we’ve used them in all of our productions. We’ve used stories from them and we go back, like you said—we go back to them to, you know, harvest more stories from them and ask different questions and—you know. Some of ‘em are just so funny. You know, that you, you forget that you’ve to get in to some of these power depth things too.
Reisz
Have you encountered any challenges working with a playwright that may or may not be from the Sanford area? is there any challenge to that?
Thompson
We—yes. We have had that challenge. Um, the one that the professional group that we used, they came and taught us a lot, and they were not from our area. So they had to do a lot of historical research at the libraries and, um, the historic society, so they got a lot of input there. Though it was very good for them, but also they would say things that we would say, uh, “Stop. We can’t use that. We—this—it’s not correct.” It’s, you know—or it’s too—it’s still too politically, um, explosive. That—that we don’t want to bring that to our town at this point. Later we’ll—we’ll delve into that, but right now we can’t do that.
And, uh, and one of ‘em is about—and it—it—it’s about, uh, ah, the [Mayfair] Country Club. And the—the playwright wanted to put that in there and I said, “We cannot put this in there. They are going to court. This is a lawsuit. It has not been [laughs]—you know, we can’t put something that’s an ongoing thing that maybe somebody would be a juror on that trial that saw our view of this. No, no, no, no, no. we can’t do that.” So it’s a perfect—it’s a perfect example of— of havin’ to help, you know, keep things in the right frame that we want to.
Reisz
Have you, um, always used, uh, a playwright to produce your plays and a professional director and have you guys done any of that on your own?
Thompson
We’re in the process now of doing that and we hired—we’ve hired, um, people who have professional—have had professional experience, but are for—we only use the professionals the first time, ‘cause that was like $125,000 and so we had to raise money for a long time to—to get that together. And that was the year that we signed the contract with the theater. So, you know, all of this and financial part of it all mixes together.
And you realize, once you start this, you are a theater. You know, you’re not just—unless you’re going to keep it on a low key, not very large, but if you want to go big, you’re going to have to be a theater. And we want to go big. We’ve—want to go to the [John F.] Kennedy Center [for Performing Arts] in—in, Washington. We’re already set to be at the Dr. Phillips Performing Arts Center. We’re working with Central Florida, uh, uh, Community Arts and they’re gonna do a Christmas that’s gonna be the same show, or similar to the same show, that they put on at Christmas at Disney. So it’s the candlelight, uh, service that you pay 80-90 dollars for and you’ll pay 10-20-15, you know, for this show here. Because we want community to be able to see what we’re doing. And, and, uh, that is—that’s part of our mission, to bring the community together.
Reisz
Um, so the professional—that’s the direction that you guys are going to go in going forward is using, uh, not necessarily, um, director per se, but definitely a professional playwright and things like that? you going to keep that?
Thompson
Well, no. we’ve brought the community on the playwright too. As a matter of fact, um, even I helped write [laughs] a little bit of the play that we’re doing right now. So I can’t call myself—I call myself an editor, not a playwright.
Miller
Well, that was one of the questions, that, um, regarding—do you have any employees?
Thompson
No. we’re—not yet.
Miller
You were talking about having some professionals...
Thompson
Uh uh.
Miller
So, um, you hire people as you need them? Or…
Thompson
The way they—yes. and the way that works, um, is that they would get a stipend. Um, you would be for, um, a director, you might pay 750-1000 dollars, something like that. It’s not big money. And they have to work for six or eight weeks before the show to get it ready. I mean, that’s a lot of work for, you know, that kind of money.
Uh, but a lot of community theater only pays the music director. Everybody else is volunteer. And we have thousands and thousands hours of volunteer hours, because we have no paid staff. We do have some[sic] paid artist, but not any paid staff. And nobody and—none of the actors are paid.
Miller
So you draw your expertise from the community also?
Thompson
Right. and that is a lucky thing that we have. That we have so much theater and, um, entertainment in Central Florida, and people who want to do theater. And they’re tied into day to day jobs that, um, you know, stifle their creative—and, and they do it for free. They do it for the love of theater.
Which I didn’t understand. I’m a businessperson. I came out of, you know, owning my own business for many, many years and my husbands a, uh, CPA [Certified Public Account] and ran an insurance company. And, oh my gosh. You know, everything is the bottom line kiddo [laughs]. So that’s kinda where I fit in. And t’s a little difficult for me to learn and having to learn. And most of the other people on the [Executive] Board are businesspeople. And they—it’s—it’s—it’s somethin’ to learn how to do this.
Miller
Well, what—you brought up the board. What role does that—the board play?
Thompson
Uh, the board makes the decisions on where the money goes, and—and where the fundraisers and, um—we do all the—all the grunt work that has to be done. We do the marketing. We do the, uh, advertising. We do the, uh, um—um, the Celery Ball, which is our main fundraiser.
We reach out to all community to—to get the word out and speak to groups and make connections wherever we can with the politicians, in, uh, um—you know, just have to reach out to every single facet. And it’s—it’s—it’s a miracle. It’s wonderful. It is wonderful. And I love working this class that’s a very diverse class, with older, younger, men, women. It’s great. You know, I going to learn so much from you all [nods].
Reisz
How, um, how is—how is Creative Sanford and Celery Soup, how have—how have you been successful in achieving your goals?
Thompson
Well, we’ve put on three shows. Yes. We’ve brought in community who have done playwright—playwriting—who have done music, who have done directing, that are from the community, that were paid a small stip—small stipend. And, um, you know, this is—this is the goal. is to bring the community together. We’ve brought people together who would have never have met.
Um, one lady who’s a very prominent, uh, poet, and she was in our show and she helped write a little bit of it. And, um, she was afraid of one the—of one of the people in the show. It was a young black guy and she was an older black lady, but she wasn’t raised in any of the—so she had a whole generational plus economic—there wasn’t a reason to be afraid of this young person. But she was—she was fearful. And so she really learned. And the—and the young person learned too. How to be more respectful and so that’s—that’s a goal is—you know, I think people call it bullying and all of that, but it’s really—it’s learning how to love each other and work with each other, and um, and blend into to, uh, international, you know, family.
Reisz
You mentioned earlier that there was a couple of things that, um, you hadn’t achieved. You know, you want to do more outreach with other community groups and things like that?
Thompson
Right.
Reisz
Is there anything else you—that Creative Sanford would like to do, but you haven’t been able to do yet?
Thompson
Oh, yes. We’d like to, um—we’d like to have a performing arts center. and we have talked to, uh, Congressman [John L.] Mica about that. um, preliminary, stages, of maybe having an arts council—not an arts council. We have the Seminole Cultural Arts Council, but um, to work with them with Creative Sanford to have our theater in a building, to have uh, um, uh, galleries in the theater, and have gift shops, and have, uh, study areas, and training areas, and studios. I mean, we’ve got a big group of ideas and that would—that would involve all the arts. And that’s one of the things that, um, is real—real difficult to get off the ground on no money. So that’s where you’re going to look for federal grants and that’s where you need your politicians to help you. And Seminole Cultural Arts Council and ourselves are working together to, uh, work with Congressman Mica and—and see if we can get one in Seminole County. You know, there’s a lot people, there’s a lot of money in Seminole County. It’s all going south. So we want to bring some of it back to Seminole County and let them realize that, not only are we a bedroom place, but also a great place to—to just enjoy life and make your whole—whole area more livable.
Reisz
Um, why is it important—in particular in Sanford, of course—but why is it important that these plays are produced by the community for the community?
Thompson
Well, that goes right back to, um, people learning each other, meeting each other, uh, getting together, and becoming friends and, um, meshing as a team. And they go out when—when we have done this, um, the group says, “Hey, I know a place that we need to go.” So emails go back and then we just get together, we go out, maybe put on a performance or—not a whole show—but do vignettes, maybe do a little bit of Uncle Dieter maybe do a little bit of, um, Elmer Bags. Just, you know, somethin’ funny or, er, poignant, or somethin’ like that.
We’ve done one called Generations,where the woman tells the story of how her family came from Africa and, you know, where they landed, and you know, how her history came about, and now she’s the last one in her line. And she says—at the end, she says, “Who will remember me? Will you?” And it just—oh, it just gives me cold chills right now. It’s just—it just tells people—opens their eyes and minds and hearts to, you know, what’s going on in the rest of world and how other people are feeling and, um, we always want to do more of that.
Reisz
Uh, you had mentioned earlier that—that the—that Creative Sanford and Celery Soup in particular had been really well received by the community?
Thompson
Yes.
Reisz
Um, how have you integrated community feedback into your projects and the things that you’re doing, besides just the interviews?
Thompson
Well, that is—that is one of the big things that we do. When we have the play and getting it ready, okay? We have a day, that we have—invite all the community to come to the theater and we do a run through of the play. And if they have feedback, “Oh that—that story wasn’t there. That story is over on Eleventh Street.” “Oh, this is wrong,” or “I don’t like this,” or, oh—they don’t laugh or, you know, they think something’s offensive. And we take that all into consideration. We’re very much attuned to what—it’s like what we tell the playwrights, sometimes we say, “Hey. Something we already know politically you can’t do that. They’re already in a—they’re already in a lawsuit.” But it is the same thing with other peoples’ feelings. And, um, we had one lady who got up and said she loved this part and the other lady got up and said that, “This isn’t the way it was where I was.” And it was complete opposite, so it was like, “Okay. Well, we’ll tell this story here and let’s interview you and get your story for the next time.”
So it’s—you know, we’re going to tell our stories as much as we can, but we want to—we want to be fair to everybody, but that is what we do. That’s part of the community—that we learned from the professionals. It’s that you have—when you start your cast, you—you have a day that you talk about, um, being compassionate and—and working with your other cast members and all of that sort of thing. And, um, that kind the way it starts and then, you know, we get this real tight group going and people know you now.
For me, see, I am known as the “ticket lady,” because I was always down there working the tickets and, you know, all this. They didn’t know I was president. they didn’t care who I was. I was the ticket lady. That’s the one they saw every night. But now they’re seeing me in a completely different role, because I’m in the play. And I have just a small—I have three small parts, but, you know, one of ‘em is absolutely just as silly as all get out and so they’re seeing, “Oh, the ticket lady does something besides” [laughs], you know, “sell the tickets. She might have some other good things that she can do.” So they’re seeing me in a different light and I think we see everybody in a different light. That—that whatever they perceive themselves to be, we’re seeing them in a different, more human light.
Miller
Well you’ve been with the project from the beginning, um…
Thompson
Just about.
Miller
Well, what—what are your biggest surprises about this?
Thompson
Oh, all of it. All of it. I had no idea how much work it was gonna be, how much fun it was gonna be, how enlightening it was gonna be. It’s just been—it’s just—it’s been like [sighs] renewed youth of somethin’. You know, you’ve thought, Oh, well, my identity is a restaurant owner. This—I’m the Rib Ranch, you know. Well then you retire and I got all involved in this and—and, uh, now I feel like, “Well, hey. This, this is rejuvenated me.” and, you know, put your brain in gear again and you have all these new goals, because I’d already completed all my goals. I was the best restaurant that sold barbeque in Seminole County and, you know, where do you go from there? So this was a new goal and set new things. So age never matters. Grandma Moses became famous in her 80s, so maybe I’ll become famous in my 70s [laughs].
Miller
Ah, what are some of the challenges in creating and maintaining a project like Celery Soup?
Thompso
Financial. There you go. That’s the bottom line. That’s the big problem, is getting’ the money. Yup.
Miller
Well, um, you mentioned fundraisers.
Thompson
Mmhmm.
Miller
And you have a Celery Ball.
Thompson
Right.
Miller
Do you want to describe that a little bit and some of the other fundraisers?
Thompson
Okay. What we’ve done—and, of course, this has evolved too. When we first started we had the Celery Ball, we had a king and queen. And the king and queen raised money—the king and queen candidates raised money—and, um, the first year we raised over $30,000. The second year about $30,000. The third year about $25,000. And the fourth year $10,000. Okay. economy. There you go. The economy’s going down, people didn’t have money to do all this, so that next year it was—we had a lot of silent auctions. We did not have, and we’re not having this year, a king and queen.
So we feel like—okay. We’ve kind of burned that out. it’s got a life of about four years and then you’ve got to go to something else. So we’ve moved the play—we’ve moved it to a different location. It’s gonna be a The Great Gatsby themed, so it’s gonna to be ‘20s-‘30s. Gonna be a lotta fun and, uh, um—and we have silent auction and trips and things like that, that we’re gonna be putting out to—to raise money instead of having—it was real easy when you had kings and queens and they’re all out having fundraisers and, you know, they’re doing all the work and you’re raking in the money. But it doesn’t work that way. It doesn’t work that way for the whole thing.
Miller
Alright, um…
Reisz
[inaudible]
Miller
Yeah, uh, what are, um, some of your production costs? And in that the price of your tickets and stuff?
Thompson
Mmhmm. okay. We price our tickets at $15—well 20 and 18 at first—and then we moved it down to 15 and 12. And, ah—again, it’s to meet the mission of bringing things and the quality—best quality we can—to the community. And these are bad times. I don’t know how you guys are seeing it, but, you know, everybody is working one or two, you know—working extra jobs. Still not, you know, cuttin’ it with the way things are going with businesses, where they’re cutting people’s hours back. “Oh, we’re only going to give you 26 and we’re never gonna give you more than 32, so you can’t be a full-time employee, so we won’t have to pay you benefits.” Da, da, da, da, da.
So we look at all of that and, uh, we decided on our price, and because we’re not usin’ the professionals. We’re back—we give just the small stipend—we do a production, is about 10,000, mkay? Is what it costs us to put on a production. and a lot of it is borrowing from different places in the community. Oh, and now that we’re a co-op we can say, “Oh, do you have some lights we can borrow?” Whereas we may have had to spend 10,000 on lights the first year, which we did. We had to rent ‘em. That, you know, now we can get lights and—as a matter of fact, we just had two people who gave us lights just in the last week. So, you know, we’re getting the lights—we don’t still have as much lighting as we need, and that’s one of the things that we’ll get a grant to help us get lighting and sound equipment and, you know, these kinds of things that we need. But, um, yeah. that’s it. Financial.
Reisz
Um, much of what Celery Soup has been doing is preserving the history of and the stories of Sanford.
Thompson
Right.
Reisz
How are you preserving the legacy of Celery Soup and Creative Sanford itself?
Thompson
Well, we have two ways. Uh, Alicia [Clarke] at the, um, Sanford Museum has asked us for copies of everything. So they’re going to archive the beginnings and all of our—as time goes by, they’ll do it. And so I’m keeping double records of, you know, two pieces of paper and so we’ll keep one and give one to her. And of course, we’re expecting that a lot of our archiving is going to go up on RICHES, so we’ll have that as part of our archival process.
And we, um—you have to have a disaster program, you know, and so we have disaster programs and we have things backed up with—on the flash drives—or we have them backed up on secondary computers. We have, um, fireproof safes that we keep things in. and we keep things off, um—out of the office. I don’t—I can’t think of what the word is. but somewhere else that, um, we keep things—the financial things and the historic things—um, backed up. So that’s how we have to do it. And—and the things like this, I’m really happy that if anything happened to this little dress, um—this was the dress that was worn by the little two and a half year old little girl, who was in our very first production—Kalayla. and, um, so definitely want pictures of that. And that’s—that’s an archival thing. If this rotted, we wouldn’t have it. So…
Miller
Okay. um, how do you keep the community engaged in Celery Soup, uh, especially long-term?
Thompson
That’s a problem. You have to keep moving and especially when we have to look two ways: the economy and wearing yourself out, you know, with asking people over and over again for help. And, uh— so the engagement—we just try to broaden and not to go back to the same wells every time. That if there’s 54,000 people in this town, and if 2,000 people are helping us, we need to get to the next 2,000 and the next 2,000, and the next 2,000. And we’ve reached, um,—as a matter of fact, just last week we were given a check for $250 from an organization that had never helped us before. So here we are. We’re getting into that outer ring and so we’ll just, slowly but surely, we’re just gonna reach out all through the whole area and get some of these people.
Mercedes[-Benz] helped us and then they kind of backed—backed away with what they were doing and so we’re going to different places to make this thing work. And we’re on David Maus’ [Toyota’s] jumbo-tron out there, which we’ve never been on there before and so, you know, that’s a first for us. So we just keep moving ou.t and we’ve never had any kind of TV advertising or never had any TV that supported us, and so this year, uh—this 2014, we’re really gonna put a push on getting sponsors of, um, in kind or whatever we can get from the, uh, major stations. We’ve had radio. We’ve had, um, um, public and NCR[3] and public broadcasting, but we want to get more into the mainstream too.
Reisz
Um, I know that we are getting tight on time, so we have one last question that we’d like to ask you, before we release you.
Thompson
Okay. Mkay.
Reisz
Uh, but what advice would you give another community thinking about beginning a similar project?
Thompson
The advice that I would give them is to contact everybody that has ever done one that you can find and ask them the questions that you’re asking. How do you do it? How much did it cost? We had a group that came in and asked us those questions and we answered them and, uh, and it was very interesting. We had—they came down and visited us and it was a very interesting time.
But, um, whatever the people tell you it’s going to cost, figure it’s going to cost at least 50 percent or a third to 50 percent more, okay? It’s much more expensive than you think it’s gonna be. Uh, some people think, “Oh, well everything be given to us.” and that’s what we were told” Oh, people would just reach out to you and they’re gonna give you this and they’re gonna give—let me tell ya. in a big market like this, they don’t do that. Maybe in very small towns, yes. You can get that kind of immediate help, but in a big, big area like we’re in it’s not the same process. And that’s where we differ with Swamp Gravy too, in that, you know, we have a very different financial field back and forth there.
So, yeah. It’s, um— it is—it’s mainly financial, legal. Be sure if you write contracts, if you go with professionals that, you know, you get a good tight that you’re protected and safe. And we went to an entertainment attorney and had her look over the contract and make changes and things to protect us a little bit better. So those are the things that you’ve got to have.
Reisz
Well thank you very, very much. We greatly appreciate it. Um, we really appreciate it. And then we’ll probably come up with some other questions. If you think we missed anything, let us know. We’d be happy to ask about it.
Thompson
[laughs] Okay.
Miller
And we…
Thompson
How did y’all meet? [laughs].
Hardy
We grew up at the end of Tenth Street. Our house was the last house on the street. And it just so happened that my birthday was August 17th, 1956 and yours was…
Black
Mine was August 31st, 1956. And we’re like 14 days apart and our mothers carried us at the same time. And we’re at the dead end of East Tenth Street. so I’m at the corner and he’s at the end. It was just us two kids. There were others in the neighborhood, but…
Hardy
Not as close as we were.
Thompson
So you went all through school together?
Hardy
Pretty much.
Thompson
What school?
Hardy
In elementary school, it was Hopper [Academy]—between Eleventh [Street] and Celery Avenue—and afterwards, it was Lakeview [Middle School] for seventh grade, I think.
Black
Yeah. We were 12 at Lakeview and we went to Sanford Junior High [School] at 13.
Thompson
And where was Sanford Junior then?
Black
That’s Sanford Middle School now. It’s the same one.
Thompson
Oh. It’s on [U.S. Route] 17-92.
Black
Yes. The next year we went to Crooms [High School], which became our ninth grade. Then we went to Seminole [High School].
Thompson
So you were there for the integration of—or you were one year after?
Hardy
No. We were in the midst of it.
Black
We were in fourth grade when that began to happen, so we kind of had a choice for our fifth grade. Our parents could decide if they wanted to send us to the other school, because they didn’t close Hopper or anything like that.
Hardy
It just made an opportunity to go to other schools, if they wanted to, but we stayed. It was right around the corner [laughs].
Black
We lived one block away. It was on the corner of Eleventh and Bay [Avenue] and we lived on Tenth and Bay so—my parents left the choice up to me, because all my life I’ve always gone to integrated schools. I began school in New York state and…
Thompson
Oh, so you left?
Black
I would leave every year. My father was a migrant crew leader, but they lived here. They stayed here. My parents’ work was as a migrant to carry people up north to pick apples—to harvest the fruit.
Thompson
And so you went to school up there every year? So you were just home in summertime?
Black
And I spent all my summers in New York. I began school in New York and I would end it here every school year. From September to November, up to the week before Thanksgiving, I would go to school in New York. Then we’d come down here and I’d finish school. And it used to be June 6th that would be the last day of school, and then as we got older it would be June 11th. The next day, my mom and I would get on a Greyhound bus and go to Rochester[, New York] to visit with my sisters, and my father would come up around July 5th—out to the migrant camp that we lived on.
Román-Toro
Could you elaborate on the differences between going to school up North and coming to school here?
Black
Yes. I sure can. For me, it was more of a freedom. When I’m in New York, I could be myself. I could be all that I thought I could be. I went to school with whites. I started out with whites, so in school, there was no limit to what we were taught we could be—even the black students.
However, down here I had to go to an all-black school, which wasn’t a problem, as far as it being black. I knew I fit in there. However, at a very early age, I learned the difference. It was kind of sad for me, especially by sixth grade, I had a grip on what was going on. I didn’t like when I got to Florida, I had to feel “less than.”
Thompson
When you were in Florida, did you feel like the teachers didn’t tell you you could be all that you could be? Did the teachers treat you different in the North and South?
Black
No, but there is a difference and I saw the difference. The teachers here did all they could, but you still left school thinking that you could go no higher than a teacher. We weren’t taught about, “You could be a doctor one day.” This is what I remember.
Thompson
Billy, how about you?
Hardy
Just like she was saying earlier. we were in that situation and, as far as going to school, that’s what we did. We knew we had to go. we knew we had to have an education, so we went. The thing about Sanford during that time was that we lived over here and they lived over there. In other words, the black part of town was over here, and the white part was over here, and our parents taught us, “You don’t go over there.”
There were many parts of time that—I’ll tell you what, as I came home from service, after 23 years of service, there were parts of town that I had never seen. When I came home, I was right down Melonville [Avenue] and I said, “I’m going over here,” and I did. I rode on through the neighborhoods and I was like…
Román-Toro
How’d you feel about that? How’d you feel about having that opportunity to go wherever you wanted?
Hardy
After being in the service, basically, I was going everywhere I wanted anyway, so when I came home it didn’t matter anymore. [laughs] The door was swung wide open. When I joined the Army, the door was open so wide, it wasn’t black or white anymore. It was green. We were fighting for one purpose and one cause and that was it. Sometimes prejudice situations came up, but it wasn’t a big thing. It was pretty much—it happened. It was controlled. It was dealt with, and that was the end of it. Growing up as a child, I had to stay where my parents told me to stay.
Thompson
Did it make you feel fearful—them telling you that you can’t go there?
Hardy
It bothered me. It really bothered me, because Sundays—you know, Sunday afternoon—after a Sunday meal, everybody’s been to church. We would go out to the schoolhouse and play football. It was all the guys in the neighborhood and we would have a blast. Gosh, we would just play football all day.
What happened was, some of the guys from the other side of town—the white guys—came and saw us playing football at the schoolhouse—and this is kind of what got the ball running as far as the integration part. We played ball. They played ball. We played ball over here, but they played ball over there, so when they came over and a group of them decided, “Let’s go ask. Let’s go talk,” and we began to talk and things began to change. I think there was more to it than that, but that was one of the changes I saw.
Thompson
So you and your peers—black and white—you made the decision to integrate before your parents?
Black
Our parents didn’t decide for us to integrate. It was the white man. It wasn’t our parents. I believe that all of our black parents would rather have kept us where we were. They feared. They wouldn’t have sent us out to white schools, but as time went on, white people had to make a change, so that’s where it came about. We didn’t care that it was integrated. We were fine just where we were. I chose not to go. They gave us a choice. It was a very easy decision for me. I had been looking at white people all my life, and honestly, I was afraid of the white people down here, because here there was always that segregation, but in New York—so I knew there was a difference.
The white people in the South – he probably could name some white kids that we went to school with. I can’t. There were no relationships with any of the white kids that we went to school with. It’s like…
Román-Toro
So you were segregated, even when you weren’t segregated is what you’re saying? When segregation started informally, and then later formally, did you trust it? Did you trust that it was for sincere reasons? or did you suspect that there was an agenda behind it?
Black
Well, I suspected that there was an agenda behind it—that they were being forced to make it happen. They didn’t want us. They didn’t think it was the right time to do this. There was a force behind it.
When I—in fifth grade, in New York state—well, I had heard it while in fourth grade down here—but in fifth grade in New York state, when it was time to move back down here in November, I remember that all the kids thought that I was so smart in school down here. The books that they were learning through, I had already studied and completed in New York.
Thompson
So you were getting second-hand books in Florida?
Black
And in fifth grade, the books were coming from the North. Yes, because when I got here and went to school and for Thanksgiving, the guy next to me, Willie Jones—when he opened his geography book—in the front they have whose name is in it and then they have the school stamp up in the corner. And there it was: “NRW,” which was North Rose-Wolcott [High] School—that I went to. I was just floored, and I went home very upset with my father, because I had asked him, “How do these books get from New York to Florida?” He told me he didn’t know, but in fifth grade I had my own evidence. I saw the book and I just—it was just never a good feeling for me.
That’s where my—I am a big advocate for diversity and I have been ever since then—and with Martin Luther King[, Jr.] and John F. Kennedy—for me, in my life, even with what I was going through, I was going to be what Martin Luther King was talking about—black and white kids holding hands and walking to school together. I was going to show white people that that could be done, because I knew there was a difference between the whites in the South and the whites in the North and you’re all white, you know?
Thompson
I want to go back just for a minute. When you said your parents wouldn’t let you go there, did your parents explain why they didn’t want you going in those neighborhoods?
Hardy
Well, basically they didn’t want us going over there because it was trouble. Some of the experiences—I mean, I got dogs sicced on me. I got to the point where I just got fed up by a lot of stuff and it was—I walked to the store one day, and this guy sicced his dog on me. He had one big one and one little one, and they didn’t bite me, because I guess I was a pretty good size as a kid. I would jump at one, he’d run and the other one would try to get me and I’d jump at him, you know? I tell you what, the hatred that built up in me during that time—I was going to kill the dogs, but they died. I had something on the inside that really bothered me for a long time. and when we left Hopper and went to Lakeview it was like a big melting pot.
Thompson
What year would that have been?
Black
We were 12. That would have been [19]68. We were 12 years old.
Thompson
Because the integration of Crooms didn’t happen ‘til 1970.
Black
We were 14 at the time. Crooms was in ninth grade. Lakeview was built for the seventh grade—for all of us. Everybody was going to have to go to Lakeview.
Hardy
We fought every day. every day. They shut the school down once, because we fought so much. I mean, it was lunch time, and here come the buses, and it was a mess. I could honestly say that the class of ’74, from Lakeview all the way up to high school, we fought.
Just to take it even a step further, I played football. My thing was football. I was big in sports, and it got to the point where I just decided, “What are we fighting for? I’m tired of fighting.” Did you see the movie Remember the Titans? We finally came together Homecoming. It took Homecoming in the 11th grade for us to come together—actually, in the 12th grade. It took Homecoming for us to come together. We were down 7-6, and we got in that huddle, and we looked at each other and decided, “That’s it. We’re going to do this.” That was the first time we joined hands and said, “That’s it. No more.” We were on defense, and I was on defense, because I played both ways. when the game started, I was on the field from then to the time the game was over. Gosh, their quarterback dropped back for a pass and we rushed him hard. And he dropped back and he threw it and one of the quarterbacks—I’ll never forget it, Jimmy Clemens, a white guy, intercepted it. We formed a wall and we wiped out everybody and Jimmy ran in for the touchdown and we won the game.
Thompson
But didn’t you all go to the state [championship] that year?
Hardy
No. We didn’t. We didn’t go to state. I’ll tell you what—it took that to bring us together. We really had a time. We really did.
Thompson
It wasn’t every black or white person, but it was certain ones that they had been…
Hardy
It was certain ones. I’ll give you a good example. I have a good friend named Pat Howard, okay? Pat were[sic] practicing one day, and I was on offense at the time. Pat intercepted the ball, and I hit him pretty hard. We were in the shower and I wasn’t expecting Pat to come up to me. He said, “You tried to kill me out there.” I said, “Coach is wearing us out out there. Nah. I didn’t try to kill you.” I said, “You all right?” He said, “Yeah.” We shook it off. The next day we got ready to line up and the coach blew the whistle. He said, “Hardy? You’re over there on defense next to Howard.” Now we’re on the same side. Now it’s getting good. “Don’t come this way,” I said. “I don’t care who you are—black or white. Don’t come this way.” Pat catches on real quick and he stood back to back with me and said, “Don’t come this way.” Now we’re having fun. Now it’s getting real interesting. We’re great friends right now. As a matter of fact, his mother has a barber shop across the street—a hair salon. Betty Ann?
Thompson
Oh, yeah. I don’t know her, but everybody says what a wonderful person she is
Hardy
That’s his mom, so when we get together we hug, fish, and talk. Needless to say, when the wall was torn down—while we were in the pot fighting—there were some friends made in the pot. The wall came down. Doing sports—the wall came down. We realized fighting wasn’t going to do us any good. “You’re here and I’m here. We’ve got to go to the same school. We’re from the same town. Hey, we might as well get along.”
Thompson
Your thought process is that that brought about the change, because you said, “I’m not fighting.” Then you said that to them, and they said that they didn’t want to fight either. You were really a catalyst for the change in your school.
Hardy
Somebody had to do something.
Thompson
Well, I’m glad to meet you, because that was a wonderful thing that you did.
Hardy
All that fighting and carrying on—it gets to the point where you’re like, “Come on. We just did this yesterday.” There was a big change. When we graduated. Tears flew. “I might never see this guy anymore.” I knew these guys, so when reunion time comes around, that’s great. We go get a ride, Pat gets drunk, and I have to take him home[laughs]. All of a sudden he’s hugging you and wants to tell you how much he loves you. The true feelings come out then. When I see him in his momma’s shop, it’s like, “Hey! You didn’t call me!” They look at us like we’re going to tear the place apart.
It had to come to that. The wall inside of me fell. and it didn’t just fall, it crumbled. After I joined the service, it really crumbled, because now those I thought were my enemies were now my friends. Now we’re fighting for the same cause. I’m training them and they’re training me. I’ve been to the battlefield.
Thompson
Which one?
Hardy
[Operation] Desert Storm. I rescued so many I can’t even count the number. I was a combat medic and I’d pull them out of holes and hills, and rescued them out of the battlefields. It has been a great life and it ain’t over yet. The best is yet to come.
Thompson
So when you got out of the service, what did you do?
Hardy
I opened up an automotive repair shop in Columbus, Georgia. That’s where I live now. That’s where I’ve been ever since. I work on everybody’s car [laughs].
Thompson
Now, when you were in school, did any of the girls fight?
Black
Well, he saw more fights than I did. I think that since I went to school in New York, when I got here, I didn’t have to put up a wall, because I understood already, because I understood what was going on. However, as an African-American, I knew where I stood and how far I could go. Which brings me back to the fifth grade and having to—it was an awful feeling to have to feel “less than.” I spent six months knowing that I was more than that. Then you get to a place where you can’t go here and you can’t go there. I think we grew up desiring not to. Which is why when we got old enough and came home, we wanted to see what all the hoopla was about. We wanted to see why we couldn’t go over there. It was to our great disappointment, because there were houses just like ours. Our house looks better than theirs.
Thompson
Okay, but what about the fighting? Did they do any fighting?
Black
Oh, yes. There was fighting. However, I would be in New York, so he would see more. The fights were always in the beginning of the school year and definitely at the end of the school year. The last day of school [laughs].
Hardy
You can’t get suspended. The only thing you can do is go home.
Black
You’ve been saving up the whole year for the last day of school.
Thompson
Get even time.
Black
I think we even picked fights. It was the last day of school.
Hardy
It was wild, I tell you. I think about some of that. There was one in particular. I had a problem with one teacher. This guy—from the moment I walked in his class until the time class was done—did not like me. I didn’t bother with him, but there was this girl that liked me. She was white and she liked me. My thing was, “I can’t do nothing with you. Ain’t no way.” I wasn’t interested, but because she liked me, he was upset about it. She didn’t try to hide it. She liked me and I kept saying, “Look, I can’t do nothing with you.” And he realized what was going on, and one day, he called me outside the classroom and he said, “You are one dirty, stinking, colored boy.” It hit me and I told Dad about it and he said, “Don’t worry about it.” but I still had to deal with this guy
One day in class there was a hand-cranked electrical generator. You can generate electricity with this hand-cranked electrical generator. Now, my dad was a plumber, but he was also a carpenter, and he knew electricity, and he taught me a lot of things. One of the things that he taught me about electricity was if you got in line with the electricity, if you touched it and I’m touching you, then I’m going to get it, okay? He had this electric generator in class and he was trying to prove a point, and the point was that if you touch this—he had us get into a line and hold hands and guess who was last? Guess who was next to last? The young lady. I knew what was going to happen. He was going to crank the generator. He was saying, “Y’all ready?” Everybody was ready. When he made a motion to crank that generator, I snatched my hand out of hers, and her hair stood up on her head, and she said, “Eeeeeee!” [laughs] When she hollered, he looked straight at me. I was standing there looking at him, because I knew. Needless to say, I got an F. I wound up going to summer school and I passed with a B. Stuff like that happened and I couldn’t do anything about it. I had to deal with it.
Thompson
So what happened to that girl?
Hardy
She followed us right on through high school. She was right there. I can’t remember what her name was, but she graduated.
Thompson
But she learned her lesson that—she didn’t mess with you again did she?
Hardy
We went to high school and I would see her and she would—but that was it. I couldn’t. My dad said, “No,” and that was just it. It was taboo and I just didn’t do it. You have to be obedient to your parents, so I didn’t. And with everything that happened to me, I didn’t want anything to do with that. The only thing that got me interested was when they came to the football field and said, “Hey, y’all want to play?” At first, there was a wall. After playing football the first few times, there were a couple of fights and everybody was like, “Come on.” As time went on, you get tired and you say, “Hey, something’s got to give.”
Thompson So what about the girls? They fought too?
Hardy
Yeah. The girls fought too. You know how girl fights are—tearing clothes off, pulling hair, scratching. [laughs] There was a lot of that too, but when the girls start fighting, a lot of the guys would get in too and they would hold them and keep them from fighting. At the end of school, there weren’t enough people to stop all the fights that broke out though. The only thing you could do was get on the bus and go home. The last bell rang, run to the bus, and go home [laughs].
Thompson
Well, you both have come out with really wonderful attitudes.
Román-Toro
How did you guys feel when the Trayvon Martin case happened? How did you act when you heard about that?
Hardy
I was in Georgia at the time. I was just working in my shop when I found out about it, and I was like, “Man, that thing ain’t going anywhere yet. It’s still there.” I was saying, “Gosh, the only way that this thing is going to leave this city is that some folks just have to die.” How long are we going to be upset with each other? If I get cut, I bleed. If you get cut, you bleed. It’s the same color red. The same thing God did for you, he did it for me. Some folks won’t let it die.
When it happened, I was like, “Wow, here we go again.” Just when you think everything’s good and maybe there’s a chance and we’re doing all right, here we go again. It blew me away. It really hurt, because a lot of people knew me as the guy from Sanford. When I was in school, they used to call me “Sanford.” When Trayvon got killed, everybody was like, “Ain’t you from Sanford? You better look at the news. Something’s going on down there.”
Thompson
Did you talk to any of your friends down here? What did they say?
Hardy
Oh, gosh,. You know, you always get some radical friends, because this happened to Grandma and this happened to Granddaddy. The memory is still there too. People say, “I’m going to get in on it too,” and “I’m going to do something about it.” I’m like, “Hey, man. That ain’t the way.” Then the demonstration—I was so glad that they were peaceful. I didn’t want that for Sanford. I didn’t want all that fighting and carrying on. We fought enough.
I’ve got a lot of sisters down here and a lot of kinfolk, and I’m like, “Hey, man. Be peaceful. Let’s let the law work for a change.” I mean, it’s obvious what happened. If the blind man heard what he said to the 9-1-1 operator, I mean, come on. You[1] were out to get that young boy and he didn’t do anything but go to the store. Now, I don’t know what had been happening in the past. I don’t know how many break-ins they had had in the past. I don’t condone that kind of stuff. I mean, if there’s a thief, let’s catch him. I don’t want him to break-in mine. I don’t want him to break-in yours either. You work hard and you don’t want anybody breaking in and taking your stuff. but Trayvon wasn’t doing that. This guy was so obsessed that he just had it out for him, and what he did was wrong.
Black
And overboard.
Hardy
The 9-1-1 operator telling you, “Wait ‘til the authorities arrive.” And you’re going to take matters into your own hands, and, as far as I’m concerned, you’re guilty. You shot that young boy and he didn’t do anything to you. You messed with him. It could have been your brother, son, or cousin. He came from Miami. I hate that he came to Sanford for this thing to happen to him, but it opened up a lot of eyes in this city—black and white.
Thompson
I was so proud of the City of Sanford. They had a thing from the Sheriff’s Department that said that all through that spring there were no reported fights, no break-ins, no attacks, etc. We stood head-and-shoulders above any community that was having all that outside pressure to do something and we didn’t do it. We stood together.
Hardy
And my sister called me and told me, “You should have been here. You should have seen the city. Everybody got together and marched.” It did my heart good. I hate what happened to Trayvon, but it sure did bring this city together and it got people to thinking. I mean, it was something deep inside of me.
Black
When we’re born, that’s something that’s imbedded inside of us from birth. In New York, we say that white babies are born with a backpack full of privileges, and when the black babies are born, the first thing you get is: “You’re black.” If you come from a black parent, this is one of the first things that you’re going to learn. You are Negro. It’s changed several times since then—colored, African-American, black.
Hardy
You heard it different. See, I heard it as, “If you’re white, you’re born with a silver spoon in your mouth. If you’re black, you get a slap on the butt.” [laughs]
Thompson
Okay. Now I want to hear your feelings about what happened to Trayvon.
Black
I’m not an avid television watcher. I certainly try to stay away from the news. I prefer the peace, because I can always hear God speaking. When the Trayvon Martin situation happened, I was unaware of it, but I was in the process of relocating from New York to Sanford, and when I got here in February, I didn’t need the TV. All of our friends and family were talking about it.
What happened to me when I got here, as far as Trayvon is concerned, was that I came downtown really just trying to feel Sanford again, because we were allowed to come on First Street. We used to go to the Rexall Drugs.; we couldn’t eat at the counter thingy, but we could go and get our medicines. Then there was the five-and-dime or the 10-cent store.[2] So I came downtown and remembered [inaudible] and Manuel[?] Jacobson and, in passing one of those places and seeing that it was open, I went in.
Immediately, Sarah Jacobson—I got pretty upset, because she wanted to know how I felt about it, but she felt that the world is thinking that Sanford is a horrible place now. and since I was from New York, she wanted to know how I felt. I said to her, “Unfortunately, I’ve just come from New York now, but I’ve lived in Sanford all my life, so I can’t agree with you that this is something different. This has just come out, but they have been killing all along.” That’s what I said to her. “This isn’t new. We don’t know how many black people or children someone has killed and they’re out there in the St. Johns River. I do know that, in my lifetime, Trayvon is not the first one. He’s just the one the Lord is using to clean up Sanford.” Cleaning up Sanford from the top. starting with the police department and everything. We got into a heated discussion, because I wouldn’t back down. I’m the African-American. I know what happened, so I’m not going to listen to you tell me based on what your parents—and all of that. I told her, “Sarah, but you’re still white. You don’t get to have a say in stuff like this. Your opinion is not going to matter to us or to the world, because we look at you and we still see white and all the things that conspired in the meantime.”
She was very proud of her mother. Back during that time, when her mother had Manuel[?] Jacobson, she only had white ladies working for her. Somehow, it had come about in the city that they were going to boycott her, because she didn’t have any black employees. Well, one of the ladies that lived in the neighborhood heard about it and she liked Mrs. Jacobson, so when Mrs. Jacobson got to work that morning to open up the store, this lady was waiting outside so she asked her, “Why are you out here? I’m not open yet.” She said, “Well, I came to apply for that job that you’ve got.” She let her in and she said, “Well, you know I can’t hire you.” And she told her what her credentials would have to be before she could hire her and she just kindly told her that they were going to shut her down that day. She said, “I’ve come here to work for you for free as to save your life.” Sarah thought that that was really great, but not on the woman’s part. she thought her mother had done this awesome thing by letting this black lady come in there. I said, “Sarah, they were going to kill your mother.”
Thompson
Kill the business, not kill the mother.
Black
Well, I don’t see it that way. I don’t see that they were just going to get there and it was going to go over peacefully. I see Mrs. Jacobson in all of that. The black woman really put her life out there to save their livelihood. All Sarah had gotten out of that was that her mother had done this awesome thing for a black woman.
Thompson
Well, did the woman keep her job? Did she continue to work for her or did she just work one day for free?
Black
No. It was for a while until all of that had blown over. People saw that she had employed a black person. From that, Sarah just took this great pride that her mother—I said, “Well, she may have been loved enough by the blacks that this woman would come up to her, but she didn’t do anything great. She came and opened her shop like normal.” We just kind of had it out about that, and she wanted to know how I felt about the Trayvon thing. “Is Sanford really a bad place?” I said, “Well, it’s the same. Nothing’s changed.” She disagreed with me, and that’s okay. I never expected her to agree with me, but I was really pissed inside, because that brought back something. I could feel the ball and the chain around my feet while I was talking to her.
What happens to us is that we know what to say to you and how to be diplomatic when we say it. However, if your attitude is the same as Sarah’s, then we have to come together and see the truth. This isn’t the first time this has happened in Sanford. We really have to control our anger. We don’t intend to be anger[sic], but it angers you when you’re talking to someone and they’re not listening. and you know they’re not listening by what they keep saying back to you. I just finally got tired of talking to Sarah and I told her I didn’t want to discuss that anymore. Sanford hasn’t changed. She said, “I could see this is really upsetting you.” She was laughing and there was this guy there watching. “What’s wrong with you, woman? Okay. it’s your money. It’s your money that’s still got you down here and you own half these buildings here, so okay.” She said, “Well, Patricia, if you’re going to open up a shop down here, you should go over across the street and talk to the black lady over there to see how she’s doing.” I said, “Why? Sarah, I don’t need that, because whatever they’re doing to her, I don’t need to hear her troubles and I’m not going to let any of you all do anything to me while I’m here. I’m from the North, Sarah.” She said, “I still think you should go over there.” I left there with a thorn. I still feel it, but it’s better now, because I get to say it to white people [laughs].
She was purposely sticking something to me. She knew she was doing it. She was laughing the whole time. That bothered me and it really discouraged me from even being downtown. I’m opening my shop over on Sanford Avenue across 25th Street. Sarah’s not invited [laughs].
Thompson
Did you have other encounters with blacks or whites in Sanford that you knew when you lived here all those years?
Black
, at this time I’m not going to repeat any of it, because it’s not suitable for the audience. It was negative towards whites. I’m using that word, because I can and it’s true. Sanford as a city has done nothing but grown. It’s the people in Sanford—both black and white. When we speak about different situations, we’re talking about the whites. In our minds—well, they are in charge. Even if we did say “the city of Sanford,” we still mean “whites.” They had lots of opinions, but they were basically what we’ve shared about whites.
Hardy
Our house was next to the bushes, so there wasn’t anything else back there. There was a big ol’ yard. When I went outside—growing up, I can remember having no shirt on—short pants, barefoot. I can remember wearing a shirt, short pants, barefoot. I can remember standing in the road, because my aunt—she used to keep me, and I would always be outside when a story came on called Search for Tomorrow. Do you remember that?
Thompson
Yeah [laughs]. Take a look at this white hair.
Hardy
I remember that. Organ music and everything. And I would go outside, because I didn’t want to be inside the house—no way, no how—because it was on a black-and-white TV. I’d be outside and I’d look over there, because the house across the street was Mr. Jack and Mrs. Blanch’s. They were old folk. No one around was my age except Patricia and—and lived across the alley.
Black
There were other kids, but this is Tenth Street, but when you get to the stop sign, this is where I am. This is the end of Tenth Street—a dead end, actually. It was just he and I as children over here, so we all played together at some point. But at the end of the day, and even at the beginning of the day, it was he and I. Today, we are best friends.
Hardy
We got close.
Black
He can tell you what I looked like. He swears I had ponytails all the time.
Hardy
And it wasn’t hard to figure out who I was either. It was like this most of the time, because this is the only kind of haircut you got. [laughs] Some of the old ladies would plait them. They would take one piece of hair and make this long plait and they’d [inaudible] back and one back here—four big plaits and that was it.
Black
I always had plaits.
Thompson
Now, did she wear little dresses or would she wear shorts?
Hardy
She had a little dress on. Every now and then she’d come out with shorts.
Black
Well, at the age of seven, my mother taught me to sew. At the age of eight, I was doing well enough that, at 10, she bought me my own sewing machine. I would come home from Hopper around third or fourth grade, and all the kids would come out and gather together to go out and play. I would be finishing up my little halter and shorts, and I would go out in an outfit that I just made in 15 minutes. That’s when I would have on shorts. Yeah, but he’s my best friend.
Thompson
Did you ever see him play football?
Black
No. That was during the time we separated in spirit, due to the other part of my story. We separated even though we were still there.
Thompson
Talk about the separation.
Black
We didn’t see each other for about 50 years.
Hardy
We used to walk to school together. Young girls they grow up faster than we do, and they reach a certain point where they lose their mind. It’s just crazy. As young guys we’re like, “What’s the matter with them?” It’s because we don’t have that yet. It was me and you and a whole bunch of girls, and it got to the point where they were way ahead of me. I didn’t have a clue. I realized that something was going on, and at the age that I was, I didn’t want to be a part of it. We used to have to walk to school—talk about no bus. They said, “If you live two miles away, the bus will come.”
Black
We lived two blocks from the two miles.
Hardy
But they told us, “You guys can’t ride the bus,” so we walked. It was a trip. It got to the point where you would see people that lived right around the corner of the school get on the bus. They’d drive from the schoolhouse and drop them off.
We used to walk. And they had gotten to the point where they had begun to walk fast, so me being the only guy, I knew something was different. You start growing up and you start looking in the mirror and you see them and you see yourself and you say, “Nah. I don’t fit. I’m not what they’re looking for.” When they sped up, I slowed down, because I just didn’t—you know, after you’re called “ugly” enough…
Thompson
You were shy.
Hardy
No. I went through school being called ugly, big head, big lips, big feet, and all this stuff. You know, after you hear that enough, you kind of think, “You know, I don’t want to deal with that.” Then I would purposely wait until I would see them turn the corner, and then I would walk on to school. When I got to Sanford Middle School, I already had a license. At 13 years old, I had a driver’s license. I had restriction at 13. I had operator’s at 14. All that walking was done once I got my license.
One of my uncles had a car that was in the bushes and I wanted the car. He laughed me up under the porch. He laughed and laughed. And I stood there until he finally said, “You really want that car, don’t you?” He said, “If you could get it out of the bushes, you can have it.” I went and got my dad’s truck and pulled it out of the bushes. I carried it over to my house, and three days later, I drove it over to his house [laughs].
I had my driver’s license, and I taught my aunt, which was his wife—I taught her how to drive, because he’d try, but he’d freak out and holler at her. I taught her how to drive, so he loved me. I was driving his truck and he bought a Cadillac for her, and she was scared of that car. It was so big. I would drive the Cadillac. Woo, man. The car I pulled out of the bushes. I would drive that. It wasn’t a big deal.
Thompson
Okay. I want to hear a little more about the car. What kind it was and what you did to repair it? That became your life’s calling?
Hardy
I was fixing [inaudible] and lawnmowers since I was eight years old. I didn’t know why. All I knew was that I could do it. When I got the car—which was a ‘64 Oldsmobile Starfire—it was like a tank. It was cast iron. I was teaching her how to drive one day, and she just tore it all up. We didn’t have any insurance. Nothing wrong with the car. [laughs] The other car was all torn up and the owner said, “You could go. [laughs] It was a light blue ’64 Starfire. I got that thing running.
I carried it home, rose up the hood, and started checking stuff out—spark plugs, distributor, wires, battery. and it didn’t take much. I put some gas in it and fired it up. He just gave up on it, basically. I think about that now that I run an automotive repair shop and think, “It just needed a tune-up.” It cut off on him and he went and pushed it into the bushes.
I was driving in junior high school. So when they took off walking, I rode a bicycle for a while, and then I started walking. It wasn’t a big deal. I would see them walking on the other side of the road.
Thompson
And you didn’t even offer them a ride?
Hardy
No [laughs]. I was doing good[sic]. I was satisfied. I drove all the way through high school and everything. I always had something to drive. My dad used to have an old Chevy pickup. I used to drive that. I fixed it up for him. I didn’t realize that God put that gift in me until later—until I accepted him and got saved.
I was reading the Bible—about [King] Solomon. When he was building the [First] Temple, he was trying to figure out, “Who’s going to help me?” Then God told him, “This guy over here knows about bricks, this guy knows about wood, etc.” I got to thinking and realized, “You did that.” [laughs] I thought that I was going to be the mailman after I got out of the army.
I had taken the post office’s[3] exam. scored big time. After I came from taking the test, they told me, “You’ve got three interviews already.” I said, “Shoot. I’m going to be the mailman.” I had had about three tickets in the past. I went to Macon and they said, “Oh, you had these a long time ago. Just clear your racket and you’re good. Take the test and everything.” I go to my first interview, and the guy said, “It looks good, but you have too many tickets.” I said, “What do you mean I have ‘too many tickets?’ I talked to these people at Macon and they told me that my driving record is good.” He said, “Man, I can’t use you. You’ve got too many tickets.” I said, “I know what I’m going to do. I’m going back down to Macon to straighten this out.” I went back down to Macon and got another ticket. [laughs]
Now I’m sitting there in the car, and I’m saying to myself, “Lord, what do you want me to do?” He said, “Go home. Enroll in school.” I went home and went to the schoolhouse and enrolled in school and I started the very next day. That’s what he wanted me to do, and I signed up for automotive technology. They thought that I was the best thing since ice cream. I was just doing what I know, and they were like, “Nobody like you has ever come through here.” I kept saying, “Man, all these mechanics...” They said, “Look, no one like you has ever come through here.” I would get my grades and throw them on the table. When it came time to graduate, the instructor walked up to me and gave me these papers and said, “Fill these out.” I looked at the papers and they said, “National Honors Society.” I said, “You got the wrong person. Wait a minute now. National Honors Society means that I’m going to wear a white gown. You got the wrong person.” The guy said, “No. you haven’t seen your grade point average.” I said, “Well, what is it?” He said, “It’s 4.2.” I said, “4.2? How do you get 4.2?” I built a car, and that’s how I got 4.2.
This young lady and I were in the class, and I guess we were neck-to-neck and it got to the end of the class, and I said, “I’ll know what I’ll do. I’ll just build a car. You know, I’ll just put the engine in, and the transmission and everything.” They said, “You ain’t going to be able to do that.” I looked them and said, “Y’all don’t know.” I built that car and I didn’t realize they were looking at me, because I would go to the end of the hall, where the car was, so I could work on it. But they were looking. Finally, I finished it and I stood there and looked at it. I put the key in and fired it up and it looked like everybody came out of the woodwork and it looked like everybody came out and started clapping and everything. I was like, Wow. [laughs] So I filled out the papers and was part of the National Honors Society.
I was floored. I didn’t think that was me. As they finished with the National Honors Society, they said, “Now we’re going to name the Student of the Year.” And they’re going on about this guy and they’re just talking about how great he is and how good he is and I’m saying to myself, This guy must be—goodness, boy. This guy really did good[sic]. They just kept talking until they said, “The Student of the Year is Billy Hardy.” And I’m sitting there and they’re just clapping and hollering, and I’m sitting there, because it didn’t hit me yet. and somebody said to me, “They just called your name.” I looked around at the instructor and walked up to the podium and said, “Y’all said all that about me?” I was like, Wow. I’ve been doing it ever since he blessed me to open up a shop. I worked at the dealership and a couple of other shops and then he blessed me with my own shop.
Thompson
Were you in contact with him when he was in the service?
Black
No. It really was 50 years. It was 50 years last year since we saw each other. It’s been a year now.
Hardy
When I left, I left. I’d come home and ride in and ride out.
Black
I wouldn’t see him though. We still lived in the same places, but we didn’t contact each other. The separation was my doing. I did it because of what was going on in my home. He and I were so close that I knew what he knew. The separation was me not wanting to ruin him by telling him what was happening to me all those years.
Thompson
Okay. If you want to tell that. We have 14 minutes left.
Black
I’m the one that started to walk ahead. I would look over the corner to see if he had come out. If he hadn’t, I would shoot out so I would be ahead. That was because I decided not to tell him what was going on. He was quiet and I could just tell he wouldn’t have known what to do with that information. This had already been happening to me for six years at that point, and we had played together up until that point, so I had to make a decision. It wasn’t until all these years later that I could tell him why.
Thompson
You can tell that if you’d like to.
Black
I had been being molested every week by a family friend in my home or wherever he would drive me to. At one point, Billy and I were playing and he dared me not to do something to him. and I was always hitting on him and everything, because he’s always been a whole lot bigger than me and he dared me this time. He always let me have my way, but this time he was saying, “Oh, you better not do that.” I knew he was serious, but I also knew I was his girl and he was going to let me get away with it. so I did real quickly and I ran across to my yard and he came running after me. The guy that was molesting me was standing there and I ran into the house and as Billy was running to come up behind me, the man hit him. and when I looked back I realized the man was really fixed on me. Billy got up to come after me again, not knowing why this strong man that he didn’t know would punch him like that, and he punched him again. so I knew I had to leave him alone. I made the decision to walk ahead.
Thompson
Did he hurt him?
Hardy
He hit me pretty good. I was just a little fella. If I find him again—I don’t know. I remember clearly how he did that, and I couldn’t have done anything, because this guy was swinging some hammers. He knocked me down about three times and the only thing I could do was get up and go home, you know?
Black
I couldn’t look anymore. I didn’t know what to do. I didn’t know if to tell him that this is what the guy was doing. For me, I let Billy go. I didn’t want to mess him up or leave him thinking he had to save me or something, so I did that. The girls didn’t do that. I was the one that said, “Here comes Billy. Walk a little faster.” The girls didn’t even know why. It was very painful for both of us.
At the age of six, he and I were playing make-believe, and the aunt that he was talking about saw us and called my mother. And at six years old, I got the beating of my life. It was my molester that went and caught me and brought me back, and my mother beat me with a leather belt. and when she stopped swinging me around, I got introduced to shame. The guy was standing there and he watched me get the beating, and from there, he began to touch me and became my friend. So I thought I was saving Billy at that time.
We would still go to school, but we ignored the feelings we had for each other. We were in love at six years old. We went to the store on one of the lawnmowers that he hadn’t fixed yet. I have no idea where I learned any of that from. But for me, the separation was very difficult. because your friend doesn’t know what is going on and I just couldn’t tell him or anybody else.
Thompson
And for how long did that go on?
Black
For 11 years. I was 17. By the time. But by that time, our lives had gone in different directions.
Thompson
When did you go to the military?
Hardy
In ’76. After football season I said, “It’s time to go.”
Black
I never did try to contact him all these years. I wouldn’t ask his sisters or anybody where he was. I just always prayed to God that one day, I could see him again. and, lo and behold, that was last year. It was always in me, because the day after, he never asked me, “What happened to you?” We never asked each other that. I believe that if he had asked me that, it would have given me a chance to say. But since we didn’t—by the time we’re 12, I’m trying to protect him. I had determined, through all those years, that if my name ever came out of his mouth, I would go.
It was 50 years later, and he was talking to a cousin, and he asked about me and she called me in New York and told me, “Billy was asking about you. He wants your number.” And I asked, “My Billy?” She said, “Yeah.” I said, “Billy boy? My Billy boy?” And I started to cry and asked her, “’Tricia, is it my Billy boy?” And she kept saying, “Yes.” Even she knew what it was. She asked, “Do you want me to give him your number?” I said, “No. give me his.” It had been long enough. I called him immediately, and, probably to his annoyance, I called him every day since then [laughs].
My father owned a school bus, a big truck, and a car. The bus was to carry the people up North and the yard was always full. The backyard was where Daddy kept all his vehicles was actually right in his view.
Hardy
So I knew when they came from up North. When the trucks and the buses were out there, I knew she was back. We were like Forrest Gump and Jenny [laughs].
Thompson
This was just wonderful and I’d love to do it again.