Motta
This is Daniel Motta.I am interviewing Mr. Bob Hattaway at his business, Adult Toy Storage, in Altamonte Springs.To start, Mr. Hattaway, could you tell me where you were born?
Hattaway
I was born in the city of Altamonte Springs in 1936, which today, the location is on Lake Orienta, which at one time was called Orienta Ferneries, later in years.And the Hattaway family lived on that property for a number of years, probably 30 years, or something.
Motta
So you were born on the property?
Hattaway
I was born on the property, yeah.At that time, when I was born, 1936, a lot of people did not go to hospitals.They couldn’t afford it.So I was born at home.
Motta
And could you tell me a little about the neighborhood, the house, property?
Hattaway
The property, basically—it was 150 acres of property.Thirty acres of the property was into a fernery slat shed growing tropical foliage and plants, mostly asparagus plumosus fern, and then another fern called leatherleaf fern, which came on in a later date, which became very popular in the flower industry.But we were growing plants and flowers and a lot of different products back at that time, to sell.So it was a very rural area.Altamonte Springs had one road leading in and one road leading out, and it was Highway 436 [Florida State Road 436].If you wanted to go shopping, you would get on 436 and travel [US Route] 17-92 to Downtown Orlando, because there were no stores in Altamonte Springs, or Casselberry.You had to go to Orlando to shop.
Motta
And I imagine 436 looked a lot different then.
Hattaway
Yeah, 436 was probably a two-lane road, and going through the middle of Altamonte Springs was a four-lane road divided in the middle by two very large rows of oak trees, from about where the Altamonte Mall is today, all the way to the railroad track in Altamonte Springs.That’s going from west to the east.
Motta
Were any of these paved roads?
Hattaway
It was paved, yeah.Sometimes.But Maitland Avenue also was there, which was a two-lane road itself.But very rural.I mean, there was really nothing out here.
Motta
And you said, on the property, only part of it was ferns?
Hattaway
Yeah.Of the hundred acres, a lot of it, 30-something acres of it was slat shed fern itself, and the other was open fields, and we were growing plumosus or podocarpus, and were using that.We’d grow the podocarpus and cut that as cuttings and ship that to the northern market, to flower shops as well.So, and everything at that time, back when the fern business back in the [19]50s, and [19]60s, most of the freight was moved by rail, and not by truck.So there was a big depot in Altamonte Springs, and the depot itself, the major portion of it, was people like us—Hattaways, Casselberrys, Vaughns, etc.—shipping boxes and boxes and boxes of cut fern to the northern market, to flower shops.
Motta
And that would all take place here, or would it go to Sanford first, and go from there?
Hattaway
No.
Motta
Just directly?
Hattaway
There was a direct stop in Altamonte Springs and a direct stop in Casselberry, and also a direct stop in Longwood and Maitland.So they were little whistle stops, but most of the time they were stopping to pick up a product, like the fern product, and then some passengers.But there were no 7-Elevens, and there was absolutely nothing out here at that particular point in time.Not any tourists as well.
Motta
About how many families lived in this area, you think?
Hattaway
Well, you know, on the Orienta Fernery side, which was known as the Royal Ferneries at one time, there were probably—it was a housing development there, row houses for the migrant workers, or the workers, to live on the premise and work there, and [inaudible] 40-something houses with a church, [inaudible] on Hattaway Drive today, this long, long, long, then gone?.But they provided housing for people, and they were not great to live in and to be able to work.
Motta
And did your father build the houses and the church?
Hattaway
No, those were built back in the—golly.My father went in, they bought from Hibbard Casselberry, 1951.They bought what at that time they called the Royal Ferneries, and they bought that from Hibbard, and Hibbard bought it, I think, in 1946—‘45.And then my father worked for Mr. Casselberry, and my grandfather worked for Mr. Casselberry, and my two uncles, also, worked for Mr. Casselberry. All of them in stooped labor, cutting ferns by hand and taking it to the packinghouses, and then being able to ship the product to the northern market.And there were no Kmarts, and there were no big Walmarts, and those kind of things.Flower shops were flourishing.That was the mainstay of the fern business at that time, corsages and bouquets and things of that nature.
Motta
So what year did you say your father procured the property?
Hattaway
He bought the property from Hibbard in 1951.
Motta
Okay. So, when you were born, he was working in the industry?He just didn’t…
Hattaway
He was working with Mr. Casselberry.Yeah.
Motta
Okay. And what were your experiences like as a child? Did you also have any contact with—did you work in fields at all?
Hattaway
Yes, yes.Oh, yeah[laughs]. Those were wonderful moments.[laughs]
Motta
Could you tell me a little about them?
Hattaway
Out there with stooped labor, working in the—I would work in the summer months when I was out of school, high school and grammar school.I would pull weeds in the fernery.And they would hire a lot of young people like myself at that time—ten, twelve years old.And our job was—the fernery was full of weeds of various kinds, and so we’d line up ten, fifteen, or twenty of us in rows.We’d go down through and pull the weeds out of each row.That was a terrible job.I knew when that was happening I didn’t want to stay in the nursery business, or fern business.I darn sure didn’t want to be a stooped laborer in the field.But that’s where my family came from.I mean, they worked for every Casselberry.And Hibbard brought my grandfather and my father both out of the fernery, out of the field, and put my grandfather in charge of the fernery over[?]—which was the Royal Fernery at that time, Casselberry Ferneries as well—and put my grandfather in charge of that side of the fernery, and then my father went over to the main plant over in the middle of Casselberry, and he became the main foreman over there, in an office, working for Mr. Casselberry.And so Mr. Casselberry brought him out of the field, very little education, and put him in charge of a number of people.At that time, you know, back in the ‘40s and ‘50s, the fern business, it was a big business, and they were employing probably two, three hundred people.So it was a lot of people depending on the Casselberrys and the Foleys[?] in the fern business at that time as well.
Motta
So when you were in the fields doing that work that you loved so much, were you paid for that, or was that just something expected of you?
Hattaway
Oh, yeah.Yeah, we got paid for it.
Motta
Do you remember…
Hattaway
Twenty-five cent an hour.And I was, you know—I’ve always loved to work.That’s been my mainstay, and I’ve got great work habits.And I think most people back then did.I’m not sure what they have today.I know it’s not as good as it was back then.But Mr. Casselberry provided a lot of employment for young people when school was out, that they could work during the summer.And pulling those weeds was part of what you did.And I would get out, and we’d help with the repair of the slat sheds, repairing the irrigation systems, just to keep the fernery back in good repair, so we could grow the fern itself.But it’s hard work.
Motta
I’d imagine.
Hattaway
But, you know, I did that every summer.When I got out of school, the following week I’d be working in the field.
Motta
Could you tell me a little about where you went to school?Did you—high school, or did you go to college after?
Hattaway
Sure.I went to Lyman High School, grades one through twelve.I went to Winter Park High School the 10th grade to the 11th grade, and then came back to Lyman for the 12th grade itself.So I was actually grade one through ten at Lyman High School, the old school.
Motta
It wasn’t called Lyman High School then?
Hattaway
It was called Lyman High School, yeah.
Motta
But it was one through twelve?
Hattaway One through twelve, yeah.There were, when I graduated, in 1954—’55 there were twelve boys and one girl in my class.Thirteen class.And the class behind us, I think, had 25.So it was a very small school back then, and grade one was, you know—all the way through.And I think they stopped that just before—no, it was still going on in 1955.It was still grade one through twelve, I think, at that time.But Lyman today is probably graduating one thousand kids at one whack.And you got Oviedo, and etc., etc.Great changes, but, you know, we had small classes.Probably the max in a class was 20, 25.Teachers were very personal.Teachers knew us all, and it turned out, had a good education.When I graduated from Lyman, I think there was only two people in our class went to college, and the rest of us went into the work field.And I immediately, when I graduated, I started buying real estate, starting my own fernery.
Motta
Graduated from high school?
Hattaway
Yeah, high school.I didn’t go to college. Didn’t go to college.And I was working—I got a job in Winter Garden with Continental Can Company, and they were making small cans to put orange juice into, frozen orange juice, and that was a—you’d put three cups of water with it…
Motta
The concentrate?
Hattaway
Concentrate, and do all those.I worked there at night, the night shift from 3:30 ‘til 12:00 or something of that nature.And then during the day, I bought a piece of property in Oviedo on Chapman Avenue[sic], and built my first nursery under oak trees.And I started my own business back in 1956—I guess ’57, ’58, something like that.
Motta
Where did you say the canning company was?
Hattaway
Continental Can Company.
Motta
Where was that?
Hattaway
In Winter Garden.
Motta
Oh, okay.So those…
Hattaway
It was a big canning company.
Motta
Pretty far from each other, the two?
Hattaway
I’m sorry?
Motta
The two jobs you had were pretty far from each other.
Hattaway
Yeah.Yeah.One was working in the can company, the other was working in the field, in a nursery.And started my own place.I bought an oak tree hammock.And we’d found by that time, in the nursery business, in the fern business, that slat sheds were very expensive, and you couldn’t keep them up because of cost, wood rot, and it became—they were falling down.So, we started…
Motta
How often do you have to replace those?
Hattaway
Oh, you were constantly working on the building, on the fields themselves, and you’re talking about 30 acres of slat shed.Just slats are, you know, four inches wide.And sometimes they would kind of fall down.If you’re tall like I am, you’d run into a slat and hit your head and etc.So we went from the slat sheds into buying oak tree hammocks, and putting fern under the oak tree hammocks.And we also started planting in the ferneries—the old ferneries, oak trees inside of the fernery itself—to grow up through the slat sheds for shade.You were looking for a certain amount of shade.And so we started that, and that’s where the slat sheds kind of disappeared, and everybody, especially Mr. Casselberry, his whole side was nothing but oak trees.
Motta
Oh, really?
Hattaway
The side we had, and my father and grandfather had, over on Orienta Fernery side, they planted orange trees, which was a really, really smart move, because they always had orange trees—they also had the product of fern under that.The problem was, when they planted the orange trees, they budded the orange tree to Valencia, navels, or whatever it’s going to be.When they sprayed the orange tree spray on the fern, to kill worms, etc., it killed the buds on all the orange trees.Ended up with 25 acres of sour orange trees, and there’s not a lot of market for sour orange trees.So it was just a good concept, but it didn’t work.
Motta
So, by that time, there was pretty much the natural solution of replacing the slats with the trees?Like, is that what all the fern owners pretty much moved to?
Hattaway
Yeah.Yeah.Everybody was doing that.Everybody was doing that.
Motta
Okay.
Hattaway
Fern business was big not only here in Central Florida, in the Orlando area, Altamonte Springs, Casselberry, Fern Park, but it was big up in Crescent City and Pierson, which it still is today.
Motta
Yeah.
Hattaway
It’s the mainstay up there as well.
Motta
Was there any kind of rivalry between, like, here and Volusia County?
Hattaway
Oh, yeah.Oh my god.Yeah.Yeah.They would—and I’ve heard my father talk about the stories that the price of the ferns had become very cheap—and so the industry got together and met someplace up in DeLand or something, some little community, with the main growers all meeting at one concept.
Woman
Excuse me, do you need anything before I go to lunch?
Hattaway
No, I’m good.
Unidentified
Okay.
Hattaway
I’m good.They all went back to discuss the pricing, and I guess they were trying to do what you’d call the price fixing.But the typical agriculture business, they all got together, they all decided, shook hands, and this is what we’re gonna charge to the fern.All of them couldn’t wait to run back to the phone and call their customers in Chicago[, Illinois] or New York or where it is, and say, “Hattaway’s going up on the price of his fern by three cent.I’m gonna stay the same price” or “I’m gonna drop the price.”It never worked.And so they cut their throat time and time again.But there was great rivalry, especially, that I’m familiar with, between the Barnetts, the Casselberrys, the Vaughns.And there was a rivalry there because Mr. Casselberry started the tax-free town of Casselberry, and the Barnetts were a big, very wealthy family, had a lot of ferneries in the Fern Park, Casselberry area, and they didn’t like Mr. Casselberry, because he was so aggressive, and he was a new guy in town.And they got into a hell of a rivalry.So it was always a shootout.
Motta
And the Vaughns, you said?
Hattaway
Vaughns.
Motta
They were also in Seminole County already.
Hattaway
That’s right.Yeah.They were up in Casselberry—which you would never say “Casselberry,” you would say “Fern Park”—which today is the location of the Home Depot.
Motta
Near Lake Concord?
Hattaway
On 17-92 and Concord.That area.So yeah, there was a real rivalry going on between the small families with the Casselberrys.And those three, those were the three players.So.
Motta
And this was like the ‘50s, early ‘60s?
Hattaway
Yeah, ‘40s and ‘50s.
Motta
So when did the fern industry kind of start slowing down, in the area?
Hattaway
Oh, god.My father—I read this this morning—and it had so many ups and downs that I wasn’t even aware of—when I read his notes.And the, you know, just the price of fuel became so high, and labor became so expensive, that we really saw it when my father bought the place in 1951 from Hibbard, like 130 acres, Orienta Ferneries.He, within five years, was subdividing the fernery.And he became involved in real estate, which was a really smart move.
Motta
And these, the plots, were they designed for the houses and also, like, partially for ferns?Like, if somebody wanted to grow, like, a little on the side…
Hattaway
No. That was way before that ever happened.
Motta
Oh, okay.
Hattaway
That was a lot of little nurseries that were back in the ‘20s and ‘30s.
Motta
So this was purely real estate?
Hattaway
Yeah. purely real estate.Yeah.He started taking the fernery, which had a hundred and some odd acres, and started selling the land off itself to people that wanted to move.By this time, Altamonte Springs and Casselberry and the community started growing, and so people were starting to migrate, if you want to say that, from Orlando out into the country.And we were selling real estate lots on Lake Orienta—that was a fernery—and we took some of the slat sheds down and were selling real estate lots 100 feet wide, anywhere from 250 to 300 feet deep, for $2,000, for a lot, on paved road.
Motta
Around what year was this?
Hattaway
In the ‘50s—’58, somewhere along there, ’57, ’58.That area where Hattaway Drive is today, that drive that was all Orienta Ferneries, all the property that my father bought from Mr. Casselberry.But he went in like Hibbard.Hibbard went into the real estate business big time.He had a lot of land.And he saw the handwriting on the wall itself.The fern business was just not thriving.There was—and, a lot of artificial stuff coming down the line.People were using podocarpus.People were using [?], using a lot of fillers instead of using the fern.It was cheaper to buy a filler and put inside, in that corsage, for the price.
Motta
Oh.I was about to ask what were some of the reasons it kind of went down.That was pretty much just the artificial—were other parts of the country…
Hattaway
It wasn’t artificial, then.It was just shrubs and things they were cutting that they could stick into a bouquet of flowers.Bouquet of flowers won’t last, you know, a week, four or five days.So they could take sphagnum moss, or they could take a ligustrum, or something that’s leafy and green, and put it in a corsage at a cheaper rate than they could a sprig of fern, or a sprig of leatherleaf fern.
Motta
But if people did want those kind of ferns, were they still dependent on this area, or were there other parts of the country, do you know of?
Hattaway
Not from what I remember.It was mainly this area, plus the Pierson-Crescent City area, that was the mainstays.Later on, it became, everybody started to go off—not everybody.Several of the nurserymen started going off to Costa Rica and islands, and growing fern down there.In fact, one of the largest growers, probably still today, moved from Zellwood.Name was John Marcell.He moved to Costa Rica, and the last I heard, and I haven’t seen John in a long time, he had over 1,000 acres of saran shade cloth, growing leatherleaf fern, and ferns shipping all over the world.Actually, I’ve been told he controls the fern market in Costa Rica.This[?] big.[laughs]
Motta
Was Zellwood into the fern industry, or were they in other agriculture?
Hattaway
And actually Zellwood was—it was a small little town, still today.Marcell was the main grower at that time of leatherleaf fern.Went over to Lockhart, there was another grower over there, name of Joe Wofford, and he had a small fernery, probably ten or fifteen acres.He was growing leatherleaf fern.And Apopka itself had started transitioning over from the fern business—the Ustlers, Mahaffeys—golly, some other families there.But they were more into the tropical foliage business, and growing—building—greenhouses, taking slat sheds and growing tropical plants, which were now becoming very popular.So they shifted from the fern business over to the tropical plant business.And I shifted, also.I saw the handwriting on the wall.The one I built over in Oviedo, myself, it was only small as ten acres.But I sold that to another fernery guy out of Crescent City, took the money of that and started buying property in Altamonte Springs, off Hattaway Drive, and built my first greenhouses.And I went in the greenhouse business.So I shifted from the fern business over to the tropical foliage business.
Motta
More broad[sic].
Hattaway
Yeah. broader opportunity of selling to a greater amount of people.And my first greenhouse I built was out of used lumber, and I took a saw mill myself, and cut the two-by-fours and four-by-fours out of used lumber, and built my first building, which was 30 feet wide and a hundred feet long, which I have pictures of it there.And, gosh, over the years, became a pretty good size.[laughs]
Motta
And where did you say this first one was?
Hattaway
It was over just off of Hattaway Drive there in Altamonte Springs.Small place.
Motta
Okay.So how long were you—your property in Chapman, you said it was on Chapman Road?
Hattaway
Yeah.I was over there—I was in Chapman, probably, I had that nursery probably ten years.A good while, long enough that I’d made enough money working at night.At the Continental Can Company, they were paying me union wages, and I never joined the union.But I was making big bucks, and I was able to buy the land and do the things I’d need to do to get a business going.And it was pretty successful, but when I had the opportunity of selling that property to another person, then take that money and come back over into Altamonte, and go into a different business—although I was still in the agriculture business, it was a good shift.I ended up—well, the fernery there had 20 acres there on Hattaway Drive, and greenhouses—had probably ten acres of greenhouses there.And grew there for a number of years.To build the buildings, [?], build the buildings, I was—to get the lumber for that place—I was going, also to get the used lumber, I was going up and down the railroad tracks.They were taking down power poles and telephone poles, and I would cut the telephone poles and take the arms.At that time, they had arms going out with wires on them, and those were like three-by-fours, and they were like eight feet long, and I would use those for posts, as I gathered used stuff to build my whole nursery.
Motta
Were they just, like, the ones that they left there?
Hattaway
Yeah.
Motta
Was it okay that you took those?[laughs]
Hattaway
Yeah. definitely.They knew I was doing it.They were taking them down.
Motta
And, so, you pretty much built all those house, the original houses, yourself?It sounds like you’re a jack of all trades.
HattawayI am. [laughs]
Motta
Did you enjoy the growing aspect?Like, did you have a green thumb, or was it like…
Hattaway
Oh, yeah.
Motta
Did you enjoy the business?
Hattaway
I enjoyed the business, and I definitely did not have a green thumb.But I enjoyed the business, and I didn’t know anything else.What else could a guy do?There wasno—there was nothing out here.You either worked for the Hattaways, you worked for the Vaughns, you worked for the Casselberrys, or you worked for the Bradshaws in the grove business.This was agriculture community.There was nothing to do.Or, work at the dog track, something like that.So it was, you know—happy as a pig in slop.[laughs] What else can you do?This is what it is.
Motta
This might be going back a little bit, but did your family have any influence on early Altamonte Springs, like developing and like with the government?
Hattaway
No, my father did.He was elected a constable.He worked for Hibbard.And when Hibbard incorporated the City of Casselberry—I’ve heard my mother and father talk about that the night that they did the incorporation, they had a town hall meeting before it was ever incorporated in Mr. Casselberry’s office.There was a—had to have a certain amount of people in the meeting to have a quorum and to be able to appeal to the legislature for incorporation.
Motta
And this—as a town?
Hattaway
As a town.As a town.And they didn’t have four[?] people…
Motta
This was around 1940?
Hattaway
In the room, so my father left the meeting, went home—we lived on Concord Drive—and brought my mother to the meeting, and she voted, and that’s how, that was part of the process of incorporating the City of Casselberry.My father was elected in 1941 as the first constable of the City of Casselberry.And it was a, I guess, kind of a window-dressing job, but he was constable for eleven years in the City of Casselberry.
Motta
And that’s kind of like the police chief of the town?
Hattaway
That’s right.Yeah.He was the police chief.[laughs] I don’t think he even had a badge.[laughs] But that’s old time there.
Yeah.But you know, again, you know, this was small town, U.S.A.Hibbard would have—and I can remember this so well—he would, at Christmas time, he would have a big Christmas party on the front lawn of the offices, and for all the employees that worked for Mr. Casselberry, his entire operation.And he would get every kid a gift at Christmas time.And this was black, white, whatever it was be.He would always throw this big Christmas party.Big deal.You’d either get a knife or get a yo-yo or something like that.[laughs] But, and he was quite a—he was a good man.A lot of people, you know, just—vision, had great vision.And smart, wasn’t hard to talk to.He was a young man at that time.He was just good to us.He was very good for the community.Barnetts won’t tell you that.And the Vaughns won’t tell you that.But the Hattaways damn sure will tell you that real quick.
Motta
Did you know Mr. Casselberry personally, as a young man?
Hattaway
Mm-hm.Yeah.I knew him.He, and especially Leonard [Casselberry]. I don’t know if you’ve interviewed Leonard, Jane [Casselberry]?
Motta
Yeah. about a week or two ago.
Hattaway
Leonard used to come to my mother and father’s house, and Leonard would love to read comic books.[laughs] He—he wasn’t too energetic.[laughs] But he would come in and read the comic books, and Jane—they lived over off of the old race track road [Dog Track Road], at the horse track.He probably told you that’s what they built there, as well.
Motta
Yeah.Was knowing the founder and, I guess, owner at that time of Casselberry, was that like a—in this year, that seems kind of, like, strange, or maybe not strange, but—was it, did it seem like a big deal, or was he just like any normal citizen?
Hattaway
No. It was—to the normal person, it was probably a big deal.But because my father worked for him, and with him, I would go into my father’s office, and Mr. Casselberry’s office was right there.And he had a big picture window that he could look out into my father’s office, and then be able to look out into the grading there.They graded fern—longs, shorts, mediums, whatever you were looking for in the size of fern to ship.And, you know, he was just there all the time.He had a—I can remember so well—he had a big, big tarpon fish mounted in his office in back there.He would go to—my father, in fact, I’ve seen some pictures of him—he would go to the flower shows in Chicago or New York, where they might be, and Martha [Casselberry], his wife at that time—he married three times—Martha would wear, he would wear white riding pants—horses, cows?
Motta
Mm-hm.
Hattaway
And boots, real knee boots up there.With a big coat on.All in white.And a fern spray on this thing.Promoter.
Motta
Yeah. representing his…
Hattaway
Yeah.He was a promoter, as well.Promoted, and he had a knack about doing that, much better than the Vaughns and the Barnetts, as well.But, yeah, he was a good man.I can’t tell you that enough times.
Motta
So you started getting into the nursery, would it be considered nursery business or the greenhouse…
Hattaway
Greenhouses.Yeah.
Motta
How long were you involved with that before you looked more towards retail?
Hattaway
I started in the fern business when I got out of high school, 1954-55.I was in the fern business by 1960, with the fernery over in Chapman Avenue in Oviedo.And then started the first greenhouses and then grew that business.And I went out of the business in 1988, of the foliage business.So I graduated, basically, from the fern business over to the foliage, from the foliage into the foliage business itself.Ended up with this place, which is 500,000 square feet of what was greenhouses.But I built steel structure buildings, I told you.And today it’s now the steel structure buildings that are storing boats, cars, and recreational vehicles.1974-75, I bought a farm in Puerto Rico, and I started out with thirty, three thousand, building 3,000 square feet—300—yeah, 3,000, 30-feet wide and 100-feet long.And I bought a farm in Puerto Rico that was 80 hectares of greenhouses.And I was shipping fern or foliage plants from Puerto Rico, by sea freight, to Europe.So I moved from 33,000 square feet, to a farm here, and a farm in Puerto Rico.And I farmed in Puerto Rico, foliage plants, for twenty years, twenty-two years.
Motta
Did you sell that land, or still…
Hattaway
Yeah, I did.I sold it.I sold it.I wanted to go out of the nursery business.My brother, and then, by then graduated from University of Florida, had a degree in horticulture, and he wanted the nursery in Puerto Rico, so I sold the nursery to him in Puerto Rico.And he farmed in Puerto Rico for, I don’t know, another eight,-nine years.And we had three major hurricanes hitting back to back.First time we had insurance.We rebuilt.Second time, had insurance.Insurance company went belly up, and we rebuilt.And the third time, we said, “That’s it.”And we sold it.And then I was here all the time, and I just started converting all the buildings over to what you see today.
Motta
So about what time did you decide you wanted to get out of that business?
Hattaway
1988.
Motta
Okay.
Hattaway
Yeah.I already had another vision, what you see today.
Motta
Works out for you.
Hattaway
Yeah, it worked out.Yes.Yeah.It really—what was my whole plan at that time, was—I had roughly 30 acres here—was to add on a trailer park in front of me, which today is a public shopping center.And I was trying to buy their property, and I wanted to build a big industrial park, 40-45-acre industrial park.And I couldn’t buy that trailer park, and made them some ridiculous offers.I’m glad they didn’t take it, ‘cause the market went to hell in a handbag.I ended up, you know, basically looking at what they were doing, and I said, “If they will pay $35.00 a month to park a boat outside in an open field, with grass and grasshoppers, what will they pay to put it inside the building?”And from there, you know, it grew from there.So, in 1988, I was in the foliage business.In 2012, I’m now in the storage business.And the place is doing fairly well.
Motta
That sounds like a pretty brilliant idea, just converting the fields to this.Do you know if any other growers have took that...
Hattaway
No, no.They can’t.They all built buildings that were not convertible.They couldn’t do what I did.In fact, I saw Earl Vaughn two weeks ago. Had a funeral up in Apopka, and went over and we were talking—and I know Earl.Great guy.I like Earl.I don’t know if you’ve met him or not.
Motta
No.
Hattaway
You need to meet him.You need to meet Earl Vaughn.
Motta
I would love to.
Hattaway
Vaughn Greenhouses.They’re in the book.He’s no longer in the foliage business, but he has a farm, a foliage place up on [Florida State Road] Highway 46 up in Sanford.And saw him, and I said something, and he said, “Hattaway, what you did is brilliant.”He said, “I’ve been trying to do the same thing, except I can’t get my zoning.I’m in the Wekiva [River] Protection Area.”And so, he can do nothing other than what he’s doing.So, you know, fortunately, when I started building the buildings, I then started working politically to change the zoning on this place.And so I did it back early.If I tried to do it today, I’d probably never get it done.
Motta
Are you still involved in local politics?
Hattaway
I just write checks.[laughs]
Motta
[laughs] Well…
Hattaway
No, I’m still involved.I have a lot of friends in the political scene.I help them.You know, I served eight years in the [Florida] Legislature.Loved it, and had fun with it.Eight years at Orlando International Airport.That’s a full-time, non-paid political job, and did that for eight years.
Motta
And what was your—for the airport, what was your…
Hattaway
I was the—actually, I was chairman for four years, and vice chairman for two years, and on the board for eight.And the governor appointed me.Lawton Chiles appointed me.And so, I served there, and when I went on the board, there was $10 million worth of construction going at the Orlando International Airport.When I left, eight years later—yeah, eight years later it was—it was $500 million worth of construction going.And they had another $500 million committed to build the south terminal, and the new board decided that they didn’t want to do that, and so the new board today is trying to figure out how they can get the money to build the south terminal for international rivals.And, you know, that was a group of Democrats—John Rich, Bill Miller, Howard McNelty, myself—four really strong Democrats.We got in and got aggressive, said, “This place is gonna grow.”And we went from 22 million passengers—eight years later, it was like 31 million passengers.That’s growth.And all we did, we went out and started marketing the Orlando International Airport, as a board, as a group of people, with the mayor of Orlando, Linda Hood, and the county chairman, Linda Chapin.And we were a hell of a team, and we moved around this country, all around this world, basically.And brought airlines in, British Airlines[sic], Southwest [Airlines], Virgin [Atlantic].Those were all new carriers that came in that eight-year period of time.
Motta
Were you involved in the [Orlando-] Sanford [International] Airport or the…
Hattaway
That was my first venture.Back when we did that one, Kay Shoemaker was the chairman, and John—what was the name—Steve, he was the executive director.I can’t think of his last name now.But he came to me, I was a new board member, and he said, “You know, we need to go after international passengers for the Sanford airport.”So we went to Kay Shoemaker and talked Kay into letting us fly, I think it was, Toronto, Canada.And the concept that Steve had—and I was just the baggage, went along with him—that we need to go to Holiday Travel, and talk to them about direct flights from Toronto to Sanford, and not from Toronto to Orlando.And we met with the Holiday Travel, they thought it was a good idea, and he was very much in favor of it, but the issue was that the travel time coming from the Sanford Airport to [Walt] Disney [World], you didn’t have the 414, I think it is, or 4…
Motta
Oh,[State Road] 408, [State Road] 417?
Hattaway
417, yeah, coming across the lake.You didn’t have that segment built, and, so, that was a stopping point.When that segment was built, Holiday Travel and a lot of those guys started flying into Sanford, and bypassing Orlando.Well, in the meantime, I moved from the Sanford Airport board, over to the Orlando Airport.[laughs] So, it was quite a conflict there for a while.[laughs] And Larry Dale—and I don’t know if you know Larry—but Larry Dale and I had some real knockdowns and drag-outs about the airports.He’s the executive director of the Sanford Airport.
Motta
Oh, yeah?
Hattaway
Yeah.Yeah.
Motta
I’m curious how you, how did you even get involved with the airport, like the industry?
Hattaway
The governor.
Motta
Okay.
Hattaway
The governor.Yeah, I—when Lawton was elected—Lawton Chiles—I’d been in the Legislature.I knew him very well, and I worked with him for his election.And he was elected.He appointed me to the lottery commission.I didn’t believe in the lottery.I didn’t like the lottery.When it was approved, I was in the Legislature.I voted against it.And was opposed against it then, and Lawton told me, said, “I want you to be on that board.You’re the first Democrat to be appointed, and I want to get rid of the executive director.”I forget her name.She was really good, too.But he wanted to get rid of her and he wanted to change the entire board.He wanted to make changes.And so, I did that for a couple of years.And I was tired of it, and finally we just got enough Democrats on the board that I went to the governor, said, “I’m out of here.I don’t want to do this anymore.”In the meantime, when that happened, the [Greater Orlando] Aviation Authority thing came up available in Orlando, and I was supporting a Republican, Sue [inaudible] was her name, and Sue wanted to be appointed to the board.And I went to the governor to appoint her from Seminole County, and the governor says, “No, I’m not going to appoint a Republican.But I will appoint you if you want to take the job.”So I said, “Well, okay. I’ll do it.”
Motta
Did you have an interest in air travel?
Hattaway
Yeah, I did, because of Sanford.And I knew that it was a very, very important job.The Orlando International Airport is the economic engine that really runs this community today.And the things they’ve accomplished, and the size of the airport.This is number one around the state of Florida, certainly, that I enjoyed that.But I did, I was able to go into that segment having eight years in Tallahassee being a legislator, that I knew a little bit about politics, and I knew that a lot of my newfound friends that I found in Tallahassee, of eight years, when I was no longer elected, they didn’t know my first name or my last name.And when I was appointed to the Aviation Authority in Orlando, I told my wife, Charlotte, I said, “This is altogether different.We’re going to have a lot of brand new friends, and they’re going to love us for eight years.And when we’re gone, they won’t know our name.So we’re gonna do this different.We’re gonna do what the hell we want to do, and we’re gonna do the things that we think are right, and eight years from now, we’ll be good.”And that’s how we prefaced that.So it was fun.It was, like I said, it was a full-time—as a chairman—non-paid, political job.But would I do that again?Probably not.It was the right time.You know, I’ve been very fortunate that I’ve lived at the right time, when things were just starting to peak or things were really going smoothly, and everybody was getting along.
Motta
It seems like you’ve always been able to do what makes you happy.
Hattaway
I’ve been lucky.You’ll never sit across the table from a more blessed, lucky guy than me.Life has been good.With high school education, I’ve competed with all of them.
Motta
Work ethic.Whistling[?] away[?].
Hattaway
It’s worked out, worked out fine.[laughs] So, and I laugh about. In fact, I’ve brought my report cards in today for some reason, and I looked at those report cards, looking through stuff, and I said, “Man, I was a straight-F student.”[laughs] So, but, it’s been fun.Life’s been good, been good.
Motta
I wanted to ask you, for the Sanford Airport, when did that start becoming—when was it under construction?
Hattaway
It was, you know, it was a naval base [Naval Air Station Sanford], and then they converted over into a commercial airport, and I don’t remember the years.But I was on that board—phew.It wasn’t in the—must have been in the late ‘70s when they started converting it over.Yeah, I can’t remember the dates on that one.
Motta
So, did—it might have been the fern industry—I mean, it might have been kind of already low at that time, but was there any kind of transition?‘Cause you said the railroads, in the early days, that was like the artery.Was there, like, did the airports start to be more of a central thing with transportation?
Hattaway
With ferns, no.No.With the fern business, it became trucks.
Motta
Okay.
Hattaway
Everybody moved from the—we did some air freight, not a lot.Most of it was done by—the whole industry changed from trains and rail over to the trucking industry.So there was a—trucking lines were moving strictly either foliage plants or ferns by truck itself to the destination.The fern business itself—the labor, cost of labor, the cost of materials, the cost of land—all those things just became cost-prohibited to be able to do anything with it.You asked a question earlier about, you know, do I miss it?I loved the plant business.I really enjoyed it, and still today would like to be in the business, except I know I can’t make any money at it.And I’m not gonna fool around with something I can’t make money at as well.But, you know, the guys in Apopka and the guys that been in the fern business, and growing something, you know, a plant or product, I think they all will tell you, you know, it’s just a great place to—it’s a fun thing to do.And it’s really rewarding to put a little plant on a stem into a piece of sphagnum moss, and grow it to a finished product, and ship it.If I had a nickel for every plant that I’ve grown, I’d be a very wealthy man.Rick [Hattaway] enjoyed it.My brother enjoyed it very much.And I kept telling him, “You don’t want to go into the greenhouse business.You want to stay out of it.”My mother told me that as well.But, you know, he followed the family trade and did that as well.But, it’s a good life.It’s a good opportunity.
Motta
That whole watching something grow, that seems almost kind of like a good metaphor for your, all your business [inaudible].
Hattaway
[laughs ] Yeah.Yeah.I read an article today, an old one, gosh, about when I developed that orange grove over there, and it was—Phil [inaudible] was the city manager.It was quoting him about what I was doing over there, and how I environmentally was taking care of Lake Lotus, and all the things I did back then.But, you know, to see the growth, or where we were back in the ‘40s and ‘50s, and where we are today, people have opportunities.There were no opportunities when I was growing up.Either you worked in a fernery or you worked in an orange grove.There wasn’t high school education.People weren’t going to college.
Motta
You had to find your own…
Hattaway
You had to find your own, you had to make your own way at that particular point in time.
Motta
Since you brought that up, I’m curious what you think about how this area—I probably can’t imagine what it was like when you were a kid.What do you think?How do you think it’s progressed?Are you…
Hattaway
I’m for growth.I’m growth.Opportunities.I mean, I had a farm, sold it a couple years ago up in Alabama, little town called Opp, Alabama.And it was heavy agriculture, farming area.And today—Opp, Alabama—you can take a shotgun down the main street and not hit a soul.There’s just nothing to do there.And that’s the way it was here.The growth has been really, really, to me, healthy.It’s been giving good opportunities to people having good jobs.Our way of life—there are no poor people in this community today.You see some not as well off as others, but everybody either has a television, or everybody has food on the table.Everybody has an opportunity to make something of themselves, you see, if they want to take that opportunity.And back then, there was no opportunities.You had to make it yourself.And today there’s many doors open for employment, and it’s not all agriculture.At that time, it was.But am I in favor of growth?Absolutely.Has it been good for this community?Absolutely.Has it been good for this state?Absolutely.
Motta
Is there anything that you see in this community, that you don’t find good about—like, obviously, there’s a lot of good growth brings, but is there anything you lament that has changed, or any nostalgia?
Hattaway
I think the one problem that we have in our community is that we have not been able to keep up with the road—the growth with our road network—and mainly because of the lack of proper leadership from the Legislature.We’ve never had the political voting power to be able to build a road network they have on the south coast, South Florida—they have on the west coast.And our group has been splintered—Democrat, Republican— and many times have not worked together to have the power base in Tallahassee to get the state dollars to build—FDOT [Florida Department of Transportation]—to build our community.So we’ve not done a good job on our roads.And you have one major road going through this entire community, from Daytona Beach into Tampa, and that’s I-4.Other than that, you have very limited roads.If it wasn’t for the East-West Expressway [SR 408], the [Central Florida] Expressway Authority, we wouldn’t have any roads.So that’s been a blessing to us, but I think that’s our biggest problem.Our growth has been handled with zoning—comprehensive land plan—where the commercial’s going to be built, where the residential’s going to be built—all those things, I think, have been handled very well.We have a great water system, sewer system in Central Florida.We have all the things conducive to solid development, except the roads.And you get on these roads, and you know what it’s like.
Motta
Yeah.
Hattaway
Gridlock.
Motta
But I’m kind of surprised to hear that—weren’t a lot of the old, like ‘70s, ‘80s, ‘90s, Florida Republicans, weren’t they kind of pro-growth and infrastructure?Wouldn’t they…
Hattaway
Well, when I was in the Legislature back in the ‘70s, the [Florida] House [of Representatives] and the [Florida] Senate was controlled by the Democrats, and the Republicans were along for the ride.And then, when power shifted chains, we didn’t see a lot of growth coming here.I mean, we’ve had—I don’t want you to write this.
Motta
What’s that?
Hattaway
[laughs] I don’t want you to write this.This is off the record on this one.Yeah.
Hill
Today is March 6th, 2014. I’m interviewing Mike Partain, who served in the United States Navy. My name is Amanda Hill, and with me is [Carolyn] “Carli” Van Zandt running the camera. We are interviewing today Mr. [laughs] Mike Partain, as part of UCF [University of Central Florida] Community Veterans History Project and as research for the creation of the Lone Sailor Memorial Project. We are recording this interview at Mike’s home in Orlando, Florida.
Hill
Mr. Partain, will you please start off by telling us, uh, where and when you were born?
Partain
I was born at, uh, Camp Lejeune Marine Corps Base in North Carolina in January of 1968.
Hill
So your parents were in the service?
Partain
And[?] my father was a [United States] Naval Academy graduate and a Marine Officer.
Hill
In North Carolina?
Partain
Uh, yeah, he served in the Marine Corps, uh, in North Carolina.
Hill
And so what did your mom do for a living?
Partain
Uh, my mother was a housewife. Uh, she’s a French Canadian from the providence of Quebec[, Canada], and they met when he was, uh, in the training crews at the Naval Academy.
Hill
Do you have any brothers or sisters?
Partain
I have one sister, uh, born in Bethesda Naval Hospital[1] in 1970.
Hill
And growing up, where did you go to school?
Partain
Uh, well, after my father, uh, resigned his commission from the Marine Corps, we moved to, uh, Central Florida—Polk County.
Hill
How old were you when he resigned?
Partain
Uh, four years old.
Hill
So you moved here pretty early?
Partain
Yeah, I’ve been here pretty much all my life. This is—this is home. Uh, Camp Lejeune’s pretty much just a name on a birth certificate.
Hill
Were your par—were your—was your father involved in the Navy—the Navy at all when he moved here?
Partain
No, no. He was out of the service by then.
Hill
Okay. So what did you do before you entered the Navy?
Partain
Um, I was a college student. Uh, went to Florida State University for my first year of college and, um, didn’t do too well my first year, and when my father got my report card, uh, he informed me that I was on my own.
Hill
[laughs] Okay.
Partain
That’s why I joined the Navy.
Hill
So that’s why you joined the Navy.
Partain
Yeah.
Hill
Alright. So how old were you at that time?
Partain
Uh, I was 19.
Hill
19. So why the Navy? What…
Partain
Well, the—we’re a military family. My grandfather had, uh, served in the Marine Corps. Um, my father was in the Naval Academy and graduated 1966, and, uh, served in the Marine Corps of his commission. So going to the Navy was an opportunity. I, uh, saw a lot of different opportunities I can do in the Navy—pay for my education. That was my main thing was to get my college paid for, since, uh, I didn’t do too well my first year.
Hill
What were you looking to study?
Partain
Um, actually, I went in to the Tampa MET [Military Entrance Test] center[2] for the, um, [clears throat]—for testing and did the ASVAB [Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery] test—scored very well—and they pulled me aside and asked me if I would take the nuc—nuclear test for Nuclear Propulsion School in the Navy, which I did and scored, uh, very high on that. High enough that the commanding officer of the MET center came to me and asked if I would sign an enlistment contract right away, and I said, “No,” and that I was—that I wanted to think about it first, because I wasn’t totally sure that I wanted to go into the military, and I made the mistake of mentioning my father being, uh—was a Naval Academy graduate, and he ended up calling my father, and, uh, the two of them got together, uh, and I didn’t have a chance. I ended up signing my enlistment contract about an hour later.
Hill
Wow, so pretty easy decision?
Partain
Uh, yeah, it was. I mean I delayed my enlistment. This was in April 1987, when I was still, um—actually, uh, I had just got home from college and, um, I delayed my enlistment until January of 1988.
Hill
Why delay?
Partain
Just wanted to go in the winter months. I—I don’t like the summer. So I didn’t want to run around in the summer and do PT [physical training] in the summertime.
Hill
Makes sense.
Partain
[coughs].
Hill
So where did you attend boot camp?
Partain
Well, I joined the Navy to go see the world, and I ended up travelling about 45 miles north of where I lived and grew up in Orlando, Florida, at the Orlando Naval Training Center.
Hill
[laughs] Right. Were you, uh, looking to be trained then in a specific career at that point or were they looking to train you in a specific career?
Partain
Yeah, I was accepted into the Nuclear Propulsion School for the Navy, and I had to complete my basic training and then A School after that, which were both, at that time—both housed at the Orlando Naval Training Center, uh, here in Orlando.
Hill
Can you tell me more about the nuclear propulsion?
Partain
Well, um, I didn’t get that far. Um, uh, basically, from my understanding with the school, once I completed, uh, basic, I was gonna go into A School at the Nu—uh, Nuclear Propulsion School, and—which, um, I—if I completed that, I did a six-year hitch as part of the contract, and if I completed the school, then I would have gone into the fleet as an E[nlisted Rank]-3, which would have been Petty Officer [sniffs].
Hill
Okay. So that specific school—what are they—what do they do?
Partain
Uh, they train the engineers to run the, uh, nuclear propulsion systems for the Navy’s aircraft carriers, uh, and sub—uh, submarines that are nuclear-powered, and it’s a promising career path. It opens up a lot of doors. It was very tough. Academically, it was a very stringent program. If you failed, uh, out of the program, then you went into the fleet and served the rest of your hitch [sniffs].
Hill
What—what were you hoping to do with that?
Partain
Um, it was going to be a skill for me. Um, Open the doors, uh, to—you know, to have a trade and, uh, also go to college. Uh, my plan was to finish college, once I graduated—uh, once I completed my hitch in the Navy, and then take the expertise I had learned in the Navy, along with a—hopefully, a degree in nuclear engineering, uh, and go work in a private industry.
Hill
Okay. So then—so you began your training at NTC [Naval Training Center Orlando] in January of 1988?
Partain
Yes.
Hill
Correct? Okay. So you were pretty familiar then with the region, right? [inaudible].
Partain
As far as Florida? Yes.
Hill
Yes, um, [laughs] so were you…
Partain
I joined the Navy and see world, and go right into my own back yard. So…
Hill
Right. Were you familiar with the Navy’s presence in Orlando already?
Partain
Yes, I mean, I—growing up here, you know, the—growing up in Florida, especially, uh, at my age, and when the—the telltale signs of World War II are still all over Florida. Uh, Most of your airports are former Army or Navy Train—, uh, naval, um—Sorry. Most of your airports are former Army or naval training centers for the pilots during World War II, like Sebring [Regional Airport]. Even McCoy [Air Force Base] airfield, which is now the [Orlando] International Airport, was a training field, uh, during World War II. So, you know, there’s always been a military presence in Florida.
Hill
How—do you remember how you found out about that presence?
Partain
As far as—I mean, growing up, I mean, you see the bases. Um, you got NASJAX [Naval Air Station Jacksonville] up in Orlando.[3] You got [Naval Station] Mayport—I mean, sorry—NASJAX up in Jacksonville, and you got Mayport. You got Patrick Air Force Base, McCoy Air—I mean, uh, MacDill Air Force Base in Tampa.
Um, as a child growing up, um, the flight path for the Air Force, uh, fighters, to do practice bombing over in, um, Avon Park Bomber Range,[4] went over our house. After—every afternoon, we’d see [General Dynamics] F-16s [Fighting Falconfly] fly over and practice in Avon Park, and they’d come back, and sometimes they’d fly low, and, you know, you’d always see the military around growing up here.
Hill
Why do you think the Navy chose to locate a recruit training center in Central Florida?
Partain
Um, no idea, to be honest with you [laughs]. Um, I know during, uh—when a lot of military bases were here in Florida, or located here in Florida, because of the climate here allowed training year round, especially with the flying conditions. So—but as far as the Navy’s base in Orlando and the training center, um, I have no idea why they, uh, located it here.
Hill
That’s fair. Uh, so how long were you at NTC Orlando?
Partain
Well, um, I arrived in January, uh,—I think it was January 2nd, 1988, and I went through the first part of basic training. I made it through about four weeks—almost my fifth week—into, uh, training at, uh, NTC Orlando, And I broke out in a rash. Um, One of the curious things is it was a rash that I was born with at Camp Lejeune. Um, and periodically through my life, whenever—like if I wore dry-cleaning clothes, or, thing—you know, was around chemicals and stuff, I’d break out. Well, I broke out in this rash, and they couldn’t figure out why or where it was coming from. Uh, because normally, I could control it, um, and it just didn’t want to go away.
So the Drill Instructor, [clears throat] um, sent me down to the infirmary—the—the naval hospital, and they held me there for, uh, about a week or so, and tried to figure out what was wrong. They finally came up and said that, uh, I was, uh—because of the rash, that I was going to be disqualified for my program…
Hill
Mmm.
Partain
Uh, in the Nuclear Power School.
Hill
Did they know what it was at that point?
Partain
No, uh, they just called it an “atopic dermatitis.” Uh, and they informed me that it made in ineligible to go to the Nuclear Power School. So I ended up, uh—they asked me if I wanted to stay in the fleet, but that meant chipping paint for the six years I was gonna be in the Navy. So I asked them to go ahead and send me home and, uh, end my enlistment at that point, which they, uh, gave me my uniform. I went home as an E3, so I dressed up in my Navy blues, and got my sea bag, and, uh, they sent me home, but, uh, [clears throat] the, um, wha—during that time that they told me I was going home to the time I went home, they put me in what they called a “medical hold company,” where it was—I was taken out of my training regimen, and then put into a, uh, barrack, where other people who had been medically disqualified—they kind of let us sit there for a while. It was about two weeks before they told me, uh, that I had my orders to go home, and that—that’s another—I’ll tell you about that later.
Hill
So what was it like when you found out that you had to leave the Navy?
Partain
Well, um, I mean, the—the, uh—it was a disappointment, because I really had looked forward into getting into the career. Um, I had volunteered to do submarine duty, which was an extra pay, and, um, you know, to me, this was going to be my livelihood. Something—a school and trade that I could pick up and, uh, um, learn, and spend—you know, be able to make a career for the rest of my life with. So I was kind of left with the, um, uh—you know, I ended up coming home, and having to refigure my life and what I was going to do, and I ended up, uh—actually I ended up going to work for [Walt] Disney World after that, and I worked at Disney World for three years while I put myself through college [clears throat].
Hill
So let’s back up a bit…
Partain
Mmhmm.
Hill
To when you first got to the—the base. Um, what were your first impressions?
Partain
Well, um, you know, it’s intimidating. I mean, you’re coming off civilian life, even though I grew up in a military—military family. Um, nothing prepares you for the shock of going into the world of, uh, you know—of—of the military. It’s a totally different experience.
Um, the first shock is your lose your individuality. Uh, and that was, uh—that was the hardest thing for me to get used to—is the fact that you had to assimilate yourself into their world and their program, and, um, you know, you lost the—the “me” part of yourself, for at least awhile.
Hill
Can you tell me more about that? What specifically caused those changes?
Partain
[clears throat] Well, I mean, the first thing they do—they bring you in and you line up. Um, you know, they issue you a uniform, um, and it’s an assembly line. You’re given, uh, you know, your boots, eh, and all your gear, and you have to stencil your name on the gear and, uh—and your sea bag, and, um, and then they, uh, shave all your hair off. Uh, they, uh, you know—just going through that is, eh—it’s more—like I said, it’s an assembly line type of impersonal, um—uh, the impersonal, um, process, because, I mean, you’re—you’re moved from one place to another and, you know, you gotta, uh—eh, you just get to feel like you’re a cow sometimes, um, and, uh the other, you know—the other thing is the—as you go in and you’re all wearing the same clothes, you all look the same.
So everybody is the same, and that’s what I mean by “lose your individuality,” and, uh, then, you know, once you get into the barracks that begins the training process, which one of the first things they start doing is breaking down the individual and starting to form a unit. Because, you know, everybody—when everyone’s acting individually, you know—you have your own routines and stuff like that, and one of the first things [laughs] I remember—I knew this was going to happen, uh, because my dad had warned me, but, uh, everyone settled down for the night, and one of the first memories—and it was funny, because it just totally, uh, unnerved me—was, uh, I think, at about three o’clock in the morning, uh, the, uh—the DI [Drill Instructor] came in and threw the trash can down the barrack hall, making all kinds of rackets and screaming, “Get on the line! Get on the line!” And, um, I remember getting—getting up and, um, getting on the line in front of the barracks, and, you know, we’re in our skivvies and socks, and I’m sitting there shaking, and, um, I’m thinking, you know, What the hell? What the hell have I done? Because I don’t like getting up at three o’clock in the morning.
Hill
[laughs].
Partain
I don’t think anybody really does, especially when someone’s screaming at you and throwing a—a metal trash can down the—down the barrack, uh, hallway, and if you don’t—the—the trash cans being metal, makes a hell of a lot of noise, especially in a barrack on a tile floor. So that was the—that was the first morning of recruit training, and, um, they had a lot of different things in store for us as we, uh, went through this process. So it was—some of it was humorous. Um, I knew the purpose of it, which was, you know, some people—some of the guys didn’t do well with it, but, you know, I kinda laughed with some of the stuff that they were doing.
Hill
So life in the barracks then—if everyone’s the same, how does that affect the group dynamic?
Partain
Well, I mean, you still have people that look out for themselves. That’s the big thing is, when you get people who just don’t—you know, they’re used to taking care of themselves and, um, not—not thinking as a community. Because the whole purpose of the training is to get you thinking beyond yourself, to work as a team, to work together.
Um, like one of the first things that happened, um, when we, you know—we had to march together and they had to form us together and started doing things, of course everyone’s going off in different directions. Um, and I remember one morning, we went out and did PT—running around. and, um, came back, and everything that everybody owned at the barracks, uh, including, uh, the mattresses, the actual bunk racks—everything was heaped up into this massive mountain in the middle of the barracks. and we all walked in and we’re just looking at this. You know, everything we had was in—in the middle of the barracks, and the, of course, the DI comes out screaming at us, you know, uh, “Get this shit together!” You know, “Get this place in order and get it squared up and you’ve got 15 minutes, and, I mean, eh, the—we all looked at each other like, What the hell? So everyone dove[sic] in and people were calling out names and, you know, “I’ve got such and such.” and we’re spreading[?] out trying to get the barracks back up, and of course, we didn’t do it in 15 minutes, which proceeded to have more pushups and things like that that we had to do, because of that. Uh, the—once we get it squared away, it happened again, and, uh, later on, when it happened again, we did get it done in 15 minutes.
Hill
Are there any other examples of training experiences that helped shaped your relationships with other recruits in your class?
Partain
Uh, well, just—I mean, everything that we did. I mean, from the marching, I remember, um—uh, I didn’t—I don’t’ keep my step very well, so I had a hard time learning how to keep in step, and, uh, the guy next to me was trying to show me how to skip to keep back, you know—to get myself back into step. For some reason, I have no rhythm. So I just—I was just constantly out of step, and I would try to march on the outside, um—on the edge of the sidewalk, so that that way I wouldn’t be seen as much, but never failed. I always got called out for that, but one of the other things they had, uh—one morning, we had inspection and they called in all the, uh, company commanders.
The DIs came in and proceeded to rip the place apart, uh, while we’re standing there on the line. and they would come up to each recruit—and it didn’t matter how clean or how great you had your rack—your stuff stowed—there was always something wrong, and in my case, um, uh, I didn’t make my bed very well. Uh, and they ripped my sheet off, and the DI came up to me—I’m six-foot -two—and my DI was—I think he was probably five-foot-eight or—I mean, he would’ve done really well in the submarine. Um, But he came up to me and threw the sheet over my head, and was screaming at me and says, “You can’t make you’re fucking bed!” And he goes, “How old are you recruit?” “Nineteen, sir,” and he goes, “You are Casper the Catch Edge Ghost. You are to go around to each recruit in this command and walk up to them and raise the sheet and go, ‘Boo. I am Casper the Catch Edge Ghost.’ And put your sheet down and go to the next person. Raise your sheet and go, ‘Boo. I’m Casper the Catch Edge Ghost,’” and I had to do that the entire barrack for the, uh—for the company there, which I—you know, you can’t laugh, and I—inside, I’m laughing my ass off, because—I mean, to me, it’s hilarious, but if you laughed, it just makes it a lot worse.
So I proceeded to do that, and, um, you know, they, uh—and to this day, I don’t make my bed [laughs], and it’s for—ever since then, I do not make my bed, but, um, I had to, um—I just, uh, —it’s one of those things that—it stuck with me, I guess, but, uh, stuff like that—I mean, we had, um, you know—people didn’t have their stuff stenciled right, so they to, uh—they made them fix that. Just little things, and going through and—this process: they come in and they work on people and break them down, and then start building back up as a team, and over time, start marching together and you start doing activities, um, and things like that to—to get to work together as a team, and, um—the people who are struggling, you start to see your leaders step up to help them and, you know, get them in line, because the ones that were having problems—then they started getting, you know, pressure put on them, because they weren’t, you know, keeping up. Like, you know, I learned how to march and, you know, thankfully learned how to skip to catch my step and would get myself back in line, but, uh, you know, there are some guys that struggle with that. They didn’t know how to do it or they were intimidated by it, um, and, you know, you start to work together, so that they can’t get you. Meaning—“they” meaning the drill instructors, and, um, that—that was the neat part to see—everyone start to coalesce together and work together.
Hill
When—do you remember a specific moment or a specific activity that you really started to notice that team coalescing?
Partain
Um, I would say the, uh—we had one time, where[sic] we had a head inspection, and, um, no one liked cleaning the bathrooms, and it’s, you know—in the Navy, the head is your bathroom. So we had a head inspection and, um, you know, everyone pretty much—we knew what was going to happen if we didn’t get it clean. So everyone just dropped everything, ran in there, got it cleaned up, cleaned up, picked up. I remember, um, for some reason, I remember doing—clearing behind one of the toilets with a toothbrush—Not—and not one we were using, but one that we had assigned for cleaning and stuff—and trying to get everything out and spic and span, and, um, that was nice to see that, because, at that point, everyone, you know—everyone was working as a team, and, uh, um, the last part of the training was where you saw the—the team-building. Uh, unfortunately, I didn’t make it past, um, my fifth week, so I didn’t get to do some of the other stuff that they did—firefighting together and other things that I didn’t get to—get to participate in.
Hill
Right.
Partain
Um…
Hill
What would you pinpoint as some of those qualities that really helped bring the team together—that transformation?
Partain
Well, I mean, the, uh—the qualities is the—it’s the individual learning that they’re not the center of the universe, and that’s one of the things, uh—basic training in the military is to break down the individuality, to have people understand that, you know, you’re—you’re part of something, and the world doesn’t revolve around you. Uh, some people get it quicker than others. Those that do, do very well in the military. Some never get it, but, uh, that was one thing that, uh—that they, you know—everything was designed to do that. Uh, to do it to break down the civilian and then recast him as a—as person who could think in a military world, because, when it comes down to it, one, you now—in the military world, there is a chain-of-command—a hierarchy—and you are expected to follow orders, and there could be times that something could be going on, and you’re given an order, and, as a civilian, you might question it and be like, Well, I don’t feel like doing that right now, and you can’t do that in the military, because someone may tell you to do something, um, like shut a door and secure the door, because there’s a fire, and if you start arguing with them, then the fire might spread out beyond the compartment and—and jeop—jeopardize the ship and everybody on it. So part of the—that training is to get people to understand, you know, hey, there’s a time, you know—the time to be a civilian is when you’re off duty, but when you’re—when you’re on duty, you have your military bearing, you have—you follow it, and you, you know—you work for the good of the unit.
Hill
When you were off duty, was there ever any sort of social life with…
Partain
Oh, when I was in training…
Hill
Amongst the recruits?
Partain
No, no. There’s no liberty or leave—li—liberties really. There was no liberty, uh, in training. Um, the liberty took place when you graduated from boot camp. Um, so I did not get that experience. Uh, once—once I went into the medical hold company, and I stayed there, and, um, you know, that—that—once I got out, then I went home and that was it.
So, uh, one of the funny things that happened—um, my father and grandfather both sent in birthday cards for me, uh, while I was in training, and, uh—which normally wouldn’t be a problem, but they were being smartasses and they signed their card—they put in the address of the card—my father put down: “Captain Warren B. Partain, Jr., USNC” —I’m sorry—uh, “USNA class of ’66,” and, uh—and then my grandfather put, uh: “Major Warren B. Partain, Sr., USNC, retired,” and, um, the DIs, of course, got the letters and they called me up to the office, and, uh, you had to walk up to the office, you had to bang on the door and announce who you were, and then asked permission to enter in, and, uh, so I get into the office and, um, I see the birthday cards in my DI’s hand, and he goes, “So your father was a—was a ring banner?” And I knew right then what my dad had done.
The “ring banner” is a term—a derogatory term—for a Naval Academy graduate. So he goes, “Drop and give me 20.” [laughs] So—and he goes—of course, that wasn’t good enough, so I ended up doing like I think 60 or 70 pushups. Um, and of course, you know, that was because of what my grandfather and father had done, but, um, it was their amusement [laughs], but he wasn’t a mean guy. I mean, they started to like me. They’re not, um—it’s not like they’re sadists or anything like that—the drill instructors. They do it for a purpose, and then, you know. As you mature and things like that, you get to see what they’re trying to do and they really begin to teach you.
Hill
What would you say that purpose is [inaudible]? What were they trying to teach you?
Partain
Well, I mean, how to conduct yourself in a military fashion. A military bearing.
Hill
Okay.
Partain
Like one of the things—one of the things I still remember is to make sure my gig line is straight. Um, you know, when you get dressed and, uh, get everything together, your buttons line up with your belt—the edge of your belt buckle and your—and your zipper, so you have what’s called a “gig line.” It goes straight up from—from your neck down to your crotch [laughs].
Hill
So what was daily life like as a Navy recruit?
Partain
Well, everything was structured. I mean, you got in the—in the training, you got up at a certain time, you ate at a certain time, uh, you PTed at a certain time, uh, You had training and different things, uh, at—at different, um—at different times, and then they put you to bed. So you had no choice. I mean, very little free time. The only time we really got free time was laying in the rack before you went to sleep.
Hill
Who did you interact with on a daily basis?
Partain
Um, well, they kept you too busy. so you talked to your, um—your, you know—your bunkmate and the people around you, but for the most part you’re doing what they—they put in classes and they teach, you know—they—one of the first things they start teaching you is the UCMJ for the Univer[sic]—Univerm[sic] —Uniform Code Military Justice, which is the rules and regulations of the Navy. You know, how to salute, when to salute, um, how to march, uh, what you can and can’t do, um, And just, you know—it’s an emersion into a different life style.
Hill
Who were—you said you were taking classes, so who were your instructors?
Partain
Um, just other, uh—other, um—sometimes they were other Dis, sometimes they were, uh, just other people on the base. Um, No one that I really remember specifically.
Hill
Okay. Do you remember any of your specific classes?
Partain
Um, like I said, most of it— like the UCMJ. One of the funny ones, uh—probably not appropriate for this, but it’s one of those things that stuck in your mind. We’re sitting there showing slides and talking about the UCMJ, and they had, um—they had this slide come up, and it was on a pink background. It had a sailor sitting down, and on his lap, he had a dog, and there was a big circle with a line through [laughs] it for no bestiality, and I about but laughing when I saw it.
Hill
[laughs].
Partain
But they had—I mean, just stupid things like that, but, uh, the, uh, you know— when they start getting to the later weeks, like I said, they—[inaudible]—they—they’d have you march, and there was a lot of drill to get you to un—to get your body into the routines, and then later on, you start doing more class work, and, um, they, uh—like I said, they—they—one of the big things was firefighting. We are out doing firefighting duty, and then they have one a week, where you’re working KP [kitchen patrol] duty and stuff like that for the kitchen.
Hill
Uh, Could you clarify for me what, um—the acronym UCMJ?
Partain
University[sic] Code of Mil—Universal[sic] Code of Military Justice. [5] It’s the law for the military. So the military has its own, um—basically its own judicial system, uh, that’s separate from the civilian one. So they administer their own laws, and, uh, courts, and everything. So, like if I did something wrong, then I could be, uh—they have what’s called a “captain’s mast” or “court-martialing.” and your—whatever infraction, then you’ll assess whatever penalty or—or, uh, punishment that they have.
Hill
So what was the hardest thing you remember doing at NTC?
Partain
The hardest thing that I remember doing, um—I dunno. it was probably just the, um—I’m tempted to say—well, the—well, the thing that I didn’t like the most—that was hard or difficult for me—was in the military—medical hold company. Um, this—this was once they disqualified me from service. They put me in a limbo, um, where I didn’t know when I was going home. I didn’t know what was really going on, other than the fact that they were—they, uh—that I was being disqualified from the Navy, and they told me that, you know, it takes some time and it could take a couple days, a couple months. So I’m like, you know—no one likes to be in limbo, and they would have you do stupid stuff, Just to have you do it. Uh, like we went in to one barrack and we scrubbed the whole barrack with hand brushes, on our hands and knees, and it was just, um—stuff like that. That was, you know, trying not to get negged out. Um, that was the hardest thing for me.
I mean, to me, the training is easy. Um, you know, doing the physical activities, the running, uh, the marching, the learning. That was easy and it didn’t bother me. I mean, I enjoyed, um, the challenge of that. The hard part for me was when I realized that I was not going to be able to stay in the Navy, Having to wait, and then wait for the bureaucracy to process—process me out. Yeah.
Hill
Before we move on to that moment, um—because I do want to talk about that—can you tell me one moment where you felt really proud of your work in NTC?
Partain
Um, the—I think the proudest moment—I still have it—is, uh, my photograph. Um, they brought us in after we shaved us, and we’re all cleaned up, and they dressed us up, and they marched us in, and we took our photograph with the American flag behind us, uh, so we could send it home to Mom and Dad, and that to me was the proudest moment. Um, I—I still have that photograph. I have it on my Facebook page, and, um, I keep that, and, uh, you know—yeah[?]. It’s just a little snot-nosed kid in his little sailor’s uniform, but it—to me, that was something that I could show that hey, you know, I’m serving my country. I’m doing what’s right and trying to make, you know, things a little bit better than when I found it.
Hill
Did you send it home to mom and dad?
Partain
Oh, yeah.
Hill
What’d they say?
Partain
I think, uh—I mean, ma—they wrote me back, and I had a girlfriend, at the time too, and she wrote me. I had letters from her, um, on a daily basis. I still got them, and, uh, the, uh—I’ve got a stack of letters about that thick that she wrote to—back and forth, and that was nice, you know, to have someone writing back and forth. It—it kind of killed the monotony. You’d look forward to—you know, that was you’re little piece of individ—individuality. You get your letter and mail call and—and to read that, and, uh—but yeah. I sent that home to Mom and Dad, and my girlfriend.
Hill
So when did you leave the Navy then?
Partain
Yeah, I was, um—it was—I don’t remember the exact day, Um, but it was in February, uh, of ’88. It was roughly about two months after I’d got there. I think I served just under 60—60 days, or somewhere close to 60 days, and, um, basically they came in and told me to collect my gear, um, get my dress blues on, and they sent me home. See, when I enlisted, I enlisted, instead of as a, uh—um, going in as a seamen, I would have—when I completed everything, I would have come out as a, uh, Petty Officer—an E-3.
So, um, they allowed me to go home with a—with that uniform and that rank, which is kinda nice, you know? It was funny, ‘cause everyone else were[sic] being sent off, and I get my orders and am being put on a bus. They asked me if I wanted to go on a bus, or I think it was a train to Water Haven, and I said, uh, “Just drop me off at the airport.” I called my mom and dad and told them to come get me, because the airport’s, you know, 45 minutes from my parent’s house. Because a bus would have taken like 3 hours to get there. So I had them drop me off at the airport, and I played video games [laughs] for about two hours while I waited for my parents to come get me, but it was nice to, you know, walk around the airport in the—in my uniform and get home, and I saw my girlfriend in my uniform and that, uh—that’s always fun.
Hill
Um, so have you—what did you do once you left?
Partain
Um, well, once I was out of the Navy, I went back to college. Um, of course, the—my plan of having the Navy, uh, as a career and paying for my college that way kind of fell through. Um, I went to work for Disney World, and, uh, finished my AA [Associate of Arts] degree, and then transferred up to Florida State University and married my girlfriend, and I completed my degree up there, and, uh, you know, worked my way through college.
Made me appreciate my education a lot more, and, uh, one of the things ironic things and—that happened—and it kind of comes back full circle with NTC Orlando—um, seven years ago, I was diagnosed with, uh, male breast cancer. Oddly enough, my birthplace was extremely contaminated with, um, drinking water—I mean, uh, solvents in the drinking water, and one of those solvents is called Tetrachloroethylene, which is used in dry-cleaning, and it’s linked to breast cancer. Um, whenever I was a child growing up, I would break out into the rash I told you about, because—well, shortly after I was diagnosed, I went back, and I remembered my experience at NTC Orlando, and the fact that I had broken out in this rash after, uh, I had gotten on base. So I looked up the base, and like Camp Lejeune, NTC Orlando was declared a Superfund[6] site, um, uh, partly because of the Tetrachloroethylene dumped from the base drycleaner, which was located right next to the barracks, where I was housed as an enlisted, uh, sailor, uh—seaman—in, uh—in 1988, and the base was actually closed down in 1995, um, and listed in—into the Superfund site at that time, which, uh—it’s one of those odd things that I always wondered about is: how bad was the base contaminated? Because, soon as I got home, the rash that I had broken out with, while I was in training, cleared up
Hill
Hm.
Partain
Without any—within days of being home, and, uh—and it never broke out like that again, like I did when I was on base, and [inaudible]—when I rented on base, I was fine, and, uh—so it’s one of those things that makes you wonder, and my understanding is that the—the, uh, base drycleaner—he said they had been dumping this chemical on the base and it was a plume of it that actually stretched underneath the recruit training barracks, like I said, and ended up, I think, in Lake Druid—is where the chemicals were coming out.
Hill
Did—was there ever any cleanup measures taken?
Partain
I don’t know. I didn’t look into that. I’ve been tied up with the Camp Lejeune issue since then, but one of these days, I’d like to go back. I’d heard some things that had happened here, but I didn’t follow the—the end results of, um, NTC Orlando after that. I know they closed the base down and I think the developed it—part of it as a private community.[7] And I heard there were some problems here, but, uh, you know, like I said, I didn’t really follow—follow up on it, but I thought I would mention it.
Hill
Did you keep in touch with anyone from the base?
Partain
Uh, one of the guys I enlisted with, um, actually, was a high school friend of mine. We both went into the Nuclear Power School together. Um, His name is Alex, and he was actually, um, accepted into the United States Naval Academy, like my father, and he still presently serves in the Navy. I believe he’s a Commander or a Captain now. I do not know his rank. I haven’t—I haven’t kept up with him the past couple of years, but I think he’s a commander. but he did serve—uh, he’s—he’s still serving, and, uh, actually got an appointment to the Naval Academy, which is one of—one of the things I was hoping to do myself.
Hill
Uh, so one of the things you mentioned earlier is that, um, the Navy teaches you that you’re a part of something larger.
Partain
Mmhmm.
Hill
Would you say that that’s something that you feel you’ve carried on to the [inaudible]?
Partain
Well, growing up in a military family, it’s always been indoctrinated into me for that. Um, Like I mentioned, I, you know, became involved in the Camp Lejeune issue mainly, uh, because, you know, I realized what had happened to me wasn’t unique, and I felt a responsibility to speak out and help the other Marines and families, which I’ve been doing for the past seven years. So, I mean, that’s—growing up in a military family, um, you know, you—it just—it’s service, God, honor, country. I’m mean, that’s the way I was raised, and when you go into the service, you’re taught God, honor, country.
Hill
Are there any other values or characteristics, um, of the Navy that you think transferred to the rest of your life, as well?
Partain
No, I mean, the God, honor, country is[sic] primarily the core principles with which I’ve tried to guide my life.
Hill
What would you say is the most valuable lesson you learned during your time at the Navy?
Partain
Um, probably, never give up. You know, you always—you always keep moving forward and just, you know, never give up.
Hill
Can you remember a time while you were, um, in training that you felt like giving up, but didn’t?
Partain
Um, got lonely. I mean, left my girlfriend behind and, uh, there was a time where—yeah. I was thinking, Okay. I’m going to be doing this, going off at sea for six months, and I don’t know if I like that, and, you know you just—you look back and say, Well, why did I join? I joined because I wanted to get an education, I wanted to get a trade, and, you know, the Navy’s going to provide that, and, you know, you—you quickly overcome those things. Feelings are temporary [sniffs]. Good and bad [sniffs].
Hill
What do you think the lasting legacy of NTC Orlando or the Navy’s presence in Central Florida has been?
Partain
Well, the, um—for me—and understanding what I have come across, because of my, you know—because of the issue with breast cancer—it—unfortunately, I mean, NTC Orlando’s gone. Uh, it’s no longer there. The vestiges are still here, but what the Navy left behind underground, that is going to be here for years to come, and that’s something that really has not been addressed in a great deal with the community. Um, And sadly, that—in the end, that becomes the Navy’s legacy—is not for the good things they did, but for, you know, the irresponsibility for leaving toxic chemicals behind.
Hill
What actions would you like to see taken to resolve those issues?
Partain
Um, well, I’m not familiar totally with the issue to—to see what they’ve done. I know, as part of the bra—uh, Superfund site, they’re required to cleanup. Um, to what extent they’ve cleaned up, I don’t know. Uh, there’s a lot of different laws and, uh, different, um, procedures in place, but, in the end, you know, that—that’s something the Navy, um—well, I don’t know what to say on that. Sorry. I got distracted. The ADHD [attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder] is killing me here.
Hill
[laughs] That’s alright. That’s alright.
Partain
But[?]…
Hill
Um, so…
Partain
It’d be—it would be nice to have…
[phone rings]
Partain
We have a phone distraction here.
Hill
It would be nice to have…
Partain
Hm?
Hill
You were saying…
Partain
Okay. It would be nice to have an independent, um, historical analysis of what, you know—what the Navy did and exactly what the Navy legacy is. I mean, the—the infrastructure of the base is gone. Um, what’s left is the land that they owned on the base, and what did they leave behind on that land? and how will that affect the community? And sadly, you know, u, what was not cleaned up by the Navy, uh, will be there for some time to come and, you know, somebody’s gonna have to pay that cost.
Hill
So how do you think uh,—how is the NTC—well, you talked about how the base has changed. What about the region? Um, Central Florida as a whole. How do you think it’s been impacted since the base closed?
Partain
Well, the, um—I mean, the base itself, um, wasn’t a, uh, mega base, like you would have, say, with, um, Mayport Naval Station up in Jacksonville. Um, It had an impact on the community, uh, but not, you know—there wasn’t aircraft being serviced, um, there wasn’t[sic] ships and, you know, the contractors to work the ships and things, you know—servicing the ships or what have you. It’s a training center. So, uh—and I would say there was an economic impact. To what degree it was, I don’t know.
Hill
kay. Um, what do you think visitors would like to see or be reminded of when they revisit the site of the base? The [inaudible].
Partain
Well, I haven’t been back since I left, and, um, I’ve driven by it a couple of times. Uh, there was a gaming store called Enterprise 1701 near the base, where I used to get my board games. That was a hobby I had, and I—it would be nice to go back and see the site, uh, of where the base was, and maybe something commemorating that it was here, and, uh, I am curious to go back and see and see—and see exactly what is there, uh, and what’s left, and what they’ve done with the, uh—with the base and the Superfund site stuff, ‘cause there’s[sic] things that I’m aware of because of my involvement with Camp Lejeune and being on Camp Lejeune, that, you know, when you go on base, you look at things, and unless you know what you’re looking at, you don’t know what it is. So I’m kind of curious to see what’s there on the base.
Hill
Did you ever go back?
Partain
No.
Partain
I understand that the old naval hospital is the VA [Veterans Affairs] hospital now.
Hill
Now…
Partain
So I’d be curious to see that.
Hill
Were you ever at that hospital?
Partain
Yeah, that’s where I was…
Hill
That’s where you were disqualified.
Partain
Disqualified from service. They sent me to that hospital. I remember marching by myself with a chip, um, going down to the hospital, and, you know—and then, they were really puzzled, um, by what was happened with me. Matter of fact, I later got my me—my medical records from the Navy, and, uh, they were really puzzled why I broke out, because it was all over my arms and my face and was a blood red rash, and, um, they could not figure out what it was, and, uh, they kept asking all kinds of questions. They—they’re like, “Well, you had this when you si—when you signed up,” and I’m like, “Well, I was born with this, but it’s never been a problem like this,” and they said, “Well, how did you get passed recruit training or the recruit indoctrination and all that?” And I said, “Well, I wasn’t breaking out.” I said, “This is something that—normally, it comes and goes.” At the time, I thought it was, you know—in the wintertime, I’d break out or if I wore dry-cleaning clothes, and I thought, at the time, that it may have been the clothes—the polyester rubbing against my skin doing it. I had no idea that it could be anything else.
Hill
Right.
Partain
Because it would—I mean, I didn’t find out about what had happened to me at Camp Lejeune until, uh, 2007, which is 20 years after I joined.
Hill
Um, what was it like in the—the hospital—In the Navy hospital?
Partain
Um, just you’re standard, you know, ultra-clean hospital. Nothing—nothing special.
Hill
Nothing special? Okay. Uh, well, is there anything else you’d like to share about your Navy experience?
Partain
Um…
Hill
Anything you think I missed or we didn’t talk about?
Partain
No, I mean, it’s, like I said, the—I mean, for young people, the Navy—and in the military, in general, uh,—presents a lot of opportunities. You know, it’s not perfect. I could mention the contamination problem, with something present in the military especially during the ‘60s, ‘70s, and ‘80s, but, you know, for young people, it’s an opportunity to start your life, to pick up something, uh, unique, to learn, and more importantly, it—it builds a sense of self-discipline inside you. ‘Cause it’s very easy to forget that, you know, there’s more to the world than just you, and serving in the military is productive. I mean, it—it gives you a respect for yourself, respect for others, respect for your country. Um, and, you know, it’s something that, you know—I think everyone should do as a citizen of this country, and, uh—I mean, that’s just, um—there’s a lot of positives that come out of it. Now, the leadership of the military—that’s another story.
Hill
What’s next for you?
Partain
Um, well, I’m 46, and, um, uh, for me, um, I worked my career, raised my children, and, uh, I’m going back to get my Master’s [degree] in history, and I’m actually going to be writing about and doing research with, uh, contaminated military bases, uh—is my—my career until I retire.
Hill
So your experience has really shaped where you’re headed?
Partain
Well, the, um—more my birthplace. The, uh—Because of what happened to me, uh, before I was born at a military base, but, you know, NTC Orlando is one of those curious things that, once I put two and two together, I looked at it, and eventually, I’ll do the research on it and—and learn what happened there, but right now, my focus is other places.
Hill
Well, thank you so much for your time.
Partain
Oh, you’re welcome.
[1] Officially called the Walter Reed National Military Medical Center.
[2] United States Military Entrance Processioning Center Tampa.
[3] Correction: Jacksonville.
[4] Correction: Avon Park Air Force Range.
[5] Correction: Uniform Code of Military Justice.
[6] Comprehensive Environmental Response, Compensation, and Liability Act of 1980.
[7] Baldwin Park.
Van Zandt
Alright. Well, thank you for coming today. I’m so glad that you made it.
Sloane
My pleasure.
Van Zandt
Today is March 5th[, 2014] and I’m interviewing Mr. Richard Tobias Sloane, and he served in the United States Navy. Uh, we are doing this history project for the Lone Sailor Memorial [Project]. My name is [Carolyn] Carli Van Zandt, uh, and my cameraperson is Fernando Maldonado. We are interviewing Mr. Sloane as part of, uh, the Community Veteran History Project and Loan Sailor Memorial Project. Uh, recording here today, in the Education Building, Room 123—the conference room—in Orlando, Florida. Mr. Sloane, will you please begin by telling us a little bit about, uh, what branch of service you were in and your rank, uh, which you retired at?
Sloane
I was in the United States Navy. I retired as a Captain in [20]06 in the United States Navy. Started my service in 1964 at the Officer Candidate School in Newport, Rhode Island.
Van Zandt
Okay. Thank you. Uh, I’m going to get a little background information here. Can you tell us when you were born? Where you was born?
Sloane
I was born on March the 4th, 1943. Yesterday was my birthday, so this is very appropriate. I was born in, uh, the Borough of Queens, New York City, in the State of New York.
Van Zandt
Alright. What did your parents do for a living?
Sloane
My father was a, uh—a wholesale merchant in dry goods in New York, on the lower eastside of Manhattan. My mother was a homemaker, and later in her life, she was in retail, uh, store sales in New York—in Long Island, actually.
Van Zandt
Um, do you have brothers, sisters?
Sloane
I have two older brothers. Uh, my oldest brother was retired Navy Captain also. He attended the United States Naval Academy—Class of 1957, and, uh, the middle brother, um, attended Harvard University, and Harvard, uh, Business School.
Van Zandt
Alright. Uh, would you tell me a little about how, uh, your family life may have impacted your decision to, uh, enter the Navy?
Sloane
Well, there was no doubt in my mind that my oldest brother, who’s about seven years, uh, my senior, if you will, uh, attended the Naval Academy when I was young, uh, junior high school, uh, person, and watching him go through that academy for four years and then his, uh—the beginning of his military service definitely had an impact my decision to join the Navy. When I completed my studies at Boston University—and in 1964, the—the draft was still in effect—and the choices were to continue my education, at the time, or to be drafted, or to sign up for the service, uh, of my choice, and at the time, I picked that choice to be in the United States Navy. I didn’t realize, at the time, it would be a career choice, uh, but I enjoyed my early years in the service, such that I decided to stick around.
Van Zandt
Okay. So tell me more about, um, what impacted your decision to stick around.
Sloane
Well, I had a great first assignment. I came out of college at about 22 years old, uh—maybe even younger, at the time, and, uh, I was assigned to a ship called the USS Rockbridge—hull number APA-228, and that was a, uh—an amphibious troupe transport from the World War II era. Uh, the mission of the ship was to embark Marines—about 800 Marines—and associated cargo, and land on the shore in amphibious landings, and, uh, the, uh, manning of that ship—the Ward Room—if you will, the “Officer Car”—was made up with a lot of, uh, old timers, uh—warrants, mustangs as department heads. People who had been former enlisted[?], came up in the ranks, and they were sort of like—I don’t want to classify them as grandfatherly types—but they were very, uh, mature in there service, and, uh, the Commanding Officers of the ship when I was there, under which I had three Commanding Officers, were also senior Navy Captains who were on their way to major command and, uh, come[sic] out of aviation, and were going to head to larger ships, if you will. So again, they were very self-confident individuals, very accomplished people, and the younger officers, like myself, were all fresh, wet-behind-the-ears college kids, and so it was a very, very, um, engaging environment, um, a very learning environment, while, obviously, there’s a lot of pressure you to anything you do in that Navy environment.
It was such that you—you felt that you was learning, you felt like you were being mentored, uh, and I came away from that tour, uh, very, very, uh, personally fulfilled and—and feeling good about what I was doing. The sense of responsibility, that you got, which has always been, uh, something the Navy has played on for young beginners—that we’re going to give you, uh, tremendous responsibility that your peers, who were out working at Macy’s or selling insurance aren’t going to experience for a long, long time, and I found that to be true, because, uh, they give you things to do, and say, “Here’s a job. Go do it.” And they had enough faith in you to let you do it—to watch you close enough, so they wouldn’t let you mess up too bad. So it was a very, very good experience, as I look back on it over the years. I think that was principally what made me feel comfortable about staying in the Navy.
Van Zandt
You mentioned that you got this, uh, officer start before you did this first duty assignment through, um, Officer Candidate School, or OCS?
Sloane
Correct.
Van Zandt
Could you tell me a little bit about, um, what that experience is like?
Sloane
Well, talk about the shock of your life. You come out of a university, a—very, uh, loving home, uh, environment, as I grew up. Um, so you leave the university. Again, you’ve had a sense of what service life might be like, because of my brother’s experience, but obviously, you really don’t know exactly what you’re getting into, and I remember, at the time, there was only a ferry that crossed from the main land over to Newport, [inaudible] Island, unless you wanted to go all the way up and around, by Fall River[, Massachusetts] and Providence[, Rhode Island]. Today, they have a bridge, but I remember on that ferry, as I reported for duty to go to OCS, and looking out over the water and said, what have I done? [laughs]. That sort of thing, because I didn’t know what I was headed for, but it was also a very, uh, broadening and lightening experience, because most of my childhood and my college experience, for the most part, was very, um—I forget what the right word is—but very, uh contained.
Uh, it wasn’t broadening. It was broadening educationally and, again, growing up in New York, you have a broadened sense of what life could be like, but I had never, uh, been in an environment with people from the South, people from the West, people from all sorts of cultures, uh—that sort of thing, and now you’re thrown into a barracks environment, uh, which is not quite the same as a college dormitory or fraternity house. Um, you’re—you’re being asked to do things in a very regimented way, uh, being held very, very responsible and accountable for the most minute, uh, daily life, uh, activities, and so while it wasn’t a shock, uh, it was certainly different. and it is a crash course, so your—things that, uh, people in NROTC [Naval Reserve Officers Training Corps] programs or Academy programs are getting years and years of time to, uh, uh acculture[sic] to and learn. You’re getting a crash course. It’s not that—it wasn’t that challenging or difficult, but you certainly had pay attention, and again, aside from the academics, the military side, um—it was just an enlightening experience. Mostly, in—in the exposure to people of different cultures, uh, uh, than ever before.
Van Zandt
Graduation day.
Sloane
Wow. You know, the funny thing was, uh, I can’t remember exactly—the whole program was about four months, and, uh, at about maybe three weeks before you graduate, uh, you get your orders, and the way you get your orders is, uh, you’re in a company of 30 men—maybe your class had a couple hundred in it, but, um—so you’re in a company of 30 men, and you get a—a message, if you will, to report to the barracks chief or the company chief at the company headquarters, and he’s going to tell you where you’re going, and I’ll never forget, he—he said—he said “Sloane, you’re going to the USS Rockbridge, APA228.” and I said, “Chief, what’s that?” [laughs].
I had no idea, because with all that indoctrination, I don’t think we ever got down into the grass as to ship types, you know? it was mostly here’s how you, uh, get from point A to point B, here’s how you do this, a lot of PT [physical training], uh, this, that, and the other thing, a lot of naval history. Uh, but I—I remember to this day, he told me where I was going, I had no idea what kind of ship it was or anything of that nature. So, uh, that was a little before graduation, but graduation day, you’re filled with pride, you have your ensign stripe[?], uh, and your off on a real, real adventure, you know? You’re glad to be leaving that environment, but you’re full of apprehension, because now, you’re going to be really entering the workforce, sort of to speak.
Van Zandt
‘Kay. So you’re trained as a—a new ensign. What was your actual job as a new ensign?
Sloane
Well, my first job, again, was in the engineering department, and I was the [Repair] Division Officer for the repair division. The Division Officer—you’re in charge of a group of enlisted men and—with a specific function—and their job was metalsmith and woodworking, if you will, on this ship. So, um, they were doing all that type of work. It was a small group. Uh, I was sort of fortunate and respected, instead of being put immediately in charge of a large division, which might’ve been at least 30 men or 40 men. It was small, compact.
Again, a lot of good leadership, you know? It’s always the Chief Petty Officer in the Navy who really knows what’s going on and runs the Navy. and especially when you’re brand new, I mean, you—even with what little book-learning you got, you have not a great idea on the technical aspects of what the people are doing, you’re worried about all the different aspects of being able to stand the watch, drive a ship, um, do your daily duties, oversee the people who are working for you—or working with you, uh,—that sort of thing, and again, it was a lot of—I don’t want to use the word “old timers”—but Senior Chief Petty Officers, uh, who had a lot of experience and confidence in their work, um, middle-grade Petty Officers. It was a good bunch. It was the right place for me to go for a start, because I had a lot of support from below.
Van Zandt
Okay. Um, your early assignments—it sounds like you had a lot of on-the-job training, do you think it is because it was the Vietnam [War] era?
Sloane
Well, uh, if you’re talking about the first ship, absolutely, you know? I mean, uh, at the time, a lot of people were going over to Vietnam. Uh, my second tour duty was in Vietnam, and by the time I have spent about two and a half years on that ship, I had, uh, changed jobs on the ship. I was, uh, made gunnery officer on that ship, which was—gave me an opportunity to learn another aspect of, uh, ship ward responsibility and duties, and so again, when I, uh, finished up that tour in about two in a half years, uh, I was very confident. I had, uh, been promoted one grade from ensign to Lieutenant Junior grade. Very proud, and, uh, left that ship with a great deal of confidence, I think.
Van Zandt
Great. Um, can you tell me a little about your Vietnam experience?
Sloane
I [laughs]…
Van Zandt
As much as you can.
Sloane
Well, uh, absolutely. Um, Funny thing is, um: I—I mentioned earlier that I worked with these great people, you know? Uh, uh, as many warrants and LDOs [limited duty officers] who had maturity, a lot of experience, um, and how I got to Vietnam, I always thought was an interesting story. The Navy Bureau of Naval Personnel put out a newsletter about every month that they—a hard copy paper newsletter, and they went to every ship, and it—it really talked about what assignments were available to different people and different grade, what was happening in the personnel management area, um, and they came out with an article that said they were looking for Lieutenants Junior grade to be the Commanding Officers of LSTs, uh— “Landing Ship Tanks” —uh, to serve as mother ships for river patrol boats in Vietnam. So these LSTS would be at the mouths of the river, they would be the mother ship for 10 or 20 small river patrol boats, and they wanted Lieutenant JGs [Junior Grade] to be, uh, XOs. They wanted them to be XOs—Executive Officers, and I read that article, and, uh, my boss, at the time, was a Lieutenant, uh—LDO—an “old salt,” who I greatly admired, and he read that article. They were looking for Lieutenants to be Commanding Officers—Lieutenant JGs was to XOs to these LSTs, and he reads this article, and he says—he says, “Boy, I want to be a CO of a, LST.” And he said, “Rich, come be my XO.” You know, “We’ll go together.” I’ll—he’ll be the CO and I’ll be the XO of this LST.
Well, [clears throat] to go from being a Division Officer to an Executive Officer is highly unusual. Uh, but here is an opportunity, because it fit the mold, uh, of what they were looking for in Vietnam. I said, “Absolutely.” and I immediately wrote my detailer—the guy in Washington[, D.C.] who made these assignments—and—and, uh, I said, “I want to go be an XO on an LST, just like you wrote you needed, uh—uh, JGs to be XOs on LST. I want that job.” He wrote back—[clears throat] he said—corresponded back, “You know, you’re a little too junior,” because you’re in the JG billet for a number of years, uh—JG rank. Said, “You’re a little too junior, but we have lots of other jobs available for ya in Vietnam.” I said, “Okay.” I said, “But don’t give me a desk job. I want a job where the action is.” Next thing you know, I had a letters to a river patrol section that drove little plastic boats on the rivers of the Mekong Delta. So that’s how I got there.
Van Zandt
Wow.
Sloane
Yeah, I know, and then [laughs]—and then, my boss—I don’t think he ever got the job of CO. He did—he may have gotten an LST, but I don’t know that he had one off of Vietnam. Um, I spent a year. The tour that you got was a year. It was a small outfit—maybe a hundred people, if that. Uh, Most of them were assigned to run the boats, and the others were assigned as maintenance people. Uh, there was[sic], uh, two Lieutenants and three Lieutenants Junior grade, who made the officer structure. Then you had a number of Chief Petty Officers, and a host of, UH, other enlisted personnel, who manned the boats, and we spent a year patrolling the rivers of Vietnam.
Van Zandt
What impact do you think this experience had on you?
Sloane
Well, it had a tremendous impact. Um, you know, you sad[sic] in the sense that you were at war. You were certainly, uh, aware of that. Um, I think it was Winston [Leonard Spencer- ]Churchill who said something like, “There is nothing more exhilarating than being shot at and missed.”[1] Uh, and I had that experience. Um, uh, we’ve lost a number of people from our section to combat, while I was there, and I respect—I consider myself fortunate that I—that I, uh, um, didn’t have a harrowing[?] experience that—that cost me more than it did, so to speak. Um, uh, it was interesting to be in country, in—in that environment—to meet people of Vietnam, um, in many different, uh, ways, if you will. Um, and that’s about it.
Van Zandt
Do you think, um, your time through these, uh—the last two assignments that you just described help shape your leadership style?
Sloane
Uh, yeah, I think to some degree. That’s hard to say, um, how you developed, what—what it was that caused you to develop your leadership. I think more, uh—I don’t know. I only speak for myself, but I think more it was my upbringing than anything else. There’s all sorts of leaders—different people. Some lead in fear, some lead in—in different manners, and I just think it was the way that I was brought up that really, uh, set the foundation for my leadership style. I think a lot of your style is not so much developed in those early years, but further as you go along, you get more responsibility. Certainly there was a lot of responsibility from day one at different levels, and—and very significant responsibility, but my impression was: the further along you got, the more leadership experience you had. You had the opportunity to observe other leaders, you know? The—the common phrase, as well, eh, you know; “I’m not going to do it like he did it when I grow up.” That sort of thing. So, uh, how you developed it is—is a, in my opinion—for me, at least, is a combination of a lot of things: my personal upbringing, the experiences that I had as you climb that ladder can really shape.
Van Zandt
Thank you. What other, um, duty assignments did you take after your tour in Vietnam and prior to coming to NTC [Naval Training Center] Orlando?
Sloane
Right. I came back from Vietnam and I was, uh, selected to go what then called the “Navy Destroyers School,”[2] which was really a course to prepare you to be a department head on a destroyer-type, um, ship. Um, that was a six-month course in Newport, Rhode Island. I met my wife there, during that time period. I courted her, eh, in—in those years—that time frame. Um, Went to USS Garcia DE-1040. Home-ported out of Newport, Rhode Island, as the Weapons [Systems] Officer.
Um, from there, uh, I have to think back. I went to the USS—oh, excuse me. From there, I went to, uh, instructor duty at what was then the beginning of the Navy Surface Warfare Officers School and served as an instructor to ensigns, who were coming from their commissioning source before they were going to surface ships, and, uh, that was about three-year tour in Newport, and then I went to USS Milwaukee AOR-2—I think it was. Homeport in Norfolk, Virginia, a multiproduct ship, uh, stationed out of Norfolk, Virginia. Great tour of duty, great, uh, shipmates there. Again, uh, a tremendous learning experience as a department head for the deck department. Uh, A lot of responsibility, a lot of work there. From Milwaukee, we went to shore duty in Millington, Tennessee—a little bit north of Memphis, where the Navy had its, uh, training headquarters, and, uh, I served on, uh, the staff of, uh, Naval Education and Training [Command] —technical training—in Memphis—Millington.
Uh, from there, after a short one year tour, um, I went to Hawaii, uh, to be, uh, Executive Officer on the USS Hassayampa, an oiler in, uh, Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. Another great tour. Uh, I think the, uh, thing that made my career so gratifying was the great shipmates and the leaders that I worked with over the years on these ships. From Hawaii, came back to Norfolk and served on the staff of, uh, Commander Carrier Group 8. Went to sea on aircraft carriers as a Surface Warfare Advisor, if you will—surface op[eration]s officer. Completed that tour, working for a couple of flag officers, and from there, let’s see. Where’d we go? [U.S.] Naval War College, I believe. Tour[?] in Newport, Rhode Island, at the Naval War College. A very int—interesting time, and then went to, um, command the USS Santa Barbara, uh, AE-28, out of Charleston, South Carolina. Was on board there for about two in half years, in command of the Santa Barbara. Went from there to, uh, the Executive Officer of Service Schools[sic] Command. [Naval Station] Great Lakes—very large training activity, uh, up in Great Lakes, Illinois, just north of Chicago[, Illinois], and from there, I came to Orlando, Florida, in command of the Service School Command Activity here at the Naval Training Center Orlando. So it was all in route, but we got there.
Van Zandt
That’s quite a list
Sloane
Yeah, I’ll say.
Van Zandt
Alright. This one’s about your wife. You ready for this one?
Sloane
I’m sorry? Sure.
Van Zandt
This one’s about your wife. They say in the military, you great two for one. How did you do with the family, the military, and the traveling? How did she deal[?] with that?
Sloane
Well, we were very fortunate. I’ve always felt that way. Um, my wife was ready, willing, and able for the adventure. She was a Navy nurse actually, when I met her when she was in college, and she was, uh, attending on a—a little bit of a scholarship at the end of her college tour, where, in exchange for tuition assistance, she went in the Navy as a Navy nurse, and in those days, if you became pregnant, they mustered you out, and so she was in for a little over a year in an half, until she became pregnant without first child, and had to muster out. So she had a little taste of the Navy, besides from the fact of growing up—not going up—but going to school in Newport, Rhode Island, as she did, which is where I met her, uh, she was exposed to all the Navy activity that went on in Newport, Rhode Island, at the time.
Um, so we enjoyed the Navy. Nobody enjoys leaving your family for six months at a time and Nowadays, sailors are leaving there families for even longer, but, uh, typical six-month deployment then was not something you looked forward to from a family standpoint-of-view, but she—she understood that and, uh, was a great Navy wife. You know, they say, uh, a Navy wife’s the toughest job in the Navy, and I believe it 110 percent, and our children, uh, my wife, and I always—we moved around a lot, you know? And describing where I went, it was here, there. We came back a couple times, but it was never back to back tours in the same town, and unlike some, who said, “Oh, I don’t want to leave Norfolk,” or “I gotta stay in San Diego[, California].” We were always up for that adventure, and after a year or two went by, the kids were always saying, “Where are we going next?” That sort of thing. Got a little tougher when they got to the junior high/high school age, but up ‘til then, they were always ready, willing, and able to—“Let’s find a new place to go.” And, uh, that was pretty good. I’d always come home, after having spoken with the detailer, getting the word on where we were going. Uh, I’d call home and say, “Honey, Are you sitting down?” And she knew that was the signal [laughs] that we were going somewhere. Yep.
Van Zandt
Good. Um, well, what did you know about the region of Orlando and the military here?
Sloane
I’m sorry.
Van Zandt
What did you know about the region of Orlando?
Sloane
Well, I didn’t know anything about it expect that they had a mirror of activity of Great Lakes on a smaller scale. Uh, Navy training activity, smaller in numbers, but the mission was basically the same, and I lobbied to get that job of Commanding Officer. I say lobbied. You know, I—you talked to your detailer and say “Hey. I hear there’s a job opening in Orlando. Uh, it seems to fit. I’m training in education subspecialist. I’ve done the tour as Executive Officer here. Um, and I hear the Commanding Officer tour for the Service School Command is open there.” I was fortunate to get that assignment, and again, uh, the only, uh—the biggest impression was if the kids were a little, uh, anxious in moving in that point in time, because they were in junior high [school] and getting little more into socializing. Uh, When I told them that we’d probably have a pool at the house, that settled the deal [laughs]. “Let’s go.” They were ready to pack and move—move down here. So I didn’t know much about it. That was it. Um, that was it.
Van Zandt
How long were you here at NTC Orlando?
Sloane
Well, we got here in 1988, and I retired from that job in 1991. So…
Van Zandt
Okay.
Sloane
That was the tour.
Van Zandt
Um, what were your overall impressions of the recruits and their training, during that time down [inaudible] your time at the base?
Sloane
Oh, I thought it was terrific. You know, I was—really, there were three activities. You had the Recruit Training Center, You had the Nuclear Power School, and you had Service Schools Command. So, uh, while we did have some interaction in between all those activities, um, the sailors that—that I was seeing, uh, who were coming, from the most part, out of boot camp—uh, We did have some coming to advanced schools, uh, from the fleet, but the majority of them are coming right out of boot camp—uh, just top quality, you know?
People have said that the quality of our servicemen and women today are—is better than ever, and they have said it for years and years, and I firmly believe it. A lot of people who say, “Ah, it’s not like the old Navy,” and they talk about things like uniforms and discipline, which is always important, but the, uh, quality, the intellect, uh, the upbringing—if you will—uh, of the people that[sic] are coming into the service, I thought was terrific, and I saw that throughout my career. You know, you’re in that moving stream, so you don’t always see the difference, but when you think about it, and you stop and you think, and you say, Look at the quality of the Electronic Technicians School, who are going through Torpedoman [Mate] School—some of these highly technical courses—You have to really, you know, learn some significant stuff or hone their skills. Um, we had top-quality people.
Van Zandt
Alright. Um, Daily life for your, uh, Navy recruits and your Navy sailors, that[sic] are there training for the schools—what was it like?
Sloane
Well, again, the people that[sic] were in my school, for the most part, were brand new, coming from out of 8-12 weeks of Recruit Training Center. So you still had to be aware of their conduct more off the base than on the base. Remember, these are young people who been cooped up at recruit training, where they didn’t get any liberty for months on end, if you will. Now, they’ve been cut loose, so to speak. Uh, yes[?], you go to class, but you had your weekends off, sort of thing.
I think, on the whole, uh, and really across the board, we had very few discipline problems—things of that nature. Again, in a—in an organization that size, deal with that demographic, there will be individuals who really weren’t suited for the service, or who had a momentary lapse in judgment, shall we say, and so that’s typical in any large organization. I don’t think it—it’s not so visible in civilian—civilian life, you know? If some fella who’s working on the line in General Motors [Company] goes out and gets arrested for DUI [Driving Under the Influence], or something like that, General Motors doesn’t really hold him to task. Well, the military’s a little different on how it, uh, wants its people to represent the organization.
Van Zandt
Okay. Uh,couple of, uh, questions here, uh, for those who—who don’t know. Could you explain to us what the Grinder was?
Sloane
What the what?
Van Zandt
The Grinder was.
Sloane
Oh, the Grinder [laughs]. Well, I got very familiar with the Grinder at OCS, because the Grinder was where you—in OCS, you walked off punishment. I mean, it was the parade ground, and it was usually a paved a, uh—asphalt, uh, parade ground, uh, on which you’d have formal parades, but OCS—if you—if you didn’t make your bed right, or there was a dust bunny loose, or if your shoes weren’t shined, uh, when the other folks were going on liberty on Saturday, you were out there marching for two or three hours. Uh, And again, at—at boot camp, the Grinder was, again, the place where graduation was held, but again, uh, conduct infractions were marched off often times.
Van Zandt
Alright, and, um, the purpose of the USS Blue Jacket?
Sloane
Yeah, the Blue Jacket was, uh, a wooden replica, if you will, of a ship—a destroyer-type ship, and it had—internally, it had classrooms. Externally, it had fittings that you would find on, uh, a real ship. a life boat, or a whale boat, if you will, that could be lowered, raised, chalks, and bits, and lines, anchor chain, and halyards, and all the things that a sailor in—in the field of seamanship might encounter on a real ship, and so, uh, they can go on board that—that trainer, um, uh, and, uh, do the things that they would be asked to do out in the fleet, and they could also hold classes there. Uh, it was a—a fixture, if you will. A lot of people were sad to see it go.
Van Zandt
Okay. What kind of social life existed among the recruits on the base through the MWR—Morale, Welfare, and Recreation?
Sloane
Right. Uh, the interesting fact is: when I retired from the Navy in 1991, uh, the first position I took as a civilian was director of the USO [United Service Organization], here in Central Florida, Which, in a sense, was responsible a little bit for the MWR. I mean, the base had its own MWR organization, which was really the root of it. Uh, when I was on active duty, I personally took advantage of it. They had great gym, and weights, and facilities, and pool—all those sorts of things that you would want on the base. They had opportunities for sailors to buy tickets to local events and theme parks—uh, the typical Morale, Welfare and Rec, uh, support system. The USO was there also, primarily to support, uh, the families that came to see the recruits graduate every week at—at, uh, the Naval Training Center, but, uh, the MWR ran some great programs. They always were there. I remember the people who were—for the most part, many were retired military who were running the programs. They had a golf course, which was, uh, one of the premiere, I think, spots in town, to play golf for the retired Navy community and active duty when they were on liberty. There was also a smaller course down by, uh—by the [McCoy] Air Force Base, or was then a civilian airport. They had a small place down there. They had camping gear you could check out. Um, Just, really great support. I think that was an asset for this—this community—the Navy community.
Van Zandt
Okay. Um, did they have a local base newspaper?
Sloane
They did have a local base newspaper, and for the life of me, I’d have to think. I’d have to wake up at 3 in the morning to remember the name of it. I think it was The Navigator or something like that, and the fella named Jim Allen ran it, when I was there. He was sort of the—the editor. Uh, a great asset. I think it came out once a week, but Again, it covered the news, and all the good news, and, uh, that sort of thing. I—I got very familiar with the paper. I always wanted to make sure they—that if my activity had something to promote, it was in there, and it—they did a great job. It was a great asset.
Van Zandt
‘Kay. After basic training, what other types of schools did you guys offer here at NTC?
Sloane
Right. Well, Service School Command had four, uh, ratings, if you will—trade—Trade skills that they trained to. Uh, one was electronics technician, one was torpedoman, uh, one was quartermaster, and the other was signalman. So again we did that, and Nuclear Power School—they had two different, uh, schools, if you will: Nuclear Power A School, and I can’t for the life of me recall what the other division was called, but it was sort of like a lower division and an upper division, and their training, um—it went up to a lot of the skills and requirements of operating nuclear power plants. Uh, they had a lot of senior officers, who would go into command of nuclear powered ships, who went through that program. Very, very, uh, effective training program.
Van Zandt
Alright, alright[?]. Um, did you have any shore maintenance that was done here? Did anything get sent back to have work done here locally for work done…
Sloane
You know…
Van Zandt
From the ships?
Sloane
I don’t believe that we did. I think, um, most of any maintenance that went on was supporting, uh, what was happening at the base, uh—that sort of thing, but it wasn’t like equipment was coming back from the fleet
Van Zandt
Yeah[?].
Sloane
For maintenance.
Van Zand
Mmhmm.
Sloane
Because that was all done at the fleet site’s shore locations, if you will.
Van Zandt
What about airbases? Uh, ‘cause we have airbases here. Were we doing any work for the airbase maintenance?
Sloane
No, again, the Navy, um—a lot of that air training was done in Memphis, where a lot of the air raidings were done in Millington, if you will.
Van Zandt
Mmhmm.
Sloane
Again, um, if you’re talking about, like, [Naval Air Station] Jacksonville, which had a Naval Air Station up there and added their own—their facilities up there. So we really weren’t training aviation raidings.
Van Zandt
So our airbases here had been pretty much downgraded?
Sloane
Um…
Van Zandt
The old airbases?
Sloane
Well, Naval Air Station Sanford became the Orlando-Sanford…
Van Zandt
[inaudible]?
Sloane
Uh, International, uh, Airport. Um, uh, the Orlando International Airport was McCoy Air Force Base. Um, and, um, it’s always, uh, enjoyable when I drive down there and have a moment to scoot in by where the old [Boeing] B-52 [Stratofortress] is parked.[3] I think so many people in this community don’t know it’s there, haven’t had the opportunity to go down there where you can walk right up to it and kick the tires on this gigantic airplane. Up in, uh, Orlando-Sanford—which I’m sure the locals don’t know about—uh, there was a small civilian community, uh, that, uh decided to refurbish a [North American RA-5C] Vigilante, an A-5 aircraft, which is on display, uh, at the entrance to the airport up there. My wife and I had occasion to work with that committee and help, uh, put it in place, and, uh, that’s—that’s a sight, I’ll tell ya, and they’re working on refurbishing other aircraft for display up there.
Van Zandt
Great[?].
Sloane
Yeah.
Van Zandt
Now, I know we had Tactical Air Command and Army Air Force[s] Training Command here, at one time. Did you have an occasion to work on any joint exercises with them?
Sloane
No, that was way before my time.
Van Zandt
Okay.
Sloane
That was when they wore the leather helmets.
Van Zandt
[laughs].
Sloane
[laughs].
Van Zandt
They have—the do still have the simulator training and stuff that goes on here with the [U.S.] Joint Forces [Command]? Did you…
Sloane
Well, the, uh…
Van Zandt
Participate in any of that?
Sloane
The Navy—the, um, Naval Air Warfare Training Center [Systems Division]…[4]
Van Zandt
Mmhmm.
Sloane
Here in Orlando, is part of the Research Park activity, the military’s presence, uh, joint services are there, mostly contracting for, uh, training and simulation work. That’s why all of these defense contractors have set up shop here in Orlando, so that they can have close act[sic]—access to those folks, but there’s a lot of activity taking on—taking in that area, right here in Orlando. Very important to the community.
Van Zandt
Right. I know the, uh, base has tied to developing technology and simulations. Were you involved in any of the future simulation exercises that were currently…
Sloane
No, really…
Van Zandt
Conducted by the military?
Sloane
That all used to be located at the Naval Training Center, and, of course, as it expanded, uh, I remember—I can’t tell you the exact year, but it was when I was in service here that they built the [Luis] De Florez Center, here in the Research Park, and moved that operation out there, and grew it, and had just a tremendous expansion of not only that joint service activity out there, but again , the growth in the Research Park of defense contractors who have come here to Orlando, but I did not work directly with the training and simulation activities here.
Van Zandt
Okay. Thank you. Um, what’s the hardest thing you remember doing while you were, um, a Commander at the NTC?
Sloane
Pushups.
Van Zandt
Pushups? [laughs].
Sloane
[laughs] Yeah, well, you, um—I think “hardest” is a tough word. When you say “hardest,” uh, you know, I—I’ll change it over to what was the most, uh, difficult, uh, and that was the discipline. Um, Having to, uh, work with young people, who, again, had a lapse in—in judgment and came before you, because of some infraction—some minor, some not so minor, but it was always, I say, a little disappointment—maybe a little heartfelt, because it—in the back, you’ll say to yourself, uh, This youngster can do better. You’ve tried to provide them and your team to[?] guidance. Everybody makes a mistake, once in a while, and—and while there were those who, you know, were more than willing to atone for their sins, so to speak, and get back on track. Eh, there was the rare exception who was not the right person for the service and you had to ask them to leave, and, uh, I think—so when you say what was the “hardest,” it was that. You felt like to some degree, you failed. Now, some degree you—you can’t change some people—that sort of thing. So that was probably the most difficult, really.
Van Zandt
Alright. From the most difficult, when did you feel the most proud at NTC?
Sloane
Well, I think, um, every time you had a graduation, you know? Uh, every time you set sailor from your school out to the fleet, and you felt that they were—your team had prepared them, uh, very well to do the job, and that they would go out, and the people in fleet were going to look back and say, “Now, that sailor came from NTC Orlando. He or she was trained right.”
Van Zandt
Okay. Um, is there a particular story, um, from your time at the NTC that you’ll never forget?
Sloane
Oh, there’s a million of them. A million of them. We used to—we had a lot of fun. I mean, if you don’t have fun—that’s not to say that every day was a good day, uh, but if you don’t come away, uh, with a balance sheet that says you had more fun than not, you’re probably either not doing it right or don’t belong there and, uh,every year, uh, the, uh, Navy-Marine Corps Relief Society would hold a fund drive. Navy-Marine Corps Relief Society is just what it sounds. It’s a[sic] organization—civilian organization—that, uh, provides release services for men and women in the Navy and the Marines who have had hardship. Whether it’s a house fire, a death in the family, some serious illness, they—they’re there to support with finances and services, if[?] necessary.
So every year they had a fund drive Throughout the Navy, and our little piece at the Navy Training Center broke down the individual commands, and what we did, for the time that I was there, we had a little carnival, or a cookout, or whatever every year in support of that, and my wife and I would put on a skit every year. So we did about three skits, during the time I was there, and [laughs]—and, uh, let’s see if I can remember them in the right order. One year, we did, uh a sk—it wasn’t a skit, but it was a song called “Lydia and the Tattooed Lady,” which [Julius] “Groucho” [Henry] Marx made famous, and I dressed up as Lydia the Tattooed Lady. My wife dressed up as Groucho Marx. The Navy band came and played the music.
Van Zandt
[laughs].
Sloane
And out we went and did it for the crowd, and then one year, we did, uh, from, uh, South Pacific, uh—uh, the number “Honey Bun,” where—if you’re not familiar with it—this, um, senior sailor gets dressed up in a grass skirt and, um—and, um, uh, the Navy nurse dresses up as a sailor and sings about, uh, his girlfriend—his honey bun. So I dressed up in the grass skirt, and my wife dressed up in the sailor suit, and sang the song, and the Navy band played along, and then the last year we did, uh, “Get Me to the Church on Time” from My Fair Lady. So there I was in—in bridal regalia and she was, uh, dressed up as a, uh, groom going to the church, and we had great fun doing that. It made—let’s just say it made the base newspaper [laughs].
Van Zandt
That sounds wonderful.
Sloane
Yeah.
Van Zandt
Um, were there any other areas of the base that were of particular importance to you or the sailors?
Sloane
Well, one of things, you—you know, everything was important, whether it was the commissary or what have you, but I remember Lake Baldwin, you know, which Baldwin Park is named after, if you will, and so many of the, uh, people who had the opportunity would go out there and fish on Lake Baldwin, or be at one of the clubs, whether it was the enlisted club or officer’s club, which looked out on Lake Baldwin. It was sort of, um, just the center of things, not necessarily geographically, but, uh, when you drove home, you went by it. That sort of thing. It was always there. The sort of Place a lot of people, uh, looked forward to seeing, or recreating on, what have you. The Maple Hospital overlooked Lake Baldwin. The golf course was off of Lake Baldwin. Uh, that sort of thing I remember very much.
Van Zandt
Um, I know what you did when you left the Navy. You went to work for the USO. Do you recall the day your service ended?
Sloane
The day my service ended? Yeah. Well, you know, like most senior people in the service, they have some sort of retirement ceremony for you. Change of command is what it really was, where, um, uh—a good friend of mine, uh, Captain Harry Smith—U.S. Navy retired, still here in Central Florida, uh,—relieved me of that job, and that was a very emotional day. It may not have be the—my last day—maybe it was the last day. Uh, it was just, uh, a very emotional time for me, um, in concluding that service, and reflecting back on all the years of service, all the assignments, the family, uh that sort of thing. So that’s my reflection on my last day, if you will
Van Zandt
Have you kept in touch with people from the Navy?
Sloane
Oh, absolutely. Um, [laughs] there’s one warrant officer, uh, who served with me in Vietnam. He was the maintenance officer for the river section, and he, uh, sort of, uh, made it his business to stay in touch with, uh, those of us who were still around, and so, um, an email contact with him. As I said, Captain Smith, who relieved me of the Naval Training Service School Command job, um, was a good personal friend here. Dave Arms, retired Navy Captain, who was Commanding Officer of the [U.S.] Naval Reserve Center here in Orlando for a while, uh—still here, and, uh, we stay in touch. Um, you hear from some people every once in a while. One of the most poignant things I recall, uh, is: many, many, years went by, uh, after I had left Vietnam, and as I said, we lost a couple of people in our section, and I, over the years, received just a handful of correspondence from, uh, relatives of the people we lost, um, asking about them, and I responded to those people, and that was, in a way, staying in touch.
Van Zandt
Was that hard?
Sloane
Oh, it—well, it was hard on—it wasn’t hard. Uh, I was glad to hear from them and to be able to tell them that, uh, their relative had served honorably.
Van Zandt
Um, what values or characteristics do you believe that the Navy made, um—that instilled in you a great impression for the rest of your life?
Sloane
Well, I think discipline, and I—I mean that in the finest sense of the word. Organization, uh, good order, wanting to see things in the right place, um, making decisions, you know—right or wrong. Somebody’s gotta make that decision. Uh, working with others towards a common goal—that sort of thing.
Van Zandt
Your lasting legacy with the, um, NTC in Orlando and the Navy’s legacy, um, in Central Florida—what do you think, um, is the lasting legacy in Orlando?
Sloane
Well, I think the lasting legacy [sniffs] is a couple of different things. One is: people, like myself, who are here and remain here, who chose to stay for many different reasons. Uh, but we have a tremendous veterans’ population here. People who served here and came back—I see a lot of that up in Sanford. You know, people—there’s a lot of, um, people who don’t, uh, know about the Naval Air Station Sanford, and, uh—and I had the opportunity to meet a lot of them during the restoration of the vigilante aircraft. Boy, they came out of the woodwork, um, for that, and so that’s one, uh—one thing. I think what we’re doing at—at, um, Baldwin Park, with the Lone Sailor Memorial [Project] is a great, great thing. Uh, that will stand forever and, uh, when generations go by, people will still know that there was a Naval Training Center activity here, hundreds and thousands of young men and women passed through here in service to their nation. Um, you can’t do more than that.
Van Zandt
How do you think that the former Navy personnel would like to see or reminded, um, at the memorial?
Sloane
Well, I think that the Lone Sailor Memorial is a very, very appropriate, uh, recognition of what took place here over the years. I think, uh, there’s so much pride in—in veterans. I don’t care whether they did 20 years or a four-year hitch in the Navy. I have rarely spoken to an individual who served, especially in the Navy, uh, who didn’t come away saying “It was a good experience for me.” That sort of thing.
Van Zandt
Okay. Um, when we’re looking at, uh, designing the [Blue Jacket] Park, what do you think they would like to see at the park?
Sloane
Oh, nautical—Things of the nautical nature. I remember, when I [laughs] was, uh—had command at the Naval Training Center, and one of things, I think—my recollection of up at the Great Lakes is the—by—by virtue of the fact that it was a very, uh—I don’t want to use “old” in the wrong word—but it had been there for…
Van Zandt
[laughs].
Sloane
Since 1903,[5] I think. They had accumulated a lot of maybe history there. Whether it was an anchor, or a gun, or what have you, and so as you walked around that base, if you will, a [inaudible] you saw a lot of these things And You knew you were at a military facility or a naval facility, and when I came to Orlando, one of things I asked my, uh, team to do was to bring some of those Navy artifacts to—to our activity, and I’ll never forget, uh, we brought two big—what we call “24-inch searchlights”—no longer in use in the fleet, but these, uh—If you see the movies and you see the big arc lights things searching for planes in the sky, and I, uh—I charged one of our officers. Uh, I said, uh, you know, “Get in touch with the—the old shipyards, who[sic] have this stuff in excess, and let’s see if we can’t get one.” They did. They brought it and it was mounted in front of the school. they got a, uh, uh, four-barrel—I think it was a 4-barrell—a 40-millimeter gun mount brought it down and got it there, and that was—when the base was closed, I think they transferred it, to my recollection, to the, uh, Oviedo High School and JROTC [Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps] unit, and they may still be there. I haven’t been in the back lot for a while.
So I think—and I remember that, uh, the torpedo—and it was a very strong World War II torpedo CO—submarine community here in Orlando, and I remember over at, eh, um—I don’t—it wasn’t near the USO, but it was somewhere over there in that vicinity, near the RTC [Recruit Training Center Orlando]. They had got these old World War II torpedoes and put them on display, and so I think, eh, you know, any of those type materials that can be brought, appropriately placed in and around Blue Jacket Park, uh, would really be a great reminder of, uh, the service that these people gave to their country.
Van Zandt
Thank you.
Sloane
Mmhmm.
Van Zandt
You’ve exhausted my list. Is there anything else you’d like to share with me?
Sloane
Have a great Navy Day.
Van Zandt
Aw.
Sloane
[laughs].
Van Zandt
Thank you so much
Sloane
You’re welcome.
Van Zandt
I appreciate your time.
Sloane
My pleasure.
Van Zandt
I’m ready to stop recording.
[1] Correction: “There is nothing more exhilarating than to be shot at with no result.”
[2] Correction: Naval Destroyers School.
[3] B-52 Memorial Park.
[4] Correction: Naval Air Warfare Center Training Systems Division (NAWCTSD).
[5] Correction: Naval Station Great Lakes was approved in 1904 and dedicated in 1911.