Unidentified
We’re ready.
McGuire
Are you saying go?
Scherer
[laughs] Today is April the 1st, 2014. I am interviewing, uh, Lieutenant Colonel George G. McGuire. My name is [Rose Marie] “Judy” Scherer. Uh, please call me Judy. Um, his interview is being conducted at UCF [University of Central Florida] in Orlando, Florida. It is part of the UCF, um—the whole title is—is Community History Project—[Community] Veterans History Project. Um, so we are going to start with, um, the early days. I would like to ask you where you were born and grew up.
McGuire
Alright. Well, I was born in New Jersey—Summit, New Jersey. And When I was, uh, a few weeks old, my family moved on to Baton Rouge[, Louisiana].
Scherer
Wow [laughs].
McGuire
Where my father worked in the oil refinery at Baton Rouge during World War II, and where I managed to acquire twin brothers and a sister.
Scherer
Oh [laughs].
McGuire
Um, Shortly—well, not shortly. When I was about eight years old—eight or nine years old—we moved to England.
Scherer
Oh.
McGuire
Where my father was building an oil refinery at Fawley, near South Hampton, for Esso in England. After we had been there about three years, we moved to Durban, South Africa.
Scherer
Wow.
McGuire
Where he was again a resident engineer for construction of an oil refinery—first one on the continent of Africa—and where I acquired a brother. I had acquired another sister in England, and now I had a brother in South Africa, so there are six children.
We sailed back to the United States. This is now approximately 1954 on a ship called the African Enterprise, which was a, um, freighter—combination freighter and passenger ship that carried a few passengers. And we were the only children, so we had the run of the ship.
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
And that was great fun. We got back to, uh, New York in the middle of the wintertime. And my memory says it was in February, but that may not be right. And of course, being good loyal little Americans who had been out of the country for so many years, we had to stand up on the ship and watch Miss [the Statue of] Liberty as we came into New York Harbor.
Uh, following that, we lived in New Jersey for a number of years. And then I went off to college at the University of Notre Dame. And shortly afterwards, my father quit his job and moved to Massachusetts.
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
And, uh, the bane of my life was that when I would go home for vacation to a place in Massachusetts surrounded by girls’ colleges, they all had vacation break at the same time as we did.
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
So there was nobody there.
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
And of course, Notre Dame at that time was all men, and there were no women there, unless we found some in the local community, which was a very difficult thing to do.
Uh, At Notre Dame, they had three R—all three ROTC [Reserve Officers' Training Corps] programs. This is 1959 when I started there. There’s a shooting [Vietnam] War going on in Asia. People are being drafted. I had no interest in being drafted and being given a rifle and go shoot people, so I said Okay. I’d rather be an officer. And no, I don’t want to walk around in the mud, and I don’t want to sit on a boat bobbing up and down in the ocean. And since you have Air Force, I will go Air Force.
Um, so I did. And when I was graduating Notre Dame, I was commissioned as a Second Lieutenant in the United States Air Force and promptly sent to Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri.
So one of the first things I did was I bought myself a car. I didn’t have a car at that point, so I brought a brand new, shiny red Valiant convertible. And that was a neat looking car. I shaw—showed up on base, and went into my first assignment, and the people I’m working with—one of them takes one look at that car and says, “I give you one year.”
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
Uh huh. And, uh, he turned out to be right. Because a few months later, I met a young lady, and less than a year later, we were married. All fault is directed at that shiny red convertible, I suppose.
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
About a year or so after we were married, I got orders to transfer to McCoy Air Force Base, which, of course that’s a hardship tour to come to McCoy Air Force Base, which is now Orlando International Airport, where I was the base procurement officer here.
Now, they had assigned me to procurement when I went to Whiteman, and I didn’t know what “procurement” was. I only knew one meaning for the term, and it had more to do with what you did after hours than it did with buying anything the Air Force wanted. Anyway, I became procurement officer. “Procurement” just simply means that you’re the guy in charge of going out and buying stuff.
So I was stationed here in McCoy, and, um, about that time, is when what was then called “Orlando Air Force Base” is transitioning to the Navy. And the last Air Force unit to transition out from Orlando Air Force Base was the hospital. So my two sons have the distinction of having been born in an Air Force hospital on a Navy base.
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
From here, the, uh, Air Force sent me up to Washington, D.C., to go to George Washington University for a Master’s Degree in Business Administration, as my assignment for a year and a half. And then from there, to go to Seattle, Washington, to the, uh, Defense Contract Administration Services management area Office, otherwise known as DCAS.
Scherer
Excuse me. What was it known as?
McGuire
DCAS. D-C-A-S.
Scherer
S.
McGuire
Judy had a problem with this one earlier.
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
Which was at, um, Sand Point Naval Air Station, which was a little pimple on the side of the wealthiest area of ci—city of Seattle, a few blocks away from the University of Washington. Not very far from it. It no longer is a military installation. It’s now high-cost residential.
Um, let’s see. from there, the next assignment was to Bangkok, Thailand, to be the, uh—one of the officers assigned to the Air Force’s Procurement Center in Downtown Bangkok, which was supporting all of the Air Force and some of the Army units, uh, throughout Thailand and, uh, Vietnam. And this is at the tail end of the Vietnam War.
From there, I went back to the United St—came back to the United States to go to uh, Norfolk, Virginia, to the Armed Forces Staff College.
And then from there, to the, uh, Air Force OSI—Air Force Office of Special Investigations—in Washington, D.C., to act as an in-house consultant on procurement matters. Air Force OSI had been founded la—years before, in the very early days of the Air Force, because of scandal having to do with contracting. And then they had gotten away from that and they had forgotten had to spell “contracting.”
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
As they got mostly inter—interested in chasing drugs. But in, um—somewhere around 1970, there was another big scandal that came up that didn’t have anything to do with the Air Force, but it did with the Navy. And the Air Force decided that it would be smart to get back into that business and pay attention, because we are spending just huge sums of money. We ought to be paying attention to it. And the first thing they needed to do was to find somebody who knew something about the procurement system and could come in and act as an in-house consultant to them, and so they chose me.
Scherer
Really?
McGuire
So for two years, I taught OSI agents how to spell “procurement” and the kinds of things to look for. The big thing coming out of it was to find out just how honest the system really is at that level. There may be corruption at other levels, but at the level of the working people doing the job, it is a very, very honest system.
Um, now what did I skip? Somewhere in here, I skipped something. No. I guess not. When that was finished, they sent me to Japan to be the Deputy Director of the Air Force’s Procurement Center in Tokyo—actually, at Yokota Air Force Base,[1] which is just in the western suburbs of Tokyo—in which I had the responsibility for all of the, um, in-country support for Air Force and Army, and staff responsibilities towards the, uh, Army Center—similar to it in Korea, that took care of Air Force and Army in Korea.
And, uh, let me think for a moment. Oh, yes. One of the, um, cases that I had run in the OSI had been an accusation made against the Lieutenant Colonel who commanded the Air Force Procurement Center at Yokota Air Base—that he was corrupt, and that he was accepting bribes from, uh, one of the car companies , which the, uh, U.S had a contract with for small engines.
Well, the truth of the story—it turned out, that the man was an elder of the Mormon Church,[2] as well, as being a[sic] Air Force officer. And he had led a church group on a visit to the plant. Just a visit to go see what the plant looks like. And his big mistake: when he got back to his office was he had written the thank you note on Air Force letterhead, rather than on Mormon Church letterhead. And that had kicked off all of these accusations that he was, uh, a corrupt and on the take from this car company, which of course, he was not. But we had spent a bunch of time going and checking it out, so I knew all about it [laughs] before I got there.
Um, then that was followed by an assignment back in the United States to go to Rock Island Arsenal [in Rock Island-Moline, Illinois] to be the Deputy Director of the ammunition procurement division for U.S. Army Armament Material and [the U.S. Army Military Intelligence] Readiness Command, functioning as something called “Single Manager for Conventional Ammunition.”
Army buys all the ammunition used by the military—all production ammunition, not development, but production—ammunition used by the military, of whom the Air Force was the second largest consumer. And therefore, the Air Force, to help with that mission, sent six officers to Rock Island to participate. And at th—this point, I am a Lieutenant Colonel. And so I became the Deputy Director of that division. We spent in that one division—and this is 1980—one and a half billion…
Scherer
[gasps].
McGuire
Dollars a year. This is peacetime. One and a half billion. Buying bits and pieces of little things, most of which costs less than one dollar a unit, and the most expensive one was ten dollars a unit. All over the country. And then, the things we bought would flow to the Army load plants to be made up into rounds of ammunition—most of them. And they spent another billion and a half or so putting the stuff together as ammunition.
Okay. So I’m making decisions every day about how am I spending one and a half billion dollar budget. I’ve got a hundred people literally working for me. Uh, we are loading plants all over the country. We are making decisions about which factories we keep in business and which ones we don’t, and which communities stay in business because the factory’s there, and which ones don’t. And then I go home, and I have to be concerned if there was enough money in the checking account for my wife to go grocery shopping.
Scherer
Whoa. A great[?] contrast.
McGuire
This got a little bit mind-bending at times.
Scherer
Quite a contrast.
McGuire
Hm?
Scherer
Quite a contrast.
McGuire
Quite a contrast. Yeah. And then, uh, I retired.
Scherer
Yes.
McGuire
At this point. I had been in the Air Force for 20 years and three weeks
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
And I decided it was time to go. I had three kids that needed to go to college, and they weren’t going to do it on Lieutenant Colonel’s pay, so I had to go do something else.
And another interesting thing, to me at least, was that I had joined Air Force ROTC back there in college, because I had no desire to be anywhere near the Army or the Navy, but especially the Army. And so for my final tour of duty, I am winding up serving with the Army
Scherer
Oh.
McGuire
As one of their officers [laughs].
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
Anyway, so that’s it.
Scherer
What—when were you serving for the Army? Was that duty procur—procure—procurement, or was that when you [inaudible]?
McGuire
No. That was with the Army. I was Deputy Director…
Scherer
Yeah.
McGuire
For Ammunition Procurement.
Scherer
Yeah.
McGuire
Deputy Directory of Ammunition Procurement Division of that Army command.
Scherer
Well, it all is very impressive, and I’m sure it was most important, but it sounds to me like your career was drug[?] running and buying guns [laughs].
McGuire
Uh, no. actually…
Scherer
Just joking.
McGuire
I might have bought some drugs along the way.
Scherer
To find out where [inaudible].
McGuire
But they would have been legal ones.
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
Um, Never bought any guns. Never bought an airplane, but I bought just about everything else.
Scherer
Well, when you were doing procurement, the rifles—what were you actually…
McGuire
Oh, I didn’t buy the rifles. I bought the ammunition that went in the rifles.
Scherer
Oh, you bought the ammunition. Sorry. Yeah.
McGuire
Somebody else bought the rifles.
Scherer
Oh, you [inaudible].
McGuire
There was another group doing that.
Scherer
Yes.
McGuire
And there was another officer.
Scherer
Mmhmm.
McGuire
Other officers assigned to that.
SchererSo you said you were in Bang—so—so you said you were in Bangkok
McGuire
Mmhmm.
Scherer
And then you were in Thailand—I mean, Thailand is Bangkok.
McGuire
Yes.
Scherer
And other places, but um, did you—did you do anything in the states? How long were you in the states at the end of the career?
McGuire
Well, it was three years in, uh, Rock Island.
Scherer
Yes.
McGuire
It was three years at McCoy Air Force Base.
Scherer
Yes.
McGuire
So two years in Whiteman’s. So that’s at least eight years of doing procurement there. And it was two years in the OSI, advising the OSI people about procurement—participating in, uh—in their actions.
Scherer
Could you enlarge a little about your stay in Bangkok, and tell us more about what you did, and how difficult or easy it was? Because of the place, of course, it is always very hot there. [inaudible].
McGuire
Yes. As we were talking earlier, if you got a, um, weather report for Orlando and a weather report for Bangkok, for the months of July, August, and September, you could not tell the difference as to which city you’re reading the report on. It’s the same.
Scherer
Interesting.
McGuire
The difference is, of course, that Orlando does cool down—some. Bangkok doesn’t. The, uh—Bangkok only has, um, three temperatures—hot, hotter, and hellatious.
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
Uh, Bangkok was a very interesting and very, very different, uh, type of assignment. At that time, the Air Force’s procurement office was in a building in the center of Bangkok. It was called the “Chokchai Building,” and it, uh—it wasn’t terribly tall. My memory says seven floors, but it might’ve been more. Uh, the city was built on swamp, so the building was constructed such that it floated. And its basement was a big concrete barge, and it was floating. Now, the technology has progressed, and you go to Bangkok, and there are skyscrapers all over the place. It’s a fairly modern city, but at that time it was not.
And, uh, so I was there as one of the officers assigned to that position. My memory says there were four of us, at that point, and I was the fifth one kind of detached. And, um, we just bought all the goods and services that the U.S. Air Force required in Thailand. And at that time, we had several bases scattered all over Thailand. And we had, um, people working for us—enlisted, uh, men—working for us at each base, also during procurement, but they were doing it as our subordinates for the stuff that had to come really from the local community. But otherwise, uh, we would buy the stuff in Bangkok—things in Bangkok. And this would be stuff—oh, it would be food, it would be entertainment, it would be the gas for the propane heaters, uh.—you name it. We would be buying it in Bangkok.
Um, We lived in a, uh compound, which was very much like a park, that was a little ways away from the, uh—from the office. And, uh, you walked in there and it was a beautiful little park-like area. It was lined with houses, all of which are rented to, uh, foreigners, like ourselves. Either American or Australian or somebody else, or the, uh, members of the diplomatic corps. And at the front of the—of the property, there was a very old, interesting Thai gentleman, and at the back of the property was his son and his family. And the fellow at the front—named [Mom Rajawongse] Seni Pramoj.
Scherer
Seni Pramoj? [laughs].
McGuire
Seni Pramoj. Now Seni Pramoj is rather important in Thai-American relations. In World War II, the Japanese moved into Thailand, and Thailand declared war on the United States.
Scherer
I never [inaudible].
McGuire
Seni Pramoj was the ambassador in Washington, D.C. He refused to deliver the declaration of war. United States chose to ignore it. When WWII ended, the United States chose—says, “Thailand was not an enemy combatant. They were an occupied country.” Other Allies had different opinions, and there’s[sic] arguments about it. And so the United States agreed, “Okay. We would take a little, tiny bit of reparations. We ‘ll take one house.” And it became the residence of the American Ambassador.
Scherer
That’s a fascinating story.
McGuire
Seni Pramoj later was president of Thailand…
Scherer
Oh, really?
McGuire
At one time or another.[3]
Scherer
Oh.
McGuire
But at the time we met him, he is the landlord, sitting up at the front of the compound.
Scherer
Oh[?].
McGuire
And we didn’t see him very often, but we did—knew who he was. But, um…
Scherer
I thought you were going to say he was the watchman. You know, because [inaudible].
McGuire
No. We figured that the—there was very little obvious security in that compound. There was no real guard at the gate or noth—but there were gardeners all over the place, and we figured they were all Thai CID [Criminal Investigator's Department].
Scherer
[laughs]Well, one of them was very important.
McGuire
And, uh…
Scherer
And I—I think that’s a story that is well worth recording, because it shows how a war was, uh—was, um, avoided by simple, you know…
McGuire
Yeah, um…
Scherer
Simple contacts.
McGuire
So, America has been—had a treaty of friendship with Thailand since 1835, or something like that. It was the first one we signed with anybody in Asia.
Scherer
Oh, that’s interesting. [inaudible].
McGuire
‘Course, at that time, I think Thailand was probably about the only independent Asian country that we could get into. Japan was closed. China was, uh, occupied by several people. The—the British had Burma[4] and Malaya, And Dutch had Indonesia, and the French had Cambodia and Vietnam. And Thailand was in the middle. And we signed a treaty of friendship with those folks.
Scherer
Yeah.
McGuire
which I think has paid off very handsomely for us.
Scherer
Too bad it’s so unique.
McGuire
And it’s very unique.
Scherer
Yeah.
McGuire
During the, um, Vietnam War, Thailand actively participated in the war. And Thailand provided us with access to their facilities, and that’s the only time they have ever done that for anybody that’s not Thai.
Scherer
Yes[?]. [inaudible].
McGuire
So, um, [inaudible].
Scherer
I wish—wish they had done the same thing in Vietnam.
McGuire
Well…
Scherer
You know, after [Ngô Đình] Diệm [inaudible]. But I’m supposed to ask you questions, and you answer at length
McGuire
Yeah. So…
Scherer
And I ask very short questions, but you’re asking at length very well [laughs].
McGuire
One of the…
Scherer
So I don’t have to ask you many questions.
McGuire
One of the jobs I had, while I was there in Thailand, was to be the Contract Administrator for the Thai security guard contract. We employed…
Scherer
That sounds like a Chinese title. It’s so long.
McGuire
Almost.
Scherer
Can you say it again?
McGuire
Thai security guard contract. To be the contract administrator. We had a contract, and it was written as a regular Air Force Procurement contract, between ourselves and the [Thai] Ministry of Defense, whereby they provided, uh, Thai military reserves to act as the security guards for all of our forces—our locations, rather—all over the country of Thailand.
Scherer
Interesting.
McGuire
Every little—every U.S…
Scherer
[inaudible].
McGuire
Space. Now, some of those were big. They’re big air bases. There’re lots of people. And some of them were little tiny listening posts…
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
Out in the jungle…
Scherer
Wow.
McGuire
With maybe one or two Americans—well, usually more than that—maybe four Americans, and four or five Thai security guardsman to take care of them, to keep them safe, and literally keep the tigers from coming into the, uh…
Scherer
[inaudible].
McGuire
Into the post.
Scherer
Mmhmm. That’s unusual.
McGuire
Yeah, and part of my duties were[sic] to go and inspect every one of those installations all over that country to make sure people are doing the job right.
Scherer
Well…
McGuire
Which I did.
Scherer
Yes. I’m sure you…
McGuire
Which was a very interesting [inaudible].
Scherer
I’m sure you did it very arduously, but it sounds very interesting.
McGuire
It was. It was very interesting.
Scherer
Yeah.
McGuire
Uh, so where do we go next?
Scherer
I want to ask you if you, in all—in all these different places you’ve been, if you met any characters that stay—stayed in your mind as being particularly interesting, either, you know, um, good, bad, or eccentric, or whatever?
McGuire
Hm. Strange…
Scherer
Because your experiences are so different from other people’s in the military.
McGuire
Yeah.
Scherer
Usually[?], they’re in a unit, or they’re on some ship, and so on. But you were all over the place with all kinds of people, from the important ones to the not-so important ones.
McGuire
Yeah, but some of them were just ordinary folk. Uh, like[?] I was. [inaudible].
Scherer
But you had to find people who spoke English, I presume.
McGuire
Yes. And in most of the world, you can get by on English.
Scherer
That’s true.
McGuire
Most educated Thais could speak some English.
Scherer
Mmhmm.
McGuire
The, uh, officers on the Thai side, with whom I interfaced—one was an Admiral, the other was an Army Major, uh—spoke—spoke beautiful English.
Scherer
Yes[?].
McGuire
Um…
Scherer
That was—your stories are so interesting.
McGuire
That…
Scherer
Can you tell another story that—of interest…
McGuire
From that…
Scherer
[inaudible].
McGuire
Well, there is one other one of interest from that. I went to one of the bases, and the, uh—the guardsmen work on the base. They work for the American, uh, military police chief, whoever he is. And so, I was talking to him one day, and he was telling me about a young airman who wanted to get married. Now, before a serviceman can get married overseas, especially in a warzone, his, uh, bride has to be vetted through the American Embassy.
Scherer
Mmhmm.
McGuire
And most Americans, when they look at a Thai woman, cannot tell how old she is…
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
Until she is elderly, and then it’s obvious that she’s elderly. But as long as she is fairly young up through middle age, you’ve got no idea how old she is, when you look at her.
So there was this, uh, one young fellow, who wanted to get married and this—this is, um—now, this is 1974 time period—to, uh, his Thai honey. And when they started checking on her, they found out that she had been a prostitute for the Japanese forces, when the Japanese had occupied this particular base 30 years earlier.
Unidentified
[laughs].
Scherer
Very interesting turnaround[?].
Unidentified
[laughs].
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
[laughs] So our 18 year old—18 year old…
Scherer
Yeah.
McGuire
American G.I. couldn’t tell she was probably 45.
All
[laughs].
Scherer
Interesting. That’s interesting story.
McGuire
Yeah.
Scherer
Do you have friends around the world that you made at that time?
McGuire
We did have for a long time, but then, um, over the years…
Scherer
Yeah.
McGuire
They’re gone. The Admiral that[sic], uh, had been in charge from the Thai side—I kept in touch with for a long time, but then he died.
Scherer
I’m not supposed to add anything to this, but I have to say that a prostitute who was a prostitute for the Japanese was[?]—was, uh—was quite often recruited and kept as a slave for soldiers.
McGuire
Oh, more than likely.
Scherer
What did they call them? There’s a name for them. But anyway…
McGuire
Uh, comfort girls.
Scherer
Comfort girls.
McGuire
Or comfort women, rather.
Scherer
She—that could have happened to her. I mean, but still, she was old.
McGuire
It might have been.
Scherer
[inaudible].
McGuire
But the point of the story wasn’t so much that she’d been a prostitute.
Scherer
That she was old.
McGuire
It was that she was at least 45 years old…
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
And our 18 year old airman couldn’t tell.
Scherer
[laughs] That would’ve been an interesting—or a—have made a rather easy decision for the superior to make [laughs].
McGuire
Yes. I don’t think she got her clearance.
Scherer
[laughs] So do you—yeah. Do you keep in touch with anyone that[sic] was posted in those places with you?
McGuire
No. By now, I have lost—well, with all, except one. I still keep in touch with the man I worked for when I was in Japan.
Scherer
Oh, yes.
McGuire
But, uh…
Scherer
[inaudible].
McGuire
The rest of them, time has gone by.
Scherer
Tell us about more colorful characters you’ve met.
McGuire
ike, I don’t, uh—Well, one of the most colorful characters was a fellow out there when I was a Thailand—American officer, who had lost the, um, first two joints of[?] one of his fingers, through some kind of accident. He cut it off with a saw or something. It wasn’t—it wasn’t particularly interesting. But the thing was he only had that much. Now in Thailand, you bargained at that time. You bargain for everything, and—but the currency is baht. So we would go and we would say, “Four baht,” and “Five baht,” “Ten baht.” whatever. Well, he could bargain in half baht.
Unidentified
[laughs].
Scherer
[laughs] I see why you remember him.
McGuire
That’s my main memory of him, is he could bargain in half bahts.
Scherer
I’m going to ask you a two-step question. Number one: did you ever keep a diary or make notes of what you were doing? Um…
McGuire
No.
Scherer
Oh, that’s [inaudible]—that’s more or less the answer then. Because, uh, it would be interesting, and you probably would have forgotten by now some of the things. Some of the [inaudible].
McGuire
Oh, I’m sure I’ve forgotten probably most of it by now.
Scherer
Yeah.
McGuire
But no. I did—never kept any diary. I got movies and slides and stuff like that, but…
Scherer
So what about your family, that were in the states whilst you were doing all this? Did you keep in touch with them fairly well?
McGuire
Well, my family was with me.
Scherer
No. Not your immediate family. I mean, your…
McGuire
Oh.
Scherer
Parents and siblings[?].
McGuire
My parents, and my brothers and sisters and siblings?
Scherer
Yeah.
McGuire
Oh, yeah.
Scherer
Yeah.
McGuire
I still do keep in touch with them.
Scherer
Yeah.
McGuire
Now, my parents are long gone, but yeah. My brothers and sisters and I still keep in touch.
Scherer
Well, of course, we didn’t have email or anything, so what did you do? Write to them?
McGuire
Yeah. We write—wrote letters. And every time you circulated that through the country, you would, um, go and see people. Um, yeah. My wife’s, uh, parents lived in War—in Warsaw, Missouri, which, uh, is kind of south and west of Kansas City[, Missouri]—a couple hundred miles out in the country at the head waters of the Lake of the Ozarks in the Missouri countryside—hill towns. And it was amazing how Warsaw became on the way to everything.
Scherer
Oh [laughs]. Via Warsaw [laughs].
McGuire
Yeah. It didn’t matter where we were going.
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
It was always by way of Warsaw…
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
Missouri. It could have been—it was Washing—Florida to Washington, D.C., is by way of Warsaw, Missouri. Uh…
Scherer
[laughs] Oh, that’s good.
McGuire
Seattle to Alabama for Squadron Officer School is by way of Warsaw, of course. That’s not too bad.
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
But, uh, everything was by way of Warsaw.
Scherer
Wow[?]. That’s funny.
McGuire
And then…
Scherer
Does your wife like traveling?
McGuire
Did she—yeah. She did.
Scherer
Oh, I [inaudible].
McGuire
She’s now passed, but, uh, yeah.
Scherer
Oh, I’m sorry.
McGuire
She did.
Scherer
I didn’t know. Um…
McGuire
Yeah.
Scherer
Well, you’ve had a very interesting life.
McGuire
Yeah, ‘cause that particular—That first wife died about six years ago, but then she sent along a replacement, who ordered me up off of Match.com as her souvenir of her visit to America—the United States. And, uh, she’s Thai.
Scherer
Oh, really?
Scherer
Well, how is your Thai? [laughs].
McGuire
My Thai is good enough…
Scherer
[inaudible] mai tai [laughs].
McGuire
My Thai—Yeah. I can order one of those. Um…
Scherer
Mai tai [inaudible] [laughs].
McGuire
My Thai is probably good enough to tell you “Hello” and “Goodbye.”
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
All of which is the same word: sà-wàt-dee. And to ask, “Hông náam yòo têe năi?” “Where’s the toilet?” in Thai.
Scherer
[laughs] Good one[?]. Good phrase [laughs].
McGuire
And I could say thank you: kòp kun mâak. And that’s about it. Uh, fortunately…
Scherer
[inaudible] If you were in procurement, people must have been saying, “Thank you” to you often.
McGuire
Oh, they were.
Scherer
Okay[?]. Were you bribed at any time? Or tempted to be bribed?
McGuire
No. No. Though, uh, some people had trouble with the U.S. standards on that. And in one particular instance in Thailand, uh, the contractors just could not understand when we said, “No. We cannot take anything.” So one Thanksgiving or Christmas or something, they showed up with a lot of turkeys and stuff. “No. we cannot take it.” “But I can’t take it.” “Well, okay.” we gave it to the orphanage.
Scherer
Oh, that was a good idea.
McGuire
But no.
Scherer
You must have come across a lot of interesting situations like that. That’s a—that’s…
McGuire
We came across a lot of things that were cultural differences.
Scherer
Yes, but I mean in the actual process of what you were doing. First of all, you had to find out who to start with to ask for what you needed. And then you had to choose between them.
McGuire
You had to choose between—yes. You have to define what you need. You have to find the people that can fill your need. And then you have to make a choice as to which one is going to fill it, and you have to pay attention to a whole long list of social things, as to which person can have this particular contract. Um…
Scherer
So you had to do a lot of hard work?
McGuire
Yeah. Yeah. Well, this is all goes with part of the job.
Scherer
The job. Yeah.
McGuire
Government procurement and commercial are not the same.
Scherer
Oh.
McGuire
And the big difference is the rules that, uh, the government person has to follow. And people that[sic] I was—when I was teaching at OSI, one of their frequently raised complaints was: “Well, it would be so much cheaper if we did this, or if we did it that way.” And I would have to explain to them that the, um, military procurement regulations, which fill a space like this, were not designed for the efficient and economic acquisition of goods and services for the military. They were designed to fill the social aims of Congress first. And after you fill the social aims of Congress, then we do things to make sure we get stuff.
But we have things like—you have Buy American Act [of 1933]. You have a, um, law that governs the amount of money that must be paid to the contractors on the job, which often is very different than the local prevailing wages. You have to procure from minority-owned businesses. You want to procure from women- owned businesses.
Scherer
They did that then? Back that far?
McGuire
Oh, yeah. They’ve done this for a long time. And it goes on and on and on. On certain type of business would be set aside, to be filled by only people who meet these social constraints. Whatever they were.
Scherer
Yeah.
McGuire
To fill the social aims of Congress. Um, I [inaudible]…
Scherer
Tell me what was your biggest disappointment during this time?
McGuire
Uh…
Scherer
Something…
McGuire
I can’t think of one at the moment.
Scherer
Go wrong after you went half way into it, or something like that?
McGuire
Pardon?
Scherer
Did anything go wrong after you went half way into it?
McGuire
No. The only interesting thing was I never intended to stay there.
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
I intended to do my first tour of duty, and then get out.
Scherer
Yes.
McGuire
But by the time that, uh, point came up, Air Force requirement is four years of service after commissioning. And the point I had four years of service, and I had three little children. And I knew I needed a Master’s Degree, and there wasn’t any way that I was going to be able to support four little children and a wife and go get a Master’s Degree on my own. And the Air Force says, “We will send you to, uh, George Washington University for your MBA [Master’s of Business Administration], if you would like. All you have to accept is an extended service commitment of three times the length of that year and a half of school.” And then every time I did that, or I got promoted, or I got sent somewhere, there was always a service commitment attached to it. It wasn’t until I had 18 years of service in, that I could’ve get out if I wanted to. At that point, I stopped accepting any offers for anything that had a commitment on it.
Scherer
I see. That’s understandable. And I think you [inaudible]…
McGuire
But by then, I was at Rock Island Arsenal in Illinois.
Scherer
I think—I think you’ve your judgments in order.
McGuire
Hm.
Scherer
Because I—I admire what you put first[?].
McGuire
[laughs].
Scherer
But you certainly had an intering—interesting career.
McGuire
Yeah.
Scherer
Tell me about something that—funny that happened whence you—when—when you were in one of these places.
McGuire
Well, alright. Well, uh, the one we were talking about at lunchtime. Military people on active duty, and as a retiree, are entitled to fly space available on military aircraft from one point to another. ‘Course you have last priority.
So we were in Japan, and my wife wanted to go to [South] Korea, which there were frequent flights between Yokota Air Base in Japan and Osan Air Base in Korea. So we went over to Korea, and on the way over we rode on a chartered airliner. And this just like riding in any other airliner, except this one is under charter with the [U.S.] DOD [Department of Defense].
And we went shopping in Seoul[, Gyeonggi-do, South Korea]. She bought all kinds of stuff. We got back down to Osan Air Base with the—almost a pick-up truck full of, um, things that she wanted to take, and found out there was no space available going back to Japan. There were lots of people like us and no space going back. And furthermore, there were no hotel rooms available in this little town outside Osan to spend the night.
So I called up my friend, who was the OSI boss in Osan, because this was shortly after my—my OSI tour, so I still knew the people. And he called around, and he called me back, and says, “Okay. Go down to this hotel,” [clears throat] “and they’ll take care of you and put you up for the night.” We did. And the next morning, I informed her that she had just spent the night in a whorehouse.
All
[laughs].
Scherer
And how…
McGuire
That’s what it was.
Scherer
And how did you get back? [inaudible].
McGuire
So we went back to the base to wait along with all of these other people, and the, uh, wing at Yokota sent a training flight over to Osan. The Air Force flies training flights all the time. They have to. To train the people. Keep their skills up. So they said, “Okay. Well, we got all these people waiting over there. We’ll send this flight over today to Osan to, uh—to pick these folks up.” And they did, in a [Lockheed] C-130 [Hercules]. The C-130 is a flying truck. You sit in the back end of this, and it’s like sitting in the back end of a big truck, on a canvas seat with very little in the way of heat or any sort of comforts whatsoever. So we all filed in there, put all of our luggage in there in front of us, and then…
Scherer
In front of you?
McGuire
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is a…
Scherer
All down the middle of the plane?
McGuire
Down the middle. This is the bay of a cargo airplane. This is not an airliner.
Scherer
Oh.
McGuire
You—you’ve seen pictures though
Scherer
Yeah.
McGuire
Now, they’re—they’re…
Scherer
In the movies.
McGuire
There—they’re about as—about like sitting in the back of a dump truck. Now, you load over the rear of that airplane. That’s how its tailgate goes down. And they can drive tanks, and trucks…
Scherer
Oh, I’ve seen
McGuire
And things like that. So everybody’s in there. We’re all sitting down, and the loadmaster goes to life the tailgate, and it won’t shut. Can’t get the door of the airplane shut.
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
So he takes a piece of wire, wraps it around the door, holds it in place…
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
Take off to go back to Japan.
Scherer
All wired up [laughs].
McGuire
And my brother-in-law, who is a—at that time, a paratrooper in the Army—uh, standard joke people ask him, “Why would you want to jump out of a perfectly good airplane?” And his answer is “Because the Air Force doesn’t have any.”
Scherer
[laughs] Oh, really?
McGuire
This was…
Scherer
Very interesting.
McGuire
A perfectly good airplane by Air Force standards. You could wire the door shut and fly.
Scherer
Is there anything else you would like to tell us before we end?
McGuire
Oh, I guess that’s probably about it.
Scherer
Well, you’ve been an easy person, because I was supposed to tell you at the beginning, that this is for you to tell your stories, and I’m just…
McGuire
Okay[?].
Scherer
Just there to ask the questions. But it was, uh—I didn’t have to do that, because you had so many stories, and you told them so well, and it was really interesting, and I’m sure everyone who reads veterans’ stories will like this story.
McGuire
If we’ve got time for one more quick[sic] one…
Scherer
Yes. We do.
McGuire
This is a funny one—to me, a funny one. Seattle is bordered on the eastern side of the city by a 20-mile long fresh water lake called Lake Washington. And One particular day, one of my friends up[?] there and I decided to check out some sailboats, because we had a—a sailboat, rather—as the Navy base had sailboats, and do sailing on Lake Washington. And we did. And we promptly knocked the sailboat down.
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
And we got it back up, and then we promptly knocked it down again. Now, the big lesson that I learned about doing that was that a can of beer, if it has not been opened, will float.
Scherer
[laughs].
McGuire
Because the beer we had, we can’t—that hadn’t been opened yet—all of it just floated every time we knocked the sailboat over, and so we got it back up, and we got out beer back on board.
Scherer
Oh, really? That’s interesting. Is it because there’s air in the can?
McGuire
Sure.
Scherer
Or because there’s not very much in it? [laughs].
McGuire
There’s air in the can, and a can of beer is sealed. It can’t get out, and it floats. And I…
Scherer
[inaudible].
McGuire
Didn’t know until then that a can of beer will float.
Scherer
Is there anything else you’d like to tell us…
McGuire
No.
Scherer
We conclude?
McGuire
Now that I’m thinking about it, I could go all afternoon.
Scherer
Yes[?]. Well, you were the easiest person to interview, I must say. Um, let’s see there was something I wanted to say to you, as well. Well, we—we thank you very much for being part of this program,
McGuire
Sure.
Scherer
And, um, I certainly enjoyed listening to your story, so I think you’ll be a great contributor. And…
McGuire
I hope so.
Scherer
So thank you very much.
McGuire
You’re welcome.
Scherer
Good luck.
McGuire
Thank you.
Williams
Today is November 13th, 2014. I am interviewing Mr. [Joshua] "Josh" [R.] Dull, who served in the United States Air Force. He served during the [Global] War on Terror and completed his service as a senior airman. My name is Rachel Williams and I am interviewing Mr. Dull as part of the UCF [University of Central Florida] Community Veterans History Project. We are recording this interview at UCF in Orlando, Florida.
Alright. So to start, I’m just going to ask you some basic questions about your early childhood. So can you tell me where you were born?
Dull
Melbourne, Florida.
Williams
And what was your child like—childhood like?
Dull
Childhood?
Williams
Yeah.
Dull
It’s a very broad question. Um, lower middle class suburban. My dad was actually in the Air Force. I was what prompted him to join the Air Force. So my earliest memories are actually in Alaska. That’s where my youngest sister was born, Heather [Dull], and—yeah. We were stationed at Elmendorf [Air Force Base], at the time. Shortly after that, we moved to Washington. We had two houses there, but we lived in the Tacoma[, Washington] area. I think that could be McChord [Field], but I could be mistaken.
So my dad got out the Air Force and, um—that year. About 1992-’93, we moved back to Florida, so we could be around our grandparents, because our whole family is from the Brevard County area. So, um, yeah. My parents basically stayed broke trying to give us a good—at least, middle class—upbringing. We had a strong support group with our aunts, uncles, grandparents, especially—few of our cousins. So we moved from there to Wyoming when I was in eighth grade—when I was 13. So that was kind of rough, ‘cause we left that whole support group around. Love my parents and they were good people, but they’re kind of hard-lined disciplinarians and kept us pretty sheltered too. At least me anyway, ‘cause I was the oldest. So…
Williams
Alright. So you said your dad was in the Air Force. What did your mother do for a living?
Dull
Good question. She kind of bounced around from job to job while we were in Florida. She kind of—her and my dad met at the airport in Melbourne.[1] That’s where they—yeah. They were working there at the time and got married from there, but—I don’t know if she worked while my dad was in the Air Force. and then I just remember her having an array of jobs when I was a kid. I think the last one was a—she was a secretary at a[sic] optometrist or an optometry clinic. So she’s working now for Empower Wyoming, which helps teach women self-defense skills, and I believe she has a—yeah. she does something with substance abuse prevention in Wyoming, so yeah.
Williams
So your dad served in the Air Force. Did any other family members serve?
Dull
My granddad was in the Navy, on my mom’s side. He was—he served during World War II. I had a couple cousins who were—or great cousins, I guess—who were—I’m not sure—Army or Marines or whatever. They served during Vietnam [War]. Great-grandfather served in World War I. I mean, I currently have one cousin who’s in the Marines. another who’s honorably discharged from the Marines.
Williams
So how much education did you have before going into the military?
Dull
High school and like one semester of college.
Williams
How long were you in the service?
Dull
Five years.
Williams
And when did you start basic training?
Dull
I began basic training on May 20th of 2008.
Williams
And what did you think of basic training?
Dull
Sucked.
Williams
Why do you say that?
Dull
Well, let’s see. We were herded onto a bus at about 3 in the morning, and as soon as we stepped off, people are yelling and screaming and cussing at you. Well, actually not necessarily cussing. That wasn’t allowed by this time. back in the day it was. They cuss at you in private, but whatever. But yeah.
You know, basic training—it’s not designed to be fun. It’s not designed to be easy. Yeah. my first memories were doing my best to not get yelled at. Kind of following in the group think almost. And I remember we’re standing in our bay outside our beds and there’s this guy named Master Sargent Romero just screaming at us. And he kinda looked like Danny Trejo from Once Upon a Time in Mexico. Scary guy, you know? [laughs]
Williams
Alright. Describe a typical day during basic training.
Dull
During basic training? Well, at 4:45 in the morning, Reveille plays. Sleep is fleeing from your eyes as your TI [Training Instructor] and others are screaming at you. “Get up! Get up! You make me sick! Get your ass outta bed!” Whatever. You line up in the hallways and wait for the element leaders or whoever to lead us down—down to the pad, which is outside the squadrons. All the squadrons or all the flights in the squadrons had to sound off—the TIs leading them. You start the day with PT—physical training. So running, push-ups. All the while, people are yelling at you. It got better throughout the course of basic training, but at the beginning, definitely not.
Then you had chow. That lasted about five minutes, if you were lucky. You learned to basically just put all your breakfast items between two thick pieces of French toast and that was your breakfast, ‘cause that’s the only way you could eat everything. Then you had to fall out. Then it was just a lot of marching and folding laundry and cleaning up the bay and doing military in-processing stuff. Regular appointments. And also prepping for the graduation ceremony.
So nighttime, the TI would have a—at about 5 o’clock, TI would wind down with us. He’d tell us what went on that day, what we need to accomplish the next day. He gradually got nicer as the course of basic training went on. That was also when you got your letters and stuff, so yeah.
Williams
Did you have any special training?
Dull
Special training? Like, uh…
Williams
Anything other than basic training to get you ready for some special…
Dull
Yeah. Everybody goes to—in the Air Force—well, in the Army, it’s called “A-School,” but in the Air Force it’s called “Tech School.” That’s immediately following basic training. My original job was supposed to be Explosive Ordinance Disposal. So that’s what I began doing. Learning about various explosive devices, bombs, missiles, other projectiles; how to disarm them; which is mainly blow them up in place. We actually got to do that. That was pretty cool. One of the highlights of my service. But unfortunately, I didn’t make it through EOD training. Well, actually I say “fortunately” now in retrospect, but yeah.
So after that, I went to fuels tech school in Wichita Falls, Texas. And that was completed in six weeks, and then I was ready for active duty.
Williams
So, where did you go once you were ready for active duty?
Dull
My first and only duty station was Davis-Monthan Air Force Base in Tucson, Arizona.
Williams
And what did you do there?
Dull
I refueled planes and also worked with the lab out there—the fuels lab. And operated the hydro system as well.
Williams
And how long were you there?
Dull
Well, that was my entire enlistment. However, I deployed out of there twice, so, give or take two deployments, five years. Well, actually, that’s a lie, ‘cause I forgot training and all that. I got there February 2009. So from February 2009 to end of May 2013.
Williams
So you said you had two deployments. Where was your first deployment to?
Dull
To [Doha, ]Qatar. Al Udeid Air Base.
Williams
And how long were you there?
Dull
Six months, give or take a few days.
Williams
And what did you do there?
Dull
I refueled planes. Yeah.
Williams
So describe a typical day when you were deployed there.
Dull
In Qatar?
Williams
Mmhmm.
Dull
Qatar was an awesome deployment, in retrospect. Well, a typical day was—at least before the Iraq War ended, ‘cause I was there right when that occurred, I think. It was very busy. You’d get there at work at about—well, you rode a bus to work at about—I—6:30 in the morning. Got there at 7. you’d have a morning briefing. Then you’d just take your backpack, you’d load it up—load it up with water, Gatorade—we used these energy drinks called “Rip Its.” If you can find them over here, you, like, stock up on them, because that’s what you had when you were deployed. But yeah, we had like this big stash of just free food that had been donated throughout. You just—that was basically it. You went to truck and you saw the—the shop again for lunch and the—again, when somebody was relieving you for the next shift to come on. After the Iraq—after the actions in Iraq started winding down, though the work load started to decrease, so you actually got to hang out in the building a little more throughout the day. So that was both good and bad. Got a lot of reading done.
Williams
So what was your first impression when you got to Qatar?
Dull
Mmm. Kind of a culture shock really, ‘cause, to be honest, I had never left the country before that so. And, I guess, the reality of actually being in a deployed zone, like, never in my—at that time, I think, 22-23 years of life—did I ever actually think I would be in that place. and—I don’t know—it was kind of scary at first, ‘cause I’m removed from everything. I don’t have as much freedom, just because—it’s not a distinctly oppressive environment. it’s just long shifts and you’re away from everything. Don’t have a car. Stuff like that. And I got so used to my little world over here that—so it was a bit of an adjustment.
Williams
Did you encounter any locals there?
Dull
Mmhmm.
Williams
What did you think of them?
Dull
Well, Qatar was—that was a very awesome experience, I thought. Very—very eye-opening, in a sense, too. We were actually—because it’s a non-hostile country, we were actually allowed to occasionally go downtown with commander’s approval. I got to do that about three times. I could have done it more, but I worked night shift and that basically meant going off base—meant being awake 24 hours straight [laughs]. But I met, um—I didn’t meet a lot of the actual Qatari nationals, ‘cause they’re considered royalty over there. You see them, but it’s not like you actually stop and converse with them. The few I did, they were seemingly pleasant. Um, there were a lot of Sri Lankan-Nepalese people there that—they worked most the areas and, you know, shops and whatnot.
I had my first experience with bargaining. It was an Indian man named Hakthor. I’ll never forget the guy, ‘cause I remember he’s got this jewelry shop. And I just remember I was looking for presents to send home and he tells me a price and I’m like, “No. I’m not paying that.” He’s like—so he sits here, like trying to justify. He’s like yelling, so I’m yelling back at him like, “No. No way. There’s no way I’m paying for that.” I’m finally walking out the door, I say—he’s like, “Come on. Just tell me a price.” I’m like, “Fine. I’ll give you about 400 riyal for that and that’s it. I’m leaving.” He’s like, “You know how much I sell these for? 800 riyal. I’ll do it for you, but nobody else.” So after I buy it, suddenly he’s my best friend. He’s like, “Thank you so much,” and starts giving me all this free stuff, asking me if I want tea. Pours me up some tea, asks me if I want it with milk, and we just sat there and talked. I still remember where his shop is, so if I’m ever in the souqs in Doha, Qatar, I know all I got to do is walk down this little alleyway and turn right and I can find Hakthor’s shop. So yep.
Williams
So tell me about your most memorable day there.
Dull
My most memorable day in Qatar?
Williams
Mmhmm.
Dull
Leaving [laughs]. Um, I don’t know, ‘cause most of the days were just so similar. Even the days off—like, I had my own routine. Um—crap. Most memorable day—yeah…
Williams
Well, why don’t you tell me about leaving—that day.
Dull
Okay. Well, it was a very elating experience, because you spent six months just daydreaming about all the stuff you were going to do once you got back. Because that’s one thing you realize once you get there, is how much of being stateside you take for granted. like being able to just drive somewhere and see people, just being able to go to your favorite sushi restaurant, or you know, just the various things you can do to unwind, like hiking out in the desert. That was something I liked to do out there.
There was a place called Picacho Peak [State Park] between Phoenix[, Arizona] and Tucson. I’d just—randomly, I’d drive there and hike the thing and come down, but you can’t do that over there. You live in a very small compound and—similar area, so—it was—everybody actually cheered when my plane actually left the tarmac, ‘cause we were finally going home. So…
Williams
So that was your first deployment.
Dull
Mmhmm.
Williams
Where was your second deployment?
Dull
That was Afghanistan.
Williams
And what was it like there?
Dull
Not as cushy [laughs].
Williams How so?
Dull
Well, because you don’t get to go off base there, ‘cause it’s actually dangerous outside. V-22 rockets and mortars are launched at you about twice a week. A little bit more during Ramadan, ‘cause I was deployed for those months. 9/11[2] was a particularly scary day. I’m sure those questions are coming up though.
But no, there’s the big burn pits. The air was always kind of smoky. The place was kind of just like—I was in Bagram Airfield[, Bagram, Parwan, Afghanistan], and it was basically like living on a big construction site with an airport. So a lot of left over buildings from the early days of the campaign, and also from the Russian occupation.[3] Right where I was living, there was this big, old, disused—well, it’s been renovated, but it used to be the air traffic control tower when the Russians[4] owned it. So we—it was rumored to be haunted. Yeah.
Williams
So how long were you in Afghanistan?
Dull
That was six months and some change. We actually got held over for a couple weeks. We were supposed to be back around Thanksgiving. didn’t get back until December 4th. Yeah.
Williams
Why was that?
Dull
Um, it’s tough to catch a flight out of there, to be honest. They had to constantly change the itineraries. ‘Cause every time somebody updates on social media, they see it, and then they got to change it, so someone outside isn’t watching and knowing what planes to shoot at. At least that was what I was told. I don’t know.
Williams
Makes sense.
Dull
Yeah.
Williams
What did you think of Afghanistan when you first got there?
Dull
I was a little more prepared for it, but when I finally saw, like, the living quarters and just the base itself, I thought, Man, I miss Qatar. I used to complain about that place and—yeah. yeah. At least I had a swimming pool there [laughs].
Williams
So in what way was Afghanistan’s living quarters different from Qatar’s?
Dull
Well, in Qatar—in Qatar, I lived in these things called—well, I don’t remember what the name for them was. I think it was “trailers” probably. It was two to a room—I mean, it was supposed to be four to a room, but they didn’t do that to you. They just put you in with two people. You had like a mini fridge and all that. Bathrooms were located outside though. that kind of sucked. It was basically just this long hallway with rooms off each side, and it was a single-story building. Guys and girls in both buildings—in—in the building. So you weren’t allowed to go in each other’s rooms but, you know.
Afghanistan—there were more dorm-like buildings. They were about three or four stories. Had bathrooms located inside, so that was cool. But it was like three and four to a room and a lot smaller. Yeah.
Williams
So what were your duties in Afghanistan?
Dull
Afghanistan—I ran the cryogenic element and the fuels department. So basically, my duties were to store liquid oxygen and issue it to the various agencies on base that needed it. mainly aerospace ground equipment. I was also in charge of shipping and receiving replacement cryogenic fluid from Al Udeid. So…
Williams
And what was your most memorable day in Afghanistan?
Dull
Hmm. Once again, a lot of similar days. I’ll say one of my favorite memories from that was the first time we had a movie night, just—yeah. It’s simple, but it was fun. I mean, it was towards the end, and I guess we were kind of like finally growing closer as a unit, just the few of us that were on day shift.
So one night, we decided to make this like, uh—it was somebody’s day off, so that’s how we do it. it was a tradition. We’d run to the chow hall and load up on like whatever free food we could get. It was all free, but, you know. Then we just rolled back to—we had this tent that was basically designated for recreation and stuff, like there was stuff to work out with. It was a big open space and you could just go in there and chill. And one of our supervisors—this guy, Sargent Little, had a projector. And so we just put a big sheet up, and just picked a movie off of somebody’s external, and just sat there and hung out. I mean, if there had been a 12-pack right there, it would have felt like home. So…
Williams
Do you remember what movie you watched?
Dull
Well, I remember we watched Spider-Man and [The] Cabin in the Woods—a couple others. So I don’t know. It was just one of those—it was where it almost felt like I was back home, so that was kind of cool.
Williams
So you said that 9/11 was particularly kind of scary. Why was that?
Dull
That’s ‘cause rockets were falling out of the sky all night around base. Every time—and every time something explodes, like usually they landed on the opposite side of where I was—the east side of base. so you’d hear a boom somewhere. It sounded like somebody was setting a dumpster down, you know? But then, all of a sudden, you’d hear the alarms going off and “Incoming! Incoming!” if they saw it on time. If they didn’t see it, then it’s “IDF[5] impact! Take shelter! Don IBA!”[6] You hear every emergency vehicle on the base and that just kept going on all night.
They were trying to have—they had a commemorative, like five—not 5K [kilometer]—but like “fun run” or something for, you know—to commemorate 9/11,[7] which, I think—I thought was a stupid idea, but that’s just me. Gathering a bunch of people in one spot in a war zone. Sure enough, at—this is the first time a rocket landed during the day. It’s like 8 in the morning, the sun’s up, and I just—I was in the bathroom, I heard “BOOM!” And I thought, They have a signal gun or something? They never shoot at us during the day. Sure enough, I hear the alarm. “IDF impact! Take shelter!” So that was when they actually started attacking us, you know, during the day, at more sporadic, less predictable times, so…
Williams
So in that event, what did you do? Like when they were attacking during the day?
Dull
Well, you stay in your dorm basically. You weren’t allowed to leave. If they—if you were like, you know—if you had to take shelter, there’s[sic] bunkers that you can dive into if you’re caught outside. If there’s nothing around, you’ve got to basically hit the ground, open your mouth, cover your ears.
But that definitely wasn’t the worst one, as far as my experience though. Worst one came a couple weeks later. I was, thankfully, still in the dorms, but, the PAX [passengers] terminal right across the street got hit, and that was a loud rocking explosion. Like, it was wasn’t just the sound of, you know, a dumpster being set down. It was real. like I jumped out of my seat. I was sitting there reading, and one of my roommates was outside, and he came running upstairs white as a ghost saying, “I heard it whistle right over my head.” And suddenly you just start to hear stuff just exploding all over the base. I was actually kind of scared at that one—at that point. So we were—yeah, I think I was about an hour—two hours late to work. One of our fuel trucks got hit. One of the contractors was driving it. If he had been parked about three feet back, he’d be dead. Our expeditor pick-up actually took shrapnel too. Busted out the back windows, holes up and down sides. So that was the closest to home it came. Actually, I think I kept a piece of shrapnel. So yeah.
Williams So do you have any, like—a funny story that sticks out in your mind while being either in Qatar or in Afghanistan?
Dull Um, yeah. Can I say it on a camera?
Williams
Go for it.
Dull
Okay. We had a supervisor that pissed us off. He was this guy named Sargent Myer and—just no one liked him but supervision. He threw people under the bus. He was in charge of another shop and he just dealt out these draconian punishments for rules that didn’t even exist. Like doing a walk around. Walking around your truck to inspect it after you parked it. It’s not necessary, but somebody didn’t do that, so he took away all their reading materials—whatever. This guy was a douche.
So I found out about a site called stickerjunkie.com, where you can pay like 25 dollars for a hundred stickers. So I was bored one day sitting at my computer, and I decided to mess around with it and wrote, “Sergeant Myer licks balls and jerks off donkeys with his mouth.” [laughs] My supervisor read it. He’s like, “That’s hilarious. You’re not buying that, are you?” And I’m like, “We get hazardous duty pay. sure, why not?” I bought a hundred of those stickers and distributed them to everybody in the—in the flight that was in on it. And those are to this day still decorating various places in Bagram Airfield, Kyrgyzstan Air Base,[8] um, a jet engine somewhere in Al Udeid. Yeah [laughs].
Williams
How did your supervisor feel about that? [laughs].
Dull
Well, he didn’t find out until like the last day we left. He saw one of them sitting on the USO [United Service Organizations. So he’s like, “Oh, no.” He tried to laugh it off, you know, like, “It’s cool. I’m not mad,” but he was. He had no idea who did it to him either.
Williams
So did you serve anywhere else overseas other than Qatar and Afghanistan?
Dull
No.
Williams
What did—or how did you feel once you were leaving Afghanistan? Describe your last day there.
Dull
Um, a lot of kind of mixed emotions. I was definitely glad, but—I don’t know. There was just a lot—um, my plan was—well, this is what ended up happening. My deed of discharge was coming up about four months after I got back from Afghanistan. So there was a lot of that on my mind. Knowing that once I landed, I was pretty much gonna have to start getting ready to, um, basically end my entire military career and move back to Florida. Most of that was already in the works. It was just applying to UCF and getting my affairs in order, so there was a bitter sweetness.
Plus, I was in a relationship that was kind of just on its downward spiral. Like, I’d actually—we’d actually broken up once like a week before I got back, but then got back together and—I don’t know. it was just different. I was definitely glad to be back, of course, but it wasn’t—it wasn’t the elating experience that it was leaving Qatar. I guess, just because—I don’t know. I was in a different place then. So…
Williams
So you said that you were in a relationship while you were overseas in Afghanistan?
Dull
Yeah.
Williams
What was that like?
Dull
Hmm. Well, definitely strained. Part of it was—I don’t know. Um, it was cool at first, but that was because we had like just met up before I left, so we were still in that stage of the relationship. We were talking everyday, messaging each other on Facebook, talking about the future when I get back. I’d always—I’d post YouTube songs on her Facebook, you know. Cute stuff like that.
But, after a while, it just sort of—I don’t know—tapered off. I said something insensitive at some point, I guess. I don’t know. I’d probably be—I undoubtedly became insensitive, because, after a while, the stress of the place just gets to you. Pretty soon you can’t, you know—you’re not in a good mood. When you’ve seen enough fallen warrior ceremonies—I helped out with a couple casket missions. I had to see casualties, um, you know—you see stuff like that, suddenly you don’t really want to sit here and type out, “Oh, I love you,” and “Hugs and kisses,” and “Butterflies,” and, you know. So she sees that change and can’t really appreciate it, I guess. so pretty soon, every conversation we were having was just—had this undercurrent of like—what’s the word I’m looking for—I actually wrote a non-fiction piece about it that described it perfectly, but I’ll be damned if I can think of it now. But yeah. Needless to say, there was a lot of strain on that. I’m surprised it lasted as long as it did.
Williams
So what has life been like after leaving the service?
Dull
It was a stressful transition for me, but part of that was ‘cause, as soon as I landed from Afghanistan, I was trying to deconstruct that life and try and start a new one so. I didn’t really have the time to come down from it, I guess. Um, yeah. I dealt with a lot of just anxiety and depression. I had some—I’d say alcohol abuse. I wasn’t an alcoholic, but it was enough to where it was causing certain people—the VA [Veterans Administration] and others concern. Yeah.
So I don’t know, there was a long period when I first got back here where I was consistently pissed off 24/7. If I wasn’t mad, pissed off, whatever, I was depressed. Um, it sucks, but I only remember like one or two days of that first summer here being actually, you know, kind of happy and at peace. Part of that is just—school’s tough, and part of it was an end of another relationship in Arizona that was anterior to the military. But, also yeah. Just having to face that lack of structure for the first time in a while and kind of being in an alien place again. so…
Williams
So do you feel like you still kind of deal with that depression and anxiety today? Or have you kind of gotten over it a little bit?
Dull
I’m definitely a lot better off now than I was a year ago. So it’s still there, but most of that is mostly early childhood stuff that, according to my psychotherapist, was reactivated by my experiences in the military. So, um, yeah. So still kind of a struggle, but not near as bad.
Williams
When was your discharge date for the military?
Dull
19 May 2013.
Williams
And did you earn any awards or medals for your service?
Dull
Mmhmm. There are several medals that they give you, like I have Outstanding Unit Award. That wasn’t a personal achievement. That was—I won an achievement medal for my duties in Qatar, actually. and that was probably the only one I can think of that I earned on my own personal merit. And that was just for, um—for working hard, basically being proactive. I impressed enough people and also did some volunteering there too. I took some college courses while I was over there and helped process some blood units to send to other areas of the AOR [area of responsibility]. so…
Williams
So what are you doing today?
Dull
Today? As in—this. Okay. So today I’m doing an oral history project. Then I’m—I’ve got a class—Women in Hispanic Literature. then I’m going to be conducting my own interview on my friend, Lynette, for that same class. I’m supposed to go to my anthropology lecture hall today, and then community group at my church tonight. and that’s about it. Revising a story.
Williams
So what do you do in like your everyday life now-a-days?
Dull
Day-to-day life. I work at the VARC [Veterans Academic Resource Center] about three hours a day there. just helping out other student veterans with whatever issues they have. Our big focus this semester, besides Military Appreciation Week, was just trying to get people off the academic probation list, touching base with them, seeing what we can do to them to help them out and try to direct them to whatever resources we have available for them.
Then I’m taking a full course load. I’m majoring in Creative Writing, so—taking Women in Hispanic Lit, ‘cause you need literature courses and diversity. Advanced Fiction Writing. I’m an intern at The Florida Review, as well. So I’ve been doing a lot of work with them. And then just a gen[eral]-ed[ucation] class. so…
Williams
Do you feel that working at the VARC and helping other veteran students—do you feel like that helps you as well?
Dull
Mmhmm. Yeah.
Williams
In what ways?
Dull
Well, it’s fulfilling to know that you can—that you’ve helped somebody out. And I also enjoy interacting with the other veterans on campus too. I’ve grown pretty close with the work study staff there, as well. Like, we all hang out together and everything. And I’ve made a lot of friends just from people coming in and out of the—out of the VARC. So…
Williams
So how did your time in the Air Force affect your life today?
Dull
Well, mostly positive. I mean, before I was living in an apartment in Cocoa Beach with a drug dealer, and a—yeah—psychopath. and I basically had a decision to make. It was either stay in this lifestyle and struggle. I’d undoubtedly end up in jail. No future there. I was always working minimum wage jobs.
Or I could join the military, have a shot at going to college. I’d always wanted to be an author, and I’d always wanted to go to college, but didn’t really get that opportunity coming out of high school. So the military definitely served its purpose. The GI Bill [Servicemen’s Readjustment Act of 1944] had been excellent. I’m done with most of the requirements for my degree next semester. So, yeah. I’ve basically attained a dream. Came at a price though, but…
Williams
Is there anything else that we have not discussed that you would like to talk about?
Dull
Hmm. Not that I can think of.
Williams
Alright.
Dull
I’m better with questions, so…
Williams
Alright. Well, that will conclude the interview. Thank you so much for your service and for talking with us today.
Dull
Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you.
McKinney
Today is the 13th of November, 2014. My name is Roy McKinney and we are interviewing Dr. Sharon [L.] Ekern. She served in the United States Marine Corps from 1981 to1990 and now works at the University of Central Florida with the Student Development and Enrollment Service. I am interviewing Dr. Sharon Ekern as part of the University of Central Florida’s Community Veterans History Project. This interview is being conducted in Orlando, Florida.
McKinney
Where and when were you born?
Ekern
Union, South Carolina. September 18th, 1962.
McKinney
What did you parents do for a living?
Ekern
My dad retired from AT&T, and my mom, um, who has been passed away for—gosh—uh, 28 years today, as a matter of fact. She worked for the attorney general of South Carolina.
McKinney
How big was your family growing up?
Ekern
It was my parents and two sisters.
McKinney
Were any of your family members in the Military?
Ekern
Yes. Um, my stepfather was full time National Guard. My uncle is a retired Navy captain, and I have a couple other uncles who served in the Air Force and Navy.
McKinney
What type of education did you have before entering the Marine Corps?
Ekern
Uh, I went to a small, um, junior college, right out of high school, and was there for two semesters. So I had basically one year of college.
McKinney
Was there any focus of your studies while there?
Ekern
No, not really.
McKinney
Uh, why did you decide to enlist in the Marines?
Ekern
Uh, I had decided during that second semester that I wasn’t ready for college at that time, and I had moved to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, where my grandparents had retired, and there was an Air Force Base there. Uh, so I had met some Air Force friends and decided at that point that I would join the Air Force. And then when I went to MEPs [United States Military Entrance Processing Command] to do my processing, they couldn’t take me until like maybe the following year. It was maybe nine months, and I wanted to leave in the fall when my friends would be going back to school. So, um, I basically—when I got—when I was there at MEPs, I told them to take me to see the Marines. That—I didn’t want to go in the Army. I didn’t like the uniform that the Navy wore. So...
McKinney
How did your family relac—react to you enlisting?
Ekern
Eh, well, they had just got used to the idea of me joining the Air Force, so when I came home and told them I was going in to the Marines, Um, it took a little while, especially for my mother and grandmother to get used to that idea.
McKinney
And where did you go to boot camp?
Ekern
Parris Island, South Carolina.
McKinney
How did you feel when you entered boot camp and the whole process of going through—just getting there and your first reactions?
Ekern
I was scared to death. Um, my processing station MEPs was in Colombia, South Carolina. And it wasn’t that—maybe two hours or so. We shipped out on a bus to Parris Island, and I was the only female on the bus. and, um, the person at MEPs had, um, gi—given my package to somebody, uh—to one of the guys that was also, uh, sh—shipping out that day, and he got off the bus with my information with this drill instructor just, you know—he came on the bus and was yelling at them get on the yellow footprints. And then I had to get off the bus and go—and go tell him, you know, that somebody had my package. So I was scared to death.
McKinney
How did you feel about you instructors?
Ekern
Um, how I felt about them now and how I felt about them then is probably different. Um…
McKinney
How about both?
Ekern
Yeah. I was—they kind of played different roles. There was one who was more like the motherly type, and one who was just downright mean, and the other one, who was kind of in between. Um, I was really scared of the one that was just mean, you know? I—I’ve actually been in contact recently with our senior drill instructor on Facebook, so it has been kind of nice, um, you know, touching base with her again. She retired—gosh—after—I don’t know—maybe 25 years in the Marine Corps, there at Parris Island. So…
McKinney
So what was your most memorable experience at boot camp?
Ekern
At boot camp? Gosh. Um, probably the physical training. I, you know—I’ve always been, um—well, probably, more so since. I’ve gotten out. I’ve been athletic, but I don’t know that I was totally prepared when I went in, so that was difficult—the ph—the physical training. So that was probably one of my more memorable.
McKinney
How did being a woman affect you in boot camp?
Ekern
Well, in the Marines, we’re totally separate. I know in some of the, um—maybe all of the other branches—they train together, but we don’t. We’re a separate battalion and, uh, we have no contact with the men. So we were all just together.
McKinney
Did you receive any advanced training?
Ekern
Yeah. I went to several schools. Um, I went to a school right out of boot camp in Albany, Georgia. Um, then I went to my first duty station in San Diego. And, I believe, it was after—yeah. It was—it was after I—no. Maybe it wasn’t San Diego—where I went to another, um, supply school at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. And then after I came to Orlando, I went into the contracting and purchasing field and went to several schools. They were at Lowry Air Force Base, because, at the time, the Marines didn’t have a contracting school so we went to the Air—Air Force schools.
McKinney
So where were you stationed after you were done with training?
Ekern
My first duty station was the Marine Corps Recruit Depot in San Diego. And then, from there I came here to Orlando to the, uh, recruiting headquarters. I was not a recruiter. I did supply, but I—I was at headquarters. And then from there, I went to Camp [H. M.] Smith in [Aiea,] Hawaii.
McKinney
What was your assignment or job while you were there?
Ekern
Uh, I started out in supply and, like I said at some point, uh, in my career, I changed to contracts and purchasing.
McKinney
And, uh, what was a typical day like for you?
Ekern
We usually got—usually PT [physical training] was, you know, the first thing we did at least three days a week, if not more. Um, you know, we’d have—PT was around six A.M. and then have to be at work at 7:30. Most days were like typical work day. You know, you went to work, you had your lunch—you know, you got off at a certain time. There were other days when there might be inspections or parades or, you know, other things that might be going on. But ordinarily it was like a typical work day.
McKinney
Can you describe what it was like working at the Marine—Marine Corps Recruitment Depot at Parris Island?
Ekern
Well, I didn’t work there. That’s where—that’s where I received recruit training.
McKinney
Okay. Can you describe what it was like working at San Dieg—the depot in San Diego?
Ekern
Yeah. It was—I mean—San Diego, of course, is beautiful. And, um, it was good. Um, out there they only trained male Marines. They don’t—they don’t train any women Marines out there, but, um, it was, uh—I think it was a—you know, it was a good first duty station, uh, working with all of the recruits and, um, doing the different, you know, jobs that were assigned to me at the time. And then I worked for a colonel, just in his office, for a good bit of my time there.
McKinney
How did the environments of Parris Island and San Diego compare?
Ekern
Um, well, I mean—it was two totally different experiences. At Parris Island, I was a recruit, you know. I was going through recruit training and at MCRD [Marine Corps Recruit Depot]. I was—I was basically working there. I was a Marine at that point. So totally different experiences.
McKinney
How did the Cold War affect everyday life in the Military?
Ekern
Um, hmm. I would say, at least for me and my job, um, you know, it di—didn’t have a big effect. We basically did what we were, you know, assigned to do at, um—at the recruit depot. It was training Marines at the, uh, MCRD—I mean, at, um, the recruiting headquarters here, it was enlisting Marines. So, um, in my everyday job, I wouldn’t say it had a big effect.
McKinney
How would you entertain yourselves, uh, during your service?
Ekern
Well, um, hmm. Let me think back on that. Uh, like I said, it was—since I wasn’t a—a grunt, per se, you know, um, I left and I went home most days, unless there was something special going on, or we were out in the field, or had some special training. So, you know, I think we did pretty much what everybody would do. When I was in, um—here at the recruit station, I had a child. So, you know, I had a family just like most people and I did live in base housing. So it was—it’s a different community, Um—a different culture. But I would say we did what most people would do.
McKinney
Why were you assigned to the recruitment headquarters in Orlando?
Ekern
I’m not exactly sure. Uh—we have what’s called a “monitor” in the Marines, and they decide where you’re going to be—be stationed. And, um, they just decide based on when it’s time for you to depart a duty station and what the needs are. Um, you can put in for several different things, um—several different duty stations. And this was just one that I had, you know, put in for that needed a supply person at the time. So I was fortunate enough to, you know, be stationed here.
McKinney
Where else did you, um, apply for a duty station at?
Ekern
Gosh, you know, I really don’t remember. Um, I know one of them was in Georgia, because I’m in South Carolina. And I can’t recall now where—oh, Macon, Georgia, I believe it was, because it had a recruiting headquarters there. Um, I thought it’d be nice to be somewhat close to home. Um, but besides that, I really don’t recall.
McKinney
Were you excited when you were assigned to Orlando? Or how did—how did you feel about the…
Ekern
Yeah. I was excited. Um, I was excited about the job. I mean it is a bit different being in a recruiting headquarters with maybe 15 Marines ver—versus being on a base full of Marines. Uh, so it was going to be something different. And yeah. I was excited about coming to Florida.
McKinney
What was it like being a woman in the Marine Corps?
Ekern
Um, hmm [laughs]. It could be different at times. Um, the period that I was in was before Tailhook [Scandal]—if you’ve ever even heard of “Tailhook.” No?
McKinney
No.
Ekern
It was a big sexual harassment scandal, uh, that occurred soon after I got out of the Marine Corps. But when I was in, um, basically, sexual harassment—it was—it wasn’t something that you heard about. So—and women at that time, um, depending on where you were and who you worked with—most men—I won’t say most. Some men made it very clear that didn’t think women should be in their Marine Corps. And so it was—it could be difficult at times. I feel like you always had to, um, you know—you had to be the one to give 110 percent, you know, if you were out on runs or just in your everyday job just to prove yourself.
McKinney
Was there any time that you felt that you had to prove yourself to someone that was—that looked down on you as a woman in the Marine Corps?
Ekern
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
McKinney
Is there any—any example that you can—you can tell us?
Ekern
Um, hmm. I don’t know that I can think of just something—like a particular example. It was more the comments—the everyday comments. Um, it was the things—when we did have to go out on marches or runs, and there were women who couldn’t keep up and, you know, there were women who made up excuses. And, you know, that—I think that made it harder for the rest of us, but…
McKinney
Are there any specific events during your service that stand out in your memory?
Ekern Events such as?
McKinney
Um, anything. Um, s—something that you enjoyed, or something that you didn’t enjoy, or just something that sticks out in your memory?
Ekern
Yeah. At Camp Smith—Camp Smith is built on like the side of a big—I guess you’d call it a mountain. Um, so everything we did was either going up or going down. So anytime we PT’d, we were either running up or we were running down. And we would go on like these marches with, you know, the packs and the Kevlar helmets. And along the side of this mountain—and you’d look down and there wouldn’t be much over there. So that has always stuck out in my mind a lot.
But it was also beautiful there, which, um—I mean, I will definitely have to say I really enjoyed probably being in Hawaii the most, where we were at Camp Smith. Um, with it being on the side of a mountain, you know, we’d look out one side of where we worked and you’d see, um, Diamond Head and look out the other side and there was Pearl Harbor. I mean, it was—it was just a beautiful place to be.
McKinney
And when did you leave the Military?
Ekern
1990.
McKinney
What was your last day like in the Marine Corps?
Ekern
Sad. Yeah. Really sad. Um, you know, it—even though it was my choice to leave, uh, I had just kind of come to a point where I had to decide. I had finished my bachelor degree and I had to decide if I wanted to, um, try to get into an officer program or, you know, or to get out. And I had made that decision at that point to get out. And, uh, even though I had, you know—it was still difficult to do. You know, I had done this for nine years, and I really, um—I really liked what I did. I felt proud of what I did and I still do. So it was hard going from that to the unknown, you know.
McKinney
What motivated you to decide to leave the Marines and not go into an officer program?
Ekern
Well, an officer program isn’t a guarantee. So if I had signed another enlistment, you know, for three to four years, there’s no guarantee that I would have gotten an officer program. And at the time, I had a three year old son, um, and was a single parent. So that had a lot to do with it.
Um, [Operation] Desert Storm[1] was right on the horizon. That started like three months after I got out. So at that point, I did feel like I had, you know, made the right decision. But…
McKinney
What was the—your highest rank, uh, at the time you left the Marines?
Ekern
I was an E[nlisted Rank]-5 Sergeant, but I was a Staff Sergeant Selectee. Meaning: I had been selected for the next rank. Um, but you just have to wait for a certain date. Um, so I was a Staff Sergeant Selectee.
McKinney
Were you awarded any, uh—any awards or medals or citations?
Ekern
Yeah. There were several things, like good conduct medals, national, uh—no. meritorious, um—oh gosh. I had it on my, um, commendation medals, meritorious. Uh, can I look at my DD [Form] 214 [Certificate of Release or Discharge from Active Duty]? I’ve got it with me.
McKinney
Yeah.
Ekern
‘Cause I thought I might not remember something [laughs]. Let’s see. Meritorious unit commendations, um, certificate of commendations, good conduct medals, meritorious mast, certificate of appreciations, letter of commendations and recognition. So those kinds of things.
McKinney
What did you do after you left the Marines?
Ekern
Uh, I decided to come back here to Orlando. Um, I didn’t have a job, at the time, lined up, but, um, I had real—I liked Orlando when I was here, uh—when I had been stationed here. And Orlando was sort of close enough to home, but not, you know, too close. So, uh—and I still had some friends here. So I decided to come back to Orlando. I had a job. I had a civilian job, um, for about six months before I started work here at UCF [University of Central Florida].
McKinney
How did you come—how did you come—become involved with UCF?
Ekern
Well, when I—I—like I had said, I was a contract—I did contracts and purchasing when I was in the Marines. And, um, the job opening here was for the assistant director of purchasing. So I had applied for that and got that job. So that was my—my first position here. So my training in the Marine Corps had, you know, a direct effect on what I do now.
McKinney
I know this is kind of late but what does contracting and purchasing entail?
Ekern
Um, basically we purchased anything that, you know, was needed there on the base. So, it’s—yeah.
McKinney
Is there anyone you still keep in contact with from the Marines?
Ekern
Mmhmm. Mostly on Facebook. So that’s been a—yeah—a good way to connect with people. And then, um, I went to my first Marine Corps ball in like 25 years this past weekend. So that was—that was really nice. Brought back a lot of good memories.
McKinney
Do you feel your Military experience changed you?
Ekern
Oh, yes. Definitely. Yeah. Um, like I—like I said, it’s—it’s such a different culture. It’s—it’s even hard to explain, you know? It’s—it’s like I had a 100,000 big brothers and they could pick on me, but nobody else could. And, you know, the—the skills and the leadership, and the, um—they’re just all things that I don’t think I could have learned anywhere else.
McKinney
Did you find it easy incorporating that into—your Military experience into your career here at UCF?
Ekern
I think it was difficult in the beginning, because the Military is very, you know, black and white. Um, and coming here wasn’t exactly that way. So, even in purchasing, now there are a lot of rules and regulations, uh, in the field of purchasing with the State [of Florida]. It’s still very different than, um, being in the Military. But I think my work ethic, my discipline, um, you know, leadership—I think all of those skills were definitely transferable to what I do here.
McKinney
Is there anything else you would like to talk about with us today?
Ekern
Hmm. I can’t really think of anything at this time.
McKinney
I noticed that you had, uh—you were an expert marks[wo]man in the M16-A1…
Ekern
Yeah. Yeah.
McKinney
How was, uh—do you still shoot?
Ekern
No. I don’t. I did it with my son a couple of times, but it’s been awhile. Um, as a matter of fact, when I first went into the Marine Corps, women did not even qualify with the rifle, which they all do now. But, um—so, in San Diego, that was the first time I’d had to do rifle qualifications, and I was actually second on the—on the, uh—uh, at the range that week. So…
McKinney
Yeah. I noticed it said you were “expert marksman.” That’s very impressive.
Ekern
Yeah. Yeah. Expert with the rifle. Only a marksmen with the, uh, pistol. But yeah, I was a good shot [laughs].
McKinney
I’d like to thank you for joining us here today, for helping us out with the Community, uh, Veterans [History] Project and thank you for your service.
Ekern
You’re welcome.
[1] First Persian Gulf War.