1
100
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https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka/files/original/10f90dbd143c3fd155b1f26de5d9bfce.pdf
0a0092d9e0a2fc001530ae5cb69bf606
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
Central Florida Railroad Depots Collection
Alternative Title
Central Florida Railroad Depots Collection
Subject
Railroad depots
Railroad stations--Florida
Railroads--Florida
Apopka (Fla.)
Orlando (Fla.)
Ocala (Fla.)
Port Orange (Fla.)
Lake Wales (Fla.)
Avon Park (Fla.)
Mount Dora (Fla.)
Punta Gorda (Fla.)
Sanford (Fla.)
Kissimmee (Fla.)
Oviedo (Fla.)
Language
eng
Type
Collection
Curator
Cepero, Laura
Digital Collection
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a>
Description
Collection of digital images, documents, and other records depicting the various railroad depots and railroad stations in Central Florida. Series descriptions are based on special topics, the majority of which students focused their metadata entries around.
Contributor
Bronson, Kelly
Campbell, Tyler
Clemente, Chris
Connolly, Lehman
Covington, Adrian
Gray, Mark
Lester, Connie L.
Mercado, Carlos R.
Moore, Samantha
Santos, Marina
Simons, Nicholas
Smalls, Eric
Is Part Of
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/77" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>.
Coverage
Amtrak Seaboard Coast Line Railroad Station, Orlando, Florida
Apopka Seaboard Air Line Railway Depot, Apopka, Florida
Avon Park Depot Museum, Avon Park, Florida
Avon Park Seaboard Air Line Depot, Avon Park, Florida
Avon Park Atlantic Coast Line Train Station, Avon Park, Florida
Church Street Station, Orlando, Florida
Fort Pierce Atlantic Coast Line Railroad Depot, Fort Pierce, Florida
Fort Pierce Florida East Coast Railway Company Depot, Fort Pierce, Florida
Kissimmee Railroad Station, Kissimmee, Florida
Lake Wales Atlantic Coast Line Railroad Depot, Lake Wales, Florida
Lake Wales Depot Museum, Lake Wales, Florida
Mount Dora Train Station, Mount Dora, Florida
Ocala Union Station, Ocala, Florida
Orlando Railroad Depot, Orlando, Florida
Oviedo Train Depot, Oviedo, Florida
Port Orange Train Station, Port Orange, Florida
Punta Gorda Atlantic Coast Line Railroad Depot, Punta Gorda, Florida
Sanford Atlantic Coast Line Depot, Sanford, Florida
Sanford South Florida Railroad, Sanford, Florida
St. Lucie County Regional History Center, Fort Pierce, Florida
Contributing Project
<a href="http://history.cah.ucf.edu/staff.php?id=525" target="_blank">Dr. Connie L. Lester</a>'s American Economic History Undergraduate Class, Spring 2014
External Reference
Mulligan, Michael. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/225874809" target="_blank"><em>Railroad Depots of Central Florida</em></a>. Charleston, SC: Arcadia Pub, 2008.
Turner, Gregg M. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/184906141" target="_blank"><em>A Journey into Florida Railroad History</em></a>. Gainesville: University Press of Florida, 2008.
Murdock, R. Ken. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/38291666" target="_blank"><em>Outline History of Central Florida Railroads</em></a>. Winter Garden, Fla: Central Florida Chapter, National Railway Historical Society, 1997.
"<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/items/show/2477" target="_blank">RICHES Podcast Documentaries, Episode 25: The Railways of Central Florida</a>." RICHES of Central Florida. https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/items/show/2477.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
Cravero, Geoffrey
Interviewee
McFarland, Warren
Bit Rate/Frequency
574kbps
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
Oral History of Warren McFarland
Alternative Title
Oral History, McFarland
Subject
Orlando (Fla.)
Avon Park (Fla.)
Telegraph
Railroads--Florida
Description
An oral history interview of Warren McFarland, a telegrapher, train dispatcher, railroad station agent, grocery clerk, Railroad Safety and Service Agent, Assistant Regional Director and Regional Manager for the Interstate Commerce Commission, and Director of the Office of Compliance and Consumer Assistance. The interview was conducted by Geoffrey Cravero at the University of Central Florida in Orlando, Florida, on January 28, 2016. Some of the interview topics covered include McFarland’s early years and formative experiences, his family life, growing up as the son of a railroad station agent and telegrapher in a railroad depot, World War II, railroad work and telegraphy in his time versus his father’s time, his first job as a grocery clerk, the “extra board” and railroad seniority, working for the Interstate Commerce Commission (ICC), the Trans-Alaska Pipeline System, the Morse Telegraph Club, female telegraphers, American Morse Code versus International Morse Code, acquiring a piece of the first transcontinental telegraph line, train dispatching, overcoming communication limits, an explanation of telegrapher’s paralysis, and Guglielmo Marconi’s contributions to wireless telegraphy.
Table Of Contents
0:00:00 Introduction<br />0:01:59 Family life<br />0:04:45 Growing up in a railroad depot and World War II<br />0:07:34 Railroad work and telegraphy in father’s time<br />0:09:38 First job as a grocery clerk, the “extra board” and railroad seniority<br />0:11:45 Interstate Commerce Commission<br />0:17:22 Morse Telegraph Club<br />0:26:12 First transcontinental telegraph line<br />0:23:17 Train dispatching and overcoming communication limits<br />0:28:39 Telegraphy demonstration<br />0:35:23 Guglielmo Marconi and wireless telegraphy
Abstract
Oral history interview of Warren McFarland Interview conducted by Geoffrey Cravero at the University of Central Florida in Orlando, Florida.
Type
Moving Image
Source
McFarland, Warren. Interviewed by Geoffrey Cravero. Audio/video record available. <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>, Orlando, Florida.
Requires
<a href="http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/" target="_blank"> Adobe Flash Player</a>
<a href="http://java.com/en/download/index.jsp" target="_blank"> Java</a>
<a href="http://www.adobe.com/products/reader.html" target="_blank">Adobe Acrobat Reader</a>
Is Part Of
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/97" target="_blank">Central Florida Railroad Depots Collection</a>, RICHES of Central Florida.
Has Format
Digital transcript of original 35-minute and 41-second oral history: McFarland, Warren. Interviewed by Geoffrey Cravero. Audio/video record available. <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>, Orlando, Florida.
Coverage
Ohio
Avon Park Atlantic Coast Line Train Station, Avon Park, Florida
Ocala Union Station, Ocala, Florida
Chicago, Illinois
Atlanta, Georgia
San Francisco, California
Frances Perkins Building, Washington, D.C.
Golden Spike National Historic Site, Brigham City, Utah
Creator
McFarland, Warren
Cravero, Geoffrey
Publisher
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>
Date Created
2016-01-28
Date Copyrighted
2016-01-28
Format
video/mp4
application/pdf
Extent
197 MB
Medium
35-minute and 41-second audio/video recording
14-page digital transcript
Language
eng
Mediator
History Teacher
Economics Teacher
Provenance
Originally created by Warren McFarland and Geoffrey Cravero and published by <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>.
Rights Holder
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>
Accrual Method
Item Creation
Curator
Cravero, Geoffrey
Digital Collection
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a>
Source Repository
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>
External Reference
Mulligan, Michael. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/225874809" target="_blank"><em>Railroad Depots of Central Florida</em></a>. Charleston, SC: Arcadia Pub, 2008.
Turner, Gregg M. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/184906141" target="_blank"><em>A Journey into Florida Railroad History</em></a>. Gainesville: University Press of Florida, 2008.
Murdock, R. Ken. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/38291666" target="_blank"><em>Outline History of Central Florida Railroads</em></a>. Winter Garden, Fla: Central Florida Chapter, National Railway Historical Society, 1997.
"<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/items/show/2477" target="_blank">RICHES Podcast Documentaries, Episode 25: The Railways of Central Florida</a>." RICHES of Central Florida. https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/items/show/2477.
Coe, Lewis. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/25509648" target="_blank"><em>The Telegraph: A History of Morse's Invention and Its Predecessors in the United States</em></a>. Jefferson, N.C.: McFarland, 1993.
Stone, Richard D. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/23649628" target="_blank"><em>The Interstate Commerce Commission and the Railroad Industry: A History of Regulatory Policy. New York: Praeger, 1991</em></a>.
Click to View (Movie, Podcast, or Website)
<a href="https://youtu.be/bzVlSEHnEaI" target="_blank">Oral History of Warren McFarland</a>
Transcript
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>Today is Thursday, January 28<sup>th</sup>, 2016. My name’s Geoffrey Cravero and I’m speaking with Warren McFarland at the University of Central Florida in Orlando. Thanks for speaking with us today, Mr. McFarland. Let’s, uh, begin with some of your biography. Could you, uh, tell us a little bit about where you’re originally from and your upbringing?</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>Well, I was—I was born in Ohio, but we moved to Orlando when I was a year and a half old, so I count myself as a Floridian, and my father worked for the railroad here in Or—Orlando, and eventually went to Avon Park and was Railroad Agent there for many years, and that’s where I grew up, went to high school and—and, uh, where I went—learned from him—I learned the telegraph, I learned railroad work, and eventually went to work for the railroad after I graduated from high school in 1941. Um, had—had planned to go to college, but 1941 was not a good year to college, uh [<em>coughs</em>] and, uh, I wound up working on another railroad division, rather than the one that went through Avon Park, w—working out of Ocala, and I worked there, uh, for like 25 years, and then I was offered a position with the Interstate Commerce Commission, and I went, um—went with them, and uh, we—we lived in different places: uh, Chicago, Atlanta, San Francisco, and Washington, D.C, and I eventually retired as Director of the Office of Compliance for the Interstate Commerce Commission out of Washington, and I moved—we moved back to Florida after I retired, and been living here ever since.</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>That’s neat. Um, so—what, uh—could you tell us a little bit more about your, uh, your parents? And did you have any siblings, or...</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>Yes. [<em>clears throat</em>] Uh, well, I had, uh, two brothers and three sisters. Uh, the three—the three sisters and one of the brothers were half—half-brothers and sisters, but I didn’t know the difference. Um, they were—they were all older than I, and, uh, so—uh, they were my brothers and sisters, and still are. Al—although they’re not living anymore. I’m the only one of the six that’s still alive, but, uh, my parents were both from Southeastern Ohio, and my father worked for the railroad there, uh, for like 18 years, I think it was, and then he decided to come to Florida and get rich in the Florida Boom in the 1920s. Uh, that didn’t work, so he went back to the railroad and worked for the railroad until he retired [<em>clears throat</em>], and, um, my mother, uh, she was just a farm girl, but she—she worked for a doctor as a receptionist, and she later worked, um, at—in the express office with my father, and then, she—when he retired, she retired, and so, uh, they lived—live—they lived in Avon Park until—until she could no longer take care of herself, and my—my brothers and sisters, um, they—they all—lived all over the place. One in—one in Virginia, one in, uh, Ohio, and—and Chi—and Chicago, and one in Dallas, and my—my brother lived in Avon Park his entire life. He said, “There’s no reason for—for anybody to live anywhere but Avon Park.”</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /> </strong>[<em>laughs</em>] So that’s where he stayed.</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>Were any of them, uh—did they follow in the family business of the railroad?</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>No, none of them. I’m the only one out of—out of, uh—out of six, I’m the only one that went into the railroad business, um, and my—my youngest sister’s husband did go into the railroad business, and his son also went into the railroad business, and I had an uncle that was a railroad man. So it—railroading has—has always been pretty much a—a family, uh, affair in many—in many families. You know, one—one person gets started and then—then others go in, but—but none of my brothers and sisters, uh, were interested.</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>Well, you mentioned, uh—that you—your father, uh, was a station agent and telegrapher in Avon Park. Um, could you tell us a little bit about growing up in the depot? What sort of, uh—what sort of skills and knowledge did you kind of acquire as a young man?</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>Well, [<em>clears throat</em>] uh, I—I was always—I was not a, uh— crazy about trains, but I was interested in trains and—and—and the railroading, and I can remember when I could barely, uh, reach—stand up and—and reach the tabletop like this, and my dad had me doing things that I could do in the—like stamping—taking the rubber stamp and stamping it on a piece of paper on—on what’s called a waybill, which is a—a ship—a shipment, uh, document that you fill out when you have a shipment to make, and, uh, I would st—stamp the—the Avon Park’s stamp on there that showed this, that, where it started from, but, that had to have been about about—5-6 years old when I did that, and I—off and on, all—all during my school years, I just hung around there, and I—I didn’t—I wasn’t consciously preparing for a career in railroading. A matter of fact: my older brothers and sisters all went to college and—and—and it was planned for me to go also, but, as I said earlier, I graduated in 1941, and—and they were already drafting people out of—out of my class, and, um, so I—I knew it was a matter of time. So I didn’t think there was much point in going to college at that time.</p>
<p>So I didn’t go until much later, but, uh, it—it—when—when I was in my senior year in high school, uh, that’s when you could see what was happening: the world was in turmoil, and, um—and, as I said, members of my class had—had been called up, and—so I began to learn telegraphy, and my father taught me and I practiced, and then after I graduated from—from, uh, school, he, um, told the—the railroad that I was, uh, sufficiently knowledgeable to go to work, and, uh—I—I didn’t—As I said, I didn’t—wasn’t consciously, um, aware that I was absorbing everything that I did absorb during those years, uh, hanging around the depot, but I learned an awful lot that I didn’t know I’d learned, until I went out on my own and was working.</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>What, uh—did you notice, uh, any, uh, major differences between the—the time of your father and yours when it c—comes to the, you know—the telegraphing and the—the depots?</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>Oh, yeah. Well…</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>[<em>clears throat</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>When—when my father started, telegraphing was just about—I mean, that was like the major—major, uh, means of internal communication on the rail—on nearly every railroad, and—and when I started, it still was, but it—it began to fade away the—the longer I stayed, and I—and I—I stayed until 1965, and by that time, uh, they still required, uh, uh, people to know how to telegraph to go to work, but—but—at least—as—as—as, uh, operators and agents, but they did not, uh—did not use—use it, because they—everybody had telephones and—and things of that nature. So it was not as—as use—used as much then, and—and probably—well, I left the rail—railroad for the ICC<a title="">[1]</a> in 1965, and by the early 70s, there was[sic] hardly any railroads anywhere using t—the telegraph. It was all teletype and—and telephones and things of that nature. So that—it was[sic] tremendous difference there, and now, of course, it’s gone even beyond that. It’s all computerized—email and everything else like that. Even train dispatching, which I did for—for 18 years, um—that’s become computer-assisted train dispatching and—and the computer does it. When—when—when I was working, it was—it was all in your head. You had to do it all in your head, but, now the computer—they have what they call “computer-assisted dispatching.”</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>So was, uh—I guess the depot was your very first job you had, or…</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>Well, actually, no [<em>laughs</em>]. The very first paying job I—I worked as a clerk in the A&P<a title="">[2]</a> grocery store on Saturdays, uh, which—that—in—in a small town like Avon Park, that was about the only job that—kind of job that was available to a—to a high school kid, and there were three of four, uh, grocery stores in town, and the A&P, which was a chain, the re—others were all independent, but everybody—all the kids that I knew worked at one—one of the grocery stores. That’s where you got your first job.</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>] Um, so I understand you ended up in Ocala, right? But, uh—but you kind of went from—where you were needed, um…</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>Yes, you—when—when you begin railroading as—as a telegraph operator, you—you are put on what they call “the extra board.” Uh, um, you—you—your first day, you establish the date of your seniority, and that means that anybody that’s hired after you—you—you have rights over them on—on—if you want to claim a job or something like that, and—and the same thing hold—anybody that[sic] hired ahead of you can claim a job that’s—whether you want—whether you want it or not, and so, you—as—on the extra board, you just went where you were needed. Uh, somebody needed to be off sick, uh—there were no vacation—no paid vacation at the time, so that—uh, there was not much of that. Although some—some people did take vacations, and you went and worked for them, or they put on extra jobs because of seasonal problems—uh, season—seasonable increases in—in business, they’d put on an extra job somewhere to help the dispatchers handle trains, and so, you worked all over. I worked, uh, I don’t know how many different places. I could probably count it up. Not worth it.</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>] Um, let’s see. Before the, uh, Atlantic Coast Line Railroad merged with the Seaboard Air Line [Railroad], um, and absorbed the Tavares & Gulf Railroad in 1969, you’d already moved to California at that point. Could you tell us a little bit about what you did out there with the Interstate Commerce Commission?</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>Well, I—I—I—my first job with the ICC was in Chicago as—as a Railroad Safety and Service Agent, and, uh, in—in that capacity, I—I made what we call “agency checks” and “yard checks,” and we—we had two things: we were looking for compliance with the—with the tariffs, which had the force of law, and we were looking for, um, equipment that was not being used efficiently, and so, the—as the—and—and the other thing that—that in—in ’65, we also were charged with safety, uh, inspections of equipment and things of that nature.</p>
<p>However, in—in ’67 —1967, all of that was transferred into the newly-formed [U.S.] Department of Transportation, and so we no longer had any kind of safety obligation, but we still retained the car service, which was car—car efficiency, and—and the tariff and—and regulation, and so, I would go from—to various agencies along, um—in my territory. I had an—had an assigned territory, and I was supposed to visit these agencies on a periodic basis and ver—verify that they were complying with all of the rules and regulations, and that they were not delaying any equipment—and that was being used, and from there I—I was transferred to Atlanta doing the same thing, but, uh—and I stayed there for, uh, about five years, and then I was, uh, promoted and went back to Chicago as Assistant Regional Director there, and in—in that capacity, I was assisting the Re—Regional Director and overseeing all of the people that were doing the kind of work I was just desc—describing, and then, um, in ’73, I was, uh, promoted again and went to, um, San Francisco as, um, Regional Manager, and I had the, uh, responsibility for the 13 western states, plus Alaska and Hawaii. Uh, now, railroads and—and buses and trucks don’t run to Hawaii from the mainland, but—but—so we didn’t do much there, but what—I still had the responsibility for Hawaii and Alaska, and I was overseeing not only the—the people who were doing the work that I was talking about earlier, but I was also overseeing the—the lawyers, who—who, uh, handled the cases that were made and the—and the accountants that were—were auditing the—the books of the various, uh, carriers—motor and rail and barge lines and pipelines, and part of the—part of—and—and when I was in, um, San Francisco, the, um, uh, [Trans-]Alaska Pipeline [System] was being built and we had to oversee that, and the law required, at that time, that—and people usually don’t know this because a pipeline is a common carrier, and so, in order to know what they could charge, you had to know what their costs were to build and maintain the—the pipeline, and to do that, we had to have auditors go in and verify, and about ha—halfway through construction, everybody woke up that this was a nine billion dollar, uh, enterprise, and if we waited ‘til after the fact to—to, uh, audit it, we’d nev—they’d never know what they—what they could po—possibly charge. So we sent a team of auditors up there, and they stayed there for about three years determining the actual cost so that the pipeline could go into—into operation when it was finished, but then, after—I was—I was in San Francisco until 1981, and, um, the—the new chairman that had been appointed by President [Ronald] Reagan, uh, was—knew me, and he brought me into Washington[, D.C.] as Director of the Office of Compliance and Consumer Assistance, and I stayed there until I retired in ’85, but in—in Washington, I had oversight over the—the entire country for all of the things that I’ve been talking about that we did. Plus, uh, a lot of local stuff and—going up to Congress and taking care of that sort of thing.<strong> </strong></p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>I read, uh, [<em>clears throat</em>] that the Morse Telegraph Club[, Inc.] used to meet at the [Central Florida] Railroad Museum on [Samuel] Morse’s birthday.<a title="">[3]</a> Could you tell me a little about, uh, the club and how that all came about?</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>Well, it’s—it—it started, actually, back in the 1930s. Uh, some people that were telegraphers decided that they—that it would be a good idea to make—to have a club, and it was more or less a fraternal organization, at the time. I say “fraternal,” although there are a lot of women telegraphers. Uh, throughout the—the whole history of telegraphy, there—there have been a lot of women telegraphers, and probably, on the railroad, was—may have well have been the first industry that paid women the same wage as men for doing the same job, which was not true in—in—not true even today in many—many cases, but, uh, anyhow, these people got together and—and, as I said, it was just sort of a—I won’t say a drinking club, because it wasn’t that, but it was—it was a social club more than anything else, and then it—it sort of faded away a little bit, uh, and just hanging on by its teeth, you might say, and—and then, um, uh—I’m not sure of the exact dates, but sometime after World War II, when—when telegraphy began to fade away, as I had mentioned earlier on [inaudible] on the railroad, Western Union [Company] had al—already almost gone completely to—to teletype, uh, by that time, and, um, so the—the organization transformed itself into, uh, an historical preservation organization, and the goal of—of the, um—of the organization today is to preserve the knowledge and history and the technology that existed, uh, when the telegraph was in use, and, um, we organize in chapters.</p>
<p>Uh, we used to have a chapter in every state and some states had—had, uh, two chapters, but, uh, time has taken its toll and—and, um, now we’re down, uh—for example, the Florida chapter, of which I’m a member, um, encompasses Georgia and—and South Carolina and Tennessee, and—and Alabama. Uh, and so, the membership—the membership hasn’t really declined that much, but the membership of people who actually worked as telegraphers has obviously gone down—way down. Somebody made an estimate, and I don’t know the truth of it or not, but said there were only about 150 of us left in the organization that actually earned a living as—as telegraphers. Um, that may be true, it may not be true. I don’t know, but at the present time, we have probably around 3,000 members and we have around 30 chapters in the United States and Canada, and we—we do demonstrations at—at just about any place that will invite us to do a demonstration, but mostly to local historical societies that have an annual affair and they want something, uh, of, um—that—that has some historical significance, and so they’ll ask us to come and do—do a demonstration [<em>clears throat</em>], and many of these members that we have now have taught themselves to telegraph.</p>
<p>They’ve never worked as telegraphers, but they’ve taught themselves to telegraph, and some of the—some of the members are ham radio<a title="">[4]</a> operators, which uses a—a different code, but it’s still Morse Code. It’s an international code, known as International [Morse] Code, as opposed to American Morse [Code], which was the kind that was used on railroads and Western Union and stock markets and, uh, all of that sort of thing.</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>[<em>clears throat</em>] I understand that it— somehow you, uh—you acquired a piece of the very first telegraph line that stretched all the way out to California.</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>Yes.</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>And how’d that—how’d that—how’d you end up acquiring that?</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>I didn’t think…</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>[<em>clears throat</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>To bring that today, uh, but we—we have a website that’s—the Florida chapter has a website, and, uh, an outfit in Utah was setting up, um, an exhibit in a museum,<a title="">[5]</a> uh, where at a—at a—at a former Army camp. Uh, when I say former, I’m talking about [American] Civil War-era Army camp [<em>laughs</em>] that was one of the first stations on the Transcontinental Tre—Telegraph Line, and so they wanted some historical reference to the telegraph in their museum there, and, uh, they found our website on the internet and contacted us, and we were able to get them some telegraph instruments and assist them, and some months later, they, uh, contacted us again and said they had come into possession of a link of the original Transcontinental Telegraph Wire—came from Northeastern, uh, Nevada—just across the Utah line in Northeastern Nevada, and a man had found it and had donated, uh, a length of it—I don’t know how much—but had donated a length of it to this museum, and they wanted to know if we would like to have a piece of it, and so they sent us about two and a half feet: about 30 inches of it—a piece about that long, and it’s—it’s—it was a nine gauge, which is heavy, heavy wire. I mean, it’s—it’s almost a quarter, uh—not—not a quarter. Maybe, uh—it’s over an eighth of an inch thick—uh, the—the wire is, and it’s almost impossible to bend it with your bare hands.</p>
<p>It’s—it’s that thick, and it’d been laying out in the, uh—in the open in the desert out there near—near the old, uh, Pony Express route and the, um, stagecoach route that went west through there [<em>coughs</em>], and, um, they, uh—they kept, um—they kept it there, um, um—it—laid out there in the desert, and—and doesn’t rust like it would in—here in Florida, you know? It would all be rusted away [<em>laughs</em>] if that had happened here, and so we had that piece of—of the wire, and we—we debated as a—as an organization what to do with it. It wasn’t big enough to use anywhere really. So we wound up—and we cut it into pieces about, um, six inches long and mounted it on plaques, uh, and with a little bit of a history of it on the back of the plaque, and we use that in our demonstrations. Uh, we take it—take it around where—and we—we have these plaques distributed among the membership, so that there’s al—[always] one available somewhere, but it’s very interesting and—and—the interesting—one of the things about it, that the—it was shipped to me—mailed to me in a padded envelope and it was rolled—folded up, and I tried to straighten it out with my hands when I took it out of the envelope. I could not do it. We had to finally put it in a vice and—and hold down one end of it, and finally got it straightened out, and it was so hard that you couldn’t cut it with wire cutters or anything like that. You had to use a saw to cut it, uh [<em>clears </em>throat] but that was what—the wire that was used in the, uh, original Transcontinental Telegraph Line in 8—finished in 1861 [<em>coughs</em>].<strong> </strong></p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>Wow, incredible. Well, let’s see. Before we, uh—give us a little demonstration, do you have anything else that you’d like to add? Any final thoughts or…</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>Well, I—I don’t know anything off the top of my head. Uh, uh, railroading was an interesting occupation, and I’m sure it’s still is, although I’ve been away from it now for many years. I’ve been retired for 30 years now, so, uh—and I—I’d left the railroad for 20 years before that, so [<em>laughs</em>] it’s been awhile since I’ve been railroading, but, I—I enjoyed the—the—working there, and as I said, I worked as a train dispatcher, which was, um, very complex and complicated job to keep the trains moving.</p>
<p>Uh, when I started, an old time dispatcher said, “Oh, there’s nothing to it.” Said, “You just—you just meet ‘em—don’t meet ‘em too close together or too far apart.” [<em>laughs</em>] Well, its’—that’s an oversimplification, but it—it’s what you—that’s exactly what you were trying to do was—is to move the trains over the—over the, uh, territory wi—in—in the most efficient manner possible, and that, you know—and single track and—and—and, uh, with limited, uh, communication. You had no communication—when I started, you had no communication with—with the people on the train other than handing them up, uh—as they pass an open telegraph office you—you could hand them up orders or, uh, messages of what you want to do, or they could throw off something as they went by, but, um, that was an interesting, uh, occupation and—and very demanding, very challenging. Um, somewhat comparable to an aircraft, uh, uh, air—air controller, except that we couldn’t tell the tr—trains to pull up and go around or—or, uh, fly higher and—and not hit—hit the train ahead of them. They were—they were, uh, consigned to the track. They had to stay on the track, so made—made it a little bit more complicated.</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>Well, I guess, if you would, let’s, uh, give us a little demonstration here. Let me see if I…</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>Well, I’m sorry…</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>Can...</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>That this is not working. I don’t know what it is, but, this—this is the sound [<em>tapping</em>]—this is the sound of—this instrument in—in this is called a sounder, [<em>tapping</em>] and this, uh, box-like object is called a resonator, and the purpose of it is to focus the sound so it can be, uh, heard more clearly, and the can—the Prince Albert tobacco can, we—we now—we call it the “first solid-state amplifier,” because it makes a difference [<em>tapping</em>]. If you can hear the different—[<em>tapping</em>] with and without the can [<em>tapping</em>], and somebody back in the—in the early days of this discovered that you could do that—that, because a railroad agent had more to do than just sit at a desk and listen—listen for this. Uh, he had to be out in the freight warehouse or [<em>inaudible</em>] out—outside with the train going by or something like that, and he needed to be able to hear the dispatcher’s wire when that was happening.</p>
<p>So that, um, uh—that really changed the way that you could do that, and—and [<em>inaudible</em>] I never worked a job that didn’t have a can stuck in the resonator like that, and this—this, uh, is just the same thing and—and—[<em>tapping</em>] with a key here. I’ll move this out of the way. This—this has a key [<em>tapping</em>] and that’s the way you sound it, and you make a dot [<em>tap</em>] by closing the key [<em>tap</em>] real quickly and a dash [<em>tap</em>] by holding it down three times as long as you do for the dot, and you [<em>tapping</em>] do that to spell out, uh, everything that you want to say, and, like texters today, we use a lot of abbreviations. As a matter of fact, many of the abbreviations that texters are using were being used by telegraphers a hundred years ago, but, this is the key [<em>tap</em>] and this is the sounder, and then this called a bug, and it’s called a bug because the logo is a beetle, and nobody knows why they chose that as their logo, but they did.</p>
<p>It started out—if you—if you worked 8 hours or 12 hours a day, which, uh, up until the Hours of Service [HOS] law went into effect in 1908, that’s, uh—you worked 12 hours a day, [<em>tapping</em>] and you worked 12 hours a day with this up and down motion you—you developed telegrapher’s paralysis. We call it carpel tunnel syndrome now, but it was telegrapher’s paralysis then [<em>tapping</em>], and so they began experimenting what you could do to—to alleviate it, and the first thing they did was turn the key on its side and work it back and forth, and they kept working with it and eventually came into this form, and this is now called a vi—a—a speed key, and I can’t demonstrate because my power somehow or another is not working here today [<em>tapping</em>], but, um, you—the speed key—if—if I want to make a—a series of dots with—with this straight key [<em>tapping</em>], it goes like that, but, with the speed key, I can do it just [<em>tap</em>] with—with one movement of my thumb, and so, that relieved the carpel tunnel, but it also speeded everything up.</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>And so, those are the—those are the—the principal instruments that—that were used by landline telegraphers, and that—the—this is called American Morse, and it was used, uh, all over—all over the world, really. It—it just changed the whole world, and then, uh, in the late 8—1800s, [Guglielmo] Marconi discovered that you could send, uh, power through the, uh—through the air and—and modulate it and—and make a—a code—send code through the air, and they did—they did that and—using a—a slightly different code. Uh, the—this code—the American Morse Code has a lot of spaces in it, which makes it, uh, uh, a lot quicker, but, with the—when it went to radio, they couldn’t tell whether the spaces were accidental or intentional, and so they eliminated the space letters and everything became, um, uh, the—the tone then—the length of the tone was—determined whether it was a dot or a dash, and that sounded like this [<em>beeping</em>], but, uh—and that’s still used by ham radio operators and all base radio stations, like your local police station and your fire stations and things of that nature, are required by the Federal Communications Commission to identify themselves every hour, and now they use a computer, but every hour on the hour, uh, these—these stations will identify themselves using International Morse Code, sending their call letters—whatever they might be, and that—your television stations, your—your commercial radio stations, they all have to do this—do that, and they do it. So that, uh, America—I mean, the International Morse Code is still in use, uh, quite a bit with ham radio operators and that. American Morse—the last known use in the United States was in 1983, but th—that was just really an anomaly, because it had—by the mid-70s it had pretty much disappeared, but there’s just this one place out in Montana that still was using it until 1983.</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>That’s fantastic [<em>clears throat</em>]. Mr. McFarland, we really appreciate you sharing your story with us and demonstrating the tools of your trade.</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>Well, I’m happy to do it. Happy to do it.</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>Alright. Well, thank you so much. That will conclude our interview and, uh, we really appreciate you being here with us.</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>Thank you.</p>
<div><br /><div>
<p><a title="">[1]</a> Interstate Commerce Commission.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a title="">[2]</a> Great Atlantic & Pacific Tea Company.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a title="">[3]</a> April 27.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a title="">[4]</a> Also called amateur radio.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a title="">[5]</a> Golden Spike National Historic Site.</p>
</div>
</div>
A&P grocery
abbreviations
ACL
agency checks
Alaska
American Morse Code
Atlantic Coast Line Railroad Company
auditors
audits
Avon Park
Avon Park Atlantic Coast Line Train Station
barge lines
bugs
California
carpal tunnel syndrome
Central Florida Railroad Museum
Chicago, Illinois
communication limits
communications
computer-assisted train dispatching
conscription
CTS
Dallas, Texas
Department of Transportation
DOT
drafts
equal pay
extra boards
FCC
Federal Communications Commission
first solid-state amplifiers
first transcontinental telegraphs
Florida Boom
Frances Perkins Building
freight warehouses
Geoffrey Cravero
grocery clerks
grocery stores
Guglielmo Marconi
ham radio operators
ham radios
Hawaii
historical preservation
HOS
Hours of Service
ICC
International Morse Code
Interstate Commerce Commission
landline telegraphers
landline telegraphs
landline telegraphy
Montana
Morse Telegraph Club, Inc.
Nevada
Ocala
Ocala Union Station
Ohio
orlando
paid vacations
Pony Express
Prince Albert tobacco cans
railroad agents
railroad depots
Railroad Morse
Railroad Safety and Service Agent
railroad stations
railroading
railroads
railways
regulations
resonators
Ronald Reagan
Ronald Wilson Reagan
safety inspections
SAL
Samuel Finley Breese Morse
Samuel Morse
San Francisco, California
Seaboard Air Line Depot
Seaboard Air Line Railroad
social clubs
solid-state amplifiers
sounders
South Carolina
speed keys
stagecoach routes
TAPS
Tavares & Gulf Railroad
telegraph instruments
telegraph keys
telegrapher's paralysis
telegraphers
telegraphs
telegraphy
telephones
teletypes
Tennessee
text abbreviations
The Great Atlantic & Pacific Tea Company
train depots
train dispatchers
train dispatching
train stations
trains
Trans-Alaska Pipeline System
transcontinental telegraphs
UCF
University of Central Florida
Utah
Virginia
Warren McFarland
Washington, D.C.
waybills
Western Union
Winter Garden
wireless telegraphers
wireless telegraphs
wireless telegraphy
World War II
WWII
yard checks
-
https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka/files/original/9758a30bbef0211d459a0125540b3451.pdf
c60e6d25aaa04eb52789bf35b14b4d1f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
Lone Sailor Navy Memorial History Project Collection
Alternative Title
Lone Sailor Collection
Subject
Veterans--Florida
Orlando (Fla.)
United States. Navy
Navy
Sailors--United States
Description
Collection of digital images and oral histories related to the former Recruit Training Center Orlando (RTC Orlando) for the United States Navy. The training center transformed raw recruits into highly effective sailors. This process took place over an intensive eight-week training period, commonly referred to as "boot camp." RTC Orlando occupied roughly one half of the former Naval Training Center Orlando (NTC Orlando), which was located at present day Baldwin Park, Orlando, Florida. Between 1968 and 1994, over 650,000 men and women graduated from RTC Orlando.
Contributor
<a href="http://www.lonesailorfl.com/" target="_blank">Lone Sailor Navy Memorial History Project</a>
<a href="http://digitalcollections.net.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>
Is Part Of
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/24" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project Collection</a>, RICHES of Central Florida.
Language
eng
Type
Collection
Coverage
Naval Training Center, Orlando, Florida
Contributing Project
<a href="http://www.lonesailorfl.com/" target="_blank">Lone Sailor Navy Memorial History Project</a>
<a href="http://digitalcollections.net.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>
Curator
Cepero, Laura
Digital Collection
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a>
External Reference
"<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">About the Project</a>." UCF Community Veterans History Project, RICHES of Central Florida, University of Central Florida. http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/.
"<a href="http://cfnavyleague.org/lone-sailor/" target="_blank">The History</a>." Lone Sailor Navy Memorial History Project. http://cfnavyleague.org/lone-sailor/
"<a href="http://rtcorlando.homestead.com/" target="_blank">The History</a>." RTC Orlando. http://rtcorlando.homestead.com/.
<a href="http://www.lonesailorfl.com/" target="_blank"><em>A Guide to Historic Orlando</em></a>. Charleston, SC: History Press, 2006.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
Oral History of Richard Tobias Sloane
Alternative Title
Oral History, Sloane
Subject
Veterans--Florida
Navy
Orlando (Fla.)
Vietnam War, 1961-1975
Description
An oral history interview of Richard Tobias Sloane (b. 1934), who served in the U.S. Navy from 1964 to 1969, during the Vietnam War. Sloane was born in Queens, New York City, New York, on March 4, 1934. In August of 1964, he was commissioned into the Navy. Sloane served in Vietnam from September of 1967 to September of 1968. He also served on the USS <em>Rockbridge</em>, USS <em>Santa Barbara</em> in River Section 35, the USS <em>Garcia</em>, the USS <em>Wisconsin</em>, and the USS <em>Blue Jacket</em>. Sloane achieved the rank of Captain and earned a Purple Heart, Bronze Star with V Device, Legion of Merit, Combat Action Award, and Navy E Ribbon.<br /><br />This oral history interview was conducted by Carli Van Zandt on March 5, 2014. Interview topics include Sloane's background, joining the Navy, the USS <em>Rockbridge</em>, Officer Candidate School (OCS), the Vietnam War, Naval Training Center (NTC) Orlando, the Grinder, the USS <em>Blue Jacket</em>, airbases in Central Florida, the simulation industry, and the Lone Sailor Memorial Project.
Table Of Contents
0:00:00 Introduction<br />0:02:52 Background<br />0:01:58 Enlistment and USS <em>Rockbridge</em><br />0:05:44 Officer Candidate School<br />0:08:20 Graduation<br />0:09:53 Repair Division Officer<br />0:11:22 Vietnam War<br />0:18:09 Other assignments<br />0:21:52 Wife and children<br />0:24:18 Naval Training Center Orlando<br />0:27:11 Daily life and training at NTC Orlando<br />0:32:31 Advanced training at NTC Orlando<br />0:33:51 Central Florida airbases<br />0:35:39 Simulation industry<br />0:37:01 Hardest aspect, proudest moment, and memories from NTC Orlando<br />0:42:51 Leaving the Navy and keeping in touch with friends<br />0:45:22 Lessons learned, the lasting legacy of NTC Orlando, and the Lone Sailor Memorial Project
Abstract
Oral history interview of Richard Tobias Sloane. Interview conducted by Carli Van Zandt at the Education Building, Room 123, of the University of Central Florida in Orlando, Florida, on March 5, 2014.
Type
Moving Image
Source
<a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/289/rec/1" target="_blank">Sloane, Richard T.</a>. Interviewed by Carli Van Zandt, March 5, 2014. Audio/video record available. Item DP0014912, UCF Community Veterans History Project, Special Collections and University Archives, University of Central Florida Libraries, Orlando, Florida.
Requires
<a href="http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/" target="_blank">Adobe Flash Player</a>
<a href="http://java.com/en/download/index.jsp" target="_blank">Java</a>
<a href="https://get.adobe.com/reader/" target="_blank">Adobe Acrobat Reader</a>
Is Part Of
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, Orlando, Florida.
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/109" target="_blank">Lone Sailor Navy Memorial History Project Collection</a>, UCF Community Veterans History Project Collection, RICHES of Central Florida.
Has Format
22-page digital transcript of original 50-minute and 17-second oral history: <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/289/rec/1" target="_blank">Sloane, Richard T.</a>. Interviewed by Carli Van Zandt, March 5, 2014. Audio/video record available. Item DP0014912, UCF Community Veterans History Project, Special Collections and University Archives, University of Central Florida Libraries, Orlando, Florida.
Conforms To
Standards established by the <a href="http://www.loc.gov/vets/" target="_blank">Veterans History Projects</a>, Library of Congress.
Coverage
Queens, New York City, New York
Officer Candidate School, Newport, Rhode Island
Mekong Delta, Vietnam
Naval Training Center Orlando, Orlando, Florida
Creator
Sloane, Richard Tobias
Van Zandt, Carli
Publisher
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>
Date Created
2014-03-05
Date Issued
2014-09
Date Copyrighted
2014-03-05
Format
application/website
application/pdf
Extent
432 MB
230 KB
Medium
50-minute and 17-second DVD aduio/video recording
22-page digital transcript
Language
eng
Mediator
History Teacher
Civics/Government Teacher
Geography Teacher
Provenance
Originally created by Carli Van Zandt and Richard Tobias Sloane.
Rights Holder
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>
Accrual Method
Item Creation
Contributing Project
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>
Curator
Cepero, Laura
Digital Collection
<a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a>
External Reference
"<a href="http://cfnavyleague.org/lone-sailor/" target="_blank">The History</a>." Lone Sailor Navy Memorial History Project. http://cfnavyleague.org/lone-sailor/
"<a href="http://rtcorlando.homestead.com/" target="_blank">The History</a>." RTC Orlando. http://rtcorlando.homestead.com/.
<a href="http://www.lonesailorfl.com/" target="_blank"><em>A Guide to Historic Orlando</em></a>. Charleston, SC: History Press, 2006.
Click to View (Movie, Podcast, or Website)
<a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/289/rec/1" target="_blank">Sloane, Richard T.</a>
Transcript
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Alright. Well, thank you for coming today. I’m so glad that you made it.</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>My pleasure.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Today is March 5<sup>th</sup>[, 2014] and I’m interviewing Mr. Richard Tobias Sloane, and he served in the United States Navy. Uh, we are doing this history project for the Lone Sailor Memorial [Project]. My name is [Carolyn] Carli Van Zandt, uh, and my cameraperson is Fernando Maldonado. We are interviewing Mr. Sloane as part of, uh, the Community Veteran History Project and Loan Sailor Memorial Project. Uh, recording here today, in the Education Building, Room 123—the conference room—in Orlando, Florida. Mr. Sloane, will you please begin by telling us a little bit about, uh, what branch of service you were in and your rank, uh, which you retired at?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>I was in the United States Navy. I retired as a Captain in [20]06 in the United States Navy. Started my service in 1964 at the Officer Candidate School in Newport, Rhode Island.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Okay. Thank you. Uh, I’m going to get a little background information here. Can you tell us when you were born? Where you was born?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>I was born on March the 4<sup>th</sup>, 1943. Yesterday was my birthday, so this is very appropriate. I was born in, uh, the Borough of Queens, New York City, in the State of New York.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Alright. What did your parents do for a living?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>My father was a, uh—a wholesale merchant in dry goods in New York, on the lower eastside of Manhattan. My mother was a homemaker, and later in her life, she was in retail, uh, store sales in New York—in Long Island, actually.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Um, do you have brothers, sisters?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>I have two older brothers. Uh, my oldest brother was retired Navy Captain also. He attended the United States Naval Academy—Class of 1957, and, uh, the middle brother, um, attended Harvard University, and Harvard, uh, Business School.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Alright. Uh, would you tell me a little about how, uh, your family life may have impacted your decision to, uh, enter the Navy?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, there was no doubt in my mind that my oldest brother, who’s about seven years, uh, my senior, if you will, uh, attended the Naval Academy when I was young, uh, junior high school, uh, person, and watching him go through that academy for four years and then his, uh—the beginning of his military service definitely had an impact my decision to join the Navy. When I completed my studies at Boston University—and in 1964, the—the draft was still in effect—and the choices were to continue my education, at the time, or to be drafted, or to sign up for the service, uh, of my choice, and at the time, I picked that choice to be in the United States Navy. I didn’t realize, at the time, it would be a career choice, uh, but I enjoyed my early years in the service, such that I decided to stick around.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Okay. So tell me more about, um, what impacted your decision to stick around.</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, I had a great first assignment. I came out of college at about 22 years old, uh—maybe even younger, at the time, and, uh, I was assigned to a ship called the USS <em>Rockbridge</em>—hull number APA-228, and that was a, uh—an amphibious troupe transport from the World War II era. Uh, the mission of the ship was to embark Marines—about 800 Marines—and associated cargo, and land on the shore in amphibious landings, and, uh, the, uh, manning of that ship—the Ward Room—if you will, the “Officer Car”—was made up with a lot of, uh, old timers, uh—warrants, mustangs as department heads. People who had been former enlisted[?], came up in the ranks, and they were sort of like—I don’t want to classify them as grandfatherly types—but they were very, uh, mature in there service, and, uh, the Commanding Officers of the ship when I was there, under which I had three Commanding Officers, were also senior Navy Captains who were on their way to major command and, uh, come[sic] out of aviation, and were going to head to larger ships, if you will. So again, they were very self-confident individuals, very accomplished people, and the younger officers, like myself, were all fresh, wet-behind-the-ears college kids, and so it was a very, very, um, engaging environment, um, a very learning environment, while, obviously, there’s a lot of pressure you to anything you do in that Navy environment.</p>
<p>It was such that you—you felt that you was learning, you felt like you were being mentored, uh, and I came away from that tour, uh, very, very, uh, personally fulfilled and—and feeling good about what I was doing. The sense of responsibility, that you got, which has always been, uh, something the Navy has played on for young beginners—that we’re going to give you, uh, tremendous responsibility that your peers, who were out working at Macy’s or selling insurance aren’t going to experience for a long, long time, and I found that to be true, because, uh, they give you things to do, and say, “Here’s a job. Go do it.” And they had enough faith in you to let you do it—to watch you close enough, so they wouldn’t let you mess up too bad. So it was a very, very good experience, as I look back on it over the years. I think that was principally what made me feel comfortable about staying in the Navy.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>You mentioned that you got this, uh, officer start before you did this first duty assignment through, um, Officer Candidate School, or OCS?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Correct.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Could you tell me a little bit about, um, what that experience is like?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, talk about the shock of your life. You come out of a university, a—very, uh, loving home, uh, environment, as I grew up. Um, so you leave the university. Again, you’ve had a sense of what service life might be like, because of my brother’s experience, but obviously, you really don’t know exactly what you’re getting into, and I remember, at the time, there was only a ferry that crossed from the main land over to Newport, [inaudible] Island, unless you wanted to go all the way up and around, by Fall River[, Massachusetts] and Providence[, Rhode Island]. Today, they have a bridge, but I remember on that ferry, as I reported for duty to go to OCS, and looking out over the water and said, what <em>have I done? </em>[<em>laughs</em>]. That sort of thing, because I didn’t know what I was headed for, but it was also a very, uh, broadening and lightening experience, because most of my childhood and my college experience, for the most part, was very, um—I forget what the right word is—but very, uh contained.</p>
<p>Uh, it wasn’t broadening. It was broadening educationally and, again, growing up in New York, you have a broadened sense of what life could be like, but I had never, uh, been in an environment with people from the South, people from the West, people from all sorts of cultures, uh—that sort of thing, and now you’re thrown into a barracks environment, uh, which is not quite the same as a college dormitory or fraternity house. Um, you’re—you’re being asked to do things in a very regimented way, uh, being held very, very responsible and accountable for the most minute, uh, daily life, uh, activities, and so while it wasn’t a shock, uh, it was certainly different. and it is a crash course, so your—things that, uh, people in NROTC [Naval Reserve Officers Training Corps] programs or Academy programs are getting years and years of time to, uh, uh acculture[sic] to and learn. You’re getting a crash course. It’s not that—it wasn’t that challenging or difficult, but you certainly had pay attention, and again, aside from the academics, the military side, um—it was just an enlightening experience. Mostly, in—in the exposure to people of different cultures, uh, uh, than ever before.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Graduation day.</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Wow. You know, the funny thing was, uh, I can’t remember exactly—the whole program was about four months, and, uh, at about maybe three weeks before you graduate, uh, you get your orders, and the way you get your orders is, uh, you’re in a company of 30 men—maybe your class had a couple hundred in it, but, um—so you’re in a company of 30 men, and you get a—a message, if you will, to report to the barracks chief or the company chief at the company headquarters, and he’s going to tell you where you’re going, and I’ll never forget, he—he said—he said “Sloane, you’re going to the USS <em>Rockbridge</em>, APA228.” and I said, “Chief, what’s that?” [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p>I had no idea, because with all that indoctrination, I don’t think we ever got down into the grass as to ship types, you know? it was mostly here’s how you, uh, get from point A to point B, here’s how you do this, a lot of PT [physical training], uh, this, that, and the other thing, a lot of naval history. Uh, but I—I remember to this day, he told me where I was going, I had no idea what kind of ship it was or anything of that nature. So, uh, that was a little before graduation, but graduation day, you’re filled with pride, you have your ensign stripe[?], uh, and your off on a real, real adventure, you know? You’re glad to be leaving that environment, but you’re full of apprehension, because now, you’re going to be really entering the workforce, sort of to speak.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br />‘</strong>Kay. So you’re trained as a—a new ensign. What was your actual job as a new ensign?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, my first job, again, was in the engineering department, and I was the [Repair] Division Officer for the repair division. The Division Officer—you’re in charge of a group of enlisted men and—with a specific function—and their job was metalsmith and woodworking, if you will, on this ship. So, um, they were doing all that type of work. It was a small group. Uh, I was sort of fortunate and respected, instead of being put immediately in charge of a large division, which might’ve been at least 30 men or 40 men. It was small, compact.</p>
<p>Again, a lot of good leadership, you know? It’s always the Chief Petty Officer in the Navy who really knows what’s going on and runs the Navy. and especially when you’re brand new, I mean, you—even with what little book-learning you got, you have not a great idea on the technical aspects of what the people are doing, you’re worried about all the different aspects of being able to stand the watch, drive a ship, um, do your daily duties, oversee the people who are working for you—or working with you, uh,—that sort of thing, and again, it was a lot of—I don’t want to use the word “old timers”—but Senior Chief Petty Officers, uh, who had a lot of experience and confidence in their work, um, middle-grade Petty Officers. It was a good bunch. It was the right place for me to go for a start, because I had a lot of support from below.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Okay. Um, your early assignments—it sounds like you had a lot of on-the-job training, do you think it is because it was the Vietnam [War] era?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane <br /></strong>Well, uh, if you’re talking about the first ship, absolutely, you know? I mean, uh, at the time, a lot of people were going over to Vietnam. Uh, my second tour duty was in Vietnam, and by the time I have spent about two and a half years on that ship, I had, uh, changed jobs on the ship. I was, uh, made gunnery officer on that ship, which was—gave me an opportunity to learn another aspect of, uh, ship ward responsibility and duties, and so again, when I, uh, finished up that tour in about two in a half years, uh, I was very confident. I had, uh, been promoted one grade from ensign to Lieutenant Junior grade. Very proud, and, uh, left that ship with a great deal of confidence, I think.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Great. Um, can you tell me a little about your Vietnam experience?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>I [<em>laughs</em>]…</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>As much as you can.</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, uh, absolutely. Um, Funny thing is, um: I—I mentioned earlier that I worked with these great people, you know? Uh, uh, as many warrants and LDOs [limited duty officers] who had maturity, a lot of experience, um, and how I got to Vietnam, I always thought was an interesting story. The Navy Bureau of Naval Personnel put out a newsletter about every month that they—a hard copy paper newsletter, and they went to every ship, and it—it really talked about what assignments were available to different people and different grade, what was happening in the personnel management area, um, and they came out with an article that said they were looking for Lieutenants Junior grade to be the Commanding Officers of LSTs, uh— “Landing Ship Tanks” —uh, to serve as mother ships for river patrol boats in Vietnam. So these LSTS would be at the mouths of the river, they would be the mother ship for 10 or 20 small river patrol boats, and they wanted Lieutenant JGs [Junior Grade] to be, uh, XOs. They wanted them to be XOs—Executive Officers, and I read that article, and, uh, my boss, at the time, was a Lieutenant, uh—LDO—an “old salt,” who I greatly admired, and he read that article. They were looking for Lieutenants to be Commanding Officers—Lieutenant JGs was to XOs to these LSTs, and he reads this article, and he says—he says, “Boy, I want to be a CO of a, LST.” And he said, “Rich, come be my XO.” You know, “We’ll go together.” I’ll—he’ll be the CO and I’ll be the XO of this LST.</p>
<p>Well, [<em>clears throat</em>] to go from being a Division Officer to an Executive Officer is highly unusual. Uh, but here is an opportunity, because it fit the mold, uh, of what they were looking for in Vietnam. I said, “Absolutely.” and I immediately wrote my detailer—the guy in Washington[, D.C.] who made these assignments—and—and, uh, I said, “I want to go be an XO on an LST, just like you wrote you needed, uh—uh, JGs to be XOs on LST. I want that job.” He wrote back—[<em>clears throat</em>] he said—corresponded back, “You know, you’re a little too junior,” because you’re in the JG billet for a number of years, uh—JG rank. Said, “You’re a little too junior, but we have lots of other jobs available for ya in Vietnam.” I said, “Okay.” I said, “But don’t give me a desk job. I want a job where the action is.” Next thing you know, I had a letters to a river patrol section that drove little plastic boats on the rivers of the Mekong Delta. So that’s how I got there.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Wow.</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Yeah, I know, and then [<em>laughs</em>]—and then, my boss—I don’t think he ever got the job of CO. He did—he may have gotten an LST, but I don’t know that he had one off of Vietnam. Um, I spent a year. The tour that you got was a year. It was a small outfit—maybe a hundred people, if that. Uh, Most of them were assigned to run the boats, and the others were assigned as maintenance people. Uh, there was[sic], uh, two Lieutenants and three Lieutenants Junior grade, who made the officer structure. Then you had a number of Chief Petty Officers, and a host of, UH, other enlisted personnel, who manned the boats, and we spent a year patrolling the rivers of Vietnam.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>What impact do you think this experience had on you?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, it had a tremendous impact. Um, you know, you sad[sic] in the sense that you were at war. You were certainly, uh, aware of that. Um, I think it was Winston [Leonard Spencer- ]Churchill who said something like, “There is nothing more exhilarating than being shot at and missed.”<a title="">[1]</a> Uh, and I had that experience. Um, uh, we’ve lost a number of people from our section to combat, while I was there, and I respect—I consider myself fortunate that I—that I, uh, um, didn’t have a harrowing[?] experience that—that cost me more than it did, so to speak. Um, uh, it was interesting to be in country, in—in that environment—to meet people of Vietnam, um, in many different, uh, ways, if you will. Um, and that’s about it.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Do you think, um, your time through these, uh—the last two assignments that you just described help shape your leadership style?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Uh, yeah, I think to some degree. That’s hard to say, um, how you developed, what—what it was that caused you to develop your leadership. I think more, uh—I don’t know. I only speak for myself, but I think more it was my upbringing than anything else. There’s all sorts of leaders—different people. Some lead in fear, some lead in—in different manners, and I just think it was the way that I was brought up that really, uh, set the foundation for my leadership style. I think a lot of your style is not so much developed in those early years, but further as you go along, you get more responsibility. Certainly there was a lot of responsibility from day one at different levels, and—and very significant responsibility, but my impression was: the further along you got, the more leadership experience you had. You had the opportunity to observe other leaders, you know? The—the common phrase, as well, eh, you know; “I’m not going to do it like he did it when I grow up.” That sort of thing. So, uh, how you developed it is—is a, in my opinion—for me, at least, is a combination of a lot of things: my personal upbringing, the experiences that I had as you climb that ladder can really shape.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Thank you. What other, um, duty assignments did you take after your tour in Vietnam and prior to coming to NTC [Naval Training Center] Orlando?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Right. I came back from Vietnam and I was, uh, selected to go what then called the “Navy Destroyers School,”<a title="">[2]</a> which was really a course to prepare you to be a department head on a destroyer-type, um, ship. Um, that was a six-month course in Newport, Rhode Island. I met my wife there, during that time period. I courted her, eh, in—in those years—that time frame. Um, Went to USS <em>Garcia</em> DE-1040. Home-ported out of Newport, Rhode Island, as the Weapons [Systems] Officer.</p>
<p>Um, from there, uh, I have to think back. I went to the USS—oh, excuse me. From there, I went to, uh, instructor duty at what was then the beginning of the Navy Surface Warfare Officers School and served as an instructor to ensigns, who were coming from their commissioning source before they were going to surface ships, and, uh, that was about three-year tour in Newport, and then I went to USS <em>Milwaukee</em> AOR-2—I think it was. Homeport in Norfolk, Virginia, a multiproduct ship, uh, stationed out of Norfolk, Virginia. Great tour of duty, great, uh, shipmates there. Again, uh, a tremendous learning experience as a department head for the deck department. Uh, A lot of responsibility, a lot of work there. From <em>Milwaukee</em>, we went to shore duty in Millington, Tennessee—a little bit north of Memphis, where the Navy had its, uh, training headquarters, and, uh, I served on, uh, the staff of, uh, Naval Education and Training [Command] —technical training—in Memphis—Millington.</p>
<p>Uh, from there, after a short one year tour, um, I went to Hawaii, uh, to be, uh, Executive Officer on the USS <em>Hassayampa</em>, an oiler in, uh, Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. Another great tour. Uh, I think the, uh, thing that made my career so gratifying was the great shipmates and the leaders that I worked with over the years on these ships. From Hawaii, came back to Norfolk and served on the staff of, uh, Commander Carrier Group 8. Went to sea on aircraft carriers as a Surface Warfare Advisor, if you will—surface op[eration]s officer. Completed that tour, working for a couple of flag officers, and from there, let’s see. Where’d we go? [U.S.] Naval War College, I believe. Tour[?] in Newport, Rhode Island, at the Naval War College. A very int—interesting time, and then went to, um, command the USS <em>Santa Barbara</em>, uh, AE-28, out of Charleston, South Carolina. Was on board there for about two in half years, in command of the <em>Santa Barbara</em>. Went from there to, uh, the Executive Officer of Service Schools[sic] Command. [Naval Station] Great Lakes—very large training activity, uh, up in Great Lakes, Illinois, just north of Chicago[, Illinois], and from there, I came to Orlando, Florida, in command of the Service School Command Activity here at the Naval Training Center Orlando. So it was all in route, but we got there.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>That’s quite a list</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Yeah, I’ll say.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Alright. This one’s about your wife. You ready for this one?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>I’m sorry? Sure.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>This one’s about your wife. They say in the military, you great two for one. How did you do with the family, the military, and the traveling? How did she deal[?] with that?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, we were very fortunate. I’ve always felt that way. Um, my wife was ready, willing, and able for the adventure. She was a Navy nurse actually, when I met her when she was in college, and she was, uh, attending on a—a little bit of a scholarship at the end of her college tour, where, in exchange for tuition assistance, she went in the Navy as a Navy nurse, and in those days, if you became pregnant, they mustered you out, and so she was in for a little over a year in an half, until she became pregnant without first child, and had to muster out. So she had a little taste of the Navy, besides from the fact of growing up—not going up—but going to school in Newport, Rhode Island, as she did, which is where I met her, uh, she was exposed to all the Navy activity that went on in Newport, Rhode Island, at the time.</p>
<p>Um, so we enjoyed the Navy. Nobody enjoys leaving your family for six months at a time and Nowadays, sailors are leaving there families for even longer, but, uh, typical six-month deployment then was not something you looked forward to from a family standpoint-of-view, but she—she understood that and, uh, was a great Navy wife. You know, they say, uh, a Navy wife’s the toughest job in the Navy, and I believe it 110 percent, and our children, uh, my wife, and I always—we moved around a lot, you know? And describing where I went, it was here, there. We came back a couple times, but it was never back to back tours in the same town, and unlike some, who said, “Oh, I don’t want to leave Norfolk,” or “I gotta stay in San Diego[, California].” We were always up for that adventure, and after a year or two went by, the kids were always saying, “Where are we going next?” That sort of thing. Got a little tougher when they got to the junior high/high school age, but up ‘til then, they were always ready, willing, and able to—“Let’s find a new place to go.” And, uh, that was pretty good. I’d always come home, after having spoken with the detailer, getting the word on where we were going. Uh, I’d call home and say, “Honey, Are you sitting down?” And she knew that was the signal [<em>laughs</em>] that we were going somewhere. Yep.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Good. Um, well, what did you know about the region of Orlando and the military here?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>I’m sorry.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>What did you know about the region of Orlando?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, I didn’t know anything about it expect that they had a mirror of activity of Great Lakes on a smaller scale. Uh, Navy training activity, smaller in numbers, but the mission was basically the same, and I lobbied to get that job of Commanding Officer. I say lobbied. You know, I—you talked to your detailer and say “Hey. I hear there’s a job opening in Orlando. Uh, it seems to fit. I’m training in education subspecialist. I’ve done the tour as Executive Officer here. Um, and I hear the Commanding Officer tour for the Service School Command is open there.” I was fortunate to get that assignment, and again, uh, the only, uh—the biggest impression was if the kids were a little, uh, anxious in moving in that point in time, because they were in junior high [school] and getting little more into socializing. Uh, When I told them that we’d probably have a pool at the house, that settled the deal [<em>laughs</em>]. “Let’s go.” They were ready to pack and move—move down here. So I didn’t know much about it. That was it. Um, that was it.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>How long were you here at NTC Orlando?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, we got here in 1988, and I retired from that job in 1991. So…</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>That was the tour.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Um, what were your overall impressions of the recruits and their training, during that time down [inaudible] your time at the base?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Oh, I thought it was terrific. You know, I was—really, there were three activities. You had the Recruit Training Center, You had the Nuclear Power School, and you had Service Schools Command. So, uh, while we did have some interaction in between all those activities, um, the sailors that—that I was seeing, uh, who were coming, from the most part, out of boot camp—uh, We did have some coming to advanced schools, uh, from the fleet, but the majority of them are coming right out of boot camp—uh, just top quality, you know?</p>
<p>People have said that the quality of our servicemen and women today are—is better than ever, and they have said it for years and years, and I firmly believe it. A lot of people who say, “Ah, it’s not like the old Navy,” and they talk about things like uniforms and discipline, which is always important, but the, uh, quality, the intellect, uh, the upbringing—if you will—uh, of the people that[sic] are coming into the service, I thought was terrific, and I saw that throughout my career. You know, you’re in that moving stream, so you don’t always see the difference, but when you think about it, and you stop and you think, and you say, <em>Look at the quality of the Electronic Technicians School, who are going through Torpedoman [Mate] School</em>—some of these highly technical courses—You have to really, you know, learn some significant stuff or hone their skills. Um, we had top-quality people.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Alright. Um, Daily life for your, uh, Navy recruits and your Navy sailors, that[sic] are there training for the schools—what was it like?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, again, the people that[sic] were in my school, for the most part, were brand new, coming from out of 8-12 weeks of Recruit Training Center. So you still had to be aware of their conduct more off the base than on the base. Remember, these are young people who been cooped up at recruit training, where they didn’t get any liberty for months on end, if you will. Now, they’ve been cut loose, so to speak. Uh, yes[?], you go to class, but you had your weekends off, sort of thing.</p>
<p>I think, on the whole, uh, and really across the board, we had very few discipline problems—things of that nature. Again, in a—in an organization that size, deal with that demographic, there will be individuals who really weren’t suited for the service, or who had a momentary lapse in judgment, shall we say, and so that’s typical in any large organization. I don’t think it—it’s not so visible in civilian—civilian life, you know? If some fella who’s working on the line in General Motors [Company] goes out and gets arrested for DUI [Driving Under the Influence], or something like that, General Motors doesn’t really hold him to task. Well, the military’s a little different on how it, uh, wants its people to represent the organization.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Okay. Uh,couple of, uh, questions here, uh, for those who—who don’t know. Could you explain to us what the Grinder was?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>What the what?</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>The Grinder was.</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Oh, the Grinder [<em>laughs</em>]. Well, I got very familiar with the Grinder at OCS, because the Grinder was where you—in OCS, you walked off punishment. I mean, it was the parade ground, and it was usually a paved a, uh—asphalt, uh, parade ground, uh, on which you’d have formal parades, but OCS—if you—if you didn’t make your bed right, or there was a dust bunny loose, or if your shoes weren’t shined, uh, when the other folks were going on liberty on Saturday, you were out there marching for two or three hours. Uh, And again, at—at boot camp, the Grinder was, again, the place where graduation was held, but again, uh, conduct infractions were marched off often times.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Alright, and, um, the purpose of the USS <em>Blue Jacket</em>?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Yeah, the <em>Blue Jacket</em> was, uh, a wooden replica, if you will, of a ship—a destroyer-type ship, and it had—internally, it had classrooms. Externally, it had fittings that you would find on, uh, a real ship. a life boat, or a whale boat, if you will, that could be lowered, raised, chalks, and bits, and lines, anchor chain, and halyards, and all the things that a sailor in—in the field of seamanship might encounter on a real ship, and so, uh, they can go on board that—that trainer, um, uh, and, uh, do the things that they would be asked to do out in the fleet, and they could also hold classes there. Uh, it was a—a fixture, if you will. A lot of people were sad to see it go.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Okay. What kind of social life existed among the recruits on the base through the MWR—Morale, Welfare, and Recreation?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Right. Uh, the interesting fact is: when I retired from the Navy in 1991, uh, the first position I took as a civilian was director of the USO [United Service Organization], here in Central Florida, Which, in a sense, was responsible a little bit for the MWR. I mean, the base had its own MWR organization, which was really the root of it. Uh, when I was on active duty, I personally took advantage of it. They had great gym, and weights, and facilities, and pool—all those sorts of things that you would want on the base. They had opportunities for sailors to buy tickets to local events and theme parks—uh, the typical Morale, Welfare and Rec, uh, support system. The USO was there also, primarily to support, uh, the families that came to see the recruits graduate every week at—at, uh, the Naval Training Center, but, uh, the MWR ran some great programs. They always were there. I remember the people who were—for the most part, many were retired military who were running the programs. They had a golf course, which was, uh, one of the premiere, I think, spots in town, to play golf for the retired Navy community and active duty when they were on liberty. There was also a smaller course down by, uh—by the [McCoy] Air Force Base, or was then a civilian airport. They had a small place down there. They had camping gear you could check out. Um, Just, really great support. I think that was an asset for this—this community—the Navy community.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Okay. Um, did they have a local base newspaper?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>They did have a local base newspaper, and for the life of me, I’d have to think. I’d have to wake up at 3 in the morning to remember the name of it. I think it was <em>The Navigator</em> or something like that, and the fella named Jim Allen ran it, when I was there. He was sort of the—the editor. Uh, a great asset. I think it came out once a week, but Again, it covered the news, and all the good news, and, uh, that sort of thing. I—I got very familiar with the paper. I always wanted to make sure they—that if my activity had something to promote, it was in there, and it—they did a great job. It was a great asset.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br />‘</strong>Kay. After basic training, what other types of schools did you guys offer here at NTC?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Right. Well, Service School Command had four, uh, ratings, if you will—trade—Trade skills that they trained to. Uh, one was electronics technician, one was torpedoman, uh, one was quartermaster, and the other was signalman. So again we did that, and Nuclear Power School—they had two different, uh, schools, if you will: Nuclear Power A School, and I can’t for the life of me recall what the other division was called, but it was sort of like a lower division and an upper division, and their training, um—it went up to a lot of the skills and requirements of operating nuclear power plants. Uh, they had a lot of senior officers, who would go into command of nuclear powered ships, who went through that program. Very, very, uh, effective training program.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Alright, alright[?]. Um, did you have any shore maintenance that was done here? Did anything get sent back to have work done here locally for work done…</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>You know…</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>From the ships?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>I don’t believe that we did. I think, um, most of any maintenance that went on was supporting, uh, what was happening at the base, uh—that sort of thing, but it wasn’t like equipment was coming back from the fleet</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Yeah[?].</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>For maintenance.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zand<br /></strong>Mmhmm.</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Because that was all done at the fleet site’s shore locations, if you will.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>What about airbases? Uh, ‘cause we have airbases here. Were we doing any work for the airbase maintenance?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>No, again, the Navy, um—a lot of that air training was done in Memphis, where a lot of the air raidings were done in Millington, if you will.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Mmhmm.</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Again, um, if you’re talking about, like, [Naval Air Station] Jacksonville, which had a Naval Air Station up there and added their own—their facilities up there. So we really weren’t training aviation raidings.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>So our airbases here had been pretty much downgraded?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Um…</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>The old airbases?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, Naval Air Station Sanford became the Orlando-Sanford…</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>[inaudible]?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Uh, International, uh, Airport. Um, uh, the Orlando International Airport was McCoy Air Force Base. Um, and, um, it’s always, uh, enjoyable when I drive down there and have a moment to scoot in by where the old [Boeing] B-52 [Stratofortress] is parked.<a title="">[3]</a> I think so many people in this community don’t know it’s there, haven’t had the opportunity to go down there where you can walk right up to it and kick the tires on this gigantic airplane. Up in, uh, Orlando-Sanford—which I’m sure the locals don’t know about—uh, there was a small civilian community, uh, that, uh decided to refurbish a [North American RA-5C] Vigilante, an A-5 aircraft, which is on display, uh, at the entrance to the airport up there. My wife and I had occasion to work with that committee and help, uh, put it in place, and, uh, that’s—that’s a sight, I’ll tell ya, and they’re working on refurbishing other aircraft for display up there.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Great[?].</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Yeah.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Now, I know we had Tactical Air Command and Army Air Force[s] Training Command here, at one time. Did you have an occasion to work on any joint exercises with them?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>No, that was way before my time.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>That was when they wore the leather helmets.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>They have—the do still have the simulator training and stuff that goes on here with the [U.S.] Joint Forces [Command]? Did you…</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, the, uh…</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Participate in any of that?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>The Navy—the, um, Naval Air Warfare Training Center [Systems Division]…<a title="">[4]</a></p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Mmhmm.</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Here in Orlando, is part of the Research Park activity, the military’s presence, uh, joint services are there, mostly contracting for, uh, training and simulation work. That’s why all of these defense contractors have set up shop here in Orlando, so that they can have close act[sic]—access to those folks, but there’s a lot of activity taking on—taking in that area, right here in Orlando. Very important to the community.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Right. I know the, uh, base has tied to developing technology and simulations. Were you involved in any of the future simulation exercises that were currently…</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>No, really…</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Conducted by the military?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>That all used to be located at the Naval Training Center, and, of course, as it expanded, uh, I remember—I can’t tell you the exact year, but it was when I was in service here that they built the [Luis] De Florez Center, here in the Research Park, and moved that operation out there, and grew it, and had just a tremendous expansion of not only that joint service activity out there, but again , the growth in the Research Park of defense contractors who have come here to Orlando, but I did not work directly with the training and simulation activities here.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Okay. Thank you. Um, what’s the hardest thing you remember doing while you were, um, a Commander at the NTC?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Pushups.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Pushups? [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>] Yeah, well, you, um—I think “hardest” is a tough word. When you say “hardest,” uh, you know, I—I’ll change it over to what was the most, uh, difficult, uh, and that was the discipline. Um, Having to, uh, work with young people, who, again, had a lapse in—in judgment and came before you, because of some infraction—some minor, some not so minor, but it was always, I say, a little disappointment—maybe a little heartfelt, because it—in the back, you’ll say to yourself, uh, <em>This youngster can do better. </em>You’ve tried to provide them and your team to[?] guidance. Everybody makes a mistake, once in a while, and—and while there were those who, you know, were more than willing to atone for their sins, so to speak, and get back on track. Eh, there was the rare exception who was not the right person for the service and you had to ask them to leave, and, uh, I think—so when you say what was the “hardest,” it was that. You felt like to some degree, you failed. Now, some degree you—you can’t change some people—that sort of thing. So that was probably the most difficult, really.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Alright. From the most difficult, when did you feel the most proud at NTC?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, I think, um, every time you had a graduation, you know? Uh, every time you set sailor from your school out to the fleet, and you felt that they were—your team had prepared them, uh, very well to do the job, and that they would go out, and the people in fleet were going to look back and say, “Now, that sailor came from NTC Orlando. He or she was trained right.”</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Okay. Um, is there a particular story, um, from your time at the NTC that you’ll never forget?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Oh, there’s a million of them. A million of them. We used to—we had a lot of fun. I mean, if you don’t have fun—that’s not to say that every day was a good day, uh, but if you don’t come away, uh, with a balance sheet that says you had more fun than not, you’re probably either not doing it right or don’t belong there and, uh,every year, uh, the, uh, Navy-Marine Corps Relief Society would hold a fund drive. Navy-Marine Corps Relief Society is just what it sounds. It’s a[sic] organization—civilian organization—that, uh, provides release services for men and women in the Navy and the Marines who have had hardship. Whether it’s a house fire, a death in the family, some serious illness, they—they’re there to support with finances and services, if[?] necessary.</p>
<p>So every year they had a fund drive Throughout the Navy, and our little piece at the Navy Training Center broke down the individual commands, and what we did, for the time that I was there, we had a little carnival, or a cookout, or whatever every year in support of that, and my wife and I would put on a skit every year. So we did about three skits, during the time I was there, and [<em>laughs</em>]—and, uh, let’s see if I can remember them in the right order. One year, we did, uh a sk—it wasn’t a skit, but it was a song called “Lydia and the Tattooed Lady,” which [Julius] “Groucho” [Henry] Marx made famous, and I dressed up as Lydia the Tattooed Lady. My wife dressed up as Groucho Marx. The Navy band came and played the music.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>And out we went and did it for the crowd, and then one year, we did, uh, from, uh, <em>South Pacific</em>, uh—uh, the number “Honey Bun,” where—if you’re not familiar with it—this, um, senior sailor gets dressed up in a grass skirt and, um—and, um, uh, the Navy nurse dresses up as a sailor and sings about, uh, his girlfriend—his honey bun. So I dressed up in the grass skirt, and my wife dressed up in the sailor suit, and sang the song, and the Navy band played along, and then the last year we did, uh, “Get Me to the Church on Time” from <em>My Fair Lady</em>. So there I was in—in bridal regalia and she was, uh, dressed up as a, uh, groom going to the church, and we had great fun doing that. It made—let’s just say it made the base newspaper [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>That sounds wonderful.</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Yeah.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Um, were there any other areas of the base that were of particular importance to you or the sailors?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, one of things, you—you know, everything was important, whether it was the commissary or what have you, but I remember Lake Baldwin, you know, which Baldwin Park is named after, if you will, and so many of the, uh, people who had the opportunity would go out there and fish on Lake Baldwin, or be at one of the clubs, whether it was the enlisted club or officer’s club, which looked out on Lake Baldwin. It was sort of, um, just the center of things, not necessarily geographically, but, uh, when you drove home, you went by it. That sort of thing. It was always there. The sort of Place a lot of people, uh, looked forward to seeing, or recreating on, what have you. The Maple Hospital overlooked Lake Baldwin. The golf course was off of Lake Baldwin. Uh, that sort of thing I remember very much.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Um, I know what you did when you left the Navy. You went to work for the USO. Do you recall the day your service ended?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>The day my service ended? Yeah. Well, you know, like most senior people in the service, they have some sort of retirement ceremony for you. Change of command is what it really was, where, um, uh—a good friend of mine, uh, Captain Harry Smith—U.S. Navy retired, still here in Central Florida, uh,—relieved me of that job, and that was a very emotional day. It may not have be the—my last day—maybe it was the last day. Uh, it was just, uh, a very emotional time for me, um, in concluding that service, and reflecting back on all the years of service, all the assignments, the family, uh that sort of thing. So that’s my reflection on my last day, if you will</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Have you kept in touch with people from the Navy?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Oh, absolutely. Um, [<em>laughs</em>] there’s one warrant officer, uh, who served with me in Vietnam. He was the maintenance officer for the river section, and he, uh, sort of, uh, made it his business to stay in touch with, uh, those of us who were still around, and so, um, an email contact with him. As I said, Captain Smith, who relieved me of the Naval Training Service School Command job, um, was a good personal friend here. Dave Arms, retired Navy Captain, who was Commanding Officer of the [U.S.] Naval Reserve Center here in Orlando for a while, uh—still here, and, uh, we stay in touch. Um, you hear from some people every once in a while. One of the most poignant things I recall, uh, is: many, many, years went by, uh, after I had left Vietnam, and as I said, we lost a couple of people in our section, and I, over the years, received just a handful of correspondence from, uh, relatives of the people we lost, um, asking about them, and I responded to those people, and that was, in a way, staying in touch.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Was that hard?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Oh, it—well, it was hard on—it wasn’t hard. Uh, I was glad to hear from them and to be able to tell them that, uh, their relative had served honorably.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Um, what values or characteristics do you believe that the Navy made, um—that instilled in you a great impression for the rest of your life?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, I think discipline, and I—I mean that in the finest sense of the word. Organization, uh, good order, wanting to see things in the right place, um, making decisions, you know—right or wrong. Somebody’s gotta make that decision. Uh, working with others towards a common goal—that sort of thing.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Your lasting legacy with the, um, NTC in Orlando and the Navy’s legacy, um, in Central Florida—what do you think, um, is the lasting legacy in Orlando?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, I think the lasting legacy [<em>sniffs</em>] is a couple of different things. One is: people, like myself, who are here and remain here, who chose to stay for many different reasons. Uh, but we have a tremendous veterans’ population here. People who served here and came back—I see a lot of that up in Sanford. You know, people—there’s a lot of, um, people who don’t, uh, know about the Naval Air Station Sanford, and, uh—and I had the opportunity to meet a lot of them during the restoration of the vigilante aircraft. Boy, they came out of the woodwork, um, for that, and so that’s one, uh—one thing. I think what we’re doing at—at, um, Baldwin Park, with the Lone Sailor Memorial [Project] is a great, great thing. Uh, that will stand forever and, uh, when generations go by, people will still know that there was a Naval Training Center activity here, hundreds and thousands of young men and women passed through here in service to their nation. Um, you can’t do more than that.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>How do you think that the former Navy personnel would like to see or reminded, um, at the memorial?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, I think that the Lone Sailor Memorial is a very, very appropriate, uh, recognition of what took place here over the years. I think, uh, there’s so much pride in—in veterans. I don’t care whether they did 20 years or a four-year hitch in the Navy. I have rarely spoken to an individual who served, especially in the Navy, uh, who didn’t come away saying “It was a good experience for me.” That sort of thing.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Okay. Um, when we’re looking at, uh, designing the [Blue Jacket] Park, what do you think they would like to see at the park?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Oh, nautical—Things of the nautical nature. I remember, when I [<em>laughs</em>] was, uh—had command at the Naval Training Center, and one of things, I think—my recollection of up at the Great Lakes is the—by—by virtue of the fact that it was a very, uh—I don’t want to use “old” in the wrong word—but it had been there for…</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Since 1903,<a title="">[5]</a> I think. They had accumulated a lot of maybe history there. Whether it was an anchor, or a gun, or what have you, and so as you walked around that base, if you will, a [inaudible] you saw a lot of these things And You knew you were at a military facility or a naval facility, and when I came to Orlando, one of things I asked my, uh, team to do was to bring some of those Navy artifacts to—to our activity, and I’ll never forget, uh, we brought two big—what we call “24-inch searchlights”—no longer in use in the fleet, but these, uh—If you see the movies and you see the big arc lights things searching for planes in the sky, and I, uh—I charged one of our officers. Uh, I said, uh, you know, “Get in touch with the—the old shipyards, who[sic] have this stuff in excess, and let’s see if we can’t get one.” They did. They brought it and it was mounted in front of the school. they got a, uh, uh, four-barrel—I think it was a 4-barrell—a 40-millimeter gun mount brought it down and got it there, and that was—when the base was closed, I think they transferred it, to my recollection, to the, uh, Oviedo High School and JROTC [Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps] unit, and they may still be there. I haven’t been in the back lot for a while.</p>
<p>So I think—and I remember that, uh, the torpedo—and it was a very strong World War II torpedo CO—submarine community here in Orlando, and I remember over at, eh, um—I don’t—it wasn’t near the USO, but it was somewhere over there in that vicinity, near the RTC [Recruit Training Center Orlando]. They had got these old World War II torpedoes and put them on display, and so I think, eh, you know, any of those type materials that can be brought, appropriately placed in and around Blue Jacket Park, uh, would really be a great reminder of, uh, the service that these people gave to their country.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Thank you.</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Mmhmm.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>You’ve exhausted my list. Is there anything else you’d like to share with me?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Have a great Navy Day.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Aw.</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Thank you so much</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>You’re welcome.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>I appreciate your time.</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>My pleasure.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>I’m ready to stop recording.</p>
<div><br /><div>
<p><a title="">[1]</a> Correction: “There is nothing more exhilarating than to be shot at with no result.”</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a title="">[2]</a> Correction: Naval Destroyers School.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a title="">[3]</a> B-52 Memorial Park.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a title="">[4]</a> Correction: Naval Air Warfare Center Training Systems Division (NAWCTSD).</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a title="">[5]</a> Correction: Naval Station Great Lakes was approved in 1904 and dedicated in 1911.</p>
</div>
</div>
A-5
advanced training
aircraft
airplanes
airports
auxiliary service
B-52
B-52 Memorial Park
Baldwin Park
basic training
Blue Jacket Park
Boeing B-52 Stratofortress
Bronze Star with V Device
BUPERS
Bureau of Naval Personnel
captains
Carli Van Zandt
Carolyn Van Zandt
Central Florida Research Park
Combat Action Award
Commander Carrier Group 8
Community Veterans History Project
conscription
CVHP
Dave Arms
deployments
destroyers
discipline
drafts
engineering
engineers
ensigns
Fernando Maldonado
Garcia
Get Me to the Church on Time
graduations
Great Lakes, Illinois
Grinder
Groucho Marx
gunnery officers
Harry Smith
historical preservation
historical restoration
Honey Bun
Jim Allen
Julius Henry Marx
Lake Baldwin
Legion of Merit
Lieutenant Junior
Lone Sailor Memorial Project
LSMP
LST
LTJG
Luis De Florez
Luis De Florez Building
Lydia and the Tattooed Lady
McCoy AFB
McCoy Air Force Base
Mekong Delta
memorials
military spouses
military training
military wife
military wives
Milwaukee
monuments
Morale, Welfare, and Recreation
MWR
My Fair Lady
NAS Sanford
Naval Air Station Sanford
Naval Air Warfare Center Training Systems Divisions
Naval Destroyers School
Naval Education and Training Command
Naval Training Center
Naval Training Center Great Lakes
Naval Training Center Orlando
Naval War College
Navy E Ribbon
Navy-Marine Corps Relief Society
NAWCTSD
NETC
Newport, Rhode Island
NMCRS
North American A-5 Vigilante
NTC Great Lakes
NTC Orlando
Nuclear Power School
nurses
OCS
Officer Candidate School
Officer Car
orlando
Orlando International Airport
Orlando-Sanford International Airport
parks
planes
preservation
Purple Heart
Queens, New York City, New York
RA-5C
RA-5C Vigilante
recruit training
Recruit Training Center
Recruit Training Center Orlando
recruits
Repair Division Officer
Research Park
retirement
Richard T. Sloane
Richard Tobias Sloane
river patrols
River Section 35
Rockbridge
RTC Orlando
Sanford
Santa Barbara
selective service
Service School Command
Service Schools Command
SERVSCOLSCOM
simulations
simulators
South Pacific
Surface Warfare Advisor
Surface Warfare Officers School
The Navigator
training
U.S. Naval War College
U.S. Navy
United Service Organization
USO
USS Blue Jacket
USS Garcia
USS Hassayampa
USS Milwaukee
USS Rockbridge
USS Santa Barbara
USS Wisconsin
veterans
Vietnam
Vietnam War
Vietnamese
volunteers
Ward Room
wars
Weapon Systems Officer
Wisconsin
-
https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka/files/original/215158d1b22ce578f3eea62eb6612695.pdf
d1fd24fc12b62f5a10c38f2dbcff6115
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
UCF Community Veterans History Project Collection
Description
As part of RICHES of Central Florida, UCF intends to record, archive, and make accessible oral history interviews of Central Florida veterans. Diversity is a main focus for this project since there are many different subgroups under the group veterans, all with important stories. While the histories will be largely archived and made available through the UCF library, a portion will be contributed to the ongoing Veterans History Project based out of the Library of Congress.
Contributor
<a href="http://library.ucf.edu/about/departments/special-collections-university-archives/" target="_blank">Special Collections and University Archives</a>, University of Central Florida Libraries, University of Central Florida
Alternative Title
CVHP Collection
Subject
Veterans--Florida
United States. Army
Army
United States. Navy
Navy
United States. Air Force
Air Force
United States. Marine Corps
Marine Corps
Is Part Of
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>.
Language
eng
Type
Collection
Coverage
Jacksonville, Florida
Orlando, Florida
Honolulu, Hawaii
Pearl Harbor, Hawaii
Great Lakes, Illinois
Long Island, New York
Newport, Rhode Island
Norfolk, Virginia
Germany
Qaasuitsup, Greenland
Keflavik, Southern Peninsula, Iceland
Azores Islands, Portugal
Mediterranean Sea
Contributing Project
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>
Curator
Cepero, Laura
Digital Collection
<a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a>
Source Repository
<a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida
External Reference
"<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">About the Project</a>." UCF Community Veterans History Project, RICHES of Central Florida, University of Central Florida. http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/.
Has Part
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/109" target="_blank">Lone Sailor Navy Memorial History Project Collection</a>, UCF Community Veterans History Project, RICHES of Central Florida.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
Grossi, Jared
Interviewee
Holtz, Alan R.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
Oral History of Alan R. Holtz
Alternative Title
Oral History, Holtz
Subject
Veterans--Florida
Navy
Vietnam War, 1961-1975
Operation Desert Shield, 1990-1991
Operation Desert Storm, 1991
Persian Gulf War, 1991
Iraq War
Description
An oral history interview of Alan R. Holtz, who served in the U.S. Navy, during the Vietnam War, Operation Desert Shield, and Operation Desert Storm. Born in the Brooklyn borough of New York City, New York, Holtz enlisted in the Navy during the Vietnam War. He later joined the U.S. Naval Reserve and helped mobilize Reservists during the Persian Gulf War in 1991. This oral history interview was conducted by Jared Grossi on November 13, 2014. Interview topics include enlistment, boot camp, the USS <em>Hancock</em>, the Vietnam War, the Naval Reserves, Operation Desert Shield, and Operation Desert Storm.
Table Of Contents
0:00:00 Introduction<br />0:00:33 Background<br />0:01:45 Enlistment<br />0:02:50 Boot camp and USS <em>Hancock</em><br />0:05:55 Vietnam War<br />0:09:22 Naval Reserves and going back to school<br />0:10:23 Liberty and awards<br />0:12:48 Operation Desert Shield and Operation Desert Storm<br />0:14:43 Off-duty activities<br />0:16:07 Keeping in contact with other sailors, injuries, and September 11th<br />0:17:31 Civilian life<br />0:18:55 Lessons learned from the Navy<br />0:19:20 Closing remarks
Abstract
Oral history interview of Alan R. Holtz. Interview conducted by Jared Grossi in Orlando, Florida, on November 13, 2014.
Type
Moving Image
Source
<a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/502/rec/1" target="_blank">Holtz, Alan R.</a>. Interviewed by Jared Grossi, November 13, 2014. Audio/video record available. Item DP0016189, UCF Community Veterans History Project, Special Collections and University Archives, University of Central Florida Libraries, Orlando, Florida.
Requires
<a href="http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/" target="_blank">Adobe Flash Player</a>
<a href="http://java.com/en/download/index.jsp" target="_blank">Java</a>
<a href="https://get.adobe.com/reader/" target="_blank">Adobe Acrobat Reader</a>
Is Part Of
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, Orlando, Florida.
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/24" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project Collection</a>, RICHES of Central Florida.
Has Format
13-page digital transcript of original 21-minute and 27-second oral history: <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/502/rec/1" target="_blank">Holtz, Alan R.</a>. Interviewed by Jared Grossi, November 13, 2014. Audio/video record available. Item DP0016189, UCF Community Veterans History Project, Special Collections and University Archives, University of Central Florida Libraries, Orlando, Florida.
Conforms To
Standards established by the <a href="http://www.loc.gov/vets/" target="_blank">Veterans History Projects</a>, Library of Congress.
Coverage
Brooklyn, New York City, New York
Vietnam
Philippines
Creator
Holtz, Alan R.
Grossi, Jared
Publisher
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>
Date Created
2014-11-13
Date Issued
2015-02
Date Copyrighted
2014-11-13
Format
application/website
application/pdf
Extent
432 MB
164 KB
Medium
21-minute and 27-second Digital (DAT) audio/video recording
13-page digital transcript
Language
eng
Mediator
History Teacher
Civics/Government Teacher
Geography Teacher
Provenance
Originally created by Jared Grossi and Alan R. Holtz.
Rights Holder
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>
Accrual Method
Item Creation
Contributing Project
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>
Curator
Cepero, Laura
Digital Collection
<a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a>
External Reference
Herring, George C. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/5126110" target="_blank"><em>America's Longest War: The United States and Vietnam, 1950-1975</em></a>. New York: Wiley, 1979.
Matthews, Eamonn, Ben Loeterman, and Will Lyman. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/34145115" target="_blank"><em>The Gulf War</em></a>. Alexandria, VA: PBS Video, 1996.
Anderson, Michael G. <a href="/www.worldcat.org/oclc/27694401" target="_blank"><em>The Air Force Rapid Response Process: Streamlined Acquisition During Operations Desert Shield and Desert Storm: Project Air Force Analysis of the Air War in the Gulf</em></a>. Santa Monica, CA: Rand Corp, 1992.
Click to View (Movie, Podcast, or Website)
<a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/502/rec/1" target="_blank">Holtz, Alan R.</a>
Transcript
<p><strong>Holtz<br /></strong>Three.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi<br /></strong>Today, it is November 11<sup>th</sup>, 2014. I am interviewing Alan [R.] Holtz, who served in the Navy. He served in Vietnam [War] and helped mobilize Naval Reservists during Operation Devert[sic]—Desert Shield, and Operation Desert Storm. He completed his service as an E[nlisted]-6 rank. My name is Jared Grossi. We are interviewing Mr. Holtz as part of the UCF Community Veterans History Project. We are recording this interview at—in Orlando, Florida.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi<br /></strong>Alright. So Mr. Holtz…</p>
<p><strong>Holtz<br /></strong>Yes?</p>
<p><strong>Grossi<br /></strong>Where were you born? </p>
<p><strong>Holtz<br /></strong>I was born in Brooklyn[, New York City], New York.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi <br /></strong>Okay. What was your childhood like?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz<br /></strong>My childhood? It was very good. I, uh—my parents were very, very good. I had three brothers. We had a great time. I really had a good childhood. I liked it.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi<br /></strong>You, uh—are you the oldest of the brothers?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz<br /></strong>No, I’m the second. I have one older brother and the rest are younger than me.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi<br /></strong>Okay. Um, what did your parents do for a living?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz <br /></strong>Uh, my father was in the Army during World War II, but then he was—but then he, uh—he worked for a packaging company, I believe, in—in Brooklyn.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Holtz </strong>And my mom, uh, stayed home and raised us four kids. I don’t think she worked outside though.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi </strong>Alright. Um, did—Other than your father, did anyone else enlist before you?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Uh, my father I had a couple of uncles that were in during World War II, and that’s it. My brother tried to enlist in the Air Force, and I think his vision wasn’t good, so he didn’t—he didn’t make it.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Okay. Um, what type of education did receive before your service?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Uh, right—right out of high school, I enlisted.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />How old were you when you enlisted? I mean, you said it was after high school.</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Yeah, 18.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Okay. Um, what caused you to enlist?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Uh, it’s kind of a long story. They had the draft at that time, and people were being drafted into the Vietnam War, and it was, uh, sort of a lottery system, where would they tell you your number and you had a better chance of getting drafted, so I had a pretty good chance that I was going to be drafted. So to get a better choice of where you want to go, I enlisted.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Okay. What did your family think of your enlistment?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Uh, they—they were happy about it. Like I said, my uncle was in the Navy and said it was the best one of the services, even though my father was in the Army. So they were happy about it.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Okay. Uh, what was, uh, boot camp like in the Navy?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Boot camp—it was—it was very tough for me, because it was the first time I was like away from home, alone there, and not, you know—scared what was going happen, but I ended up doing good[sic], ‘cause I had, uh—I was in pretty good shape. So the physical stuff wasn’t that hard for me, so I—I did good[sic].</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Alright. Um, where were you stationed after completing your training?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Uh, after—after boot camp, I went to training in San Diego, California, and the first place I was stationed was onboard an aircraft carrier, U—USS <em>Hancock</em></p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Okay. Uh, what was your experience when you first arrived where you were stationed?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />When I first arrived, it was—it was just very different than anything that I had seen before. Nev—I’d never been on a ship, and it was really big. Um, lot of people. You have to live in, uh—sleeping on a little bunk in a room with a lot of other people. So it was—it was hard to get used to.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi<br /></strong>Um, what was your instructor like?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz<br /></strong>In—in boot camp, you mean?</p>
<p><strong>Grossi<br /></strong>Uh, yes.</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Uh, he, eh—He was good. You—first you get there, and you’re scared, and you’re—hate them and everything, but you get used to it. Then once you graduate, you appreciate what he did, you know, what he taught you, and everything.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />So you mentioned living on the carrier. What was, uh, the Navy life like?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Well, I—I liked it. Once you get out of boot camp, you realize it’s more like a job and it’s not all going to be like you were—like it was in boot camp. So you, uh—you get used to it pretty fast. It was good. It was fun. Some of it.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Alright. Um, was there any—what was not fun about it?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />What was not fun was the hours. You work a lot of hours, a lot of hard work, and, uh, the thing I got trained for was, uh, personnel, which is human resources. So when you work in human resources and in an office, they—the other people on the ship don’t think you’re doing anything, ‘cause you’re not out there manning the guns, or steering the ship, or anything important. Your, uh—you know, according to them. So you get volun—you get volunteered to do other work to help other departments. So it’s—it’s a lot of work, a lot of hours.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Alright. So what were some of your other duties then?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Uh, I worked in the—in the laundry, pressing uniforms and stuff, and, um, just, uh, security watches and stuff, go—security. Guard duty is called “watches” in the Navy.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Um, what were the watches like?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Uh, you get different hours, like you’d have f—a four-hour period, where you just, you know, stand guard over something or, you know, security of the ship.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Alright. Uh, what was your assignment during the Vietnam War?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Uh, I was in the personnel office on the aircraft carrier, and I was, uh, in support of an air squadron, where they—the, uh, pilots would fly off the carrier and do whatever they had to do over there, and just their support, like their—make sure their pay, their paper work got done, you know, transfers, retirements, whatever they had to do. All the office work.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Okay. Um, tell me about your, um, Western Pacific [Ocean] and your Mediterranean [Sea] cruise?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />That, uh—well, the Western Pacific was while I was on the aircraft carrier, and where they would go off the coast of Vietnam for a while, and then after that, they would go into different ports. So I got to see a lot of the world over there. It was—it was really good. The Philippines was my favorite place.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Oh, what made it your favorite place?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Uh, just that the people are very—they’re very friendly. They’re very nice. They—they support, you know—they supported the military. Met a lot of nice people there, and also the, uh, beaches, mountains, everything—just a beautiful place to relax, after being out at sea for a long time. </p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Okay. What was the typical day like during this period?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />A typical day? Uh, like I said, there’s—there’s[sic] long hours, and your—Besides the regular office hours, which is—they try to make it eight to five, but then you’re on call and other things come up, so you end up staying there a lot longer or being called in the middle of the night, and then, if you had one of those, uh, watches or some other duties you had to do that—they don’t take the hours away from your regular office work. You still have to be there. So some days you’d be working without any sleep.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />What was the food like?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />The food was—was actually good. I know people complain about it, but it was—it was good. You had a lot of choices. You got—you don’t have that much time to eat sometimes, but the—the food was really good. They did a—they did a good job.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Um, what would you do to entertain yourself at times?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Uh, they had different activities, and s—you know, sports. ‘cause we would like—‘cause when I’m on an aircraft carrier that has a big flight deck, so during the times that they’re not, uh, landing and taking off aircraft, they’re—use it for sports, games, and they had movies, and they—we would get our mail stuff, and they didn’t have the Internet back then, but…</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />We could make phone calls and send messages.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Okay. Did the Navy change after the Vietnam War?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Uh, it cha—Yeah. It changed a lot. A lot of things changed.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Could you tell me about some of the changes?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Uh, well, see, it seemed during the war, they were more relaxed about, you know, haircuts, uniforms, A lot of things. Uh, even—even drug use was pretty prevalent during the Vietnam War, and they didn’t—seemed like they really cared that much, and it went from that to the zero tolerance policy pretty quickly. You know, I guess they realized it was getting quite out of hand [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />[<em>laughs</em>] Um, tell me about the Naval Reserves.</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />They—well, after— after my first four years, I got out for a few months. was going back to school, but then I decided to go back in and I went into the—it was called Training and Administration of the Reserves program, Where I’d work at Reserve centers and air stations, just training—training Reserves, and supporting them, doing there paper work, and keeping records and things.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Alright. You said you went back to school. Um, what’d you go back to school for?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Uh, I—I went back to get an AA [Associate of Arts] degree, which I did, you know, start. When I got out, I started going full-time, but then I went back in the military and went just part-time ‘til I finished then.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Alright, and then you said you wound up going back in? Um…</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Yeah.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Why’d you decide to do that?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Well, I got married, and then I was going to have a kid. So I thought that would be—I thought that would be a good, uh—good career to have, since I liked it a lot for the first four years. So I decided to go back in and make a career out of it.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Okay. Um, what was your job in the Reserves?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Um, tt was still office work. It was, um, personnel, but, uh, helping with the training of Reserves. Like the Reserves that would come in one weekend a month, and they’d get trained. The—the person—the administrative ones—I would help train them, and also keep all there records and everything for all the Reserves. You know, transfers, retirements, promotions. Everything they do.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Okay. Um, how did moving up through the ranks change your responsibilities?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Uh, it changed a lot. You get a lot more responsibility pretty quick[sic] from when you first go in and just—I made it all the way up to E6, which is, uh, supervisor. So it’s a lot of responsibility, because you have a lot of other people to worry about and make sure there doing their job as well.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Okay. Uh, what was one of your most memoral[sic]—memorable days throughout your service in your career—in the serving career?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Uh, most memorable days? Uh, I guess, uh, being on a ship and traveling. You know, any one of those days, when you’re—you know, you work hard, but then when you finally get into a port, they give you a lot of time off to do what you want and relax, and I like that part of traveling. Seeing new places.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Traveling must have been fun. Um, what were some of the things you do when you um, would dock at ports?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Uh, they would have—they would have tours available, you know, they’re trying to encourage you not to just go out to bars, like some people did. Um, so I didn’t do too much of that. I went on a lot of the bus tours and they had events scheduled for us. Like you could go help, uh, different charity events, go help, like—I remember one time, we painted a church or helped this, uh, shelter for people. A lot of things like that, where you can help the community too. They didn’t want us to just go out there and have fun and leave [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />[<em>laughs</em>] Um, did your receive any awards?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Yeah, I’ve got a lot of—a lot of different medals and awards for different things. I don’t even remember them all.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />How did you help exactly in Operation Desert Storm and [Operation Desert] Shield?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Uh, well, that—at that time, I was at a Reserve center, and they mobilized some of the Reserve units to send them over there to—to, uh, well, fight, or set up things, whatever, and so we were—when you’re in the Reserves, they have these drills all the time about mobilizing the Reserves and calling them into active duty, and you think it’s never going to really happen, but that was the real thing. We had to mobilize them—and I think it was about three hundred people from our Reserve units—and get them ready, get them there orders, paper work and everything, and travel arrangements, and send them over there.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Alright. You said there was[sic], uh, drills and you actually wound up having to do them. Um, did the drills you feel help? Or was the actual event…</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Uh, the actual event’s a lot different than—it—it helped—it—the drills helped you prepare for it, but then when it actually happens, they—there isn’t time to actually to do it—there wasn’t time to actually do it step-by-step the way you plan. You know, Set up the incoming—set up the tables, set up the—what forms they’re going to need. So it—it worked out a lot different than you planned, but you still got it done.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Okay. Um, did your experience in Desert Storm and Shield differ from Vietnam?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Uh, yeah. It was a lot different, ‘cause I was just at the Reserve center, and—and preparing these other people to go where I—I—In Vietnam War, I was actually on the ship, right off the coast there, and even though I was working the office, I was more, you know—closer to the action that was going on, supporting the people, but, uh, for that for that—for that operation, I was just at the Reserve center, and getting them ready to go there. So it seemed like it was further from the actual thing.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Okay. Um, what kind of activities did you do while off duty? Um, I know you mentioned you—you’d go on tour and stuff…</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Yeah.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />During the dockings. Um, was it just—I mean, uh—I guess when you’re off duty, what did you do?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Oh, just—well, if I’m in a different—At the Reserve center or at the…</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Uh, I—just In general</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Well, if you’re…</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />When you were off duty.</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Well, when it—when it—it’s different when you’re off duty overseas. I would just, you know, travel, see, you know—See what I could find, enjoy the scenery and new places, but once I was at Reserves center, Reserves center is in the—in that program, I was back home. So I was married and had kids. So I was just doing normal, you know—normal daily life, and it was more like a regular job, than when you’re on a ship.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Did you visit back home often?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Yeah, I would. Yeah, my parents were still in New York most of that time, so I would—I would fly home whenever I could. Get vacation. They gave you a lot of time off in the military, when—when they can.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Um, when you were back home, what did you do for work or just entertainment then?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Oh, spend time with my parents and my brothers, and visiting, mostly.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Um, did you still keep in contact with any of your friends you made in the Navy?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Uh, I did for a while, but it was hard to do that, ‘cause so many people get transferred, and you don’t see them again, and—So I lost track of a lot of them, but there was a few that I—that I still kept in contract[sic] —contact with.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Okay. Um, could you tell me about some of the injuries you received?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Well, first injury—first injury I got—when I was working on that aircraft carrier, I worked in the laundry, and pressed my hand down on…</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Oh.</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />On the steam press. So that’s how I got that injury. So I call it my “Vietnam War injury,” but not really. It was on the aircraft carrier, working in the laundry, and got—got that hand burned, and some other things: I just hurt my back while I was there, so— but nothing too serious. I’m still able to work.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Okay. How did, uh, the events of 9/11<a title="">[1]</a> affect you?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />How did it affect me? I was—I remember being very angry when it—when it happened, and wishing I was back in the military, so I could go do something about it, you know? Help fight whoever was doing it.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />How was the transition from the Navy life into the civilian life?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Uh, it was very hard, at first, to—when you’re looking for a job, and you try to relate what you did in the military to civilian job. So you work in an office and, you know, you find out that all you’re qualified to do is be a secretary, or something like that. So actually, I was, uh, a medical services secretary, when I first got out. That was the first job they had at, uh, Humana[, Inc.] health care.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Okay. Um, how—how has the civilian life affected you?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Oh, well—well, I got used to it pretty quickly, and I had other jobs since then, and then finally found UCF [University of Central Florida], which I like.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Okay. How have the—the way the civilians treated you over the years—how has that been?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />It’s—it’s been good, mostly. Most people—most people, you know, they appreciate what you did. they—there’s, you know, this preference for veterans, and a lot of jobs that you go for, you know—to at least get you the interview to see if you’re qualified to get the job, but, uh, most people treat you—treat you good[sic]. I never had anybody who didn’t.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />What lessons, from your time in the Navy, do you consider valuable?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Uh, I think I learned a lot about working, do, uh—doing the best job that you can, getting it—trying to get everything done, so you can enjoy your time off, and, uh, doing a good job working with other people—Team work. A lot—a lot of things you learn there, you know, still relates to whatever job you have outside.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Do you have any, uh, unusual or funny stories in your time of the service?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Um, no, not really [<em>laughs</em>]—not really that I can think of. I’m sure there were some.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Um…</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Well, now, there’s some unusual things when I was working at the Reserve centers. There sometimes—sometimes, they’re the only military in the area. So they’ve let you—make you volunteer for a lot of different things, like security and different things that you don’t need security for. They just wanted the local military to be there, and doing funerals, and things that I didn’t like to do.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Okay. Um, is there anything else we missed or you would like to talk about?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Um, no, not—not really. Not that I can think of.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Alright. Uh, do you have any messages or lessons you’d like to pass on to the young—the young people?</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Oh, about the military? Just that it—it is a good career. Uh, the benefits are great, now that I’m retired. I did—I did, you know, 20 years. Now that I’m retired, it’s really worth it to, uh—the benefit you get, through retirement, the medical care, everything. So it’s worth it.</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Alright. Uh, questions?</p>
<p><strong>Unidentified<br /></strong>[inaudible].</p>
<p><strong>Grossi</strong><br />Okay. Um, well, I’d like to thank you, Mr. Holtz, for your time. I and the UCF community really appreciate you coming out today and telling your story, Um, in the—in the short time in the interview [<em>laughs</em>]. Thank you.</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Unidentified<br /></strong>[inaudible].</p>
<p><strong>Holtz</strong><br />Thank you.</p>
<div><br /><div>
<p><a title="">[1]</a> September 11<sup>th</sup>, 2001.</p>
</div>
</div>
1st Gulf War
1st Iraq War
9/11
aircraft carrier
aircraft carriers
Alan R. Holtz
basic training
boot camp
boot camps
Brooklyn, New York City, New York
Community Veterans History Project
conscription
CVHP
Democratic Republic of Vietnam
Desert Shield
Desert Storm
drafts
E-6
education
Enlisted Rank 6
enlistment
First Gulf War
First Iraq War
Gulf War
Hancock
instructors
Iraq War
Jared Grossi
Kuwait War
liberties
liberty
military education
military training
naval instructors
North Vietnam
Operation Desert Shield
Operation Desert Storm
Persian Gulf War
Philippines
Republic of the Philippines
Republic of Vietnam
San Diego, California
selective service
September 11th
Socialist Republic of Vietnam
South Vietnam
TAR
terrorism
terrorists
training
Training and Administration of the Reserve
U.S. Naval Reserve
U.S. Navy
USS Hancock
veterans
Vietnam
Vietnam War
watch
watches
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https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka/files/original/9d752cd3aa575d9fec8b61845098d41a.pdf
8029e7962c673e092163f97adfd6ad89
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
UCF Community Veterans History Project Collection
Description
As part of RICHES of Central Florida, UCF intends to record, archive, and make accessible oral history interviews of Central Florida veterans. Diversity is a main focus for this project since there are many different subgroups under the group veterans, all with important stories. While the histories will be largely archived and made available through the UCF library, a portion will be contributed to the ongoing Veterans History Project based out of the Library of Congress.
Contributor
<a href="http://library.ucf.edu/about/departments/special-collections-university-archives/" target="_blank">Special Collections and University Archives</a>, University of Central Florida Libraries, University of Central Florida
Alternative Title
CVHP Collection
Subject
Veterans--Florida
United States. Army
Army
United States. Navy
Navy
United States. Air Force
Air Force
United States. Marine Corps
Marine Corps
Is Part Of
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>.
Language
eng
Type
Collection
Coverage
Jacksonville, Florida
Orlando, Florida
Honolulu, Hawaii
Pearl Harbor, Hawaii
Great Lakes, Illinois
Long Island, New York
Newport, Rhode Island
Norfolk, Virginia
Germany
Qaasuitsup, Greenland
Keflavik, Southern Peninsula, Iceland
Azores Islands, Portugal
Mediterranean Sea
Contributing Project
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>
Curator
Cepero, Laura
Digital Collection
<a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a>
Source Repository
<a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida
External Reference
"<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">About the Project</a>." UCF Community Veterans History Project, RICHES of Central Florida, University of Central Florida. http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/.
Has Part
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/109" target="_blank">Lone Sailor Navy Memorial History Project Collection</a>, UCF Community Veterans History Project, RICHES of Central Florida.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
Young, Mary Hughes
Interviewee
Levine, Lawrence "Larry" Paul
Location
University of Central Florida, Orlando, Florida
Original Format
1 audio/video recording
Duration
41 minutes and 6 seconds
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
Oral History of Lawrence Paul Levine
Alternative Title
Oral History, Levine
Subject
Veterans--Florida
Vietnam War, 1961-1975
Air Force
Description
An oral history interview of Lawrence Paul Levine (b. 1947), who enlisted in the U.S. Air Force (USAF) in August of 1966, just after being drafted into the U.S. Army. Levine was born in Rochester, New York, on June 8, 1947. He served in Europe during the Vietnam War, until he was discharged on August 31, 1970. Levine received a Good Conduct Medal for his service.<br /><br />This oral history interview was conducted by Mary Hughes Young on April 1, 2014. Interview topics include Levine's background, his enlistment in the Air Force and drafting into the U.S. Army, basic and advanced training, being stations in Europe, getting married voerseas, returning to the U.S. after being discharged, and his life as a civilian afterward.
Table Of Contents
0:00:00 Introduction<br />0:00:32 Background<br />0:02:38 Draft and enlistment<br />0:06:42 Basic training at Lackland Air Force Base<br />0:10:06 Sharpshooting and career assignment<br />0:13:52 Advanced training at Amarillo Air Force Base<br />0:21:16 Assignment in Europe<br />0:26:55 Relationships with other servicemen and assignments<br />0:30:15 Getting married overseas<br />0:31:09 Rank and discharge<br />0:33:30 Life after service<br />0:36:28 Treatment from civilians<br />0:37:29 How service affected civilian life<br />0:39:15 Closing remarks
Abstract
Oral history interview of Lawrence Paul Levine. Interview conducted by Mary Hughes Young at the University of Central Florida in Orlando, Florida.
Type
Moving Image
Source
<a href="http://stars.library.ucf.edu/veteransoralhistories/259/" target="_blank">Levine, Lawrence Paul</a>. Interviewed by Mary Hughes Young. April 1, 2014. Audio/video record available. <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/277/rec/1" target="_blank">Item DP0014898</a>, UCF Community Veterans History Project, Orlando, Florida.
Requires
<a href="http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/" target="_blank">Adobe Flash Player</a>
<a href="http://java.com/en/download/index.jsp" target="_blank">Java</a>
<a href="https://get.adobe.com/reader/" target="_blank">Adobe Acrobat Reader</a>
Is Part Of
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, Orlando, Florida.
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/92" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project Collection</a>, RICHES of Central Florida.
Has Format
Digital transcript of original 41-minute and 6-second oral history: <a href="http://stars.library.ucf.edu/veteransoralhistories/259/" target="_blank">Levine, Lawrence Paul</a>. Interviewed by Mary Hughes Young. April 1, 2014.
Conforms To
Standards established by the <a href="http://www.loc.gov/vets/" target="_blank">Veterans History Projects</a>, Library of Congress.
Coverage
Rochester, New York
Brown University, Providence, Rhode Island
U.S. Bureau of Customs and Border Protection, Providence, Rhode Island
Lackland Air Force Base, San Antonio, Texas
Amarillo Air Force Base, Amarillo, Texas
McGuire Air Force Base, Burlington County, New Jersey
Rhein-Main Air Base, Germany
Shaw Air Force Base, Sumter, South Carolina
Rochester Institute of Technology, Rochester, New York
Creator
Levine, Larry
Young, Mary Hughes
Publisher
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>
Date Created
2014-04-01
Date Copyrighted
2014-04-01
Format
video/mp4
application/pdf
Extent
353 MB
224 MB
Medium
41-minute and 6-second audio/video recording
28-page digital transcript
Language
eng
Mediator
History Teacher
Civics/Government Teacher
Geography Teacher
Provenance
Originally created by Mary Hughes Young and Larry Levine and published by <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>.
Rights Holder
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>
Accrual Method
Item Creation
Contributing Project
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>
Curator
Cepero, Laura
Digital Collection
<a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a>
Source Repository
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>
External Reference
Herring, George C. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/5126110" target="_blank"><em>America's Longest War: The United States and Vietnam, 1950-1975</em></a>. New York: Wiley, 1979.
Transcript
<p><strong>Unidentified<br /></strong>Recording.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Today [<em>clears throat</em>] is April the 1<sup>st</sup>[, 2014]. I am Mary Hughes Young, and I am interviewing Lawrence Paul Levine.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Right.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Who served in the U.S. Air Force [<em>sniffs</em>]. Um, This is part of the University of Central Floride—Florida’s Community Veterans History Project, and we’re recording this interview at University of Central Florida in Orlando, Florida. Okay. Larry, tell me first about when and where you were born.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>I was born in Rochester, New York, in 1947.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. And did you live there for all of your educational years?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Uh, primarily, yes. Yes. I, uh, graduated college in Rochester also, after the—after my service.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. Uh, do you have brothers or sisters?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Yes. I have two brothers.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Two. So there were three of…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Yes. There were three of us in the family.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Where were you in the birth order?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Uh, I’m the oldest.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>The oldest? Okay. What did your parents do for a living?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Well, my father had a number of different jobs. Uh, He was a bread salesman for Thomas’ English Muffins for a while, and then worked for a supermarket chain as one of their managers of one of their stores. Um, my mother was pretty much of a stay-at home mom. Um, She became very si—very sick, um, at a very young age and—and passed away at a very young age also. Uh…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. And how old were you when she passed away?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>I was, uh, 20.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>20? Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>21.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Uh, Were any of your family members or extended members in the military?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Yes. My father—my father was. He was in World War II. He, uh, was an in-flight radio operator in—at that time, was the Army Air Corps, uh, which then became the Air Force. Uh, in-flight radio operator and served over in India, going back from Karachi to Calcutta, India.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. Uh, tell me about your education before you went into the military.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Well, I, um, graduated high school in 1964. Uh, was accepted to Brown University, um, in Providence, Rhode Island. [<em>clears throat</em>] Finished one year there, and then my mother became very ill, and I had to come back home, which led me into the next phase of my life of being in the—in the military. Um, so that was prior to me going into the service.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. Uh, And why did you decide to go into the military?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Well, uh, because I came back home and had to help the family out. Uh, during that time, it was the Vietnam War, obviously—back in the—in the [19]60s. Um, in all honestly, I was ultimately drafted.</p>
<p>Now, there was a[sic] interesting—very interesting story that leads up to that. Um, When I came back home, I went to work for the U.S. Customs Service. My background is primarily: I was going to school in business and accounting, and I was fortunate enough to get a job [<em>clears throat</em>] with the U.S. Bureau of Customs [and Border Protection] in Rochester. Uh, went to work for them full-time. Did a number of j—jobs for them, primarily in the accounting area, and also, uh, did a few clearances of planes and—and ships and that system, where I need to, in that particular area. But I worked in the, um, government, uh—in the state office building—actually, it was a Federal building. It wasn’t even a state. It was a Federal building, because it was U.S. Customs.</p>
<p>And, uh, the draft board was right downstairs from my offices. And I became very friendly with a number of the different people who worked in the draft board, and informed them of my situation: that, uh, I was eligible for the draft, because I wasn’t going to school full-time. I was going to school part-time. Uh, they had informed me at that particular time that, “No—no worries. No problems.” That, uh, I would be safe, because I knew everybody there. And low- and behold, before I knew it, my letter from Uncle Sam came and said I was drafted.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>So I went back to the [<em>laughs</em>]—to the, uh, draft board and said, “What happened here?” And their excuse was, “Oh, we’re sorry. It got by us,” and everything like that. So, um, in ess—in essence, I was drafted, but before I was drafted, I enlisted in the Air Force.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Um, and was this before the lottery was in effect?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>No. The lottery was in effect, if I’m not mistaken. Um, the—there was a lottery, and I had a pretty, pretty low lottery number.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Meaning that I was very eligible for the draft. Uh, I wasn’t going to Canada. I wasn’t going any place, but I was informed again by the draft board that I’d be safe. And, uh, low and behold, I wasn’t.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. Because of the work you were doing?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>No. It’s just that—because I knew people at the draft board, who said if they saw my name come up, they would pull it [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Oh, okay. Okay. Well, how did you feel about being drafted then? Um, was it—was it…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Concerned.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>A big shock?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Concerned.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Shock. Uh, the first thing, obviously, that came to my mind, was: <em>Well, if you’re drafted, then you’re going into the Army. And if you go in the Army, you are going to carry a gun. If you carry a gun, you’re going to go to Vietnam.</em> So, uh, when that—when that happened, obviously, the family was very concerned about it. And, uh…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>And so—so…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>They didn’t want me to go. So I figured it would be best if I went into the Air Force.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Right. And so you signed up for the Air Force…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Yes.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Right after you were drafted?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Yes. That’s correct.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>That’s correct.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>And So your family was feeling</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Uh…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Concerned about the situation too?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>They were more concerned, obviously, during that whole period of time, but not as concerned if I allowed myself to be drafted in the Army.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Into the Army. Okay. How about your, uh peers? You friends or girlfriend? How did they feel about you going into the military?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Uh, my friends were kind of like, <em>Better you than me</em>, at that particular time. Uh, I’m sure most people realized that was not the greatest time in our history for the military. Most people were looked down on in going into the military. Uh, I had some tough experiences myself with that particular situation. Uh, my girlfriend, at the time, was pretty much—said, “If you are going into the military, then I’m not waiting around for you, so,” [<em>laughs</em>] “I’m—I’m gone.”</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>As if you had a choice, right? [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Yeah. As if I had a choice. Right. Right.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. Uh, well, now you’re in the Air Force.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Mmhmm.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>And where did you do your basic training?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Uh, Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas. I was there in August of 1966.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. And, uh, what were your expectations of— being in the, uh—in basic training? Did you—did you have any idea of what was going—what it was going to be like?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>No. I had an idea, but I didn’t—I didn’t think it would be as bad as it really was. Uh, I was in good shape at the time, okay?</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Uh huh.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Weighed a lot less than I do now. And, um, expected it to be a little different, uh, physically and mentally. Uh, The aspects of basic training are obviously to get you in a situation to where you are able to accept orders, and you’re able to—be able to do things when they’re—when you’re told to do them. And, uh, I accepted that without any problem. It’s just—there’s a little more physical on my body than I had anticipated.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. Can you elaborate a little bit on that?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Yeah. The marching…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>What was a typical day like?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>The typical day is we get up at like five in the morning—4:30-5 o’clock in the morning, and we’d have to make our bunks and get everything straightened away for the day. We go to me—the mess hall, where we had breakfast. And that was one of the things that surprised me, because we just didn’t take our time in—in being able to eat breakfast. We were given a certain amount of time to get in line, eat our breakfast, and get ready to go outside. It was a lot shorter than I had anticipated. So, uh, my eating habits had to change very quickly, because of that.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Hm.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Uh, after that, we would do either calisthenics or marching. Um, go to the gun range, which kind of surprised me, because I didn’t think I would be shooting a gun. Uh, had qualified in the—in the gun range.</p>
<p>And had different classes on just general military, um—you know, the way of life of a—of a person in the military. Uh, Things—how to handle yourself, how to be able to, uh, you know, again, take orders, and anything that had to do with the military. Military history, all of that.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. And this—how long was your basic training? How many weeks?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Uh, wow. You see, I—that—I, uh—I want to say eight weeks.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Eight weeks? Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>But it might be a little bit longer than that. I mean, that’s 40—what? 40—safe[sic] —48 years ago. And [<em>laughs</em>]…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>[inaudible]. I really didn’t wanna do any…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>It’s not for everybody[?].</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Research on that.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>You know there’s an end to it.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Yes.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>It’s not gonna be forever.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>That’s absolutely correct.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. Um, what were your instructors like?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>[<em>sniffs</em>] I thought the meanest people in the world, okay? They didn’t take any—they didn’t take anything from anybody.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Uh huh.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Um, which is what they were supposed to do. You were supposed to be there to listen to them. Them—they were, um, NCOs [non-commissioned officers], which is, uh, the equivalents of sergeants, okay? They were not officers, although the heads—some different, um, sections were—were officers—captains and—and, uh, lieutenants and that. But, um, you know…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>[inaudible].</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>I realized after a while, that they were doing their job, and that if they were soft on us, and if we became—a situation, which we got involved in, we couldn’t be soft either. So the, um—they did their job, and I think they did it—looking back on it, I think they did a good job on ‘em.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. Uh, let’s back up a minute.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Sure.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>You said you didn’t think you’d have to shoot a gun</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Mmhmm.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>But you did.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Right.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>And I think I noticed on your paper that you were, uh, a sharpshooter.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Yeah. I surprised myself, to be honest with you.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Had you ever shot a gun before?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>No.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. So…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>No.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>You adapted to that well.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>I adapted to it. Yeah. Well…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Which again, kind of concerned me. In effect, if I’m a sharpshooter, they might do something with me, other than what I wanted to do [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Did you receive, uh, any advanced, specialized training?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Not at that time. No. When we, uh—Just To—to go back a little bit, uh, historically, what led up to this: when I enlisted in the—in the Air Force—and I— don’t mean to take away what you’re—you—the questions you are asking—uh, I had to take a battery of tests…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Mmhmm.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>To determine where I was best fit for the Air Force. Uh, and, at that time, I was—I—I actually scored highest in the administrative area. It was like electronics, administrative, mechanical, uh—those I think—and—and just basic—basic air. So I scored highest in administrative, which I assumed that I would, because that was pretty much my background and what I wanted to do.</p>
<p>However, at the time that I went in, and—there were no openings in the administrative field. So I said, “Well, if you don’t have anything in the administrative area, send me home. I don’t—I don’t need to come then.”</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>They said, “No. that doesn’t work that way, okay? Now, you’re going to be in the electronics field.” I said, “Okay. Electronics.” “Yeah. You know, putting wires together and all this kind of stuff. Wherever you’re needed in electronics.” You know, that’s a wide area, obviously. I said, “Okay.” and they gave me another battery of tests, and one of the tests was called the Ishihara [Color] Test—and I’m not sure if you’re fa—familiar with that? That’s the one where they have the numbers that are embedded in the different colors, so that if you’re looking at it, it is to determine if you are colorblind or not.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Oh.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Well, I really botched that up big time. I think I only got two numbers out of all of them that they showed me. I just couldn’t pick out the different numbers in the blocks of different colors. So they sat back and they said “Well, hm. If you can’t pick out the numbers, how are you going to put a red wire together with a green wire or with a blue wire, and make sure it’s running properly? So you can’t go into electronics.” So I said, “Good. Send me home.” They said, “No. it doesn’t work that way.”</p>
<p>I said, “Well, how about administrative again?” “No. we still don’t have any openings.” “Okay. So now what?” “Well, we’re going to give you your choice of what you want to do, Okay? This is the career that you’re going to have in the Air Force.” One: You can become a cook, okay? Number two: you can become a parachute rigger, okay? Putting together the parachutes for the pilots and [inaudible]. Three: you can be an air policeman, because you did qualify that [inaudible]. Or four: you can be an airframe repair specialist.</p>
<p>So I sat back and I thought, <em>Well, I could kill everybody with my cooking</em>, because I couldn’t cook very well, okay? <em>If I became a parachute rigger, god forbid if a parachute didn’t open when the pilot jumped out of the plane or whatever[?], I’d probably kill somebody that way. </em>Air police? I says[sic], <em>Nah. I’m not big enough to be a good air </em>policeman, you know? I could direct traffic, but that would probably be all that I could do. So that left me with airframe repair, okay? So that’s where we’re back—that’s where—that’s a little bit about the background on my next point after basic training.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. So in basic training, you get your assignments?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Exactly.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>And you were assigned to be an air…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Airframe Repair.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Airframe Repair? Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>That’s exactly correct.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. So that’s working on the outside of the airplane.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Uh, It could be the inside too.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Oh, okay. Anything to do with the frame of an airplane?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Right.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay, but, um—so where were you assigned after basic training?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>I was assigned after basic training to advanced training at Amarillo Air Force Base—Texas also. I really didn’t leave Texas for my basic training and my advance training. And this was strictly was airframe repair now.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Okay? This was how—to teach me how to be, uh, an airframe repairman.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>I have two left hands, so you can imagine</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>What it was like to be in Airframe Repair School [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. And—so how long where you in</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Uh…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Airframe training?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Six months, actually.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Six months? Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Almost six months. It was—yeah.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>And What was your impression of this a—assignment?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>I thought it would be just going to school, But unfortunately, it wasn’t. It was an extension of the basic training, only, to be honest with you, worse. First of all, the weather in Amarillo, Texas, was horrible. I was there during the wintertime, and it was cold and freezing, and we were doing calisthenics outside and we were running, and we were marching. And I said, <em>This isn’t supposed to be like this.</em> <em>This is like I’m supposed to learn how to work on airplanes, not</em> [<em>laughs</em>]—<em>not</em>—I said, “This was already done in basic training. Why do I—why do I gotta do that again?” “No, no, no.” And actually, they—they called them “TIs”—technical instructors—were worse in—in Airframe Repair School than they were in basic training. They were harder on us in—in, uh—in school.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>So…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>How many hours would you actually be in—in training for repairs?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>For repairs? It was about six to eight hours a day.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>So a long day?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Yeah. It was just on the repair. Just on airframe repairs. That wasn’t—again, the calisthenics or the marching and everything else. So it was a full day.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. And did it start early…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Yes.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Like in basic training?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Not as early, but pretty close.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Pretty close? Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>What did your duties entail as an airframe worker?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Well, again, there’s another story that goes along with that, okay?</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Tell it.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Uh,Well, in—in basic airframe repair, you do anything from sheet metal work to fiber glassing to, umm anything that has to do, again, with—with the frame. Ma—uh, making sure that the—that the actual plane itself is in good shape to fly, okay? From a sheet metal standpoint, and not the electronics standpoint. Obviously, that’s in another area.</p>
<p>But, uh—this—this, again, is a—is another story. I had two left hands, as—as I had mentioned. Uh, I couldn’t hit a hammer—nail with a hammer great, and they’re putting me on working on airplanes. Well, each part of the course was a different thing you did with an—with the airframe. Riveting was one area, sheet met—cutting out certain, uh, pieces on the plane was another area.</p>
<p>Uh, one of the areas that they had, they called them “blocks.” each one was a separate block, and what you did was you learned as part—as in the individual blocks was, uh, fiber glassing, okay? And how to fiberglass, how to use fiberglass, and how to be able to mold it on a plane were necessary things like that. I wish you could’ve seen me doing the fiberglass work. You’d—it’d—it’s a real comedy. It was a real comedy, a real joke.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>What was the, uh, difficulty in—in doing that? I don’t—I haven’t worked with fiberglass.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Well, it’s just mixing—mixing the ras—the resin together…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Oh, okay.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>So it’s the right consistency. Being able to lay out the sheets of fiberglass on there, and smooth it over, sand it down. All of these different areas are part of the—are part of the fiberglass work, okay?</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>So that—that—that’s—that was part of it. That was one of the blocks.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Alright. And there were other things, like riveting classes?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong> How to use a rivet gun properly. Um, All different types—all different of things on—on, Again, using sheet metal, and using—and repairing aircraft.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>What did you like best about that?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Nothing [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Nothing? Okay. So you kind of felt like you were a...</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>I was a…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Round peg…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Yes.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>In a square hole?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Exactly.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Exactly. I was not in the proper location.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>And unfortunately, the Air Force didn’t realize at the time, okay? They put me through it.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Were your instructors, um, understanding? Or…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Yes.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Patient? Or…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>They pretty—they were pretty understanding, with the exception of the one from the fiberglass area, because, uh, I ultimately did not pass the test to move on to the next phase of the Airframe Repair School. So I actually had to take a complete week all over—or, em, two weeks, I believe, or three weeks. I had to take that all over again.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>All the fiberglass work?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Yes. The fiberglass portion. And the other ones I had passed…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Uh huh.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>But the fiberglass portion, I had a very difficult time with, and, uh, I had to take that part of the program all over again.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. And then you passed it?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Yes.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. So now are you ready for the next, uh—for your next assignment?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Well, again, the reason—now, I was part of a group of students. My class, I think, was like 12 or 14 students in my class. Because I had failed the test, they moved on to the next phase, I had to wait until the next class came along to pick up with them, and to begin the fiberglass portion all over again.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Okay. Which I did. Uh, I think I had to wait a week before the next class came to the point that they were going to do the fiberglass…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Oh, okay. I see.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Block. So I waved goodbye to all of my fellow students. They had gone—they had gone on to the next phase, and started it, and started the next group. Which a second time I did pass, okay? So I finished and graduated tech school, at that point.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. So you only had to wait behind two weeks, and then do you catch up with your class again?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>No.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>No?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>No. Then I’m involved with this next…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Your [inaudible]?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>New class. [inaudible].</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. Did you go through all the training you did before?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>No. No. I just picked it up from the fiberglass portion. I’m not sure if it was the third block or the second block. I really don’t remember.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Uh huh.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>But then I just proceeded on with that class. Now, as they had finished block one and block two…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Right.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>And they went into fiber glassing. I had finished one and two, and started in with them as part of my new class, and we continued on together.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. [inaudible].</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>So I had to meet all new students, and—and get involved with the new class.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Can you describe an event that wasn’t typical in this particular time of your training? You’re in the six months training now. Is there anything that happened that wasn’t typical of an everyday experience or—that you can think of?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Mm. Not really. No. It was just pretty much—cou—can’t wait to get out and get an assignment type of situation. And, um, I—Like I said, I did the very best I can. I knew I had no choice, and, uh, I was able to pass and continue on. But it was pretty much the same routine. The only difference that we had was that we had, uh, leave on the weekends, and we were able to go into Amarillo, which There’s not much there. So we did have leave—we did have leave time then. It wasn’t like a seven days a week type of training.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay.So not really anything memoral—memorable during this time?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Not really. No.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. So at six—when you finished that six-month training…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Mmhmm.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>What happened then?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>‘Nother interesting point. I guess—I guess I had more interesting points than I thought I did. When I, um, came out of my next—with my new class, my previous class had gone on. And of course. they graduated from the technical school before I did. They all got their orders, and the entire class got orders for Vietnam, okay? So if I was in that class, I would have ended up going to Vietnam, at the time. My situation was, when I graduated and I saw my orders posted, I got sent to Europe [<em>laughs</em>]. So…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>That’s interesting</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>It is. It was lu—very lucky. Uh…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>At that point, you weren’t too [inaudible] —too very sorry that you weren’t very adept to…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>No. Not really. But of course, you know, that can change—that can change at any time also. But, uh, quite a relief on my family’s part, to say the least.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Right.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Um, It—it was—it was very, [<em>laughs</em>] very interesting time, believe me. So I was sent to Europe, uh, in what they called a “TDY outfit,” which was temporary duty assignments. Now, I was assigned to work on a [McDonnell Douglas] F-4 [Phantom II] aircraft. they called it the “phantom jet.” I worked on [McDonnell] F-101s [Voodoo], [Republic F-]105s [Thunderchief], uh, various different types of programs.</p>
<p>My basic job was to work on the outboard tanks and pylons. The pylons were, uh, the apparatus that held the bomb racks on. So we were working on putting on bomb racks on the different types of aircraft, and they would then go over to Vietnam.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Now…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>So you were specialized in your duties?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Yes. Yes. We were—we became specialized in our duties. Now, the government, at the time—again, we were set up as a temporary duty assignment. We had—had to go from base to base to work on these different aircraft. The government thought that it would be cheaper for us to travel in groups and work on these tanks and pylons, because the point of the—with these jets are: they had the jettison their outboard tanks and their pylon or bomb racks when they took off after their bombing runs. Because if they kept those on, it would add weight to the plane itself, in which case, they couldn’t get away—get away as quick, uh, without them. So they were continuously jettisoning these, and when they would come back to—to Europe, we’d have to refit them with new ones, and make—and—and get them all set up for them to go out again. Even though most of them were based right in Vietnam or Thailand and that[?], um, they still came for—for, uh, overall maintenance back to the, uh—back to Europe.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>So…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Where in Europe were you?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Okay. I was in, uh, Turkey, Italy, Greece, Libya, England, Spain, and my home base was in Germany, okay? That’s where we worked out of. We worked out of Rhein-Main [Air Base], Germany, in, uh, Frankfurt [am Main, Hesse, Germany], okay? So that’s where my main outfit was. It was Detachment 51.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. And that’s[sic] the ones you graduated with?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>No.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>[inaudible].</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Actually, some—Most of them—most of them did go on to that, but I think there were about six or seven that went to different, uh— areas, okay?</p>
<p>Uh, that’s another [<em>laughs</em>]—again, that’s another interesting point. Uh, When I flew over from, uh, New Jersey—McGuire Air Force Base. I left out of McGuire Air Force Base. It’s—it’s a funny story. There were like three planes lined up taking all of us over to Europe. There were two commercial airliners, and then there was what they called a “C-141 Galaxy.” And I said, “Oh, I’m going to go over to Europe in a nice, uh, airliner,” and I ended up going over on a military aircraft, sitting in the seats on the sides [<em>laughs</em>]. So it was kind of a bumpy ride over there.</p>
<p>But when I landed, my orders were to catch up with my unit in what they called—in a place called Chaumont[, Haute-Marne], France, okay? So I landed at Rhein-Main Air Force Base, Germany, caught a shuttle, uh—a military shuttle. Uh, it wasn’t a plane. It was a bus, alright? Down to Chaumont, France. Caught up with my, eh—with my group down there, okay? With my detachment down there. And I noticed as I went into—to the offices to report in, that they’re packing up everything. And I went and signed in, and I said to the desk sergeant or whatever his name was, “What—what’s going on,” okay? “I was told to report here.” They said, “Well, we’re leaving.” I said, “Why are you leaving?” Well, at that time, France was not in the best, you know, of friends with the—with the United States. And, uh, this is part of the NATO [North Atlantic Treaty Organization] Pact, and we were—we were leaving out of France. And I said, “Oh,” I said, “So we’re not going to stay in France?” “No.” “Well, where are we going?” He said, “Rhein-Main Air Force Base in Germany.” I said, “Wait a minute. I just came from there.” [<em>laughs</em>] I said, “I just took a bus and came from Rhein-Main.”</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Going to your official[?] [inaudible].</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>“Why didn’t anybody tell—why didn’t anybody tell me that I was going to go back to—I would never have left I would have waited for ya there.” Well, as it turned out, we went—we went back to Rhein-Main, and, um, set up shop there, and, uh, proceeded to travel all over Europe, and—and working on these tanks and pylons and—and getting them set, so that they—we can put ‘em on the planes, and they can take off.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Did you have a schedule for where you would be and…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Yes.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>How…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Yes. We had orders every—every time. Uh…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>And how did that work? Or—or did you not know ahead of time?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Um, when we finished one assignment, we’d come back for a while, and, uh, work around…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Always back to Germany?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Back to Germany. Right.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>And then get our—get our next assignment when we were told to go out…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Again.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>What was your relationship with the oth—other service personnel that you worked directly with on the pylons?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Oh, we, uh—we had a good relationship. I mean, we were a unit. We pretty much hung around together. Uh, when we had time, we played softball, uh, on—in a league on base. And again, I was a lot, a lot thinner [<em>laughs</em>] back then. And, uh, we had—we had a good time. I mean, it was pretty much a regular eight-hour day, okay? Uh, if—whether or not it was at the—at the base that we were at, or at our home base in Germany.</p>
<p>There was—every once in a while, we had assignments. Outside of our unit, was the, uh, uh Boeing 707—I think it was, um, at the time. It was the General of the Air Force’s plane, uh, of Europe</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Mmhmm.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Okay. Uh, [inaudible]. It was the General’s plane—his personal plane—was out there. Actually, come to think of it now, it was the [Boeing] KC-135 [Stratotanker] —was—which was an inflight re-fueler, where those, you know—the planes come up to it, and they drop the boom in that. Well, this was a converted KC-135 for the General. Really nice, nice plane. And we had work on that every once in a while, changing some things, and, you know, making sure that everything was okay.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>When you were, uh, at base, or on these assignments, were you always busy? Or were there times that you didn’t—were waiting for the next assignment?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Uh, No. We were busy most of the time. We were busy most of the time. I mean, once again, it was pretty much and eight-hour day, and when we were done, we had—we were free to do whatever we wanted. It was just, uh, like a normal job, except we worked [inaudible]…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. But there wasn’t a lot of just sit around and wait?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>No, no, no, no.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. How did you stay in touch with your family and friends back home?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Well, at that time, I was—there—there was no such thing as Skype, or, uh, e-mail, and things like that. So it was pretty much by letter. Just by regular letter. Sna—snail mail.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Snail mail.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Uh, do you believe you were well-trained for your assignment?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>As best as they could, considering what they had to deal with [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Uh, did you always have the equipment and the supplies that you needed…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Yes.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>To do your job?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Yes. That—that we had no trouble—we had no trouble with.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>And you mentioned you played softball.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Mmhmm.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>How else did you entertain yourself when you weren’t on duty?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Mm. Well, I’d say drink [<em>laughs</em>]. Um, Just going to different, uh—go to the USO [United Service Organization] over there, and saw stag shows, and had one—one or two beers—four or five.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Was there a USO show that was particularly memorable?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Yes. The Platters. The original Platters were there. And, um, I—I liked them from the beginning, and I was very fortunate to meet ‘em, and, uh, listen—they put on a great show.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Uh huh.Was that in Germany? Or in one of your other assignments?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>No. That was in Germany.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>It was in Germany [<em>sniffs</em>]. But When I—I was in Spain, uh, over one of the New Year’s [Eve]. I was in, uh, Madrid, Spain, and got and to see a flamenco show there. A real, real flamenco show, which was pretty good.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Did you take advantage of any, uh, sightseeing, or…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Oh, yes.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Or tours…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Yes.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>When you were there?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Yes.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. That would be entertaining [inaudible]</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Actually, um, I got married while—while I was overseas.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Uh huh.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>And my wife was in the States. She was a—she was an American. She was German—born German, but, um, I married—I got married. And she was able to come over to Europe and get a job in Germany, while I was gone. Fortunately enough, she, um, uh spoke German. So she was able to get around the economy very nicely while I was gone, because I was gone most of the time.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Uh huh.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>But it was nice to have her over there. And when—when I was back there, we were able to travel around.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Oh, nice.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>We were able to go to Holland,<a title="">[1]</a> and, uh, visit a lot of Germany. Go around—go around Germany.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>That’s a—that’s very, uh—very nice thing to have happened…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Mmhmm.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>While you’re</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Mmhmm.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Young, and, uh—and not a lot of money…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Right. Exactly.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>You cantravel around on…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Exactly.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Uh, Uncle Sam’s dime.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Mmhmm.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Uh, when were you—tell me about your ranking and how that—and how you…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Well, actually, I became a sergeant.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>You ended up a staff sergeant.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Uh, pardon me?</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>You ended up as a staff sergeant. I saw on your…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Yeah. It was a…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. You start off as a—tell me how that works.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Well, you just go in as an airman.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Okay. And then, at that time, it was, um, second class, first class, and sergeant.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Actually, I think I mis—misstated. Um, I was three stripes, which was considered a sergeant at the time.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Uh huh.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Okay. Four stripes is a staff sergeant, so…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>I made three. If I had reenlisted, I probably would have gotten a fourth stripe.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. Alright. So you ended up as a sergeant?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Right.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. And, um, when were you discharged from the military?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>August of 1970. When I rotated back from the States, I, uh, was stationed in, uh, Shaw Air Force Base in Sumter, South Carolina, which was about 7-8 months. So I lived in South Carolina, outside of Columbia.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>And how long were you there?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>I think it was 7-8 months. Something like that.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Seven—okay. Um, how did you feel once you were out of the military?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Relieved. Um, Glad I did what I did. Uh, kind of—Kind of upset as to what was going on, while I was in the military, back home with the individual tour—“pacifists,” I guess you call them—or against the war in Vietnam. I mean, I was not all in favor of what was going on, but, uh, when I did come home on leave at one time, uh, it was not ver— it was not a very good situation. I mean, we were—for all intents and purposes, we were spat at, at the airports, when we walked through. Nobody said, “Thank you for your service.” And, uh, they just didn’t like it. They didn’t like anybody in the military, or anybody in uniform. So that—that kind of part was tough.</p>
<p>Um, Again, I was relieved. But on the other hand, I felt that all of my friends—I was the only one of all my friends back in Rochester. I was the only one to go into the military, and felt that I was four years behind them in education and—and, um—and just getting on with my life. So, you know, it—both sides. I felt good with serving, but on the other hand, I felt that I lost some time.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Um, once you were out, what did you do?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>[<em>sniffs</em>] Another good, interesting situation. Uh, when I got out of the service, my wife became pregnant [<em>laughs</em>]. And, uh, it was probably from the week I got discharged [<em>laughs</em>]</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Uh huh.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>She—she got pregnant. In which case, if she got pregnant while we were in the military, the government would have paid for it. If she had given birth while I was in, the military would have paid for it.</p>
<p>But I, uh—when I got out of the service, my main goal was to get back to school. I wanted to get my degree in accounting and—and go on from there. But a little s—s—little turn of events when your wife becomes pregnant. Going to day school is pretty difficult. So I took a job. um, and again, I got out in August, and, uh, school was going to start in September, but I was gonna take—go to night school, okay? And—and get a job during the day. But until that time started, I went to work at McDonald’s, uh, slinging hamburgers. See, eh, eh, my memory’s coming back. I was going to go to day school.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Uh huh.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>So I wasn’t going to enroll until September, but I needed some—to get some income coming in, uh, for my wife and that. So I went to work at McDonald’s slinging hamburgers, which was not a great experience. Because here’s an older gentleman, who’s, uh, slinging hamburgers with a bunch of teenagers, and looking at me, thinking, <em>Boy, he must be a real loser if he’s doing this</em>, not knowing the situation. But I got the job in telling ‘em that I was going to—I wanted to go to school training to become a manager at McDonald’s. This is how I got the job. And, uh, the owner of the place said, “Okay.” He said, “But you—but in order to do that, you have to learn all the different areas of—of McDonald’s.” French fries, working on the grill, the clean-up, the whole bit. . I said, “Okay.” Well, that lasted about a week—week and a half—and I just couldn’t handle it anymore. I would come home smelling terrible from all the fat that was in the French fries. So that lasted maybe a week—week and a half.</p>
<p>But we managed. Um, and I did start going to school, but things got to a point where I just needed to get money. So I went—I was going back to night school. I went to night school, and got a job. Uh, at that time, [<em>sniffs</em>] I was working, I believe, at one of the local manufacturing companies in their finance department. I was working in their cost accounting department. Even though I didn’t have a degree, they—they put me on as—in a lower level type of position. But it was bringing in income, and I—I was able to go to school at night.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>And where was this, Larry?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Rochester Institute of Technology.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Oh, you were back in…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Yeah.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Back in New York<strong>.</strong></p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>I was back in Rochester. I went back to New York.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. Were you—were there any G.I.<a title="">[2]</a> benefits</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Yes.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>That you were able to take advantage of?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Yes. Absolutely. I was on the G.I. Bill.<a title="">[3]</a> Helped me pay for my schooling. Yes. Definitely.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. And so you’re working in the daytime and…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Mmhmm.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>And going to school at night.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Right.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Mmhmm.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>And, uh, we talked about how you were treated…</p>
<p>[<em>background noise</em>]</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>When you came home, and that, um, there was, um, uh, disrespect…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Mmhmm.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Dor you as a soldier. Now…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Right.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Was that set across the board every time you came home on leave? Or, uh, did you notice that when you would go to New York? Or when you would go—when you came back to South Carolina? Was there a difference in the way the local people treated you?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Not really. No. Not that I can remember. It was just an area that they didn’t go out of their way to—to do anything. More like they were trying to ignore us, then, um—like we were the—the plague.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Mmhmm.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Okay. And just no—no respect. No respect for anyone. And that’s what makes me feel so good now is that you’re seeing these, uh, individuals in the military, and people are giving them respect and thanking them for their service. So that’s one of the areas where I—I felt cheated out of also—is not getting the respect and that, because it was four years of my life, and that’s a long time.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>It is a long time, especially at that age.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Right. Exactly.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Uh, did your military experience affect your civilian life in any way?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>I became more appreciative of life. Um, More appreciative of the things that I—that I was able to get, uh, of—of my family at the time. Because being away from them most of the—now fortunately, like I said, my wife was able to come with—to come with me over to Europe, but, uh, I missed my brothers and my—and my father. My mother had passed away prior to that, so, uh—but, yeah. Uh, a lot of things, uh—a lot of things that I was more appreciative of, at the time.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Do you think that you were more serious in your education than you would have been as a 20…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Most definitely. Most definitely. That’s a very good point. I looked at my education totally different. Uh, more—I—I was more involved with history. Um, I—I didn’t feel at the time—you see, there was a lot—a lot difference in going to school and being, pretty much, made to go to school, or that—that was the norm. You—you went to high school. You finished high school. You went to college and then you went on from there.</p>
<p>And because of the interruption, I looked at it from a different stand point that, you know, this is an opportunity. This is a great opportunity, and, uh, the government is helping me with this opportunity, through the G.I. Bill. I’m going to take full advantage of it. So I took full courses. And if anybody knows about Rochester, New York, and going to school at night in Rochester, New York, in the middle of winter is not easy. Okay. It was cold. It was freezing. It was snowing. But, uh, I had a family to support, and I wanted to be able to get my education, so Luckily, I was able to complete it.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Okay. Looking back on it all, can you describe about how you feel about your service? You said that you were glad you did it…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Mmhmm. Mmhmm.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>And anything else you want to add to that?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>No. Other—other than the fact that, um, I personally think that it makes a—a person better going into the military. And I for one, feel that it should be mandatory, because there’s a lot of kids that are going to—to education and that, because they don’t know what else to do.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>And so you feel it…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Okay. And I think when they say it—when they say…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Gives them time to mature and…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>I’m sorry. What’s that?</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>It gives them time to mature…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Absolutely.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>And to learn…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Absolutely.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>A little about the world and…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>And to grow up…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>And to grow up.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>And to grow up…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>And to learn some discipline [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Yes. That’s the other area. That’s the other area. Like I said, so many don’t know what they want to do with themselves, and they end up in the military. Although they didn’t give me the opportunity to go in the direction that I wanted to. It certainly opened up my eyes to a lot of things. And one is independence. You know, being independent, being able to do things on your own, uh, washing your own clothes, making your own bed, uh, choosing the right things to do.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Did you become more adept to working with your hands?</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>I wish I could say yes [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>] Some things you just can’t learn.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Some things that you—you have a difficult time doing. That’s correct. Um, I think I’m a little better with a hammer and nails now than I was. I wouldn’t go as far as work with any kind of sheet metal or anything, because I’m sure I would cut my fingers up in shreds, but Yeah. I think I’m a little bit better. I can—I can…</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>Well, Larry, I thank you for your service. And I thank you for this—for you doing this…</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Well, it was a pleasure.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>With us.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Very enjoyable. Very enjoyable.</p>
<p><strong>Young<br /></strong>And, uh, I enjoyed talking with you about it.</p>
<p><strong>Levine<br /></strong>Mmhmm. Thank you. Thank you.</p>
<div><br /><div>
<p><a title="">[1]</a> Formally called The Netherlands.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a title="">[2]</a> Government Issue or General Issue.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a title="">[3]</a> Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944.</p>
</div>
</div>
Click to View (Movie, Podcast, or Website)
<a href="http://stars.library.ucf.edu/veteransoralhistories/259/" target="_blank">Levine, Lawrence Paul</a>
accounting
advanced training
Airframe Repair School
airframe repair specialists
airframe repairman
airframe repairmen
airplanes
Amarill, Texas
Amarillo AFB
Amarillo Air Force Base
anti-war movement
basic training
Boeing 707
Boeing KC-135 Stratotanker
Brown University
BU
Bureau of Customs and Border Protection
Burlington County, New Jersey
C-141 Galaxy
colorblindness
Community Veterans History Project
conscription
Custom Service
CVHP
Detachment 51
draft board
draft lottery
drafts
education
enlistment
Europe
F-101
F-105
F-4
fast food restaurants
fiber glassing
fiberglass
firearms
Frankfurt am Main, Germany
G.I. Bill
Germany
Good Conduct Medal
gun ranges
guns
instructors
Ishihara Color Test
jet
jet fighter
jets
KC-135
Lackland AFB
Lackland Air Force Base
Larry Levine
Lawrence Paul Levin
marching
marriages
Mary Hughes Young
McDonald's
McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II
McDonnell F-101 Voodoo
Mcguire AFB
Mcguire Air Force Base
metal
military draft
military education
military training
pacifism
pacifists
peace movement
phantom jets
planes
protests
Providence, Rhode Island
pylon
Republic F-105 Thunderchief
Rhein-Main AB
Rhein-Main Air Base
RIT
riveting
Rochester Institute of Technology
Rochester, New York
San Antonio, Texas
Selective Service System
Sergeant
Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944
sharpshooters
sharpshooting
Shaw AFB
Shaw Air Force Base
sheet metal
Staff Sergeant
Sumter, South Carolina
TDY
temporary duty
The Platters
TI
training
U.S. Air Force
U.S. Air Force in Europe
U.S. Army
U.S. Army Air Corps
U.S. Bureau of Customs and Border Protection
U.S. Customs Service
United Service Organization
USAFE
USO
veterans
Vietnam
Vietnam War
World War II
WWII
-
https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka/files/original/8484ca00e529b1952c08d4ac340f7380.pdf
890d365fab807170fe38306cbad1935f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
Vietnam War Collection
Alternative Title
Vietnam Collection
Subject
Vietnam War, 1961-1975
Veterans--Florida
Description
The Vietnam War was a Cold War Era "military conflict." The war was originally waged between Cambodia, Vietnam, and Laos. The United States became involved as a preventive measure to combat communism. The date of the war has been disputed, but a study in 1998 by the Department of Defense definitively put the start of the Vietnam War as November 1, 1955.
The first combat military troops 9th Marine Expeditionary Brigade didn't arrive until 1965. With the arrival of the combat troops came the first traditional battles of combat fighting in the war. During the Vietnam War, not only did American military go into battle with and for South Vietnam, the military also trained members of South Vietnam to fight alongside during the war. Peace talks were attempted, with France moderating, beginning on May 10, 1968. These talks were unsuccessful and lasted over three years.
The longest battle of the Vietnam War began on January 21, 1968 and didn't end until the U.S. reclaimed Route 9 on April 8, 1968, 77 days later. While the military conflict ended in April of 1975, it was a long process towards reunification and redevelopment as a country. The conflict left Vietnam in both political and economical ruins.
Contributor
<a href="http://digitalcollections.net.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>
Is Part Of
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/24" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project Collection</a>, RICHES of Central Florida.
Language
eng
Type
Collection
Coverage
Vietnam
Contributing Project
<a href="http://digitalcollections.net.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>
Curator
Cepero, Laura
Digital Collection
<a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a><span>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida</span>
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a>
Source Repository
<a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a><span>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida</span>
External Reference
<span>"</span><a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">About the Project</a><span>." UCF Community Veterans History Project, RICHES of Central Florida, University of Central Florida. http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/.</span>
Herring, George C. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/5126110" target="_blank"><em>America's Longest War: The United States and Vietnam, 1950-1975</em></a>. New York: Wiley, 1979.
"<a title="American Experience" href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vietnam/timeline/tl3.html" target="_blank">American Experience</a>." Public Broadcasting Company. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vietnam/timeline/tl3.html.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
Scherer, Rose Marie "Judy"
Interviewee
McGuire, George G.
Location
University of Central Florida, Orlando, Florida
Original Format
1 audio/video DVD/CD
Duration
43 minutes and 22 seconds
Bit Rate/Frequency
157kbps
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
Oral History of George G. McGuire
Alternative Title
Oral History, McGuire
Subject
Veterans--Florida
Orlando (Fla.)
Vietnam War, 1961-1985
Air Force
Army
Description
An oral history interview of George G. McGuire, who joined the U.S. Air Force in 1963 and served until 1983. He was born on Summit, New Jersey, on October 17, 1941. A veteran of the Vietnam War era, McGuire achieved the rank of Lieutenant Colonel.<br /><br />This interview was conducted by Judy Scherer on April 1, 2014. Interview topics include McGuire's background and family, his college education, join the Air Force Reserve Officer Training Corps (AFROTC), Whiteman Air Force Base, McCoy Air Force Base, duties as a procurement officer and a contract administrator, the Defense Contract Administration Services, serving in Bangkok during the Vietnam War, the U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations (USAFOSI), the Rock Island Arsenal, military retirement, U.S.-Thailand relations, and his many travel experiences.
Table Of Contents
0:00:00 Introduction<br />0:02:33 College years<br />0:03:06 Air Force Reserve Officers' Training Corps and Whiteman Air Force Base <br />0:04:42 McCoy Air Force Base<br />0:05:42 George Washington University, Defense Contract Administration Services, and Bangkok, Thailand<br />0:07:05 U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations<br />0:14:55 Assignments in the United States<br />0:15:33 Bangkok and Mom Rajawongse Seni Promoj<br />0:21:45 Duties as a Contract Administrator<br />0:23:24 Interesting people and stories from Thailand<br />0:28:06 Communicating with family<br />0:30:23 Communicating with Thais<br />0:35:50 Visiting South Korea with his wife<br />0:39:42 Closing remarks
Abstract
Oral history interview of George G. McGuire. Interview conducted by Judy Scherer at the University of Central Florida in Orlando, Florida.
Type
Moving Image
Source
<a href="http://stars.library.ucf.edu/veteransoralhistories/269/" target="_blank">McGuire, George G.</a> Interviewed by Judy Scherer, April 1, 2014. Audio/video record available. <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, RICHES of Central Florida, University of Central Florida, Orlando, Florida.
Requires
<a href="http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/" target="_blank">Adobe Flash Player</a>
<a href="http://java.com/en/download/index.jsp" target="_blank">Java</a>
<a href="https://get.adobe.com/reader/" target="_blank">Adobe Acrobat Reader</a>
Is Part Of
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, Orlando, Florida.
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/92" target="_blank">Vietnam War Collection</a>, UCF Community Veterans History Project Collection, RICHES of Central Florida.
Has Format
Digital transcript of original 43-minute and 22-second oral history: <a href="http://stars.library.ucf.edu/veteransoralhistories/269/" target="_blank">McGuire, George G.</a> Interviewed by Judy Scherer, April 1, 2014.
Conforms To
Standards established by the <a href="http://www.loc.gov/vets/" target="_blank">Veterans History Projects</a>, Library of Congress.
Coverage
Summit, New Jersey
Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Fawley, England
Durban, South Africa
Statue of Liberty, Liberty Island, New York City, New York
University of Notre Dame, Notre Dame, Indiana
Whiteman Air Force Base, Missouri
McCoy Air Force Base, Orlando, Florida
George Washington University, Washington, D.C.
Defense Contract Administration Services Management Office, Naval Air Station Sand Point, Seattle, Washington
Chokchai Building, Bangkok, Thailand
Armed Forces Staff College, Norfolk, Virginia
Washington, D.C.
Yokota Air Base, Fussa, Japan
Rock Island Arsenal, Rock Island-Moline, Illinois
Warsaw, Missouri
Osan Air Base, Pyeongtaek-si, South Korea
Seoul, South Korea
Creator
McGuire, George G.
Scherer, Judy
Publisher
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>
Date Created
2014-02-22
Date Issued
2014-09
Date Copyrighted
2014-02-22
Format
video/mp4
application/pdf
Extent
358 MB
257 MB
Medium
43-minute and 22-second audio/video DVD/CD
27-page digital transcript
Language
eng
Mediator
History Teacher
Civics/Government Teacher
Geography Teacher
Provenance
Originally created by Judy Scherer and George G. McGuire and published by <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>.
Rights Holder
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>
Accrual Method
Item Creation
Contributing Project
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>
Curator
Cepero, Laura
Digital Collection
<a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a>
Source Repository
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>
External Reference
Herring, George C. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/5126110" target="_blank"><em>America's Longest War: The United States and Vietnam, 1950-1975</em></a>. New York: Wiley, 1979.
Click to View (Movie, Podcast, or Website)
<a href="http://stars.library.ucf.edu/veteransoralhistories/269/" target="_blank">McGuire, George G.</a>
Transcript
<p><strong>Unidentified<br /></strong>We’re ready.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Are you saying go?</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>] Today is April the 1<sup>st</sup>, 2014. I am interviewing, uh, Lieutenant Colonel George G. McGuire. My name is [Rose Marie] “Judy” Scherer. Uh, please call me Judy. Um, his interview is being conducted at UCF [University of Central Florida] in Orlando, Florida. It is part of the UCF, um—the whole title is—is Community History Project—[Community] Veterans History Project. Um, so we are going to start with, um, the early days. I would like to ask you where you were born and grew up.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Alright. Well, I was born in New Jersey—Summit, New Jersey. And When I was, uh, a few weeks old, my family moved on to Baton Rouge[, Louisiana].</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Wow [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Where my father worked in the oil refinery at Baton Rouge during World War II, and where I managed to acquire twin brothers and a sister.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Oh [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Um, Shortly—well, not shortly. When I was about eight years old—eight or nine years old—we moved to England.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Oh.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Where my father was building an oil refinery at Fawley, near South Hampton, for Esso in England. After we had been there about three years, we moved to Durban, South Africa.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Wow.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Where he was again a resident engineer for construction of an oil refinery—first one on the continent of Africa—and where I acquired a brother. I had acquired another sister in England, and now I had a brother in South Africa, so there are six children.</p>
<p>We sailed back to the United States. This is now approximately 1954 on a ship called the <em>African Enterprise</em>, which was a, um, freighter—combination freighter and passenger ship that carried a few passengers. And we were the only children, so we had the run of the ship.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>And that was great fun. We got back to, uh, New York in the middle of the wintertime. And my memory says it was in February, but that may not be right. And of course, being good loyal little Americans who had been out of the country for so many years, we had to stand up on the ship and watch Miss [the Statue of] Liberty as we came into New York Harbor.</p>
<p>Uh, following that, we lived in New Jersey for a number of years. And then I went off to college at the University of Notre Dame. And shortly afterwards, my father quit his job and moved to Massachusetts.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>And, uh, the bane of my life was that when I would go home for vacation to a place in Massachusetts surrounded by girls’ colleges, they all had vacation break at the same time as we did.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>So there was nobody there.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>And of course, Notre Dame at that time was all men, and there were no women there, unless we found some in the local community, which was a very difficult thing to do.</p>
<p>Uh, At Notre Dame, they had three R—all three ROTC [Reserve Officers' Training Corps] programs. This is 1959 when I started there. There’s a shooting [Vietnam] War going on in Asia. People are being drafted. I had no interest in being drafted and being given a rifle and go shoot people, so I said <em>Okay. I’d rather be an officer. And no, I don’t want to walk around in the mud, and I don’t want to sit on a boat bobbing up and down in the ocean. And since you have Air Force, I will go Air Force.</em></p>
<p>Um, so I did. And when I was graduating Notre Dame, I was commissioned as a Second Lieutenant in the United States Air Force and promptly sent to Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri.</p>
<p>So one of the first things I did was I bought myself a car. I didn’t have a car at that point, so I brought a brand new, shiny red Valiant convertible. And that was a neat looking car. I shaw—showed up on base, and went into my first assignment, and the people I’m working with—one of them takes one look at that car and says, “I give you one year.”</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Uh huh. And, uh, he turned out to be right. Because a few months later, I met a young lady, and less than a year later, we were married. All fault is directed at that shiny red convertible, I suppose.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>About a year or so after we were married, I got orders to transfer to McCoy Air Force Base, which, of course that’s a hardship tour to come to McCoy Air Force Base, which is now Orlando International Airport, where I was the base procurement officer here.</p>
<p>Now, they had assigned me to procurement when I went to Whiteman, and I didn’t know what “procurement” was. I only knew one meaning for the term, and it had more to do with what you did after hours than it did with buying anything the Air Force wanted. Anyway, I became procurement officer. “Procurement” just simply means that you’re the guy in charge of going out and buying stuff.</p>
<p>So I was stationed here in McCoy, and, um, about that time, is when what was then called “Orlando Air Force Base” is transitioning to the Navy. And the last Air Force unit to transition out from Orlando Air Force Base was the hospital. So my two sons have the distinction of having been born in an Air Force hospital on a Navy base.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>From here, the, uh, Air Force sent me up to Washington, D.C., to go to George Washington University for a Master’s Degree in Business Administration, as my assignment for a year and a half. And then from there, to go to Seattle, Washington, to the, uh, Defense Contract Administration Services management area Office, otherwise known as DCAS.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Excuse me. What was it known as?</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>DCAS. D-C-A-S.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>S.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Judy had a problem with this one earlier.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Which was at, um, Sand Point Naval Air Station, which was a little pimple on the side of the wealthiest area of ci—city of Seattle, a few blocks away from the University of Washington. Not very far from it. It no longer is a military installation. It’s now high-cost residential.</p>
<p>Um, let’s see. from there, the next assignment was to Bangkok, Thailand, to be the, uh—one of the officers assigned to the Air Force’s Procurement Center in Downtown Bangkok, which was supporting all of the Air Force and some of the Army units, uh, throughout Thailand and, uh, Vietnam. And this is at the tail end of the Vietnam War.</p>
<p>From there, I went back to the United St—came back to the United States to go to uh, Norfolk, Virginia, to the Armed Forces Staff College.</p>
<p>And then from there, to the, uh, Air Force OSI—Air Force Office of Special Investigations—in Washington, D.C., to act as an in-house consultant on procurement matters. Air Force OSI had been founded la—years before, in the very early days of the Air Force, because of scandal having to do with contracting. And then they had gotten away from that and they had forgotten had to spell “contracting.”</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>As they got mostly inter—interested in chasing drugs. But in, um—somewhere around 1970, there was another big scandal that came up that didn’t have anything to do with the Air Force, but it did with the Navy. And the Air Force decided that it would be smart to get back into that business and pay attention, because we are spending just huge sums of money. We ought to be paying attention to it. And the first thing they needed to do was to find somebody who knew something about the procurement system and could come in and act as an in-house consultant to them, and so they chose me.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Really?</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>So for two years, I taught OSI agents how to spell “procurement” and the kinds of things to look for. The big thing coming out of it was to find out just how honest the system really is at that level. There may be corruption at other levels, but at the level of the working people doing the job, it is a very, very honest system.</p>
<p>Um, now what did I skip? Somewhere in here, I skipped something. No. I guess not. When that was finished, they sent me to Japan to be the Deputy Director of the Air Force’s Procurement Center in Tokyo—actually, at Yokota Air Force Base,<a title="">[1]</a> which is just in the western suburbs of Tokyo—in which I had the responsibility for all of the, um, in-country support for Air Force and Army, and staff responsibilities towards the, uh, Army Center—similar to it in Korea, that took care of Air Force and Army in Korea.</p>
<p>And, uh, let me think for a moment. Oh, yes. One of the, um, cases that I had run in the OSI had been an accusation made against the Lieutenant Colonel who commanded the Air Force Procurement Center at Yokota Air Base—that he was corrupt, and that he was accepting bribes from, uh, one of the car companies , which the, uh, U.S had a contract with for small engines.</p>
<p>Well, the truth of the story—it turned out, that the man was an elder of the Mormon Church,<a title="">[2]</a> as well, as being a[sic] Air Force officer. And he had led a church group on a visit to the plant. Just a visit to go see what the plant looks like. And his big mistake: when he got back to his office was he had written the thank you note on Air Force letterhead, rather than on Mormon Church letterhead. And that had kicked off all of these accusations that he was, uh, a corrupt and on the take from this car company, which of course, he was not. But we had spent a bunch of time going and checking it out, so I knew all about it [<em>laughs</em>] before I got there.</p>
<p>Um, then that was followed by an assignment back in the United States to go to Rock Island Arsenal [in Rock Island-Moline, Illinois] to be the Deputy Director of the ammunition procurement division for U.S. Army Armament Material and [the U.S. Army Military Intelligence] Readiness Command, functioning as something called “Single Manager for Conventional Ammunition.”</p>
<p>Army buys all the ammunition used by the military—all production ammunition, not development, but production—ammunition used by the military, of whom the Air Force was the second largest consumer. And therefore, the Air Force, to help with that mission, sent six officers to Rock Island to participate. And at th—this point, I am a Lieutenant Colonel. And so I became the Deputy Director of that division. We spent in that one division—and this is 1980—one and a half billion…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>gasps</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Dollars a year. This is peacetime. One and a half billion. Buying bits and pieces of little things, most of which costs less than one dollar a unit, and the most expensive one was ten dollars a unit. All over the country. And then, the things we bought would flow to the Army load plants to be made up into rounds of ammunition—most of them. And they spent another billion and a half or so putting the stuff together as ammunition.</p>
<p>Okay. So I’m making decisions every day about how am I spending one and a half billion dollar budget. I’ve got a hundred people literally working for me. Uh, we are loading plants all over the country. We are making decisions about which factories we keep in business and which ones we don’t, and which communities stay in business because the factory’s there, and which ones don’t. And then I go home, and I have to be concerned if there was enough money in the checking account for my wife to go grocery shopping.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Whoa. A great[?] contrast.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>This got a little bit mind-bending at times.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Quite a contrast.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Hm?</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Quite a contrast.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Quite a contrast. Yeah. And then, uh, I retired.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Yes.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>At this point. I had been in the Air Force for 20 years and three weeks</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>And I decided it was time to go. I had three kids that needed to go to college, and they weren’t going to do it on Lieutenant Colonel’s pay, so I had to go do something else.</p>
<p>And another interesting thing, to me at least, was that I had joined Air Force ROTC back there in college, because I had no desire to be anywhere near the Army or the Navy, but especially the Army. And so for my final tour of duty, I am winding up serving with the Army</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Oh.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>As one of their officers [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /> </strong>Anyway, so that’s it.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>What—when were you serving for the Army? Was that duty procur—procure—procurement, or was that when you [inaudible]?</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>No. That was with the Army. I was Deputy Director…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Yeah.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>For Ammunition Procurement.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Yeah.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Deputy Directory of Ammunition Procurement Division of that Army command.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Well, it all is very impressive, and I’m sure it was most important, but it sounds to me like your career was drug[?] running and buying guns [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Uh, no. actually…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Just joking.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>I might have bought some drugs along the way.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>To find out where [inaudible].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>But they would have been legal ones.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Um, Never bought any guns. Never bought an airplane, but I bought just about everything else.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Well, when you were doing procurement, the rifles—what were you actually…</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Oh, I didn’t buy the rifles. I bought the ammunition that went in the rifles.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Oh, you bought the ammunition. Sorry. Yeah.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Somebody else bought the rifles.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Oh, you [inaudible].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>There was another group doing that.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Yes.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>And there was another officer.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Mmhmm.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Other officers assigned to that.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer</strong>So you said you were in Bang—so—so you said you were in Bangkok</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Mmhmm.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>And then you were in Thailand—I mean, Thailand is Bangkok.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Yes.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>And other places, but um, did you—did you do anything in the states? How long were you in the states at the end of the career?</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Well, it was three years in, uh, Rock Island.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Yes.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>It was three years at McCoy Air Force Base.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Yes.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>So two years in Whiteman’s. So that’s at least eight years of doing procurement there. And it was two years in the OSI, advising the OSI people about procurement—participating in, uh—in their actions.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Could you enlarge a little about your stay in Bangkok, and tell us more about what you did, and how difficult or easy it was? Because of the place, of course, it is always very hot there. [inaudible].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Yes. As we were talking earlier, if you got a, um, weather report for Orlando and a weather report for Bangkok, for the months of July, August, and September, you could not tell the difference as to which city you’re reading the report on. It’s the same.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Interesting.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>The difference is, of course, that Orlando does cool down—some. Bangkok doesn’t. The, uh—Bangkok only has, um, three temperatures—hot, hotter, and hellatious.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Uh, Bangkok was a very interesting and very, very different, uh, type of assignment. At that time, the Air Force’s procurement office was in a building in the center of Bangkok. It was called the “Chokchai Building,” and it, uh—it wasn’t terribly tall. My memory says seven floors, but it might’ve been more. Uh, the city was built on swamp, so the building was constructed such that it floated. And its basement was a big concrete barge, and it was floating. Now, the technology has progressed, and you go to Bangkok, and there are skyscrapers all over the place. It’s a fairly modern city, but at that time it was not.</p>
<p>And, uh, so I was there as one of the officers assigned to that position. My memory says there were four of us, at that point, and I was the fifth one kind of detached. And, um, we just bought all the goods and services that the U.S. Air Force required in Thailand. And at that time, we had several bases scattered all over Thailand. And we had, um, people working for us—enlisted, uh, men—working for us at each base, also during procurement, but they were doing it as our subordinates for the stuff that had to come really from the local community. But otherwise, uh, we would buy the stuff in Bangkok—things in Bangkok. And this would be stuff—oh, it would be food, it would be entertainment, it would be the gas for the propane heaters, uh.—you name it. We would be buying it in Bangkok.</p>
<p>Um, We lived in a, uh compound, which was very much like a park, that was a little ways away from the, uh—from the office. And, uh, you walked in there and it was a beautiful little park-like area. It was lined with houses, all of which are rented to, uh, foreigners, like ourselves. Either American or Australian or somebody else, or the, uh, members of the diplomatic corps. And at the front of the—of the property, there was a very old, interesting Thai gentleman, and at the back of the property was his son and his family. And the fellow at the front—named [Mom Rajawongse] Seni Pramoj.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Seni Pramoj? [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Seni Pramoj. Now Seni Pramoj is rather important in Thai-American relations. In World War II, the Japanese moved into Thailand, and Thailand declared war on the United States.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>I never [inaudible].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Seni Pramoj was the ambassador in Washington, D.C. He refused to deliver the declaration of war. United States chose to ignore it. When WWII ended, the United States chose—says, “Thailand was not an enemy combatant. They were an occupied country.” Other Allies had different opinions, and there’s[sic] arguments about it. And so the United States agreed, “Okay. We would take a little, tiny bit of reparations. We ‘ll take one house.” And it became the residence of the American Ambassador.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>That’s a fascinating story.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Seni Pramoj later was president of Thailand…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Oh, really?</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>At one time or another.<a title="">[3]</a></p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Oh.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>But at the time we met him, he is the landlord, sitting up at the front of the compound.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Oh[?].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>And we didn’t see him very often, but we did—knew who he was. But, um…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>I thought you were going to say he was the watchman. You know, because [inaudible].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>No. We figured that the—there was very little obvious security in that compound. There was no real guard at the gate or noth—but there were gardeners all over the place, and we figured they were all Thai CID [Criminal Investigator's Department].</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>]Well, one of them was very important.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>And, uh…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>And I—I think that’s a story that is well worth recording, because it shows how a war was, uh—was, um, avoided by simple, you know…</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Yeah, um…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Simple contacts.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>So, America has been—had a treaty of friendship with Thailand since 1835, or something like that. It was the first one we signed with anybody in Asia.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Oh, that’s interesting. [inaudible].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>‘Course, at that time, I think Thailand was probably about the only independent Asian country that we could get into. Japan was closed. China was, uh, occupied by several people. The—the British had Burma<a title="">[4]</a> and Malaya, And Dutch had Indonesia, and the French had Cambodia and Vietnam. And Thailand was in the middle. And we signed a treaty of friendship with those folks.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Yeah.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>which I think has paid off very handsomely for us.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Too bad it’s so unique.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>And it’s very unique.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Yeah.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>During the, um, Vietnam War, Thailand actively participated in the war. And Thailand provided us with access to their facilities, and that’s the only time they have ever done that for anybody that’s not Thai.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Yes[?]. [inaudible].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>So, um, [inaudible].</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>I wish—wish they had done the same thing in Vietnam.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Well…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>You know, after [Ngô Đình] Diệm [inaudible]. But I’m supposed to ask you questions, and you answer at length</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Yeah. So…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>And I ask very short questions, but you’re asking at length very well [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>One of the…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>So I don’t have to ask you many questions.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>One of the jobs I had, while I was there in Thailand, was to be the Contract Administrator for the Thai security guard contract. We employed…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>That sounds like a Chinese title. It’s so long.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Almost.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Can you say it again?</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Thai security guard contract. To be the contract administrator. We had a contract, and it was written as a regular Air Force Procurement contract, between ourselves and the [Thai] Ministry of Defense, whereby they provided, uh, Thai military reserves to act as the security guards for all of our forces—our locations, rather—all over the country of Thailand.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Interesting.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Every little—every U.S…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[inaudible].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Space. Now, some of those were big. They’re big air bases. There’re lots of people. And some of them were little tiny listening posts…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Out in the jungle…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Wow.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>With maybe one or two Americans—well, usually more than that—maybe four Americans, and four or five Thai security guardsman to take care of them, to keep them safe, and literally keep the tigers from coming into the, uh…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[inaudible].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Into the post.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Mmhmm. That’s unusual.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Yeah, and part of my duties were[sic] to go and inspect every one of those installations all over that country to make sure people are doing the job right.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Well…</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Which I did.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Yes. I’m sure you…</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Which was a very interesting [inaudible].</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>I’m sure you did it very arduously, but it sounds very interesting.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>It was. It was very interesting.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Yeah.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Uh, so where do we go next?</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>I want to ask you if you, in all—in all these different places you’ve been, if you met any characters that stay—stayed in your mind as being particularly interesting, either, you know, um, good, bad, or eccentric, or whatever?</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Hm. Strange…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Because your experiences are so different from other people’s in the military.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Yeah.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Usually[?], they’re in a unit, or they’re on some ship, and so on. But you were all over the place with all kinds of people, from the important ones to the not-so important ones.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Yeah, but some of them were just ordinary folk. Uh, like[?] I was. [inaudible].</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>But you had to find people who spoke English, I presume.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Yes. And in most of the world, you can get by on English.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>That’s true.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Most educated Thais could speak some English.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Mmhmm.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>The, uh, officers on the Thai side, with whom I interfaced—one was an Admiral, the other was an Army Major, uh—spoke—spoke beautiful English.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Yes[?].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Um…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>That was—your stories are so interesting.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>That…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Can you tell another story that—of interest…</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>From that…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[inaudible].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Well, there is one other one of interest from that. I went to one of the bases, and the, uh—the guardsmen work on the base. They work for the American, uh, military police chief, whoever he is. And so, I was talking to him one day, and he was telling me about a young airman who wanted to get married. Now, before a serviceman can get married overseas, especially in a warzone, his, uh, bride has to be vetted through the American Embassy.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Mmhmm.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>And most Americans, when they look at a Thai woman, cannot tell how old she is…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Until she is elderly, and then it’s obvious that she’s elderly. But as long as she is fairly young up through middle age, you’ve got no idea how old she is, when you look at her.</p>
<p>So there was this, uh, one young fellow, who wanted to get married and this—this is, um—now, this is 1974 time period—to, uh, his Thai honey. And when they started checking on her, they found out that she had been a prostitute for the Japanese forces, when the Japanese had occupied this particular base 30 years earlier.</p>
<p><strong>Unidentified<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Very interesting turnaround[?].</p>
<p><strong>Unidentified<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>] So our 18 year old—18 year old…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Yeah.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>American G.I. couldn’t tell she was probably 45.</p>
<p><strong>All<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Interesting. That’s interesting story.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Yeah.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Do you have friends around the world that you made at that time?</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>We did have for a long time, but then, um, over the years…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Yeah.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>They’re gone. The Admiral that[sic], uh, had been in charge from the Thai side—I kept in touch with for a long time, but then he died.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>I’m not supposed to add anything to this, but I have to say that a prostitute who was a prostitute for the Japanese was[?]—was, uh—was quite often recruited and kept as a slave for soldiers.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Oh, more than likely.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>What did they call them? There’s a name for them. But anyway…</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Uh, comfort girls.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer <br /></strong>Comfort girls.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Or comfort women, rather.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>She—that could have happened to her. I mean, but still, she was old.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>It might have been.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[inaudible].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>But the point of the story wasn’t so much that she’d been a prostitute.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>That she was old.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>It was that she was at least 45 years old…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>And our 18 year old airman couldn’t tell.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>] That would’ve been an interesting—or a—have made a rather easy decision for the superior to make [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Yes. I don’t think she got her clearance.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>] So do you—yeah. Do you keep in touch with anyone that[sic] was posted in those places with you?</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>No. By now, I have lost—well, with all, except one. I still keep in touch with the man I worked for when I was in Japan.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Oh, yes.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>But, uh…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[inaudible].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>The rest of them, time has gone by.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Tell us about more colorful characters you’ve met.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>ike, I don’t, uh—Well, one of the most colorful characters was a fellow out there when I was a Thailand—American officer, who had lost the, um, first two joints of[?] one of his fingers, through some kind of accident. He cut it off with a saw or something. It wasn’t—it wasn’t particularly interesting. But the thing was he only had that much. Now in Thailand, you bargained at that time. You bargain for everything, and—but the currency is baht. So we would go and we would say, “Four baht,” and “Five baht,” “Ten baht.” whatever. Well, he could bargain in half baht.</p>
<p><strong>Unidentified<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>] I see why you remember him.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>That’s my main memory of him, is he could bargain in half bahts.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>I’m going to ask you a two-step question. Number one: did you ever keep a diary or make notes of what you were doing? Um…</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>No.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Oh, that’s [inaudible]—that’s more or less the answer then. Because, uh, it would be interesting, and you probably would have forgotten by now some of the things. Some of the [inaudible].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Oh, I’m sure I’ve forgotten probably most of it by now.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Yeah.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>But no. I did—never kept any diary. I got movies and slides and stuff like that, but…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>So what about your family, that were in the states whilst you were doing all this? Did you keep in touch with them fairly well?</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Well, my family was with me.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>No. Not your immediate family. I mean, your…</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Oh.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Parents and siblings[?].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>My parents, and my brothers and sisters and siblings?</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Yeah.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Oh, yeah.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Yeah.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>I still do keep in touch with them.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Yeah.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Now, my parents are long gone, but yeah. My brothers and sisters and I still keep in touch.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Well, of course, we didn’t have email or anything, so what did you do? Write to them?</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Yeah. We write—wrote letters. And every time you circulated that through the country, you would, um, go and see people. Um, yeah. My wife’s, uh, parents lived in War—in Warsaw, Missouri, which, uh, is kind of south and west of Kansas City[, Missouri]—a couple hundred miles out in the country at the head waters of the Lake of the Ozarks in the Missouri countryside—hill towns. And it was amazing how Warsaw became on the way to everything.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Oh [<em>laughs</em>]. Via Warsaw [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Yeah. It didn’t matter where we were going.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>It was always by way of Warsaw…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Missouri. It could have been—it was Washing—Florida to Washington, D.C., is by way of Warsaw, Missouri. Uh…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>] Oh, that’s good.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Seattle to Alabama for Squadron Officer School is by way of Warsaw, of course. That’s not too bad.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>But, uh, everything was by way of Warsaw.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Wow[?]. That’s funny.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>And then…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Does your wife like traveling?</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Did she—yeah. She did.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Oh, I [inaudible].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>She’s now passed, but, uh, yeah.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Oh, I’m sorry.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>She did.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>I didn’t know. Um…</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Yeah.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Well, you’ve had a very interesting life.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Yeah, ‘cause that particular—That first wife died about six years ago, but then she sent along a replacement, who ordered me up off of Match.com as her souvenir of her visit to America—the United States. And, uh, she’s Thai.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Oh, really?</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Well, how is your Thai? [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>My Thai is good enough…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[inaudible] mai tai [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>My Thai—Yeah. I can order one of those. Um…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Mai tai [inaudible] [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>My Thai is probably good enough to tell you “Hello” and “Goodbye.”</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>All of which is the same word: <em>sà-wàt-dee</em>. And to ask, “<em>Hông náam yòo têe năi?</em>” “Where’s the toilet?” in Thai.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>] Good one[?]. Good phrase [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>And I could say thank you: <em>kòp kun mâak</em>. And that’s about it. Uh, fortunately…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[inaudible] If you were in procurement, people must have been saying, “Thank you” to you often.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Oh, they were.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Okay[?]. Were you bribed at any time? Or tempted to be bribed?</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>No. No. Though, uh, some people had trouble with the U.S. standards on that. And in one particular instance in Thailand, uh, the contractors just could not understand when we said, “No. We cannot take anything.” So one Thanksgiving or Christmas or something, they showed up with a lot of turkeys and stuff. “No. we cannot take it.” “But I can’t take it.” “Well, okay.” we gave it to the orphanage.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Oh, that was a good idea.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>But no.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>You must have come across a lot of interesting situations like that. That’s a—that’s…</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>We came across a lot of things that were cultural differences.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Yes, but I mean in the actual process of what you were doing. First of all, you had to find out who to start with to ask for what you needed. And then you had to choose between them.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>You had to choose between—yes. You have to define what you need. You have to find the people that can fill your need. And then you have to make a choice as to which one is going to fill it, and you have to pay attention to a whole long list of social things, as to which person can have this particular contract. Um…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>So you had to do a lot of hard work?</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Yeah. Yeah. Well, this is all goes with part of the job.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>The job. Yeah.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Government procurement and commercial are not the same.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Oh.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>And the big difference is the rules that, uh, the government person has to follow. And people that[sic] I was—when I was teaching at OSI, one of their frequently raised complaints was: “Well, it would be so much cheaper if we did this, or if we did it that way.” And I would have to explain to them that the, um, military procurement regulations, which fill a space like this, were not designed for the efficient and economic acquisition of goods and services for the military. They were designed to fill the social aims of Congress first. And after you fill the social aims of Congress, then we do things to make sure we get stuff.</p>
<p>But we have things like—you have Buy American Act [of 1933]. You have a, um, law that governs the amount of money that must be paid to the contractors on the job, which often is very different than the local prevailing wages. You have to procure from minority-owned businesses. You want to procure from women- owned businesses.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>They did that then? Back that far?</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Oh, yeah. They’ve done this for a long time. And it goes on and on and on. On certain type of business would be set aside, to be filled by only people who meet these social constraints. Whatever they were.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Yeah.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>To fill the social aims of Congress. Um, I [inaudible]…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Tell me what was your biggest disappointment during this time?</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Uh…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Something…</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>I can’t think of one at the moment.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Go wrong after you went half way into it, or something like that?</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Pardon?</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Did anything go wrong after you went half way into it?</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>No. The only interesting thing was I never intended to stay there.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>I intended to do my first tour of duty, and then get out.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Yes.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>But by the time that, uh, point came up, Air Force requirement is four years of service after commissioning. And the point I had four years of service, and I had three little children. And I knew I needed a Master’s Degree, and there wasn’t any way that I was going to be able to support four little children and a wife and go get a Master’s Degree on my own. And the Air Force says, “We will send you to, uh, George Washington University for your MBA [Master’s of Business Administration], if you would like. All you have to accept is an extended service commitment of three times the length of that year and a half of school.” And then every time I did that, or I got promoted, or I got sent somewhere, there was always a service commitment attached to it. It wasn’t until I had 18 years of service in, that I could’ve get out if I wanted to. At that point, I stopped accepting any offers for anything that had a commitment on it.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>I see. That’s understandable. And I think you [inaudible]…</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>But by then, I was at Rock Island Arsenal in Illinois.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>I think—I think you’ve your judgments in order.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Hm.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Because I—I admire what you put first[?].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>But you certainly had an intering—interesting career.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Yeah.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Tell me about something that—funny that happened whence you—when—when you were in one of these places.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Well, alright. Well, uh, the one we were talking about at lunchtime. Military people on active duty, and as a retiree, are entitled to fly space available on military aircraft from one point to another. ‘Course you have last priority.</p>
<p>So we were in Japan, and my wife wanted to go to [South] Korea, which there were frequent flights between Yokota Air Base in Japan and Osan Air Base in Korea. So we went over to Korea, and on the way over we rode on a chartered airliner. And this just like riding in any other airliner, except this one is under charter with the [U.S.] DOD [Department of Defense].</p>
<p>And we went shopping in Seoul[, Gyeonggi-do, South Korea]. She bought all kinds of stuff. We got back down to Osan Air Base with the—almost a pick-up truck full of, um, things that she wanted to take, and found out there was no space available going back to Japan. There were lots of people like us and no space going back. And furthermore, there were no hotel rooms available in this little town outside Osan to spend the night.</p>
<p>So I called up my friend, who was the OSI boss in Osan, because this was shortly after my—my OSI tour, so I still knew the people. And he called around, and he called me back, and says, “Okay. Go down to this hotel,” [<em>clears throat</em>] “and they’ll take care of you and put you up for the night.” We did. And the next morning, I informed her that she had just spent the night in a whorehouse.</p>
<p><strong>All<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>And how…</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>That’s what it was.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>And how did you get back? [inaudible].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>So we went back to the base to wait along with all of these other people, and the, uh, wing at Yokota sent a training flight over to Osan. The Air Force flies training flights all the time. They have to. To train the people. Keep their skills up. So they said, “Okay. Well, we got all these people waiting over there. We’ll send this flight over today to Osan to, uh—to pick these folks up.” And they did, in a [Lockheed] C-130 [Hercules]. The C-130 is a flying truck. You sit in the back end of this, and it’s like sitting in the back end of a big truck, on a canvas seat with very little in the way of heat or any sort of comforts whatsoever. So we all filed in there, put all of our luggage in there in front of us, and then…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>In front of you?</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is a…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>All down the middle of the plane?</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Down the middle. This is the bay of a cargo airplane. This is not an airliner.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Oh.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>You—you’ve seen pictures though</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Yeah.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Now, they’re—they’re…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>In the movies.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>There—they’re about as—about like sitting in the back of a dump truck. Now, you load over the rear of that airplane. That’s how its tailgate goes down. And they can drive tanks, and trucks…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Oh, I’ve seen</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>And things like that. So everybody’s in there. We’re all sitting down, and the loadmaster goes to life the tailgate, and it won’t shut. Can’t get the door of the airplane shut.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>So he takes a piece of wire, wraps it around the door, holds it in place…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Take off to go back to Japan.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>All wired up [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>And my brother-in-law, who is a—at that time, a paratrooper in the Army—uh, standard joke people ask him, “Why would you want to jump out of a perfectly good airplane?” And his answer is “Because the Air Force doesn’t have any.”</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>] Oh, really?</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>This was…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Very interesting.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>A perfectly good airplane by Air Force standards. You could wire the door shut and fly.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Is there anything else you would like to tell us before we end?</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Oh, I guess that’s probably about it.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Well, you’ve been an easy person, because I was supposed to tell you at the beginning, that this is for you to tell your stories, and I’m just…</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Okay[?].</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Just there to ask the questions. But it was, uh—I didn’t have to do that, because you had so many stories, and you told them so well, and it was really interesting, and I’m sure everyone who reads veterans’ stories will like this story.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>If we’ve got time for one more quick[sic] one…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Yes. We do.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>This is a funny one—to me, a funny one. Seattle is bordered on the eastern side of the city by a 20-mile long fresh water lake called Lake Washington. And One particular day, one of my friends up[?] there and I decided to check out some sailboats, because we had a—a sailboat, rather—as the Navy base had sailboats, and do sailing on Lake Washington. And we did. And we promptly knocked the sailboat down.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>And we got it back up, and then we promptly knocked it down again. Now, the big lesson that I learned about doing that was that a can of beer, if it has not been opened, will float.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Because the beer we had, we can’t—that hadn’t been opened yet—all of it just floated every time we knocked the sailboat over, and so we got it back up, and we got out beer back on board.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Oh, really? That’s interesting. Is it because there’s air in the can?</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Sure.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Or because there’s not very much in it? [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>There’s air in the can, and a can of beer is sealed. It can’t get out, and it floats. And I…</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>[inaudible].</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Didn’t know until then that a can of beer will float.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Is there anything else you’d like to tell us…</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /> </strong>No.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>We conclude?</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Now that I’m thinking about it, I could go all afternoon.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Yes[?]. Well, you were the easiest person to interview, I must say. Um, let’s see there was something I wanted to say to you, as well. Well, we—we thank you very much for being part of this program,</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Sure.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>And, um, I certainly enjoyed listening to your story, so I think you’ll be a great contributor. And…</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>I hope so.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>So thank you very much.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>You’re welcome.</p>
<p><strong>Scherer<br /></strong>Good luck.</p>
<p><strong>McGuire<br /></strong>Thank you.</p>
<div><br /><div>
<p><a title="">[1]</a> Correction: Yokota Air Base.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a title="">[2]</a> Officially the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church).</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a title="">[3]</a> September 17, 1945-January 31, 1946.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a title="">[4]</a> Also known as the Republic of the Union of Myanmar.</p>
</div>
</div>
2nd Lieutenant
African Enterprise
AFROTC
Air Force
Air Force Reserve Officers' Training Corps
aircraft
airplanes
Ambassador
AMC
ammunition procurement division
Armed Forces Staff College
Army Materiel Command
Army Military Intelligence Readiness Command
BAA
baht
Bangkok, Thailand
bargains
Baton Rouge, Louisiana
bribery
bribes
business administration
Buy American Act of 1933
C-130
cargo
Chokchai Building
Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-Day Saints
CID
comfort girls
Community Veterans History Project
Congress
conscription
construction
consultants
contract administrators
contracting
contractors
corruption
Criminal Investigator's Department
CVHP
DCAS
declaration of war
Defense Contract Administration Services
deputy directors
DOD
Downtown Bangkok
drafts
Durban, South Africa
engineering
engineers
Fawley, England
Fussa, Japan
George C. McGuire
George Washington University
GWU
hospitals
Judy Scherer
Korea
Lake Washington
LDS Church
legislation
lieutenant colonel
Lockheed C-130 Hercules
McCoy AFB
McCoy Air Force Base
Ministry of Defense
MIRC
Missouri
Mom Rajawongse Seni Pramoj
Mormonism
Mormons
NAS Sand Point
Naval Air Station Sand Point
New Jersey
New York City, New York
New York Harbor
Norfolk, Virginia
Notre Dame, Indiana
OIA
oil
oil refineries
oil refinery
orlando
Orlando AFB
Orlando Air Force Base
Orlando International Airport
Osan AB
Osan Air Base
OSI
planes
President of Thailand
presidents
procurement centers
procurement officers
prostitutes
prostitution
Pyeongtaek-si,South Korea
regulations
Reserve Officers' Training Corps
retirement
Rock Island Arsenal
Rose Marie Scherer
ROTC
sailboats
sailing
scandals
Seattle, Washington
Second Lieutenant
Seni Pramoj
Seni Pramoj, Mom Rajawongse
Seoul, South Korea
sex workers
Single Manager for Conventional Ammunition
Squadron Officer School
Statue of Liberty
Summit, New Jersey
Thai
Thai Ministry of Defense
Thailand
tour of duty
U.S. Air Force
U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations
U.S. ambassador
U.S. Army
U.S. Army Materiel Command
U.S. Army Military Intelligence Readiness Command
U.S. Department of Defense
U.S. Navy
UND
University of Notre Dame
University of Notre Dame du La
USAF
USAFOSI
veterans
Vietnam
Vietnam War
Warsaw, Missouri
Washington, D.C.
Whiteman AFB
Whiteman Air Force Base
World War II
WWII
Yokota AB
Yokota Air Base
-
https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka/files/original/cf54e641fa0d4b54defe352f173e3897.pdf
c11b2eb95128c7178d7e692f93672926
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
World War II Collection
Alternative Title
WWII Collection
Subject
World War II, 1939-1945
Veterans--Florida
Is Part Of
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/24" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project Collection</a>, RICHES of Central Florida.
Language
eng
Type
Collection
Contributing Project
<a href="http://digitalcollections.net.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>
Curator
Cepero, Laura
Digital Collection
<a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a><span>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida</span>
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a>
Description
Although Japan and China were already engaged war since 1937, September 1, 1939 is generally considered the beginning date of World War II. It was on this day that Adolf Hitler (1889-1945), the Führer of Nazi Germany, invaded Poland, inciting France and the United Kingdom to declare war. Through the course of the war, belligerents were general divided into two groups: the Allied Powers, consisting of the United Kingdom, France, the Soviet Union, China, Poland, Canada, Australia, India, Yugoslavia, Greece, the Netherlands, Belgium, South Africa, New Zealand, Norway, Czechoslovakia, Ethiopia, Brazil, Denmark, Luxembourg, Cuba, Mexico, the Philippines, Mongolia, and Iran; and the Axis Powers, consisting of Germany, Japan, Italy, Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria.
The United States did not join the Allies until the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941. War was waged for several years. On May 8, 1945, Germany surrendered to Soviet and Polish troops in response to the capture of Berlin just a few days earlier, in effect ending the war in Europe. The war in the Pacific theater did not end until Japan surrendered on August 15, 1945, in response to the atomic attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
World War II transformed the globe's geopolitical context. The United Nations (UN) was established and the United States and Soviet Union emerged as opposing superpowers, setting the stage for the 46-year long Cold War. Much of Europe was left in economic collapse and decolonization began in Asia and Africa.
Contributor
<a href="http://library.ucf.edu/about/departments/special-collections-university-archives/" target="_blank">Special Collections and University Archives</a><span>, University of Central Florida Libraries, University of Central Florida</span>
Source Repository
<a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a><span>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida</span>
External Reference
<span>"</span><a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">About the Project</a><span>." UCF Community Veterans History Project, RICHES of Central Florida, University of Central Florida. http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/.</span>
Black, Jeremy. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/51306184" target="_blank"><em>World War Two: A Military History</em></a>. London: Routledge, 2003.
Maddox, Robert James. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/24066126" target="_blank"><em>The United States and World War II</em></a>. Boulder: Westview Press, 1992.
Davies, Norman, and Norman Davies. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/104891528" target="_blank"><em>No Simple Victory: World War II in Europe, 1939-1945</em></a>. New York: Viking, 2007
Zeiler, Thomas W. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/51905775" target="_blank"><em>Unconditional Defeat: Japan, America, and the End of World War II</em></a>. Wilmington, Del: Scholarly Resources, 2004.
Ferguson, Niall. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/70839824" target="_blank"><em>The War of the World: Twentieth-Century Conflict and the Descent of the West</em></a>. New York: Penguin Press, 2006.
Reynolds, David. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/646790595" target="_blank"><em>From World War to Cold War Churchill, Roosevelt, and the International History of the 1940s</em></a>. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2006.
Coverage
Naval Training Center, Orlando, Florida
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
Oral History of Frank V. Boffi
Alternative Title
Oral History, Boffi
Subject
Veterans--Florida
World War II
Description
An oral history interview of Frank V. Boffi (b. 1922), who served in the U.S. Navy from 1942 to 1945 and again from 1948 to 1952. Boffi was born in Cranston, Rhode Island, on May 18, 1922. He served during both World War II and the Korean War, and was stationed on USS <em>Bernadou</em>, USS <em>Hugh W. Hadley</em>, USS <em>Brownson</em>n, and USS <em>Fiske</em>. Boffi also took part in the Allied Invasion of Sicily, the Battle of Anzio, and the Battle of Okinawa. He received a Purple Heart, among other awards, and achieved the rank of 1st Class Machinist. This interview was conducted by Luis Santana Garcia at the University of Central Florida in Orlando, Florida. Topics discussed in the oral history include Boffi's background, his enlistment, fighting in Italy, the construction of the USS <em>Hugh W. Hadley</em> and its subsequent destruction, serving in the Pacific Theater, leaving the Navy, his medals and citations, and the Lone Sailor Memorial Project.
Table Of Contents
0:00:00 Introduction<br />0:00:30 Background and family<br />0:02:00 Entry into service<br />0:08:30 First days of service<br />0:12:37 Invading Italy as an American of Italian heritage<br />0:14:30 Experience during the battles in Italy<br />0:19:30 USS <em>Hugh W. Hadley</em> construction, training, and the Pacific Theater<br />0:23:23 Typical day and recreational activities<br />0:25:30 Life after service<br />0:27:50 Medals, citations, and values learned<br />0:29:42 VIDEO SKIPS<br />0:30:00 Future of the Lone Sailor Memorial Project<br />0:31:43 Closing remarks
Abstract
Oral history interview of Frank V. Boffi. Interview conducted by Luis Santana Garcia.
Type
Moving Image
Source
Boffi, Frank V. Interviewed by Luis Santana Garcia. Audio/video record available. <a href="http://digitalcollections.net.ucf.edu/cdm/ref/collection/VET/id/267" target="_blank">Item DP0014888</a>, <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, Orlando, Florida.
Requires
<a href="http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/" target="_blank"> Adobe Flash Player</a>
<a href="http://java.com/en/download/index.jsp" target="_blank"> Java</a>
Is Part Of
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, Orlando, Florida.
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/95" target="_blank">World War II Collection</a>, UCF Community Veterans History Project Collection, RICHES of Central Florida.
Has Format
Boffi, Frank V. Interviewed by Luis Santana Garcia. Audio/video record available. <a href="http://digitalcollections.net.ucf.edu/cdm/ref/collection/VET/id/267" target="_blank">Item DP0014888</a>, <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, Orlando, Florida.
Digital transcript of original 32-minute and 25-second oral history: Boffi, Frank V. Interviewed by Luis Santana Garcia. Audio/video record available. <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, Orlando, Florida.
Conforms To
Standards established by the <a href="http://www.loc.gov/vets/" target="_blank">Veterans History Projects</a>, Library of Congress.
Coverage
Cranston, Rhode Island
Downtown Providence, Rhode Island
Newport, Rhode Island
Boston, Massachusetts
Naval Training Center, Orlando, Florida
Sicily, Salerno, Italy
Anzio Beach, Italy
Oran, Algeria
Tinian, Northern Mariana Islands
Okinawa, Japan
Vatican Necropolis, Vatican, Vatican City
Creator
Boffi, Frank V.
Garcia, Luis Santana
Publisher
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>
Contributor
Barnes, Mark
Date Created
2014-02-26
Date Copyrighted
2014-02-26
Format
application/website
application/pdf
Extent
12.1 MB
188 KB
Medium
32-minute and 25-second Hi8 CD/DVD
15-page digital transcript
Language
eng
Mediator
History Teacher
Civics/Government Teacher
Geography Teacher
Provenance
Originally created by Luis Santana Garcia and Frank V. Boffi and published by <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>.
Rights Holder
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>
Accrual Method
Item Creation
Contributing Project
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>
Curator
Cepero, Laura
Digital Collection
<a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a>
Source Repository
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>
External Reference
Black, Jeremy. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/51306184" target="_blank"><em>World War Two: A Military History</em></a>. London: Routledge, 2003.
Maddox, Robert James. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/24066126" target="_blank"><em>The United States and World War II</em></a>. Boulder: Westview Press, 1992.
Davies, Norman, and Norman Davies. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/104891528" target="_blank"><em>No Simple Victory: World War II in Europe, 1939-1945</em></a>. New York: Viking, 2007.
Zeiler, Thomas W. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/51905775" target="_blank"><em>Unconditional Defeat: Japan, America, and the End of World War II</em></a>. Wilmington, Del: Scholarly Resources, 2004.
Ferguson, Niall. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/70839824" target="_blank"><em>The War of the World: Twentieth-Century Conflict and the Descent of the West</em></a>. New York: Penguin Press, 2006.
Reynolds, David. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/646790595" target="_blank"><em>From World War to Cold War Churchill, Roosevelt, and the International History of the 1940s</em></a>. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2006.
Click to View (Movie, Podcast, or Website)
<a href="http://stars.library.ucf.edu/veteransoralhistories/214/" target="_blank">Boffi, Frank V.</a>
Transcript
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>Today is February 26<sup>th</sup>, 2014. I am interviewing Frank Boffi, who served in the United States Navy. He served in World War II and ended with a rank of Machinist MAT 1<sup>st</sup> class. With me is Mark...</p>
<p><strong>Barnes<br /></strong>Mark Barnes.</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>Mark Barnes. We are interviewing Mr. Boffi as part of the University of Central Florida Community Veterans History Project and as research for the creation of a Lone Sailor Memorial Project. We are recording this interview at UCF in Orlando, Florida. Mr. Boffi, will you please start by—start us off by telling us when and where you were born?</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>Cranston, Rhode Island, which is about nine miles north of, uh Downtown Providence[, Rhode Island]. I was born May 18<sup>th</sup>, 1922, and I’m the, uh, youngest of seven boys. We were a family of 10 children. Raised during the Great Depression which is—was hell on life—on Earth, really. So we had to get adjusted to that— not having anything.</p>
<p>I’ve been lecturing five high schools here locally about World War II and the kids don’t believe that, during the Depression, we had no allowance, we had nothing, and, uh—but anyway, I survived the Depression. I survived three battles in the Pacif—the, uh, Mediterranean [Sea], and the one battle in the Pacific [Theater]. So I consider myself a survivor.</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>What did your parents do for a living?</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>They were, uh, country folks. My dad worked—was a laborer, because in Italy they lived out on farms, and came over here had really no skills. and, um, he worked for—under the WPA systems, which was the Works Progress Administration—back in the [19]30s, uh, one of the programs set by President [Franklin Delano] Roosevelt. So he was just a, uh, shovel—a reg[?] guy. He was working on the roads and the parks and stuff that the city was rocking[?] for him. That sort of thing.</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>And when did you, uh, enter the Navy?</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>I, uh, entered—first of all, I think it’s important to hear that we<a title="">[1]</a> got engaged December 6<sup>th</sup>, 1941, which was the night before the Pearl Harbor attack. And, um, it’s so strange: these high schools that I’ve been lecturing—that’s the one thing those kids remember when I go back the next year after that. Yeah. I ask what they remember about World War II and they all say the same thing, “You and your wife got engaged the night before Pearl Harbor.”</p>
<p>We got—I got married at, uh, 20 years old—August 1<sup>st</sup>, 1942. And on September 15<sup>th</sup>, 1942, I went down and enlisted in the Navy, because I did not want to be drafted into the Army. I was told that the Navy, you had three square a day and clean bedding, as long as you washed it. But the Army guys had to sleep in mud and foxholes and I didn’t want that kind of stuff.</p>
<p>But, um, yeah. We were—I—my wife and I were married 71 years this past August 1<sup>st</sup>, and then she died October 7<sup>th</sup>, [inaudible] 2014. But, uh, it was a tough life, but we hacked it through[?]. It was just two young kids. She was 22 and I was 20, but we made it and it was a real sacrifice. We only had the one son who has—now has two children and six great, uh—six grandchildren. I have six great-grandchildren.</p>
<p>My son is a graduate of the University of Nebraska, where he has a master’s [degree] out of the university. Um, He started in engineering, but he changed it over to psychology. And I asked him why he changed his major[?] over the subject—his degree in, and he said one of his friends dove out of the six—I think he said it was a six-story window. And He was on LSD [lysergic acid diethylamide] and he just dove out the window. And that was when my son decided to change his career and help the kids that were—that were on drugs. He was—he wound up being an administrator of six counties in east Nebraska—in charge of the drug program. But Now he’s a—he was a regional manager for Xerox [Corporation], and they moved him to Washington, D.C. area. And now he’s, uh—has his own business—he and his wife—as general resources. Um, he’s chief operating officer for AmeriCom. It’s a company that deals with the government, and their biggest account is the Air Force. And he is in, uh, San Antonio[, Texas] about every four or five weeks, because we have bases there. What else you want?</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>Now, uh, you said you were—got engaged the day before Pearl Harbor. What was your reaction to the attack on Pearl Harbor?</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>It was kind of a shock, but We, uh, I think we were prepared for it. The—the way things were going, we knew that some war was going to come out of it. It was so strange: in Downtown Providence—I’m not sure if you’re familiar with it—they had docks there. And, uh, my buddy and I—we used to go down there. we used to walk to Providence maybe two days a week, and there were all these old rust buckets loading up with all the, um, scrap iron, and we sold millions and millions of tons of scrap iron to Japan. And then—then four or five months, the war broke out, they were firing it right back at us.</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>Why did you join the Navy?</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>Like I told you, I didn’t like—I didn’t like being in a foxhole, and I didn’t want to join the Army. I had one brother in the Army and two—the one in the Navy, he joined long after I did. But, uh, my other two brothers were [Boeing] B17 [Flying Fortress] bombers.</p>
<p>And, uh, I—I just liked the water. I thought I would be better off in the Navy. Might as well do something I like, than[?] rather[?]—I had to go no matter what. I didn’t want to be drafted in the Army.</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>Where did you attend boot camp?</p>
<p><strong>Boffi <br /> </strong>I, uh, went to boot camp in Newport, Rhode Island. I reported there October 15<sup>th</sup>, 1942 and got in out March 1943. And they sent me to [inaudible] Institute in Boston[, Massachusetts], which is an engineering school. And I came out of there with a, uh—with a second class machinist MAT training.</p>
<p>It was so strange that, in those days, uh—that—that the commander of the school posted a notice one day saying anybody in the top five percentile for academics would be allowed the privilege of applying for Officer’s[sic] Candidate School. So I applied for it, and that’s all it says. And I walked up, and commander Cavinar[sp] was sitting at his desk, and I came in the door about that distance away, and he kind of looked up and says, “Frank, you don’t qualify.” I said, “But I’m in the top three percentile academically.” He said, “Yeah. Academically you can qualify, but you’re married.” They would not give you a rate[?] then—a commission [inaudible]. You had to be married first though—no. You—you couldn’t get married until after you got your commission. that’s what it was. So they refused to give me a commission.</p>
<p>And, uh, then later on when I worked[?] the ship got sunk, I was supposed to make chief June 1<sup>st</sup>, 1945. And we got sunk on the 11<sup>th</sup> of May of 1945. That’s when I wound up in a hospital bed for the next four and a half months. So they wouldn’t give me the chief’s rating, because you had to be with an active unit.</p>
<p>Now, today even, if you lost both legs, you’re still in the military, you get your rating or whatever. So, um, when they held its 90<sup>th</sup> birthday, the chiefs down here at NAWC [Naval Air Warfare Center] made me an honorary, um, chief with them. So I have a [U.S.] DOD [Department of Defense] certificate stating that I’m part of the chiefs’ at NAWCTSD in Orlando. They—they kind of glorified it and they gave me the rate. I asked them about it—OCS [Officer Candidate School] now, but they wouldn’t allow me [<em>clears throat</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>What was, uh, your first days of your service like?</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>Pardon?</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>What was the first day of your service like? First days.</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>Well, the—the first couple of days were interesting, because we had some boys from the Midwest area[?] they were Arkansans. We had to sleep on hammocks. In those days, in boot camp. And the hammock was strung up to the ceiling and you had what you called the” jack stand.” That’s a bar, and you would jump up and grab it and you’d pull your body up. And if you knew how to do it, you would open your hammock line with one leg and then pop your butt in and then—otherwise, you would just roll off the other side. and that’s what was happening to this one boy from Arkansas. He couldn’t—he’d get in one side and roll out the other one. He couldn’t get himself—so one night, the chief told a couple of us to “Go help that kid get in that hammock.” And, Uh, We raised the sides up, but in the morning he tried to get out and he’d fall out all the time. He was a character. He never did adjust to a hammock. We kept our hammocks as part of our sea bag. And I’ve used it two or three times at sea out here in the Atlantic [Ocean]. When we had a hurricane or real bad weather, the ship would go rocking and rolling too much. My buddy and I would go out and string up our hammock underneath the gun tug, where it would be dry, and sleep in the hammocks. We just—like a baby rocking in a crib.</p>
<p>But, um, yeah. The first ship was on was a 1918—it was commissioned in 1918—a World War I destroyer. It was an old four stacker, and we called them “rust buckets.” But Then [<em>clears throat</em>]—and we made the three invasions of, um, [inaudible] Sicily, Salerno, Italy, and, um—what was the last one? One of the—one—I forget the name of that one. Oh, [inaudible]. My memory is failing me, but we made the two—three invasions in Sa—Sicily, Anzio Beach, Salerno—Anzio Beach. That’s what it is. Anzio Beach, Salerno, and, um, you know, Sicily.</p>
<p>We operated out of Oran[, Algeria], North Africa. That was kind of a[sic], uh, interesting—now that we have so much Muslim, uh, religion spreading out all over the world. There was a place in Oran that was called Medina. It was a, uh, sacred city with great big columns and you were not allowed in there unless you were a, um, Muslim religion[sic]. And my buddy and I didn’t believe it, so we started in there one day, and we get about three feet through the gates, all these Arabs started getting up from sitting on the sidewalk. And, um, we were lucky. I think I—I’m alive today, because the shore patrol was right there. They drive their Jeep in about three feet into the Medina, and told us to get in and they brought us back [inaudible].</p>
<p>And they told us that one of my friends, uh, Bill Suey[sp], came from Cranston, Rhode Island—.he and I went through school together. He went through Medina one night and came back in just his underwear—just his skivvies. He was lucky he got his life, but they took everything he had—his uniform, cigarettes, and—and they stripped him. They didn’t want us there. Basically, that’s what it was. We were invading their country and—and they—they didn’t realize that we were there protecting them from the Germans. I mean, they were losing their country to the Germans till we got there. And, um, so we saved them, but they’re still Muslim and that scares me till today—what’s happening in some of these cities. [<em>clears throat</em>] It’s a damn shame that we have to go through stuff, but I see it happening right now.</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>Now, uh, as an Italian [American], how did it feel invading Italy?</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>How did I feel being in Italy?</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>Yeah.</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>It was, uh, a good feeling. Because I was—my mom and my eldest brother came over in 1904. And this was 19—well, I didn’t get there until during the war, but I stayed in the Navy and I went back in 1950 with the ship I was on. And I got to meet my, uh, dad’s two brothers, and my cousins, and my mom’s half-sister.</p>
<p>And her—this one half-sister has three—three daughters. And they came to my uncle’s house and the eldest—eldest daughter was, um, just—just under 18. She was a senior in—in high school—equivalent to our schedule setup. And, um, she was so excited that I was talking to an Italian in English and all that. And she kept patting my knee, and the moms kept telling them, “Don’t touch him. he’s an American sailor.” She said, “But he’s my cousin.” She said, “I don’t care if he’s your brother. Don’t lo—don’t touch him. He’s an American sailor.” But that was the kind of reputation we had all over the world. The—the sailors were people [<em>coughs</em>] [<em>clears throat</em>].</p>
<p>And I had one other cousin, who had a close friend of his who was a [Papal] Swiss Guard in the Vatican. So I got to, uh, go places in the Vatican that the general public had never been to. And we got way down deep into the catacombs,<a title="">[2]</a> where they used to bury all the priests and the bishops and whatever. There—it was kind of an eerie feeling being down there with all these caskets on both sides. And these guys didn’t realize that they’ve been buried there for a hundred years or longer. That was something that the general public never saw, but I got to see it because of my cousin’s—Tom’s—friend was a Swiss Guard. He allowed me to go down there [<em>clears throat</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>Now what—what was…</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>[<em>clears throat</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>What your experience during the actual battles?</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>What was what?</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>What your experience during the actual battles themselves?</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>Well, um, uh, the, uh—at the Anzio Beach location, I was on deck and that was a, uh, a 50 millimeter—50 caliber machine gun. And that really was the only action I’ve ever—I’ve ever seen. Because, um, normally, I would be engine room. You would not see any action. And, uh, It’s so strange that now I—you know, there were three destroyers in our squadron. We were all—we were all World War I destroyers. And they, uh, used us as decoys. The American government had no, um, um, information as to where the gun emplacements were. So they—the three destroyers were supposed to go in, approach the beach with all their lights out [inaudible]. And at midnight, put on our search light. We had a great big, regular search light they use at airports. And, uh, there was total darkness. I couldn’t see you guys as dark as it was. And all of a sudden, at midnight, when we put our search lights on, all hell—the beach just broke all out, and I jumped.</p>
<p>And I found out later that that was a trigger, because I was subject to that for a long, long time. I mean, if we walked—if I walked in this room and someone tried to put the—somebody put the light on, I would react to it. And Now I—I found out that eventually, training with the VA [Veterans Administration] and, um—my son, um, met the woman who was the CO of the Purple Heart Association.<a title="">[3]</a> And she sent me a book, and then I read that—<em>Tears of a Warrior</em>[<em>: A Family's Story of Combat and Living with PTSD</em>] it’s called. I found out that that was only a “trigger,” that they called them. And so I finally got myself to overcome that, and it doesn’t bother me anymore now, but Going into this totally dark room and somebody put the light on. But—and I do it every night when I go home. It’s be totally dark in the house and I flip my own light on, but I don’t react to it anymore like I used to. ‘Cause I suddenly realized that it was just something that was back here and I had to weed it out of my system.</p>
<p>But, uh, normally, I saw no action on my—the—on the [USS <em>Hugh W.</em>] <em>Hadley</em>. I didn’t see any action, until we got, uh, blown out of the engine room—came topside. And to this day, I don’t remember seeing any action then. And I found out from Captain [Doug] Aiken, who’s retired—he was a lieutenant on the <em>Hadley</em>. I asked him how long we were—were in the water, and he said about two and a half hours before we were picked up. And I’ve got—if you want me to email you, I’ve got the picture of that, uh—the ship picking up the survivors and I’ve got the DVD that I can send you and incorporate it with part[?] of yours. It shows a Kamikaze hitting the water and showed the—the bomb going off—something like that. I can get you a copy of those if you—if you wish. They’re not copyrighted at all, so you’re welcome to do with it what—whatever you want with ‘em [<em>clears throat</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>And so you—you said you were—you were sent in as a decoy. Once—once, like, you complete your mission, did they figure out where the emplacements were and then did you guys leave after that?</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>Well, we didn’t really leave the battle area. We went out on, uh, screening. They called it “screening.” You had two or three destroyers. Well, that day, there were like 15 destroyers out there. And just—you stayed off the beach about three or four miles and tried to shoot down the planes that were coming in to attack our troops. And they were coming in to hit our supply ships [inaudible]. So we were on—on the screening most of the time, at the—Of course, I wasn’t there, but the ship was. I was in the hospital. That was—let’s see—May, June—two and a half months in the, uh, ten city hospital. We called it “ten city” in Tinian Island, which is part of the Marianas.<a title="">[4]</a></p>
<p>And, uh, In July of ’45, they sent me to a naval receiving hospital in San Francisco, California. stayed there a couple of weeks, and from there, they sent me to a psychiatric hospital up in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho, because I was getting a severe—I mean, real bad headaches. It was the back of my head and they thought I was going crazy, I guess. It was just blast concussion. It finally settled down. And after about six—I think six or eight weeks in Coeur d’Alene, I was transferred on down to Sun Valley, Idaho, in which there was a naval recuperation hospital. And then, in October of ’45, they transferred me to Fort Lewis, Washington. And, um, from there, to Boston to be discharged in November of 1945 [<em>clears throat</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>Alright. And, um,what—when, uh—you said that you were on, um—what was the name of the first ship you were on?</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>The USS <em>Bernadou</em>, B-E-R-N-A-D-O-U.</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>And, um, how did you, like—and then you transferred to the <em>Hadley</em>?</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>No. They sent me to school for—the <em>Hadley</em> was so called “new construction.” It was a, uh, bigger class destroyer, and it was higher pressure. We operated at 600 pounds of pressure steam on the <em>Hadley</em>, and the <em>Bernadou</em> was only 250. So I went to North Virginia to school for 12 weeks.</p>
<p>And then I went out to, um, San Pedro, California, and I was part of the 14 people that was the skeleton crew to watch the ship being built. That was quite interesting. And, you know, we saw them lay the keel hull in the dry dock. And we—we had to be in the dry dock every morning at eight o’ clock. That’s where they held quarters. And we literally watched the ship being built. Every—every bit of welding they did, we were there. There were 14 of us: one officer, and, uh, I think two chiefs, myself, another 1<sup>st</sup> class in engineering, and there, um—some other guys from other rates I don’t know—the yeoman[?] and [inaudible]. But, um—so I was on it when it went into the water in October of 1945—I mean ’44 — and we were sunk May of 1945. so it didn’t last very long.</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>That was…</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>[<em>clears throat</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>That was during the Invasion of Okinawa[, Japan]?<a title="">[5]</a></p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>Yes.</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>And what—what was your experience in that battle?</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>My experience? Well, I didn’t see any action, because I was down in the engine room all the time.</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>When you were in the engine room, what—like, what was your job, per se?</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>Well, to keep the ship moving. We had to keep the engines running, and, um— because if you lose your engines, then you are a dead, still target. Then they just blow you out of the water. So, uh—as a matter of fact, Marc [Ennis] is in simulation, and we had no simulators in those days. And I was—I had my pump man and my messenger blindfolded when they were on the lower level, where all the pumps are. And they had the second level was the operating deck—the control deck.</p>
<p>And I had them blindfolded, and the Chief Engineer comes down and he says, “Boffi, we don’t have any time for this blind man’s bluff games and stuff like that.” I said, “We’re not playing games, sir. I’m teaching these guys to know the engine room blindfolded.” That’s the first thing you lose on any situation is power. I mean, right now, if the power went off, we would be in a darkened room. So I said,” I’m trying teach them how to get out of there—this engine room.” And to this day, I think we all come[?]—[Don] Hackler, my master, was the last one to leave the engine room. We seemed to think he slipped down the ladder. he didn’t make it. Speedo, my bunkman, and myself got out. And that was the— Speedo got out first, and then I was second, and Hackler was—and he was only 17 years old. He had been in the Navy like 81 days. At the end of the war, they were taking real young kids in, with hardly any training at all. And, uh, Don Hackler—I think it was his name—and he was the only one that didn’t survive the—in that engine room. We lost, uh, everybody in the forward fire room, plus there were other people on deck. I think there were about 18 casualties that—fatalities that morning of the attack [<em>clears throat</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>Uh,Going back a little bit, what—what was…</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>[<em>coughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>Saily life like on the Navy vessel?</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>A normal day?</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>Mmhmm.</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>Normally, you get up at about five—normally, you get up about 5:30 for regular crew. But in engineering, you’re—you’re on four hours and off eight. So we would be getting up at like 3:15 in the morning for the four to eight watch. And, uh, for the midnight watch, you got on—you had to be up by quarter to 12, and that ran to—to quarter to four, and that ran to quarter to eight. And, um, once you got in the engine room though, there was no—I didn’t do much. I just sat there, che—checked the other guys, and did some checking of equipment, and stuff like that. But—mostly management. I didn’t really do anything. There was nothing you could do. Just be ready to—if you did take a hit, be ready, you know, do—to you could react. Do what you had to do.</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>And you told us about…</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>[<em>coughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>Some of the, uh, recreational things you did while you were in Italy and Africa. Were there anything in the Pacific—any areas In the Pacific that you got to experience in the Pacific?</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>No. I never got off the ship. We never had any liberty and such. So I know noth—nothing about the Pacific Ocean, other—other than being aboard a ship. We did hit Pearl Harbor[, Hawaii] before—on the way up there—that area. We had about three days in Pearl Harbor. and that was my only experience in Hawaii for a long time. But, uh, you know, you pull into a Navy base and you really have nothing to do. most of them are kind of isolated away from the normal public. We didn’t have the, uh—the glory of—the liberty, so to speak. We got four hours off. Didn’t have enough time to run into town, grab a couple of beers, hopefully get lucky and get a woman, and back to the ship [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>]. And, um…</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>[<em>coughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>What—What was it like when you left the Navy—like, coming home?</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>Well, I—I went to work for the power company. I—I wanted to—see, I used to work in jewelry—jewelry manufacturing, when I was in high school. After I got out of high school, and I told my wife—said, “I’m—I’m going to go into something that was going to be a career, like…” So I—I went to the power company, and after I got into trouble with that union, they run me off.</p>
<p>So I got an insurance job as an engineer. And I inspected elevators and boilers, held safety meetings. Then I, um—April 1<sup>st</sup>, 1970, when the OSHA [Occupational Safety and Health Act] law came into being, it was signed by the President<a title="">[6]</a> as the—a law of the land. And I went to, uh, what is now the University of Southern Florida<a title="">[7]</a> and took a two day exam—two eight hour exams—for, uh, my—they call it Certi—CSP—Certified Safety Professional. And, um, I passed that, so they gave me the designation. That’s what I was when I retired—a Certified Safety Professional.</p>
<p>When I was, uh, working for the insurance company, I—I did the service for a lot of power utilities and inspected elevators in a lot of buildings. My territory included Puerto Rico, the [U.S.] Virgin Islands, and [the] Bahamas. It was a tough territory to—to take care of. And, Uh, Every other month, my wife would go with me and go on the beach, where we would get the hotel in San Juan[, Puerto Rico]. I’d go do my job, and then we would fly over to Saint Thomas[, U.S. Virgin Islands] and Saint Croix[, U.S. Virgin Islands]. I—I really enjoyed it. I—I—I did 50 years in the insurance industry. The, um—I retired March 1<sup>st</sup> of ’84, and then I re—they called me back. And then I retired again in—in 2001, I think it was. In 2006, they forced me to retire. They said I was too old at 84 years old to be inspecting boilers and elevators and all that kind of stuff, so I finally decided [inaudible].</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>And, Um, Were you awarded any medals or citations? [inaudible]…</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>I have a Purple Heart for my injuries, and I’ve got, uh, three battle stars for the Mediterranean, three warzones, and three battles. And I’ve got, um, one battle for the, uh, Pacific. Other than that, uh, no high rating. Um, medals or anything.</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>Um,What values or characteristics of the Navy do you believe made an impression on—on your life?</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>I think the camaraderie. There’s something about the Navy that the Army and the Marines never had. Uh, Like Mark, anybody would do anything for anyone else, if they were Navy. And I’m not sure that was true in the Army or the Marine Corps. My son became a Marine. He was in, uh, six years during the Vietnam [War] era. And, uh, I didn’t notice the camaraderie with them as I did in the Navy. And to this day, like I said, I go to NAWC every single day. They say I’m there more than people who get paid to be there. They don’t even show up and I’m there every morning.</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>And What was the most valuable lesson that you learned during your time?</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>I’m sorry?</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>What was the most valuable lesson you learned during your time in the Navy?</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>Well, I think that you treat everybody that you would want to be treated, for one thing. The only thing that used to really bother me and still does to this day is these ethnic groups that come [inaudible]—the— immigrants—they come over here and they want us to change to be whatever they are, you know? The Hispanics or Chinese or—I mean, when you come over here, be an American. I can still hear my dad when I was a youngster, he kept saying this great…</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>And he, uh—to this day, I have arguments with some of these people. I am not an Italian. I’m of Italian heritage, but I was born in this country and I’m an American. I fought in several wars—battles—for the Americans. And I’d—I’d do it again if I had to, if that were necessary [<em>clears throat</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>And What do you think former Navy personnel would like to see or be reminded of when they visit—revisit the site of the base<a title="">[8]</a> and the Lone Sailor Project Memorial?</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>What do I think of the—I think it’s going to bring back a lot of memories of a lot of people. I—I just—befriended—well, ,I’ve been friends with him for about a year and a half at the Moose Club. I didn’t know he was a photographer in the Army. And then, when he go out of the Army, he took all the photographs to the Navy base, where Mark graduated from, and he took all the shots over the Cape [Canaveral]. He went for the Cape. So, uh, that was kind of interesting.</p>
<p>He’s telling—he was telling Mark and myself about, um, incidents that had happened there before. And, uh, he’s going to be one of our guests at the next Navy League luncheon, I think. He can tell us some of the things that are interesting. Me[sic] and Mark were talking about those days.</p>
<p>I had no idea that there was a boot camp here. I lived up in, um, Miami since ’66, and never had an idea that there was a boot camp in Florida. So That was kind of a shock to me that I got up here and found out there was a boot camp there. I probably would have come up every weekend and go there and visit. I—I would have befriended—I would have taken the, uh, transfer—my company travels insurance wanted transferred me up here in, uh, ’69, I think it was. and I refused it. I wanted to stay around the Miami area, but, uh, if I would have known there was a boot camp up there in the Navy, um, influence, I think I would have—would have transferred.</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>Is there anything else you would like to share about your Navy experience?</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>It’s really helped me a lot, both psychologically and physically. I see they treat people here at NAWC. They really respect me. They show me a lot of respect. They all treat me as though I’m family. Officers, business people, and whatever. I’m just part of their big family and I enjoy it. That’s why I go every day.</p>
<p><strong>Garcia<br /></strong>Thank you, Mr. Boffi.</p>
<p><strong>Boffi<br /></strong>Thank you very much, and good luck in your ventures.</p>
<div><br /><div>
<p><a title="">[1]</a> Boffi and his wife.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a title="">[2]</a> Vatican Necropolis.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a title="">[3]</a> Correction: Purple Heart Foundation.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a title="">[4]</a> Northern Mariana Islands.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a title="">[5]</a> Battle of Okinawa, codenamed Operation Iceberg.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a title="">[6]</a> Richard Milhous Nixon.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a title="">[7]</a> Correction: University of South Florida.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a title="">[8]</a> Naval Training Center (NTC) Orlando.</p>
</div>
</div>
Allied Invasion of Sicily
Anzio Beach, Italy
Arabs
Attack of Pearl Harbor
Battle of Anzio
Battle of Okinawa
battle stars
Bill Suey
boot camps
Boston, Massachusetts
camaraderie
catacombs
Cavinar
Certified Safety Professional
Coeur d'Alene, Idaho
construction
Cranston, Rhode Island
CSP
decoys
destroyers
Don Hackler
Doug Aiken
drafts
engineering
engineers
FDR
Fort Lewis
Frank V. Boffi
Franklin D. Roosevelt
Franklin Delano Rooosevelt
Frontline of Anzio and Nettuno
Great Depression
hammocks
health care
hospitals
immigrants
immigration
insurance
Islam
Italian Americans
Italian Campaign
Italy
jack stands
Kamikazes
Lone Sailor Memorial Project
Luis Santana Garcia
machinists
Marc Ennis
Mark Barnes
Mediterranean Seas
mental health
Moose Club
Muslims
Naval Air Warfare Center
Naval Air Warfare Center Training Systems Division
Naval Training Center Orlando
Navy League
NAWC
NAWCTSD
New Deal
Newport, Rhode Island
North Africa
NTC Orlando
Occupational Safety and Health Act
OCS
Officer Candidate School
Okinawa, Japan
Operation Husky
Operation Iceberg
Operation Shingle
Oran, Algeria
orlando
OSHA
Pacific Theater
Purple Heart Foundation
Purple Hearts
retirement
San Francisco, California
San Pedro, California
screening
skeleton crews
Speedo
Sun Valley, Idaho
Tears of a Warrior: A Family's Story of Combat and Living with PTSD
Tinian, Northern Mariana Islands
training
Trigger
U.S. Navy
UCF
UCF Community Veterans History Project
UCF CVHP
University of Central Florida
University of South Florida
USF
USS Bernadou
USS Brownson
USS Fiske
USS Hugh W. Hadley
VA
Vatican
Vatican City
Vatican Necropolis
veterans
Veterans Administration
wars
Works Progress Administration
World War II
WPA
WWII
-
https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka/files/original/fec9b77921e0994cce5dab2f6ab481bc.mp3
79c9c935661a1087d3454d4d4b43b337
https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka/files/original/44775ef5866d17ab7d73a7196eb445c7.pdf
dfd59d2b2064be8b457d5917c8fff8b3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
Linda McKnight Batman Oral History Project Collection
Alternative Title
Linda McKnight Batman Collection
Subject
Ocala (Fla.)
Orlando (Fla.)
Oviedo (Fla.)
Port Tampa (Fla.)
Sanford (Fla.)
Silver Springs (Fla.)
Titusville (Fla.)
Zellwood (Fla.)
Description
Collection of oral histories depicting the history of Seminole County, Florida. The project was funded by Linda McKnight Batman, a former teacher, historian, and Vice President of the State of Florida Commission on Ethics.
Language
eng
Type
Collection
Curator
Cepero, Laura
Digital Collection
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a>
Source Repository
<a href="http://www.seminolecountyfl.gov/departments-services/leisure-services/parks-recreation/museum-of-seminole-county-history/" target="_blank">Museum of Seminole County History</a>
External Reference
<span>Museum of Seminole County History, and University of Central Florida. </span><a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/744676869" target="_blank"><em>Researcher's Guide to Seminole County Oral Histories: Linda McKnight Batman Oral History Project</em></a><span>. [Sanford, Fla.]: Museum of Seminole County History, 2010.</span>
Contributor
<a href="http://www.seminolecountyfl.gov/departments-services/leisure-services/parks-recreation/museum-of-seminole-county-history/" target="_blank">Museum of Seminole County History</a>
Coverage
Seminole County, Florida
Ocala, Florida
Oviedo, Florida
Port Tampa, Florida
Sanford, Florida
Silver Springs, Florida
Titusville, Florida
Zellwood, Florida
Contributing Project
Linda McKnight Batman Oral History Project
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
Morris, Joseph
Interviewee
Cook, Arthurene Wilson
Location
<a href="http://www.seminolecountyfl.gov/departments-services/leisure-services/parks-recreation/museum-of-seminole-county-history/" target="_blank">Museum of Seminole County History</a><span>, Sanford, Florida</span>
Bit Rate/Frequency
1411kbps
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
Oral History of Arthurene Wilson Cook
Alternative Title
Oral History, Cook
Subject
Sanford (Fla.)
World War II--United States
Great Depression, 1929
Railroads--Florida
Description
An oral history of Arthurene Wilson Cook (b. 1930), conducted by Joseph Morris on October 4, 2011. Cook was born in Orlando, Florida, in 1930, but migrated to Sanford around 1942. In the interview, Cook discusses life in Sanford, her employment experiences, her husbands and children, growing up during the Great Depression, prosperity in the post-World War II era, her husband's career in the railroad industry, her children and grandchildren, and her battle with cancer.
Table Of Contents
0:00:00 Introduction
0:04:15 Working at the Wilson-Maier Furniture Company
0:07:21 RECORDING CUTS OFF
0:07:22 Working at the Wilson-Maier Furniture Company
0:07:48 Working at Florida Fashions and the Family Loan Company
0:07:48 Getting married, divorced, and remarried
0:12:32 Life in Sanford
0:14:11 Growing up during the Great Depression
0:14:11 Post-World War II prosperity
0:16:31 Greater Orlando area
0:17:59 Working for the tax collector
0:21:54 Walt Disney World
0:26:50 Working at the Sanford Civic Center
0:28:28 Husband's career in the railroad industry
0:35:19 RECORDING CUTS OFF
0:35:19 Husband, children, and grandchildren
0:38:49 Battle with cancer
0:43:54 Closing remarks
Abstract
Oral history interview of Arthurene Wilson Cook. Interview conducted by Joseph Morris at the <a href="http://www.seminolecountyfl.gov/departments-services/leisure-services/parks-recreation/museum-of-seminole-county-history/" target="_blank">Museum of Seminole County History</a> in Sanford, Florida.
Type
Sound
Source
Original 44-minute and 42-second oral history: Cook, Arthurene Wilson. Interviewed by Joseph Morris. October 4, 2011. Audio record available. <a href="http://www.seminolecountyfl.gov/departments-services/leisure-services/parks-recreation/museum-of-seminole-county-history/" target="_blank">Museum of Seminole County History</a>, Sanford, Florida.
Requires
Multimedia software, such as <a href="http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/" target="_blank"> QuickTime</a>.
<a href="https://get.adobe.com/reader/" target="_blank">Adobe Acrobat Reader</a>
Is Part Of
<a href="http://www.seminolecountyfl.gov/departments-services/leisure-services/parks-recreation/museum-of-seminole-county-history/" target="_blank">Museum of Seminole County History</a>, Sanford, Florida.
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/123" target="_blank">Linda McKnight Batman Oral History Project Collection</a>, Seminole County Collection, RICHES of Central Florida.
Coverage
Orlando, Florida
Sanford, Florida
Columbus, Georgia
Wynwood, Sanford, Florida
Magic Kingdom Park, Lake Buena Vista, Florida
Sanford Civic Center, Sanford, Florida
Creator
Morris, Joseph
Cook, Arthurene Wilson
Contributor
Vickers, Savannah
Date Created
2011-10-04
Date Modified
2014-09-14
Date Copyrighted
2011-10-04
Format
audio/mp3
application/pdf
Extent
451 MB
146 KB
Medium
44-minute and 42-second audio recording
15-page typed digital transcript
Language
eng
Mediator
History Teacher
Civics/Government Teacher
Economics Teacher
Provenance
Originally created by Joseph Morris and Arthurene Wilson Cook.
Rights Holder
Copyright to this resource is held by the <a href="http://www.seminolecountyfl.gov/departments-services/leisure-services/parks-recreation/museum-of-seminole-county-history/" target="_blank">Museum of Seminole County History</a> and is provided here by <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a> for educational purposes only.
Accrual Method
Donation
Curator
Cepero, Laura
Digital Collection
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a>
Source Repository
<a href="http://www.seminolecountyfl.gov/departments-services/leisure-services/parks-recreation/museum-of-seminole-county-history/" target="_blank">Museum of Seminole County History</a>
External Reference
Sanford Historical Society (Fla.). <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/53015288" target="_blank"><em>Sanford</em></a>. Charleston, SC: Arcadia, 2003.
Transcript
<p class="Body"><strong>Morris<br /></strong>It is October 4<sup>th</sup>, 2011, and I am talking to Arthurene Wilson Cook at the Museum of Seminole County History. I am Joseph Morris, representing the Linda McKnight Batman Oral History Project for the Historical Society of Central Florida. Could you tell us about yourself?</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Cook<br /></strong>Well, I was born in Orlando in 1930, and we lived there until I was about eleven years-old, right after Pearl Harbor, so I would say, we moved into Sanford about 1942.</p>
<p class="Body">And, um, I have a very clear remembrance of Pearl Harbor, because I remember being out in the yard. And my parents had company, and I went in, and they were all listening to the radio. And they were talking about the Japanese were attacking Pearl Harbor. And the next day when we went to school, they called us into the chapel, and we listened to FDR [Franklin D. Roosevelt] declare war on Japan. So I can remember that very clearly.</p>
<p class="Body">We moved to Sanford, and we lived on Celery Avenue. And across the street from us was the Department of Agriculture. Had their, their farm, where they raised the various types of vegetables and things, and they tested them and all that kind of stuff. And my brother and I were absolutely enthused, because right up the road about two blocks—and after our house the blocks became long—they[sic] were farms, and they had all this tilled land where the artesian wells flooded the fields and watered them from beneath, rather than on top. And you could reach down there and the artesian wells flowed all the time. Well, we thought all that sulfur water was wonderful. Then we had to live in a house that had sulfur water, and it was not wonderful. Smelled awful. [<em>laughs</em>] But we thought that this was new. We had never lived in the country. We had lived in town—in Orlando—so we were not used to being out, but we went all up and down the fields and cut onions out of the agriculture people’s farm, and made onion sandwiches, and were just carefree, barefooted kids having a good time.</p>
<p class="Body">And, then when we moved to Sanford, I was I think in the fifth grade, and we were here for several years. And then, this is the middle of World War II. And my dad had been in the Army before, and had gotten out when he married my mother in 1927. So, he was drafted. And they were not drafting fathers, but they drafted him. And we did not own a home at that time. We were renting.</p>
<p class="Body">And so we went back to Georgia, to Columbus, Georgia, and lived with my grandparents during World War II while he was gone. And, Georgia was—at that time, had graduated in eleven grades. So when the war was over, I was a senior in high school, and my mother and dad and my brother moved back to Daytona [Beach], and I stayed in Georgia and finished high school. So, I came back, and I didn’t want to go to school another year, so I had already finished. So, and at that point, I went—I had gone to a commercial high school, so I had typing, shorthand, bookkeeping, and how to behave like a young lady in an office and all that kind of stuff.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Cook<br /></strong>So I went to work. And Mom and Daddy, at that time, they had moved over to Sanford. My dad was running a furniture store for another man, called Ted Davis Furniture Company. It was right on East First Street, and part of the downtown area now. And as time went on, the man that owned it offered my dad a partnership, which he took, and this took care of—as time went on, and after we were grown and married, my brother and I bought into that, and we owned the Wilson-Maier Furniture Company.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Morris<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Cook<br /></strong>But, um, I can remember we lived out on the lakefront, which—there’s still a bar out there, but it was down. It was the home of the people that owned the bar, and it was a real nice home, right on the lakefront, going toward DeLand. And when the hurricane came, they were advising people to get out of places that were, you know, dangerous to stay in, because it was coming right that way. So we went down to the store and I can remember, I got up on a stack of mattresses and put something down and went to sleep. So the hurricane went right over me. I had no problem. [<em>laughs</em>] But I remember out West First Street, which is now that main road [State Road] 46, that goes out to the mall. And all the businesses are out there—that was all agriculture, completely, I mean fields and fields and fields of it. And, um…</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Morris <br /></strong>What were they growing?</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Cook<br /></strong>A lot of celery, and cabbage, and broccoli, and onions, and all that kind of stuff. And a lot of oranges, grapefruit, tangerines. I remember, I was sort of full of myself, riding with my dad one day out West First Street, and I said, you know, “This is a highly agricultural area.” He says, “Yeah, they do a bit of farming, too.” [<em>laughs</em>] So, but, uh, it was just a neat place to grow up in. The class that I would have graduated from—with—in Seminole High School, when I came back, since I had been here for several years with them, they sort of just wrapped me into that class, so that I had to go to all, everything, just like I had gone to school here. So it was a nice place to grow up. And—stop for a minute.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Morris<br /></strong>Sure thing. Please go on, ma’am.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Cook<br /></strong>All right, well after high school, I went to work for my dad in the furniture store, and, um, I was not very businesslike nor did I feel like it was—I just did not do well, so he fired me. [<em>laughs</em>]</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Morris <br /></strong>Your father fired you?</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Cook<br /></strong>My father fired me. And I went to the employment agency and they sent me to Florida Fashions, which was right there on First Street in the 300 block. And it was a mail-order company for all kinds of clothes, and it was something to where everybody and anybody that could type had a job there. You just sat down and you typed out all—the order and who you will send it to. And it wasn’t much of a job, but anyway, you typed all day and it was downtown, and you know you could—at lunch, you could go downtown and have lunch, and all that kind of stuff. Anyway, I finally went to work for, um, it was the sporting goods people. That was downstairs from Florida Fashions and I was their bookkeeper, and this was right across the street from our store. So, um, I was working and waiting on people when I wasn’t busy doing keeping books, and the owner came in one day and he told me, he said, “Arthurene, I’m going to have to let you go.” And I said, you know—my first thought was, “What have I done?” He said, “There is no fault of yours. I will give you a very good recommendation.” Well, he said, “My brother-in-law has moved down here and I have to give him a job, and I can’t keep both of you.”</p>
<p class="Body">So at that, I went back to the employment agency, and I got, they sent me to Family Loan Company. Well, I went up there and they wanted to know if I could take shorthand, and I could, and type and books and wait on the customers there.</p>
<p class="Body">And I worked there until my first child was born. And that was about three years later. And, um, I married in 1950, and I had two little boys, David and Dan. And, in the process my husband came home one day and said he wanted a divorce. And, um, so, as time went on—didn’t take very long. Back then if you agreed and he agreed and they were going to do whatever, you could have a divorce in nothing flat. So I had my two little boys, and I had moved home with my mom and daddy.</p>
<p class="Body">And I got a job at the courthouse with the tax collector’s office, and I worked there for a number of years. And I always said when I got out of high school that it didn’t matter what kind of job I would get, but just something that didn’t have anything to do with money. So every job I ever had had something to do with money. [<em>laughs</em>]</p>
<p class="Body">And, then, a friend of mine whose husband worked for the railroad, I had been best friends with her ever since she had come to town. And I went over and a guy that I knew from high school, just very briefly—matter of fact, I was dating his best friend, and I really didn’t know anything about him, and he asked me out. And I said, “Well, you”—he said, well, you know, like going to the beach or going to the movies, or something. We went out to dinner and all, and I said, “Well yes, I would like to go, but,” I said, “I can’t always get a babysitter. There will be times that I would have to take my two boys with me.” He said, “Well, that’s not a problem. I like children.” So we started going together, and we went to the beach, and he reached over and put his hand on my leg, and I said, “Move your hand.” And he said, “Well, somebody thinks that I was their daddy.” I said, “I don’t care what they think. Move it.” [<em>laughs</em>] Anyway, we went together for a year, and we married in 1955, and we have been married a little more than 56 years. So I think it’s going to take. I think it’s going to. [<em>laughs</em>]</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Morris<br /></strong>Crossed fingers?</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Cook<br /></strong>Yeah. [<em>laughs</em>] So, but, to go back to our, um, what it was like around here. There was a division of the black and white communities. And there were only three really big companies that people could go to work for, and feel like, that they could probably retire from that. And that was Chase & Company, who—they raised all sorts of things, and vegetables of all kinds, celery being the main crop. And—but they did fruits and all sorts of vegetables, and cabbage, and carrots. You name it. The fields were everywhere. Matter of fact, when we lived out on the lakefront, the field behind us was—well, as far as you could see back toward First Street. Whatever they had was growing there, the man would always—there was some man that he rented the fields out to other people that actually didn’t own a farm. But they would—this was big, you know, large farming, a lot of it. And they would always say to my mother, “Whatever you need out of here, take it.” So if it was green beans, we had green beans. And if it was cabbage, you know, whatever, we had.</p>
<p class="Body">And to go back just a little ways, but—probably never get this transcribed. When I was growing up during the [Great] Depression, I was never aware of being poor, or not having anything, because nobody had anything to speak of. People didn’t own—very few people owned their own homes. Everybody worked. And, I mean, like my parents when the Depression came along—they had a thousand dollars in the bank. They got a penny. And, I mean, you know, but, I remember I got a bike, and I knew my daddy had redone a bike, you know, a secondhand bike, but it never bothered me. I got a bike. I didn’t care.</p>
<p class="Body">But, it was, after the war, there was a lot of boom going on and building houses and things, so there was lots of work for people. And I know when Walter [Cook] and I got married, we actually bought a house. The Navy was leaving here at that point, or they had gotten—they had built houses in the Wynwood section off 25th street, between there and 46 going toward the east coast. And in that area there, they had two lots of houses that they had built to rent to Navy people. And they quit renting them, redid them, and we bought one of them, where we lived for 31 and a half years. And we built onto it in every direction, but we lived there for a long time. But, you know, the downtown was just about all there was. When you got off as far as French Avenue—that was almost getting in the country.</p>
<p class="Body">And like I said about coming from Orlando, you would run into Maitland, and see a sign that said, “Ye Town of Maitland, County of Orange.” And I always thought at—so quaint. I just looked for it every time. And then when you got to Longwood, it was just a crossroads with filling station. I mean, there was nothing out there, absolutely nothing.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Morris<br /></strong>Not even agriculture?</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Cook<br /></strong>I don’t remember much in that area, and of course, I didn’t do a whole lot in Longwood at that point. Never did. And you know, whatever shopping we ever did, you went to Orlando to buy it. When I first got out of high school, this friend and I—both of us worked, and we worked Saturday morning, and then the office closed at noon. And we would get on the Greyhound bus and go to Orlando, and do our shopping right there on Orange Avenue, have lunch, and then we’d get on the bus and come back home that night. And didn’t think a thing about it. We even went to Jacksonville one day and visited a friend that had gotten married, and went early on a Saturday morning and came back Saturday night. You know, the bus was the way to go.</p>
<p class="Body">But, uh, I was still working at the courthouse when Walter and I got married. And he was working for the railroad, and he worked at night. And back then I worked in the tax collector’s office, because they hired me because I was a fast typist. And I did all the—typed up all the tag numbers and who they belonged to. So then, when all the tax bills were written out—handwritten—the legal descriptions, the whole nine yards was handwritten.</p>
<p class="Body">So up when it was time to do like tags for Chase & Company—which they would have hundreds, because those little trucks that go back and forth across the highway, they have to have a special tag that they cross the highway. And we would have boxes full of Chase & Company things, and we did them at night. So we’d go back and we’d type all those and wait ‘til about 10 o’clock, and then I’d go home. And we had to write out all the tax bills.</p>
<p class="Body">And for the big companies—when I went to work in the courthouse in 1953, I was, uh—the big books, that had all the tax rolls in them, had Sanlando Springs. They were valued on the tax roll, I will say that. You could—on a tax roll, they were valued at $10 a lot. Why I didn’t buy out there for those lots, or well, uh—Sanlando Springs was a beautiful place to swim when we were growing up and going there. You could go in and they had this wonderful place to swim and you had picnics, and everything for years. And then when it started growing up, the whole place is businesses, and restaurants, and mortgage companies, you know, it’s just solid. And if you get there under I[nterstate]-4 now, prepare to tear out your hair, because traffic is horrendous. [<em>laughs</em>] But back then, that was just uh, right up the road.</p>
<p class="Body">But I worked until we paid my daddy off for the furniture we bought for our house, because we bought a house before we got married, and then we came back home and signed the papers on it that we, you know—so it would be in both our names. So it was all furnished and all before we got married, and I worked at the courthouse until about the late part of ’56. And my husband said, “One of us has got to raise the boys, and the other one has got to make a living, and I think I can do better than you.” Well, I knew that he could make better money than I was, because I wasn’t making but $25 a week. [<em>laughs</em>]</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Morris<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Cook<br /></strong>So I went home and stayed home, and in about 18 months, or two years, we had a daughter. So I was very busy being a mother and a wife, and doing a lot of church work. I’ve been a member of First Baptist Church of Sanford since 1947. I’m still there, and I’ve done a little bit of everything there.</p>
<p class="Body">But, um, you know, back before [Walt] Disney [World], it was just a whole different thing. When my daughter was in high school, somebody told her that she could—if she was cute she could get a job at Walt Disney World, on the main gate of the Magic Kingdom. So she went down there and applied with a bunch of girls, and she worked there all through high school, and all through college, on every, uh—summers, Christmas, anytime they were off for any period of time, she worked down there. So we got in free, which was wonderful. And we got to see, you know, the Main Street Parade, when the fireworks went off for the Fourth of July, all of that stuff. And, you know, they drove back and forth. I know very few people that work at Disney World anymore, because of the traffic between the two places. It’s just not happening. [<em>laughs</em>]</p>
<p class="Body">But, um, I worked at the, um—I went back and forth to the courthouse. Shortly after—before, I had my daughter, they called me in and said they were going to go to—I can’t remember what it was—but what they said we had to do was type the entire tax roll into a metal plate, that they were going to print off this metal plate. And they were going to print tax rolls. So we had to do the legal, the name of who owned it, and all this, on, uh—and we were in the—this was the old courthouse. We were in the basement, and this thing, I mean—you know what metal cutting into metal would be. “Whoom whoom whoom.”</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Morris<br /></strong>Yes.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Cook <br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>] It was really crazy. But, um, I remember Dottie Anthony—who was Dottie von Turbulis[sp] at that time. And she and I spent several—about a month or two working down there. Every time they had something that they needed, they’d call me in. And for years a friend of mine, Louise Austin, and I would go back and we would work when, um—there were twin sisters in one office, and when they left, they had to have somebody cover for them in the clerk’s office. And I worked down there many, many summers until they went to computers. And then I knew nothing about computers, and it was fast. And the [Seminole] County, by then, was growing so fast, they had, uh, you know—two people being out, it was nothing.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Morris<br /></strong>Oh, I understand.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Cook<br /></strong>You know, they, uh—but back when you do it all by hand, it was, it really was something. But, um…</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Morris<br /></strong>So these were all jobs after you were married? And you would stay home with the children, but they would call you in occasionally for help?</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Cook<br /></strong>Right. Right.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Morris<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Cook <br /></strong>Yeah, I’ve even—they’ve called and said, “Will you come in and do the docket for us?” I would, you know, go in at one o’clock, sit down and type for four hours, and get up and leave. And they offered me a job and said I could come when I wanted to and leave when I wanted to, if I would just do it. So I told my husband about it, and he didn’t say much. So the first day I left him at home, I told him, “Now, the boys have homework. They need to do the homework. And they need to do it.” Well, he didn’t do anything. And I said, “I don’t know how you could expect me to work if you’re not going to help me.” He said, “I did not ask you to go to work.” He didn’t want me to go to work. [<em>laughs</em>]</p>
<p class="Body">But, uh, and then I did many, many years of, uh, when the voting—I was clerk of one of the precincts, the court, the [Sanford] Civic Center. I was down there first as just a helper, and then I was the clerk for a number of years. And that was, it was always a lot of fun, because you got to see everybody in that whole precinct. But by the time I was in my seventies, getting up at 4:30 and working until seven o’clock that night lost a lot of its luster. [<em>laughs</em>]</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Morris<br /></strong>Oh, I can imagine.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Cook <br /></strong>But the last election, we did early voting out at the office there on the airport. And I said to the gal—she was, you know, telling—complaining about it. And I said, “I used to work the elections.” “Would you like to work now?” And I said, “No, thank you.” [<em>laughs</em>] But, um, let’s see now who we—well, I’ve covered my job, and my family, and, uh…</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Morris<br /></strong>Well, how about your husband’s job? What kind of work did he do?</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Cook<br /></strong>Railroad. We didn’t cover the railroad. Uh, he was working for the railroad when I started dating him. And he had—they would call me and say—he’d be off on a run and they would call me and say, “He’s going to have to go straight through to Tampa. Will you have a set of clean clothes and something for him to eat when he comes through?” So you go out, and the train comes in, and you hand him this, and hand him that, and off he goes. And then we had been on train trips where the railroad would do a lot for their employees. And one time they took us all the way on the train to Rainbow Springs, over in—up around the Gainesville area. A day trip. And out to, uh, there was another springs that we went to one time. But, um, it worked a lot better that, you know, that I was at home and him working at night. Because in the beginning, you know, if you’re starting at the bottom, you work whatever. But like he says, they always were on time paying you, and you never had to worry about the check not being any good. It was a busy thing. And not everybody can live railroading. That is a whole different lifestyle, because they are gone probably 75 percent of the time. And you never know day, or if they work the extra board, you don’t know day or night, where they’re going. When the telephone rings, that’s when you go to work. And I know, I guess about the worst thing that ever happened to him on the railroad, was, um, he came home one morning, and he was pretty shook up. And we were eating breakfast, and he told the kids that he had ran over a little girl that ran in front of the train.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Morris<br /></strong>Oh, no.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Cook <br /></strong>And, uh, he had about three different people, that, uh—he was coming out of Tampa one time, and a lady looked up at him and walked right in front of the train. And then, of course they put on emergency brake, you know, you can’t stop a train on a dime.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Morris<br /></strong>No.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Cook<br /></strong>I mean, if you get stopped in a mile, you’re doing good[sic], and that’s with air brakes and the whole business. And he said the woman came up and asked, he said, “What happened?” And he said, “Well, there was a young lady stepped in front of me just as I got to her.” And he said she said, “What was she wearing?” And Walter told her, and she said, “That was my daughter.” And, uh, he had about three of those, and they always—I mean, it’s hard.</p>
<p class="Body">It happened to my son, too. When my oldest son, David, became old enough, he worked at the store for my daddy and all of us. And he went out to SCC [Seminole Community College], but he was not a student at all. He wouldn’t even let us pay for his books or anything, he said because, “If I don’t do good[sic], then you won’t say, ‘Well, I paid for all this.’” He said, “I paid for it myself.” [<em>laughs</em>] So every Wednesday when he got off, he would go to the railroad and ask them about a job, and this went on for quite some time, but he got a job and went to Jacksonville. So that happened to him. But when you work on the railroad, that it was one of the things. People, cars, things run out in front of you and there’s no way to stop. And you just never know. But it’s a well-paying job, and the benefits were great, and we just adjusted.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Morris<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Cook<br /></strong>We just adjusted to the whole thing, and didn’t have any problem. And then when, right before he retired, we, on our 40th wedding anniversary, we took a train from Sanford to Los Angeles[, California], and then we rented a car and went up to Portland, Oregon. And we went space available, which is like half-price if you’re on another railroad. And we stayed there a couple or three days. Portland is a wonderful city to visit. And he got up about three o’clock in the morning, and he said, “I’m going to call and see what they can do about getting us going home.” And he came back in a few minutes, and he said there’s a young lady, she says, “I can get you home, not the way want to go, but I can get you back home.” And he says, “All right, we’ll take it.” And she said, “It’ll take five days.” [<em>laughs</em>] And we had to go back to L.A., and up to Chicago[, Illinois], and over to Philadelphia[, Pennsylvania], to Richmond[, Virginia] to Sanford. [<em>laughs</em>] But we had bedrooms all the way, so that was not too bad.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Morris<br /></strong>Oh, okay.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Cook<br /></strong>But the clothes that I wore on that trip—I don’t think I ever had on again. I was so tired of them. Oh, let’s stop a minute.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Morris<br /></strong>Sure thing, ma’am. Ma’am, would you tell us a little more about your family? I know you mentioned your son in the railroad business briefly.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Cook<br /></strong>Uh, well, there was my husband Walter, and we had the three children. David was born in ’51, and Dan in ’53, and Sherry [Cook] in ’58. And now we have 10 grandchildren, and we have seven great-grandchildren. And just this past spring, in less than two months, we had three little girls born.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Morris<br /></strong>Triplets?</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Cook<br /></strong>No. It seems that all of these children had finished college, gotten married, and they were all fairly close between the families, so all of them started having babies all at one time. [<em>laughs</em>]</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Morris<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Cook<br /></strong>So we had four, and then all of a sudden three more. So we don’t have anything to even think about right now. [<em>laughs</em>]</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Morris <br /></strong>Rushed up [inaudible] a horde of great-grandchildren.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Cook<br /></strong>Yes. So that has kept us very, very busy. My husband has been retired 16 years. And up until a few years ago, we spent part of every summer in North Carolina. And then we thought, after a while, that we had—well, when we first started going up, you know, there were a lot of people from Sanford, and we had our own little Sanford in North Carolina. And we would spend the summer up there and do all sorts of things, and then, you know, they had to move back home. They might have died, went somewhere else, and all of a sudden none of those people are up there anymore. So it has made a difference.</p>
<p class="Body">But my oldest son David lives in The Villages, and that’s a very busy lifestyle and a whole lot of different way of living. Everybody travels in their golf cart, and if you want to be busy, there are a gillion[sic] things you can do. My son Dan died nine years ago, and my daughter Sherry lives in Carey, North Carolina. She works for the State of North Carolina. She spent nine years in the Marine Corps, and in that time married a Marine.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Morris<br /></strong>Oh, okay. She was in the Marines, then.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Cook<br /></strong>Yep. And she says, “Once a Marine, always a Marine.” So she and her husband have four children, and David and his wife had four children, and Dan and his wife had two. So that was our 10 grandchildren, and trying to keep up with all of them wasn’t a problem when I was younger, and the older I get, the harder that is to do.</p>
<p class="Body">And back in 2001, I—well, let me go back. Back in ’96, I had a total knee replacement. When I woke up, they told me I had a blip in my blood protein that had to be investigated. Well, I had no idea what a blip in my blood protein could mean to me. So finally, I said, “Well, what do I have to do?” “Well, we’re going to X-ray every bone in your body, and if you have holes in them, we will start treatment today.” I thought, “Wow.” Well, I had the X-ray, and there were no holes in my bones, so they said, “Now you have to have a bone marrow transplant.” No, not—bone marrow biopsy. And if it is clear, you just need to have your blood checked every six months.” Well, I had the biopsy, and I had my bones checked every six months. And they did the blood work, and every time, they said, “If you don’t hear from us, we’ll see you in six months.” This went on for five years. At the end of the fifth year in 2001, they called me back, and they said that they needed to do some testing. And after about the third test, I said, “Is it cancer?” And he said, “Without a doubt.”</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Morris<br /></strong>What type of cancer was it, ma’am?</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Cook<br /></strong>Multiple myeloma, which is a blood-borne cancer. But if it is let go, it causes the bones to crumble. And so they told me that if you did not treat it, or if it was not diagnosed and, you know, nothing—you had no symptoms or you didn’t go to the doctor for years, you could be walking along and you could break your arm, your leg, your neck, back, whatever. So they told me that I was very fortunate that I had been checked for five years, and so mine had just become to the point where I had to have, uh—take care of it. So I started on the chemo[therapy]. And I lost all my hair, which is always a big shock to women. But, uh, anyway—and then some of the medicines they gave me, years down the road, after you’d been taking them a while—four years—I discovered that one of the medicines had destroyed my jawbone. So I had went to a doctor in Miami. He was the only one in the world—he found out about it, he worked on it. He went in the lab and did the pharmacology and all. And last October, I have a titanium jawbone from my ear to the middle of my chin.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Morris<br /></strong>Titanium?</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Cook<br /></strong>Titanium.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Morris<br /></strong>Chewing will never be a problem for you, ma’am.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Cook <br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>] No. So, I’ve been in remission now about four years.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Morris<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Cook<br /></strong>And, uh, there’s no cure for multiple myeloma, but I’ll take remission. [<em>laughs</em>] And that’s where my energy went. [<em>laughs</em>]</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Morris<br /></strong>Oh. Dealing with all the grandchildren got a little hard after that?</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Cook<br /></strong>It got really difficult. So I wrote them a real sweet letter last year, and told them that I loved them all, that I would love to have them visit and all that, but I was going to, uh, I said, at Christmastime, I’ll always do the same thing. But all these birthdays and all, when you’re married, you know—we went from 10 to almost 20 real quick. And then they started having children. So I said, “I’m doing the great-grand[kid]s.” I will do those. And so far, none of them have complained.</p>
<p class="Body">But, yeah, I kept asking the nurses when I was first diagnosed, oncology nurses, I said, “When will I get my energy back?” They said, “Some time you never do.” But I have been very blessed, because when I got on the computer and looked at what multiple myeloma was in 2001, I did not expect to be here. So I am very blessed.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Morris <br /></strong>Congratulations, ma’am.<strong> </strong></p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Cook<br /></strong>And, so our family has grown. And Sanford has grown like you wouldn’t believe. And in every community—all the places where the mall is—was all agriculture. And, used to, you would go for miles and miles between Orlando and Sanford and see nothing. And now there’s not as bare space between the two. [<em>laughs</em>] So there has been a lot of change, not all of it for the better, but there’s a lot of blessings too. And I thank you. That was it.</p>
<p class="Body"><strong>Morris<br /></strong>All right. Thank you very much, ma’am. </p>
1st Street
Anthony, Dottie Von Turbulis
artesian wells
Austin, Louise
bookkeepers
cancers
Carey, North Carolina
Celery Avenue
Chase & Company
Columbus, Georgia
Cook, Arthurene Wilson
Cook, Sherry
Cook, Walter
courthouses
divorces
Downtown Sanford
drafts
elections
Family Loan Company
First Baptist Church of Sanford
First Street
Florida Fashions
French Avenue
Great Depression
Historical Society of Central Florida
hurricanes
Linda McKnight Batman Oral History Project
Longwood
Magic Kingdom
Maitland
Morris, Joseph
multiple myeloma
Museum of Seminole County History
Orange Avenue
orlando
Pearl Harbor, Hawaii
railroads
railways
Sanford
Sanford Civic Center
Sanford, North Carolina
Sanlando Springs
Seminole High School
SR 46
tax collectors
Ted Davis Furniture Company
The Villages
trains
Von Turbulis, Dottie
voting
Walt Disney World
Wilson-Maier Furniture Company
Wilson, Arthurene
World War II
WWII
Wynwood, 25th Street