Parke
Alright. Good morning. Um, my name is Erin Parke and today I will be interviewing Mr. Hal McIntosh. Today is, uh, March 16th, 2015, and—alright. Um, Hal, can you tell me a little bit about like your early life? Where you grew up, um, if you had brothers and sisters, anything like that?
McIntosh
Well, I grew up in—in Detroit, Michigan, and, uh, I had, uh, uh, older brother—two older brothers and an older sister. I was the…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Baby of the...
Parke
Baby.
McIntosh
Family, and, uh, apparently, my art interest started very early.
Parke
Nice.
McIntosh
My, uh, mother said that, when I was five, I was doing caricatures
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Of my little friends.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
She could recognize who they were.
Parke
Oh, that’s amazing.
McIntosh
I was five years old, and as the years went by—my early years—really early years—my parents didn’t try to rush me into…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Arts, uh, teachers…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Or anything like that. They just saw that I had any materials that I needed, but, uh, they never tried to force me to study, you know, when I was young.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
They just let me alone because that was the only thing I wanted to do…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
As a kid.
Parke
[clears throat].
McIntosh
And, uh—so, uh, I was fortunate, in that respect. A lot of the parents that I’ve talked to in later years that had, uh, children that are…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Artistic, and they say, “Oh, what am I going to do? I’ve gotta…”
Parke
Yep.
McIntosh
“Send them somewhere to study.” I said…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
“Well,” you know, “Don’t rush them into—don’t overdo your…”
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
“You’re pushing them, because that’ll turn them right off., uh, just be—do what you can.”
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
“Cooperate, but don’t make a big deal out of it.”
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And if they’re really gonna do something in their lifetime—what—whatever…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Uh…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Kind of, uh, occ—occupation…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
They might end up, sometimes those interests—interests start when kids are very young.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Sometimes you don’t—you might have a…
Parke
Find out later on…
McIntosh
[inaudible] degree in engineering, and—and you end up, uh, doing something…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Totally different [laughs].
Parke
Yeah [laughs].
McIntosh
I was, uh, fortunate enough to know all my life what I wanted to do.
Parke
That’s amazing, and it’s nice that your family was so supportive. That’s great.
McIntosh
Well…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
They were supportive by not…
Parke
By not pushing you.
McIntosh
Pushing.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Uh,these hysterical mothers that…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
[laughs] I’d seen in the past, uh…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
That, you know, come to me for advice, because their[sic] child is doing some drawings, and—“What’ll I do? What’ll I do?”
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Leave ‘em alone [laughs].
Parke
Yeah, so you’ve been able to make your living as an artist, uh, essentially your whole life, and that’s extremely amazing and very significant. Um, how has that been for you?
McIntosh
Well, it’s a very difficult, uh…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Situation. When you’re an artist, there’s—there’s not a lot of jobs sitting around waiting for you.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Uh, I was very fortunate, uh, in the years that I was at Rollins [College], uh, as a temporary student…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Years ago, of course, and, uh, the brother of one of this[sic] Rollins students was an artist that[sic] I met who lived in Silver Springs[, Florida].
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And, uh, I was, at that point—later on—had a master’s degree from the University of Michigan—teaching there.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And what do you do…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
You know? You don’t walk out with those credentials…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And walk into a job. Nobody’s awaiting for you.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
And, uh, this friend had some really nice portraits of—that he had stacked on the floor…
Parke
Hm.
McIntosh
Against the wall. He was a landscape painter, and I said, “I didn’t know you did portraits,” and he said, “Well, I started with Jerry Farnsworth on Cape Cod[, Massachusetts].” He’s quite a prominent…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
American portrait painter, and he said—he said, “Why don’t you, uh, write Jerry Farnsworth and see if you can get a job as his assistant.”
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
“Learn how to do really commercial portraits, and, uh, that way you might be able to make a living…”
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
“To start out with,” and I did so, and…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, was accepted with my credentials.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Uh, didn’t even have a car…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
At that time [laughs].
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
I got off the bus in North Truro, Massachusetts, and was directed how to walk to the professor’s house, and, uh, Jerry Farnsworth and Helen Sawyer were, uh, uh, married, and she was a well-known, uh, artist.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And taught in the school, and, uh, this was basically, uh, a school, uh—portraiture school.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Minor landscape work—‘cause she taught and he taught the, uh—the, uh, portrait work. I was with him for five years.
Parke
Wow.
McIntosh
He had another school in Sarasota[, Florida].
Parke
Okay.
McIntosh
Uh, and, uh, Siesta Key[, Florida] [inaudible].
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And, uh, uh, I was down there during the winter.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
I worked in a hotel.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
I was busboy, waiter…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Several other jobs—a hotel on the beach—and went to school and taught with him in—in mornings, and that exposure, uh, through five years…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
With him really…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Got me so I was able to make some money doing portraits.
Parke
Nice.
McIntosh
And I had, uh—uh, this hotel I was working in part-time, after the morning school sessions, someone saw my work there and recommended me—unknown to myself, uh…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
To the board of directors of, uh, an art museum…
Parke
Wow.
McIntosh
Up in Virginia.
Parke
Mmhmm [clears throat].
McIntosh
And later on, I was accepted, became director of the museum there for five years, but, uh, those accidental things that happen.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
You know? You meet someone…
Parke
Yep.
McIntosh
Who’s done portraits, and, uh—for three years, I did portraits, uh, in Provincetown, Massachusetts…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, on the street…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Let’s say, uh, I had a studio…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
In a building that was on—right on the Commercial Street there, but at night, I had a display outside and people would book portrait[sic] for their children and stuff.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Pastel portraits, uh, done for $10…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Uh, in a matte and in a bag in 45 minutes. Uh…
Parke
That’s so quick [laughs].
McIntosh
[inaudible]. It was—it was a shock to get—to have to start that kind of a routine…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
But I got used to it, and…
Parke
[clears throat].
McIntosh
Uh,I did six to eight portraits a day…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
For the whole summer, ‘cause I had summers off, uh, from teaching, and, uh, that led—all those portraits I did—hundreds of them…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Literally, I, uh—for three years.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Eight—eight days a week—seven days a week.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Uh, so I had a—a record of lots of portraits in my…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Career. Now, those $10 [laughs] portraits…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Would be $60 [laughs] portraits.
Parke
Yeah, exactly.
McIntosh
[inaudible] at the time, but believe it or not, I bought my beach house on Cape Cod…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
With the money from—just from those…
Parke
Wow.
McIntosh
$10 portraits.
Parke
Wow.
McIntosh
And, uh, as I was saving all that money…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
In cash, uh, in a safe deposit box to go to Japan.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
And this house came up for sale on Cape Cod on the beach, and I opted to buy this house…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
With that money, and I got to Japan later on in years.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Uh, had a wonderful experience in Japan, which is another story.
Parke
[laughs] So I know that you have a true love for Cape Cod. Um, what drew you here to Winter Park[, Florida]?
McIntosh
Uh, my, uh—that’s a story that starts in Sanford[, Florida]. My sister and her husband were stationed—he was stationed in Sanford at the…
Parke
Okay.
McIntosh
Navy base there, at that time.
Parke
Oh, okay.
McIntosh
And, uh, I came down for part of my high school and lived with them in Sanford. Uh, they had an old house on the lake, right opposite the airport…
Parke
Okay.
McIntosh
So the planes were taking off…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Over the house, and, uh, uh, they decided, after, uh, he left the Navy, uh, to stay
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, in Florida, because their son was, uh, a young son…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And was doing better health-wise in Florida…
Parke
Okay.
McIntosh
For some reason. I don’t know what…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
But they decided to stay here.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
And, uh, he, uh—they had a house and[?]—rented a house, right on the highway in[?]—across from Lily Lake…
Parke
Okay.
McIntosh
In, uh—in Winter Park.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Anyhow, uh, families tend to…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Follow families.
Parke
Yes, they do.
McIntosh
And, eventually, my parents…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Moved down to Florida, because…
Parke
Okay.
McIntosh
My sister and her husband were…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Settled there, and, uh, later on, my brother—older brother—moved to Florida, and, uh, my other brother moved to Florida.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
[laughs].
Parke
So it was just gradual process.
McIntosh
Uh, so that’s a story that people in Florida that[sic] are Yankees basically, uh, “wash ashore,” as they used to call it…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
On Cape Cod [laughs].
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, they follow one another, you know?
Parke
Mmhmm, yeah.
McIntosh
It just happened at different time periods.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And I’d go back and forth when—when I was in college…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
To, uh, my parents’ house, and, uh—so we all ended up here [laughs].
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
[laughs]. And I stayed at it, and—oh, Winter Park has been very good to me.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
I had wonderful exposure on Park Avenue for many, many years
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Which a lot of artists didn’t have that, uh—that lot that the, uh, uh, wonderful, old Golden Cricket Shop had a gallery…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Right in front of the shop that was all mine…
Parke
Oh, wow.
McIntosh
For years.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
So I had like 10 paintings
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
In the gallery, and a painting in the window, but it was a gift shop…
Parke
Okay.
McIntosh
That I had that exposure to the sidewalk with—with one major painting
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And people would come in and buy…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Or see paintings there for a number of years, and, uh, right after that, I was with Center Street Gallery, who actually, uh—uh, I think they owned the property that the Cricket…
Parke
Okay.
McIntosh
Was—the Golden Cricket was on, and Hugh McCain and Je—Jeanette Genius [McKean] were friends, and—and Mr. McCain was one of my part-time professors at Rollins.
Parke
Oh, nice.
McIntosh
How they ever let me in…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Rollins? I don’t…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
I don’t know, but, uh, I was only doing art…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Art there, but then, I had exposure at the Center Street Gallery, which was actually ended up right next door…
Parke
Nice.
McIntosh
To the Golden Cricket.
Parke
Oh, okay.
McIntosh
And an almost [inaudible]—almost war situation.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Between the two of them, and, uh, after long years at Center Street Gallery and a number of shows there, uh, I went with, uh, Solarte, which was a—a shop down the avenue, uh, owned by a French gentleman and his family, and had my—I had a big show there…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And had my work on display there for several years, uh, which was another exposure on Park…
Parke
Mmhmm, yeah.
McIntosh
Avenue, and I—I lucked into things like that, but, uh…
Varty
Miller Gallery.
McIntosh
Oh, well, Miller Gallery.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
[laughs] I was with them, but they weren’t getting the kind of support from the community
Parke
Hm.
McIntosh
Winter Park was—and maybe still is—a little difficult in—for a gallery.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Really, I don’t know why, because Winter Park people have plenty of money…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
But, uh, Miller Gallery stayed only for a year or so.
Parke
Oh, okay.
McIntosh
They just weren’t…
Parke
It just wasn’t making it.
McIntosh
Making the sales.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
And they left, so I don’t consider, you know, that a long association with them.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
But, uh…
Varty
Naples[, Florida].
McIntosh
Well, Naples, [laughs] yes.
Parke
[laughs].
Varty
[laughs].
McIntosh
I had careers [laughs] in this—I don’t know whether this leads directly into Naples, but, uh…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Friends of mine, uh, on Cape Cod had a gallery, where my work was exhibited, and they were both professors, uh, in Boston[, Massachusetts].
Parke
Okay.
McIntosh
At, uh, universities there and such[?], and, uh, they did the gallery work in the summertime, and had a beautiful gallery—one of prettiest ones on that end…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Of Cape Cod, and after a few years of success in that gallery, I had several shows there. Uh, they decided to, uh, give up the teaching, made a decision…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And the gallery was doing so well, they decided to have a second gallery in Florida, and, uh, I met them in Florida, and they were in Sarasota, at that time, and they were looking there, and they—both close friends of mine, as well as handling my work…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And, uh, they kept—when[?] we were in Sarasota, they kept talking about Naples, and I said, “We’re sitting in Sarasota and you’re talking about Naples. Let’s go to Naples.”
Parke
[laughs] It’s not far from there [laughs].
McIntosh
And they wanted my advice and stuff.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And so we all went to Naples, and they ended up renting, uh, uh, space in the nicest part of Naples downtown…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And, uh, it was only a couple of years. They were so successful. Basically, the only really good gallery in Naples, at that time.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Now there are probably a hundred galleries…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
In Naples [laughs], uh, but as the years—few years—went by, they, uh, built a gallery on, uh, Fifth[?] Street—I don’t know what. The Naples Art Gallery—elegant, gorgeous, gallery.
Parke
Nice.
McIntosh
Big gallery.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
And, uh, shows, uh, really top artists.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntos
And, uh, it was the—probably one of the prettiest galleries in the country.
Parke
Wow.
McIntosh
From outside and from inside.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
It had mostly paintings, but they also—part of the gallery was elegant gifts, uh…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And antique, uh—oriental antiques…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
In a—just a side gallery, uh, but they were there for years.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
And most successful.
Parke
That’s nice.
McIntosh
And I had 24 one-man shows there.
Parke
Just there? How many have you had in total again?
McIntosh
35 [laughs].
Parke
That’s awesome [laughs].
McIntosh
Uh, but, uh, these shows were, uh, something else.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
They—actually, a one-man show only ran for a week…
Parke
Okay.
McIntosh
Which is unusual.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, people were allowed to watch them hang the show on Saturday.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And they didn’t—people did come. They wanted to see what was coming up, and whether they wanted to go to the opening on Sunday [laughs].
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
And they weren’t allowed to buy anything…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh Uh, which is unusual.
Parke
Yeah [laughs].
McIntosh
Uh, they wouldn’t let somebody buy something that was supposed to go in the show that would not be in the show.
Parke
Okay.
McIntosh
So Sunday night—are—are we getting close to the end here? You’re looking at…
Parke
I’m trying—I’m just making sure that it’s picking everything up.
McIntosh
Oh.
Parke
Sorry [laughs].
McIntosh
[laughs] Yeah, so the openings were Sunday night and this is a…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
This is a riot. Naples is very elegant. I had special clothes to wear when I had my openings, because, you know, you don’t wear pink sport coats in…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
In Winter Park. Naples is very formal, but very…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Resort-y and very rich.
Varty
Bizarre [laughs].
McIntosh
What? [laughs].
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
He—he can’t stop talking.
Parke [laughs].
McIntosh
And, uh…
Varty
Sorry.
McIntosh
The, uh—on Sunday night, people, at six o’clock…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Would line up to come into the gallery, and the doors would not open till six, and here we go again.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
As they came in—sometimes in formal clothes, because they were going out separate[?].
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, as they came in, they were not allowed to buy a painting.
Parke
Hm.
McIntosh
They could look for a half an hour, and, uh, at the end of a half an hour, they could make a bid on the painting and…
Parke
Okay.
McIntosh
So the wife—they—they would come in and they’d quickly [inaudible].
Parke
They’d find one that they loved.
McIntosh
Yeah.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
They’d see. Then on Saturday…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
So they already knew there was one they loved[?]. So the wife would park her husband…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
In front of the painting, and he would just stand in front of the painting with his arms folded blocking the painting.
Parke
Oh, my goodness.
McIntosh
So that the other Naples folks knew that they…
Parke
That that was taken.
McIntosh
So at 6:35, they would[?]—[inaudible] this—the—the wife would say, “We have that one.”
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
And—but they didn’t want, uh, people to presell from seeing the work…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
The day before or whatever—week before—and, uh, they wanted everybody that[sic] was coming to the show basically to…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
To be able to buy a painting.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And, uh, so consequently, uh, the sales were almost always right in the first couple of days…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
For the opening night, and, uh, rest of the week some of them would be out on their yachts…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
And stuff, so they didn’t want to miss these shows…
Parke Mmhmm.
McIntosh
If they looked important, and so I basically made my living, uh, in—in, uh, one week out of the year.
Parke
That[sic] amazing.
McIntosh
At a Naples show.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Uh, and if it rained on the opening night, uh, that—that put a damper on sales.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
But, uh, it worked out 24 times
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
[laughs] So…
Parke
That’s great.
McIntosh
And, uh, the gallery truly—well, it just—you’ll see the picture of it.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
It was, uh, probably one of the prettiest galleries…
Parke
Extravagant.
McIntosh
In the country. Very, very beautiful.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
These guys had good taste.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
And, uh, they handled [inaudible] Glass[?].
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Um, a lot of well-known painters from California and other parts of the country.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And[?], uh, I actually—I’ve always been interested in antiques. I bought antiques in Winter Park for them to put in their gallery.
Parke
Okay.
McIntosh
In their sales gallery—antique area there, and, uh, they didn’t have time…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
To scout antiques.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
I loved scouting antiques [laughs].
Parke
That’s nice.
McIntosh
So I would buy stuff for them, and—and they would se—sell it at the gallery…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
For 10 times what I got.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
I was getting good bargains…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
From dealers here in Winter Park and elsewhere. Uh…
Varty
Don’t forget the Blue Heron Gallery and the Cove Gallery.
McIntosh
Well, I know those were galleries on Cape Cod. I’m not going to forget them, but, uh, I exhibited at the Blue Heron Gallery and another top gallery on Cape Cod…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
For many years. Before that, the Cove Gallery., uh, so I had those two galleries on Cape Cod.
Parke
So you’ve been all over [laughs].
McIntosh
Well, you’ve gotta—when you’re painting every day…
Parke
Yeah [laughs].
McIntosh
Uh, you know, you need the exposure, and, um, just ended up being on Cape Cod, for, today, it’s six months of the year.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
At Cape Cod., uh, when I was teaching, we had shorter summers, but, uh, now, it’s half here half on Cape Cod.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Cape Cod is a fabulous place for artists.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, the light is gorgeous there for painting, and the portrait studio there, on a gray day, the light was absolutely…
Parke
Oh.
McIntosh
Gorgeous on—on the models on a gray day.
Park
[laughs].
McIntosh
Uh, uh, very cool light.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Florida has that hot light.
Parke
Yes [laughs].
McIntosh
[inaudible].
Parke
It does.
McIntosh
Well, [inaudible] it’s not just the heat it’s a harsher light…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
For a painter than Cape Cod. That’s why Cape Cod has many, many artists.
Parke
Okay. That’s interesting.
McIntosh
It’s in[?] the, uh—the, uh, most famous American painter today. Eric? [laughs].
Varty
Yes. Edward Hopper?
McIntosh
Yeah [laughs].
Varty
[inaudible]?
McIntosh
Uh…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Not…
Varty
Uh, [inaudible]?
McIntosh
Not Miligrove[?]. Probably the most famous…
Varty
Uh…
McIntosh
Uh, American painter…
Varty
[inaudible]?
McIntosh
Of—of all time…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Is, uh, Robert, uh [laughs]—Eric?
Varty
Who?
McIntosh
[laughs] Who’s the person you—what was the first name?
Varty
Oh, Edward Hopper.
McIntosh
[laughs] I’m talking and I’m forgetting as fast as I can[?].
Varty
You could see Edward Hopper’s house…
McIntosh
Yeah.
Varty
From Hal’s house on the Cape.
Parke
Oh, wow.
McIntosh
Yeah
Parke
That’s awesome [laughs].
McIntosh
And I knew Edward Hopper through the Farnsworth’s [inaudible] school.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
I went to, uh, cocktail parties with him.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
And one time Jerry Farnsworth said that, “We’re going to this party and Edward Hopper will be there, but, uh, you’ll—I’ll introduce you to him, but don’t expect him to say much…”
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
“Because he doesn’t—isn’t a big talker,” and, uh, I did meet him that night, and, uh, he was a very polite listener and wonderful. Very imposing…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Tall gentleman, but I could see their house from…
Parke
Oh, okay.
McIntosh
Down the beach on the cliff from my house, and anyhow, uh, I wasn’t a close friend of Edward Hopper’s, but we were close enough. Uh, we sat in a Christian Union Church, when they had these flea market sales of clothes and china…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And stuff, and his wife[1] and Mrs. Farnsworth were trying on…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Cheap clothing, blouses and suits…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
And coats, and…
Varty
Uh…
McIntosh
Step, uh…
Varty
[inaudible].
McIntosh
No [laughs]. They would—we would…
Varty
Mrs. Farnsworth was Helen Sawyer.
McIntosh
I’ve already made that clear.
Varty
Oh, okay. Reference her at the Morse Museum of American Art.
McIntosh
Okay. Uh, Helen Sawyer is Mrs. Farnsworth.
Parke
Oh, okay.
McIntosh
And is recognized in major museums…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
As well as Farnsworth was. Both of those, uh, couples—Farnsworth and Hopper—were both, uh, active during the [Great] Depression.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh And they were frugal.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Farnsworth had a garden where they grew their own vegetables, so they wouldn’t go to the grocery store except to buy meat
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
But they grew everything else, and they were used to—during the Depression, Jerry Farnsworth, a famous portrait painter, would make clothes out of old, uh, bags
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Flour bags that they used to have patterns on the big bags of—of flour for his wife
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And very frugal [laughs].
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
And that’s why those two wives were trying on cheap clothes at the church …
Parke
‘Cause that’s what they always knew.
McIntosh
Sale. Well, they just, you know, uh—they weren’t shoppers. [inaudible] [laughs]. Eh, uh, Eric and I would say, uh, [laughs] he—Hopper—Edward and I sat there and he would just shake his head
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Every time they came out in one of these outfits. You know, outfits for two dollars [laughs].
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
But here’s—at that time, he was a well-known painter.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Uh, extremely well-known.Now he’s considered one of the top American painters
Parke
Mmhmm, yeah.
McIntosh
Period. Uh, [clears throat] a wonderful, wonderful man.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
His—his wife did all the talking.
Parke
[laughs] Always.
McIntosh
[laughs] I find[?] out—found out why he’s so quiet, because…
Parke
‘Cause he has a wife to make up for it [laughs].
McIntosh
She—she talked all the time [laughs].
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
That’s probably why Edward was fairly silent, but, uh—a big tall man.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Very imposing man, and, uh his work is—is fabulous.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Fabulous. Really [inaudible].
Parke
It’s beautiful. Um, can you tell me a little about your teaching philosophy? I know teaching was a big part of your life.
McIntosh
Oh, absolutely. I’ve taught for over 40—40 years [clears throat], and, uh, I think my philosophy is—basically, in teaching—is how to teach the students how to see
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And, uh, people don’t see like artists, and, uh, it takes a long time to get them to that point. I also wanted them, uh, to end, uh, up being taught and being brought out as individual painter, not as a [inaudible].
Parke
As a cookie-cutter…
McIntosh
Well…
Parke
Standard.
McIntosh
Not—not the [inaudible]—cookie-cutter. So many students and many of my early students wanted to study with me, because they wanted to paint like me, and I went through two schools with Farnsworth. Later on, Bassford School, where they taught only their style, and the students were painting as much as they could like the teacher.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
My philosophy was that I would expose my students to different techniques. Every couple of weeks, they would have a new project. This week we’re, uh—do an abstract. Uh, next week we’re gonna do this and this, uh, but it—it shocked them, because they
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
You know, they had to start thinking differently
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Because these were specific, uh, instructions that we’re gonna go in this direction…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Art-wise, uh, and I would find [clears throat] after a long time—I had students for years. Some of them by being exposed to different techniques and presentations of art, I would find one person, suddenly, would just glow when they—you know, because they…
Parke
They found what they were supposed to do [clears throat].
McIntosh
Found what they loved
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
And I would say, “Okay, Mrs. so-and-so or Mr. so-and-so, you’re gonna stay…”
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
“With this technique as long as you can.”
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
“Forever, if possible.”
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
“We’re going to keep trying stuff,” and as—as I kept students for a long time. They—they loved my classes, and in spite of the fact they were in shock when I had to expose them to different…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Techniques, but eventually, all ended up with their own…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Style, and that’s the biggest service you can do to a student—is find them and what’s in them.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Teach them how to see.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
I had—students would come to me, practically in tears…
Parke
Oh.
McIntosh
After a couple years studying. They’d say, “I—finally, I know what you meant when you said, ‘You’ve gotta learn to see.’ I see things so much differently.” uh, I’m visual.
Parke
Yeah [laughs].
McIntosh
All my life, I’ve been visual. Uh, I could turn my head and see subject matter around me anywhere or in the gutter.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
You know, I would—I’d tell them, “Look down,” you know, “Look at the cement. There might be something there…”
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
“That’s beautiful. Uh, look—look at that garbage can.” You know, there’s beauty everywhere.
Parke
That’s a remarkable skill to have [laughs].
McIntosh
Well—but I had severe exposure in the portrait school…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
To the particular style, uh, that I was learning, uh, because he taught only his style. After that, you’re—in time, you go to your own style.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
There’s a long delay, if you have been with one teacher the long time. You’re only doing…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
His style work, and a lot of artists do the same, uh, basic work[?] their whole lifetime. People don’t recognize work—my work sometimes, ‘cause one day I’ll do an abstract and the next day I’ll do a floral, uh…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
You know, I love changing from one to another.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
I don’t consider, uh, abstracts any different than…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Realistic paintings. Uh, every painting starts out as an abstraction, and, uh, they’re—you know, a painting’s a painting.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
And, uh, the art world has expanded so much now that it’s gone way beyond painting. It’s in constructions and light shows and huge presentations and…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Sculptures and other things, you know? It’s very complex now, but, uh, as far as the painting world goes, uh, I was just—get energy from doing different things.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
It energizes me, and, uh, uh, I have ideas now, you know, that I could never get to…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
I’m sure [laughs], but I’m still clipping things out of magazines that I like and, uh, just keeping stuff for…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
You know, paintings that I’m exposed to—to, uh, [inaudible] that I admire.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Um, but, um, you should talk to some of my old students that[sic]…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
They’re old like I am [laughs], you know, uh, and they’re having big shows.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Lot of my students, uh, went right on professional work, and work—are making prices higher—higher than mine [laughs].
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
But, uh, they all had their own look, eventually. That’s why I kept students so long…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Because, uh, they just wanted that assurance, and they—still got exposed to a lot of, uh, unusual approaches, but, uh, a core of about 30 students stayed with me for years.
Parke
Wow.
McIntosh
And, uh, I’ve done portraits with a number of my students…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
In the past. I had been commissioned to do portrait, a really lovely lady from, uh, Tavares area up there, and, uh, uh, she had me over to do a—to talk about a portrait, and she said, uh—I realized right away there was something, uh—she had a problem. She’d had a stroke, and she didn’t like the photographs that were being taken of her to present to friends and family and all that stuff. She was getting on and she was very concerned about facial, uh, problems, and, uh, she was still a beautiful lady
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
But you could tell she couldn’t sit for a portrait for a long period of time, but, uh, I took some photographs of her, we had lunch a couple times and talked ,and I did a large major portrait of her, uh, that nobody would recognize
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
That there was a distortion in her face [laughs]. She loved it.
Parke
Aw.
McIntosh
And, uh, her family loved it. She wanted to leave a heritage [inaudible].
Parke
Of course.
McIntosh
Uh, and it was a challenge for her, because she didn’t want to be photographed, and, uh, she had dedicated caretakers and stuff—wanted a picture of her and stuff, but, uh, it happened to be quite a nice portrait
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
But I knew her for so many years…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
That I knew how to eliminate those problems, and I know her, but you don’t often get challenges like that.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
It was a major challenge for me, but in every portrait is a major challenge, because you, uh—you really want to get the essence of the person, as well as the outward visual quality of them, and, uh…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
You have to get something a little deeper than…
Parke
Yeah, is that kinda what you want people to get when they look at your art? That there is something—like, what do you want people to take away from your art, would you say?
McIntosh
Uh, whatever they want.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
[laughs] Uh, I’ve been—I’ve been pleased to have, uh, letters from people that[sic] hated abstract art, and, uh, they see some of my abstracts, and they—they thank me for…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
This is possibly through my nephew, and his dental office has a number of my paintings, and…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, abstracts and realistic ones.
Parke
[clears throat].
McIntosh
And they spend time there and they see abstract there[?]. Uh, they finally say, “Well, I guess that’s alright stuff.”
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
But, uh, there’s a lot of people—just close their minds to abstract and other radical approaches to art, and it’s all the same. It’s, you know—I minored in sculpture. I would just be happy as ever to go back to sculpture …
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
And do nothing else, but, uh, it’s a little hard to combine the two, uh, careers, because, uh, [inaudible] sculpture is messy.
Parke
Yeah [laughs].
McIntosh
[laughs] It’s messier than painting, and, uh, my sculpture—I had my sculpture from Michigan, uh—minored in sculpture at the University of Michigan—and, uh, my work there—the pieces went into a gallery, uh, out of town.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And the gallery owner skipped the country, sold the work, kept all the money and never paid his artists, so I [laughs] never got my…
Parke
Oh.
McIntosh
Sculpture back, and I never…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Got any money from ‘em[?], but that was a wild, uh, [laughs] chase there.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
[laughs] Uh, I’ve done murals. I did a mural at the University of Michigan that was about 60 feet long.
Parke
Wow.
McIntosh
And I’ve done major mu—murals. I did a major mural in a restaurant, and, you know…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Shoe store [laughs] or…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
[inaudible], shoe store. Uh, did—I did some window display of[?] back[?], piddled in a lot of minor…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Careers. Stuff like that, uh, but, uh, it’s all tied up with art…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
You know, but, uh…
Parke
What do you think inspires you to create?
McIntosh
What inspired me?
Parke
Mmhmm, sounds like a lot of different things [laughs].
McIntosh
Well, my vision, I guess.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, I’m inspired by a lot of artists.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, each—each for a different reason.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh Uh, I can’t minimize that
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
But, uh, I just see stuff and, uh, it excites me. I say, It would be wonderful to paint that.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
I still have that, uh—I’m not able to paint eight hours a day, and never did.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
But I paint mostly in the afternoons, most of my life. Uh, do the laundry in the morning [laughs]…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
But, uh, in my teaching career I had to teach and paint also. So, uh, when my students were finished for the week, I got my studio back…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
’Cause we both had the same studio, but, um, I—I get excited to be sitting where we are here, uh, seeing birds and animals and trees and flowers and all that stuff. Uh, I just—I just see things, and I’m, uh, fortunate in, uh—if I have photographs of things…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
I can’t see again. Uh, I painted outside for years. Uh, as I got—you know, later on in my career, I did everything in the studio and worked from, uh, reference material.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, tons of reference material. Like an illustrator…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Has tons of…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Material to work from, but, uh, my paintings got large, and if you’re painting outside in the wind…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
And the—you know, the painting is flopping…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
In the wind, and, uh, also, uh, I find that painting outside quite often, uh—when you get the painting inside you see that the colors are difficult to…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Being out in the hot sun.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Uh, transferring that, uh, you know—it’s not as good when you get it inside…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
So—and, uh—but I think you have to paint from life outside, and from portraits, you have to paint from life to learn how to paint without the sitter or without being in front of the subject.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Because your, uh, inventiveness comes out when you’re isolated in your studio.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
You may have started something out. I’m working on an abstract now, and, uh, just as a joke I’m—when it gets in the show, I’m gonna call it Two Horses, and it’s an abstract painting.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
But if you’ll look—I mean, before you leave there [coughs]—two Chinese, wooden horses in my apartment here.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
I was painting them on Cape Cod. [inaudible] was painting of both of those horses, and I just got, eh—I wasn’t getting the way I wanted to. so I started scribbling them out with other colors, and underneath is the[?] abstraction—or[?] is the painting of these two horses, but, uh, when it doesn’t work, you know it, and you say, Well, I gotta go on, and to paint the canvas white—to get rid of the two horses—is a shame, because there’s color there…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And there’s[sic] shapes there, and do your new painting into that, leaving some of the—you can’t recognize anything about…
Parke
Yeah [laughs].
McIntosh
The horses, but, uh, that’s where the painting start out.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
If it were ever, uh, X-rayed [coughs]—my voice is so weak from my breathing problems, uh, but I’m sure it comes out…
Parke
Oh, yeah.
McIntosh
In your machine.
Parke
It’ll show up well.
McIntosh
But, uh, [clears throat], uh, if they ever X-rayed [laughs] that painting…
Parke
Then you would…
McIntosh
You would see…
Parke
See it [laughs].
McIntosh
The horses there, and, uh—but other abstracts just paint themselves.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
But, uh, once you get something down on a canvas—I don’t care what it is—just a splash of blue out—out of the blue—the—the rest of the work you’re painting into that piece—it’s a—it’s a piece of the puzzle.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
It may have nothing to do with…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
The final painting but, uh, you know, there’s a lot more in a painting than people know.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Because they don’t see the progression of it.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And that’s why, uh, it, uh—I men—wanna mention these TV shows with artists, because most artists don’t consider those people…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Artists [laughs]. I don’t[?]—cancel that…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
[laughs] Uh, but anyhow, it’s—it’s—it’s a wonderful career.
Parke
Good.
McIntosh
nd the—you saw some of my acting photographs there? [laughs].
Parke
That was wonderful [laughs].
McIntosh
Well, done a little bit of that, but, uh…
Varty
Winter Park Arts Festival also.
Parke
Yeah, um, the Winter Park Arts Festival—you were kind of a founding member of that. That’s a big deal.
McIntosh
Yes.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
And I lived just down the street from the festival. Uh, I lived across the street from the Langford Hotel…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Which is gone now, Uh, and—and I mentioned that was my Japanese house, which was quite a—a notable thing in Winter Park, because there weren’t any Japanese houses here, and I had been to Japan, and, uh, had a house fire, and remodeled the whole place in Japanese style…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
After my visit to Japan. Anyhow, during the Art Festival years, I was walking all my materials down to the Park Avenue, and, uh, setting up in front of my…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Golden Cricket Gallery, and, uh, after two years, I realized that I’m on the street…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Trying to sell paintings, and [laughs] my studio is—or my gallery—was right behind me…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
And they make a commission on—on the sale of paintings, so that’s why I only did the Art Festival for…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
I don’t know—four or five years
Parke
A few years?
McIntosh
Uh, ‘cause I had gallery connections…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
On the Avenue, and you don’t do that. You…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Your gallery,back then, was taking 33 and a third percent.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Nowadays, [clears throat] it’s 50 percent, and in New York, some galleries taking[sic] 75 percent.
Parke
Wow, wow.
McIntosh
So the art—people don’t realize that artists that[sic] work in galleries are—are paying…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Quite a commission to galleries, especially if you get the kind of exposure that New York…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Major galleries give you, uh, but, uh, I—I—I opted out of the Art Festival, because, you know, it just was—I was competing…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
With myself [laughs].
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
But, uh, it was fun back in those years.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
You know, because it was pretty much local, and, uh, it grew and grew and grew and grew, and now, many[?] artists go—they paint and sculpt and do their craft part of the year, and the rest of the year, they travel…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
With a show—street shows—and they have their tents and all that stuff, and that’s half of their exposures…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Possibly happen because they don’t have to pay the galleries…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
You know? Uh, that’s not the only reason it’s good exposure, but, um, it’s a wonderful learning experience to…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
To have your work shown anywhere.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Uh, you—you get comments, you get criticisms, and, uh, you get to see your own work.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
My paintings generally don’t hang around. I think I told you this before.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Uh, when I finish a painting—and through the years having gallery associations—when I think the painting’s finished, I frame it and get it to the gallery…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And I forget them, because I’m thinking of the one I’m working on.
Parke
The next one [laughs].
McIntosh
Yeah.
Parke
The upcoming one [laughs].
McIntosh
The next one.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
And, uh, I’ve only hung one painting, uh, of my own…
Parke
Yeah, that’s what you had told me before.
McIntosh
In my apartment and, uh, my house in Winter Park. Uh, it’s a very large, abstract painting, and you won’t believe this, but I don’t—I’ve never hung my own paintings.
Parke
What’s the reason behind that? Do you have a reason?
McIntosh
Uh, I—I wanted them to—to go to the gallery and sell.
Parke Mmhmm.
McIntosh And I—I’m interested in a new one. I don’t wanna…
McIntosh Yeah.
Parke If I kept that painting sitting around—you…
McIntosh
I’d see something…
Parke
You keep moving forward.
McIntosh
And change either[?] this or what[?], but, uh, I just got rid of it, so I could get on with the next…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
One, and, uh, I produced a lot of work…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Over the years, but that particular painting, uh, sold to my friend’s[2] mother, and hangs in the Mayflower.
Parke
Wow.
McIntosh
She’s got it in her apartment. It’ll be in the show.
Parke
Oh, okay.
McIntosh
And just ran across a letter from Maury Hurt, who I told you is…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Part of the best artists in…
Parke
Yeah [laughs].
McIntosh
In Winter Park and Orlando. Uh, there was a very nice, sensitive letter from him from a show that I had, uh—and that painting, he mentions specifically. [inaudible] I think I’ll have that framed…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
And put it next to the painting in the show, because people know who Maury Hurt is here, and his word, uh…
Parke
Is important.
McIntosh
It was a compliment. It was an extreme compliment
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
But the way he worded it, it’s like an artist…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Words something. Not like a—just a casual visitor. It’s a sensitive…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Approach that he put in this letter to me. So you’ll see that letter. Here you can read it if you want, but, uh, I would be happy to keep painting…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
For the rest of my days, for the next 20 years.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Uh, I remember seeing pictures of, uh, artists, [inaudible] not [inaudible], but, uh—I’m losing it now for a minute—but I was bedridden—he was bedridden anyhow. I can’t think of his name, and they made eight-foot brushes for him.
Parke
So he could reach?
McIntosh
So he could reach the canvas. That’s how artists—some artists are [laughs].
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Uh, I—I could paint hundreds more pictures.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
But [laughs], uh, [inaudible] wheel me around pretty soon.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Um, it’s been, uh, interesting talking to you, and, uh, I hope some of this stuff…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
You understand.
Parke
Oh…
McIntosh
[inaudible].
Parke
This is wonderful.
McIntosh
[laughs] Sorta different than other teachers.
Parke
It’s been great talking to you.
McIntosh
Especially…
Parke
I feel like I’ve learned a lot.
McIntosh
Good. Well…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
So you can paint now.
Parke
I can.
McIntosh
Yep.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
Anybody can paint.
Parke
Um, can I ask you one last question?
McIntosh
Sure.
Parke
Um, I know that you worked at the [Albín] Polasek Museum [& Sculpture Gardens]. Did you know Albín [Polasek] and his wife, Emily [Muska Kubat Polasek]? And…
McIntosh
Yes.
Parke
How was that for you? How were they?
McIntosh
Uh, Albín, I didn’t know that well.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, saw him just on different occasions and talked, but Emily, I knew and sat with her. Uh, she made cookies for me…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
[laughs] And cookies that are from her home country[3]—very complex little cookies—and she even gave me the equipment to make them myself.
Parke
Wow [laughs].
McIntosh
But, uh, I—knowing Albín and being a—a sculptor myself part-time, uh—and also, my [coughs]—my brother-in-law, Ken Wacker, along with, uh, Rever Haines, the lawyer, were very influential in the early Polasek years.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And keeping the estate, and running the—the home [inaudible].
Parke The institution, yeah.
McIntosh And—and working on its future…
Parke Mmhmm.
McIntosh Uh, through Albín when he was alive, and then very, very kindly through Emily, because, uh, she was left, but they—they were extremely influential in the early years, and, uh, I was Artistic Consultant for the museum for five years.
Parke Wow.
McIntosh
nd, uh, I actually climbed up on the huge painting of the Man Carving His Own Destiny…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
And I was cleaning that and doing that[?]. I also knew, uh, so much about what Albín would—would have liked.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, and that’s a, uh, very sensitive thing, because, uh, you’re put with responsibility when an artist is gone, and, uh, he specifically had feelings—different feelings—about his work that I could see.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And, uh, I restored things, uh, that I discovered that he had done.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Uh, and I realized how, uh, religious a man he was.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Totally dedicated to his religion,[4] and then my partner and I, uh, designed, uh, the wall in front of the museum and the gates that…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Go in, and, uh, Eric Varty, uh, did the chapel—over the ceiling of the chapel—uh, and I had, uh the paintings of the Stations of the Cross framed and redone, because they were actually rotting out in…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
That damp studio, and, uh, I did a patina—a painted patina—on all of the—the Stations of the Cross were do—done in plaster.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And they were white, and I first saw them stacked somewhere, and I convinced my brother-in-law…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
That they should be put on a wall, and they built this wall and installed these plasters on the wall—life-size from the original. I painted them and painted a patina, which is done to age the…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
o, uh, fake the age of a—of a bronze piece.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And I did that, uh, on all the statues.
Parke
That’s amazing.
McIntosh
Uh, those stations, and, uh, they were later, uh, reproduced by another artist for a client, and they came down, and now they’re having some of them cast
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Some of them are still plaster, but, uh, it just, uh—that portrait of, uh, Albín [clears throat] that hangs in the museum was done, uh, by Charles Hawthorne.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
A beautiful portrait was over the mantle. I don’t know where it is now, uh, but Charles Hawthorne was a Cape Cod painter
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And my teacher, Jerry Farnsworth, and his wife, Helen Sawyer—both famous painters—studied with Hawthorne.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
So, uh, coincidence to…
Parke
I was going to say that…
McIntosh
To…
Parke
That’s a huge coincidence.
McIntosh
I didn’t know Hawthorne, but, uh, Hawthorne’s a fabulous, fabulous…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, painter of figure—of the figure. Uh, Cape Cod has—museum has wonderful work…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Of his in Provincetown, but he taught in Provincetown, uh, in the open air, had models out by the beach.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
There are old photographs of my teachers at their easel…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
With him teaching with, uh, Provincetown…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Harbor in the background, and[?]…
Parke
And he just so happened—just so happened to paint Albín too.
McIntosh
Well, I just—I don’t know how they commissioned it—how they found this fabulous painter to do Albín—but Albín must have known his work…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, because that is a great portrait.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, but it’s a small world, you know?
Parke
That’s crazy.
McIntosh
Uh, and late in years that I, you know—way back, when I [inaudible] knew Albín briefly, uh, I met another sculptor—a major sculptor—Mahonri [Macintosh] Young, the grandson of Brigham Young. I was in his studio and I forgot where it was…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
But I was invited somehow to get into his studio.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
And there was this huge portrait of a seated gentleman, and it was like about 25 feet tall, you know, in his studio in—in clay.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
It was going to be cast, and, uh, as a young student and learner, [laughs] I was so impressed seeing the scale of that work, uh, and, uh, he said, “Oh,” uh, you know, “this is gonna be cast.” He said, “I’m sorry you weren’t here when I was working on the 80 foot—180 foot tall piece,” in…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
In back[?]—it was—took a whole train…
Parke
Wow.
McIntosh
To take this sculpture…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
To, uh, the—where the [inaudible]—Mormons in—in, uh—where—where are all the Mormons at?
Parke
In Utah.
McIntosh
In Utah.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
And it’s a gigantic, uh, statue with dozens of figures on it. Uh, I had no idea the height of it, but it’s a major…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Piece, and, uh, uh, to see stuff in the studio that’s going to go to the foundry, you know, eventually, and just—I’ve been very lucky to have those visits.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And I had private visits with one of the top American architects, uh, Philip [Cortelyou] Johnson. The famous Glass House[5] in—in [New Canaan,] Connecticut…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, was a famous American, uh, accomplishment for—he’s—he’s passed away now, but I was—had private visit with him with, uh, another architect friend of mine to see this Glass House in person…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And to meet him, and, uh, I’ve just been very lucky to have exposure to…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
Some very great people, and anyone who knows architecture knows—knows, you know, Phillip Johnson, right up there with the top architects in—in the world, but, uh, his house was fabulous.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
It’s in the woods, basically, and it has no light fixtures…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
In the house at all. The, uh—all the walls are glass all the way around, and the house is lighted by lights outside in the trees that you can’t see.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And on a rheostat[?], those lights can be turned on, so you can read in the house, and you never see a lamp or anything.
Parke
That’s amazing.
McIntosh
It’s an amazing house. You’ll…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
You’ll see it…
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
In a book, uh, and…
Varty
There’s also your involvement with, uh, Maitland Art Center and [Jules] Andre Smith.
McIntosh
Well, I can’t talk forever.
Varty
That’s a good story.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
[laughs] She’s gonna run out of juice [laughs].
Parke
[laughs] I was going to say, I can come back another day…
McIntosh
Oh.
Parke
And we can talk about a lot more stuff too.
McIntosh
Well, that’s a—quite a good story for you—my association with, uh, [J.] Andre Smith.
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
At the Maitland Art Center.
Parke
That’s kinda where you got your, like—kinda your main start here, right? In Florida? Is that where you kinda began?
McIntosh
Uh, well, I began…
Parke
[laughs] Many years before…
McIntosh
Many years before.
Parke
But [laughs]…
Varty
High school.
McIntosh
But the, uh—my association with Andre Smith is worth a—another little time…
Parke
Okay.
McIntosh
And you’ve got plenty of…
Parke
Got a lot of stuff.
McIntosh
Yeah, but, uh, I was very close to Andre Smith, and I happened to be the only living, uh, Bok Fellow.
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, I was, uh, at—invited to live there, and I had my own studio there three different years.
Parke
Wow.
McIntosh
Different times…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Before I went in the service and came out of the service, and I was very close to Andre Smith. It was called the [Maitland] Research Studio…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Then, and the—the artists that[sic] were invited there, uh, found and all financed by Mary [Louise] Curtis Bok[6]…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Of Bok Tower [Gardens][7]…
Parke
Yeah.
McIntosh
In [Lake Wales,] Florida. They were all older artists, and I was the only—I was 18.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
You know?
Parke
You were a baby still.
McIntosh
Well, yeah, I was, ‘cause[?] compared to them, they were all well-known
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
And, uh, uh, I became very friendly with, uh, the brother of Maurice [Brazil] Prendergast who’s…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
A famous, well-known painter—American, uh—well, landscapes, figures…
Parke
Mmhmm.
McIntosh
Uh, but the brother—brother was at the, uh, Research Studio, at that time [clears throat]—Charles, uh, Prendergast—and, uh—well, that’s another story.
Parke
[laughs].
McIntosh
I’m getting [inaudible]. My voice is wearing.
Parke
Yeah—no.
McIntosh
Uh…
Parke
We’ve got a lot of stuff, so thank you so much for talking with me.
McIntosh
Oh, it was my pleasure.
Parke
And I know—I’m sure we’ll talk again soon.
McIntosh
Yeah…
Parke
Thank you.
McIntosh
And I—I gotta show you those two horses inside [laughs].
Parke
Oh, I’m very excited about it [laughs].
[1] Josephine “Jo” Verstille Nivision Hopper.
[2] Eric Varty.
[3] Kubat was born in Prague, Czechoslovakia (present-day Czech Republic).
[4] Roman Catholicism.
[5] Also known as the Johnson House.
[6] Later known as Mary Louise Curtis Bok Zimbalist.
[7] Also known as Bok Mountain Lake Sanctuary and Singing Tower.
Bradfield
Today is March 10th, 2014. I am interviewing [William] “Bill” Rotto[sic]—Reuter, who served in the United States Navy from 1979 through 2010?
Reuter
2012.
Bradfield
2012. Um, they, uh—Mr. Reuter served during the Cold War and completed his service as a…
Reuter
Captain.
Bradfield
Captain. Um, my name is Daniel Bradfield. We are interviewing Mr. Reuter as part of the UCF [University of Central Florida] Community Veterans History Project and as research for the creation of the Lone Sailor Memorial Project. We are recording this interview at [Central Florida] Research Parkway in Orlando, Florida. Mr. Reuter, can you please start us off by telling us when and where you were born?
Reuter
I was born in [April 4th,] 1961 in Camden New Jersey.
Bradfield
Okay. Uh, what did your parents do for a living?
Reuter
My dad owned a mobile home business in, uh, Key West, Florida, which is where I grew up, and, uh, my mother, uh did all kinds of different things, including deal with us.
Bradfield
Uh, what did you, uh—do you have any brothers or sisters?
Reuter
I have two younger brothers and, uh—one of them in Pennsylvania and the other down in the Keys.
Bradfield
Growing up, where did you go to school?
Reuter
I went to school in Key West. Uh, grew up in a trailer park, because we owned trailers and trailer parks, and so, uh—but, uh—all—all throughout my life in Key West.
Bradfield
Um, what did you do before entering the Navy?
Reuter
Uh, basically, I was a student—I was a high school student, and received an [Reserve Officers’ Training Corps] ROTC scholarship out of—out of Key West High School, and then went straight to UF [University of Florida] to, uh, start my journey in the Navy.
Bradfield
Um, why did you join the Navy?
Reuter
I wanted to fly airplanes. I wanted be an astronaut.
Bradfield
Um, do you have any other family members in the service?
Reuter
I had an uncle that was in the Air Force, uh, but that’s about it.
Bradfield
Uh, how did your family feel about you joining the Navy?
Reuter
Very, very supportive.
Bradfield
Where did you attend boot camp?
Reuter
As an officer, my boot camp was really going through the Reserve Officer[sic] Training Corps program at UF. So I didn’t attend a formal boot camp, like many of the enlisted sailors that you’ve interviewed.
Bradfield
Did you ever see active duty in a warzone?
Reuter
Uh, only on, uh, Line of Death in Libya, and, uh, in the Norwegian fjords, uh, against Soviet, uh, reconnaissance, uh, and bomber aircraft, but not in the current [Persian] Gulf conflict.[1]
Bradfield
Um, do you have any stories you’d like to share about those encounters?
Reuter
Well, I mean, it’s always fun seeing people that, you know, think differently from you, and back in the [19]80s, certainly, we saw the Soviet Union as, uh—as sort of an enigma. It was very, very mysterious, because they were in this whole different, you know, behind the—Steel Curtain, you know? And so, uh, we had a lot of curiosity, and—and, uh, we’d look back at each other in airplanes, and here we are up in the middle of nowhere, and we just con—continue to have that kind of curiosity. Most of my stories having to do with, uh, stress and overcoming stress in the service have more to do with landing aircraft—landing aircraft on aircraft carriers at night. Those sorts of things. Because those are often, uh, scarier than most other things that an aviator would encounter.
Bradfield
Do you have any stories about any close calls while trying to land on an aircraft carrier?
Reuter
Certainly. Uh, well, I can tell you that, uh, at one point, I was—I had had a, uh, problem—what we call a “bleed air fuel leak,” which can create a fire, and so I had lights in the cockpit that were saying that there was excessive heat in the engine compartment. Uh, and it was—it’s what they call “one step short of a fire.” And a fire out on the aircraft carrier, when there’s really nowhere else to go, and, In this case, the aircraft carrier was so far off of any coast, that we were doing what you call “blue water op[eration]s.” “Blue water ops” meaning you’re going nowhere but back to the carrier, or the aircraft is going in the ocean. So we had to think real quick[sic]. We had just launched off catapult, so we were still very heavy, and we couldn’t land on the carrier right away. Carrier read—wasn’t even ready to catch us right away. So, uh—so we had to do, uh, some— real, uh, quick emergency things. Cockpit was getting very, very hot. Uh, they estimated it was around 130 degrees, uh, in the cockpit, and, um, we had to, uh—had to bring it back aboard the carrier, and—and, uh, did that, and got out of the airplane, and went down, and had me a cheeseburger. Because, uh, that’s one of the ways that we aviators deals[sic] with—deal with stress.
Bradfield
Did you receive any special commendations or medals?
Reuter
Uh, lots in the Navy, certainly. A couple of Legions of Merit medals, uh, which I am very, very grateful for. Uh, most of my accolades though, I can tell you—like most other sailors, I believe, would say—and that is: it’s not only due to them personally. None of these awards, uh—though you wear them as a personal decoration—a decoration, most of the time, they are as a result of the team you were on and the people you served with. Uh, But I was very fortunate to get a—a good number of accolades, uh, in the Navy, Including two commands. Uh, my—my biggest role, before this role down here at NAWCTSD [Naval Air Warfare Center Training Systems Division], uh, was—it’s Commanding Officer and Chief Test Pilot of the squadron up at [Naval Air Station] Patuxent River, Maryland, Where I flew as an [McDonnell Douglas] F[/A]-18 [Hornet][2] test pilot.
Bradfield
Uh, when were you assigned to NAWCTSD?
Reuter
I got here in, uh, January of 2008. So—and as I—as I moved into the role as Executive Officer, which is the second-in-command.
Bradfield
Did you know the—did you know about the region, militarily or other, before coming to NAWCTSD Orlando?
Reuter
All I knew about Orlando, uh, other than knowing a little bit of what NAWCTSD did and the—the—I did not know or appreciate the whole modeling and simulation cluster we had here. I knew there was a base,[3] when there was a boot camp,[4] and everything like that, and the nuke school,[5] But I did not know a lot about what NAWCTSD did, other than produce the aviation simulators that I was fortunate enough to fly.
Bradfield
What were your first impressions of the base?[6] Or—or the surrounding area?
Reuter
Well, I was very impressed with the—the—the—the proximity of everything. I was impressed that we were really close to the Army and we were really close to the Air Force and Marine Corps, and I was astounded with the intimacy of the relationship with the University of Central Florida, uh, and—and continued to enjoy that relationship throughout my tenure at NAWCTSD.
Bradfield
How did that compare to other bases you have been stationed at?
Reuter
There’s absolutely nothing like this area right here. There—there are no—no entities, within the [U.S.] DOD [Department of Defense], that duplicate what we have here. What we have here is a clear synergistic effect, not only based on proximity. You can put anybody in a building next to another entity and not gain the kind of synergies we get here from the partnerships and the relationships that we have across academia, and industry, and now these DOD activities.
Bradfield
What were your first days at NAWS—NAWCTSD like?
Reuter
I came in with—wearing civilian clothes, ‘Cause I was actually a, uh—in a—in a class. So this class had you wearing civilian clothes. So people didn’t know that I was the guy that was gonna come in and eventually be in charge. So it was actually very cool, ‘cause I could have this sort of Brubaker approach to it, Where [Henry] Brubaker was the guy that[sic] went into the prison as the warden and he went in as an inmate. So I kinda went in in that underground kind of incognito way, and it was great, ‘cause I got to hear the conversations. I got to understand a little bit more about the culture/ but it is the most unique place that I have ever served in the Navy.
Bradfield
What were your primary responsibilities while you were at NAWCTSD?
Reuter
Well, I was the Executive Officer, who is the second-in-command, so responsible for pretty much everything that happens, uh, at NAWCTSD, and the other thing that a lot people don’t rec—recognize is that when you’re the commanding officer, or the Executive Officer, of NAWCTSD, You are also the Executive Officer, Commanding Officer of NSA Orlando—the Naval Support Activity Orlando, which is the base. So all of the stuff that deals with the gates, and the guards, and any of the sort of anti-terrorism measures, or any of that kind of stuff when it comes to protection, You deal with in capacity as CO or the XO, so—Commanding Officer or Executive Officer—of NSA Orlando. So you really had two hats and two jobs.
Bradfield
So, eh, what was a typical day like, um, when you were, uh, Executive Officer?
Reuter
Well, a typical day as Executive Officer, uh, had a lot to do with, uh, a series of meeting, most of which were people that[sic] wanted a decision about one thing or another. Some of them were informational, but we tried to keep those to a minimum. Most of the time, I was given direction and—and providing guidance to people that were trying to, uh, make decisions. Uh, I—I tried to give them enough context to how I would decide, so that they could make decisions on their own and have my full faith, trust, and confidence, as they did so. So a lot of different things go on as you can imagine. Running, uh, a warfare center and a base, and so, there’s, uh, everything from acquisition stuff that has to be decided, to what, uh—to—to where we’re gonna—to what color carpet we’re gonna pick out. There’s just a lot of different things [laughs] that—you[?] pro—and anything in between that spectrum.
Bradfield
Um, can you tell us about the types of projects you worked on and what they aimed to accomplish?
Reuter
The things that I’m most proud of, and the thing that people need to understand is that: simulation—we talk about it, kind of, trying to create an environment that is the real thing, and, in this environ—in this world today— in the way that we train our airmen, our sailors, our soldiers, and our Marines, We have to create some really, really immersive environments, in order to generate the kind of suspension of disbelief. For people to go in there and actually get proficiency from these environments. I mean, there’s[sic] so many people playing video games and they’re dealing with such cool graphics and immersive effects that you really, really need to wow them, in order to create that environment, and in the aviation community, it becomes even harder, because you’re dealing with very dynamic technology and it’s not as easy to do that.
So what we decided to do in the Navy was really, really take hold of this whole idea of increasing the fidelity of our simulations. Whether it be better visuals, better motions, better all kinds of different things that you can do to generate, uh—to—to give them an environment where they could actually be trained, and so, we were—I was—I was fortunate enough to be there, from ‘08 to ‘12—from 2008 to 2012—where we made huge investments that we still continue to make, but it was really the—the tip of the iceberg, for the money that’s going into simulation and that is being taken out of a lot of the live exercises that we used to do that cost a lot of money and that required a lot of infrastructure, and you had to sustain that infrastructure. So that’s a—a cost that is per—you know, in perpetuity. So we’ve have really changed our mindset on simulation. That’s been the most important thing that I was a part of—of being able to do that in, uh, aviation, surface, subsurface, and other communities.
Bradfield
In what ways have the simulation projects at NAWCTSD impacted other branches of the military?
Reuter
So the Air Force, uh, is very, very big on simulation, as well. They’re—we do a lot of collaboration through—not only of the acquisitions that we do, you know? We—we go out and we buy a simulator, and we go to some of these industry partners that are in this area and around the country, and, in fact, the world, and we buy, you know, an aircraft simulator or we buy a ship simulator, or something like that, but what’s really cool is the collaboration that goes into the technical side of this, before we ever ask industry to give us a simulator. We inform each other, through symposia and the like, to understand better the science of learning, to understand better where the technology is going, So we can be leaning forward as a DOD—and not only as a DOD, but as other agencies around here. We still work with the [U.S.] Department of Homeland Security and with other agencies that have benefit from this technology training their workforce—whatever it might be. So that collaborative energy, and the fact that we have papers, and we have symposia that sort of continue to nurture that collective understanding of the technology and its merit in the science of learning. That’s what moves this needle forward for all of us. So that NAWC—it’s not only NAWCTSD, or PEO STRI [Program Executive Office for Simulation, Training and Instrumentation], or any of those entities. It is all those entities and their collective, uh, IP—intellectual property—to get together that gets moved forward.
Bradfield
What do you think the future holds for simulation training in Central Florida?
Reuter
Si—there is—there’s really no limit to what we can do with simulation and training in Central Florida. The fact that we have grown it, based on DODs demand, is very fortunate, but it is certainly not the limit to the application of this technology into other fields. We talk about transportation, we talk—modeling and simulating transportation, In order to understand where chokepoints are, to, uh, train people in dealing with different crises, to train emergency first responders, to train medical professionals. We’re already doing that at the VA [Veterans Health Administration] Sim[ulation] Learning[, Education and Research Network National Simulation] Center down here at Lake Nona, where [Lake Nona] Medical City is. We talk about construction simulation, So that we avoid, uh, costs of engineering changes and things like that, once we have gone into the construction phase, through just So many—education. There is so many applications of this simulation technology in—in moving forward. All of these industries.
Bradfield
What do you think are the most important achievements or contributions of the simulation projects to technology and to the future of technology?
Reuter
I think that the—the most important contribution was to give some other technologies an application that actually could affect an end-product. So if you think about digital media and graphics, alright? and some of the, um, some of the, uh—the stuff we’re doing with, uh—with extensive graphics—much—much higher definition graphics—There’s are a lot of different applications for those types of technologies. What we did was bring those technologies into, uh, a simulation, into creating a virtual environment, Such that we could add proficiency to people. We can do that in so many different ways, not only across DOD, but others, as well.
Bradfiels
When did you leave the Navy, and what did you do after you left?
Reuter
So I left the Navy in September of 2012, um, just—Not even two years ago now—And started my own consulting practice. I’ve also continued to work in the simulation industry and work with both companies in—in the simulation industry, as well as with folks like the [Metro Orlando] Economic Development Commission, and—and the Mayor’s office, and people that are moving forward this understanding of how simulation can grow and affect our economy. I was fortunate enough, in the very beginning of, uh—right after I retired, to assist in writing the strategic plan for modeling and simulation for Central Florida, and I can tell ya, more than anything we have a center of excellence. We need to grow and nurture it, even beyond the DOD, such that DOD just wants to be around it, because they recognize the kind of ecosystem we have here.
Bradfield
What values or characteristics of the Navy do you believe made an impression on your life?
Reuter
Well, he standard answer, of course, would be: honor, courage, and commitment, and they, uh—and those are our watchwords in the Navy, and the—the caliber of people that I have met—that I have lifelong friends, uh, that[sic] I’ve been 28 years in the Navy. You’ve met people in so many different stages of your career, and you continue to be in touch with them, and so, that sort of, uh—that’s sort of such a nurturing environment, and the fact that we were off and off of the aircraft carrier, and test flying up in Patuxent River, Maryland, Launching into some pretty hairy situations, uh, and—and came through it, and shared a beer at the end, uh, Just continues to nurture those relationships, and we’ve seen kids grow up together, and we’ve had a lot of fun, and so that’s been the most valuable piece for me.
Bradfield
How has the NTC Orlando base or Central Florida region changed since the time you spent there?
Reuter
In my case, of course, that would be a little NA [not applicable], But I can tell you that I’ve, uh—because I didn’t spend the time at NTC—But I can tell you that, um, you know, what has been done at [Lake] Baldwin Park is phenomenal. No question about it, it has definitely one of the better repurposing of a base environment that, uh, has taken place in our entire country, when it comes to BRACs, and how people have responded to Base Realignment and Closure. Uh, I think what’s unfortunate—and what was unfortunate for me and my family—was when we came here and saw that there was really no evidence that the Navy had been there, and so hence, the rationale and the driver behind the Lone Sailor Navy Memorial Project.
Bradfield
What do you think former naval personnel would like to see or be reminded of when they revisit—when they revisit the site of the base and the LS[M]P memorial?
Reuter
I think, more than anything, they want to imagine—re—reimagine, especially ones that were stationed there, what that Grinder was like, to recognize that that is hallowed ground, and to be able to tell their descendants about the time that they spent here and the pride that they took in getting through that. Whether it had been the nuke school or whether it was RTC [Recruit Training Center Orlando]—you know, because there were a lot of Navy entities here, at that time, and so, they—people need to understand what the Navy meant to Orlando during those days. It was a big Navy town. People started and—and made businesses grow, as a result of the Navy being here during those times, and so, to have—and we’ve got such a tremendous amount of support from people way out of town, That have roots here in Orlando based on their time here at RTC, and so somehow, we have got to—got to memorialize that, and give them a chance to re-experience that and pass that on down the generations.
Bradfield
Is there anything else you would like to share about your Navy experience?
Reuter
Well, I tell ya, I’m just—I was very blessed from the word go. Um, you know, you’re talking to a kid that—that grew up running on coral in Key West, And—often barefoot—had a dream to be an astronaut. Ended up going through the whole program, into Test Pilot School, finalist for NASA [National Aeronautics and Space Administration], ended up coming here into a place that I had no idea how special it was, and I—I’m grateful for the relationships that we have built, and I have built personally, as a Navy guy, with the folks at UCF with president [John C.] Hitt and a lot of others in this community, uh, that truly, truly are a partnership community, and, uh, it was the best way to—to leave the Navy. Understanding, that one, my command was in my good hands and the Navy was in good hands but also to come out into this tremendous community that[?], um, I’ve learned more in the last four years being in the Navy, than, uh, arguably then I learned in the la—in the ten prior, Uh, for sure.
Bradfield
When did you start your astronaut training?
Reuter
Uh, you—basically, what you do is you—as you—when you become a test pilot and you go through Test Pilot School, You are then, uh, afforded the opportunity to apply to NASA, and the thing—fortunately or unfortunately—when I was through that training and was applying for NASA, We had—had encountered a couple of really tough things. The [Space Shuttle] Challenger disaster, uh, certainly setback some—in 1986—se—or 1985[7]—setback some things pretty big, and then the [Space Shuttle] Columbia disaster was really the one that was tough. I mean, I had two buddies on the Columbia that day: uh, [William] “Willie” [Cameron] McCool and Dr. David [McDowell] Brown, uh, and that really slowed the manifest of space shuttle launches. So—so it was harder to get through the eye of the needle there, when it came to NASA. They weren’t taking as many people—all that kinda stuff. So I was a finalist three times. I—I’m very grateful for that, But at the end of the day, uh, somebody had other plans, and I have no problem with that, and I am very, very grateful that I got to come here.
Bradfield
Alright. Well, thank you very much.
Reuter
Absolutely. Thank you for the opportunity.
Hanke
Okay. Today is the 21st of November, 2014. My name is Gabrielle Hanke and I am here interviewing Dr. William "Bill" Blank. He served in the Army from 1971 until 1974. He ultimately reached the rank of Specialist 4 and was stationed in Mannheim, [Baden-Württemberg,] Germany. I am interviewing him as part of the University of Central Florida’s [Community] Veterans History Project and this interview is being conducted in Orlando, Florida. Alright, so let’s start off with your early years.
Blank
Okay. Um, well as with most military vets, I would guess they would say a couple of words that might define their experience would be “conflict” and “adventure.” I think, you know, traditionally, that the military definitely offered both of those, and when I think of the conflict, I actually think of conflict here at home rather than abroad. Um, that was a—a pretty tumultuous time, um, in our society regarding world events, world affairs, and the military’s involvement in those events, um, specifically looking at the Vietnam War. And uh—it—it really began after I had already begun college.
I was a—a college student. I’d been going to school for several months and, uh, back in 1971. In the fall of 1971, they had the lottery, and it’s not like you think of the lottery today where you can win a million dollars, but rather, the lottery was determining who was going to be getting a draft notice. And, uh, my number happened to be 31. And up until about 100, those individuals could be expecting to get a draft notice. And so, uh, we—we had a—an opportunity—I guess I’m going to call it, uh—if you knew you that you were going to be getting a draft notice, you had several months typically to enlist as a—a prelude to getting that draft notice or—or in lieu of getting that draft notice. What were the advantages of that? One was that we—we had—we were actually kind of transitioning into what they called the “all-volunteer Army,” which began a year later. So this was really a year to sort of field test some of the constructs of that all-volunteer Army. And by enlisting prior to getting the draft notice, we were able to go in under something they called the “buddy system.”
And so my best friend from high school—who was coincidentally my college roommate—who also had a very low number for that lottery, we decided together to go ahead and enlist in the Army and that would give us the opportunity of going in under the buddy system. And what that really meant is that we were able to go through basic training together. And if you can imagine a couple of kids from a small industrial town, uh, in North Central Wisconsin, who had not previously ventured far from their backyard, were going to be going somewhere around the world, um, experiencing this major adventure. And so by at least starting off by having that kind of security blanket, that—that familiar face going through basic was really important and, um—and it actually meant a lot, I think, to many people, um, who had that opportunity.
So we went in, we volunteered, uh—enlisted. Uh, we—we went to basic training together. And then the second benefit of enlisting rather than actually getting the draft notice was we had the ability to have input in terms of what we would be doing in the military. And since I had taken electronics classes in high school, uh, they had determined to send me to a—a communications technician program—electronics training basically—which worked well for me.
And then the third benefit of enlisting was that—although it was not a guarantee—it—it really came down to the demand of the military at that time, but, um, you could at least give preferences for where you wanted to be stationed. um, and one of mine was to—to be able to go to Germany and, uh—actually, when we finished our training, I—I started off with orders for Vietnam, but because they were starting to pull back on the numbers of people they were sending to Vietnam, uh—they backed down on the Vietnam, uh, orders and transitioned them to Germany, and so I did get to go to Germany for three years. So I thought that was going to be a pretty positive experience for me.
And—and, um, to—to maybe give just a little bit more background, it was—it was a really difficult time actually, um, for young men primarily—although there were some women that were also going in—but men were the ones that were getting drafted, because of the societal views on the Vietnam War.
It was not a righteous war. Um, America had not been threatened. Our interests abroad had not been threatened. And so for many people in the country, um, there was resistance to the war and—and that was especially evident, um, on college campuses. Uh, having been a college student, you know, we all—we all had kind of a common perception of the war and, um, and that probably peaked in 1970, when at Kent State [University], the [Ohio] National Guard killed—I believe it was four or five students and then many others were injured as well, when the Ohio National Guard opened up on—on a group of protesters at that institution.
Um, and so, going into the military, going from student to—to soldier literally in a couple of short months created, I guess, a great deal of, um, cognitive dissonance, or at least it made me really question my values and philosophies about living and learning versus, um, you know, doing my duty and, um, you know, agreeing to uh, protect, and pr—um, protect society, uh, which—which was something that, um—in my family, you know—it was pretty conservative. That was kind of a—a passed down value, um, or—or philosophy, I guess, on life.
You do what you’re told to do by the authorities and—and you do it gladly. And uh, my grandfather had been in World War I and I—I remembered talking to him frequently and seeing all of his photographs. And so there was kind of that sense that, um, I need to pick up the torch in my family system and—and do my job for the military. So, two—two conflicting, um, life views really. Um—and—and I was not alone. That was pretty common I think for many young people at that time.
But nevertheless, I ended up going to Germany. And, um, one of my very first experiences in Germany, ironically, was being the point person, um, in a riot squad. When you think of a riot squad as a “V” and—and they ask for somebody, or they told somebody, “You’re going to be the point person.” And that was developed because of some of the international protests to the Vietnam War. Uh, [President Richard Milhous] Nixon had been doing quite a lot of carpet-bombing, where he would just saturate the country with explosives and—and so European students were protesting, as well. So I’m a student one day and a few months later, I’m actually wearing a uniform with an M-16, with a bayonet on it, and I’m the point person with students from Germany, um, attempting to infiltrate our base or—or surge our fences—and—and that put me in a really awkward position as well. Fortunately, um, nothing happened to the extent that we had to make contact with them, um, but—but nevertheless, it—it really made me question what I was doing and—and whether or not it was a valid, um, experience. Uh, so—so that was my introduction to Germany.
And then, um, just about a year later, I was actually going to teletype school, which was just outside of Munich[, Bavaria, Germany] in a small town called Bad Tölz [, Bavaria, Germany]. Teletype was sort of the prelude or the precursor to, um, e-mail. And, uh, just a—a few weeks into that training, uh, there was an attack at Olympic Village.[1] the—the 1972 Summer Olympics were going in Munich, by, um, a group of, um—uh, I guess for a lack of a better word, I would call them “terrorists”—the Black September [Organization] group—the—they were known as, attacked Israeli athletes and ended up—they kidnapped them initially in exchange for, um, over 200 prisoners that were in Israeli jails, uh—Arab prisoners. And, um, when Israel did not negotiate with them, they—they actually ended up killing all of the athletes, along with a German police officer. And, being in Munich at that time, all of the American soldiers were put on alert and, um, it was a pretty tense few days not knowing if that terror would—would, um, transition into some of the American facilities. Um, Mark Spitz was a—a—like a five—I think he won five golds that year for swimming. Uh, they—they rushed him out of Germany and—and flew him back to the United States being a—a Jewish athlete. So again, political, um, unrest and violence across the world, um, was starting to really boil. I think that was probably a, uh, maybe a—an omen of what was to come for America up the road, um, with the Middle East.
And—and we got through it and things seemed to settle down a bit and then, literally a year later, um, my armor unit, we had about 30 to 40 tanks in—in the unit that I was stationed with in Germany, um—80-ton tanks—60-ton tanks, I guess they were. And each year, we would go up to Northern Germany to qualify those tank crews on the firing ranges. And in 1973—in the fall of ‘73—we were up there doing just that, when, um, a number of Arab countries, um, attacked Israel, um, and—and that that was led, um, primarily by, um, let me see. I need to—to—to kind of just refresh my memory. The coalition of Arab states[2] was led by Syria. Egypt and Syria were the two countries that were really kind of spearheading that attack. Um, they were trying to win back, uh, land that was lost years earlier in the Three Day War. This was called the Yom Kippur Wer[sic]—Wer[sic]—War, because it was occurring during that holiday—that Jewish holiday[3]—um, and also the Arab[4] holiday of Ramadan. And so, um, it was kind of ironic that we’re celebrating these two religious holidays, and in the midst of them, they—they create another war.
At any rate, um, literally overnight, all of our tanks were, um, repainted in desert camouflage to—to make us ready to, um, be transported to the Middle East to intervene. Both Russia and the U.S., uh, really mustered their forces in terms of supplies and armament to their respective allies in the Middle East. And—and—and we came this close to, um, a world war with Russia at this point—the two superpowers colliding. Um, fortunately after three weeks, a—a ceasefire though occurred and, uh, that was, uh, the beginning of, um, a series of peace talks that helped to create a little bit more harmony in the Middle East.
Uh, so at any rate, I—I had a number of conflicts that were right on the edge of reality, in terms of drawing my unit into all of them. And so, probably not unlike with most soldiers, there’s always that, um, impeding war or that impending, um, “police action”—as Vietnam and Korea were called—uh, on the cusp of—of every morning.
Um, but—but in spite of all of that, I would say that I—I got a great deal out of the experience that I had in the military. I think when—when I look at, um, what that did for me, in terms of just the confidence and the self-responsibility, um, just the—the, um, I—I think ability to—to live my life more independently and autonomously. Um, the military was truly responsible for that. I think, in addition to that, there were relationships that were forged while in the military that were like no other relationships since, in terms of being very authentic and—and really, um, having that sense of cohesion that common bond or shared reality with other soldiers. Um, those relationships really truly turned out to be lifelong relationships.
And then, in addition to, um, being able to benefit from the GI Bill [Servicemen’s Readjustment Act of 1944], as a first generation college student, I was able to—to get my education—undergraduate and graduate education—um, at least partially funded by the military. um, gave me the opportunity to really get back to the, uh, goal of—of living and learning life, helping other people, uh, develop academically as a—an educational counselor and—and educational teacher. I think ultimately, all of that cumulatively allowed me to give back to the military in that, after getting my—my graduate degree in counseling, I was able to, um, develop a course for chronically unemployed Vietnam vet[eran]s, and—and, um, administer that six-week course throughout the state of Wisconsin, resulting in a national award with an over 80 percent placement rate at the end of that year for—for these, uh, participants.
And then, beyond that at other institutions, um, at Warren Air Force Base in Cheyenne[, Wyoming], I—I taught ongoing workshops for military, who are retiring after 20 or 30 years, to help them more easily transition into civilian life and the civilian workforce. And then even here at—at UCF [University of Central Florida], I have the opportunity to work closely with veterans.
When we had the war with Iraq, and many of our UCF students were called out who were National Guard or Reservists, I actually created a—a long distance career counseling service for those veterans and extended it to all of their cohorts. um, and—and helped them to really, um, evaluate their life experiences in—in the face of being a warrior and how that was influencing changing career goals and helping them to adjust their academic programs, and then also to help assist them with the transition once they came back to college. Um, so, and—and then more recently, with the—the veterans academic resource grant that we got, I’m one of the committee members for that grant, and I’ve been able to really help infuse some professional development programing for veterans with job fairs and things of that nature.
So ultimately, you know, I—I can go back 40 years and I can see how the military really shaped me and—and how that military thread has consistently woven through my life, um, to, you know, my—my early 60s, where I am now, and—and how that’s been such a—a, I guess a pivotal experience in my life. It shaped me truly more than any other experience I’ve had thus far. So, that’s—that’s the summary of my story and, um, I stand by it.
Hanke
Well, that was very good. Um, if we could go into some more details such as, uh, how were you trained during this time of there was conflict, but then there wasn’t almost. Like, it was a very iffy time. Could you tell me a little more about that?
Blank
Well, I—I think with—with anyone in the military at any time, you’re—you’re on constant alert and you’re involved in continuous training and we were always prepared for the worst. Um, we were ready to be mobilized as with, uh, the war, uh, in the Middle East. Literally in a few days, our entire, uh, battalion would be ready to transition over to the Middle East from Germany. Um, constant training. And I think, uh, there was also, um, quite a lot of educational programming, um, helping us to—I—I think, understand where we fit with all of the world events that were going on. Um, I don’t think we were discouraged from challenging ideas and beliefs, but I think because we were the military, there was always that, um, underlying focus on it’s our job to—to go in the event that we’re called out and do what we’ve been trained to do. It was our duty—our responsibility. So no matter where one might have been, um, in terms of their political ideologies, they were ready to do their job. And I am absolutely confident that—that we all would have done what we would have been asked to do as—as were soldiers in every war before ours.
HankeOkay. And then, um, I know there was, um, the issue of the Warsaw Pact[5] coming around. Um, what was it like uh—I mean like the air? The aura almost of being in Germany—being so close?
Blank
Well I—I did, because I was in Germany and—and because I so much enjoy and appreciate history, I did spend a—a great deal of my personal time while there learning about the history of, um, all of the events of World War II and how Europe had transformed as a result of the war.
And then with the Berlin Wall going up around, um, the time of my birth, uh, it was interesting to learn more about that and—and experience what it was like behind the Curtain—the Iron Curtain. And while I was there, I spent all of my—my vacation time, uh, travelling throughout Europe, um, going actually to Southern Europe to, um, the—the Third Reich headquarters, um, and Bavaria[, Germany], and seeing some of the—the facilities—the Eagle’s Nest[6] that [Martin] Bormann had built for [Adolf] Hitler.
And, um, and then also going to some of the countries that had been, um, uh, freed as a result of American intervention in the war. Um, France, and going up to Belgium, Holland, Luxembourg, seeing where the Battle of the Bulge occurred in Bastogne[, Belgium]. Um, and talking to people up there and actually living with a German family for the three years. I was there and hearing their stories. They were terrified of the Nazis,[7] I think, as any European may have been at that time. Um, it—it was really interesting to get that personal perspective from people and—and talk to people who had actually been there during those wars—during that war—and, uh, hearing their, um, personal life histories.
Hanke
Yeah. That’s very interesting. And then, um, let’s see. How did you feel—I know you weren’t there at the time—but when the Berlin Wall finally came down?
Blank
Um, it—it was amazing to me. and—and I—I guess what—what I guess the personal connection for me—it went up the year I was born and it was torn down the year my sons were born.[8] And—and so I look at, within that lifetime, what a dramatic change. And that was certainly an indication of, uh, what was to come with some of the, um, eastern countries, and now the Middle Eastern countries as well, um, as far as that goes—in terms of democracy and in terms of people having freedom of choice.
So when I thought about that, it helped to legitimize my involvement during the Vietnam period, again which was pretty tumultuous, um, politically- and society-wise, um, especially as a—an 18 year old not very knowledgeable about much in life at that point. Um, every experience I had, uh, was sort of a first time exposure for me. I didn’t have the—I guess the cognitive ability to—to maybe put it all in perspective early on, it really evolved over time.
Hanke
And then, um—how do you feel? Has the military changed in its attitudes? As you were saying, um, your generation—you did your duty. Do you feel that that has carried over to this generation?
Blank
It—it—it has, um, to my amazement and to my pleasure. I have seen amazing, amazing, changes. Colonel [Richard] Toliver talked about that even from, uh, pre-Vietnam era and World War II era—how things have changed. And I think for veterans, in particular—during the Vietnam era, we were either openly discriminated against, um, chastised, or we were politely tolerated at best, but we were never, never celebrated. I can honestly say that in 40 years, not one person ever even acknowledged my time in the service, much less thank me for it, until a couple years ago, um, here at UCF when—when the veterans’ memorial was—was opened up, about two years ago, I guess it was.
And now, it’s totally amazing, is that anytime people realize that—that I had been a veteran, if I have my—my flag on or if I go to a—a veteran program here, um, they all say “Bill, thank you for your service.” I came into work on Veterans’ Day and—and there was a—a card taped to my door and all my staff had signed it, uh, thanking me for my service. And that’s like something I never ever would have expected to happen. I mean, you can’t imagine, unless you lived through it, um, you know, returning war veterans being spit upon and—and criticized and—and yelled at—to—to being thanked. I mean, that is a true, positive transition. I think it speaks volumes about how the American military is viewed in this country, at least today. Um, I had an opportunity to go to the, um, the Marine officer training school in [Marine Corps Base] Quantico[, Triangle, Virginia], and, uh, it was amazing how—how they were so excited about the opportunity to—to put themselves in harm’s way to protect their country. Um, a real different attitude, not just by society, but by soldiers as well.
Hanke
Do you have an opinion on what caused this?
Blank
Well, you know the concept of nationalism. During World War II, there was this wave of nationalism. We were attacked and we were going to defend our country. We were going to do what we needed to—to protect our families and our way of life. And, um, now again, with the attack on the World Trade Centers[sic] and—and the terrorist attacks coming from the Middle East, we have been threatened. And, um, our—our interests abroad have been threatened. Um, our—our homeland has been threatened and, indeed, attacked. And so, that’s what it requires, I think, for that wave of nationalism to occur.
During Vietnam, again as—as I said earlier, none of that was threatened, and there were so many questions about why are we there, what we were doing. Um, are we causing more harm than good? And so, when—when the war’s not a righteous war, you’re not going to get that support. When the war is righteous, that support with be there. Hopefully, um, our s—our government, our politicians, you know, learn something from that and they—they won’t be too eager to go to war un—unless there’s just cause.
Hanke
Yeah, and, um, speaking of politicians, I know it was around the Vietnam War where things were really—people were starting to question it and especially with Watergate [Scandal] —what do you remember of that?
Blank
Yeah. Watergate actually happened when I was still in Germany, but I remember coming back and, um, you know—how that—that was the—I guess you could call it the—the straw that broke the camel’s back, so to speak for Nixon. Um, as early as the—the late 60s, he was—Nixon was—was being viewed as the person who was escalating the Vietnam War. Um, I think already there was a—a tide of resistance about him and then Watergate pretty much cinched it for him.
Um, but it—it—it didn’t help to sort of regain confidence in government. I think it helped to further, um, support the concept that the government doesn’t always make good decisions and—and they’re not always, um, principled and ethical people who are running government. And so I think for—for Vietnam era veterans, you know, it—it sort of justified the views that they may have held about government. And—and we were separating military from government. A lot of people in the military didn’t necessarily support what heads of government—heads of state were—were doing and—and the kinds of decisions that they were making.
Hanke
And then, um, what was your homecoming like? Did people distinguish between you were in Vietnam or you were in Germany? Or did they…
Blank
No. If you had a uniform on, you weren’t seen in in a positive light. And so veterans quickly learned to not present themselves as returning veterans. Um, as soon as we got back, um, I can vividly recall my duffel bag with all my uniforms and gear went into a Goodwill bin. Um, the first thing I did was grow my hair out so I wouldn’t look like a veteran. Um, I didn’t want to be, um, targeted and—and truly they—they were. We were.
Hanke
And, um, how did your family feel about you going into the military at this time and…
Blank
They didn’t really want me to, quite honestly. But again with—with the draft, there wasn’t really an option. I—I think they were probably ambivalent about the war as well. and when literally every single night for a—at least a full hour on the national news, we were seeing clips of Vietnam with—with people’s sons and husbands and fathers being killed left and right and in large numbers. Um, there—there wasn’t a lot of support from family members for their sons to go into that situation.
Hanke
So, now you said you were initially, um, listed as going to Vietnam, correct? How did…
BlankRight. Right.
Hanke
How did you feel about that?
Blank
I—I was concerned about it, but, you know, if—if that’s where they needed me to be, uh—just like every other individual who went through basic training or advanced individual training, you went where they told you to go. The military was very effective at, um, kind of creating that—that cohesion and that common bond where you go and support your fellow veteran—your fellow, um, soldiers, rather.
Hanke
And then, um, you said uh, it was thr—through the military you made these very unique relationships. Do you still keep in contact with people?
Blank
Um, not—not so much anymore at this point in in my life, um, but for the first decade or so after getting out, um, there—there was ongoing contact. Unfortunately, um, probably of the—the two or three people that I really bonded tightly with in my unit, uh, one of them was killed, um, in Germany, um, through—through an accident. And, uh, the other one relocated back to Pennsylvania, which was on the other side of the country as me. I was, um, in Wisconsin and then ultimately Colorado. So we—we sort of lost touch as well.
But, um, one of my coworkers picked up grandparents the other day from the airport, and took them to Lakeland, where her grandfather was reconnecting with a—a military cohort from his time during World War II. And she was sharing with me how rewarding it was when she saw them, um, connect, um, for the first time. and—and they embraced each other and literally, uh, began crying because, I—I think when—when you see those people after so many years, it’s that whole flood of emotions that that come to the surface. Colonel [Richard] Toliver talked about that when he wrote his book,[9] um—how it’s a bit difficult, because so many of the emotions from wartime resurface. But—but I think they can be positive emotions too. It’s not just all negative memory. It’s—it’s the relationships that were so crucial, I think, to that lifelong, I guess, association with the military.
Hanke
And, um, I know it was a very serious time, but what did you guys do for fun?
Blank
Well, that’s the, uh, the other side I talked about, you know, for everybody going in the military. It’s conflict and adventure. And—and it’s kind of a strange combination, because sometimes they may be one and the same. But, um, being in an armored unit, um, as an 18 year old kid and we have these 60-ton tanks, uh, it was pretty amazing to be able to play with them. We—we had some areas where we would practice, um, driving them. And—and Americans would discard cars in that area that they couldn’t take back to the States, because they didn’t have seatbelts, safety glass, all of that. So imagine a Volkswagen with—with 60-ton tanks driving over it, one after another. Um, those—that was the kind of activity that made it pretty exciting.
But then beyond what we did in the military, um, uh, you know, beyond when—when we’d go on maneuvers, I would be driving our operations major, scouting a place to camp out with—with you know 30 tanks and all the crews and support peoples. So I had a four-wheel drive Jeep and we’d—we would be going through the hillsides and having quite an adventure of it.
But, in addition to all of that, when I wasn’t working, um, I traveled a lot. I got my international driver’s license as soon as I could, bought a car, and every single weekend I was gone. I was visiting all parts of Western Europe. In a weekend, you could go just about anywhere, because Europe is such a small landmass. Took all my vacations over there. Um, my parents came over, um, for a couple weeks to—to visit, and we traveled all over Western Europe to—to help them experience it, as well.
Um, and then the German family I lived with, they—they sort of adopted me as a—a[sic] international, um, son—I guess for lack of a better term. And they—they took me everywhere with them when they would go off on weekends. They helped me to really experience the culture and the diversity of Germany and really learn to appreciate what Germany is today. And I think as a result of that, um, you know, knowing what it felt like to be a stranger in a foreign land and then to have people befriend me and kind of help me. Whether it was, you know, teaching me how to, um—say “vergaser,” which is German for carburetor, which I needed to know when I went to the auto-mechanic to tell him I needed a—a “neu vergaser.” Um, to—to, you know, teaching me how they celebrated, um, the holidays and—and what Christmas meant to them, taking me to church with them on Christmas Eve. Uh, all of that was really eye opening.
As a result of that, I became an international student mentor here, um, for our international students, where each year I take one on and, um, have that mentor-mentee relationship to help them adapt and adjust to the United States and to UCF, and just guide them through the everyday issues that—that one faces when—when one is in a foreign land.
Hanke
That’s very good.
Blank
So a lot of adventure, um, and—and again, I think it’s that combination of coming into adulthood and experiencing, um, all of those new challenges and—and adventures that, um, people in the military never ever, ever forget.
Hanke
Is there, uh, any specific moments that stand out to you? That you can still see?
Blank
Um, well, one time, when—when we were on a maneuver—in terms of a memorable experience—the German forests are pretty dense and—and pretty rugged still. They have wild boars which—which have large, razor-like teeth, and—and—and, um, horns, and they can be literally deadly, if you’re caught out in the open with them—if they do attack you. And I recall one night—this may seem a bit bizarre—but having to relieve myself, I left the safety of the 60-ton tank and walked out into the woods, and I heard something snorting. And it didn’t take me but about two and a half seconds to get back on top of that tank. And sure enough, a herd of razorback came running by me, and, um, I felt fortunate I wasn’t out there.
Um, and—and then—and then maybe, um, another time I—I guess I remember well—was actually a trip to Paris[, France] to do some sight-seeing. And—and I was able to really experience Paris and [the Palace of] Versailles and all the history, and—and I didn’t fully appreciate what I was witness to until I got back to the States and began college. And I was in a world history class where the professor was talking about the French Revolution, and, um, Queen [Marie] Antoinette, and—and the guil—guillotines, and Versailles and—and all the other students had kind of a blank look on their face. And I’m thinking Oh, yeah, I—I know that, I was actually there. When he talked about the Hall of Mirrors in the Palace of Versailles, I was there.
Um, when they got into the World War II history and—and talked about some of the early meetings between, um, the different diplomats at, uh, the Eagle’s Nest, or Hitler’s tea house, I was there. Um, everything that was being discussed, I had actually been there in person and had experienced personally. Um, and so, it, I think it made me fully, at that point, understand what a treasure that was for me to have had that opportunity for travel and just seeing parts of the world unknown that I never would have been able to experience had I not been in the military.
Hanke
So, what would you say to someone who is considering enlisting in the military today?
Blank
It—it’s a—it’s a dangerous time to go in the military right now, uh, but I would never discourage it. Um, I actually teach a course—a graduate career counseling course—for, uh, graduate students who are preparing to go into school counseling. And every semester, I bring in, uh, representatives from the military to teach them about opportunities in the military, so that they at least are aware of them when they work with their high school students up the road. And—and I share with them, you know—it’s a personal decision for individuals, but we need to be letting young people know this is an opportunity.
Um, war—war can certainly be dangerous, but there are so many benefits in the military and—and especially in terms of helping to, um, complete one’s education. The military is so supportive of that financially and otherwise. Um, and so, I wouldn’t discourage anyone. um, it—it’s awkward though, because I—I know there’s a good chance today that people could absolutely be, um, in a combat situation and, um, knowing what can happen in combat it—it creates a bit of dissonance with me. But I—I regret that young people today don’t have the same opportunity I did. They—they—young men, in particular—we—we needed that kind of safe haven to—to mature and develop.
At 18, most young men are not ready for college and they’re not ready for life. And so to have that three year period where they—they have the protection of the military. Someone to feed and clothe and house you, but yet challenge you to mature and become responsible. I—I regret that young men don’t have that today. I regret that my own sons, who are 25, have never had that experience.
Ironically, I’ve got a 29 year old, young man who works for me now—a new staff member—and, um, he’s never ironed his shirt. And in the military, we learn to press and starch all of our uniforms to great precision. And, um, this is probably my experience of the year—for me this year. He brought his ironing board, his iron, and a can of starch along with a shirt and a pair of pants and he asked me to teach him how to iron based on my knowledge of how to do that from the military. We—we took pride in our appearance and we were called on it if we weren’t attentive to it. And I—I try to encourage young men today to do the same. One—one of many, many, um, benefits or—or attributes to being in the military.
Hanke Yeah. Um, uh, speaking of the recent conflicts in the Middle East, you said the conflicts that you experienced personally—you feel they were ominous almost?
Blank Absolutely.
Hanke So, um, how did you feel about first [Operation] Desert Storm[10] and then the recent [Iraq] War?[11]
Blank Supportive of it, because their sovereign country had been attacked—Kuwait had been attacked. And—and, uh, I—I—I think, as—as, I believe, every past veteran would have seen, that was a—a just action.
And, um, I think the difference though there versus in Vietnam, um—they put the full military behind it. In Vietnam, uh, there—there were so many restrictions about how that war was approached. And—and as a result of that, it went on. It actually started in in 1954 with [President Dwight David] Eisenhower, when—when he showed political and financial support for South Vietnam.[12] Um, but then, as it continued, uh, into the 60s—with the advisors and over war, and then escalated numbers of U.S. soldiers going there, um, it was never looked at as, “Here’s a war. Let’s put the full force of the military behind it.” But it was rather a trickle of U.S. soldiers going, um, for an extended period of time, not getting the kind of support that that they needed to—to do it right. And—and I was proud—proud of—of the military for the way they handled the first Iraq War.
Hanke
Now with, um, these most recent wars, they’ve been going on for quite a while.
Blank
Yeah, the—the face of war has really changed. Starting with Vietnam, you didn’t know who your enemy was and—and same today with terrorism. But, because terrorism directly threatens the United States and all of us who live here, um, it has to be addressed. You know, I—I don’t see other options than to continue to be involved in in what we’re doing.
Hanke
And then, um—I think you’ve answered almost everything. Um, so, is there anything else you’d like to talk about?
Blank
Um, I—I think just my—my delight at how things have changed with the military. Um, when we—we saw, um—we hosted the film Red Tails in our office. The Tuskegee Airmen, and—and it was during [National] Veterans [Awareness] Week. Um, it was really amazing to see the pioneers for, um, bringing equality into the military, which, in my era, then continued with women coming into the military.
And then I think the second major thing that I’m really pleased to see is that not only has the military, um, really come to a point where they honor diversity and recruit for diversity, but I think they—they also now are being valued more. All—all veterans of every war are being so much more highly valued than was ever the case, from my perspective. And that brings me great joy to—to just know, even after having waited four decades to—to see that, finally, you know, people are supportive. The—the general public is supportive of what the military is doing and—and honoring those past veterans as well.
Hanke
We’re good? Time is good? Okay. Alright. Well, that concludes the interview, and I would like to personally thank you for both your time and your service.
Blank
You’re welcome.
Hanke
Thank you very much.
Blank
Thank you.
[1] Munich Massacre.
[2] The coalition also included Iraq, Jordan, Algeria, Morocco, and Tunisia, as well as Cuba.
[3] Yom Kippur.
[4] Correction: Muslim holiday.
[5] Treaty of Friendship, Co-operation, and Mutual Assistance.
[6] Kehlsteinhaus.
[7] National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP).
[8] 1961.
[9] An Uncaged Eagle: True Freedom.
[10] There is only one Operation Desert Storm.
[11] Operation Iraqi Freedom.
[12] Republic of Vietnam.