Cravero
Today is Thursday, January 28th, 2016. My name’s Geoffrey Cravero and I’m speaking with Warren McFarland at the University of Central Florida in Orlando. Thanks for speaking with us today, Mr. McFarland. Let’s, uh, begin with some of your biography. Could you, uh, tell us a little bit about where you’re originally from and your upbringing?
McFarland
Well, I was—I was born in Ohio, but we moved to Orlando when I was a year and a half old, so I count myself as a Floridian, and my father worked for the railroad here in Or—Orlando, and eventually went to Avon Park and was Railroad Agent there for many years, and that’s where I grew up, went to high school and—and, uh, where I went—learned from him—I learned the telegraph, I learned railroad work, and eventually went to work for the railroad after I graduated from high school in 1941. Um, had—had planned to go to college, but 1941 was not a good year to college, uh [coughs] and, uh, I wound up working on another railroad division, rather than the one that went through Avon Park, w—working out of Ocala, and I worked there, uh, for like 25 years, and then I was offered a position with the Interstate Commerce Commission, and I went, um—went with them, and uh, we—we lived in different places: uh, Chicago, Atlanta, San Francisco, and Washington, D.C, and I eventually retired as Director of the Office of Compliance for the Interstate Commerce Commission out of Washington, and I moved—we moved back to Florida after I retired, and been living here ever since.
Cravero
That’s neat. Um, so—what, uh—could you tell us a little bit more about your, uh, your parents? And did you have any siblings, or...
McFarland
Yes. [clears throat] Uh, well, I had, uh, two brothers and three sisters. Uh, the three—the three sisters and one of the brothers were half—half-brothers and sisters, but I didn’t know the difference. Um, they were—they were all older than I, and, uh, so—uh, they were my brothers and sisters, and still are. Al—although they’re not living anymore. I’m the only one of the six that’s still alive, but, uh, my parents were both from Southeastern Ohio, and my father worked for the railroad there, uh, for like 18 years, I think it was, and then he decided to come to Florida and get rich in the Florida Boom in the 1920s. Uh, that didn’t work, so he went back to the railroad and worked for the railroad until he retired [clears throat], and, um, my mother, uh, she was just a farm girl, but she—she worked for a doctor as a receptionist, and she later worked, um, at—in the express office with my father, and then, she—when he retired, she retired, and so, uh, they lived—live—they lived in Avon Park until—until she could no longer take care of herself, and my—my brothers and sisters, um, they—they all—lived all over the place. One in—one in Virginia, one in, uh, Ohio, and—and Chi—and Chicago, and one in Dallas, and my—my brother lived in Avon Park his entire life. He said, “There’s no reason for—for anybody to live anywhere but Avon Park.”
Cravero
[laughs].
McFarland
[laughs] So that’s where he stayed.
Cravero
Were any of them, uh—did they follow in the family business of the railroad?
McFarland
No, none of them. I’m the only one out of—out of, uh—out of six, I’m the only one that went into the railroad business, um, and my—my youngest sister’s husband did go into the railroad business, and his son also went into the railroad business, and I had an uncle that was a railroad man. So it—railroading has—has always been pretty much a—a family, uh, affair in many—in many families. You know, one—one person gets started and then—then others go in, but—but none of my brothers and sisters, uh, were interested.
Cravero
Well, you mentioned, uh—that you—your father, uh, was a station agent and telegrapher in Avon Park. Um, could you tell us a little bit about growing up in the depot? What sort of, uh—what sort of skills and knowledge did you kind of acquire as a young man?
McFarland
Well, [clears throat] uh, I—I was always—I was not a, uh— crazy about trains, but I was interested in trains and—and—and the railroading, and I can remember when I could barely, uh, reach—stand up and—and reach the tabletop like this, and my dad had me doing things that I could do in the—like stamping—taking the rubber stamp and stamping it on a piece of paper on—on what’s called a waybill, which is a—a ship—a shipment, uh, document that you fill out when you have a shipment to make, and, uh, I would st—stamp the—the Avon Park’s stamp on there that showed this, that, where it started from, but, that had to have been about about—5-6 years old when I did that, and I—off and on, all—all during my school years, I just hung around there, and I—I didn’t—I wasn’t consciously preparing for a career in railroading. A matter of fact: my older brothers and sisters all went to college and—and—and it was planned for me to go also, but, as I said earlier, I graduated in 1941, and—and they were already drafting people out of—out of my class, and, um, so I—I knew it was a matter of time. So I didn’t think there was much point in going to college at that time.
So I didn’t go until much later, but, uh, it—it—when—when I was in my senior year in high school, uh, that’s when you could see what was happening: the world was in turmoil, and, um—and, as I said, members of my class had—had been called up, and—so I began to learn telegraphy, and my father taught me and I practiced, and then after I graduated from—from, uh, school, he, um, told the—the railroad that I was, uh, sufficiently knowledgeable to go to work, and, uh—I—I didn’t—As I said, I didn’t—wasn’t consciously, um, aware that I was absorbing everything that I did absorb during those years, uh, hanging around the depot, but I learned an awful lot that I didn’t know I’d learned, until I went out on my own and was working.
Cravero
What, uh—did you notice, uh, any, uh, major differences between the—the time of your father and yours when it c—comes to the, you know—the telegraphing and the—the depots?
McFarland
Oh, yeah. Well…
Cravero
[clears throat].
McFarland
When—when my father started, telegraphing was just about—I mean, that was like the major—major, uh, means of internal communication on the rail—on nearly every railroad, and—and when I started, it still was, but it—it began to fade away the—the longer I stayed, and I—and I—I stayed until 1965, and by that time, uh, they still required, uh, uh, people to know how to telegraph to go to work, but—but—at least—as—as—as, uh, operators and agents, but they did not, uh—did not use—use it, because they—everybody had telephones and—and things of that nature. So it was not as—as use—used as much then, and—and probably—well, I left the rail—railroad for the ICC[1] in 1965, and by the early 70s, there was[sic] hardly any railroads anywhere using t—the telegraph. It was all teletype and—and telephones and things of that nature. So that—it was[sic] tremendous difference there, and now, of course, it’s gone even beyond that. It’s all computerized—email and everything else like that. Even train dispatching, which I did for—for 18 years, um—that’s become computer-assisted train dispatching and—and the computer does it. When—when—when I was working, it was—it was all in your head. You had to do it all in your head, but, now the computer—they have what they call “computer-assisted dispatching.”
Cravero
So was, uh—I guess the depot was your very first job you had, or…
McFarland
Well, actually, no [laughs]. The very first paying job I—I worked as a clerk in the A&P[2] grocery store on Saturdays, uh, which—that—in—in a small town like Avon Park, that was about the only job that—kind of job that was available to a—to a high school kid, and there were three of four, uh, grocery stores in town, and the A&P, which was a chain, the re—others were all independent, but everybody—all the kids that I knew worked at one—one of the grocery stores. That’s where you got your first job.
Cravero
[laughs] Um, so I understand you ended up in Ocala, right? But, uh—but you kind of went from—where you were needed, um…
McFarland
Yes, you—when—when you begin railroading as—as a telegraph operator, you—you are put on what they call “the extra board.” Uh, um, you—you—your first day, you establish the date of your seniority, and that means that anybody that’s hired after you—you—you have rights over them on—on—if you want to claim a job or something like that, and—and the same thing hold—anybody that[sic] hired ahead of you can claim a job that’s—whether you want—whether you want it or not, and so, you—as—on the extra board, you just went where you were needed. Uh, somebody needed to be off sick, uh—there were no vacation—no paid vacation at the time, so that—uh, there was not much of that. Although some—some people did take vacations, and you went and worked for them, or they put on extra jobs because of seasonal problems—uh, season—seasonable increases in—in business, they’d put on an extra job somewhere to help the dispatchers handle trains, and so, you worked all over. I worked, uh, I don’t know how many different places. I could probably count it up. Not worth it.
Cravero
[laughs] Um, let’s see. Before the, uh, Atlantic Coast Line Railroad merged with the Seaboard Air Line [Railroad], um, and absorbed the Tavares & Gulf Railroad in 1969, you’d already moved to California at that point. Could you tell us a little bit about what you did out there with the Interstate Commerce Commission?
McFarland
Well, I—I—I—my first job with the ICC was in Chicago as—as a Railroad Safety and Service Agent, and, uh, in—in that capacity, I—I made what we call “agency checks” and “yard checks,” and we—we had two things: we were looking for compliance with the—with the tariffs, which had the force of law, and we were looking for, um, equipment that was not being used efficiently, and so, the—as the—and—and the other thing that—that in—in ’65, we also were charged with safety, uh, inspections of equipment and things of that nature.
However, in—in ’67 —1967, all of that was transferred into the newly-formed [U.S.] Department of Transportation, and so we no longer had any kind of safety obligation, but we still retained the car service, which was car—car efficiency, and—and the tariff and—and regulation, and so, I would go from—to various agencies along, um—in my territory. I had an—had an assigned territory, and I was supposed to visit these agencies on a periodic basis and ver—verify that they were complying with all of the rules and regulations, and that they were not delaying any equipment—and that was being used, and from there I—I was transferred to Atlanta doing the same thing, but, uh—and I stayed there for, uh, about five years, and then I was, uh, promoted and went back to Chicago as Assistant Regional Director there, and in—in that capacity, I was assisting the Re—Regional Director and overseeing all of the people that were doing the kind of work I was just desc—describing, and then, um, in ’73, I was, uh, promoted again and went to, um, San Francisco as, um, Regional Manager, and I had the, uh, responsibility for the 13 western states, plus Alaska and Hawaii. Uh, now, railroads and—and buses and trucks don’t run to Hawaii from the mainland, but—but—so we didn’t do much there, but what—I still had the responsibility for Hawaii and Alaska, and I was overseeing not only the—the people who were doing the work that I was talking about earlier, but I was also overseeing the—the lawyers, who—who, uh, handled the cases that were made and the—and the accountants that were—were auditing the—the books of the various, uh, carriers—motor and rail and barge lines and pipelines, and part of the—part of—and—and when I was in, um, San Francisco, the, um, uh, [Trans-]Alaska Pipeline [System] was being built and we had to oversee that, and the law required, at that time, that—and people usually don’t know this because a pipeline is a common carrier, and so, in order to know what they could charge, you had to know what their costs were to build and maintain the—the pipeline, and to do that, we had to have auditors go in and verify, and about ha—halfway through construction, everybody woke up that this was a nine billion dollar, uh, enterprise, and if we waited ‘til after the fact to—to, uh, audit it, we’d nev—they’d never know what they—what they could po—possibly charge. So we sent a team of auditors up there, and they stayed there for about three years determining the actual cost so that the pipeline could go into—into operation when it was finished, but then, after—I was—I was in San Francisco until 1981, and, um, the—the new chairman that had been appointed by President [Ronald] Reagan, uh, was—knew me, and he brought me into Washington[, D.C.] as Director of the Office of Compliance and Consumer Assistance, and I stayed there until I retired in ’85, but in—in Washington, I had oversight over the—the entire country for all of the things that I’ve been talking about that we did. Plus, uh, a lot of local stuff and—going up to Congress and taking care of that sort of thing.
Cravero
I read, uh, [clears throat] that the Morse Telegraph Club[, Inc.] used to meet at the [Central Florida] Railroad Museum on [Samuel] Morse’s birthday.[3] Could you tell me a little about, uh, the club and how that all came about?
McFarland
Well, it’s—it—it started, actually, back in the 1930s. Uh, some people that were telegraphers decided that they—that it would be a good idea to make—to have a club, and it was more or less a fraternal organization, at the time. I say “fraternal,” although there are a lot of women telegraphers. Uh, throughout the—the whole history of telegraphy, there—there have been a lot of women telegraphers, and probably, on the railroad, was—may have well have been the first industry that paid women the same wage as men for doing the same job, which was not true in—in—not true even today in many—many cases, but, uh, anyhow, these people got together and—and, as I said, it was just sort of a—I won’t say a drinking club, because it wasn’t that, but it was—it was a social club more than anything else, and then it—it sort of faded away a little bit, uh, and just hanging on by its teeth, you might say, and—and then, um, uh—I’m not sure of the exact dates, but sometime after World War II, when—when telegraphy began to fade away, as I had mentioned earlier on [inaudible] on the railroad, Western Union [Company] had al—already almost gone completely to—to teletype, uh, by that time, and, um, so the—the organization transformed itself into, uh, an historical preservation organization, and the goal of—of the, um—of the organization today is to preserve the knowledge and history and the technology that existed, uh, when the telegraph was in use, and, um, we organize in chapters.
Uh, we used to have a chapter in every state and some states had—had, uh, two chapters, but, uh, time has taken its toll and—and, um, now we’re down, uh—for example, the Florida chapter, of which I’m a member, um, encompasses Georgia and—and South Carolina and Tennessee, and—and Alabama. Uh, and so, the membership—the membership hasn’t really declined that much, but the membership of people who actually worked as telegraphers has obviously gone down—way down. Somebody made an estimate, and I don’t know the truth of it or not, but said there were only about 150 of us left in the organization that actually earned a living as—as telegraphers. Um, that may be true, it may not be true. I don’t know, but at the present time, we have probably around 3,000 members and we have around 30 chapters in the United States and Canada, and we—we do demonstrations at—at just about any place that will invite us to do a demonstration, but mostly to local historical societies that have an annual affair and they want something, uh, of, um—that—that has some historical significance, and so they’ll ask us to come and do—do a demonstration [clears throat], and many of these members that we have now have taught themselves to telegraph.
They’ve never worked as telegraphers, but they’ve taught themselves to telegraph, and some of the—some of the members are ham radio[4] operators, which uses a—a different code, but it’s still Morse Code. It’s an international code, known as International [Morse] Code, as opposed to American Morse [Code], which was the kind that was used on railroads and Western Union and stock markets and, uh, all of that sort of thing.
Cravero
[clears throat] I understand that it— somehow you, uh—you acquired a piece of the very first telegraph line that stretched all the way out to California.
McFarland
Yes.
Cravero
And how’d that—how’d that—how’d you end up acquiring that?
McFarland
I didn’t think…
Cravero
[clears throat].
McFarland
To bring that today, uh, but we—we have a website that’s—the Florida chapter has a website, and, uh, an outfit in Utah was setting up, um, an exhibit in a museum,[5] uh, where at a—at a—at a former Army camp. Uh, when I say former, I’m talking about [American] Civil War-era Army camp [laughs] that was one of the first stations on the Transcontinental Tre—Telegraph Line, and so they wanted some historical reference to the telegraph in their museum there, and, uh, they found our website on the internet and contacted us, and we were able to get them some telegraph instruments and assist them, and some months later, they, uh, contacted us again and said they had come into possession of a link of the original Transcontinental Telegraph Wire—came from Northeastern, uh, Nevada—just across the Utah line in Northeastern Nevada, and a man had found it and had donated, uh, a length of it—I don’t know how much—but had donated a length of it to this museum, and they wanted to know if we would like to have a piece of it, and so they sent us about two and a half feet: about 30 inches of it—a piece about that long, and it’s—it’s—it was a nine gauge, which is heavy, heavy wire. I mean, it’s—it’s almost a quarter, uh—not—not a quarter. Maybe, uh—it’s over an eighth of an inch thick—uh, the—the wire is, and it’s almost impossible to bend it with your bare hands.
It’s—it’s that thick, and it’d been laying out in the, uh—in the open in the desert out there near—near the old, uh, Pony Express route and the, um, stagecoach route that went west through there [coughs], and, um, they, uh—they kept, um—they kept it there, um, um—it—laid out there in the desert, and—and doesn’t rust like it would in—here in Florida, you know? It would all be rusted away [laughs] if that had happened here, and so we had that piece of—of the wire, and we—we debated as a—as an organization what to do with it. It wasn’t big enough to use anywhere really. So we wound up—and we cut it into pieces about, um, six inches long and mounted it on plaques, uh, and with a little bit of a history of it on the back of the plaque, and we use that in our demonstrations. Uh, we take it—take it around where—and we—we have these plaques distributed among the membership, so that there’s al—[always] one available somewhere, but it’s very interesting and—and—the interesting—one of the things about it, that the—it was shipped to me—mailed to me in a padded envelope and it was rolled—folded up, and I tried to straighten it out with my hands when I took it out of the envelope. I could not do it. We had to finally put it in a vice and—and hold down one end of it, and finally got it straightened out, and it was so hard that you couldn’t cut it with wire cutters or anything like that. You had to use a saw to cut it, uh [clears throat] but that was what—the wire that was used in the, uh, original Transcontinental Telegraph Line in 8—finished in 1861 [coughs].
Cravero
Wow, incredible. Well, let’s see. Before we, uh—give us a little demonstration, do you have anything else that you’d like to add? Any final thoughts or…
McFarland
Well, I—I don’t know anything off the top of my head. Uh, uh, railroading was an interesting occupation, and I’m sure it’s still is, although I’ve been away from it now for many years. I’ve been retired for 30 years now, so, uh—and I—I’d left the railroad for 20 years before that, so [laughs] it’s been awhile since I’ve been railroading, but, I—I enjoyed the—the—working there, and as I said, I worked as a train dispatcher, which was, um, very complex and complicated job to keep the trains moving.
Uh, when I started, an old time dispatcher said, “Oh, there’s nothing to it.” Said, “You just—you just meet ‘em—don’t meet ‘em too close together or too far apart.” [laughs] Well, its’—that’s an oversimplification, but it—it’s what you—that’s exactly what you were trying to do was—is to move the trains over the—over the, uh, territory wi—in—in the most efficient manner possible, and that, you know—and single track and—and—and, uh, with limited, uh, communication. You had no communication—when I started, you had no communication with—with the people on the train other than handing them up, uh—as they pass an open telegraph office you—you could hand them up orders or, uh, messages of what you want to do, or they could throw off something as they went by, but, um, that was an interesting, uh, occupation and—and very demanding, very challenging. Um, somewhat comparable to an aircraft, uh, uh, air—air controller, except that we couldn’t tell the tr—trains to pull up and go around or—or, uh, fly higher and—and not hit—hit the train ahead of them. They were—they were, uh, consigned to the track. They had to stay on the track, so made—made it a little bit more complicated.
Cravero
Well, I guess, if you would, let’s, uh, give us a little demonstration here. Let me see if I…
McFarland
Well, I’m sorry…
Cravero
Can...
McFarland
That this is not working. I don’t know what it is, but, this—this is the sound [tapping]—this is the sound of—this instrument in—in this is called a sounder, [tapping] and this, uh, box-like object is called a resonator, and the purpose of it is to focus the sound so it can be, uh, heard more clearly, and the can—the Prince Albert tobacco can, we—we now—we call it the “first solid-state amplifier,” because it makes a difference [tapping]. If you can hear the different—[tapping] with and without the can [tapping], and somebody back in the—in the early days of this discovered that you could do that—that, because a railroad agent had more to do than just sit at a desk and listen—listen for this. Uh, he had to be out in the freight warehouse or [inaudible] out—outside with the train going by or something like that, and he needed to be able to hear the dispatcher’s wire when that was happening.
So that, um, uh—that really changed the way that you could do that, and—and [inaudible] I never worked a job that didn’t have a can stuck in the resonator like that, and this—this, uh, is just the same thing and—and—[tapping] with a key here. I’ll move this out of the way. This—this has a key [tapping] and that’s the way you sound it, and you make a dot [tap] by closing the key [tap] real quickly and a dash [tap] by holding it down three times as long as you do for the dot, and you [tapping] do that to spell out, uh, everything that you want to say, and, like texters today, we use a lot of abbreviations. As a matter of fact, many of the abbreviations that texters are using were being used by telegraphers a hundred years ago, but, this is the key [tap] and this is the sounder, and then this called a bug, and it’s called a bug because the logo is a beetle, and nobody knows why they chose that as their logo, but they did.
It started out—if you—if you worked 8 hours or 12 hours a day, which, uh, up until the Hours of Service [HOS] law went into effect in 1908, that’s, uh—you worked 12 hours a day, [tapping] and you worked 12 hours a day with this up and down motion you—you developed telegrapher’s paralysis. We call it carpel tunnel syndrome now, but it was telegrapher’s paralysis then [tapping], and so they began experimenting what you could do to—to alleviate it, and the first thing they did was turn the key on its side and work it back and forth, and they kept working with it and eventually came into this form, and this is now called a vi—a—a speed key, and I can’t demonstrate because my power somehow or another is not working here today [tapping], but, um, you—the speed key—if—if I want to make a—a series of dots with—with this straight key [tapping], it goes like that, but, with the speed key, I can do it just [tap] with—with one movement of my thumb, and so, that relieved the carpel tunnel, but it also speeded everything up.
McFarland
And so, those are the—those are the—the principal instruments that—that were used by landline telegraphers, and that—the—this is called American Morse, and it was used, uh, all over—all over the world, really. It—it just changed the whole world, and then, uh, in the late 8—1800s, [Guglielmo] Marconi discovered that you could send, uh, power through the, uh—through the air and—and modulate it and—and make a—a code—send code through the air, and they did—they did that and—using a—a slightly different code. Uh, the—this code—the American Morse Code has a lot of spaces in it, which makes it, uh, uh, a lot quicker, but, with the—when it went to radio, they couldn’t tell whether the spaces were accidental or intentional, and so they eliminated the space letters and everything became, um, uh, the—the tone then—the length of the tone was—determined whether it was a dot or a dash, and that sounded like this [beeping], but, uh—and that’s still used by ham radio operators and all base radio stations, like your local police station and your fire stations and things of that nature, are required by the Federal Communications Commission to identify themselves every hour, and now they use a computer, but every hour on the hour, uh, these—these stations will identify themselves using International Morse Code, sending their call letters—whatever they might be, and that—your television stations, your—your commercial radio stations, they all have to do this—do that, and they do it. So that, uh, America—I mean, the International Morse Code is still in use, uh, quite a bit with ham radio operators and that. American Morse—the last known use in the United States was in 1983, but th—that was just really an anomaly, because it had—by the mid-70s it had pretty much disappeared, but there’s just this one place out in Montana that still was using it until 1983.
Cravero
That’s fantastic [clears throat]. Mr. McFarland, we really appreciate you sharing your story with us and demonstrating the tools of your trade.
McFarland
Well, I’m happy to do it. Happy to do it.
Cravero
Alright. Well, thank you so much. That will conclude our interview and, uh, we really appreciate you being here with us.
McFarland
Thank you.
Parke
Alright. Good morning. Um, my name is Erin Parke and today I will be interviewing Mr. Hal McIntosh. Today is, uh, March 16th, 2015, and—alright. Um, Hal, can you tell me a little bit about like your early life? Where you grew up, um, if you had brothers and sisters, anything like that?
McIntosh
Well, I grew up in—in Detroit, Michigan, and, uh, I had, uh, uh, older brother—two older brothers and an older sister. I was the…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Baby of the...
Parke
Baby.
McIntosh
Family, and, uh, apparently, my art interest started very early.
Parke
Nice.
McIntosh
My, uh, mother said that, when I was five, I was doing caricatures
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Of my little friends.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
She could recognize who they were.
Parke
Oh, that’s amazing.
McIntosh
I was five years old, and as the years went by—my early years—really early years—my parents didn’t try to rush me into…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Arts, uh, teachers…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Or anything like that. They just saw that I had any materials that I needed, but, uh, they never tried to force me to study, you know, when I was young.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
They just let me alone because that was the only thing I wanted to do…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
As a kid.
Parke
[clears throat].
McIntosh
And, uh—so, uh, I was fortunate, in that respect. A lot of the parents that I’ve talked to in later years that had, uh, children that are…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Artistic, and they say, “Oh, what am I going to do? I’ve gotta…”
Parke
Yep.
McIntosh
“Send them somewhere to study.” I said…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
“Well,” you know, “Don’t rush them into—don’t overdo your…”
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
“You’re pushing them, because that’ll turn them right off., uh, just be—do what you can.”
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
“Cooperate, but don’t make a big deal out of it.”
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And if they’re really gonna do something in their lifetime—what—whatever…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Uh…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Kind of, uh, occ—occupation…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
They might end up, sometimes those interests—interests start when kids are very young.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Sometimes you don’t—you might have a…
Parke
Find out later on…
McIntosh
[inaudible] degree in engineering, and—and you end up, uh, doing something…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Totally different [laughs].
Parke
Yeah [laughs].
McIntosh
I was, uh, fortunate enough to know all my life what I wanted to do.
Parke
That’s amazing, and it’s nice that your family was so supportive. That’s great.
McIntosh
Well…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
They were supportive by not…
Parke
By not pushing you.
McIntosh
Pushing.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Uh,these hysterical mothers that…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
[laughs] I’d seen in the past, uh…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
That, you know, come to me for advice, because their[sic] child is doing some drawings, and—“What’ll I do? What’ll I do?”
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Leave ‘em alone [laughs].
Parke
Yeah, so you’ve been able to make your living as an artist, uh, essentially your whole life, and that’s extremely amazing and very significant. Um, how has that been for you?
McIntosh
Well, it’s a very difficult, uh…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Situation. When you’re an artist, there’s—there’s not a lot of jobs sitting around waiting for you.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Uh, I was very fortunate, uh, in the years that I was at Rollins [College], uh, as a temporary student…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Years ago, of course, and, uh, the brother of one of this[sic] Rollins students was an artist that[sic] I met who lived in Silver Springs[, Florida].
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And, uh, I was, at that point—later on—had a master’s degree from the University of Michigan—teaching there.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And what do you do…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
You know? You don’t walk out with those credentials…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And walk into a job. Nobody’s awaiting for you.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
And, uh, this friend had some really nice portraits of—that he had stacked on the floor…
Parke
Hm.
McIntosh
Against the wall. He was a landscape painter, and I said, “I didn’t know you did portraits,” and he said, “Well, I started with Jerry Farnsworth on Cape Cod[, Massachusetts].” He’s quite a prominent…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
American portrait painter, and he said—he said, “Why don’t you, uh, write Jerry Farnsworth and see if you can get a job as his assistant.”
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
“Learn how to do really commercial portraits, and, uh, that way you might be able to make a living…”
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
“To start out with,” and I did so, and…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, was accepted with my credentials.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Uh, didn’t even have a car…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
At that time [laughs].
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
I got off the bus in North Truro, Massachusetts, and was directed how to walk to the professor’s house, and, uh, Jerry Farnsworth and Helen Sawyer were, uh, uh, married, and she was a well-known, uh, artist.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And taught in the school, and, uh, this was basically, uh, a school, uh—portraiture school.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Minor landscape work—‘cause she taught and he taught the, uh—the, uh, portrait work. I was with him for five years.
Parke
Wow.
McIntosh
He had another school in Sarasota[, Florida].
Parke
Okay.
McIntosh
Uh, and, uh, Siesta Key[, Florida] [inaudible].
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And, uh, uh, I was down there during the winter.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
I worked in a hotel.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
I was busboy, waiter…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Several other jobs—a hotel on the beach—and went to school and taught with him in—in mornings, and that exposure, uh, through five years…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
With him really…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Got me so I was able to make some money doing portraits.
Parke
Nice.
McIntosh
And I had, uh—uh, this hotel I was working in part-time, after the morning school sessions, someone saw my work there and recommended me—unknown to myself, uh…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
To the board of directors of, uh, an art museum…
Parke
Wow.
McIntosh
Up in Virginia.
Parke
Mmhmm [clears throat].
McIntosh
And later on, I was accepted, became director of the museum there for five years, but, uh, those accidental things that happen.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
You know? You meet someone…
Parke
Yep.
McIntosh
Who’s done portraits, and, uh—for three years, I did portraits, uh, in Provincetown, Massachusetts…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, on the street…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Let’s say, uh, I had a studio…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
In a building that was on—right on the Commercial Street there, but at night, I had a display outside and people would book portrait[sic] for their children and stuff.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Pastel portraits, uh, done for $10…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Uh, in a matte and in a bag in 45 minutes. Uh…
Parke
That’s so quick [laughs].
McIntosh
[inaudible]. It was—it was a shock to get—to have to start that kind of a routine…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
But I got used to it, and…
Parke
[clears throat].
McIntosh
Uh,I did six to eight portraits a day…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
For the whole summer, ‘cause I had summers off, uh, from teaching, and, uh, that led—all those portraits I did—hundreds of them…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Literally, I, uh—for three years.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Eight—eight days a week—seven days a week.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Uh, so I had a—a record of lots of portraits in my…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Career. Now, those $10 [laughs] portraits…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Would be $60 [laughs] portraits.
Parke
Yeah, exactly.
McIntosh
[inaudible] at the time, but believe it or not, I bought my beach house on Cape Cod…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
With the money from—just from those…
Parke
Wow.
McIntosh
$10 portraits.
Parke
Wow.
McIntosh
And, uh, as I was saving all that money…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
In cash, uh, in a safe deposit box to go to Japan.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
And this house came up for sale on Cape Cod on the beach, and I opted to buy this house…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
With that money, and I got to Japan later on in years.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Uh, had a wonderful experience in Japan, which is another story.
Parke
[laughs] So I know that you have a true love for Cape Cod. Um, what drew you here to Winter Park[, Florida]?
McIntosh
Uh, my, uh—that’s a story that starts in Sanford[, Florida]. My sister and her husband were stationed—he was stationed in Sanford at the…
Parke
Okay.
McIntosh
Navy base there, at that time.
Parke
Oh, okay.
McIntosh
And, uh, I came down for part of my high school and lived with them in Sanford. Uh, they had an old house on the lake, right opposite the airport…
Parke
Okay.
McIntosh
So the planes were taking off…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Over the house, and, uh, uh, they decided, after, uh, he left the Navy, uh, to stay
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, in Florida, because their son was, uh, a young son…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And was doing better health-wise in Florida…
Parke
Okay.
McIntosh
For some reason. I don’t know what…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
But they decided to stay here.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
And, uh, he, uh—they had a house and[?]—rented a house, right on the highway in[?]—across from Lily Lake…
Parke
Okay.
McIntosh
In, uh—in Winter Park.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Anyhow, uh, families tend to…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Follow families.
Parke
Yes, they do.
McIntosh
And, eventually, my parents…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Moved down to Florida, because…
Parke
Okay.
McIntosh
My sister and her husband were…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Settled there, and, uh, later on, my brother—older brother—moved to Florida, and, uh, my other brother moved to Florida.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
[laughs].
Parke
So it was just gradual process.
McIntosh
Uh, so that’s a story that people in Florida that[sic] are Yankees basically, uh, “wash ashore,” as they used to call it…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
On Cape Cod [laughs].
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, they follow one another, you know?
Parke
Mmhmm, yeah.
McIntosh
It just happened at different time periods.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And I’d go back and forth when—when I was in college…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
To, uh, my parents’ house, and, uh—so we all ended up here [laughs].
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
[laughs]. And I stayed at it, and—oh, Winter Park has been very good to me.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
I had wonderful exposure on Park Avenue for many, many years
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Which a lot of artists didn’t have that, uh—that lot that the, uh, uh, wonderful, old Golden Cricket Shop had a gallery…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Right in front of the shop that was all mine…
Parke
Oh, wow.
McIntosh
For years.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
So I had like 10 paintings
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
In the gallery, and a painting in the window, but it was a gift shop…
Parke
Okay.
McIntosh
That I had that exposure to the sidewalk with—with one major painting
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And people would come in and buy…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Or see paintings there for a number of years, and, uh, right after that, I was with Center Street Gallery, who actually, uh—uh, I think they owned the property that the Cricket…
Parke
Okay.
McIntosh
Was—the Golden Cricket was on, and Hugh McCain and Je—Jeanette Genius [McKean] were friends, and—and Mr. McCain was one of my part-time professors at Rollins.
Parke
Oh, nice.
McIntosh
How they ever let me in…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Rollins? I don’t…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
I don’t know, but, uh, I was only doing art…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Art there, but then, I had exposure at the Center Street Gallery, which was actually ended up right next door…
Parke
Nice.
McIntosh
To the Golden Cricket.
Parke
Oh, okay.
McIntosh
And an almost [inaudible]—almost war situation.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Between the two of them, and, uh, after long years at Center Street Gallery and a number of shows there, uh, I went with, uh, Solarte, which was a—a shop down the avenue, uh, owned by a French gentleman and his family, and had my—I had a big show there…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And had my work on display there for several years, uh, which was another exposure on Park…
Parke
Mmhmm, yeah.
McIntosh
Avenue, and I—I lucked into things like that, but, uh…
Varty
Miller Gallery.
McIntosh
Oh, well, Miller Gallery.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
[laughs] I was with them, but they weren’t getting the kind of support from the community
Parke
Hm.
McIntosh
Winter Park was—and maybe still is—a little difficult in—for a gallery.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Really, I don’t know why, because Winter Park people have plenty of money…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
But, uh, Miller Gallery stayed only for a year or so.
Parke
Oh, okay.
McIntosh
They just weren’t…
Parke
It just wasn’t making it.
McIntosh
Making the sales.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
And they left, so I don’t consider, you know, that a long association with them.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
But, uh…
Varty
Naples[, Florida].
McIntosh
Well, Naples, [laughs] yes.
Parke
[laughs].
Varty
[laughs].
McIntosh
I had careers [laughs] in this—I don’t know whether this leads directly into Naples, but, uh…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Friends of mine, uh, on Cape Cod had a gallery, where my work was exhibited, and they were both professors, uh, in Boston[, Massachusetts].
Parke
Okay.
McIntosh
At, uh, universities there and such[?], and, uh, they did the gallery work in the summertime, and had a beautiful gallery—one of prettiest ones on that end…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Of Cape Cod, and after a few years of success in that gallery, I had several shows there. Uh, they decided to, uh, give up the teaching, made a decision…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And the gallery was doing so well, they decided to have a second gallery in Florida, and, uh, I met them in Florida, and they were in Sarasota, at that time, and they were looking there, and they—both close friends of mine, as well as handling my work…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And, uh, they kept—when[?] we were in Sarasota, they kept talking about Naples, and I said, “We’re sitting in Sarasota and you’re talking about Naples. Let’s go to Naples.”
Parke
[laughs] It’s not far from there [laughs].
McIntosh
And they wanted my advice and stuff.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And so we all went to Naples, and they ended up renting, uh, uh, space in the nicest part of Naples downtown…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And, uh, it was only a couple of years. They were so successful. Basically, the only really good gallery in Naples, at that time.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Now there are probably a hundred galleries…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
In Naples [laughs], uh, but as the years—few years—went by, they, uh, built a gallery on, uh, Fifth[?] Street—I don’t know what. The Naples Art Gallery—elegant, gorgeous, gallery.
Parke
Nice.
McIntosh
Big gallery.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
And, uh, shows, uh, really top artists.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntos
And, uh, it was the—probably one of the prettiest galleries in the country.
Parke
Wow.
McIntosh
From outside and from inside.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
It had mostly paintings, but they also—part of the gallery was elegant gifts, uh…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And antique, uh—oriental antiques…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
In a—just a side gallery, uh, but they were there for years.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
And most successful.
Parke
That’s nice.
McIntosh
And I had 24 one-man shows there.
Parke
Just there? How many have you had in total again?
McIntosh
35 [laughs].
Parke
That’s awesome [laughs].
McIntosh
Uh, but, uh, these shows were, uh, something else.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
They—actually, a one-man show only ran for a week…
Parke
Okay.
McIntosh
Which is unusual.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, people were allowed to watch them hang the show on Saturday.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And they didn’t—people did come. They wanted to see what was coming up, and whether they wanted to go to the opening on Sunday [laughs].
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
And they weren’t allowed to buy anything…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh Uh, which is unusual.
Parke
Yeah [laughs].
McIntosh
Uh, they wouldn’t let somebody buy something that was supposed to go in the show that would not be in the show.
Parke
Okay.
McIntosh
So Sunday night—are—are we getting close to the end here? You’re looking at…
Parke
I’m trying—I’m just making sure that it’s picking everything up.
McIntosh
Oh.
Parke
Sorry [laughs].
McIntosh
[laughs] Yeah, so the openings were Sunday night and this is a…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
This is a riot. Naples is very elegant. I had special clothes to wear when I had my openings, because, you know, you don’t wear pink sport coats in…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
In Winter Park. Naples is very formal, but very…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Resort-y and very rich.
Varty
Bizarre [laughs].
McIntosh
What? [laughs].
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
He—he can’t stop talking.
Parke [laughs].
McIntosh
And, uh…
Varty
Sorry.
McIntosh
The, uh—on Sunday night, people, at six o’clock…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Would line up to come into the gallery, and the doors would not open till six, and here we go again.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
As they came in—sometimes in formal clothes, because they were going out separate[?].
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, as they came in, they were not allowed to buy a painting.
Parke
Hm.
McIntosh
They could look for a half an hour, and, uh, at the end of a half an hour, they could make a bid on the painting and…
Parke
Okay.
McIntosh
So the wife—they—they would come in and they’d quickly [inaudible].
Parke
They’d find one that they loved.
McIntosh
Yeah.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
They’d see. Then on Saturday…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
So they already knew there was one they loved[?]. So the wife would park her husband…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
In front of the painting, and he would just stand in front of the painting with his arms folded blocking the painting.
Parke
Oh, my goodness.
McIntosh
So that the other Naples folks knew that they…
Parke
That that was taken.
McIntosh
So at 6:35, they would[?]—[inaudible] this—the—the wife would say, “We have that one.”
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
And—but they didn’t want, uh, people to presell from seeing the work…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
The day before or whatever—week before—and, uh, they wanted everybody that[sic] was coming to the show basically to…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
To be able to buy a painting.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And, uh, so consequently, uh, the sales were almost always right in the first couple of days…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
For the opening night, and, uh, rest of the week some of them would be out on their yachts…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
And stuff, so they didn’t want to miss these shows…
Parke Mmhmm.
McIntosh
If they looked important, and so I basically made my living, uh, in—in, uh, one week out of the year.
Parke
That[sic] amazing.
McIntosh
At a Naples show.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Uh, and if it rained on the opening night, uh, that—that put a damper on sales.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
But, uh, it worked out 24 times
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
[laughs] So…
Parke
That’s great.
McIntosh
And, uh, the gallery truly—well, it just—you’ll see the picture of it.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
It was, uh, probably one of the prettiest galleries…
Parke
Extravagant.
McIntosh
In the country. Very, very beautiful.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
These guys had good taste.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
And, uh, they handled [inaudible] Glass[?].
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Um, a lot of well-known painters from California and other parts of the country.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And[?], uh, I actually—I’ve always been interested in antiques. I bought antiques in Winter Park for them to put in their gallery.
Parke
Okay.
McIntosh
In their sales gallery—antique area there, and, uh, they didn’t have time…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
To scout antiques.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
I loved scouting antiques [laughs].
Parke
That’s nice.
McIntosh
So I would buy stuff for them, and—and they would se—sell it at the gallery…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
For 10 times what I got.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
I was getting good bargains…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
From dealers here in Winter Park and elsewhere. Uh…
Varty
Don’t forget the Blue Heron Gallery and the Cove Gallery.
McIntosh
Well, I know those were galleries on Cape Cod. I’m not going to forget them, but, uh, I exhibited at the Blue Heron Gallery and another top gallery on Cape Cod…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
For many years. Before that, the Cove Gallery., uh, so I had those two galleries on Cape Cod.
Parke
So you’ve been all over [laughs].
McIntosh
Well, you’ve gotta—when you’re painting every day…
Parke
Yeah [laughs].
McIntosh
Uh, you know, you need the exposure, and, um, just ended up being on Cape Cod, for, today, it’s six months of the year.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
At Cape Cod., uh, when I was teaching, we had shorter summers, but, uh, now, it’s half here half on Cape Cod.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Cape Cod is a fabulous place for artists.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, the light is gorgeous there for painting, and the portrait studio there, on a gray day, the light was absolutely…
Parke
Oh.
McIntosh
Gorgeous on—on the models on a gray day.
Park
[laughs].
McIntosh
Uh, uh, very cool light.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Florida has that hot light.
Parke
Yes [laughs].
McIntosh
[inaudible].
Parke
It does.
McIntosh
Well, [inaudible] it’s not just the heat it’s a harsher light…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
For a painter than Cape Cod. That’s why Cape Cod has many, many artists.
Parke
Okay. That’s interesting.
McIntosh
It’s in[?] the, uh—the, uh, most famous American painter today. Eric? [laughs].
Varty
Yes. Edward Hopper?
McIntosh
Yeah [laughs].
Varty
[inaudible]?
McIntosh
Uh…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Not…
Varty
Uh, [inaudible]?
McIntosh
Not Miligrove[?]. Probably the most famous…
Varty
Uh…
McIntosh
Uh, American painter…
Varty
[inaudible]?
McIntosh
Of—of all time…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Is, uh, Robert, uh [laughs]—Eric?
Varty
Who?
McIntosh
[laughs] Who’s the person you—what was the first name?
Varty
Oh, Edward Hopper.
McIntosh
[laughs] I’m talking and I’m forgetting as fast as I can[?].
Varty
You could see Edward Hopper’s house…
McIntosh
Yeah.
Varty
From Hal’s house on the Cape.
Parke
Oh, wow.
McIntosh
Yeah
Parke
That’s awesome [laughs].
McIntosh
And I knew Edward Hopper through the Farnsworth’s [inaudible] school.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
I went to, uh, cocktail parties with him.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
And one time Jerry Farnsworth said that, “We’re going to this party and Edward Hopper will be there, but, uh, you’ll—I’ll introduce you to him, but don’t expect him to say much…”
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
“Because he doesn’t—isn’t a big talker,” and, uh, I did meet him that night, and, uh, he was a very polite listener and wonderful. Very imposing…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Tall gentleman, but I could see their house from…
Parke
Oh, okay.
McIntosh
Down the beach on the cliff from my house, and anyhow, uh, I wasn’t a close friend of Edward Hopper’s, but we were close enough. Uh, we sat in a Christian Union Church, when they had these flea market sales of clothes and china…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And stuff, and his wife[1] and Mrs. Farnsworth were trying on…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Cheap clothing, blouses and suits…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
And coats, and…
Varty
Uh…
McIntosh
Step, uh…
Varty
[inaudible].
McIntosh
No [laughs]. They would—we would…
Varty
Mrs. Farnsworth was Helen Sawyer.
McIntosh
I’ve already made that clear.
Varty
Oh, okay. Reference her at the Morse Museum of American Art.
McIntosh
Okay. Uh, Helen Sawyer is Mrs. Farnsworth.
Parke
Oh, okay.
McIntosh
And is recognized in major museums…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
As well as Farnsworth was. Both of those, uh, couples—Farnsworth and Hopper—were both, uh, active during the [Great] Depression.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh And they were frugal.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Farnsworth had a garden where they grew their own vegetables, so they wouldn’t go to the grocery store except to buy meat
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
But they grew everything else, and they were used to—during the Depression, Jerry Farnsworth, a famous portrait painter, would make clothes out of old, uh, bags
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Flour bags that they used to have patterns on the big bags of—of flour for his wife
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And very frugal [laughs].
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
And that’s why those two wives were trying on cheap clothes at the church …
Parke
‘Cause that’s what they always knew.
McIntosh
Sale. Well, they just, you know, uh—they weren’t shoppers. [inaudible] [laughs]. Eh, uh, Eric and I would say, uh, [laughs] he—Hopper—Edward and I sat there and he would just shake his head
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Every time they came out in one of these outfits. You know, outfits for two dollars [laughs].
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
But here’s—at that time, he was a well-known painter.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Uh, extremely well-known.Now he’s considered one of the top American painters
Parke
Mmhmm, yeah.
McIntosh
Period. Uh, [clears throat] a wonderful, wonderful man.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
His—his wife did all the talking.
Parke
[laughs] Always.
McIntosh
[laughs] I find[?] out—found out why he’s so quiet, because…
Parke
‘Cause he has a wife to make up for it [laughs].
McIntosh
She—she talked all the time [laughs].
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
That’s probably why Edward was fairly silent, but, uh—a big tall man.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Very imposing man, and, uh his work is—is fabulous.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Fabulous. Really [inaudible].
Parke
It’s beautiful. Um, can you tell me a little about your teaching philosophy? I know teaching was a big part of your life.
McIntosh
Oh, absolutely. I’ve taught for over 40—40 years [clears throat], and, uh, I think my philosophy is—basically, in teaching—is how to teach the students how to see
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And, uh, people don’t see like artists, and, uh, it takes a long time to get them to that point. I also wanted them, uh, to end, uh, up being taught and being brought out as individual painter, not as a [inaudible].
Parke
As a cookie-cutter…
McIntosh
Well…
Parke
Standard.
McIntosh
Not—not the [inaudible]—cookie-cutter. So many students and many of my early students wanted to study with me, because they wanted to paint like me, and I went through two schools with Farnsworth. Later on, Bassford School, where they taught only their style, and the students were painting as much as they could like the teacher.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
My philosophy was that I would expose my students to different techniques. Every couple of weeks, they would have a new project. This week we’re, uh—do an abstract. Uh, next week we’re gonna do this and this, uh, but it—it shocked them, because they
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
You know, they had to start thinking differently
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Because these were specific, uh, instructions that we’re gonna go in this direction…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Art-wise, uh, and I would find [clears throat] after a long time—I had students for years. Some of them by being exposed to different techniques and presentations of art, I would find one person, suddenly, would just glow when they—you know, because they…
Parke
They found what they were supposed to do [clears throat].
McIntosh
Found what they loved
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
And I would say, “Okay, Mrs. so-and-so or Mr. so-and-so, you’re gonna stay…”
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
“With this technique as long as you can.”
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
“Forever, if possible.”
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
“We’re going to keep trying stuff,” and as—as I kept students for a long time. They—they loved my classes, and in spite of the fact they were in shock when I had to expose them to different…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Techniques, but eventually, all ended up with their own…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Style, and that’s the biggest service you can do to a student—is find them and what’s in them.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Teach them how to see.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
I had—students would come to me, practically in tears…
Parke
Oh.
McIntosh
After a couple years studying. They’d say, “I—finally, I know what you meant when you said, ‘You’ve gotta learn to see.’ I see things so much differently.” uh, I’m visual.
Parke
Yeah [laughs].
McIntosh
All my life, I’ve been visual. Uh, I could turn my head and see subject matter around me anywhere or in the gutter.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
You know, I would—I’d tell them, “Look down,” you know, “Look at the cement. There might be something there…”
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
“That’s beautiful. Uh, look—look at that garbage can.” You know, there’s beauty everywhere.
Parke
That’s a remarkable skill to have [laughs].
McIntosh
Well—but I had severe exposure in the portrait school…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
To the particular style, uh, that I was learning, uh, because he taught only his style. After that, you’re—in time, you go to your own style.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
There’s a long delay, if you have been with one teacher the long time. You’re only doing…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
His style work, and a lot of artists do the same, uh, basic work[?] their whole lifetime. People don’t recognize work—my work sometimes, ‘cause one day I’ll do an abstract and the next day I’ll do a floral, uh…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
You know, I love changing from one to another.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
I don’t consider, uh, abstracts any different than…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Realistic paintings. Uh, every painting starts out as an abstraction, and, uh, they’re—you know, a painting’s a painting.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
And, uh, the art world has expanded so much now that it’s gone way beyond painting. It’s in constructions and light shows and huge presentations and…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Sculptures and other things, you know? It’s very complex now, but, uh, as far as the painting world goes, uh, I was just—get energy from doing different things.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
It energizes me, and, uh, uh, I have ideas now, you know, that I could never get to…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
I’m sure [laughs], but I’m still clipping things out of magazines that I like and, uh, just keeping stuff for…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
You know, paintings that I’m exposed to—to, uh, [inaudible] that I admire.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Um, but, um, you should talk to some of my old students that[sic]…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
They’re old like I am [laughs], you know, uh, and they’re having big shows.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Lot of my students, uh, went right on professional work, and work—are making prices higher—higher than mine [laughs].
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
But, uh, they all had their own look, eventually. That’s why I kept students so long…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Because, uh, they just wanted that assurance, and they—still got exposed to a lot of, uh, unusual approaches, but, uh, a core of about 30 students stayed with me for years.
Parke
Wow.
McIntosh
And, uh, I’ve done portraits with a number of my students…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
In the past. I had been commissioned to do portrait, a really lovely lady from, uh, Tavares area up there, and, uh, uh, she had me over to do a—to talk about a portrait, and she said, uh—I realized right away there was something, uh—she had a problem. She’d had a stroke, and she didn’t like the photographs that were being taken of her to present to friends and family and all that stuff. She was getting on and she was very concerned about facial, uh, problems, and, uh, she was still a beautiful lady
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
But you could tell she couldn’t sit for a portrait for a long period of time, but, uh, I took some photographs of her, we had lunch a couple times and talked ,and I did a large major portrait of her, uh, that nobody would recognize
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
That there was a distortion in her face [laughs]. She loved it.
Parke
Aw.
McIntosh
And, uh, her family loved it. She wanted to leave a heritage [inaudible].
Parke
Of course.
McIntosh
Uh, and it was a challenge for her, because she didn’t want to be photographed, and, uh, she had dedicated caretakers and stuff—wanted a picture of her and stuff, but, uh, it happened to be quite a nice portrait
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
But I knew her for so many years…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
That I knew how to eliminate those problems, and I know her, but you don’t often get challenges like that.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
It was a major challenge for me, but in every portrait is a major challenge, because you, uh—you really want to get the essence of the person, as well as the outward visual quality of them, and, uh…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
You have to get something a little deeper than…
Parke
Yeah, is that kinda what you want people to get when they look at your art? That there is something—like, what do you want people to take away from your art, would you say?
McIntosh
Uh, whatever they want.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
[laughs] Uh, I’ve been—I’ve been pleased to have, uh, letters from people that[sic] hated abstract art, and, uh, they see some of my abstracts, and they—they thank me for…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
This is possibly through my nephew, and his dental office has a number of my paintings, and…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, abstracts and realistic ones.
Parke
[clears throat].
McIntosh
And they spend time there and they see abstract there[?]. Uh, they finally say, “Well, I guess that’s alright stuff.”
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
But, uh, there’s a lot of people—just close their minds to abstract and other radical approaches to art, and it’s all the same. It’s, you know—I minored in sculpture. I would just be happy as ever to go back to sculpture …
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
And do nothing else, but, uh, it’s a little hard to combine the two, uh, careers, because, uh, [inaudible] sculpture is messy.
Parke
Yeah [laughs].
McIntosh
[laughs] It’s messier than painting, and, uh, my sculpture—I had my sculpture from Michigan, uh—minored in sculpture at the University of Michigan—and, uh, my work there—the pieces went into a gallery, uh, out of town.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And the gallery owner skipped the country, sold the work, kept all the money and never paid his artists, so I [laughs] never got my…
Parke
Oh.
McIntosh
Sculpture back, and I never…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Got any money from ‘em[?], but that was a wild, uh, [laughs] chase there.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
[laughs] Uh, I’ve done murals. I did a mural at the University of Michigan that was about 60 feet long.
Parke
Wow.
McIntosh
And I’ve done major mu—murals. I did a major mural in a restaurant, and, you know…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Shoe store [laughs] or…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
[inaudible], shoe store. Uh, did—I did some window display of[?] back[?], piddled in a lot of minor…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Careers. Stuff like that, uh, but, uh, it’s all tied up with art…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
You know, but, uh…
Parke
What do you think inspires you to create?
McIntosh
What inspired me?
Parke
Mmhmm, sounds like a lot of different things [laughs].
McIntosh
Well, my vision, I guess.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, I’m inspired by a lot of artists.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, each—each for a different reason.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh Uh, I can’t minimize that
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
But, uh, I just see stuff and, uh, it excites me. I say, It would be wonderful to paint that.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
I still have that, uh—I’m not able to paint eight hours a day, and never did.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
But I paint mostly in the afternoons, most of my life. Uh, do the laundry in the morning [laughs]…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
But, uh, in my teaching career I had to teach and paint also. So, uh, when my students were finished for the week, I got my studio back…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
’Cause we both had the same studio, but, um, I—I get excited to be sitting where we are here, uh, seeing birds and animals and trees and flowers and all that stuff. Uh, I just—I just see things, and I’m, uh, fortunate in, uh—if I have photographs of things…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
I can’t see again. Uh, I painted outside for years. Uh, as I got—you know, later on in my career, I did everything in the studio and worked from, uh, reference material.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, tons of reference material. Like an illustrator…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Has tons of…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Material to work from, but, uh, my paintings got large, and if you’re painting outside in the wind…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
And the—you know, the painting is flopping…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
In the wind, and, uh, also, uh, I find that painting outside quite often, uh—when you get the painting inside you see that the colors are difficult to…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Being out in the hot sun.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Uh, transferring that, uh, you know—it’s not as good when you get it inside…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
So—and, uh—but I think you have to paint from life outside, and from portraits, you have to paint from life to learn how to paint without the sitter or without being in front of the subject.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Because your, uh, inventiveness comes out when you’re isolated in your studio.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
You may have started something out. I’m working on an abstract now, and, uh, just as a joke I’m—when it gets in the show, I’m gonna call it Two Horses, and it’s an abstract painting.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
But if you’ll look—I mean, before you leave there [coughs]—two Chinese, wooden horses in my apartment here.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
I was painting them on Cape Cod. [inaudible] was painting of both of those horses, and I just got, eh—I wasn’t getting the way I wanted to. so I started scribbling them out with other colors, and underneath is the[?] abstraction—or[?] is the painting of these two horses, but, uh, when it doesn’t work, you know it, and you say, Well, I gotta go on, and to paint the canvas white—to get rid of the two horses—is a shame, because there’s color there…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And there’s[sic] shapes there, and do your new painting into that, leaving some of the—you can’t recognize anything about…
Parke
Yeah [laughs].
McIntosh
The horses, but, uh, that’s where the painting start out.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
If it were ever, uh, X-rayed [coughs]—my voice is so weak from my breathing problems, uh, but I’m sure it comes out…
Parke
Oh, yeah.
McIntosh
In your machine.
Parke
It’ll show up well.
McIntosh
But, uh, [clears throat], uh, if they ever X-rayed [laughs] that painting…
Parke
Then you would…
McIntosh
You would see…
Parke
See it [laughs].
McIntosh
The horses there, and, uh—but other abstracts just paint themselves.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
But, uh, once you get something down on a canvas—I don’t care what it is—just a splash of blue out—out of the blue—the—the rest of the work you’re painting into that piece—it’s a—it’s a piece of the puzzle.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
It may have nothing to do with…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
The final painting but, uh, you know, there’s a lot more in a painting than people know.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Because they don’t see the progression of it.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And that’s why, uh, it, uh—I men—wanna mention these TV shows with artists, because most artists don’t consider those people…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Artists [laughs]. I don’t[?]—cancel that…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
[laughs] Uh, but anyhow, it’s—it’s—it’s a wonderful career.
Parke
Good.
McIntosh
nd the—you saw some of my acting photographs there? [laughs].
Parke
That was wonderful [laughs].
McIntosh
Well, done a little bit of that, but, uh…
Varty
Winter Park Arts Festival also.
Parke
Yeah, um, the Winter Park Arts Festival—you were kind of a founding member of that. That’s a big deal.
McIntosh
Yes.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
And I lived just down the street from the festival. Uh, I lived across the street from the Langford Hotel…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Which is gone now, Uh, and—and I mentioned that was my Japanese house, which was quite a—a notable thing in Winter Park, because there weren’t any Japanese houses here, and I had been to Japan, and, uh, had a house fire, and remodeled the whole place in Japanese style…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
After my visit to Japan. Anyhow, during the Art Festival years, I was walking all my materials down to the Park Avenue, and, uh, setting up in front of my…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Golden Cricket Gallery, and, uh, after two years, I realized that I’m on the street…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Trying to sell paintings, and [laughs] my studio is—or my gallery—was right behind me…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
And they make a commission on—on the sale of paintings, so that’s why I only did the Art Festival for…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
I don’t know—four or five years
Parke
A few years?
McIntosh
Uh, ‘cause I had gallery connections…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
On the Avenue, and you don’t do that. You…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Your gallery,back then, was taking 33 and a third percent.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Nowadays, [clears throat] it’s 50 percent, and in New York, some galleries taking[sic] 75 percent.
Parke
Wow, wow.
McIntosh
So the art—people don’t realize that artists that[sic] work in galleries are—are paying…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Quite a commission to galleries, especially if you get the kind of exposure that New York…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Major galleries give you, uh, but, uh, I—I—I opted out of the Art Festival, because, you know, it just was—I was competing…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
With myself [laughs].
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
But, uh, it was fun back in those years.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
You know, because it was pretty much local, and, uh, it grew and grew and grew and grew, and now, many[?] artists go—they paint and sculpt and do their craft part of the year, and the rest of the year, they travel…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
With a show—street shows—and they have their tents and all that stuff, and that’s half of their exposures…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Possibly happen because they don’t have to pay the galleries…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
You know? Uh, that’s not the only reason it’s good exposure, but, um, it’s a wonderful learning experience to…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
To have your work shown anywhere.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Uh, you—you get comments, you get criticisms, and, uh, you get to see your own work.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
My paintings generally don’t hang around. I think I told you this before.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Uh, when I finish a painting—and through the years having gallery associations—when I think the painting’s finished, I frame it and get it to the gallery…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And I forget them, because I’m thinking of the one I’m working on.
Parke
The next one [laughs].
McIntosh
Yeah.
Parke
The upcoming one [laughs].
McIntosh
The next one.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
And, uh, I’ve only hung one painting, uh, of my own…
Parke
Yeah, that’s what you had told me before.
McIntosh
In my apartment and, uh, my house in Winter Park. Uh, it’s a very large, abstract painting, and you won’t believe this, but I don’t—I’ve never hung my own paintings.
Parke
What’s the reason behind that? Do you have a reason?
McIntosh
Uh, I—I wanted them to—to go to the gallery and sell.
Parke Mmhmm.
McIntosh And I—I’m interested in a new one. I don’t wanna…
McIntosh Yeah.
Parke If I kept that painting sitting around—you…
McIntosh
I’d see something…
Parke
You keep moving forward.
McIntosh
And change either[?] this or what[?], but, uh, I just got rid of it, so I could get on with the next…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
One, and, uh, I produced a lot of work…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Over the years, but that particular painting, uh, sold to my friend’s[2] mother, and hangs in the Mayflower.
Parke
Wow.
McIntosh
She’s got it in her apartment. It’ll be in the show.
Parke
Oh, okay.
McIntosh
And just ran across a letter from Maury Hurt, who I told you is…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Part of the best artists in…
Parke
Yeah [laughs].
McIntosh
In Winter Park and Orlando. Uh, there was a very nice, sensitive letter from him from a show that I had, uh—and that painting, he mentions specifically. [inaudible] I think I’ll have that framed…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
And put it next to the painting in the show, because people know who Maury Hurt is here, and his word, uh…
Parke
Is important.
McIntosh
It was a compliment. It was an extreme compliment
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
But the way he worded it, it’s like an artist…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Words something. Not like a—just a casual visitor. It’s a sensitive…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Approach that he put in this letter to me. So you’ll see that letter. Here you can read it if you want, but, uh, I would be happy to keep painting…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
For the rest of my days, for the next 20 years.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Uh, I remember seeing pictures of, uh, artists, [inaudible] not [inaudible], but, uh—I’m losing it now for a minute—but I was bedridden—he was bedridden anyhow. I can’t think of his name, and they made eight-foot brushes for him.
Parke
So he could reach?
McIntosh
So he could reach the canvas. That’s how artists—some artists are [laughs].
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Uh, I—I could paint hundreds more pictures.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
But [laughs], uh, [inaudible] wheel me around pretty soon.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Um, it’s been, uh, interesting talking to you, and, uh, I hope some of this stuff…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
You understand.
Parke
Oh…
McIntosh
[inaudible].
Parke
This is wonderful.
McIntosh
[laughs] Sorta different than other teachers.
Parke
It’s been great talking to you.
McIntosh
Especially…
Parke
I feel like I’ve learned a lot.
McIntosh
Good. Well…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
So you can paint now.
Parke
I can.
McIntosh
Yep.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Anybody can paint.
Parke
Um, can I ask you one last question?
McIntosh
Sure.
Parke
Um, I know that you worked at the [Albín] Polasek Museum [& Sculpture Gardens]. Did you know Albín [Polasek] and his wife, Emily [Muska Kubat Polasek]? And…
McIntosh
Yes.
Parke
How was that for you? How were they?
McIntosh
Uh, Albín, I didn’t know that well.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, saw him just on different occasions and talked, but Emily, I knew and sat with her. Uh, she made cookies for me…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
[laughs] And cookies that are from her home country[3]—very complex little cookies—and she even gave me the equipment to make them myself.
Parke
Wow [laughs].
McIntosh
But, uh, I—knowing Albín and being a—a sculptor myself part-time, uh—and also, my [coughs]—my brother-in-law, Ken Wacker, along with, uh, Rever Haines, the lawyer, were very influential in the early Polasek years.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And keeping the estate, and running the—the home [inaudible].
Parke The institution, yeah.
McIntosh And—and working on its future…
Parke Mmhmm.
McIntosh Uh, through Albín when he was alive, and then very, very kindly through Emily, because, uh, she was left, but they—they were extremely influential in the early years, and, uh, I was Artistic Consultant for the museum for five years.
Parke Wow.
McIntosh
nd, uh, I actually climbed up on the huge painting of the Man Carving His Own Destiny…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
And I was cleaning that and doing that[?]. I also knew, uh, so much about what Albín would—would have liked.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, and that’s a, uh, very sensitive thing, because, uh, you’re put with responsibility when an artist is gone, and, uh, he specifically had feelings—different feelings—about his work that I could see.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And, uh, I restored things, uh, that I discovered that he had done.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Uh, and I realized how, uh, religious a man he was.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Totally dedicated to his religion,[4] and then my partner and I, uh, designed, uh, the wall in front of the museum and the gates that…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Go in, and, uh, Eric Varty, uh, did the chapel—over the ceiling of the chapel—uh, and I had, uh the paintings of the Stations of the Cross framed and redone, because they were actually rotting out in…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
That damp studio, and, uh, I did a patina—a painted patina—on all of the—the Stations of the Cross were do—done in plaster.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And they were white, and I first saw them stacked somewhere, and I convinced my brother-in-law…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
That they should be put on a wall, and they built this wall and installed these plasters on the wall—life-size from the original. I painted them and painted a patina, which is done to age the…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
o, uh, fake the age of a—of a bronze piece.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And I did that, uh, on all the statues.
Parke
That’s amazing.
McIntosh
Uh, those stations, and, uh, they were later, uh, reproduced by another artist for a client, and they came down, and now they’re having some of them cast
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Some of them are still plaster, but, uh, it just, uh—that portrait of, uh, Albín [clears throat] that hangs in the museum was done, uh, by Charles Hawthorne.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
A beautiful portrait was over the mantle. I don’t know where it is now, uh, but Charles Hawthorne was a Cape Cod painter
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And my teacher, Jerry Farnsworth, and his wife, Helen Sawyer—both famous painters—studied with Hawthorne.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
So, uh, coincidence to…
Parke
I was going to say that…
McIntosh
To…
Parke
That’s a huge coincidence.
McIntosh
I didn’t know Hawthorne, but, uh, Hawthorne’s a fabulous, fabulous…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, painter of figure—of the figure. Uh, Cape Cod has—museum has wonderful work…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Of his in Provincetown, but he taught in Provincetown, uh, in the open air, had models out by the beach.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
There are old photographs of my teachers at their easel…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
With him teaching with, uh, Provincetown…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Harbor in the background, and[?]…
Parke
And he just so happened—just so happened to paint Albín too.
McIntosh
Well, I just—I don’t know how they commissioned it—how they found this fabulous painter to do Albín—but Albín must have known his work…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, because that is a great portrait.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, but it’s a small world, you know?
Parke
That’s crazy.
McIntosh
Uh, and late in years that I, you know—way back, when I [inaudible] knew Albín briefly, uh, I met another sculptor—a major sculptor—Mahonri [Macintosh] Young, the grandson of Brigham Young. I was in his studio and I forgot where it was…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
But I was invited somehow to get into his studio.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
And there was this huge portrait of a seated gentleman, and it was like about 25 feet tall, you know, in his studio in—in clay.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
It was going to be cast, and, uh, as a young student and learner, [laughs] I was so impressed seeing the scale of that work, uh, and, uh, he said, “Oh,” uh, you know, “this is gonna be cast.” He said, “I’m sorry you weren’t here when I was working on the 80 foot—180 foot tall piece,” in…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
In back[?]—it was—took a whole train…
Parke
Wow.
McIntosh
To take this sculpture…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
To, uh, the—where the [inaudible]—Mormons in—in, uh—where—where are all the Mormons at?
Parke
In Utah.
McIntosh
In Utah.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
And it’s a gigantic, uh, statue with dozens of figures on it. Uh, I had no idea the height of it, but it’s a major…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Piece, and, uh, uh, to see stuff in the studio that’s going to go to the foundry, you know, eventually, and just—I’ve been very lucky to have those visits.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And I had private visits with one of the top American architects, uh, Philip [Cortelyou] Johnson. The famous Glass House[5] in—in [New Canaan,] Connecticut…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, was a famous American, uh, accomplishment for—he’s—he’s passed away now, but I was—had private visit with him with, uh, another architect friend of mine to see this Glass House in person…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And to meet him, and, uh, I’ve just been very lucky to have exposure to…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Some very great people, and anyone who knows architecture knows—knows, you know, Phillip Johnson, right up there with the top architects in—in the world, but, uh, his house was fabulous.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
It’s in the woods, basically, and it has no light fixtures…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
In the house at all. The, uh—all the walls are glass all the way around, and the house is lighted by lights outside in the trees that you can’t see.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And on a rheostat[?], those lights can be turned on, so you can read in the house, and you never see a lamp or anything.
Parke
That’s amazing.
McIntosh
It’s an amazing house. You’ll…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
You’ll see it…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
In a book, uh, and…
Varty
There’s also your involvement with, uh, Maitland Art Center and [Jules] Andre Smith.
McIntosh
Well, I can’t talk forever.
Varty
That’s a good story.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
[laughs] She’s gonna run out of juice [laughs].
Parke
[laughs] I was going to say, I can come back another day…
McIntosh
Oh.
Parke
And we can talk about a lot more stuff too.
McIntosh
Well, that’s a—quite a good story for you—my association with, uh, [J.] Andre Smith.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
At the Maitland Art Center.
Parke
That’s kinda where you got your, like—kinda your main start here, right? In Florida? Is that where you kinda began?
McIntosh
Uh, well, I began…
Parke
[laughs] Many years before…
McIntosh
Many years before.
Parke
But [laughs]…
Varty
High school.
McIntosh
But the, uh—my association with Andre Smith is worth a—another little time…
Parke
Okay.
McIntosh
And you’ve got plenty of…
Parke
Got a lot of stuff.
McIntosh
Yeah, but, uh, I was very close to Andre Smith, and I happened to be the only living, uh, Bok Fellow.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, I was, uh, at—invited to live there, and I had my own studio there three different years.
Parke
Wow.
McIntosh
Different times…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Before I went in the service and came out of the service, and I was very close to Andre Smith. It was called the [Maitland] Research Studio…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Then, and the—the artists that[sic] were invited there, uh, found and all financed by Mary [Louise] Curtis Bok[6]…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Of Bok Tower [Gardens][7]…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
In [Lake Wales,] Florida. They were all older artists, and I was the only—I was 18.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
You know?
Parke
You were a baby still.
McIntosh
Well, yeah, I was, ‘cause[?] compared to them, they were all well-known
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And, uh, uh, I became very friendly with, uh, the brother of Maurice [Brazil] Prendergast who’s…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
A famous, well-known painter—American, uh—well, landscapes, figures…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, but the brother—brother was at the, uh, Research Studio, at that time [clears throat]—Charles, uh, Prendergast—and, uh—well, that’s another story.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
I’m getting [inaudible]. My voice is wearing.
Parke
Yeah—no.
McIntosh
Uh…
Parke
We’ve got a lot of stuff, so thank you so much for talking with me.
McIntosh
Oh, it was my pleasure.
Parke
And I know—I’m sure we’ll talk again soon.
McIntosh
Yeah…
Parke
Thank you.
McIntosh
And I—I gotta show you those two horses inside [laughs].
Parke
Oh, I’m very excited about it [laughs].
[1] Josephine “Jo” Verstille Nivision Hopper.
[2] Eric Varty.
[3] Kubat was born in Prague, Czechoslovakia (present-day Czech Republic).
[4] Roman Catholicism.
[5] Also known as the Johnson House.
[6] Later known as Mary Louise Curtis Bok Zimbalist.
[7] Also known as Bok Mountain Lake Sanctuary and Singing Tower.
Calvert
My middle name is Calvert, which is my mother’s last name, and she and I are related to the Virginia Calvert, and that goes all the way back to Lord Baltimore.[1] The first one was George [Calvert] and the second was Charles [Calvert]. Anyway, one of my crazy relatives tried to sue the City of Baltimore, claiming the land was his. Needless—he didn’t get very far, and of course, there was a Calvert whiskey at one time, and they have one of these genealogy books—it’s an advertisement—and they got up to my mother and me, and they didn’t carry it on any further, so I stopped drinking their dang whiskey.
Phyllis
You never did anyway.
Calvert
But that’s my story. I’m going to stick to it.
Thompson
Well now, Lord Baltimore came from England, but Calvert whiskey—I thought that was scotch?
Calvert
No, it was a blended one made by a Canadian.
Thompson
So your family is English?
Calvert
All English.
Thompson
So how’d you get to Sanford?
Calvert
I’m in the engineering business and we came down here. One of the senior partners, Just Deets[sp], visited a Northern client of ours in Champaign-Urbana, Illinois, by the name of Cecil Osier, and we had done work for Cecil up there doing developments, and he was down here building a bunch of manufactured homes that don’t look very nice, but they’re over on Summerlin [Avenue] around there—those little box homes? And Deets stopped by to see him, and he told Deets that the city didn’t have a sewage plant at the time, and he said that they were going to interview for an engineer to design the sewage plant and that we should apply, and so Deets went down and met old Leffler and Busch[sp] —two of the old families in Sanford—and they were in a partnership. Busch later became [inaudible] engineer.
Thompson
Leffler—was that the Judge [Kenneth Murrell] Leffler?
Calvert
It was his brother. His older brother was an engineer. We formed a partnership with them, and I was sent down here to do the inspection. Decided I liked the place and came down and started an office. Over the years, that turned into what now is CPH—Conklin, Porter, [&] Holmes [Engineers, Inc.].
Phyllis
And when he came down to inspect this sewage plant, we had gone down to my grandmother’s in Southern Florida…
Calvert
I came in 1963.
Phyllis
My son is fourth generation Floridian. I was born in Florida. My dad came down here to help build houses back up after the 1928 hurricane, so he met my mother and they got married and had me, and then I was only here six months, but I lived up North about 35-40 years.
Thompson
Where was your home up North?
Phyllis
In Southern Illinois.
Thompson
And that’s where you came from too?
Calvert
No, I came from Northern Illinois—outside Chicago.
Phyllis
And we met at the University of Illinois.
Calvert
I came home from [the] Korea[n War] and went back to school working on a Doctor’s degree, and went to a church service—a social event—and met her there, and that’s how…
Phyllis
Immediately, we knew we were for each other [laughs].
Calvert
That was a long time ago. We were married 55 years ago.
Thompson
So how did you know right away that he was the one?
Phyllis
Well, he looked good and he had a graduate degree, and I decided—and he was a Christian. I thought he was, and he was, because we met in a Presbyterian church there on campus, and I just thought, “That’s the right one.” I don’t know what he thought, but anyway, we got married.
Calvert
The program that evening was on Korea, and of course, I knew much about that.
Phyllis
So he was sitting there by me telling me all of this stuff about Korea and I thought, “Oh, this man sounds so fascinating.” [laughs] So we married and lived up there about seven or eight years, and then he came down and we said, “Let’s go visit grandmother.” And he had never been to Florida and he said, “Oh, this weather is so nice down here. I wish we could start a branch office down here.” and that’s what he told the firm up North and they said, “Yes, go down and start it.” So he did.
Calvert
I was general manager up there.
Phyllis
Here, he was in business with William Leffler for a short period of time, and then William decided that he didn’t want to be in engineering. Very bright, bright man, but he decided he wanted to go back and farm or have his properties out near Osteen or something like that, but the amazing story is that we came here right about when integration was starting in the schools in the early Sixties and William…
Calvert
I got somewhat discouraged by the situations and decided that even though I had a good client base, that I wanted to go back up North, and I went back to see if I could get my old job back and the company said “Yes.” But in the meantime, the city manager and Lee Moore called up there and said, “We don’t want you to leave.” And they said, “If you come back, we’ll let you design a marina for us.”
Phyllis
So he designed the marina and it was built in ’67, and the amazing part about that was that, at that time, you could dredge part of the stuff up from the lake and make the 13 acres of ground that the hotels and stuff are sitting on. Today, you could not do that. They would not let you dredge up and put more land…
Thompson
So you deepened the lake by taking the…
Calvert
Dredged it up and built an isle, and then the roadway and all to it and I designed the dry storage building out there and the docks—the whole thing. That was a long time ago.
Thompson
Well, we’ve had a lot of stories about what happened in integration and what the situation was with the blacks—what happened?
Calvert
Well, I was with William Leffler, and we were going to Eustis and he had—well anyway, we got shot at by a bunch of black folks. He had a citizens’ white council…
Phyllis
He belonged to the White Citizens’ Council, which is the KKK [Ku Klux Klan].
Calvert
No, no. They are two different organizations. He belonged to both, and a car pulled alongside of us and somebody pulled out a gun and shot at us, and we chased them—of all things. I didn’t have any interest in that. I was in Jim Spencer’s—the bar—when the first blacks came in there, and that was something.
Thompson
How did that happen?
Calvert
Many of the regular customers got up and left, and they were ignored for a considerable period of time, and they just sat there and waited, and finally the owner did go and asked them what they wanted. It was a very awkward situation, but they did get served. Most of the customers left.
Phyllis
At that time they were trying to integrate the schools here and William Leffler had a…
Calvert
Honey, let’s not get into that.
Phyllis
Well, anyway—it was in Time magazine.
Thompson
It’s history.
Calvert
Well, first I had an experience. Our son was a gifted student up North and we got down here—that was one of the disappointments. The schools here weren’t anywhere near as good as the Northern ones and he was in a gifted class up there, and I noticed that the textbooks said, “For average and below students.” That bothered me badly, because he wasn’t average or below. So I went in to see the superintendent of the schools and said, “How do you expect to raise that level if you keep teaching for average and below?” And it was Ray Milwee, and he said, “Well, that’s what our students are—average and below.” I said, “Don’t you want to change that?” He said, “You can’t change that.” So I had absolutely no luck, but later William went in and his daughter had a black teacher—the first black teacher in the schools—and he didn’t like that at all. Wouldn’t accept it, so he went in and confronted Milwee with the same situation, and Milwee wouldn’t change it so William hit him. Beat him up and it made Time magazine. It was quite a—and he pleaded—the funny thing is I got a jury summons to be a juror in his trial. I went over to the courthouse and I knew the prosecuting attorney well, and he said, “Cal, what are you here for?” I said, “I came to be a juror in William’s trial.” and he said, “Like hell you did.” He went in and got the judge to dismiss me, and that’s, of course, what I wanted, but it was funny.
Phyllis
And at the same time, the neighbors we had up North where we lived—it was a mixed neighborhood. There was a Chinese family, a black family—and I will say, they were culturally put together. Well, we did have a man next door that drove a bread truck, but mostly—being a university town, they were mostly intellectuals. When I went to school, in Southern Illinois, I went to school with—with black children all the time and thought nothing of it.
Calvert
And when we came down here, the only people that really were see[sic] was controlled by the old landowner families, and socially, we were not accepted. We were Yankees and not accepted, and our first friends here in town were Jewish people and some of the blacks. They’re still friends of ours today.
Phyllis
In 1985, when Mayor Bettye Smith started the Martin Luther King[, Jr.] choir[2]…
Calvert
We both saw the Martin Luther King choir for 20-something years [inaudible], so we’re culturally adept.
Phyllis
But they weren’t used to that, and I had a birthday party for my daughter, who was six at the time. So I told her, “You can invite six children from your class to come to the birthday party.” and one was a little Stallworth girl—like Mill Stallworth’s daughter—a black girl, and a lovely, lovely person, and when they went outside to play a while, and somebody—a passerby or neighbor, but I won’t say who. It certainly wasn’t Connie Williams, because she is very culturally non-prejudice[sic] at all, and it wasn’t Rosita Jacobson, because she lived across the street and she was Jewish, so she wouldn’t have said anything, but somebody else said, “I wanted to tell you that we don’t mix socially with the blacks here.” and I said, “But we do.”
So that set us back a couple of steps, but then one of our Jewish friends, the Tetenbaums, got us into a barbecue club, which was out in what is now in Hidden Lake, and they introduced us to some people out there, and we got in, not because we were trying to get in, but anything to have people be a little more friendly[sic] to us.
Calvert
There’s quite a story about the marina in some respects, because the [Sanford] City Council didn’t have a tenant or anybody to rent or lease anything to when they started and decided to build that. That took a lot of guts.
Phyllis
On whose part?
Calvert
I’m the [Sanford] City Commissioner. The newspapers was urging them to—the Gilos, who were the publishers at that time—were urging them to and they had no tenant—nobody to lease or rent anything to, and here they were going to build an island, and during construction, they got a marina operator to do it, basically, with ash and oil.
Phyllis
But he designed the marina with floating docks so the water [inaudible].
Calvert
So I give the [Sanford] City Commission a lot of credit to have the nerve to do that and to proceed with the project, and it’s been a huge success, and I never did a job where we got as much construction for—it was the whole thing, including some of the buildings—only cost a million dollars—building it all up from nothing.
Phyllis
He designed that dry storage building—that big building that has the stripes on the side. At that time, some hotel came in and it’s changed hands a lot.
Calvert
It’s a motel now.
Phyllis
We lived on the lakefront at that time. We just rented a house, because we weren’t too sure if we were going to be able to stay or not. That’s when we first came, and after the marina thing, he got some jobs for being city engineer for places like Eustis.
Calvert
Well, I had those before I went up North—a whole bunch of the cities and counties around here.
Phyllis
[inaudible] and gave us a base to stay, and I would’ve thought too that it would’ve been very courageous for that lady black teacher—whoever she was—to walk into that Sanford Middle School or Seminole High [School]…
Thompson
Was she in it when it was Seminole High—as the first black teacher? Or was it…
Phyllis
I don’t know. William’s daughter was not a little, tiny girl, because knowing William...
Calvert
Other things that I thought were noteworthy is, for instance, the Central Florida Zoo [and Botanical Gardens].
Phyllis
When we came, it was downtown.
Calvert
One block right behind the [Sanford] City Hall. You could make quite a story about the moving of that and the...
Thompson
I’ve never heard that story—how it happened.
Calvert
Well, they had a zoo behind the City Hall, right down the lakefront there.
Thompson
I saw an aerial picture of it and thought it was much larger than it was. It’s very small.
Calvert
And the woman’s name was Hood—that was the curator there. He worked for the city and she did, and her whole job was to tend to the zoo, and they had one lion and you could hear him roar. You could hear him and then they decided—well, a bunch of businesspeople facilitated the Central Florida Zoological Society[, Inc.], and a number of us contributed money, so that we could relocate it. I put up several thousand dollars to the Sanford Atlantic Bank and so did others, and that served as seed money to borrow against to relocate and build the Central Florida Zoo. I had connections with contractors so I went to C. A. Meyer and Amick Construction[, Inc.] and leveraged them into building the roads in and doing all the earthwork for the original zoo. That was quite a contribution. It was all donation and the two of them—C. A. Meyer and Amick Construction—donated all the work to build the road and do the earth or the original zoo, and I was one of the founding directors of the Central Florida Zoo.
Phyllis
Both he and I had served on the zoo board at one time or another.
Thompson
Did you all have anything to do with the actual moving of the animals?
Calvert
No, my thing was contributing the money and doing the construction of the roads and all of the earthwork out there. There were many other people around town. Doug[las] Stenstrom did. Glenn McCall, the druggist, did. Dr. Hickman, the dentist from Maitland, was involved. I don’t really remember all the other people. That was the way that the zoo got started.
Thompson
What was the reasoning for moving the zoo? Did somebody donate the land?
Calvert
I think it was bought. It was bought. Right along there was Leffler land and a bunch of it was Kirchhoff. Now, have you ever talked to Bill Kirchhoff?
Thompson
No, I haven’t.
Calvert
Beside the stories of the marina and the zoo, the other one that I know a lot about is the historic trend or the beginning of the historic movement in Sanford.
Thompson
The historic trust?
Calvert
No, ot the trust. The whole idea of historic preservation becoming a forefront program in Sanford, and Sarah Jacobson was the one that started that whole thing, and she got me again, Doug Stenstrom, Don Knight, Glenn McCall—a bunch of downtown businesspeople—and we applied and got money to do historical surveys, and the state sent a[sic] historical architect and a plain historian and they worked out of my office. They’d go looking at all the insurance records, titles, and deeds, and all the interesting things they could find out about the buildings. That went on for a couple of years, because they’d come back and they’d found out the railroad magnate [Henry Morrison] Flagler had owned this and that—it was an old train station, and that’s the Piper Building, and they’d find all this interesting stuff about all of the other old buildings.
The first thing we did was we got the whole downtown district on the Federal Register of Historic Places.[3] It was first a downtown district—one of the few in the state for a whole downtown district, and we had to do all of these surveys and then we moved to the area behind it—the [Sanford] Historic Trust. We got that designated as a residential historic district. Now the people in the historic trust didn’t have anything to do with that. They formed the historic trust after all this was done, and I, in my many travels, kept thinking about park benches, and I picked out a bench from various places that I’d gone, and bought one for 900-and-something dollars, and had it brought here, and the city liked it, and it’s one of those—it’s downtown. They use that on the waterfront and everywhere. Then we got grants and formed a Downtown Historic Development [inaudible], and we got grants—the owners would apply, and we would sponsor them, and they got grants to fix up the facades of many of the buildings, and you’ll also see then when we have a historic board later. I was chairman of the [Sanford] Historic Preservation Board that the city conceived, and we got plaques that were put on all of the buildings that you see downtown. Then the historic trust came into being. They came later and formed their historic trust for remodeling the buildings and all of the homes. Then we had a few—Bettye Smith and I did a local one for the St. James AME [African Methodist Episcopal] black Church. They’ve got a local historic designation. That whole thing started with Sarah[?] Jacobson and a bunch of us, and that’s been very successful. Now the historic trust people kind of take the credit for the whole thing, but they didn’t start it. They did a good job.
Thompson
Well, I think they have done a good job, but the city—I don’t know if you noticed, but the City of Sanford and the Sanford Historic Trust did the first Cultural Preservation Award and gave that to the City of Sanford for what we’re doing today.
Phyllis
I started in 1973. My mother and two other little ladies and I started the Meals on Wheels program. I have a newspaper clipping showing a picture of us...
Calvert
We’ve done that longer than anybody in Seminole County—the two of us.
Phyllis
I’ve done it ever since then—36-37 years, and I think, because of that, I got the Jefferson Award [for Public Service] for this area, but there were others in other areas and Orlando and everything that got it too, and so, when it went statewide, of course, it wasn’t only that that got me the award.
Cal and I had done so many things around town—you know, volunteer things— ‘cause that’s really what we live for—is volunteering. He’s done about a 150 pro-bono engineering jobs for little churches, or the crisis center, or the Salvation Army sign out front and things like that. At one time, they gave him the Topper Award and, at the same time, they gave me the Dr. Luis Perez Humanitarian Award the same night, and I didn’t expect that. I knew he was to get the Topper Award, and so I didn’t say anything to him about it and then when we got there, I knew. I had some relatives coming, because I knew he was going to get that award. Then they started out with the humanitarian award first, and they got up and started talking about this woman—who was me, you know, and I thought, “That sounds like me.” And they were giving me this award and I said, “You’ve got this wrong. I’m not supposed to get this award.” and I didn’t want to say it and take all the—my husband, and they said, “Oh, but you are. This is the humanitarian award.” And I felt so disheartened, because I thought, “Gee whiz. I thought they were going to give him the Topper Award and here they’re just giving me an award,” and it turned out later in the evening that he got the Topper Award.
When we started this Meals on Wheels program—I don’t remember which church, but I think it might’ve been the First Presbyterian [Church of Sanford] downtown, which we were members of—and they decided they wanted to start a Meals on Wheels program and there were only four of us ladies. You could only take about eight people yourself, so there must’ve been 35 people, and we got the meals from the hospital, and they had them in these big, green plastic containers, and so we’d have to collect those from the clients—we call them “clients.” It was all-volunteer stuff. The next day and take those back—sometimes during, sometimes not, and then get the other meals. And, as the years went on, the mothers of these other ladies were 20 years older than I, so they’re all dead now, but I have a newspaper clipping of when I started, but 10 years after I started it, he started it, ‘cause he was retiring, but he’s done it 10 years less than I have.
Calvert I still do pro-bono engineering. I’ve done over 200 projects. There’s an awful lot. I’m still doing them.
Thompson
We‘ve known that you’d been doing those pro-bono when we had to have the engineers—pay an engineer to put up the risers for the theater.
Calvert
Well, I did the first one for what they now call the Wayne-Densch Theater.[4] I did the first structural study there that they used as a credit to the Federal Government to get their grants. Then I did structural inspections both on main theater and the building next door they later got.
Thompson
Well, how did you get into this wonderful, giving spirit?
Calvert
We both believe we were put here to help other people.
Phyllis
Our mission is just to help other people. We get the fun out of it, because it’s the one-on-one thing that’s important.
Calvert
It keeps us occupied. It’s something worthwhile to do.
Phyllis
We’ve been on lots of boards, but I say, “What you get on boards is a lot of splinters.” We’ve been in the Martin Luther King choir for 25 years. Bettye Smith started that. She was the one that got the Sanford Woman’s Club[5] integrated, and that didn’t go so well with many of the ladies that dropped out, when she brought in these lovely, fine four ladies. Because they were saying, “Well, you bring in one like that and who knows who they’ll bring in.” It’s the fear thing, and then Rosita Jacobson was in the club at the time, and they had a time getting Rosita in, because she was Jewish. They asked me to join for many years and I knew they were so segregated. I just didn’t want any part of that, but I used to say, “That’s the Sanford White Women’s Club.” but that changed over the years and these lovely black ladies are in and the Jewish ladies.
Calvert
I have another story to tell and it’s about the rescue mission.
Phyllis
The Rescue Outreach Mission [of Central Florida] on Thirteenth Street.
Calvert
They had kind of a ramshackle operation out there. Mother [Blanche Bell] Weaver was running it with the help of pop and it was really a rag-tag thing. She started out by being a cook and ran the restaurant on Thirteenth Street.
Thompson
And everybody went there.
Calvert
That’s right, and one day she walked into our office downtown and said, “I understand there’s a man here that likes to help people.” [laughs] And I ended up helping her. I donated land. I bought some lots and donated the engineering, and we built the women’s and children shelter, and I was, for 21 years, on the Board of Directors of the rescue mission. Mother Weaver founded that, and her church over there also founded it. That’s quite a story too, because she started out by having children just come—she kind of adopted them and they moved into her house with her. She was preaching at this church, and then she got the idea of founding a homeless shelter and started it, and then she called on me and then together saw about building the women’s and children’s shelter. Much of the money came from one man, and he should be talked to if he will talk to you, but he’s very, very generous.
Thompson
And who is that?
Calvert
Mike Good. Briar Construction.[6] Every organization that I go to and am part of, such as the Children’s Home Society [of Florida]—I’ve been on that board, and I look to see who the big givers are. Mike Good is at the top of the list.
Phyllis
Soon after we first came here, Thelma Mike was, until just recently, administrator at the Good Samaritan Home [of Sanford]. That’s just an assisted living center for people and they—somehow, the Good Samaritan Home hadn’t noticed they hadn’t paid their taxes for some time...
Calvert
They hadn’t paid their withholding and their unemployment and that stuff. They were in big trouble and the whole city got together and bailed her out.
Phyllis
They owed the government about $100,000. The whole city—respecting her so much—came forth and got people here and there to raise money, and they let her off.
Calvert
They raised considerable money.
Thompson
My first employee stole a lawnmower from the Good Samaritan Home. He started working for me after he got out of jail. He had to pay restitution to the Good Samaritan Home, and I told Thelma that story and she laughed and laughed. She said, “If he needed a lawnmower, I would have given him that lawnmower.”
Phyllis
We both started out in a choir when we first came here, because both of us had sung for years and years, and we have been singing in the First [Presbyterian] Church [of Sanford] downtown, and then about 1991 it had a split over a pastor and it...
Thompson
They moved over to Markham Woods Road.
Phyllis
No, that one’s a great one. That’s where most of these people downtown went. We went to another church for a year.
Calvert
We didn’t originally. We went to Oakland, followed our choir director.
Phyllis
We didn’t want to make an exodus—Markham Woods, because Markham Woods was started by Dr. [inaudible] and in 1985, they were—when did you join?
Thompson
That would’ve been years ago. We lived just a block down from the church.
Phyllis
We came there in 1991, and been in that choir for all those years too. We’re about at the place where we don’t do solos anymore.
Thompson
Well, what about your children growing up here, and do you have any family stories of the kids?
Phyllis
Well, our kids stayed out of trouble, so I guess we don’t have any stories. Our daughter is almost 48 now. She’s in California and she’s a veterinarian. We’re in the process of getting a home for her. She has MS [multiple sclerosis] and she’s partially disabled, but you wouldn’t know it by looking at her. She swims a lot, but she can’t work full-time now. She’s moving back here after 20 years to live with us. She’s single. We have a son in Orlando who works for the city at [Orlando] City Hall.
Calvert
It’s a funny thing about him. He played guitar for years and he had a rock band in high school and before, and he and Ricky Bowing—they used to—that room up there that’s now our music room was open—it was a breezeway, and they used to practice there and I remember getting out of the car way over at her mother’s house and I said, “Oh, there’s somebody playing ‘Proud Mary,’ just like Charles and his band did.” And all of a sudden I realized it was them. I decided right then that we had to enclose that breezeway and make a room out of it [laughs], and we’ve had all kinds of animals in our backyard. We’ve had horses there.
Phyllis
Well, the horse would only stay overnight one night, but she had [inaudible] brought it in—brought it right down 46. At that time there wasn’t that much traffic, and then she got ready to take it back out and it was starting to storm and I said, “You better not go now.” so she left the horse in the backyard.
Calvert
There was a pig back there for a while, when Robert [Conklin] had his heart surgery. She sent him a piglet from Tennessee and the pig grew up in the backyard and got huge in three months, and we had a judge there and the head of the code enforcement next door, and we had a pig in the backyard, but only for three months. Voley was sitting there on the couch talking to us one day and we were talking about Robert having to have a new valve. He needed to have heart surgery for a valve, and we were talking about the possibility of them using a pig valve, and right at the minute we said “pig,” the pig went, “Oi” right behind—and he turned around and looked, but he didn’t get it. He didn’t understand.
Phyllis
A pig valve only lasts about eight or nine years, because that’s all...
Calvert
They use them on older people. Now they use cowbells[?].
Phyllis
He had a metal valve at the age of 17. Now he’s the one that lives here in town and he works for NAPA Auto Parts, and he’s a manager of parts at OIA [Orlando International Airport], the big airport down there, for the ground vehicles, not the airplanes. He’s certified as an ASE [Automatic Service Excellence] mechanic, which he did for a few years, but the heart thing was too much for him.
Calvert
We always said, “We have one that can fix your car and one that can fix your cat.” [laughs].
Phyllis
So that’s the three kids, and the one in Orlando is project manager in the engineering department for the City of Orlando, and then the veterinarian daughter is going to move back here.
Calvert
The story there is he wanted to be a sound engineer and he had gone to Stetson [University]. Then he kind of went to music, and he went to Denver[, Colorado] to take recording engineering. Then he decided to go to—he got accepted to go to Berkeley College for Music[7] in Boston[, Massachusetts], and he went up there and he called me on the phone and said, “Dad, you won’t believe this, but they said I have to start over as a freshman. They won’t give me credits for the other stuff.” And I said, “Charles, go back inside and ask a different person the same question.” And he did and we just held the line open and he came back after a little while and he said, “Yes, they said I have to start over as a freshman. I want to come home.” and I said, “Okay. Come on. Under that circumstance.” Anyway, then he came back and he served as a soundman for a local band that played all over the United States that went by the name of Root Boy Slim. They were really quite good.
Phyllis
And [Root Boy Slim and] the Sex Change Band.
Calvert
Yeah. Well, they called it that. He traveled to New York City, [New York] and Baltimore and all those places as their soundman, and he got hit on the head with a beer bottle and it was a tough, tough life, because those people live on the thin edge of everything. After that, he called up and said, “Dad, I decided I want to go back to school and be an engineer like you.” [laughs] So he moved back.
Phyllis
And of course, they accepted all his LAS [Legal Assistant Studies] stuff at University of Florida. So he got a Master’s Degree and got really good grades. His sister got her veterinary medicine thing from there in 1991 too, but she wanted to go to California, because they were paying a little bit more at that time, but she didn’t realize how much more expensive everything was. Having been there, the climate is good for her, because it’s not as humid as here. After 20 years, and now that she’s partially disabled, she feels she ought to be a little nearer her aging parents, since we’re over 80 and we just think it’s time to—she said one time, “Well, I think within the next five years, I want to move back to Florida for sure.” I said, “Ruth Ann [Conklin], if you want us to help you move, in five years, we’re going to be about 87 years old.” She said, “I’d better move now, hadn’t I?” I said, “Yes, I think so.” You want to tell her the story about you, Gino [Pelucci], and the fundraising?
Calvert
Well, I—he doesn’t even remember who I am, and I worked with him and for him for years. Even before Heathrow—way back—I did a bunch of factories for them up in other states and my cousin, Bob B.B., was the general manager for Chung[?] King, when he decided that he shouldn’t be running it anymore, and he hired my cousin, who was a board member of Campbell Soups,[8] and he was high help in things. He ran Chung[?] King, because Gino was very volatile. He would run around handing out 100 dollar bills or swearing loudly at people and stuff, and he wasn’t what you would call a “consistent” manager. My cousin used to tell me that Gino had hundreds of ideas that would come into his mind all the time, and he would write my cousin notes about, “This is an idea.” and at the end of the day he’d send another note: “Forget all those ideas.”
Phyllis
When Gino was featured at one of these Boy Scout[s of America] dinners, and he was a speaker—and this was maybe three years ago or something—Cal said he needed to go over and say hello to Gino. He went over to say something to Gino and Gino acted like he didn’t even know who he was, and then he said...
Calvert
And Brenda [inaudible] was sitting there and she said, “Gino, this is Cal Conklin. He was your engineer for Heathrow. He did all the engineering in Heathrow for you.” And Gino looked up at me and still no recognition. I said, “How about—you remember Bob B.B.?” And he just lit up, because he remembered that. I don’t think he remembered me, but he remembered the guy who had run Chung[?] King for him.
Two stories about him that I think are kind of funny: I would attend many of his board meetings at his request. Most of them there was an accountant and a lawyer and so forth, and there were all kind of “yes-men” with him. We were having a meeting, and a young man came to make a presentation, and it wasn’t long, and I knew he wouldn’t be interested, but he said, “Young man, does foul language offend you?” And the young man said, “No.” He said, “Why you dumb son of a bitch.” He just lit into him and cussed him out up and down and back and forth. Every foul word you could think of.
When the Presbyterian Church downtown was having a building program—when they put the Fellowship Hall and they redid the sanctuary—I was the special gifts chairman. General Hutchinson was the overall chairman, and one of the people I had to call on, besides Warren Patrick and a bunch of other, was Gino Pelucci, and the only reason we did was his daughter would come to Sunday school once in a while, and the preacher was with me,[9] and I walked in and Gino said, “Hey. I’m glad to see you.” We shook hands and he said, “You’ve got a rendering of what you’re going to do. That’s good.” And he got down on his hands and knees and began pointing to the rendering and telling me all of the things I should say to anyone I was presenting to. He was going to teach me how to make a presentation. “You should point out all the good features that you’re going to be in this program.” And then I got down on my hands and knees right there alongside him, and the preacher’s standing there and they’re just incredulous. You can just imagine the scene. When we got ready to finish up he said, “And now the most important thing, Cal. You must remember that when you call on people—you’ve got to ask for enough. Remember.” And he didn’t seem to realize that I was going to do it to him. I stood up and tried to recall all of the things he had said, and I went through it as well as I could, and I asked him for $40,000, and his jaw dropped about a foot, and he said, “Cal, you asked for enough.” When we bought this house, his pilot was also trying to buy it. Gino didn’t really want him this close. He used to stop and talk to me all the time.
Phyllis
Within the last year, when they go by—they aren’t usually driving—they have a driver or something. They often wave while[?] we’re out in the yard.
Calvert
He used to stop and talk, but now he’s lost his recollection of what my part and background was.
Phyllis
He had Hubert Humphrey come to his home, when Hubert was running for vice president.
Calvert
Even when he was vice president, he was down here.
Phyllis
They’d come from the airport and go by here, and our son had one of those etch-a-sketch things, where you put the little dots—and he hung it in the window.
Calvert
Little Gina [Pelucci] came here to play with Ruth Ann.
Phyllis
Gina Pelucci came over here to play with Ruth Ann, and brought her pet mouse—a little black and white thing. Of course, our daughter loved animals, and we did too, and it didn’t frighten me or anything, but when she got ready to go home, she couldn’t find the mouse, and we never did find that mouse. I’m sure it’s hiding around here somewhere. [laughs].
Calvert
Well, one thing that is funny is that everywhere I go people tell me I look like Jimmy Carter. Well there’s a picture of Jimmy Carter right up there, and when we went to Panama, we were going through customs, and as I approached the customs thing. The guy hollered out, “¡Jimmy Carter ahí!” All these people came running around, and I thought, “I’m just going to go along with it.” A woman wanted to have her picture taken with me, so I put my around her, smiled, and took a picture with her.
Phyllis
‘Cause he didn’t know any Spanish, he couldn’t say, “No, I’m not Jimmy Carter.” It would sound like—it happened at the resort...
Calvert
It happened six times on one trip. I got invited into the bar for a drink and all sorts. He’s a big hero, ‘cause he’s the one who turned the [Panama] Canal over to them.
Phyllis
He thought if he said no when they wanted their picture taken, and he didn’t speak English, it would sound like, “I’m Mr. Big and you’re paparazzi. Get away from me.” So he’d just smile and let them take his picture.
Calvert
One lady—I never did understand that. Well, I’d go shopping in Wal-Mart, and very often somebody will tap me on the shoulder and say, “Here, I’m going to go home and tell my folks that I went shopping with Jimmy Carter.” The City of Sanford does a great deal. The county does not. The county feels they have to go to Orlando to get the big engineering firms, and it’s very strange, and of course there’s competition between cities and the counties, and there always has been. We started out doing both, but in your local area, you usually end up doing one or the other and we’ve ended up doing all the cities essentially.
Phyllis
We bought it out. Us[sic] and the porters and the homes bought it out and...
Calvert
We bought it from CRS and a national firm. Clark Deets[sp] was sold to Richardson and then to CRS—Rawlins and then CRS.
Thompson
So there were several owners before you?
Calvert
Clark Deets was the original one I went to work for in Urbana, and my professors were the ones that started it. They resigned from the college and hired their better students, and there were three of them. A structural man, a civil man, and an environmental or sanitary man, and I was actually one of the very first ones they hired, and we made a big business out of that and got into the 200 range in the country, and then I came down here and saw it and thought it’d be good to make a branch, and then the company got sold and ended up with CRS [inaudible]. They did the big arenas. The big one in Gainesville, and they were mainly doing things in the Middle East in the [United] Arab Emirates. All of that fancy stuff there, and they had no idea what our business was here. I mean, it was all local. They just didn’t understand. It wasn’t the kind of business that they did, and when we decided to go into business for ourselves, I said, “We may be able to get this for a song.” And the other two just wanted to leave and I said, “No. Let me have a try at it.” So I went down there, and we paid $35,000, and we got all of the new business, and they even paid us 5 percent of the collections for three years, and so they ended up—we were roughly 10 percent of their organization and they ended up paying us to take it away from them.
Phyllis
And this was 1981, when it first became Conklin Corps.
Calvert
And the other two worked for me.
Thompson
And I opened up the Rib Ranch in 1981 and I retired in 2008. My husband was ill and he died last year. I was lucky to be with him at that time.
[1] George Calvert.
[2] Correction: Martin Luther King, Jr. Celebration Chorus.
[3] Correction: National Register of Historic Places.
[4] Correction: Wayne-Densch Performing Arts Center.
[5] Correction: Woman’s Club of Sanford.
[6] Correction: The Briar Team.
[7] Correction: Berkeley College of Music.
[8] Correction: Campbell Soup Company.
[9] Virgil Bryan.
Originally created by Andrew Glen Weeks and Doris McClendon, and published by the University of Central Florida Libraries Special Collections and University Archives.
Weeks
Alright. Today is April 11th, 2014. I am interviewing Doris [“Dee”] McClendon who served in the U. S. Navy. We are interviewing Mrs. McClendon as part of the UCF [University of Central Florida] Community Veterans’ History Project and as research for the creation of the Lone Sailor Memorial Project. We are recording this interview at UCF. Will you please start off by telling us where you were born?
McClendon
I was born in Miami, Florida, Andrew.
Weeks
And what year was that?
McClendon
I was born in 1958.
Weeks
What did your parents do for a living?
McClendon
My dad was a laborer and my mom didn’t work so she was kind of like a stay at home mom. She did kind of odd and in things. Clean houses or you know [inaudible]. It was kind of like a—I guess you would say like a cleaning lady type of thing—but yeah. As far as a full-time job, no, she didn’t work. She stayed at home.
Weeks
Do you have any siblings?
McClendon
Yes. three brothers and three sisters. I am the second oldest of seven children. There are six of us now. I have a sister that passed away in 2009.
Weeks
And where did you go to school?
McClendon
I went to school. Elementary school—Pine Villa Elementary School. I went to Mays Junior High School and South Dade Senior High School. All in Miami, Florida.
Weeks
Did you do anything in between school and joining the Navy?
McClendon
Just a summer job I worked. Obviously I was a full-time student and then for the summer, I would do odds and in things. Summer jobs, [inaudible] type of things, but my first real job was of course the military.
Weeks
And when was that?
McClendon
In [19]76.
Weeks
‘76. Why did you choose the Navy specifically?
McClendon
I chose the Navy, because—and I’ll tell you the story of how I actually joined the military and I’ll never forget it. We were—I was at a high school pep rally. We actually had a Navy recruiter come to the pep rally and of course a recruiter’s job is to recruit. So he came and we were all sitting there and kind of just talking—all the kids and stuff—and he actually just walked across the stage to the podium and there was something about him that really struck me. I liked the way he presented himself. I loved the uniform. The ribbons stood out and he was selling and I bought it. I was really impressed. Of course, obviously—and I guess by the same token, it could have been the [United States] Army. But there was something about him and at that point I made the decision then to join the military. Of course, my parents supported that and that’s really how I got there.
Weeks
Do you have any other family members in the service?
McClendon
Yes. My brother, Michael. United States Army. My son actually is [in the] United States Army and my daughter is [in the] United States Air Force, and of course my husband United States Navy.
Weeks
All around. So, I take it your family was pretty supportive.
McClendon
Absolutely. Absolutely, they were. And actually, my plan was, after I graduated high school—South Dade Senior High—my plan was to go to the University of Miami. That’s where I was actually slated to go, but that recruiter really changed my mind. I remember after his spiel, I went up to talk to him and said, “You know what? If I didn’t have plans to go to college, I would join the Navy.” And he says[sic], “Well, you have the best of both worlds. You can still do the military and still get your college degree.” And I said, “Wow. The best of both worlds.” And he said, “How would you like to go to college in Hawaii or wherever the military may send you?”
And I tell you what, it really came full circle. My very first assignment after basic training was Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. I know. Everything just fell in place. It was meant to be. Best decision. Best decision I ever made. I ever made. So—and of course, I was still able to go to school. I worked. And of course, when military didn’t call, when I didn’t have duties or assignments there, I would go to school at night. I did have the best of both worlds.
Weeks
Where did you attend basic training?
McClendon
Basic training was right here at Recruit Training Command in Orlando, Florida.
Weeks
And what were you trained to do for your career in the Navy?
McClendon
I made it known in the beginning, because I was always was fascinated with law. I grew up watching Perry Mason. So I grew up in shows about law and order and jag. All this stuff really fascinated me. So my plan was to go to college, get a college degree, and go to law school. So that was my plan. But since my plan was changed, I went into the military. Of course, I went in without a college degree so I started as an E[nlisted Rank]-1, but I made it known—my very first assignment—I made it known that that’s what I wanted to do after basic training and then what I did was—when I enlisted—I enlisted with guaranteed school. So I just made it known early on that that’s what I wanted.
It was actually after basic training—of course I went to administrative school, because you have to start there—but from there, I went to my very first assignment. Made it known that I wanted to be a paralegal or the military—they’re called legalmen. I was sent to school there. After school, that’s the career I followed and to this day, I am still doing the same thing, although retired from the military. I’m at the courthouse and I’m doing the exact same thing. Working on the second retirement so to speak.
Weeks
Did you have any experiences here in Orlando before you came for training?
McClendon
No. Did I have any experiences in Orlando before I came? No. But you know what? Growing up in my household, obviously chores was[sic] not unique to me. Getting up in the morning and making my bed— that was a requirement in my household. Washing dishes, mopping the floor, all of that, none of that.
And of course, coming from Florida, the weather didn’t bother me, because—I know to some of the recruits, especially coming from cold climates, to come to Florida in the heat, none of that bothered me. I didn’t have any problems with recruit training. Didn’t have any problems taking orders or any of that. And that was instilled just as a child.
My parents, you know—they were parents. We were just taught early on to do what you’re told. Be respectful. You don’t work, you don’t eat. Obviously those types of things. Again, chores were not foreign to me. So in the military, first thing you did when you get up, you get that bunk made up and those corners better be tight. Obviously, they had to teach me how to make the corners tight. But making up my bed, I was used to doing that. To this day, I get up out of the bed, first thing I do. I made it up. It’s just instilled in me. Wonderful experience, the military was.
Weeks
Tell me about your first impression arriving at training.
McClendon
My first impression of course—it was very scary. It was very scary, because here I am— I’m not under my parents’ roof. I’m under Uncle Sam’s roof. And I get off the bus, and oh my gosh—company commanders. They were just that. Company Commanders.
So it was a scary situation, because I arrived here, it was late, late, late in the evening and I guess just the fear of the unknown. I was scared. I was scared. But at the end of the day when it all washed up, it was all for nothing. It was all for nothing. Then, of course, lonely. Here I am, I left my mom and dad back in Miami, all my sisters and brothers. Now I’m on this bus. I just got on this bus and there’s[sic] 80 women. We’re all scared. You could tell we’re all scared. Some of them crying, some of them not. But it really worked out. It worked out. Yeah.
Weeks
What were your primary responsibilities?
McClendon
At basic training?
Weeks
Yeah.
McClendon
Do whatever they say do. That was my primary responsibility. And of course, obviously it was very structured. We had PT—physical fitness. We had studies. So we had training time physically and we had training time mentally. So we were taught what the standing orders were. We were taught the chain of command structure. So we were taught all of that and that’s the purpose of it to prepare you for the fleet. To prepare you to walk outside the gate and be prepared to defend your country, but all along, obviously it’s a learning process.
You don’t learn everything in basic training. You don’t learn everything. So because basic training was six and a half to eight weeks. There is no way you’re going to learn about any military in six to eight weeks, but it was all a learning process. It’s just like with your job. You’re not going to start a job, and in six weeks, know everything there is to know. I guess some people may do that, but I didn’t pick up that quick. But it was a learning process but you’re equipped with the basics for sure.
Weeks
What was your impression of other recruits?
McClendon
You know what, Andrew? At first, I would look at them and my heart would go out to a lot of them, but we were all in the same boat. We were all scared. We all didn’t know what was going to happen. Of course, my recruiter prepared me. My recruiter didn’t tell me that, “Okay, Dee. When you get off the bus, there will be a red carpet there and they’re going to walk you down the carpet. They’re gonna lead you to the…” So my recruiter didn’t tell me that. I was prepared to be broken down individually and be raised up with the team, with the unit.
So when I got off that bus, it was all about Dee, but when I left, I wasn’t that way. It was about that person in that bunk next to me who would probably have to defend my back one day. So it was all about that. So I realized the purpose was to break you down individually so it’s not about self. A lot of soldiers and sailors are depending on you to know your job and they’re depending on you. You know, as far as support goes. So I did take a look at a lot of the recruits and we were all scared but, by the end of that basic training, who would have known? Who would have known? Yeah and a lot of those—we’re best friends today. A lot of those contacts, I still have them in my address book and we’re very good friends to this day. We just kept in contact.
Weeks
Wow. Was there any kind of social life on base then?
McClendon
Yes. There was. Now, in basic training, there was no social life. You didn’t have any time for anything. So, no. No social life in basic training, because it was all about preparation, preparation, preparation. You lived for mail call—to get a letter from home. You lived for that. But no there was no social life whatsoever. That didn’t begin.
Actually for me, there was no social life actually as I got more acclimated and knowing my duties. Of course, every duty station was a different assignment. It was a different location, different people, different bosses, different staff, but eventually, as you get more comfortable—I started to get more comfortable as years progressed, of course. After basic training, my very first duty station as an E-1. I made number one and I’m looking at my boss who has all these stripes on his arm. I’m scared half to death. I’m scared half to death. But all of that was for nothing. Met the best people and the support that you get is just—I can’t even begin to explain it.
But yeah. social life didn’t begin until after I had had some years under my belt, because I spent all my time studying, because my goal was—and I knew in basic training that I was going to retire. I just knew it and my goal was, Dee, while you’re here, we should make this work for you. You wanted to go to school. You’re gonna go to school. And I was able to do everything. All my goals. I was able to do everything that I had on my list. I knew I was gonna retire day one. I was scared to death, but I knew. I woke up that next morning and said, you know what, I’ll be here for 20 years. I will.
Weeks
Wow.
McClendon
Mmhmm. I was just that comfortable with that. I’ve never regretted the decision. I’ve never woken up and said, Oh my gosh. Why did I do this?
And there have been times where, you know, I’ve had to leave my kids and when what I was saying—I was just so fortunate that—I mean, I eventually married the love of my life who’s also in the military. And back then, we were just fortunate enough that we were never ever away at the same time. So it was always one of us home. Either he was TAD—temporary additional duty—or I was. It just worked out that we were never gone at the same time. I know it’s not like that anymore, but it was when I was there. We were just blessed and fortunate that there was always one of us there, because eventually—my kids who are now in the military.
Weeks
When did you meet your husband?
McClendon
I met my husband in ‘78. And I met my husband at the very first duty station, Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. I was in Hawaii. Met him in Hawaii and it’s what? Thirty something years later?
Weeks
Did you know?
McClendon
No. No. [laughs] No. No. No, I didn’t know that. I was saying—no. I didn’t know that. But anyway—but yeah I met him and we’ve been together ever since. That I didn’t know. But, yeah everything was further down. I’ve been truly blessed.
Weeks
Tell me what your instructors were like during basic training.
McClendon
We had, of course—I had female instructors, but we trained together. We trained—I was in an integrated company so males and females—we trained together. Although their job was to be rough and tough, which they fulfilled. And I think they went a little overboard, which they fulfilled, but of course their job wasn’t for me to like them. wasn’t for any of us to like them. Their job was to give us orders and for us to make sure that we carry them around and they are the ones that prepared me. That’s the only contact that you have—your company commander.
So a lot of responsibilities are placed on that person and their job is to prepare you for the fleet. Obviously, when we screwed up—you betcha. But when once a person screwed up, “Oh, it wasn’t Dee.” It wasn’t one person screwin’ up. It was the entire company. If one failed, you all failed. So, no. It’s not one person, it’s the company. So it behooved you to get it right or, if you messed it up the first time, trust me, you won’t make that same mistake again. You won’t make that same mistake again. It was never one person and my company commanders.
And of course, at the time I would say no. I didn’t like them. Didn’t care for them. Of course, obviously, orders were barked at you. That didn’t bother me, because I told you, my household—my parents didn’t, as they say, play the radio. But I realized early on what the big plan was. I realized early on what the goal was. what their job was. I never took any of it personally, because you could—oh my gosh—because again, and I say I think the purpose was to tear you down individually so you’re not thinking about yourself and you’ll get back up as a unit. There were 80 females in my unit. Can you imagine what we all thought of ourselves? On my gosh. Can you imagine that would have been? Mmm mmm. Before it was over, I thought of my shipmates. I put them first even before me. I’ll tell you what. We got there, we would eye each other and kind of size each other up. On day one, you’re talking about some crying. When that was over, when basic training was over and we each parted our ways, some of us met again in another place. Some of them, I’ve never seen since, but I always remembered them
Weeks
What was a basic day like?
McClendon
A basic day was like—obviously we would have—we would get up early in the morning., and when I say early, I’m talkin’ four o’clock. It would be like four o’clock in the morning to get up, because obviously we have to be prepared and be standing at attention in line ready for inspection when our company commanders got there. So you figure that’s a company of 80 girls. So we all got in, got showered, got to change. When they say “military showered” —got to change. When they say “military showers”—two-three minutes. Because there’s[sic] 80 girls that got to get in and get ready. And then get ready, stand in line. If we know the company commander’s gonna be there at eight o’clock , you best be there standing in that line in front of your bunk ready for personal inspection. Ready for your bunk inspection and that was first thing in the morning.
Obviously everyday consisted of PT [physical fitness] on the grinder, which they called “the field. “Every morning consisted of calisthenics PT. After PT, there would be breakfast and it just depends on which week we were in, because—believe it or not—there was week one. There was a schedule. Week one, week two, three, four. Of course, obviously, early on, we would see company commanders on the weekend, but as you got more—as the weeks went by, you would start to see them less and less, because then at that point, we didn’t need them as much as we did in the beginning.
But of course, weekends—normally Saturdays—we would have to ourselves. Later on, not in the beginning—Sundays—it was up to you. There was[sic] church services. You could pick what church service you want to go to. Go to church services. I think everybody went to church. Everybody would be there. We’d would be huggin’ and cryin’ and—“Lord, when is this gonna be over? When is this gonna be over?” And then, what I loved about it is the company that sat in front, that was your last week. So your goal was to make it to the very front of that church, because you know that that’s the company that’s gonna be graduating that weekend. So that was your last week.
And so there was a schedule and company commanders set a schedule—week one through week eight. But it was definitely calisthenics every day. Definitely there were studies every day. Then of course, we did have time for ourselves. Not a lot. Not a lot in the beginning, but like I said, you live to get that letter from home. We had time to write letters and then normally that would be on your downtime. And again, in the beginning, there wasn’t a lot of downtime, because the object is to get that mind trained while it’s fresh. But toward the end, there was a lot of downtime.
As you got closer to graduating, you would have a weekend where you could do whatever you want. I remember going to [Walt] Disney [World] and all of that. I wish I had been to Disney before, because I was born and raised in Florida—in Miami. So I had gone to Universal [Studios Orlando]. I had gone to Disney. And actually, we did that on our senior trip—on our senior trip in high school. By the time you get to week five, you’re—oh, like it’s pretty much downhill now. Oh, I got this. I got this. Yeah. You know how you’re doing academically and obviously you have to pass tests.
And even today, there’s physical fitness tests. You gotta be—I’m not sure what the standards are now. It’s your different age group. Obviously a 19-year-old should be able to run a mile in less time than a 40-year-old so depending on your age, the standards were different, but there is a physical fitness standard in the military. All branches. You gotta be physically fit. I mean, you know, you can’t be tryin’ to get up a hill carrying whatever you need to carry and be all out of breath. That’s not gonna work. So, that’s not gonna work. Even today, you gotta look sharp in that uniform.
Weeks
Was it difficult for you at all?
McClendon
No.
Weeks
No?
McClendon
Not at all. No. I had no problem with the physical fitness portion. Now, I will admit I wasn’t used to getting up at three-four o’clock in the morning going out there doing—on the grinder doing military sit-ups and mountain climbers and all of that. So I wasn’t used to doing that, but you conform. But no, it wasn’t a problem. No. It wasn’t a problem, because I was very—even in high school—I was very athletic and so that didn’t bother me. None of that did.
Weeks
You mention that you lived for the letters—letter day.
McClendon
Oh, letter day. yes.
Weeks
Who would you write letters to and who would you get letters from?
McClendon
I’d get letters of course from my parents, my sisters and brothers. “Oh, I miss you guys. I miss you.” And I’m like, “Well, you weren’t telling me that when I was there.” Then of course, I was the oldest girl. My siblings looked up to me. I had one brother older than I am, but I think there is something special about being the oldest daughter. Of course, when I left—and I say even my baby brother—I just think, Oh my gosh. I think he thought I was his mom for a little while, because he’s a lot younger than I am. But it was like, “Oh my gosh. Our sister is gone.” That was the first time that family was detached.
So I was the first one to leave home. And I’ll tell you what, when that recruiter came to pick me up to take me to the train station, and—from my parents’ house to the end of the walkway to the car was his car—the recruiting car—that was the longest step. Oh my gosh. I thought I would never—and maybe I was just walking real slow[sic]. I don’t know what it was. I said that was the longest driveway. I just looked at the car like I was gonna never get there. And obviously I know it was all mentally now. Just the fear of—was all ready to go, ready to go, ready to go. But when the day actually came—because I looked back, my mom was crying. I said I can’t look back, because if she’s crying, she’s gonna start me. Because obviously, I was going to miss my family. That’s with anything. That’s with anything. Even if I had gone off to college, I would have still had the same feeling, because I’m gonna miss them. I’m gonna miss them. I didn’t tell my siblings that often, but yeah. I was gonna miss them.
But yeah. We lived for letter day. We had time to write letters so I would just catch up, see how things were going, and we would just do it through letters. There were opportunities that we would do phone calls and when I went in—I mean, I was able to call my parents. I don’t know whether it’s like that anymore, but I was able to call just to let them know—do what we call a “well visit” or a “well phone call” or whatever they call it today, just to let your loved ones know that you made it safely and you’re here. And to tell them that, “Okay. now just so you know, don’t be expecting letters every day. Don’t be expecting phone calls, because we’re here now and I just wanted to let you know that we are safe and we made it safely. Now, the fun begins.” So yeah.
McClendon
But anyways—and I am hopeful they still do that, but I don’t know. Well, yeah. Because I know my son called me. My son—my older son grew up and went into the Army. It was a couple days later, but he did call me to let me know that he was there. So I understood all of that, because I lived it. Because I know one of the questions—a friend of mine—“Oh my gosh. Your children are going into the military. How can you stand it? Oh my gosh. You’re gonna let him go?” And I say, “Well, it’s going to be his decision just like it was mine. My parents supported me and I’m going to support him.” I mean I lived it so I know.
When my daughter, who is stationed in San Antonio, Texas—United States Air Force—when she calls, I can relate. You know, my son, who is in the Army stationed in Germany—I can relate. Me and my husband—we can relate, because we’ve lived it. I supported their decision. Didn’t realize they were going in the military though. Being raised in the military though. Being raised in the military, I thought, Oh my gosh. That’s they last thing that they would do. But they went in. Out of three children, two of them went into the military.
Weeks
You mentioned the grinder earlier. Tell me about the grinder.
McClendon
Alright. the grinder is just a field. Imagine—all it is—that’s what they call it in the military. The grinder is just a—it’s similar to—just imagine a basketball court with no goals. All it is just a slate of concrete. It’s all mapped out, because a lot of the time you’re doing different exercises on there but the grinder—you do your calisthenics on there. As you start getting closer to graduation, you do your formations on there. You have to practice different formations. It’s really big. Each company—you could have—oh my gosh—quite a few companies out there practicing formations and the formations they issue, you gotta be able to line up properly. There’s a flag bearer in the front with the flag and you got to be able to position that right, carry that right, you got to be able to line up and there was a whole bunch of different things we used to and that’s all that is. It’s just a big field with no grass. All I guess concrete. In the military, they called it a “grinder”. So what that came from, what that name comes from, I don’t know. I’m sure there’s a reason.
Weeks
So what did it feel like to finally graduate?
McClendon
Mixed feelings. Believe it or not, I cried. I really did. I cried. Because I knew there was going to be some relationships that would probably—some of my friends that I would probably never see again. I was definitely ecstatic. Definitely happy that it was over. Then—Oh my gosh. I did it. Oh, I did it. I did it. I did it. Then, at the same time, I was sad, because, believe it or not, those company commanders who got on my last nerve—I was gonna miss them, because that was it. That was your family. You’d be surprised how closely you could bond. So our company commanders, boy, were we gonna miss them. I think everybody cried. Even our company commanders. Those two harsh, tough company commanders—you just saw a different side of them. You saw a different side of them. So yeah. it was happiness and sadness. When they put the orders in your hand for that next assignment, and you’re like, I’m never gonna see them again. We’re never gonna wake up together again. we’re never gonna sit there. Because, believe it or not, I had 80 sisters. And although that sounds—oh my gosh—80 sisters? How’d I even deal with three? Now I’ve got 80. So it was like leaving 80 of my family members.
Weeks
Tell me about your first assignment.
McClendon
My very first assignment—after basic training, I went to school. And my very first assignment was Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. I think I told you that. That was my very first assignment. I worked in a legal office. I was at Fleet Training Group in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. So what I used to do is—I had to take a little small boat— that’s what they called it—similar to like a little dinky, I guess—little small boat. And every morning, because I worked on an island, a little boat would take me to [inaudible] island. And every morning I would pass the [U.S.S.] Arizona Memorial. We would pass it every morning and I would look down and it seemed like I could see the bubbles. You could still see down there. I took that little boat to work every morning and I was there for three years I think.
Weeks
What did you do?
McClendon
I worked in the administrative field and they put me in a law office, because I made it known in the beginning that that’s what I wanted to do. Remember the female Perry Mason part? Yeah. So I made it known early on that’s what I wanted to do. but being a legalman or a paralegal, you had to be an E-5 in order to be able to convert to that rank. But one of the requirements before you could do this—you had to have an administrative background.
So after basic training I actually went to school in Meridian, Mississippi—Yeoman A School. And from there, I went to my very first assignment, Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. And I made it known then that that’s what I wanted to be. You know what? Every assignment that I had was always in a law office. I mean, you hear stories—you got to do your duties and work in the galley, peel potatoes, and swab the decks—and I guess I was put in a position where I was always needed—the services were always needed. They were always shorthanded so even as an E-1, I was in a legal office. So I never got a chance to enjoy that—the swabbing the deck and peeling the potatoes and the galley and all the other stuff you hear. I never did any of that but it all worked out just the same. Always in a law office, every duty station, every assignment.
Weeks
Where did you go from Hawaii?
McClendon
From Pearl Harbor, Hawaii—I’m trying to think here. I left Hawaii and I went to Jacksonville. I went to AIMD—Aircraft Intermediate Makers Department—in Jacksonville, Florida. There I worked in an administrative office, as well. I worked in the admin office there as well. Of course, it was an aircraft intermediate maintenance department, so I worked in an admin office where there was nothing but hangars with planes. That’s what they did—kind of just fix the planes. My job was, of course, obviously to process paperwork, make sure the records are processed, those types of things.
From Jacksonville, Florida, I went to—because like I said, you had to be in an administrative field, you had to be an E-5. So as soon as I made E-5, I went to legalman school or paralegal school. and, from that point on, my rate changed, because I was an administrative yeoman and my rate changed to legalmen. All along, even as a yeoman, I was always in an office. So I went to Legalmen A School in Newport, Rhode Island. I left there gone to my first assignment as a paralegal.
Weeks
How long were you there?
McClendon
My school in Newport, Rhode Island?
Weeks
Mmhmm.
McClendon
My school was four or five months. Four or five intense months. One thing too, —it’s like any other specialty or any other job, even in the military, you’re constantly training, because the law changes all the time and a lot of your opinion on what you’re doing, even as a civilian—a lot of times you’re required to, even as a civilian, you are—a lot of times you’re required to maintain your certification so you’re required to—as things change, you go to different schools to learn what the new changes are. That’s the same in the military no matter what your job is. Every time there’s a change, there’s[sic] different schools you go to, to learn the new equipment or learn the new structure or what.
So after [inaudible] school in Newport, Rhode Island—then, I left Newport, Rhode Island and I went to my very first assignment as a paralegal. I think that was in Norfolk, Virginia. So from then on—that was all in Norfolk, Virginia. Of course, I worked for the Navy Marine Corps Trial Judiciary. It was myself and another senior chief. We were staffed for at that time eight JAGs [Judge Advocate Generals]—eight judges—military judges. Our job was to do their scheduling. Get their scheduling done, set hearings. Whatever it was that day. And that’s what we did. Hearings, hearings, courts, trials. It was actually trials. At that time, I was there, there were eight jags.
Weeks
Did you enjoy that?
McClendon
Oh, yes. I did. I did. I did. I’ve always been fortunate enough to be around good people. In the military and outside the military, and even now, I work for a good group of people.
Weeks
When you think about your experiences, what would you say, if you could, your fondest memory of your time in the Navy?
McClendon
My fondest memory of my time in the Navy—of course, obviously graduation. Graduation from boot camp is one of them. Actually, you know what? I really can’t pinpoint any one thing. I loved all my assignments. I enjoyed it. I made every assignment work. Obviously, I been[sic]—early on, you go where the needs of the military are. You don’t have a choice of where you go, so you go where they send you and I look at it this way: Had it not been for the military, I probably never would have saw[sic] Hawaii. Absolutely. I probably wouldn’t have saw[sic] it. All the places that I’ve traveled—had it not been for the military, I probably never would have had the opportunity to see that. So I loved all the travels. I enjoyed all the people that I met. My assignments—I loved that. I would think that to come full circle, graduating from basic training and then retiring. All the stuff in between was just gravy, I think. I think that was my—the very first fond memory definitely was graduating basic training. Dee, you made it. You made it.
Weeks
I want to ask you about the Naval Training Center [Orlando] a little bit. Were there ever business that would come there—family members, outsiders?
McClendon
At the Naval Training Center?
Weeks
Yes.
McClendon
I’m sure there was. Now, I was here in Orlando at the Naval Training Center, but I worked at recruit training command. The base was broken up into two sections. On one side of the base was recruit training command where the recruits trained. Then the other side was the actual training center, which obviously, you didn’t have recruits on that side. I’m sure there was[sic] over where I was and I was on the recruit training side. The only time visitors were there was when you were close to graduating and you could have your family members—you know, you’re getting ready to pass—review for your graduation. You could have visitors. I remember when I was in, I never saw any visitors. Half the time I was scared to death anyway. On the recruit training side, no. There was[sic] no family member visitors if that’s what you’re saying, but once you’re graduated—and that’s the thing—two totally separate things: basic training is one thing.
But once you graduate, to me, it was a regular job. Obviously there were restrictions and there were extra things. In other words, I was required to stay on duty. I was required—if they needed me to go on assignment, I was there. Other than that, when I wasn’t working, that was my free time. So it’s that the military had hostage over me. It wasn’t anything like that. It was a regular assignment. Whatever my work schedule was, I would do my work schedule. When I’m off work, I’m off work. Obviously though, you’re in the military 24 hours a day. And you should carry yourself that way, because when you’re out there, people don’t say, “Oh, look at Dee.” They say, “Oh my gosh. She’s in the Navy? She’s out there doing that.” So, they don’t see that. They don’t see you. They see the military. “That’s how they act in the military?” So you’re always in the military, 24 hours a day while you’re in it and you’re representing your country the entire time that you’re in, but your free time is your free time. It was just like a regular job to me.
Weeks
So did you travel off base a lot?
McClendon
Yes I did. I traveled off base a lot. For my first years, I lived on base. The weekends was[sic] mine. Pearl Harbor, Hawaii—that was my very first assignment. When I wasn’t working, I was out at the beach at [inaudible] and all those other ones. And I would see things, go to the beach. Oh, yeah. I used that opportunity to see things, because I probably would have never saw it but you know what, you never know. But I couldn’t imagine I’d be going to Hawaii had it not been for the military. Only because that probably been the furthest thing—that wouldn’t have been on my bucket list. Let me put it that way. Probably wouldn’t have been on my bucket list, so I probably wouldn’t have made it there. But yes. My free time—I would do traveling.
Then, we were in Iceland and my free time—of course, we had a few Icelandic friends who would take us to see Blue Lagoon and here it is. it’s freezing. Snow is on the ground, but you’re in the water and it’s just this warm and the vapors are coming up. Different things—I wouldn’t have had any thoughts of going to Iceland. See, I would never think of going to Iceland, but I was there two—for another year. My husband and I—our child. We had a son born there.
Weeks
In Iceland?
McClendon
In Iceland. yeah. I had a son born in Iceland who has dual citizenship, but I never would have saw Iceland had it not been for the military. Never would have saw Germany had it not been for the military. I mean it wasn’t on my list. Okay, Dee, you must go to Iceland. You must go to Germany. That would have never been on my list. I don’t think.
Weeks
What was your favorite place that you traveled?
McClendon
I loved Germany. I loved Germany. I think at the time I traveled there, I had a brother stationed there. so I was able to see some things. He took us on tours. We were able to see the castles and all the old artifacts. So I loved Germany. Germany and Iceland was[sic] my favorite. Germany and Iceland was[sic] my favorite.
Even though I wouldn’t say that when I first got to Iceland. I tell you, it’s so cold there you can barely see your hand in front of your face. I mean they have what they call “white outs.” It is so—I mean, the snow and everything and the wind is blowing. You can’t even see your hand in front of your face. That’s how cold it is. I got off the plane and my sponsor was waiting there for me with a big parka. It looked like an Eskimo parka with a hood and the fur. That thing must have weighed ten pounds. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed Iceland, as well. And I enjoyed Germany. But you know what? I just enjoyed—I made the best of every place that I was at.
We did a tour in Key West[, Florida]. I hated to go there, but somebody had to do it. We did a tour in Key West, but you know what? When the military said, “This is where you’re going.” The first thing I do is—Okay, Dee. What’s unique about this place? That’s what you want to see. You’re gonna be there. Make it work for you. So that’s what I did. Well, just in case I never get back again, I’m gonna make sure I see this, this, this, this, when I can. So that’s what I did. I just viewed it differently. I didn’t view it like, Oh gosh, I don’t want to go there. No. I didn’t view it that way. I said, You know what? I just view it as another opportunity that I probably wouldn’t have otherwise.
Weeks
Did other people have that same kind of mindset?
McClendon
And you know what? I don’t think so. You talk to people and I just believe that you like it or you don’t. It’s probably not appealing to a lot of people. Every two or three years you’re picking up. I mean every two-three years you’re just getting settled. Now you’re picking up and moving to another assignment. Oh my gosh. Now you’re going to some place where perhaps you may not even speak the language. It could be a country—a foreign country in Italy or some place. Or it could be a place they’re sending you where your language is not the dominant language. Now, if you have a family—oh my gosh. I just got my kids settled or now. I’m just in school myself. Now it’s time for me to transfer.
I just believe that you either like it or you don’t. For some people it works. For some people it’s not their cup of tea. Some people say, “You know what? Let me just try it.” At the end of that term, “You know, I don’t think that was for me, but I wanted to just give it a shot.” It just depends. I think that’s the main thing. Even in the civilian sector—I mean, you walk into a job now, either you like it or you don’t. You know what? Let me just stay here until something else better comes along. You either like it or you don’t or you make it work for you. You know what? I like it. My job is to be there. Whatever I’m gonna do is whatever I need to do. If I need more schooling, if I need community service, I’m going to walk in with where I want to be in that company and you just start and you work toward a better [inaudible]. Again, like I said, you talk to some people and they don’t like it. I just think it’s different for everybody.
Weeks
You mentioned that your son was born in Iceland. How did the birth of your son change your time in the military?
McClendon
You know what? It didn’t. When we got there—actually, I was pregnant with the child when we got there. My son was born probably about maybe three-four months after I had gotten there. We enjoyed Iceland. Our original tour was only for two years and we enjoyed it so we asked for a year extension. I enjoyed Iceland, in addition to seeing some of the other countries. You know, I like the Naval Air Station Keflavik, Iceland.
At the time when I was in, you lived aboard what they call the greeting area. Everybody lived on base. You’re not allowed to live off base. Of course, just the closeness and the comradery between the sailors was very good, because we were all there together. For me, we had an added benefit, because my boss at the time working at the Naval Legal Services Detachment at the time. His wife was Icelandic, so we got to go to places that we probably would never have gotten to go, because we just don’t know the country. We just don’t know the country, so I really enjoyed that. We just wanted to stay an additional year and it would have been nice and I probably would have stayed a little longer, but, I mean, career-wise, I think it was just time to move. I didn’t want to stay dormant in one place too long.
Weeks
One thing that we ask everyone who has been to the Naval Training Center is what do you think its lasting legacy in Central Florida is?
McClendon
I think the lasting legacy is—and I’m just going to speak toward when I was there. I think one of legacies is going to be—that’s the only facility where men and women train together. That’s what I remember. The men and the women trained together—one of the first bases to have integrated companies. Nowhere else did they ever do that. They didn’t do it in California. They didn’t do it in Great Lakes. We trained together, which made sense to me. We’re going to fight together, so why can’t we train together? I think that’s one of the lasting legacies.
Weeks
Why do you think other training centers didn’t allow women?
McClendon
You know what? That’s a good question. I don’t know, because the only other centers were out in California and Great Lakes. Maybe harassment? “Oh my gosh. Men and women can’t train together. Oh, what would that do?” I never knew the reasoning behind that. If a war broke out, men are not going to be on this side and women on this side. We’re all going to be together. That’s the legacy that I remember.
Weeks
What do you think visitors would like to see or be reminded of when they visit the site of the base?
McClendon
What they would like to see?
Weeks
Yeah.
McClendon
When they revisit the base here? You know what? What I miss is the [USS] Blue Jacket. I miss the Blue Jacket. I really do miss the Blue Jacket. Of course, we got a tour there. I missed the bear. We had some beautiful compounds, but I really do miss the Blue Jacket. Even now, when I go down that street—there’s a park down there—when I go down that street to go to the VA [Veterans Health Administration] hospital for my appointments, I always look over there. I look over there and I’m like, Oh my gosh. I remember that. I remember the tour.
Everybody gets the tour that comes at basic training, because obviously—Navy—you go to sea. You’re on the boat and it’s a replica. It’s exactly how it looks. It’s exactly how it looks. So you get to go down those hatches—those itty bitty small hatches that you can barely fit in. You go down those hatches—the bells. Permission to come ashore. permission to come aboard. You do all of that. It’s a true replica. They train you exactly the way it is in the military. The way it is once you leave those gates. They really prepare you for the outside. Now whether you chose to use that or not it’s really up to you but they prepare you. They really do. I can only speak for my two company commanders. They do an excellent job at preparing us for the fleet.
Weeks
Tell me about when you were getting ready to leave the Navy.
McClendon
When I was getting ready to leave the Navy, of course—mixed emotions. Of course, it was the only thing I knew and actually even after I retired, I was looking at different high schools trying to get on as NJROTC [Navy Junior Reserve Officers' Training Corps] instructors. It was a really big adjustment for me, because that was the only thing that I knew and it was so totally different in the civilian world.
Number one: now there’s no uniform now. Just to hang the uniform up was a big adjustment for me, because for years, every morning I didn’t have to decide what shoes go with what. I knew it was going to be the black boondockers. Okay. you’re going to put on your whites or your blues. So just to not get up to put the uniform on was a big adjustment. It was really an adjustment period for me.
I tried for years to get back on. Obviously, on retirement, I couldn’t come back in. Even now—I’m too old now—but if they called me and said, “Dee, we need you.” I’d be just—“Let me get my sea bag ready. I’m ready.” They wouldn’t do that now. I’m just too old now to go back in.
But yeah. it was a big adjustment. Retirement was bittersweet. It really was bittersweet. Number one—Oh, Dee. what are you going to do? Put us under—put to the side everything that you’ve known for all these years. Now you’re going to embark on something different. Just the thought of, Oh my gosh. Now I have to go on an interview. How do I interview? What do you wear to an interview? What do you wear to an interview? Just the thought of having to look for a job, that was kind of scary. Once you get through all of that, it all worked out. Walked into a job and it’s been there ever since. It was bittersweet. Bitter, because it kind of left a bitter taste in my mouth, because I was walking away from everything that I knew. And sweet, because now you get a chance to live the rest of your life. You dedicated the first portion to the military. Now you get a chance to build the rest of your life. Whatever that entailed. I knew I’m going to work in somebody’s legal office, because that’s all I knew how to do and that’s what I enjoy. So why change what works for you?
WeeksIf it ain’t broke…
McClendon
Absolutely. [laughs] Absolutely. It was just bittersweet and to this day, do I miss it? Yeah. I still do and I’ve been retired for a while and I still miss it.
Weeks
What’s the most valuable thing the Navy taught you?
McClendon
That I can do whatever I set my mind to do. That I can do whatever I set my mind to do. It’s pretty much—and I will say military—although the military has taught me that, I think that really stems back just from my parents, my childhood. They encouraged all of their kids. You know what? If you can see it, you can do it. You can see it, you can do it. You can dream it, you can do it. That’s what I try to do to my children. Now, if you see that right there, that means you can aim for it. It’s right in your path. go for it. If you can see it, you can do it. I believe that.
Weeks
Is there anything else you would like to add that I didn’t ask you about?
McClendon
No. I think we pretty much covered everything. Such a wonderful interviewer and you did a wonderful job. No, there’s nothing I would like to add.
Weeks
Well, thank you so much.
McClendon
You’re very welcome.