Johnson
Today is November 13th, 2014. I’m interviewing Terry [W.] Wheeler, who served in the Army from 1981 to 1990. I’m Taylor Johnson. Mr. Wheeler served during the Cold War era. He spent time in Fort Knox, Kentucky; Schweinfurt[, Lower Franconia, Bavaria], Germany; and [U.S. Army Infantry School] Fort Benning, Georgia. My name’s Taylor Johnson, again. We’re interviewing Mr. Wheeler as a part of the UCF [University of Central Florida] Community Veterans History Project. We’re recording this interview at the University of Central Florida in Orlando, Florida. So my first question is: where were you born?
Wheeler
I was born in Fort Lee, Virginia.
Johnson
And when were you born?
Wheeler
1959. Fort Lee is a military post, and that is the—that is the Army hospital on post[?].
Johnson
So you—sorry.
Wheeler
That’s okay.
Johnson
So you grew up on a military post?
Wheeler
My dad was in the military, and we grew up—I grew up in, uh, location to location, across the United States and Europe, until he retired in 1971.
Johnson
So what did your father do for the military?
Wheeler
He was a logistics officer. He was a ward officer [clears throat], and, uh, he—he spent, uh, time in WWII [World War II], Korea[n War], and three tours in Vietnam [War].
Johnson
So what did your mother do for a living?
Wheeler
She was a housewife, Uh, up until about the time my dad retired, and then she came back into the workforce.
Johnson
Do you have any siblings?
Wheeler
No, I don’t.
Johnson
So what did you do before you entered the service?
Wheeler
I was in college. I was a ROTC [Reserve Officers’ Training Corps] cadet at Gonzaga University, and so I was a college student.
Johnson
What did you study?
Wheeler
I was a business major.
Johnson
Um, so do you have any other family members that served in the military?
Wheeler
Um, uncles. My—my dad’s oldest brother was killed during World War II. Uh, his old—his younger brother served in the Navy. His other younger brother served in the Air Force, and then I have cousins who have served in the military also.
Johnson
So what prompted you to enter the military?
Wheeler
It’s a—it’s a very easy decision to make, if you grew up in a military family. Uh, it was just a logical progression of what I would like to do to serve, and so I made that decision—when I was in high school—that I was gonna serve.
Johnson
Um…
Wheeler
[clears throat].
Johnson
So how did your family members feel about you entering the service?
Wheeler
Uh, they were very supportive. They were not, uh, overly pushing me towards that decision. It was my own decision to make. Uh, my mother was not as happy with that decision as she would’ve been if I had stayed in the civilian side, uh, but that’s the way it turned out.
Johnson
Um, so what were your first days in the service like?
Wheeler
I came in at the end of December 1981, and came on active duty, and went to my basic qualification course at Fort Knox. I was an Armor Officer, and so, for the next four and a half months, I spent time at Fort Knox learning how to be a platoon leader—a second Lieutenant, and then I was assigned to Germany after that.
Johnson
So what did you do as an Armor Officer?
Wheeler
Well, sp—the position that I was in was, uh, a cavalry position. That is a sub-branch of the armor—a subsection of the armor. Uh, Cavalry is a screen unit—a—a scout unit, if you will, that works in a divisional or regimental level. Basically, the cav’s mission is to, uh, screen and be the leading edge of a, uh—of the unit, uh, in the advance, to screen the flanks to make sure there are no surprises. So it’s very, very light, very, very fast reconnaissance.
Johnson
Um, so what was your initial training like?
Wheeler
Four and a half months of learning everything, from personnel actions to vehicle repair to how to employ the weapons systems on all the vehicles that we are going to be assigned, Radio communications. I mean, the entire gamut that you would expect to serve in that posi—in a ge—in that position as a leader. Uh, second lieutenant platoon leader is an entry-level position for combat arms. Um, Basically, uh, you’re in charge of about 38 soldiers and about—at that—at that point in time [sighs]—let me count vehicles real quick—about 13 vehicles.
Johnson
Um,okay.
Wheeler
[clears throat].
Johnson
So what do you remember most about your time in training?
Wheeler
Time in training?
Johnson
Mmhmm.
Wheeler
Fort Knox, in the wintertime, is very cold. As Germany is very cold. Um, it was a lot of fun. We learned a lot in a very short amount of time, and, uh, long days, long nights, and it was a really good building experience. Uh, the people that you meet, in that same course, are people that[sic] you serve with in the military throughout your career, and it is a boomerang-type effect, because you come back together. They’re sent to units, you’re sent to units, you run into them for training exercises or operational deployments. You come back together for training over time, and so you’re building a cohort of—of people that you serve with throughout the rest of your career.
Johnson
Um…
Wheeler
[clears throat].
Johnson
What type of advanced training did you receive, if any?
Wheeler
Um, really, advanced is not key to this, at that point. Um, basically, you know, eh, for the armor side, you come in, you’re given, uh, the tra—the base training, and you go out and be a platoon leader, and you spend a couple years doing that. If you’re selected for the advanced course, then you come back as a ju—a senior lieutenant or a junior-grade captain, and go through another six-month type course, where they lear—they—you need to learn how to be an effective commander of a small unit—a Company Commander. At the end of that, then you go out and serve a utilization tour, being a leader at that level. So it’s, you know, two grades up, and then, at that point, then you—you split off in your career, and pull the secondary career, and so you split off into another area, and so, at that point then—rom that point forward in your career you, flip flop between your primary and your secondary specialty. So I really didn’t have advanced training, other than the fact that I went through the career course as a Captain, and then commanded a unit.
Johnson
Okay, um…
Wheeler
[clears throat] Excuse me.
Johnson
So when did you find out that you were going to Germany?
Wheeler
Um, April 1982. Right at the end—I received orders for that, right as I was finishing up my qualification course.
Johnson
And how did you react to that news?
Wheeler
I was very happy. I had spent two years in Germany as a child. I already spoke fluent German, and so it was not a huge, life-changing experience to go over there. Um, usually what you walk as a—as an American, when you walk into Germany—not having served there, not having any background to it—you go through a couple weeks of qualif—uh, of familiarization, where you learn rudimentary language, and I was not—I was able to just bypass that and mainstream right in.
Johnson
Um, so what was, uh—what was a routine day like during your assignment in Germany?
Wheeler
Well, [clears throat] I can give you a routine—a, uh, better description than that. For the first year that I was there as a platoon leader, we were in the field 280 days out of 365 days that year. We would deploy out for a, uh—a 30-day session on a border camp, where we would patrol the East German[1] interzonal border. From that, we would get on the train and go to a gunnery—three or four weeks of tank gunnery, and from that, we would deploy to a field exercise, go home for two weeks, and then go back to the border for 30 days. So we spent most of our time out actually doing our real world mission, at that point. Um, up at six in the morning, uh, some pu—some, uh—in effect, through midnight—one in the morning. I mean, it was a very, very, very dynamic, high stress, long day environment.
Johnson
So what did you do in each of those three sort of positions?
Wheeler
At the border camp, we were responsible to patrol a section of border of—of the East German interzonal border. This was still when the [Berlin] Wall was up. between 2nd ACR [Armored Calvary Regiment] and 11th ACR, we had this—this—this piece of the border that had to be actually manned, and stood ready to—to announce that any—any incursion had come across the border. We were fully combat-loaded. We were deployed there 30 days at a time. We spent 10 days, eh, in a steady reaction state of walking around, with full gear loaded on, helmets in our hands, ready to walk out the gate with five minutes notice to go to our general positions and fight a war. Okay? We spent 10 days in training. We spent 10 days doing actual patrols in jeeps up and down the interzonal border. Uh, it is the—It was the—other than Korea—at that point, it was—we were one of the most forward-deployed units in the Army, at that time. All the vehicles were fully uploaded with the ammunition and ready to go.
Johnson
So what did you do at the gunnery?
Wheeler
Gunnery was—there’s a—there’s a—a full qualification session that you have to—to do in tanks to maintain proficiency, and you do that more than two to three—four times a year, and so you would go, and there were actually exercises that you run, shooting live guns, live ammunition at the range, and you qualify as a tank crew, as a section of two, platoon of four, and a company of 12, and so it is, basically, you know, move and shoot, and communicate, and prov—proving proficiency that you can do that.
Johnson
What did you think of the Germans?
Wheeler
Well, uh, where we were stationed in Germany, it was in—it was in the very northern end of Bavaria. Germans were very, very polite people. Uh, very welcoming. Um, I’m not so sure that the Germans really enjoyed being occupied still after 40 years of—after the end of the [World] War [II], but, uh, they were very nice. Uh, they—if you spoke German, or at least tried to fit in and blend in, you get a lot further than being an ugly American, and, uh, it was a very pleasant place, and we saw a lot of it riding in the back of a military vehicle.
Johnson
What was your most memorable day during that assignment?
Wheeler
Give me a second. Um, [clears throat] we had a soldier that died in a training accident, and the aftermath of that was really hard to deal with. Uh, It was not his—it was not a—a—a, uh—a safety issue that was the direct cause. It truly was an accident. Uh, The tank that he was riding in, uh, went over, uh—now, in Germany—back in the Germany, uh, the train—a lot of the trains and some of the streetcars would run with electricity, and they had these high tension wires overhead, and he was riding in a tank, and the—the antenna on his tank, uh, snapped loose and the antenna went up and hit the top of the—of the high voltage wire, and it arced electricity through the vehicle, and the vehicle basically exploded, and three of the—of the four crew were able to get out, and he was unable to get out, and he passed away. So that was very difficult to deal with. Uh, seeing the aftermath of that [clears throat], having to pull the tank apart, trying to take his remains out, you know, that kind of thing. So that—that was a very memorable day.
Johnson
Um, what did you do with your free time, while you were in Germany?
Wheeler
Traveled.
Johnson
Uh, can you tell me about that?
Wheeler
A—again, we were deployed most of the time. So when there was a free couple of day—a week—a weekend, or a free three- or four-day event, we would get in the car and disappear. Drove all over Bavaria, uh, spent time in France [clears throat], spent some time, uh, in Northern Germany. Um, basically just enjoying the, uh—the countryside and the people.
Johnson
Um, so how did you stay in touch with your family while you were overseas?
Wheeler
We didn’t have email, at that time. Computers were still brand new [clears throat]. So it was by post. Uh, Telephone calls were very expensive, so telephones didn’t really get figured into that, so letters.
Johnson
And what do you remember about the people that you served with, while you were there?
Wheeler
I still have friends that I’ve stayed in contact with, after all these years. That was, uh, 1982-1983-1984 timeframe. I still stay in touch with a few of ‘em. Uh, Very dedicated group of people, um, very like-minded. Uh, you find in the military that not just the clothes you wear make you the same. Very, very similar backgrounds, characteristics, views on the world, and, uh, it was a very, very good time to be a young officer, at that point.
Johnson
Um, and what was it like when you came back to the U.S.?
Wheeler
They call the flight from Germany to the United States the “freedom bird” for a reason. Uh, everyone’s happy to come home. Uh, it is a great feeling of—of, uh, assimilation back into society [clears throat], into the culture that you—you are in. It—and, you know, it is—it is—it wasn’t different, at that point in time. It was Europe, and different language, different money, different feel. It was—it was coming home. So it was very nice to come back to the States.
Johnson
Um, and what do you remember about Fort Benning?
Wheeler
[clears throat] Benning is the home of the Infantry [Branch]. Uh, It is—it is a[sic], uh, Infantry training center. Ranger School’s there, Airborne School, Pathfinder [School]. Um, I was assigned to the 2nd Battalion, 69th Armor [Regiment], at that—at that point, and we went and we were part of a round—we were part of a—a, uh, brigade that was a round-out element for the, uh, rapid deployment force—XVIII Airborne Corps. So we were, again, fairly—fairly well getting ready to be on, you know—on a couple hours’ notice, ready to deploy into the world, but, uh, it was—it was a great training opportunity. We were the only armor unit on post. So we would get tagged for a lot of fire demonstrations and combined arms demonstrations, when the—when the—when the, uh, senior, uh, officers would come—come into town [clears throat], and so we spent a lot of time working with the Infantry. We really refined the—the union—the union of the true mechanized team, at that point. So it was not armor pure. It was that combined arms element that we really struggled to, uh, put in place, and it was really, really great training opportunity.
Johnson
Did you receive any advanced training for your job as a Tank Company Commander?
Wheeler
Yeah, I went through the advanced course. That was, ah—so coming back from Germany, I spent six months again at Fort Knox, going through the next phase of that course and came out, eh, eh, basically ready to be a Company Commander. So when I was—I was deployed to Benning, I spent the next, uh, 16 months as a Maintenance Officer for a battalion, and then was assigned as a Company Commander, and spent, uh, [sighs] another probably 18 to 20 months, I guess, as a Tank Company Commander.
Johnson
Um…
Wheeler
[clears throat].
Johnson
So what can you tell me about your job with combat simulations—the combat simulations branch?
Wheeler
At the end of my command time, uh, I picked my secondary specialty as Operations Research and Systems Analysis, and there was a group that was doing that type of work attached to the Infantry center, and so I went in, and I was a—an Executive Officer for this small group that used computers—which were very, very, uh, elementary, as compared to what we have now—to do war gaming, to look at how new equipment inserted into a battlefield would make a differential change.
So basically, you would take the characteristics of—of a new weapon system, and you would deploy that with—so you’d run simulations without that weapon system and you would run simulations with that weapons system, and look for the differentials that you could achieve and how much more advantage it gave you. It was part of the co—cost and operational effectiveness analysis for getting those systems to be brought online.
Johnson
Um, so—I lost my place. Um, what was a routine day like while you were in Georgia?
Wheeler
Um, at—at the—at the, uh—at the armor group job? Or in the, uh—the simulations job?
Johnson
Um, either one.
Wheeler
Armor job—realistically, almost every line unit almost has the exact same type of training as—same type of day. Uh, up in the morning, depending on, you know—three days a week you run PT [physical training] from six o’clock to seven o’clock, have a shower, be back at—at work at—at eight for formation. Going through the day, whether training, or maintenance, or what have you, and are usually done by six o’clock at night, Uh, Back home to families.
Um, the—the Executive Officer’s job is—at the branch, we would spend the day doing the same thing. We would do PT a couple days a week, and then, um, go into what was more of an office-style environment to do those simulations. Um, we had a staff of about eight members—both soldiers and civilians—that worked that group, and we would do these simulation exercises on the computers.
Johnson
So what was it like when your service ended?
Wheeler
Um, [clears throat] I made the decision to—to, uh, resign my commission and come out of active duty, uh, in early spring of 1990. Um, my secondary priority[?]—I had already worked at my secondary specialty for two years, and was unable to get the Army to agree to send me to grad[uate] school for a funded grad program, and I had watched officers who had gone through the Army non-funded program and the funded grad program, come out and see how effective they were in that job, and the ones that[sic] were coming out, not having gone to grad school, were not being retained, and I was not selected to go through the grad program, so that basically was the de—deciding point [clears throat] that, if I couldn’t do that and retain my time—because I figured, at that point, I would not be able to continue. I elected to resign and get out, and then I, uh, applied for grad school and went to grad school. Um, My ETS [Expiration Term of Service] was June 30th, 1990, and the Army froze all separation actions July 15th, for the [Persian] Gulf War. So that was immediately—I mean, it was—it days before the Gulf War jumped from there, almost.
Johnson
Um, so what did you study when you went to grad school?
Wheeler
I studied information systems, and, uh, spend 18 months in grad school.
Johnson
Um, What can you tell us about the awards that you received from the Army?
Wheeler
Very, very common, uh, awards that people, you know—you spend eight years doing that. Um, nothing—nothing major. Um, you know, Army Achievement Medals for stuff, and, uh, that’s pretty much it. Nothing major.
Johnson
Um, and what was the most memorable thing overall about your time in the service?
Wheeler
You know, as I alluded to earlier, uh, it is a—it is a great pleasure to spend time with people of a like mind. Okay? I found a lot of the people, that[sic] I spent time with, had the same values, same views on the world, politics, that I did, and so it was a brotherhood, and just the—the people that[sic] I—and the friendships, I guess, that I had—had gained, and the relationships from work that I had from that group of people is what I retained from that.
Johnson
Um, and what was your job after you left the service.
Wheeler
When I came out I went to grad school and finished grad school at Syracuse [University], and, uh, [clears throat] I went to work for IBM [International Business Machines Corporation] as an intern, did that for about nine months, and then came into the private sector.
Johnson
Um, and what are you doing now?
Wheeler
I am currently the director of IT [information technology] services for the Student Development and Enrollment Services division here[2] on campus.
Johnson
So what can you tell me about that?
Wheeler
Basically, SDES is the largest division on campus. We have about 2,400 staff that we maintain computer action for servers for, so desktop, laptop, database, uh, web design, and that’s what we encompass. So basically, I run the services side of that group.
Johnson
Um, and how has your time in the military affected your life since then?
Wheeler
There hasn’t really been an effect since then. It was a—any time you transition from the military to the ci—the civilian sector, it can create a period of—of, uh, change, I guess you would say. Uh, going from the major activities, and the mindset, and the—the guidelines that we do into what the civilian world does not encompass. Um, it took about a year—a year and a half—to go through that and actually transition the mindset away.
Johnson
And do you belong to any veterans groups?
Wheeler
No, I do not.
Johnson
What do you do with your free time since you left the service?
Wheeler
Uh, I have—I have children. So pretty much now it’s just work and—and, you know, time with family and Boy Scouts [of America].
Johnson
Um, and what would you say to someone who is contemplating enlisting or becoming a commissioned officer today?
Wheeler
Military service is an honor, and, uh, it’s a calling that, if you’re called to do, you really want to without any real reason to explain why, and it’s a very, very honorable thing to do, and if that is—if that is a design that is something that interests someone to do, I encourage them fully to accept that and enjoy.
Johnson
Um, is there anything that we haven’t talked about that you would like to talk about?
Wheeler
No, ma’am.
Johnson
Alright. Well, thank you for your time, and for coming to talk with me today, and thank you for your service. I appreciate your participation, and we will be in touch with you once we have a copy of your interview.
Wheeler
Thank you.
Johnson
Thank you.
Sturm
And, by the way, I assume this is going to be edited?
Hollingsworth
No.
Sturm
No? Okay. Alright.
Hollingsworth
Okay. So Today—it is the 13th of November, 2014, and I am interviewing Dr. Ray Sturm, who served in the U.S. Army as a Sergeant in the 210th Field Artillery Brigade, 34th Infantry Division. I am interviewing Dr. Sturm as part of the UCF [University of Central Florida] Community Veterans History Project. We are recording this interview in Orlando, Florida.
Hollingsworth
So when and where were you born?
Sturm
Uh, I was born right here in Central Florida. I was born inWinter Park, uh, in [October 22,] 1963.
Hollingsworth
Okay, and, uh, what did your parents do for a living?
Sturm
Uh, my dad was a CPA [Certified Public Accountant], and my mom was a homemaker.
Hollingsworth
Um, how big was your family?
Sturm
Uh, just the three of us. Well, and…
Hollingsworth
Just the three of you?
Sturm
And my grandmother lived with us…
Hollingsworth
Oh.
Sturm
Uh, until I was about 10 years old.
Hollingsworth
And, um, what do you remember mostly about your childhood?
Sturm
Um, what do I remember mostly?
Hollingsworth
[laughs] Mmhmm[?].
Sturm
Um, having a lot of fun [laughs], and, uh, like—you know, like we, uh, had talked about earlier, uh, actually growing up near the Navy base. Uh, we were just two blocks from the Navy base there. Um, and that kind of impacted, uh—impacted our lives a little bit.
Hollingsworth
And, uh, what kind of education did you receive?
Sturm
Well, after high school, um, and after, uh, my military service, uh, I got my Bachelor’s, uh, [degree] and Master’s [degree] from University of Central Florida. So Bachelor’s in accounting, Master’s in taxation, um, and then I received a, uh, Doctorate [degree] in finance from Florida Atlantic University.
Hollingsworth
Okay, and, um, before you enlisted, what did you—what sort of things did you enjoy doing?
Sturm
Um, I enjoyed surfing. I enjoyed surfing and I enjoyed, uh, exercising. I was a—I was always very physical. So I ran track all through high school and—and in junior high. Um, and, uh, anything that involved sports I was, uh—I was interested in doing.
Hollingsworth
Uh, were any of your other family members in the military?
Sturm
Yes. Uh, yeah. My grandfather, um, was in the Army Corps of Engineers. Um, I think he was—I think that was actually a civilian position, But he was working in that. My, uh, step grandfather was, um, actually drafted in—I believe it was the Army, and, uh, he was drafted at like 40 years old, uh, in World War II. He was not—not very happy about that, and, um, my dad was in the Air Force, Which is what brought us down here to Central Florida in the first place.
Hollingsworth
Ah, and, Um, how aware were you of the Cold War, before you enlisted?
Sturm
Um, not very. Uh, you know, obviously, uh, I knew it was going on, but, uh, you know, I enlisted at 20 years old, so I wasn’t, uh—I wasn’t, uh, all that aware of, uh—of the Cold War. I was more aware of [the Invasion of] Grenada,[1] because I went in right a—a month after that happened. So[?]…
Hollingsworth
Yeah, uh, what influenced you to enlist?
Sturm
Um, lots of things. Uh, at that time, um, uh, I was in, uh—I was in college, but I wasn’t really a student yet. So, um, you know, I was—I was still—still seeking, and really just everything, at that time, uh, uh, pointed towards the military. Um, one of the rea—one of the main reasons I did go in though was: I had always had an interest in the military. I mean, I could—I could remember, even back in elementary school, doing a book report on World War II. You know, so I had always had an interest in the, uh—in the military, um, and just kind of, you know, the, um, spirit of the American soldier, I guess you could say.
Hollingsworth
Hm, and, uh, why did you choose the Army?
Sturm
Um, because I—when I went in, um, you know—like I said, I went in for a lot of reasons. uh, and I was actually very, uh—you know, I never planned on making it a career, but I did wanna do everything that I could do while I was in. um, and I figured that, uh, if—if I went in the Marines, uh, that I was going to have to be hardcore for three years, whether I liked it or not. Um, I didn’t want to go into the Navy, because the idea of being on a ship for nine months at a time didn’t appeal to me. Um, and I didn’t want to go into the Air Force, because I—I didn’t—I wasn’t aware of some of the, uh—some of the things that you could do in the Air Force, at that time. Um, but, uh, uh, I wanted to—I chose the Army, because I thought it was a good compromise between being, uh—uh, being very hardcore and not so much. So I went in that, uh, figuring that if I really liked it, then I could go that route. Uh, if I didn’t like it, I didn’t have to.
Hollingsworth
Okay, and, um, did your dad influence that decision at all?
Sturm
Nope.
Hollingsworth
Since he was from the Air Force?
Sturm
Nope.
Hollingsworth
Okay, but how did they react when you decided to enlist—your family?
Sturm
Well, my dad being a veteran, um, I—I think they were happy about it. Of course, you know, they’re concerned. You know, a parent—a, uh—a child going in the military is always a concern to the parent, but, um, I think that they were, um—I think that they were happy about it, uh, for the exact reason that it turned out, as the military, uh, um, helps you mature a lot, and you—you grow up—you grow up pretty quick.
Hollingsworth
Okay, and, uh, what do you remember most—what do you most remember about basic training?
Sturm
Um, boy, was it cold [laughs]. I went in—I was in, uh—uh, I went in November—November 9th[, 1983]. So, uh—so basic training was eight weeks, although we got, uh, Christmas exodus. So we got—I think we were out for like two weeks over Christmas, Which was very shocking to me, but, um—but it was cold. It was cold. Yeah.
Hollingsworth
And why was it cold? Where were you?
Sturm
Well, it was Fort Jackson[, Columbia], South Carolina, and, um, I did, uh, uh—I did both basic and, uh, AIT [Advanced Individual Training], uh, at Fort Jackson, uh, South Carolina. So I was there from November until probably about March [1984], I guess it would be, and, uh, you know, after I—after I went on from that, you know, I was—I was in Germany. You’ll probably be getting to that, but I was in Germany, uh, and we’d go to the field in the snow and all that kind of stuff, but the coldest day I’ve ever spent in my life was at Fort Jackson, South Carolina, um, out on the artillery range.
Hollingsworth
Did you receive any advanced training?
Sturm
Uh, well, just from my job. Ju—just from my job. I—I had wanted to, um—I wanted to go into [Army] Special Forces. Uh, and, uh, kinda—I—I ran into a lot of red tape, uh, start—starting with the fact that, if I had gone that route, I wouldn’t have been able to enlist for another year, and I really couldn’t wait that long, so I went in hoping that I would get in that route. Um, Things didn’t work out like that, but, uh, um, so I just—the—the, uh—really, the only advanced training I had was from my job.
Hollingsworth
Can you tell me more about your job?
Sturm
Um, I was in logistics. I was in supply, and, um, uh, so, you know, again, I took that at—at Fort Jackson, and, uh, one of the things that I—I learned about that in there is when you watch this—particularly like the old World War II movies—uh, you know, you see the stereotypical Supply Sergeant, you know, with the hat cocked back and the little, you know…
Hollingsworth
[laughs].
Sturm
Cigar sticking out of their mouth[sic]. Um, and that’s not—that’s not the way it is. Um, and, especially these days, ‘cause, with computers, they have everything really, uh, locked down. Back then, uh, you could still do some wheeling and dealing, because things weren’t as, uh—as accountable as they are now. When I say “things,” I mean the supplies themselves. It wasn’t as easy to account for them then, but one of the things that—that, uh—that surprised me about that job is: eh, we took the, um—we took the, uh, combat role—not that we saw any combat—but we took that very seriously, because if you think about it, when the enemy attacks, what’s one of the first things they attack? It’s the supply line. So, go—you know, going into supplies sounds like, you know, I guess, wheel and deal…
Hollingsworth
[laughs].
Sturm
And smoke cigars, but it’s actually a little more—a little more serious than that. So…
Hollingsworth
And, uh, what was it like going overseas? You mentioned Germany earlier.
Sturm
Yeah, yeah, and that was my—that was my first time overseas. Um, you know, again, I was 20 years old, at the time, uh, uh, but it was—it was a little overwhelming, and, uh, I remember, uh—I remember when I first got there, uh, I flew into Frankfurt[, Hesse, Germany], and I was stationed about two hours south of Frankfurt. So I think—I think there were about a half dozen of us or so that were in the van. Um, and as we made our way down there, they’d drop off one by one, and, of course, I was the last one.
But, um, when—when he dropped me off—I’ll—I’ll never forget—When he dropped me off at my duty post, it was just a small air base. So you could walk from the front gate to the back gate in about five minutes, and, um, when he dropped me off, it was an overcast day, cold, and I had no idea where to go, and he spoke no English whatsoever [laughs]. So all he could do was point to this building, and, uh, so I walked in the building and just kind of found my way from there, but, um, uh, that was my initial, uh—initial experience going overseas. Uh, going overseas, uh, in some ways, really formed, uh, a lot of the values that I have today. So I don’t know how in depth, uh, you meant that question to be.
Hollingsworth
No, that’s okay.
Sturm
Yeah.
Hollingsworth
Tell me more about it.
Sturm
Yeah, um…
Hollingsworth
How it impacts you today.
Sturm
Well, you know, it was a completely different culture, you know? And I—I had, uh—I had never experienced anything like that before. Um, I remember when we were, uh, in process. Because when—when you get in country, uh, for, um—I think we went through two weeks of, um, kind of an indoctrination on the German culture, you know? And again, at that time, it was East [Germany] and West Germany. So we were in, we were—we were in West Germany.
Um, [laughs] they—they would actually hire a local. Uh, it was a German, uh—a Germany lady that came in, and she was just, you know, teaching us basic German phrases and things like that. Um, the very first thing she taught us was “Ein bier, bitte.” So “one beer, please,” of course, but one—one of the first things that really jumped out at me about being overseas was, uh, one of the military personnel’s telling us, uh, um, basically, to, uh, uh, be good boys while we were over there, because at—I don’t know if it’s still this way—but, at the time, there was no such thing as police brutality.
Hollingsworth
Oh.
Sturm
So, uh, you know—so the polizei tell you to do something, you do it, ‘cause there is no police brutality over there [laughs].
Hollingsworth
So, um, could you tell me more about what you did in Germany?
Sturm
Uh, well, that’s when I was with the 210th Field Artillery Brigade. Um, I was working in the, uh—working in the, uh, supply area over there. So, um, We were stationed—I was stationed at a little place called Herzo Base, which is near Herz—Herzogenaurach[, Bavaria], Germany, which is near Nuremberg, which is where they had the war trials, uh—The German war trials. [2] Um, uh, and the air base that I was at was actually an old Luftwaffe, uh, base, and it was right on the hilltop, uh, and where we were stationed, uh, as it was told to me—it’s a pretty interesting story, because, you know, obviously, there’s a[sic] air field out there, but apparently, during World War II, it was a secret air base. So what they would do is: they would, uh—when they weren’t, uh, using it, they would flood the field. So from the air, it would just look like a lake, and then when they—when they wanted to, uh—when they wanted to, uh, use it, then they would drain it, of course, and take off, and land, and do whatever it is that they needed to do. Uh, but the one thing that was kind of, uh, eerie over there was that, um: we had, uh, lots of underground passages, and they were all padlocked shut, and, uh, the rumor was—I don’t—I don’t know if it was true or not—but the, uh—the rumor was that there was, um—actually, in some of them, uh, supposedly, there were some old World War II planes down there, but, uh, they were concerned that some things had been booby-trapped, so apparently, the—all of that was flooded.
Hollingsworth
Hm.
Sturm
And, uh, of course, we, uh—we never went down there, but, um—but, like I say, I was there—I was there for 18 months, Uh, um, in the uh Headquarters. It’s called “Headquarters [and] Headquarters Battery.”
Hollingsworth
Um, I read in your biographical data sheet that you would go on alert and get ready for battle. What was that like?
Sturm
Yeah, yeah, and that was something, uh—yeah. At that time, um, one-fifth of the entire Army was stationed in Germany. Um, and alerts were something that we did take seriously over there, and, um, uh, when we, uh—when we went on alert, then, within about two hours, uh, we had to be ready to go. So we were—where I was stationed, I believe it was—I believe we were only about like two hours from the Czech [Republic] border, um, but yeah. When we went on alert, we would have to be, uh, ready to go, and being in supply, we were in charge of all the, uh—all of the, uh, weapons. So we had to first issue everybody their weapons, and then all of the ammunition and everything. We had to pack up in the trucks, um, and be ready to go, and we went on alert probably about once a month or so. Sometimes, we would actually pull out and go somewhere, and sometimes it would just be a drill. We’d load up the trucks and then unload them, but yeah. That was something we took seriously over there.
Hollingsworth
Um, what do you remember most about your service in Germany?
Sturm
Um, [sniffs], uh, a couple of things. One, uh—speaking of alerts, one was: we, uh—we had an incident—I believe it was with Libya—where we shot down a couple of, uh, Libyan jets. Um, and when that happened, everybody across the—across the globe went on—went on alert. So I remember that, and also, about a month before I left, there was a terrorist attack at the Frankfurt Airport.
Hollingsworth
Hm.
Sturm
And, uh, they bombed the, uh—they bombed the Frankfurt Airport. Um, so, uh, uh, that and like, say, the alerts, and, uh, some concerts that I saw over there. I —n fact, I saw the very last concert of Van Halen with, uh, David Lee Roth.
Hollingsworth
Oh [inaudible].
Sturm
That was their 1984—their 1984 tour [laughs].
Hollingsworth
Yeah[?]. Wow[?], that’s very lucky.
Sturm
Yep, I saw them [coughs].
Hollingsworth
How did you keep in contact with people back at home, while you were in Germany?
Sturm
Yeah, that’s not like it is today.
Hollingsworth
Mmhmm.
Sturm
I mean, that was, um—it was either mail or phone calls. Um, the mail would take probably a week, and I had a girlfriend back here, at the time, um, and, uh, uh, mail would take about a week, and phone calls were hard, because the only option really, um, was the payphone. So you had to really [inaudible]. I had to write, you know, and say “Hey. Next Sunday I’ll call you at three o’clock.” [laughs], and, uh, that’s pretty much, uh,—that’s pretty much, uh, how the communication went, so it was, uh—it was, uh, difficult. I did, uh—when I was in Germany, I did, uh, come home for a month on leave from over there, and that was actually part of the reason why.
Hollingsworth
Hm.
Sturm
But—yeah.
Hollingsworth
Um, could you tell me about a typical day in Germany for you?
Sturm
Um, yeah, we’d get up, and, uh, you know—by the way, you were asking me about one of the, uh—one of my memories from Germany. Um, I was a Florida boy, so that was the first time I’d seen snow.
Hollingsworth
Mmhmm.
Sturm
And, um, what I—I—I remember two things about that. One was, um, uh, much to my surprise, it’s actually warmer when it snows…
Hollingsworth
Mmhmm.
Sturm
Than when it doesn’t snow, and that was very surprising to me, ‘cause the coldest days over there was when it didn’t snow at all, but, um, another time, uh—another time, uh, uh, I was walking from—from supply—from where I worked over to the mess hall for lunch, which was only about, uh—I don’t know—about maybe 400 feet or—well, it was probably longer—probably about 200 yards. You know, it wasn’t that far away, but it was cold that day and I had on—I had on everything I owned
Hollingsworth
[laughs].
Sturm
And by the time I got there, I was ready to get inside, but, um, uh, those were—those were two things, uh, that I remember from over there, but, typical day: we’d get up, um, we would have, um, uh, uh—we’d have PT—physical training—at six o’clock. So that’d be our—be our morning formation, uh, make sure everybody was there. Uh, we’d do our—we’d do our exercises, Go for a run, so forth and so on. Uh, and then come back, uh, go get something to eat, and then our next formation was at 8:30 or 8:45. Um, so we’d get our, you know, briefing for the day. Whatever it is that we were going to do, um, and then we’d go to work, uh, um, which, usually, at least one day a week for us involved going on a supply run down to Nuremberg. So I learned how to—how to drive a truck, how to back up a truck with just two side mirrors and towing a trailer.
Hollingsworth
[laughs].
Sturm
In a deuce and a half truck. Um, so, you know, we’d—we’d work all day, and then, uh, we’d have our, um, uh, evening formation. We’d have it about 5:45, and then they would lower the flag at five, and, uh, that was a—that was a typical day.
Hollingsworth
The whole[?] day?
Sturm
Mmhmm.
Hollingsworth
Um, could you tell me how—how you became a Sergeant?
Sturm
Uh, well, I had some college when I went in, in the first place. Like I said, I was only in for three years, so when I enlisted, I was already a, uh, PFC [Private First Class]. So I—I went in as an E[nlisted Rank]-3.
Hollingsworth
Okay.
Sturm
Um, when I—after—After basic and AIT, when I was sent, uh, uh, to Germany, uh, as soon as I got there, the Sergeant, uh, immediately put me in for promotion to E4, uh—Spec[ialist] 4. So I was, uh—I don’t recall how long it took for that to go through. Probably a month or two. So I had a head start, because I had had some college.
Hollingsworth
Oh.
Sturm
So they, uh—um, when I was back here at Fort Stewart, uh, for my last year, uh, they promoted me to Sergeant about six months before I got out.
Hollingsworth
[inaudible].
Sturm
I think part of that—yeah. I think part of that plan was to try to get me to, uh, reenlist.
Hollingsworth
[inaudible] [laughs].
Sturm
Which—yeah. It didn’t work.
Hollingsworth
They do that.
Sturm
[laughs].
Hollingsworth
Um, what did you do as a Sergeant?
Sturm
Um, well, then, Uh, I—as a, um—as a private and as a specialist, you pulled a lot you know—you pulled a lot. You pulled the guard duty stuff, you pulled the, you know—the KP [kitchen patrol], uh, that kind of stuff. When I became a Sergeant, um, then I was on the other side of that. so I was, you know, instead of—instead of being on the guard duty, I’d, you know—once a month or so, I’d be the NCO [non-commissioned officer] in charge at the barracks, ‘cause—‘cause, at night, at five o’clock, when everybody gets off, um, you had to have a, uh, Sergeant and a, uh—and a, uh, non-NCO that[sic] would be on duty for the whole night, you know, in case something happened. So, uh, then I became more in the management…
Hollingsworth
Oh.
Sturm
I guess you could say. Yeah. With, uh, zero leadership training, at the time [laughs].
Hollingsworth
Did that change overtime? Did you develop some sort of leadership, after a while?
Sturm
Well, I—it was only six months. Like I said, I was promoted six months before I’d got out. So, um—yeah. You know, I learned a few things, But, uh, really the, eh—not ‘til later. Not ‘til after I got out and I reflected on, um,—I—I don’t want to say mistakes that I’ve made—just, um, inexperience, you know? And, uh, reflecting on them later is when they really paid dividends, but yeah. I really didn’t have enough time left in my enlistment to, uh…
Hollingsworth
Okay.
Sturm
Learn a lot of lessons. Although, they did—they did—they tried to, uh, get me to reenlist to go to Warrant Officer [Candidate] School.
Hollingsworth
Interesting[?].
Sturm
Yeah.
Hollingsworth
And, um, you said no. Why?
Sturm
Uh, well, first of all, I had never, um—I, you know—I had never intended on making the military a career. Um, but also, you know, I was in a—in a, uh—in a really tough time, because I was in from 1983 to 1986. Um, and that was just, Uh, you know—that was just—what? Ten years after the end of the draft and eight years after the end of Vietnam [War], and I guess it would be three years after the failed, um, Iran hostage rescue.[3] So, you know, when I was in, you know, the, um, you know—the military was really beaten down. The, uh, bu—uh, a lot of the equipment we had was left over from Vietnam. Um, a lot of the good soldiers—particularly in the NCO ranks—a lot of the good soldiers, uh, had retired after Vietnam, and right in the, uh—at the end of the [19]70s, um, uh, you know, Cart—during the [James “Jimmy” Earl] Carter[, Jr.] administration, the—the—the defense budget had really been cut to almost nothing, you know? So the equipment wasn’t being updated, uh, you know, because of the budget cuts. The good soldiers were getting out. You know, they weren’t reenlisting. They weren’t able to attract good, uh, recruits, but then, you know, when [Ronald Wilson] Reagan came in in ‘80, he spent basically all of the ‘80s building all of this back up.
Hollingsworth
Mmhmm.
Sturm
Um, but I was in kind of at the beginning of that, and, you know, in retrospect, I—I, you know—again, at 20 years old, I didn’t really understand this, at the time, but, um, you know, in retrospect, uh, what he was doing was he was putting a lot of his, uh—a lot of the, uh, defense budget money—particularly in the early years—into modernizing the equipment. You know…
Hollingsworth
Mmhmm.
Sturm
The Stealth Bomber,[4] the [M1] Abrams Tank, that kind of stuff. Um, so it wasn’t really going into training yet.
Hollingsworth
Right.
Sturm
And that didn’t really kick in, until later in the ‘80s, and, uh, it paid dividends, as we saw in [Operation] Desert Storm, you know, in—in ‘91—I guess it was—Or 1990—‘91.[5] Whatever that was. Uh, it paid dividends then. Um, So I just—I—I didn’t, um—uh, I didn’t, you know—I wanted to go in. Um, I—I wanted to, uh, you know, experience the lifestyle. I, you know—I—I had—I had, uh, um, you know, admired what the—what the American soldier stood for, you know? And I wanted to go and experience that, but I never intended on making it a career, and when I got in there, um, you know, we weren’t—we weren’t really doing a whole heck of a lot of training, at that time. So I just wanted to get out and move on.
Hollingsworth
Yeah.
Sturm
So…
Hollingsworth
Uh, so what did you do when you came back to Orlando?
Sturm
Um, I went back to school.
Hollingsworth
Okay.
Sturm
Yeah, I had had some, uh—uh, I had, uh, um, almost two years of college before I went in. Uh, I came back. I finished, uh—finished up my AA [Associate of Arts], um, and then got the Bachelor’s, uh got the CPA, uh, and, you know, so forth and so on.
Hollingsworth
And, um, did you do any service in Orlando? Or was it straight from Germany back to—you were done, after Germany?
Sturm
No, no, after Germany—I spent, uh, 18 months in Germany.
Hollingsworth
Right.
Sturm
A year and a half in Germany, and then, I was sent to Fort Stewart, Georgia, for my last year. So I spent my last year…
Hollingsworth
Okay.
Sturm
In Fort Stewart, Georgia, um, which is where I was with the 24th Infantry Division.
Hollingsworth
Can you tell me more about…
Sturm
Yeah.
Hollingsworth
[inaudible].
Sturm
That would be [laughs]—yeah. Um, yeah. If I’d have known how good I had it in Germany…
Hollingsworth
[laughs].
Sturm
I would have stayed there [laughs], because, uh, the—one of—one of the things that I didn’t appreciate is that, over in Germany, um, you know, we all wanted to travel, You know, which—by the way, is[sic] some other memories I have of Germany—is doing something with traveling over there. Um, but, you know, we all wanted to travel, including the Officers, you know?
Hollingsworth
Mmhmm.
Sturm
So they wanted to get off on a Friday and, you know—and go travel, as well. Well, at Fort Stewart, Georgia, there’s not really a whole heck of a lot to see. So, uh, there wasn’t—wasn’t much to do, except sit on post and work [laughs], but, uh—but the thing about it: I was with the 24th Infantry—and this was actually, um, I believe, part of, uh, Reagan’s, uh modernization—is we were actually a rapid deployment force there.
Hollingsworth
Okay.
Sturm
So we were, uh—we were, um, uh, trained so that, within two hours’ notice, uh, we could go anywhere in the world, uh, and be there within 24 hours, and ready to go. Um, one of the things that we did, uh—eh, even though there wasn’t a lot of training going on, at that time—One of the things we did do, um, was, every year, the unit would go out into the, uh, [Fort Irwin & the] National Training Center, out in the, uh, Mojave Desert and, uh, do desert training, which, uh, came into play in, uh, Oper—in, uh, Desert Storm.
Hollingsworth
Okay.
Sturm
Because, uh, when that kicked off, of course, in the deserts of, uh, Iraq and Kuwait, uh, the 24th Infantry Division—my old unit—was, uh—played a—played a pretty key role in that, uh—in that, uh, campaign. Uh, be—Again, because we had—we—we—we’d get a desert, every year. In fact, uh, when—the year I was in with them, we went to the Mojave, but the year before that, uh, they actually went to the Sahara Desert and trained for a month over there.
Hollingsworth
Were you happy you didn’t have to go anywhere near there?
Sturm
Yes.
Hollingsworth
[laughs].
Sturm
Yeah. I felt bad, uh…
Hollingsworth
[inaudible].
Sturm
When—when we were in the—when we were in the Mojave, we were there from mid-July to mid-August.
Hollingsworth
Mmhmm.
Sturm
And, uh, unlike being cold in Germany, it was hot.
Hollingsworth
Oh[?].
Sturm
Out there, and, uh, I really felt and I have a lot of respect for the soldiers, uh, in the, uh—in Desert Storm. Because, uh, they were, you know—that kicked off in January[, 17, 1991], and I—I can’t help but think that there was—the time of that was the cooler weather, but I remember seeing on TV. I remember seeing, uh, video of them training in the summer, and ‘cause one of the things they were worried about was the, uh—was gas attacks.
Hollingsworth
Mmhmm.
Sturm
And I remember seeing them in the summer, running around in the middle of the desert in full chemical suits, and I don’t know that I could have done that in my best day. I have a lot of respect for those guys, because we used wear those chemical suits. They have, uh, charcoal in them, and, um, uh, we used to wear those thing to stay warm in snow, and they were running around in those things in the summer, over in, uh—over in Kuwait, getting ready for that, and, uh—I don’t—I don’t—I do not know how they did it. So yes. I’m glad I—I’m glad I was not part of that [laughs].
Hollingsworth
[laughs] And, um, Between Germany and your service in Georgia and South Carolina, what was your, uh, most—most—most memorable about your time in the service? [sniffs].
Sturm
Oh, my gosh. Um, I think the comradery, as—as cliché as that may sound.
Hollingsworth
No.
Sturm
It’s actually very true, because, uh, you know, especially in your training—and particularly, in basic and AIT—you know, there’s kind of an us-against-them, you know, mentality, because, you know, they’re, you know—part of basic training, uh, you know, as they tell you—which is true—is, you know, they gotta break you down to build you up, you know?
Hollingsworth
Mmhmm.
Sturm So, um, you know—so we were, you know—we were really banding together to survive, uh—to survive that, and then, you know, even in the units, uh, you know, you build up a comradery with, uh—with, you know, your friends, and they’re the people you work with, Um, and, uh, you know, which carries over into going out at night, you know?
Hollingsworth
Mmhmm.
Sturm You know, uh, Going out, you know, and, uh, doing your thing, but when you’re, you know—when you’re going out with, uh, you know, 12 brothers, you know, and you would trust any of them with your life, um, that’s—that’s, uh—That’s a rare connection, and that’s what—that’s what I miss the most and that’s—that—and that’s what I remember. That’s what I remember the most.
Hollingsworth
Mmhmm. You remember the people.
Sturm
Yeah, yeah. Like I say, uh—like I say, the, uh—comradery.
Hollingsworth
Ah [laughs].
Sturm
Yeah.
Hollingsworth
Um, what did you do during your free time?
Sturm
Um, well…
Hollingsworth
Travel?
Sturm
Did some—no. I did some growing up.
Hollingsworth
Ah.
Sturm
I did some growing up. I, um—‘cause I was, uh—when I went in, you know, I was in my party phase.
Hollingsworth
Mmhmm.
Sturm
And, uh, you know, especially, when I hit[?] to Germany. Uh, Oktoberfest [laughs], uh “Ein bier, bitte?” Uh…
Hollingsworth
[laughs].
Sturm
You know, that whole thing. Um, my first—my first six months in Germany, when I wasn’t, uh—when I wasn’t working, I was, uh, trying to sample every beer that, uh, Germany ever made.
Hollingsworth
[laughs].
Sturm
Um, and after about six months, you know, I—I woke up, uh—I woke up one day, and realized that I had been there six months, and I had nothing to show for it, you know? And about that same time—I’d, uh—I’d—I had been a musician my whole life—and about that time, I kinda was, uh, re—uh, uh, re-interested in music, and, um, I actually, uh, started, uh—started playing music again. So I started—I kinda[?]—I really, you know—I quit the partying, um, and I would spend a lot of time playing music. In fact, uh, the first band I ever played in my life was over there
Hollingsworth
Okay.
Sturm
Was over there,in German, Which would be—qualify as another memory from over there [laughs]. Um, uh, But I—but that’s what I did. I kinda, you know, like I said, grew up a little bit, uh, got over the partying thing, and started, uh, laying the groundwork for the future.
Hollingsworth
There you go, and, um, when you came back—right when your service ended—what was it like?
Sturm
Uh, it was a tremendous sense of freedom.
Hollingsworth
[laughs]. I bet.
Sturm
Uh, well, you know, when you’re a soldier, uh, the government owns you 24-7, 365, and, um, uh, you know, when, you know, we—Up in Fort Stewart—and Germany, for that matter, but, uh—you know, in Fort Stewart, uh, you know, we’d go to the field a month at a time, so you—I mean, you’re there for a month, you know? Um, and it—It was the freedom getting out, and, uh, you know, I was—I was used to, you know—for three years, I had—I had woken up every morning at 5:30 or so, and exercised at six, and, uh, I, you know—I was determined to continue doing that, which lasted about two weeks [laughs].
Hollingsworth
[laughs].
Sturm
But, uh, big, big, big sense of freedom
Hollingsworth
Ah.
Sturm
Yep.
Hollingsworth
And [inaudible].
Sturm
And pride.
Hollingsworth
[inaudible].
Sturm
Oh, yeah. I was proud of what I did, um, Even though, you know, at that time, uh, you know—at that time, we really weren’t heralded, uh, as heroes, like the soldiers are now, and rightfully so, ‘cause like, you know—like I say, it was, you know—it was only about 10 years after Vietnam
Hollingsworth
Mmhmm.
Sturm
And everybody was kind of over the military. They—they were—they were tired of hearing about it, and they really, you know—They just really didn’t want to have anything to do with it. Yep.
Hollingsworth
Oh. When you left the military, did you—I know you went back and did your education—but did you work at all, while you were doing that? Or did you just go straight into school?
Sturm
Uh, no, ‘cause I got out, uh—I got out in November, so I got out November 8th[, 1989], um, and I enrolled for the, uh—for the spring semester the following January [1990].
Hollingsworth
Okay.
Sturm
Um, so yeah. I did, you know—I did work, but my main focus was on school.
Hollingsworth
School?
Sturm
Yeah, and that was—that was part of the growing up—‘cause that’s part of the growing up in the military, but also, when I was in, I—I had the, um—I had the, uh, v[eterans’] benefits, which was the—the successor to the G.I. Bill.[6] So I actually, um—I actually earned college money…
Hollingsworth
Oh.
Sturm
That, uh—while I was in there—while I was there. Yeah. When—when I was in Germany, I tried to take a college class over there. That didn’t work out too well.
Hollingsworth
Right[?].
Sturm
But—no. So when—when I got out, I was—I was, uh—I was pretty head strong on going back to finishing school.
Hollingsworth
That’s good.
Sturm
Yeah.
Hollingsworth
Um, did you keep in touch with any of the people you served with?
Sturm
I did not, until, um, uh, really, just a couple years ago, and it was, uh, primarily, uh, thanks to Facebook, but, um, I’ve, uh—I’ve actually only, uh—well, I take that back, because there was one guy down in Tampa. Uh, uh, my roommates in, uh—in, uh, Fort Stewart—one of them lived in Tampa, the other was from Virginia, and I did—right after I got out, I kept—kept in touch with them a little bit, but, um, I actually really didn’t keep in touch with anybody, until, uh, one of my best friends from Germany, um—we had a, uh—we had a reunion, uh—uh, I guess it was—eight—nine months ago. Him[sic] and his family were coming through town here to go on a cruise, and, uh, that was the first time I had seen him in, uh—in 20 years, and, uh—and, uh, we had a—we had a good chat about the—about those times, and It was interesting to me, becau—because, it was, you know—I had my perspective, but it was interesting to me to get someone else’s perspective on the same experiences, uh, from—from 20 years prior.
So—yeah, and I did—now that I think about it, I did, um—oh gosh. This was probably a good 10 years—No. it’s more than that. Probably a good 15 years ago, uh, My Sergeant from—from, uh—from Germany, uh,—I did go and see him. He was—he lived up in Atlanta[, Georgia], and I did go and see him one weekend, and, uh, it was—it was kinda—it was interesting, you know, because, when you’re, you know—when he’s your Sergeant, you have one relationship, But when you’re both civilians, you know, 20 years later, uh, you can talk a little more freely, I guess you could say, and he was a good guy. That was another, um—you’d asked me earlier about, uh, influences and memories and stuff, and he was—he was, uh—he was a big influence on me. Sergeant Jones—he was, uh—he was a big influence—Sergeant Wilson Jones. Uh, He was a, uh, big influence on me. He was one of the best bosses that[sic] I ever had in my life, and, uh, I learned a lot about, um—I learned a lot about initiative and perseverance, uh, from working under him. He was—he was a good guy, and he’s still alive, to my knowledge.
Hollingsworth
[laughs].
Sturm
To my knowledge, he is.
Hollingsworth
And, uh, so maturing, growing up, and, uh, Sergeant Jones. Was there anything else, with your time in the military, uh, service—or, military service, that influenced your life since leaving?
Sturm
Oh, gosh. Yeah, you know, uh, you know the—I learned the military changes ya, and, you know, whether it changes you for the good or the bad, I think it kind of depends on the individual, and the experiences that you have in there. Um, you know, Like I say, uh, I was fortunate enough, where we didn’t have any conflicts, um, going on, at the time. So, uh, you know, while—while I was standing on the wall, wolf—the wolf never came, and I’m happy about that.
But—no. The—the military changes you, and, you know, you—my maturation process, in that, you know, I learned a lot about, uh, you know, initiative, a lot about perseverance…
Hollingsworth
Mmhmm.
Sturm
Um, self-esteem. In fact, you know, uh, Sergeant Jones—I reminded him of this story: when I—when I saw him, uh—it’s probably been a good 15 years ago, but, um, uh, you know, one time—and again, you know, 20 year old kid, you know? I don’t remember what exactly the details were, but he had sent me back to the supply room to find something. You know, so I went back there, and I looked around, and I didn’t found[sic]—find it. So I came back, and told him—I said “Hey, Sergeant,” You know, “I couldn’t find it.” and he said “Well, then you didn’t look.” And I said, you know— I was like, “What are you talking about? I just—I just got back from there. I couldn’t find it.” He said “No, if you had looked, you would have found it. Now go back there and find it.” And He was right. You know, it was back there, I just didn’t look hard enough.
Hollingsworth
Mmhmm.
Sturm
And that, you know—that’s one of the—I, you know—I could sit here the rest of the day, telling stories like that, but, um, you know, that’s something that’s carried with me through—really, through today. Um, you know, when I was working, I remember a, uh—a colleague of mine, when I was earning my PhD—um, I was, uh, uh, uh, you know—PhD is a stressful, stressful thing to go through, and I was—something was going on, and I was wound up about it, and I remember him saying, you know, “Hey,” you know, “Don’t worry about it, ‘cause you’re a warrior,” You know? You’re—Even though this is going on now, you’ll still be okay, because—and That’s directly rooted back into—into my military experience, in that, you know—in that perse—that perseverance.
Hollingsworth
Mmhmm.
Sturm
Um, so—yeah. All sorts of, you know—all sorts of, uh, uh, values, um, you know, that I—that I learned, and, you know, some of them were good. Um, uh, some of them were good. You know, I saw some, uh—uh, some experiences—not—I saw some things that I—that set a bad example for me, uh, which served me well, because I didn’t want anything to do with that. You know, so—yeah. Lots of—lots of things.
Hollingsworth
So what advice would you give today’s military members?
Sturm
Um, phew. That’s a tough one, uh, you know, because we’ve got some conflicts going on in the world right now.
Hollingsworth
Mmhmm.
Sturm
Also, when you enlist right now, uh, it’s quite possible you might end up in a combat situation.
Hollingsworth
Mmhmm.
Sturm
Uh, so I would, you know—I—I would measure my words carefully, but, uh, you know, barring the combat part of it, um, you know, I would say—I would say to enjoy the time, and, uh—especially if you get sent overseas. Um, uh, uh, do some traveling. That was one regret that I have about my time in Germany is that I didn’t do a lot of traveling. We did some, uh, traveling. You know, Spain and France.
Hollingsworth
Mmhmm.
Sturm
We—we did some traveling, but, um, uh, I would like to have done a lot more traveling, in retrospect. Um, uh, and serve with honor. You know, that was One of the things that, uh—that attracted me to the military in the first place, uh—was, you know, uh, I saw examples of soldiers, and, they’re, you know—they’re people that[sic] are, um, uh, you know—that[sic] are serving something greater than themselves. You know, they’re making a sacrifice that’s not, uh, you know—they’re not just in there for self-serving reasons. They’re serving, you know, the freedom of the country, um, and, you know, again, that comradery. They’re just, you know—in short, they’re just something greater than—than themselves, and, you know, my advice would be, uh, to enjoy that, because, uh, it may end, when you get out of the, uh—when you get out of the military.
Hollingsworth
Alright. So, uh, what do you do in your free time now?
Sturm
Uh, surf [laughs].
Hollingsworth
You still surf?
Sturm
Yeah, yeah, I surf. I, you know, spend as much time with my daughter as I can.
Hollingsworth
Okay.
Sturm
Um, You know, still, uh—still working out. Uh, I have all sorts of hobbies. I like to cook. Uh, I fly radio-controlled airplanes. In fact, one of my recent hobbies—as of about two years ago, um—is, uh—is shooting. Uh, when I—When I went into the military, you know, I was a city boy.
Hollingsworth
Mmhmm.
Sturm
So I never grew up around guns or anything. Uh, And when I went in the military, uh, obviously, we shot. Uh, you know, I—I had, uh, a lot—we—we—I had some fun experiences on the range, shooting some, uh—some of the automatic weapons, and, uh, there was—there was a lot of those fun experiences in there, but I never really thought much about it, you know? It was just something we did.
Hollingsworth
Right.
Sturm
And when we went to the range, I always enjoyed it
Hollingsworth
Mmhmm.
Sturm
Uh,but I never really—never really thought much about it. So, when I got out, um, you know, I never owned a gun. I was never around a gun. I just never thought about it. About probably three years ago now, a friend of mine, um, who was into guns, you know, said “Hey. You wanna come out to the range with me one day?” And I said, “Alright. Yeah. I haven’t shot, you know, in 25 years”—or however long it’s been. So I went out with him, and, uh, you know, what I was trained on was the M16 [rifle].
Hollingsworth
Mmhmm.
Sturm
And the civilian version of that is AR-15.
Hollingsworth
Mmhmm.
Sturm
So he had an AR-15. Um, you know, when I went out—when I took basic training, it was cold—we went out on a cold day, and, uh, I went out there, and, uh, you know, he gave his AR-15, and I did all that I knew to do, which was, you know, the way that I was trained in the military. So, you know, I got down into my prone position on the ground, and, you know, I put about six rounds in about, you know—about an inch in the target, and was thinking, Man, maybe I missed my calling in life here.
Hollingsworth
Yeah.
Sturm
‘Cause I hadn’t shot, you know—I hadn’t even picked up a weapon in 25 years, but being out there in the cold, um, you know, and the smell of the gun powder when you shoot it, and then—and then, remembering how to shoot, uh, you know, was muscle memory, um, and it all came back to me, and that was a, uh—that was a pleasant memory, because I—I remembered, uh, you know, those—those were always good times in the military, going out in the range, and that’s actually become, uh, one of my hobbies.
Hollingsworth
Oh.
Sturm
So, you know, I own—I own several guns now. We go out—we go out shooting, about every Saturday morning, uh, on the range. Um, and that’s, uh—that’s a—that’s kinda reminiscing
Hollingsworth
Yeah.
Sturm
Over the, uh, uh—from the, uh—from the military days, but…
Hollingsworth
Do you ever take your daughter with you?
Sturm
Uh, I took her once. She’s, uh—she’s not real, uh, uh, interested in guns, But I did, uh—I did take her out there once, just to show her that there was nothing to be scared of. Um, so, you know, she’s not—she’s not scared of them, but she respects them and stays away from them [laughs].
Hollingsworth
[inaudible].
Sturm
Yeah.
Hollingsworth
Um, is there anything else you would like to talk about?
Sturm
Uh, oh, my gosh. Um, [sighs] probably—I mean, uh, you know—I’m—I’m—I’m glad I went in. I mean, it—Like I say, it really shaped a lot of the values that I have, uh, these days. Uh, And, you know, it—sometimes—sometimes that’s not always good, because, uh, you know, when I’m, uh—when I’m in, uh—when I’m in, uh, a task mode, then I kind of have a flashback, you know, to the—to the military days, Like with, you know—like with Sergeant Jones. Like, hey, if you got something to do, get it done.
Hollingsworth
Mmhmm.
Sturm
You know, I don’t want to hear any excuses. Get it done, but, um, no. I was—I was glad I went in. I did, uh—I did a lot of growing up, when I was in there, and, you know, uh, like I said, before I went in, I was not a student. Uh, when I came out, I was a student, and, uh, my—my GPA [grade point average], uh—I don’t know remember exactly what it was—but I got very few grades less than a[sic]—less than an A, uh, when I came out.
So, uh—so no. It was a—it was a good experience. Um, I’m glad I did it. Uh, you know, I respect the, uh—the guys that are going in now, and women—the people that are going in, uh, now, because you gotta—now, um, you know—I—I haven’t looked at the enlistment standards. I’ve never compared them across time, but I, you know—I think you’ve got to be smarter to go in now, because they have all this high-tech equipment…
Hollingsworth
Mmhmm.
Sturm
Um, and they’re doing things now that we didn’t do, uh—that we didn’t do back then. So I really—I really have a lot of respect for the people going in these days. In addition to the fact that, when you go in now, you may wind [yawns] —you may wind up in a combat zone very easily, in the middle of the desert somewhere. Well, um—so yeah. I could, uh—I could, uh—I could probably sit here all afternoon…
Hollingsworth
[laughs].
Sturm
If you gave me the opportunity, but I don’t think you have enough tape to do that [laughs].
Hollingsworth
Hm, alright. Well, thank you very much, Dr. Sturm…
Sturm
You’re welcome.
Hollingsworth
For your time. It was an honor to be able to interview you
Sturm
My pleasure.
Hollingsworth
And I very much appreciate you for your time and service.
Sturm
I…
Hollingsworth
Veterans’ Day just passed. So we’ll be in touch again, and we’ll have a copy of your interview for you.
Sturm
Okay. [inaudible].
Hollingsworth
And I’ll bring it to you on the [UCF] Lake Mary campus…
Sturm
Very good.
Hollingsworth
Because I want to see it.
Sturm
Oh, okay. Very good.
Hollingsworth
That’s it.
Sturm
Very good.
Unidentified
42 minutes.
Sturm
Yeah. There are probably more things I could have thought up. I didn’t know how much tape I…
Hill
Today is March 6th, 2014. I’m interviewing Mike Partain, who served in the United States Navy. My name is Amanda Hill, and with me is [Carolyn] “Carli” Van Zandt running the camera. We are interviewing today Mr. [laughs] Mike Partain, as part of UCF [University of Central Florida] Community Veterans History Project and as research for the creation of the Lone Sailor Memorial Project. We are recording this interview at Mike’s home in Orlando, Florida.
Hill
Mr. Partain, will you please start off by telling us, uh, where and when you were born?
Partain
I was born at, uh, Camp Lejeune Marine Corps Base in North Carolina in January of 1968.
Hill
So your parents were in the service?
Partain
And[?] my father was a [United States] Naval Academy graduate and a Marine Officer.
Hill
In North Carolina?
Partain
Uh, yeah, he served in the Marine Corps, uh, in North Carolina.
Hill
And so what did your mom do for a living?
Partain
Uh, my mother was a housewife. Uh, she’s a French Canadian from the providence of Quebec[, Canada], and they met when he was, uh, in the training crews at the Naval Academy.
Hill
Do you have any brothers or sisters?
Partain
I have one sister, uh, born in Bethesda Naval Hospital[1] in 1970.
Hill
And growing up, where did you go to school?
Partain
Uh, well, after my father, uh, resigned his commission from the Marine Corps, we moved to, uh, Central Florida—Polk County.
Hill
How old were you when he resigned?
Partain
Uh, four years old.
Hill
So you moved here pretty early?
Partain
Yeah, I’ve been here pretty much all my life. This is—this is home. Uh, Camp Lejeune’s pretty much just a name on a birth certificate.
Hill
Were your par—were your—was your father involved in the Navy—the Navy at all when he moved here?
Partain
No, no. He was out of the service by then.
Hill
Okay. So what did you do before you entered the Navy?
Partain
Um, I was a college student. Uh, went to Florida State University for my first year of college and, um, didn’t do too well my first year, and when my father got my report card, uh, he informed me that I was on my own.
Hill
[laughs] Okay.
Partain
That’s why I joined the Navy.
Hill
So that’s why you joined the Navy.
Partain
Yeah.
Hill
Alright. So how old were you at that time?
Partain
Uh, I was 19.
Hill
19. So why the Navy? What…
Partain
Well, the—we’re a military family. My grandfather had, uh, served in the Marine Corps. Um, my father was in the Naval Academy and graduated 1966, and, uh, served in the Marine Corps of his commission. So going to the Navy was an opportunity. I, uh, saw a lot of different opportunities I can do in the Navy—pay for my education. That was my main thing was to get my college paid for, since, uh, I didn’t do too well my first year.
Hill
What were you looking to study?
Partain
Um, actually, I went in to the Tampa MET [Military Entrance Test] center[2] for the, um, [clears throat]—for testing and did the ASVAB [Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery] test—scored very well—and they pulled me aside and asked me if I would take the nuc—nuclear test for Nuclear Propulsion School in the Navy, which I did and scored, uh, very high on that. High enough that the commanding officer of the MET center came to me and asked if I would sign an enlistment contract right away, and I said, “No,” and that I was—that I wanted to think about it first, because I wasn’t totally sure that I wanted to go into the military, and I made the mistake of mentioning my father being, uh—was a Naval Academy graduate, and he ended up calling my father, and, uh, the two of them got together, uh, and I didn’t have a chance. I ended up signing my enlistment contract about an hour later.
Hill
Wow, so pretty easy decision?
Partain
Uh, yeah, it was. I mean I delayed my enlistment. This was in April 1987, when I was still, um—actually, uh, I had just got home from college and, um, I delayed my enlistment until January of 1988.
Hill
Why delay?
Partain
Just wanted to go in the winter months. I—I don’t like the summer. So I didn’t want to run around in the summer and do PT [physical training] in the summertime.
Hill
Makes sense.
Partain
[coughs].
Hill
So where did you attend boot camp?
Partain
Well, I joined the Navy to go see the world, and I ended up travelling about 45 miles north of where I lived and grew up in Orlando, Florida, at the Orlando Naval Training Center.
Hill
[laughs] Right. Were you, uh, looking to be trained then in a specific career at that point or were they looking to train you in a specific career?
Partain
Yeah, I was accepted into the Nuclear Propulsion School for the Navy, and I had to complete my basic training and then A School after that, which were both, at that time—both housed at the Orlando Naval Training Center, uh, here in Orlando.
Hill
Can you tell me more about the nuclear propulsion?
Partain
Well, um, I didn’t get that far. Um, uh, basically, from my understanding with the school, once I completed, uh, basic, I was gonna go into A School at the Nu—uh, Nuclear Propulsion School, and—which, um, I—if I completed that, I did a six-year hitch as part of the contract, and if I completed the school, then I would have gone into the fleet as an E[nlisted Rank]-3, which would have been Petty Officer [sniffs].
Hill
Okay. So that specific school—what are they—what do they do?
Partain
Uh, they train the engineers to run the, uh, nuclear propulsion systems for the Navy’s aircraft carriers, uh, and sub—uh, submarines that are nuclear-powered, and it’s a promising career path. It opens up a lot of doors. It was very tough. Academically, it was a very stringent program. If you failed, uh, out of the program, then you went into the fleet and served the rest of your hitch [sniffs].
Hill
What—what were you hoping to do with that?
Partain
Um, it was going to be a skill for me. Um, Open the doors, uh, to—you know, to have a trade and, uh, also go to college. Uh, my plan was to finish college, once I graduated—uh, once I completed my hitch in the Navy, and then take the expertise I had learned in the Navy, along with a—hopefully, a degree in nuclear engineering, uh, and go work in a private industry.
Hill
Okay. So then—so you began your training at NTC [Naval Training Center Orlando] in January of 1988?
Partain
Yes.
Hill
Correct? Okay. So you were pretty familiar then with the region, right? [inaudible].
Partain
As far as Florida? Yes.
Hill
Yes, um, [laughs] so were you…
Partain
I joined the Navy and see world, and go right into my own back yard. So…
Hill
Right. Were you familiar with the Navy’s presence in Orlando already?
Partain
Yes, I mean, I—growing up here, you know, the—growing up in Florida, especially, uh, at my age, and when the—the telltale signs of World War II are still all over Florida. Uh, Most of your airports are former Army or Navy Train—, uh, naval, um—Sorry. Most of your airports are former Army or naval training centers for the pilots during World War II, like Sebring [Regional Airport]. Even McCoy [Air Force Base] airfield, which is now the [Orlando] International Airport, was a training field, uh, during World War II. So, you know, there’s always been a military presence in Florida.
Hill
How—do you remember how you found out about that presence?
Partain
As far as—I mean, growing up, I mean, you see the bases. Um, you got NASJAX [Naval Air Station Jacksonville] up in Orlando.[3] You got [Naval Station] Mayport—I mean, sorry—NASJAX up in Jacksonville, and you got Mayport. You got Patrick Air Force Base, McCoy Air—I mean, uh, MacDill Air Force Base in Tampa.
Um, as a child growing up, um, the flight path for the Air Force, uh, fighters, to do practice bombing over in, um, Avon Park Bomber Range,[4] went over our house. After—every afternoon, we’d see [General Dynamics] F-16s [Fighting Falconfly] fly over and practice in Avon Park, and they’d come back, and sometimes they’d fly low, and, you know, you’d always see the military around growing up here.
Hill
Why do you think the Navy chose to locate a recruit training center in Central Florida?
Partain
Um, no idea, to be honest with you [laughs]. Um, I know during, uh—when a lot of military bases were here in Florida, or located here in Florida, because of the climate here allowed training year round, especially with the flying conditions. So—but as far as the Navy’s base in Orlando and the training center, um, I have no idea why they, uh, located it here.
Hill
That’s fair. Uh, so how long were you at NTC Orlando?
Partain
Well, um, I arrived in January, uh,—I think it was January 2nd, 1988, and I went through the first part of basic training. I made it through about four weeks—almost my fifth week—into, uh, training at, uh, NTC Orlando, And I broke out in a rash. Um, One of the curious things is it was a rash that I was born with at Camp Lejeune. Um, and periodically through my life, whenever—like if I wore dry-cleaning clothes, or, thing—you know, was around chemicals and stuff, I’d break out. Well, I broke out in this rash, and they couldn’t figure out why or where it was coming from. Uh, because normally, I could control it, um, and it just didn’t want to go away.
So the Drill Instructor, [clears throat] um, sent me down to the infirmary—the—the naval hospital, and they held me there for, uh, about a week or so, and tried to figure out what was wrong. They finally came up and said that, uh, I was, uh—because of the rash, that I was going to be disqualified for my program…
Hill
Mmm.
Partain
Uh, in the Nuclear Power School.
Hill
Did they know what it was at that point?
Partain
No, uh, they just called it an “atopic dermatitis.” Uh, and they informed me that it made in ineligible to go to the Nuclear Power School. So I ended up, uh—they asked me if I wanted to stay in the fleet, but that meant chipping paint for the six years I was gonna be in the Navy. So I asked them to go ahead and send me home and, uh, end my enlistment at that point, which they, uh, gave me my uniform. I went home as an E3, so I dressed up in my Navy blues, and got my sea bag, and, uh, they sent me home, but, uh, [clears throat] the, um, wha—during that time that they told me I was going home to the time I went home, they put me in what they called a “medical hold company,” where it was—I was taken out of my training regimen, and then put into a, uh, barrack, where other people who had been medically disqualified—they kind of let us sit there for a while. It was about two weeks before they told me, uh, that I had my orders to go home, and that—that’s another—I’ll tell you about that later.
Hill
So what was it like when you found out that you had to leave the Navy?
Partain
Well, um, I mean, the—the, uh—it was a disappointment, because I really had looked forward into getting into the career. Um, I had volunteered to do submarine duty, which was an extra pay, and, um, you know, to me, this was going to be my livelihood. Something—a school and trade that I could pick up and, uh, um, learn, and spend—you know, be able to make a career for the rest of my life with. So I was kind of left with the, um, uh—you know, I ended up coming home, and having to refigure my life and what I was going to do, and I ended up, uh—actually I ended up going to work for [Walt] Disney World after that, and I worked at Disney World for three years while I put myself through college [clears throat].
Hill
So let’s back up a bit…
Partain
Mmhmm.
Hill
To when you first got to the—the base. Um, what were your first impressions?
Partain
Well, um, you know, it’s intimidating. I mean, you’re coming off civilian life, even though I grew up in a military—military family. Um, nothing prepares you for the shock of going into the world of, uh, you know—of—of the military. It’s a totally different experience.
Um, the first shock is your lose your individuality. Uh, and that was, uh—that was the hardest thing for me to get used to—is the fact that you had to assimilate yourself into their world and their program, and, um, you know, you lost the—the “me” part of yourself, for at least awhile.
Hill
Can you tell me more about that? What specifically caused those changes?
Partain
[clears throat] Well, I mean, the first thing they do—they bring you in and you line up. Um, you know, they issue you a uniform, um, and it’s an assembly line. You’re given, uh, you know, your boots, eh, and all your gear, and you have to stencil your name on the gear and, uh—and your sea bag, and, um, and then they, uh, shave all your hair off. Uh, they, uh, you know—just going through that is, eh—it’s more—like I said, it’s an assembly line type of impersonal, um—uh, the impersonal, um, process, because, I mean, you’re—you’re moved from one place to another and, you know, you gotta, uh—eh, you just get to feel like you’re a cow sometimes, um, and, uh the other, you know—the other thing is the—as you go in and you’re all wearing the same clothes, you all look the same.
So everybody is the same, and that’s what I mean by “lose your individuality,” and, uh, then, you know, once you get into the barracks that begins the training process, which one of the first things they start doing is breaking down the individual and starting to form a unit. Because, you know, everybody—when everyone’s acting individually, you know—you have your own routines and stuff like that, and one of the first things [laughs] I remember—I knew this was going to happen, uh, because my dad had warned me, but, uh, everyone settled down for the night, and one of the first memories—and it was funny, because it just totally, uh, unnerved me—was, uh, I think, at about three o’clock in the morning, uh, the, uh—the DI [Drill Instructor] came in and threw the trash can down the barrack hall, making all kinds of rackets and screaming, “Get on the line! Get on the line!” And, um, I remember getting—getting up and, um, getting on the line in front of the barracks, and, you know, we’re in our skivvies and socks, and I’m sitting there shaking, and, um, I’m thinking, you know, What the hell? What the hell have I done? Because I don’t like getting up at three o’clock in the morning.
Hill
[laughs].
Partain
I don’t think anybody really does, especially when someone’s screaming at you and throwing a—a metal trash can down the—down the barrack, uh, hallway, and if you don’t—the—the trash cans being metal, makes a hell of a lot of noise, especially in a barrack on a tile floor. So that was the—that was the first morning of recruit training, and, um, they had a lot of different things in store for us as we, uh, went through this process. So it was—some of it was humorous. Um, I knew the purpose of it, which was, you know, some people—some of the guys didn’t do well with it, but, you know, I kinda laughed with some of the stuff that they were doing.
Hill
So life in the barracks then—if everyone’s the same, how does that affect the group dynamic?
Partain
Well, I mean, you still have people that look out for themselves. That’s the big thing is, when you get people who just don’t—you know, they’re used to taking care of themselves and, um, not—not thinking as a community. Because the whole purpose of the training is to get you thinking beyond yourself, to work as a team, to work together.
Um, like one of the first things that happened, um, when we, you know—we had to march together and they had to form us together and started doing things, of course everyone’s going off in different directions. Um, and I remember one morning, we went out and did PT—running around. and, um, came back, and everything that everybody owned at the barracks, uh, including, uh, the mattresses, the actual bunk racks—everything was heaped up into this massive mountain in the middle of the barracks. and we all walked in and we’re just looking at this. You know, everything we had was in—in the middle of the barracks, and the, of course, the DI comes out screaming at us, you know, uh, “Get this shit together!” You know, “Get this place in order and get it squared up and you’ve got 15 minutes, and, I mean, eh, the—we all looked at each other like, What the hell? So everyone dove[sic] in and people were calling out names and, you know, “I’ve got such and such.” and we’re spreading[?] out trying to get the barracks back up, and of course, we didn’t do it in 15 minutes, which proceeded to have more pushups and things like that that we had to do, because of that. Uh, the—once we get it squared away, it happened again, and, uh, later on, when it happened again, we did get it done in 15 minutes.
Hill
Are there any other examples of training experiences that helped shaped your relationships with other recruits in your class?
Partain
Uh, well, just—I mean, everything that we did. I mean, from the marching, I remember, um—uh, I didn’t—I don’t’ keep my step very well, so I had a hard time learning how to keep in step, and, uh, the guy next to me was trying to show me how to skip to keep back, you know—to get myself back into step. For some reason, I have no rhythm. So I just—I was just constantly out of step, and I would try to march on the outside, um—on the edge of the sidewalk, so that that way I wouldn’t be seen as much, but never failed. I always got called out for that, but one of the other things they had, uh—one morning, we had inspection and they called in all the, uh, company commanders.
The DIs came in and proceeded to rip the place apart, uh, while we’re standing there on the line. and they would come up to each recruit—and it didn’t matter how clean or how great you had your rack—your stuff stowed—there was always something wrong, and in my case, um, uh, I didn’t make my bed very well. Uh, and they ripped my sheet off, and the DI came up to me—I’m six-foot -two—and my DI was—I think he was probably five-foot-eight or—I mean, he would’ve done really well in the submarine. Um, But he came up to me and threw the sheet over my head, and was screaming at me and says, “You can’t make you’re fucking bed!” And he goes, “How old are you recruit?” “Nineteen, sir,” and he goes, “You are Casper the Catch Edge Ghost. You are to go around to each recruit in this command and walk up to them and raise the sheet and go, ‘Boo. I am Casper the Catch Edge Ghost.’ And put your sheet down and go to the next person. Raise your sheet and go, ‘Boo. I’m Casper the Catch Edge Ghost,’” and I had to do that the entire barrack for the, uh—for the company there, which I—you know, you can’t laugh, and I—inside, I’m laughing my ass off, because—I mean, to me, it’s hilarious, but if you laughed, it just makes it a lot worse.
So I proceeded to do that, and, um, you know, they, uh—and to this day, I don’t make my bed [laughs], and it’s for—ever since then, I do not make my bed, but, um, I had to, um—I just, uh, —it’s one of those things that—it stuck with me, I guess, but, uh, stuff like that—I mean, we had, um, you know—people didn’t have their stuff stenciled right, so they to, uh—they made them fix that. Just little things, and going through and—this process: they come in and they work on people and break them down, and then start building back up as a team, and over time, start marching together and you start doing activities, um, and things like that to—to get to work together as a team, and, um—the people who are struggling, you start to see your leaders step up to help them and, you know, get them in line, because the ones that were having problems—then they started getting, you know, pressure put on them, because they weren’t, you know, keeping up. Like, you know, I learned how to march and, you know, thankfully learned how to skip to catch my step and would get myself back in line, but, uh, you know, there are some guys that struggle with that. They didn’t know how to do it or they were intimidated by it, um, and, you know, you start to work together, so that they can’t get you. Meaning—“they” meaning the drill instructors, and, um, that—that was the neat part to see—everyone start to coalesce together and work together.
Hill
When—do you remember a specific moment or a specific activity that you really started to notice that team coalescing?
Partain
Um, I would say the, uh—we had one time, where[sic] we had a head inspection, and, um, no one liked cleaning the bathrooms, and it’s, you know—in the Navy, the head is your bathroom. So we had a head inspection and, um, you know, everyone pretty much—we knew what was going to happen if we didn’t get it clean. So everyone just dropped everything, ran in there, got it cleaned up, cleaned up, picked up. I remember, um, for some reason, I remember doing—clearing behind one of the toilets with a toothbrush—Not—and not one we were using, but one that we had assigned for cleaning and stuff—and trying to get everything out and spic and span, and, um, that was nice to see that, because, at that point, everyone, you know—everyone was working as a team, and, uh, um, the last part of the training was where you saw the—the team-building. Uh, unfortunately, I didn’t make it past, um, my fifth week, so I didn’t get to do some of the other stuff that they did—firefighting together and other things that I didn’t get to—get to participate in.
Hill
Right.
Partain
Um…
Hill
What would you pinpoint as some of those qualities that really helped bring the team together—that transformation?
Partain
Well, I mean, the, uh—the qualities is the—it’s the individual learning that they’re not the center of the universe, and that’s one of the things, uh—basic training in the military is to break down the individuality, to have people understand that, you know, you’re—you’re part of something, and the world doesn’t revolve around you. Uh, some people get it quicker than others. Those that do, do very well in the military. Some never get it, but, uh, that was one thing that, uh—that they, you know—everything was designed to do that. Uh, to do it to break down the civilian and then recast him as a—as person who could think in a military world, because, when it comes down to it, one, you now—in the military world, there is a chain-of-command—a hierarchy—and you are expected to follow orders, and there could be times that something could be going on, and you’re given an order, and, as a civilian, you might question it and be like, Well, I don’t feel like doing that right now, and you can’t do that in the military, because someone may tell you to do something, um, like shut a door and secure the door, because there’s a fire, and if you start arguing with them, then the fire might spread out beyond the compartment and—and jeop—jeopardize the ship and everybody on it. So part of the—that training is to get people to understand, you know, hey, there’s a time, you know—the time to be a civilian is when you’re off duty, but when you’re—when you’re on duty, you have your military bearing, you have—you follow it, and you, you know—you work for the good of the unit.
Hill
When you were off duty, was there ever any sort of social life with…
Partain
Oh, when I was in training…
Hill
Amongst the recruits?
Partain
No, no. There’s no liberty or leave—li—liberties really. There was no liberty, uh, in training. Um, the liberty took place when you graduated from boot camp. Um, so I did not get that experience. Uh, once—once I went into the medical hold company, and I stayed there, and, um, you know, that—that—once I got out, then I went home and that was it.
So, uh, one of the funny things that happened—um, my father and grandfather both sent in birthday cards for me, uh, while I was in training, and, uh—which normally wouldn’t be a problem, but they were being smartasses and they signed their card—they put in the address of the card—my father put down: “Captain Warren B. Partain, Jr., USNC” —I’m sorry—uh, “USNA class of ’66,” and, uh—and then my grandfather put, uh: “Major Warren B. Partain, Sr., USNC, retired,” and, um, the DIs, of course, got the letters and they called me up to the office, and, uh, you had to walk up to the office, you had to bang on the door and announce who you were, and then asked permission to enter in, and, uh, so I get into the office and, um, I see the birthday cards in my DI’s hand, and he goes, “So your father was a—was a ring banner?” And I knew right then what my dad had done.
The “ring banner” is a term—a derogatory term—for a Naval Academy graduate. So he goes, “Drop and give me 20.” [laughs] So—and he goes—of course, that wasn’t good enough, so I ended up doing like I think 60 or 70 pushups. Um, and of course, you know, that was because of what my grandfather and father had done, but, um, it was their amusement [laughs], but he wasn’t a mean guy. I mean, they started to like me. They’re not, um—it’s not like they’re sadists or anything like that—the drill instructors. They do it for a purpose, and then, you know. As you mature and things like that, you get to see what they’re trying to do and they really begin to teach you.
Hill
What would you say that purpose is [inaudible]? What were they trying to teach you?
Partain
Well, I mean, how to conduct yourself in a military fashion. A military bearing.
Hill
Okay.
Partain
Like one of the things—one of the things I still remember is to make sure my gig line is straight. Um, you know, when you get dressed and, uh, get everything together, your buttons line up with your belt—the edge of your belt buckle and your—and your zipper, so you have what’s called a “gig line.” It goes straight up from—from your neck down to your crotch [laughs].
Hill
So what was daily life like as a Navy recruit?
Partain
Well, everything was structured. I mean, you got in the—in the training, you got up at a certain time, you ate at a certain time, uh, you PTed at a certain time, uh, You had training and different things, uh, at—at different, um—at different times, and then they put you to bed. So you had no choice. I mean, very little free time. The only time we really got free time was laying in the rack before you went to sleep.
Hill
Who did you interact with on a daily basis?
Partain
Um, well, they kept you too busy. so you talked to your, um—your, you know—your bunkmate and the people around you, but for the most part you’re doing what they—they put in classes and they teach, you know—they—one of the first things they start teaching you is the UCMJ for the Univer[sic]—Univerm[sic] —Uniform Code Military Justice, which is the rules and regulations of the Navy. You know, how to salute, when to salute, um, how to march, uh, what you can and can’t do, um, And just, you know—it’s an emersion into a different life style.
Hill
Who were—you said you were taking classes, so who were your instructors?
Partain
Um, just other, uh—other, um—sometimes they were other Dis, sometimes they were, uh, just other people on the base. Um, No one that I really remember specifically.
Hill
Okay. Do you remember any of your specific classes?
Partain
Um, like I said, most of it— like the UCMJ. One of the funny ones, uh—probably not appropriate for this, but it’s one of those things that stuck in your mind. We’re sitting there showing slides and talking about the UCMJ, and they had, um—they had this slide come up, and it was on a pink background. It had a sailor sitting down, and on his lap, he had a dog, and there was a big circle with a line through [laughs] it for no bestiality, and I about but laughing when I saw it.
Hill
[laughs].
Partain
But they had—I mean, just stupid things like that, but, uh, the, uh, you know— when they start getting to the later weeks, like I said, they—[inaudible]—they—they’d have you march, and there was a lot of drill to get you to un—to get your body into the routines, and then later on, you start doing more class work, and, um, they, uh—like I said, they—they—one of the big things was firefighting. We are out doing firefighting duty, and then they have one a week, where you’re working KP [kitchen patrol] duty and stuff like that for the kitchen.
Hill
Uh, Could you clarify for me what, um—the acronym UCMJ?
Partain
University[sic] Code of Mil—Universal[sic] Code of Military Justice. [5] It’s the law for the military. So the military has its own, um—basically its own judicial system, uh, that’s separate from the civilian one. So they administer their own laws, and, uh, courts, and everything. So, like if I did something wrong, then I could be, uh—they have what’s called a “captain’s mast” or “court-martialing.” and your—whatever infraction, then you’ll assess whatever penalty or—or, uh, punishment that they have.
Hill
So what was the hardest thing you remember doing at NTC?
Partain
The hardest thing that I remember doing, um—I dunno. it was probably just the, um—I’m tempted to say—well, the—well, the thing that I didn’t like the most—that was hard or difficult for me—was in the military—medical hold company. Um, this—this was once they disqualified me from service. They put me in a limbo, um, where I didn’t know when I was going home. I didn’t know what was really going on, other than the fact that they were—they, uh—that I was being disqualified from the Navy, and they told me that, you know, it takes some time and it could take a couple days, a couple months. So I’m like, you know—no one likes to be in limbo, and they would have you do stupid stuff, Just to have you do it. Uh, like we went in to one barrack and we scrubbed the whole barrack with hand brushes, on our hands and knees, and it was just, um—stuff like that. That was, you know, trying not to get negged out. Um, that was the hardest thing for me.
I mean, to me, the training is easy. Um, you know, doing the physical activities, the running, uh, the marching, the learning. That was easy and it didn’t bother me. I mean, I enjoyed, um, the challenge of that. The hard part for me was when I realized that I was not going to be able to stay in the Navy, Having to wait, and then wait for the bureaucracy to process—process me out. Yeah.
Hill
Before we move on to that moment, um—because I do want to talk about that—can you tell me one moment where you felt really proud of your work in NTC?
Partain
Um, the—I think the proudest moment—I still have it—is, uh, my photograph. Um, they brought us in after we shaved us, and we’re all cleaned up, and they dressed us up, and they marched us in, and we took our photograph with the American flag behind us, uh, so we could send it home to Mom and Dad, and that to me was the proudest moment. Um, I—I still have that photograph. I have it on my Facebook page, and, um, I keep that, and, uh, you know—yeah[?]. It’s just a little snot-nosed kid in his little sailor’s uniform, but it—to me, that was something that I could show that hey, you know, I’m serving my country. I’m doing what’s right and trying to make, you know, things a little bit better than when I found it.
Hill
Did you send it home to mom and dad?
Partain
Oh, yeah.
Hill
What’d they say?
Partain
I think, uh—I mean, ma—they wrote me back, and I had a girlfriend, at the time too, and she wrote me. I had letters from her, um, on a daily basis. I still got them, and, uh, the, uh—I’ve got a stack of letters about that thick that she wrote to—back and forth, and that was nice, you know, to have someone writing back and forth. It—it kind of killed the monotony. You’d look forward to—you know, that was you’re little piece of individ—individuality. You get your letter and mail call and—and to read that, and, uh—but yeah. I sent that home to Mom and Dad, and my girlfriend.
Hill
So when did you leave the Navy then?
Partain
Yeah, I was, um—it was—I don’t remember the exact day, Um, but it was in February, uh, of ’88. It was roughly about two months after I’d got there. I think I served just under 60—60 days, or somewhere close to 60 days, and, um, basically they came in and told me to collect my gear, um, get my dress blues on, and they sent me home. See, when I enlisted, I enlisted, instead of as a, uh—um, going in as a seamen, I would have—when I completed everything, I would have come out as a, uh, Petty Officer—an E-3.
So, um, they allowed me to go home with a—with that uniform and that rank, which is kinda nice, you know? It was funny, ‘cause everyone else were[sic] being sent off, and I get my orders and am being put on a bus. They asked me if I wanted to go on a bus, or I think it was a train to Water Haven, and I said, uh, “Just drop me off at the airport.” I called my mom and dad and told them to come get me, because the airport’s, you know, 45 minutes from my parent’s house. Because a bus would have taken like 3 hours to get there. So I had them drop me off at the airport, and I played video games [laughs] for about two hours while I waited for my parents to come get me, but it was nice to, you know, walk around the airport in the—in my uniform and get home, and I saw my girlfriend in my uniform and that, uh—that’s always fun.
Hill
Um, so have you—what did you do once you left?
Partain
Um, well, once I was out of the Navy, I went back to college. Um, of course, the—my plan of having the Navy, uh, as a career and paying for my college that way kind of fell through. Um, I went to work for Disney World, and, uh, finished my AA [Associate of Arts] degree, and then transferred up to Florida State University and married my girlfriend, and I completed my degree up there, and, uh, you know, worked my way through college.
Made me appreciate my education a lot more, and, uh, one of the things ironic things and—that happened—and it kind of comes back full circle with NTC Orlando—um, seven years ago, I was diagnosed with, uh, male breast cancer. Oddly enough, my birthplace was extremely contaminated with, um, drinking water—I mean, uh, solvents in the drinking water, and one of those solvents is called Tetrachloroethylene, which is used in dry-cleaning, and it’s linked to breast cancer. Um, whenever I was a child growing up, I would break out into the rash I told you about, because—well, shortly after I was diagnosed, I went back, and I remembered my experience at NTC Orlando, and the fact that I had broken out in this rash after, uh, I had gotten on base. So I looked up the base, and like Camp Lejeune, NTC Orlando was declared a Superfund[6] site, um, uh, partly because of the Tetrachloroethylene dumped from the base drycleaner, which was located right next to the barracks, where I was housed as an enlisted, uh, sailor, uh—seaman—in, uh—in 1988, and the base was actually closed down in 1995, um, and listed in—into the Superfund site at that time, which, uh—it’s one of those odd things that I always wondered about is: how bad was the base contaminated? Because, soon as I got home, the rash that I had broken out with, while I was in training, cleared up
Hill
Hm.
Partain
Without any—within days of being home, and, uh—and it never broke out like that again, like I did when I was on base, and [inaudible]—when I rented on base, I was fine, and, uh—so it’s one of those things that makes you wonder, and my understanding is that the—the, uh, base drycleaner—he said they had been dumping this chemical on the base and it was a plume of it that actually stretched underneath the recruit training barracks, like I said, and ended up, I think, in Lake Druid—is where the chemicals were coming out.
Hill
Did—was there ever any cleanup measures taken?
Partain
I don’t know. I didn’t look into that. I’ve been tied up with the Camp Lejeune issue since then, but one of these days, I’d like to go back. I’d heard some things that had happened here, but I didn’t follow the—the end results of, um, NTC Orlando after that. I know they closed the base down and I think the developed it—part of it as a private community.[7] And I heard there were some problems here, but, uh, you know, like I said, I didn’t really follow—follow up on it, but I thought I would mention it.
Hill
Did you keep in touch with anyone from the base?
Partain
Uh, one of the guys I enlisted with, um, actually, was a high school friend of mine. We both went into the Nuclear Power School together. Um, His name is Alex, and he was actually, um, accepted into the United States Naval Academy, like my father, and he still presently serves in the Navy. I believe he’s a Commander or a Captain now. I do not know his rank. I haven’t—I haven’t kept up with him the past couple of years, but I think he’s a commander. but he did serve—uh, he’s—he’s still serving, and, uh, actually got an appointment to the Naval Academy, which is one of—one of the things I was hoping to do myself.
Hill
Uh, so one of the things you mentioned earlier is that, um, the Navy teaches you that you’re a part of something larger.
Partain
Mmhmm.
Hill
Would you say that that’s something that you feel you’ve carried on to the [inaudible]?
Partain
Well, growing up in a military family, it’s always been indoctrinated into me for that. Um, Like I mentioned, I, you know, became involved in the Camp Lejeune issue mainly, uh, because, you know, I realized what had happened to me wasn’t unique, and I felt a responsibility to speak out and help the other Marines and families, which I’ve been doing for the past seven years. So, I mean, that’s—growing up in a military family, um, you know, you—it just—it’s service, God, honor, country. I’m mean, that’s the way I was raised, and when you go into the service, you’re taught God, honor, country.
Hill
Are there any other values or characteristics, um, of the Navy that you think transferred to the rest of your life, as well?
Partain
No, I mean, the God, honor, country is[sic] primarily the core principles with which I’ve tried to guide my life.
Hill
What would you say is the most valuable lesson you learned during your time at the Navy?
Partain
Um, probably, never give up. You know, you always—you always keep moving forward and just, you know, never give up.
Hill
Can you remember a time while you were, um, in training that you felt like giving up, but didn’t?
Partain
Um, got lonely. I mean, left my girlfriend behind and, uh, there was a time where—yeah. I was thinking, Okay. I’m going to be doing this, going off at sea for six months, and I don’t know if I like that, and, you know you just—you look back and say, Well, why did I join? I joined because I wanted to get an education, I wanted to get a trade, and, you know, the Navy’s going to provide that, and, you know, you—you quickly overcome those things. Feelings are temporary [sniffs]. Good and bad [sniffs].
Hill
What do you think the lasting legacy of NTC Orlando or the Navy’s presence in Central Florida has been?
Partain
Well, the, um—for me—and understanding what I have come across, because of my, you know—because of the issue with breast cancer—it—unfortunately, I mean, NTC Orlando’s gone. Uh, it’s no longer there. The vestiges are still here, but what the Navy left behind underground, that is going to be here for years to come, and that’s something that really has not been addressed in a great deal with the community. Um, And sadly, that—in the end, that becomes the Navy’s legacy—is not for the good things they did, but for, you know, the irresponsibility for leaving toxic chemicals behind.
Hill
What actions would you like to see taken to resolve those issues?
Partain
Um, well, I’m not familiar totally with the issue to—to see what they’ve done. I know, as part of the bra—uh, Superfund site, they’re required to cleanup. Um, to what extent they’ve cleaned up, I don’t know. Uh, there’s a lot of different laws and, uh, different, um, procedures in place, but, in the end, you know, that—that’s something the Navy, um—well, I don’t know what to say on that. Sorry. I got distracted. The ADHD [attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder] is killing me here.
Hill
[laughs] That’s alright. That’s alright.
Partain
But[?]…
Hill
Um, so…
Partain
It’d be—it would be nice to have…
[phone rings]
Partain
We have a phone distraction here.
Hill
It would be nice to have…
Partain
Hm?
Hill
You were saying…
Partain
Okay. It would be nice to have an independent, um, historical analysis of what, you know—what the Navy did and exactly what the Navy legacy is. I mean, the—the infrastructure of the base is gone. Um, what’s left is the land that they owned on the base, and what did they leave behind on that land? and how will that affect the community? And sadly, you know, u, what was not cleaned up by the Navy, uh, will be there for some time to come and, you know, somebody’s gonna have to pay that cost.
Hill
So how do you think uh,—how is the NTC—well, you talked about how the base has changed. What about the region? Um, Central Florida as a whole. How do you think it’s been impacted since the base closed?
Partain
Well, the, um—I mean, the base itself, um, wasn’t a, uh, mega base, like you would have, say, with, um, Mayport Naval Station up in Jacksonville. Um, It had an impact on the community, uh, but not, you know—there wasn’t aircraft being serviced, um, there wasn’t[sic] ships and, you know, the contractors to work the ships and things, you know—servicing the ships or what have you. It’s a training center. So, uh—and I would say there was an economic impact. To what degree it was, I don’t know.
Hill
kay. Um, what do you think visitors would like to see or be reminded of when they revisit the site of the base? The [inaudible].
Partain
Well, I haven’t been back since I left, and, um, I’ve driven by it a couple of times. Uh, there was a gaming store called Enterprise 1701 near the base, where I used to get my board games. That was a hobby I had, and I—it would be nice to go back and see the site, uh, of where the base was, and maybe something commemorating that it was here, and, uh, I am curious to go back and see and see—and see exactly what is there, uh, and what’s left, and what they’ve done with the, uh—with the base and the Superfund site stuff, ‘cause there’s[sic] things that I’m aware of because of my involvement with Camp Lejeune and being on Camp Lejeune, that, you know, when you go on base, you look at things, and unless you know what you’re looking at, you don’t know what it is. So I’m kind of curious to see what’s there on the base.
Hill
Did you ever go back?
Partain
No.
Partain
I understand that the old naval hospital is the VA [Veterans Affairs] hospital now.
Hill
Now…
Partain
So I’d be curious to see that.
Hill
Were you ever at that hospital?
Partain
Yeah, that’s where I was…
Hill
That’s where you were disqualified.
Partain
Disqualified from service. They sent me to that hospital. I remember marching by myself with a chip, um, going down to the hospital, and, you know—and then, they were really puzzled, um, by what was happened with me. Matter of fact, I later got my me—my medical records from the Navy, and, uh, they were really puzzled why I broke out, because it was all over my arms and my face and was a blood red rash, and, um, they could not figure out what it was, and, uh, they kept asking all kinds of questions. They—they’re like, “Well, you had this when you si—when you signed up,” and I’m like, “Well, I was born with this, but it’s never been a problem like this,” and they said, “Well, how did you get passed recruit training or the recruit indoctrination and all that?” And I said, “Well, I wasn’t breaking out.” I said, “This is something that—normally, it comes and goes.” At the time, I thought it was, you know—in the wintertime, I’d break out or if I wore dry-cleaning clothes, and I thought, at the time, that it may have been the clothes—the polyester rubbing against my skin doing it. I had no idea that it could be anything else.
Hill
Right.
Partain
Because it would—I mean, I didn’t find out about what had happened to me at Camp Lejeune until, uh, 2007, which is 20 years after I joined.
Hill
Um, what was it like in the—the hospital—In the Navy hospital?
Partain
Um, just you’re standard, you know, ultra-clean hospital. Nothing—nothing special.
Hill
Nothing special? Okay. Uh, well, is there anything else you’d like to share about your Navy experience?
Partain
Um…
Hill
Anything you think I missed or we didn’t talk about?
Partain
No, I mean, it’s, like I said, the—I mean, for young people, the Navy—and in the military, in general, uh,—presents a lot of opportunities. You know, it’s not perfect. I could mention the contamination problem, with something present in the military especially during the ‘60s, ‘70s, and ‘80s, but, you know, for young people, it’s an opportunity to start your life, to pick up something, uh, unique, to learn, and more importantly, it—it builds a sense of self-discipline inside you. ‘Cause it’s very easy to forget that, you know, there’s more to the world than just you, and serving in the military is productive. I mean, it—it gives you a respect for yourself, respect for others, respect for your country. Um, and, you know, it’s something that, you know—I think everyone should do as a citizen of this country, and, uh—I mean, that’s just, um—there’s a lot of positives that come out of it. Now, the leadership of the military—that’s another story.
Hill
What’s next for you?
Partain
Um, well, I’m 46, and, um, uh, for me, um, I worked my career, raised my children, and, uh, I’m going back to get my Master’s [degree] in history, and I’m actually going to be writing about and doing research with, uh, contaminated military bases, uh—is my—my career until I retire.
Hill
So your experience has really shaped where you’re headed?
Partain
Well, the, um—more my birthplace. The, uh—Because of what happened to me, uh, before I was born at a military base, but, you know, NTC Orlando is one of those curious things that, once I put two and two together, I looked at it, and eventually, I’ll do the research on it and—and learn what happened there, but right now, my focus is other places.
Hill
Well, thank you so much for your time.
Partain
Oh, you’re welcome.
[1] Officially called the Walter Reed National Military Medical Center.
[2] United States Military Entrance Processioning Center Tampa.
[3] Correction: Jacksonville.
[4] Correction: Avon Park Air Force Range.
[5] Correction: Uniform Code of Military Justice.
[6] Comprehensive Environmental Response, Compensation, and Liability Act of 1980.
[7] Baldwin Park.
Joyner
Today is March 15th, 2014. I am interviewing Chad Etchison, who served in the United States Navy. Mr. Etchison currently serves as Command Senior Chief at NOS—NOSC [Navy Operational Support Center] in Orlando. My name is Chad Eric Joyner. We are interviewing Mr. Etchison as part of the UCF [University of Central Florida] Community Veterans History Project and as research for the creation of the Lone Sailor Memorial Project. We are doing this interview at the UCF Library in Orlando, Florida. Senior Chief, if you will please start off by telling us when and where were you born?
Etchison
I was born in Anderson, Indiana, on December 19th, 1973.
Joyner
What did your parents do for a living?
Etchison
Uh, my dad was a mechanic, uh, for Delta Air Lines and, uh—prior to the Navy, and my mom was a schoolteacher.
Joyner
Did you have any brothers or sisters?
Etchison
Yeah, I have a[sic] older brother, Mark, who’s, uh—currently works for Anderson University in Indiana. He’s a football coach, and I have a younger sister, Lana, who, uh, works in advertising in Atlanta, Georgia.
Joyner
Growing up, where did you go to school?
Etchison
Uh, well, when I was a very young age, we moved to Jonesboro, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta. So I, uh, grew up in Jonesboro, went to elementary school all the way through high school right there in Jonesboro.
Joyner
What did you do before entering the Navy?
Etchison
High school. I joined right [out of] high school. I—I—actually, I joined the Navy, um, just a couple months into my senior year. So I know what I was going to do.
Joyner
Um, when did you join?
Etchison
I joined in December of [19]91.
Joyner
Why’d you join the Navy?
Etchison
Um, I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do after high school. Um, my brother had received a football scholarship. He was a big sports star. I got a couple offers, but I kind of wanted to step outside—or from under his shadow a little bit. Do something different. Uh, and both my grandfathers and father were Navy veterans and they talked about their time in the service, so figured I give it a shot, and that’s what I did.
Joyner
So that’s why you selected the Navy over the other branches?
Etchison
Initially, I wanted to join the Army, but, um, my dad kind of talked me out of it and talked me into talking to a Navy recruiter, and, uh, once I talked to them, I got offered, uh the job I wanted, so I went with the Navy.
Joyner
How did your family feel about you joining the Navy?
Etchison
Uh, they were a hundred percent behind it.
Joyner
Where did you attend boot camp?
Etchison
Uh, I left Georgia in November of ‘92, um, come down here to Orlando, and, uh, I was here for a couple of days, uh, classing up there waiting for all the recruits to get here for my class. Then we officially started boot camp on December 1st of ‘92.
Joyner
What were you trained to do for your career in the Navy? What—what were you trained to do for your career in the Navy?
Etchison
At the time, I was just planning on, uh, doing my—I enlisted for six years, so my—my initial thought was just do the six years get the training and get out. See what was—well, what life had to offer me, but, uh, 21 years later, I’m still here so…
Joyner
When did you begin your training at NTC [Naval Training Center] Orlando, and how did this come about?
Etchison
Um, I graduated boot camp in February of ‘92.[1] Got two weeks leave and then started, uh, beginning of March—end of February of ‘92[2] at NTC Orlando. Uh, I went there, because of—that was the first phase of Electronics Technician School. Uh, the basic electronics was here in Orlando. Um, so I went through there and then from there I moved on to the [Naval Training Center] Great Lakes to finish my training.
Joyner
What did you know about the region, military, or—or any other information about Orlando, before arriving?
Etchison
Uh, actually, my—my grandparents—my dad’s parents—live in Winter Haven, Florida. So we’d been down here quite a bit vacationing and spending time with them. So I knew about the area—of course, the attractions and stuff, but as far as the military, um, I really didn’t know there was a boot camp here, until I joined the Navy. That’s—that’s where they told me I’d go.
Joyner
How long were you at NTC Orlando?
Etchison
Uh, I was there from Nov—at NTC? I was there from March until July of that summer, so several months.
Joyner
What was your first impression of the base?
Etchison
I loved the base. Uh, it was a training facility, so, uh it—it was nice. Um, act—actually, at the time, they were building some new schoolhouses, and, uh, I had several friends at Nuclear School there, so, uh, it was kind of like a college campus almost, you know?
Joyner
What were your first days of the service like?
Etchison
Confusing. Very confusing. Um, had no idea what was going on—on—all I knew was just they pointed this and told us to go somewhere, I just followed along and went with whatever they told me.
Joyner
What were you primary responsibilities at NTC Orlando?
Etchison
Uh, at NTC, I was, uh just a student primary. As a student, we would stand duty and have watch responsibilities, and, um, that’s pretty much it.
Joyner
What did the watch responsibilities consist—contain or consist of?
Etchison
Uh, watch responsibilities, uh—you had watch every four days or one weekend a month. Uh, mainly just staying quarterdeck watch at the barracks, uh, making sure everybody who entered the barracks had proper ID, and a reason for being in there and you’d clean. Basically, cleaning duties, making sure the barracks stayed clean and the—all the showers, they stayed clean.
Joyner
What was your overall impression of the recruits and their training at the base?
Etchison
At the beginning, you hated it, but at the end, um—I—I got a lot out of it. I thought it was a great experience. Um, you kind of grow up really fast, so the experience was—was for—for a young kid, to me, was a great—was great. I learned a lot—learned a lot about myself, you know? And the thing back then is there is no such word as “quit,” ‘cause they wouldn’t let you quit. They’d push, push, push, and when you thought you couldn’t go anymore, they’d push more. So it was a—it was a great experience for me. An eye-opening experience being, uh, fresh out into the world, right out of high school. So, um, I got a lot out of it, and I look fondly back on—on those memories.
Joyner
What kind of social life existed amongst the recruits?
Etchison
Um, first and foremost, respect, you know? Um, they demanded respect. Uh, it’s a little bit different nowadays, we’re more PC [politically correct] with the training, but back then, ultimately, you learned respect and you gave respect. Uh, that was the primary, and then, um, just the basics of being a sailor, what it was like to be a sailor, the routine of, um—of being a sailor and how to survive, uh, in the Navy [sniffs] [clears throat].
Joyner
How often was leave granted?
Etchison
Uh, in boot camp, it wasn’t. Um, when I was in training, if there was[sic] any special holidays, you got—you can request leave. Um, But everybody was offered two weeks leave, right out of boot camp, So I took advantage of that.
Joyner
Where did you go?
Etchison
Uh, I went back home, and actually, I started a week with the, um, local recruiters, going back to my high school and talking about my experiences in boot camp and stuff, And doing that, they only charged me for one week.
Joyner
How did you feel about going back with the recruiters?
Etchison
Uh, it was a proud experience to walk back into your high school and see, uh, a lot of the students that were still there. Walk back in uniform and stuff, and—and knowing—even though, looking back, it wasn’t that big of accomplishment, but at the time, to me, you know, going through boot camp and doing that was a big accomplishment for me. It’s kind of, uh, rewarding to go back and have everyone see you in uniform.
Joyner
How did you training experiences shape your relationship with other recruits in you class?
Etchison
It—it taught me, um—the biggest thing I learned is—is, uh—there were recruits from all over the country. So many different backgrounds and, uh—and I didn’t realize how diverse the military was and, uh—and how different, you know people’s upbringings was[sic] all over the country. So you learn to adapt to people and learn to, uh—to accept people for who they are, and—because—because you got to work together as a team, and ultimately, that was one of the things they taught us in boot camp—how to work together as a team. So regardless of your differences—your background—ethic, religion, whatever—When you are part of that team, it does not matter. You’re all one team. You have to work together. So that was an eye-opener too.
Joyner
Who did you interact with on a daily basis?
Etchison
Um, during boot camp, there was a couple of people that I interacted with, Uh—several recruits. One—one—one—his name was Tom Johnson. Um, he was from, uh, Red Wing, Minnesota, and I don’t know why, but me[sic] and him just got along. So me[sic] and him would talk on a daily basis.
Joyner
While you were at NTC, was there anybody…
Etchison
Um, actually, uh, he was also, um, in the electronics technician program too, so me[sic] and him were actually in the same class, and we ended up being roommates, and, um, a third roommate joined us. His name was Troy Slewroo[sp], and I become close friends with him and, uh, he’s still serving in the Navy as well, so I talk to him on a regular basis too. Um, after about a year, after I graduated Electronics School, I kind of lost track of Tom, so I’m not sure what happened to him, but Troy I still talk to on a regular basis.
Joyner
Who were your instructors?
Etchison
At boot camp, I remember there was a Chief K, and, um BM1 Conner, and, uh, I’ll never forget them, ‘cause they made a huge impact on me, and actually, several years ago, I ran into—who’s now Master Chief Conner. He was a Command Master Chief at Naval Station Mayport, and I was on a ship out there. I was at training and I heard the voice, and I—I know that voice. So I walked around the corner, and, uh, there’s Master Chief Conner. I had a conversation with him and I was floored when he actually remembered who I was. So and, um, in—in A School— I don’t remember his name, but I know he was a retired chief—electronics technician—and, uh, he was my instructor. I don’t remember his name.
Joyner
What were your instructors like?
Etchison
Um, during boot camp, the two instructors—they were hardcore workout fanatics. So, um, we got in pretty good shape, ‘cause, uh, they were all about pushups, sit-ups, doing all that kind of stuff all the time. So, um, they—they were pretty strict, but they also kind of had a joking side. They—they would joke with you and, um, they let you know when it was time to be serious and time to joke.
Um, my instructor for A School, um—he was great. He was a very personable person. Um, very strict in the classroom, but very approachable, and, uh, he helped us out a lot. Willing to do whatever he could to make sure we understand what he was teaching. So…
Joyner
What was the hardest thing you remember doing at NTC?
Etchison
Uh, the hardest thing was going through Electronics Technician School. It’s just so much information thrown—THROWN at you at one time. Um, and, uh, it was fast and furious, and—and coming out of high school, um, the—the pace was just so much quicker than I was ever use to, And a lot of information to try and retain and, uh, just trying to figure out how to study and—and how to be able to regurgitate that information during our labs and during our tests. So, eh, that was very challenging for me, and—and I struggled a little bit at first, and, um, eventually the instructor to help me along kind of—I went to him and he taught me actually how to study and the proper ways to—to study to help us out, ‘cause the pace was just so fast.
Joyner
What was your proudest moment?
Etchison
Um, making it through basic electronics training. Um, I was proud when I graduated boot camp, but, uh, moving on with Electronics Technician School—that was the first hurdle you had to get through. Um, Otherwise, you could have went to—if you failed out, which we had a couple guys drop out, you got sent to the fleet to a ship—basically undesignated. So you were working with the boatswain, which is not the funniest job, and I joined to do electronics work, so once I got past that first hurdle of graduating electronics school, that was a big—big moment for me.
Joyner
Tell me a story of a time at NTC you will never forget.
Etchison
There—there’s a couple, but the one that stands out the most is, um—was in boot camp, ‘cause, uh, the first time we really got, uh, a PT’d [physically trained] really hard, they called it “cycling.” And, um, we did what they call a “rain party,” where all the windows were shut, all the bunks were pushed back, and they just PT’d us until condensation formed on the ceiling. We were just going and going, and going, and, uh at the time, we were, uh, [inaudible] This is the worst thing in the world, but looking back on it, it was like, Wow. That was—that was—that was the big start of it all, you know? The—the defining moment of how—how far you were going to be pushed, and you just kept going, because, you know, you were scared to stop, ‘cause these guys were on you, you know? So, um, that’s something I’ll never forget. Looking back on it, I—I kind of chuckle. Uh, that’s kinda fun, because they do not do that kind of stuff anymore, but, uh, um—yeah. I—it’s kind of a fond memory now, even though it wasn’t fun at the time.
Joyner
And that was when you first arrived or the first few months [inaudible]?
Etchison
Uh, no. In the first week or so of being there, once we finally classed up and got moved into our barracks and started to settle in.
Joyner
How would you describe the USS Blue Jacket and its function?
Etchison
Um, unfortunately, when I was there, we didn’t get to do much on the USS Blue Jacket, ‘cause, uh, they were doing some work on it. So, um, we just got the basic tour, got to do some, um, simple line handling drills on it, and that’s about all we go to do, but like I said, because they were doing work on it. So, um, I remember seeing it though and, um, thought it was kind of small for a ship, but, uh, um, I wish we got to the full training, but we just didn’t.
Joyner
And what class of ship was the Blue Jacket?
Etchison
You know, I don’t recall. Um, if I had to guess, I’d probably say it’s a frigate. A small vessel. Kind of really don’t recall.
Joyner
What was the official purpose of the Grinder and what it—it’s significance to you and the recruits?
Etchison
The Grinder, um—that was the— main thing—that’s where we learned how to march, and—and how to follow, uh, calls and military protocol. Um, a lot of work was done on the Grinder. We—in the early mornings, we’d PT’d on the Grinder, and then, uh, we spent a lot of hours in the afternoon just doing marching drills, learning formations over and over and over, you know? Um, it was a big deal when you got your—your, um, dungaree uniform, and, uh, as soon as we got them, um, they took us back to the barracks, and dressed out in them, and went right out to the Grinder, and marched for hours, just to break in your boots. Which we, uh—actually, they were boondockers. They weren’t even boots. They were three-quarter inch, uh—three-quarter inch boondockers. So, um, a lot of blisters [laughs] and stuff, but—yeah. A lot of times, just learning drills and marching quite a bit.
Joyner
How would you defi—how would you define the Grinder to other people? What would you—How would you—what did it mean to you?
Etchison
Oh, um, gosh. At the time, it was a work area, you know? Um, at the time, it meant you—when they said, “Hit the Grinder.” You kind of like—Aw, man. Here we go, you know? You never knew what you were in for, um, whether we were going to PT at the time, even though we had a set scheduled for stuff, you know? If they said “Hey. We’re hitting the Grinder,” you kind of—you didn’t know what you were in for. You were kind of hesitant at the time, but, uh, that—that was the foundation for learning, like I said, the drills and protocol and all them calls, and, um—and on the Grinder, that’s where we become a team, ‘cause if one of us messes up in formation, we all paid the price, so we learned, you know, uh, about being a team.
So when—when I think of the Grinder, I think of, you know—that was the formation of teamwork there and that’s how—where we really learned, uh, to be one, and I guarantee you: by the time we did our graduation ceremony, um, we were all in perfect harmony and perfect step, because of we—we worked it all out there on that Grinder, and we were on that Grinder—we were on the Grinder every day, rain, shine, and, uh, I was here during the winter. It doesn’t matter what the weather was. We were out on that Grinder every day. So, um, a lot of hard work, but, um, a lot, uh—a lot of teamwork came out of that, you know?
So I guess I look back on the Grinder as a, you know—just a—probably a— significant place in Naval history, you know? Because if you think of all the sailors who walked on that Grinder—who learned the same lessons I did there, you know—it’s kind of sad that it’s gone now, you know? But it’s, you know—I never really thought about it until—‘til you asked me, so it—it’s—it’s a pretty—pretty significant, I would say, in my past.
Joyner
What other training bases did you go to?
Etchison
Uh, [clears throat] when I left Orlando, um, I went out[?] to Great Lakes, Illinois, and, uh, did Phase 2 of Electronics School, which is advanced electronics, and then, I also went to, um, the [Naval] Training center out in San Diego[, California] for some follow-on schools before reporting to my first ship.
Joyner
How would you compare the other bases to NTC [Orlando]?
Etchison
I always questioned why they closed Orlando and—and, uh, kept Great Lakes open, because, uh, to me, the base here was nicer. It was in, uh, better shape. Um, But, understandably, the—the history up in Great Lakes, You know—the historical buildings. There’s a lot of history up there, as well, but, um, I always favored this base. It was just, you know—and—and those of us who been through—went through Orlando, kind of take ownership of it, and, you know, um, I [inaudible]—when I first moved down here, uh, six months ago, when I got transferred, I drove over to Baldwin Park just to see what was still there, and, uh, I was kind of sad to see it all gone, you know? I didn’t recognize anything over there anymore.
Joyner
What other areas of the base were particularly important to the recruits?
Etchison
Uh, on boot camp, um, of course your barracks were very important, because, uh, if you ventured outside of that, you know, it—you—that was kind of your safe zone when you were with your—your company commanders, um, that and, um, there was a USO [United Service Organization] right outside, and, um, it was a big deal, ‘cause I know we were there over Christmas, and, um, we got, uh—I think it’s like 45 minutes-an hour. They let us—we were allowed to go over to the USO and just kind of let our hair down for a little while, and, uh, the USO would have some snacks and stuff for us, and, uh, that was always a—a—a great place, you know? I remember going over there and just loving it, and when, uh, we graduated boot camp, everybody migrated over to the USO and that’s where you met your families and stuff.
Um, on the NTC side, I remember there was a little club that had the ar—ar—arcade games, and jukeboxes, and pool. Um, that was—that’s kind of the place we all congregated either after school or on the weekends, um, and there was a McDonald’s. I remember the McDonald’s. Um, there was a volleyball court right across from it, um, in front of some barracks. So usually after school, we—we’d run over get changed and go to the volleyball court, and, uh, you know, spend the majority of the afternoon there, and the, uh, go for McDonald’s, grab something, and go back to barracks and study for the night, and be ready to go the next day.
Joyner
Is that McDonald’s still there or no?
Etchison
Uh, I don’t think so. Not that I remember.
Joyner
What did it feel like to graduate and finally put the hat on?
Etchison
Oh, the white hat? Yeah. Uh, that was a big moment. Um, you strive, and, uh, I remember wearing, you know, the other cap—your—your stocking cap all the time, and you’re looking[?] and you’re like, Aw, I can’t wait until I get the white hat. Can’t wait to get—you know, ‘cause to use that was the signal of a sailor, and once you got the white hat, you know, you knew you were almost there. Um, so that was a big goal that everybody was striving for, was to get the white hat, and then once you got it, you kind of, you know—you kinda strutted around, you know, ‘cause you saw all the other companies that didn’t have theirs yet. So you felt a little better than everyone else. So it was—it was a good feeling.
Joyner
What did you do for the Navy after you completed your training?
Etchison
Um, when I finished, um, I reported to my first ship the USS John A. Moore. Um, I was on there for, uh, three years. Um, deployed a couple times with them. Um, I got to do some work on the USS Wadsworth—help out some fellow ETs [Electronic Technicians] for some time.
After that, I—I transferred to the White House Communications Agency [WHCA]. I was fortunate to get picked for that, and, um, I was—I served under President [William “Bill” Jefferson] Clinton—his last three years, and, uh, Got to setup and maintain all the communications equipment for the President and Secret Service, and, uh, one—one of my primary jobs was to work in the limo shop, so I got to install maintain the presidential limousine, the communications equipment.
From there, I went to Fleet Combat Training Center in, uh, Dam Neck, Virginia, and, uh—and worked on radar systems there. Um, and I—I was fortunate enough to make chief while I was there, and, um, after graduating there I went to the USS Simpson—was on the Simpson out of Mayport, Florida, for, uh—for three and a half years. When left the USS Simpson—when I deployed on to a NATO [North Atlantic Treaty Organization] cruiser, during the [Global] War on Terrorism,[3] with the Simpson and then, um, from there, I went to the, uh, Naval Expeditionary Combat Command. I—I helped stand that up. It was a small staff when I got there. Probably 30-40 people, and, uh, we built up the expeditionary force and when I left we were a staff of 300, uh, plus sailors, and, um, from there, um, I went to Des Moines, Iowa, of all places, with the Navy. Um, I was a Senior Enlisted Advisor for the Navy Operations Force Center out in Des Moines, Iowa. While I was out there, I, um—I made Senior Chief at NACC, and when I was out there, um, I went to the Navy Senior Enlisted Academy and got, uh—and applied and got selected for a Command Senior Chief program, and so, uh, I was at a, uh—a Command Master Chief conference and my [inaudible] was there, and, uh, I got to talking to him, and—and, uh he told me that the, uh—that the Navy Operations Support Center here in Orlando had just, uh, received a Command Senior Chief billet[?], and, uh, asked me if I was interested in coming down here. So, uh, Aft—I thought about it, and I was like, You know, I’m getting to the point where I might want to retire. I figured that would be a great place to retire. So I started my career there and—and I thought it would be neat. If I do retire here, to end it here. So this is where I’m at now.
Joyner
Of all your previous deployments and stations, which one to you is—was the most influential and significant? Which one means the most to you?
Etchison
Uh, probably the USS Simpson. Um, that was my first, um, real command. I was a new chief when I got there, and, um, I learned so much on that ship. I had some great people. I had a few people above me that I didn’t think was[sic] great, but still, um, I—I learned a lot of lessons there on how to treat people, on how not to, um, uh, what it takes to run a division on a ship, um, to be that leading chief.
Um, a lot of that lessons learned on that stuff—on that ship, uh—experiences I—I couldn’t have gotten anywhere else, except for being at sea, you know? So, um, I’m very grateful that I, uh, chose to enter[?], and, um—and the lessons learned—you know—good and bad—that—that was just the biggest learning curve for me—was that 3 years, and, um, I was very fortunate to have a couple, um, of chiefs and senior chiefs I still talk to, to this day, that kind of helped mentor me. From, you know, being a new chief, and I feel when I left that command, I was a seasoned chief, and, um, you know, a lot of great, great chiefs helped me along, and—and we had some good officers that really, you know, helped me learn even more. I kind of thought I knew a lot, and then when I got there, I thought I was in over my head, but, um, it was just such a great experience and a learning experience [inaudible]. I’ll—I’ll look fondly on that command.
Joyner
Where you ever in an active warzone?
Etchison
Um, active warzone? No. Um, we did do, um, boardings, um, outside in the Mediterranean [Sea]. Um, the ships going to and from the Gulf. [inaudible] there’s, um—we did boardings—non-compliance boardings—but I was never in an active warzone though.
Joyner
Could you talk about the boardings, or no?
Etchison
Um, some—some of the boardings, um, [inaudible]—some of them—we did the same thing on—on, uh, my first ship, down off the coast of South America, as well. It’s just, uh, you know, um, looking for contraband. Uh, we go, uh, trying to make contact with the ships. If—if they’re will to stop, great, and let us board, great. If not, for the non-compliance ones, we kind of forced them to stop, and, um—boarding, and I was fortunate to be part of a boarding team on a couple of those, and, uh, whether they are compliant or not, boarding a ship is always nerve-racking, ‘cause you don’t know what to expect, and Of course, you’re looking for contraband and—and, um—and, uh, going through the ship is always kind of nerve-racking, ‘cause you, you know—you don’t know what—there’s so many places to hide on a ship, and, um—so it—it was—it was interesting, to say the least. Um, nerve-racking, but, um, fortunate enough, um, uh—the few, um, kind of situations that happened, I wasn’t involved in those. So I was—I was extremely fortunate, you know? So that’s about that. Nowadays, they don’t do that.
Joyner
You mentioned you kept in touch with one of your buddies from the NTC.
Etchison
Mmhmm.
Joyner
Is there anybody else you kept in contact with from the Navy?
Etchison
Um, I got a couple mentors. Uh, two—two of them have retired from the Navy, but I still keep in contact with them. I touch bases with them, um, if I got a situation I am in and I’m not sure how to handle that, or what to do. Or, uh, if I make a decision on what I’m going to do, I usually call them and run it by them. I—I kind of get their take, um,and—and I’ve made a couple of real good friends along the way that—that I keep in touch with. So I would say—and my dad gave me this advice when I joined the Navy—He told me, um, you know, “Mot everybody’s your friend. You’re going to make a lot of acquaintances, but your—your friends, you’ll keep in touch with.” And so, um, I would say, out of all the sailors I served with, probably about 4 or 5 I keep in touch with.
Joyner
What values or characteristics of the Navy do you believe made an impression on your life?
Etchison
Well, the, you know—our core values are honor, courage, and commitment, and, um, with honor, it’s just not, you know—I feel honored to wear the uniform, but, uh, it’s—it’s an honor to represent not only the United States, but all those sailors that have served before me, and, uh, especially those chiefs who, uh, have made the Navy strong. Because, you know the saying is “The chiefs are the backbone of the Navy.” And my ultimate goal in the Navy was to make chief, once I decided to make it a career, and obtaining that goal and being a part of the mess is, you know, the big honor, and I just want to live up to the standards that, you know, all the sailors before me have set, you know?
Um, and another characteristic is—is courage, and courage doesn’t mean you’re not scared, you know? Um, being courageous is when you’re unsure, maybe a little scared, but you do—you do the job anyway, and—and being courageous is, you know, sometimes making an unpopular decision, you know to, uh—with some of my junior personnel, you know, I know the decision is not going to be popular—not going to like it, but you gotta make it and—and—and be committed to the—to the decision, and, you know, [inaudible] that goes along with commitment, you know? Um, Not only being the decision-maker, but as somebody making the decision, whether you like it or not, or agree with it or not.
Um, we have this saying in the mess, you know: “Acceptance doesn’t mean agreement.” You don’t have to agree with it, but you’re committed. That’s the way we’re going, so let’s go and you drive your sailors to—to follow along. So, um, the values that the Navy hold dear—honor, courage, and commitment—that’s[sic] the ones I take on and try to live up to, and I’ll tell you this: not only in my professional life, but in my personal life as well. ‘cause I—I’m always mindful that my actions out in the civilian world, um, Can affect my professional world, as well, and I—I don’t want to do anything that would discredit, you know, the Navy, as well as discredit my family.
Joyner
So overall, what would you say is the most valuable lesson you learned from the Navy?
Etchison
Wow. Um, you—it’s—it’s—I’ve changed so much in my way of thinking, in the Navy. Um, I think the most valuable lesson is being, uh, tolerant of, uh, different points of view, different, um, people, you know? Um, it’s okay to have your own opinion and to state your opinion and have your belief, as long as you’re willing to accept the fact that there’s[sic] people out there that’s[sic] gonna disagree with you and have a different point of view, and, um, that’s one thing [inaudible], uh—uh, where I grew up, um, I kinda had a mindset of a way things should be and my beliefs, but, um, sitting here 21 years later, I’m a totally different person. I think I’m more open and more, uh, subjective to—other people’s, um, either backgrounds or, you know, ways of life, and, you know, the way I look at it—I, you know—we’re all people. We all have a right to our own opinion, our own way of life, so as long as it doesn’t affect me directly, you know, I haven’t put much thought into it.
Joyner
You said when you returned back to Orlando, you didn’t recognize the base, so—or the area at all. So how would you say the NTC base or the Central Florida region changed since you left?
Etchison
Um, from what I remember, um, there—there’s a few landmarks that are here that I remember going to, um, around the base. Church Street Station is still there. Um, there’s a couple of restaurants—still there, but the landscape has changed, you know, to being primarily housing now, and, um, I think the demographics of the population has changed too. Um, I think there’s more of a Hispanic culture here than I remember.
Um, so, um—and this is the—since boot camp, you know, this is—the last six months is the first time I’ve really been here—living here, you know, not just kind of visiting to visit the theme parks and stuff like that. That’s totally different than actually being—excuse me—being a resident here. So, um, I think the demographics has[sic] changed and, you know, that whole area around Lake Baldwin now, you know, just seems to me to be all housing and stuff now, and, uh, there—there was a club—I think it was called Manatees—outside the gate there—that I was looking for to see if to see if it was still there, and, uh, it might be there, but I couldn’t remember my way around, because I didn’t recognize the area. Um, I remember that and, uh, there was a hotel in the area we use to stay at on the weekends, just to get away. It was the Colonial Plaza. I don’t know if it is there or not. Uh, I’ve [inaudible] —I’ve talked to my wife. I was like, you know, “I want to take some time and drive around see if we can find it,” or, you know—so—But, uh, yeah. It’s totally changed.
Joyner
What do you think the lasting legacy of the NTC Orlando—of is—of the NTC Orlando?
Etchison
I would hope people remembered it was here, you know? And, um, I know the [Central Florida] Navy League has worked hard, uh, to get the—the Lone Sailor [Memorial Project] statue out in Baldwin Park, which, um, that would be a good reminder. Even talking with some of the younger sailors nowadays, uh, when I told them, “Hey. I went to boot camp in Orlando,” they didn’t even know, you know, that Orlando even existed as—as a RTC [Recruit Training Center] or that we had a base down here, Other than where we’re at now. Um, so I—I just hope people remember, you know, that we were here—that we were a big footprint here, at one time, and, uh, I think that Lone Sailor statue would be a lasting memorial, At least to all the sailors, you know, that[sic] served here, and at least we get some kind of recognition that we were here and did something here. So, um, sad that it’s gone, but it is what it is.
Joyner
What do you—what do you think former Navy personnel would like to see or be reminded of when they revisit the site?
Etchison
Um, I think just having a statue that, you know—the Lone Sailor Statue just represents a—a lot to sailors, and, uh, seeing that there would be a, you know—hopefully, just a good reminder, uh, of the things that went on, you know, at RTC and NTC, and, uh,it’s funny when—when I got asked to do this—and looking through my book and thinking about, you know, um—you remember all the good times, you know? The bad times—you just forget—kinda forget them, unless somebody brings something up, but, uh, you remember the good times, and hopefully, having a memorial there, you know, when—when the sailors come back to visit and they see that, it will bring back the good memories of—of that, and the positives that they experienced there.
Joyner
Before we finish I want you to fill in the—fil in the blank for me.
Etchison
Okay.
Joyner
NTC Orlando means what to me.
Etchison
[sighs] I tell you: NTC Orlando means a new beginning for me. Um, because I was there at, uh, RTC and NTC, where I got the first taste of the world and experience the world on my own, not in a family environment or setting, and, uh, I had to rely upon myself, you know, to get things done or to be more responsible. Um, I—I had to answer to a higher authority for my actions. So it was a total new beginning for me, and, um, looking back, I think I made the right choice for myself, ‘cause I couldn’t, um—I couldn’t imagine myself doing anything else, and—and, um—and having that experience there and getting to experience life, uh, on my own being, able to make my own decisions and do things, you know, um—that’s, uh—that’s where it all started for me. Right there.
Joyner
Is there anything I haven’t asked you about or anything else you would like to talk about, sir?
Etchison
You know, I—I can’t think of anything. Um, not at the moment. No.
Joyner
Thank you, Senior Chief Etchison, for taking your time to conduct this interview for us. We appreciate your service and we look forward to—hopefully to this going forward to become part of the Lone Sailor Memorial Project.
Etchison
Uh, thank you for—for inviting me, and, uh, service is a pleasure. So it’s my pleasure to serve—serve the United States and to be able to serve its great people. So, um, I appreciate your “thank you,” but it—it’s—it’s a pleasure and it’s an honor to be able to do this. So, um, thank you for inviting me.
Dunn
Today is November 13th, 2014. I am interviewing Mr. Curtis Sawyer, Associate Vice President of Administrative Affairs at the University of Central Florida, who served in the United States Army for eight years, achieving 1st Lieutenant as his highest rank. My name is Robin Dunn. We are interviewing Mr. Sawyer as a part of the UCF [University of Central Florida] Community Veterans History Project. We are recording this interview in Orlando, Florida. Good morning, Mr. Sawyer. How are you?
Sawyer
Good morning, Robin.
Dunn
[laughs].
Sawyer
I’m doing fine. Thank you.
Dunn
Alright. We’re going to start with some easy questions. Um, when were you born?
Sawyer
[May 1st,] 1965.
Dunn
Okay, and where were you born?
Sawyer
San Francisco, California.
Dunn
[laughs] And what did your parents do for a living?
Sawyer
Hm, my father originally was a college English professor, and then he switched careers about midcareer and went into real estate, and that’s what—so those were his two primary careers. My mother was homemaker.
Dunn
And did you have any siblings?
Sawyer
I have one older sister.
Dunn
Mmhmm.
Sawyer
She’s three years older. Her name is Dojuan [Sawyer].
Dunn
Dojuan?
Sawyer
Yes.
Dunn
And, um, what is—did she have any military history, as well? Did she enlist in…
Sawyer
No, her husband did. He was enlisted man in the 82nd Airborne [Division] and he used to jump out of airplanes for a living. So he and I had quite, uh—a little bit of a common background.
Dunn
And when did you enlist in the service?
Sawyer
Hm, I went in in [June 30,] 1986.
Dunn
And what made you enlist into the Army?
Sawyer
Well, um, I actually went in as an officer, and so, um, it really wasn’t something that I had thought about, when I was a kid growing up in the country in Tennessee. Um, I always really liked playing war games, and, um—so my little toy soldiers, and, um, tanks, and—and I was just set up these elaborate massive battles, and that’s what they [inaudible], and then I’d go outside and whittled out swords and—And, um, play Army, but that was really the extent of what I thought I would do with that desire to do military stuff.
When I was living in Fort Myers[, Florida] in 1986, our [U.S.] senator,[1] who, at the time, senator was Senator[2] Connie Mack,[3] sent out a new letter to us and my dad saw it and it was a little blurb that said, “Hey. Anybody interested in applying to a service aca—academy, um, here’s what you do.” And so, um, my dad said, “Hey, Curt. You should try to do this. You will never get accepted, because you don’t know anybody political, but you can just go ahead and do it for the experience.” and so I did. I went through the process, I interviewed with the co—committee, I did all the PT [physical training] tests, I did the medical exams, I finished my grades, I showed all the stuff that I had done, and then I forgot about it, and, um, I had gone to community college, as well, like what you did. Edison Community College. Now it’s [Florida] SouthWest[ern] State College. and I was going to graduate from there and then I was either going to go to the University of Florida or Florida State [University], whichever school had the higher ratio of females to males.
Dunn
[laughs].
Sawyer
That was my criteria for de—deciding. and so one day, in the mail, came this official looking binder, and, um—and I opened it up, and I looked at it, and it said, um, “The United States Military Academy is pleased to offer you a letter of-of ac—of, uh—of acceptance to the class of 1986”—the class of ‘90—“at West Point.” So that’s how I started my military career.
Dunn
Mmhmm, and so you went to West Point?
Sawyer
I did.
Dunn
Okay. So how was West Point? What was your experience at West Point?
Sawyer
Hm, you know, um, it was something that I—I did not really prepare for. When I got there, um, a lot of my classmates had already prepared they knew what they were up—so There’s a lot of reading, a lot of memory work you have to do. It’s called “bugle notes.” it’s that thick. You memorize it all: insignia, rank, history, sayings, important figures that graduated—all that stuff. Um, they knew all that stuff, they knew how to shine their shoes and their boots, and they knew how to do a proper salute, and they knew—and I knew nothing about that. So it took me a while to figure that all out, and, um—but once I did it went well enough. Um, yeah.
Dunn
Is there anything, um, memorable about West Point? Do you have any, like, experiences that you enjoyed there?
Sawyer
Yeah, I think every single minute of my four years there is seared into my memory. Um, so it—I’m very proud, um, of my West point experience. I’m glad I went. At the time, it was a little bit—I’ve always been a little bit of, um—of an independent type. Um, kinda a little bit of a free thinker. Not in a really kind of a weird or aggressive way, but just always been independent-minded, and that’s not what West point is about. So, um, it’s been around since [March 16,] 1802, and so there’s a history, and there’s a structure, and there’s a way of doing things, and you either comply with it and you do well, or if you don’t, then you really kind of—you just don’t make it. So, um—so once I kinda came to grips with that, um, I did well.
I, you know—the experiences were very rich. The classmates, which[sic] I still keep in contact with, um, the things I did, the training that I did. During the summers, we really wouldn’t have summers off in military training for vacation. We would go on military training. So I went to Air Assault School[4] and I got my Air Assault wings [Badge], went to Airborne School and did that, went to Germany for six weeks, and so just a lot of kind of—life at a hundred miles an hours.
Dunn
And what did you do after West Point?
Sawyer
Well, um, with West Point comes, um, a commitment—a military commitment in the Army, and so, um, I went into the Army and did that for four and a half years. I was stationed at—at different places and did different things. Do—do you want me to share that with you?
Dunn
Yeah, yeah. Where—where were you stationed?
Sawyer
Okay. So once I graduated from West Point, um, my parents bought me a trip to, um, Cancún[, Quintana Roo, Mexico] with a buddy, and, um, so we did that to kind of celebrate the four years of hard work, which is where I met my wife, Uh, by—By the way. She was my travel agent. I’ll tell that story a little bit later.
Dunn
Okay [laughs].
Sawyer
And, um—and so then after that, I went to the Officer Basic Corps in Fort Benning, Georgia, and then I went to Ranger School, um, and then, um—and then my first duty assignment was in [South] Korea, and, um, did Korea for a while, had a regular line. It’s called a “line platoon,” which is a platoon of—in infantrymen, at the time, and then, um, there I took over—it’s called a “scout platoon,” which is a smaller unit—but basically we would go out and were kinda the eyes and ears of the overall battalion, and, um, once I left Korea, then I came back to the United States and went to Savannah, Georgia, and I served with the 75th Ranger [Regiment] battalion. So the first—first Ranger battalion in Savannah, Georgia, and did that for a while, and then I wrapped up my service.
Dunn
Now, you said you went to Korea. Um, what—what was it like going to Korea? What were your first experiences and thoughts, while you were in Korea?
Sawyer
Yeah, um, you know, it was kind of a surprise that I even went to Korea. The way West point does it is that everything you do, um, counts against your rank, and so there is roughly 1,000 of us that entered, um, our plebe year, and so roughly 900 graduated. and so what they do—so every PT, every—every test that you take, every PT test you take, every academic grade you get, every sport that you play, every demerit that you get, everything goes into this basically a formula, and you’re rank-ordered from number one all the way down to the bottom. So you always know where you stand, in terms of the rest of your classmates, and so, what you do then, is you pick the branch that you want to go, and generally most folks get that they want. I always wanted to go infantry, and then what happens is, at some point in time, several couple month before we graduated, they take you into an auditorium, and we’re all in there, and your names are all—all 900—and then all of the available slots that are available worldwide, in terms of duty stations, right? And they’re all there. They’re all on the board. So the number one person…
Dunn
Mmhmm.
Sawyer
Who, in my class, was a guy by the name of Ed Hoyt, was just this—photographic memory—he is the first choice. So the—the best slots always go first. Vicenza[, Veneto], Italy, always goes first, Hawaii goes, Fort Ord, California, always go first. All the cool place go, and then they work down the list.
So I was about mid-pack. I was like around 450 or so, and I had planned—I was dating this girl, and we was all serious, and it was love and all that sort of thing, and so we had agreed that we were going to—that I was going to go to Fort Lewis, Washington. I was going to stay stateside, and, um, we were going to continue the relationship. and so when it can time, when they called my name, Cadet Curt Sawyer, I stood up and fully expected to say, “Fort Lewis, Washington,” but what came out of my mouth was “the Republic of Korea.” and honest to goodness, [inaudible] I’m like—and my friends all looked at me, and I looked at them, and I’m like, “What have I done?” And, um—and that’s where I went, and so, um, the relationship ended pretty quickly thereafter, and, um, I went to Korea.
So Korea was cool, just because, um, back then, it was fairly tense still. There’s still no formal treaty ending the [Korean] War between North Korea and South Korea. So it—it—it could be tense on the Demilitarized Zone—the DMZ, and, um, so I spent quite a bit of time on the DMZ, with—with the, eh—there—there’s a couple of guard posts that are right there. One of them is Guard Post Ouellette, and it’s actually surrounded on three sides by North Korea. So it kinda jets out and, um, it’s pretty tense, and we would do patrols, and—and look for the North Koreans, and they would look for us, and that sorta of thing.
So I wasn’t married. I didn’t have, um, commitments, and so it was a time that I really dove into my craft of learning to be an Army officer, and doing as well as I could. Um, there were several of my classmates that[sic] I went to West Point with, and I went to Airborne School, and I went to Ranger School—they were over there, and so we were pretty close, and we were just we really, really trained hard, and—And, um—yeah.
Dunn
Okay, and you said you went to Airborne and…
Sawyer
Air Assault.
Dunn
Air Assault School. Do you want to talk about those? And how those experiences helped you?
Sawyer
Yeah, um, those are kinda expected. Those are schools that are kinda expected, um, as an Army infantry officer, um, especially someone that wants to go to, um, Ranger School, and then serve in a Ranger battalion. you—you really—it’s hard to be in a Ranger battalion and not have—be airborne qualified, because of a lot of what Rangers do is you parachute in and do your mission, and so it’s just one of those things, and Airborne School is pretty straightforward. I went to it my junior year. They call it a “cow” at West Point. Your junior year, you’re—you’re a cow. Yeah. It goes: plebe, and then yearly, and then cow, and then firstie, right? And so, um, straightforward. You do five jumps, and then you get your Airborne wings, and you put it on, you wear them, you walk around like somebody special, because you—you jumped out an airplane five times.
So it was cool. It was hot, and then Air Assault School is where you—you—basically, you repel out of helicopters, and, um, it’s—it’s pretty straightforward. It actually was a hard course—not the physical part. It’s just you had to learn how to—to rig items, Jeeps, equipment, and that sorta thing, in order to be able to transport them, and so it’s pretty technical, and that was kinda hard. But, um, and that as in Fort Kentu—um, that was in, um—I forget the name—and in Kentucky. That was really hot. Everything I did, all the classes, or courses, were in the middle of the summer, it felt like. So they were good. It was good training. It helped me in my craft as an Army officer.
Dunn
Okay. Um, now, while you’re in Korea—we’re gonna go back to Korea—um, what did you do when you weren’t working? What was your, like, R&R [rest and recuperation], while in Korea?
Sawyer
Um, yeah, you know, there wasn’t that much time that we were off, um, because we were, um, either at the home base, um, getting ready to go back to the DMZ or, um—or we were recovering from out last mission to the DMZ, or, um, we were actually at the DMZ—the Demilitarized Zone, and what that is: it’s basically a line that—the 45th Parallel [North] that divides North and South Korea.
Dunn
Mmhmm.
Sawyer
And, um, the few times that we—the times that we had off, we would go into the city of Seoul[, South Korea]. So we learned how to take the train and—and the sub—and, uh, the subway—and go into Seoul, and there’s a little place called Itaewon, which is were a lot of us would go. Um, I can’t tell you too much about it, because it was one of—it was kind of a younger, wilder, um, time that was a little bit of a blur.
Dunn
That’s okay [laughs].
Sawyer
[laughs]I will tell you this: they have this stuff “soju,” right? Which is—it’s kinda like our white lightning. It’s—it’s, um—really, really, powerful, clear alcohol. And so you can’t drink it straight, ‘cause it’ll kill ya, I mean, it’s like drinkin’ gasoline. So [laughs] whatcha do though is you is mix it with, um, different kinds of Kool-Aids [laughs], and honest to goodness—and so, um, you know—cherry Kool-Aid, or grape Kool-Aid, or whatev—and so it tastes like Kool-Aid. You can’t taste the—the booze in it. So you drink a couple of those, and you just really kind of, you know, be all you can be as a young, American soldier in a foreign country.
Dunn
[laughs].
Sawyer
[laughs].
Dunn
And how long were you in Korea for?
Sawyer
A year.
Dunn
Okay, and when you came back, you said you went to Savannah, Georgia?
Sawyer
Yes.
Dunn
Okay.
Sawyer
That, um—so I was in Korea And, um—and so the scout platoon became available, so I got selected to do that, which is—which is kinda of an honor, because, um—it just is. Um, ‘cause there is just one scout platoon in a battalion, and, um, and the thing about scouts is, um, you—you have to go out, and you have to be very tactical, you have to be very—you cannot be seen, Right? So you kind of—you integrate.
Well, we had a colonel that was, um—came from the old guard in Washington, D.C, and those are the ones—the Tomb of the Unknown Soldiers. So they walk, and all the pomp and the ceremony, and all that sorta thing. Well, that stuff is great, but it doesn’t really work when you’re out in the field, you know? There it’s more about performance, more—it—more about getting the bad guy before the bad guy get you, and so I didn’t wear full uniform that—that he wanted. He thought I should.
For example, I would take my helmet off. When you’re out in the woods, you know, it’s really kinda hard to hear, and—and, um, be stealthy and crafty when you have this big ol’ thing on your head that’s covering your ears. So I’d take that off, and I would have the boys put—called “watch caps” or “balaclavas.” Well, he caught wind of that, and really, really, um, really, kinda hit the roof, and was determined that he was just going to kinda ruin my military career off of that, and, uh, the thing about him though: he was West Point, so he knew I was a West Point, and he said, “Well, let me give this,” you know—‘cause a lot of folks were really kinda rooting for me saying, “No. this guy is little bit kinda on the wild side maybe, but he’s really, really good at what he does, and so give him a chance.”
So what he did is like, “Okay, Lieutenant Sawyer. I’m gonna go on a mission with you, alright? And I’m gonna see if you’re as good as what people are sayin’.” And so, um, so he showed up and—and, of course, we have all our equipment, you know? For example, I would carry two radios, in order to communicate with higher headquarters, plus also my—my soldiers that[sic] were all spread out all over kind of Korea.
Dunn
Mmhmm.
Sawyer
And, um, so between all that equipment, it’s maybe 70-80 pounds of weight, and so he showed up with just his little—this kind of thing, with his water and his radio, and said, “Okay, Lieutenant Sawyer. Let’s go,” and I’m like “Sir, where’s—where’s all your equipment?” And he’s like, “I got my Jeep tailing me, so, um, don’t worry about me. You just show me what ya got.” So, um—so I’m like, “Okay.”
So I— told my platoon sergeant “Alright. Sergeant Iver[sp]. Get ready. Um, we’re gonna climb the tallest mountain I can find,” and, um— and so we did, and, um, a lot—a lot of it was climbing on our hands and knees, and it took most of the day to climb the mountain, and we got to the top, and then we set up camp, and, um—and then I deployed all my different scouts, and—and, um—and basically, we did such a good job that the colonel changed his mind, and, um—and so therefore, um—but then the next continuation of that is that the Rangers came recruiting to Korea, and, um, all my friends were like, “Rangers. That’s—that’s the pinnacle. We wanna go. Um, we wanna be a Ranger.” so, like, “Let’s go, Curt.” and I’m like, “No. I have only about a month left in Korea and I already have orders.” I’m gonna go to Fort Smith, Arkansas, with a—it’s called a “Joint Readiness Training Center”—the JRTC. I’m fine with that. I’ve come to grips with that. I’m kinda looking forward to it. I’m not really much interested in this Rangering stuff, and so they’re like, “Well, at least come along with us.” And, um, so I went with them, and I interviewed with the Rangers, and then, um, eh, strangely enough, I was the only one that—that was accepted, and was offered, um, an invitation to join the Rangers, and so once that happened, I thought, Okay. Well, I guess this is too good an offer to refuse, and so I ended up going to Savannah with the 1st Ranger battalion.
Dunn
Okay, and what was your job in the 1st Ranger battalion. What was—what did you do exactly?
Sawyer
Yeah, um, yeah. Uh, Rangers are—are part of [United States Army] Special Operations [Command], and so my job was a platoon leader to lead, and—and their big platoons, so it’s roughly 55, um—55 men, and, um, our job was different things: to raids, to do ambushes. We would—we would parachute in most of the time and—and do our—do our mission, and then get extracted. um, sometimes, it would be fast strobing—it’s called “fast strobing,” where you have a helicopter that comes in, and then basically, you jump out, grab the rope, and—and you slide down, and jump out of the way, and the helicopter keeps moving like this, so you go, and you kinda just go, and you assemble and move off.
Dunn
Mmhmm.
Sawyer
Um, so ambushes, raids. Um, a big part of it was, um, airfield seizures—airfield—airfield takes downs, which is actually pretty cool, ‘cause we had a special vehicles, that, um—special vehicles Land Rovers, that were made just for the Rangers, that would fit into the airplanes. So the [Lockheed] C-130s [Hercules] and the [Lockheed] C-141s [Starlifter] [sniffs]. Um it—it’s called “Jeeps” and “bikes.”
So, uh, [laughs] it’s pretty cool. So you’d drop the ramp of the—of the aircraft, and then you’d drive your Jeeps up there, and we also had dirt bikes, and, um, our job was, um, once other members of the platoon would go in—jump in, and secure the airfield, make sure there was no debris on the runway—We would come in, drop the ramps, disembark, drive off, and then establish blocking positions, so that the enemy could not retake the—the airfield. So different things. Yeah.
Dunn
And, um, uh, did you see any combat at all?
Sawyer
No.
Dunn
No?
Sawyer
No, I did not. When I was in Korea—Korea—since Korea has just kind of a—kind of a special mission—because we’re at peace, but we’re not really—um, I did not go to the First, um, Iraq War.[5]
When I was in Ranger School, um—I remember in January of ’91, we were doing a patrol at Eglin Air Force Base, and so we had just jumped into our—our rubber boats, called “Zodiacs” or “RB-15s,” and we were doing a mission. It was the last mission of that phase of Ranger School, and we were all just really tired and really weak, and, we just wanted to be kinda done with it—just done with it, and, um, course, it’s night. All the—all the missions you do in the military are—are at night, um, and so we had just pushed off, and we were just about to start rowing, and then this big ol’ colonel—this big ol’ colonel that[sic] I have never seen before—he must have of weighed 250 pounds—came running and jumped into our—our boat, and then, we—we could see just enough in the moonlight that he looked like he had some rank that kinda outranked us, or we were a little bit different, and he was listening to a radio, and that’s when we had first started bombing. That’s when we first went into Iraq, and he was listening to it and said, “Alright, Rangers. This is for real now. We’re goin’ to war. Every single one of you.” you know, gave some colorful adjectives, um, “Will be over there, um, inside of two months. So you better that this seriously,” which we already were, But, um—and so we were momentarily kinda pumped, you know, because when you’re in the military and that sorta thing that we’re doing, you kind of—you wanna go into combat, you want go where the danger is, but then after that, we were mostly worried about this big ol’ colonel was just gonna make our jobs harder to row, and—and, so, um, that’s what we’re mostly worried about.
Dunn
Um, did you stay in touch with your family, while you were over there?
Sawyer
Well, um, that gets in the story of my wife. So do you wanna hear about this? [laughs].
Dunn
Yeah.
Sawyer
I won’t tell you all the details.
Dunn
[laughs].
Sawyer
But, um—so when I graduated from West Point, my parents sent my best friend and I to a trip to Cancún, and so, um, we had to go to a travel agent. My mother, for some reason or another, got so upset with our normal travel agent. So we said, “We’re just not gonna go to her anymore. We’re gonna go fine a different travel agent.”
So back then you didn’t really have the Internet. You couldn’t pull up your—your PDA and see where the—we just went driving, and so we saw a “travel agent,” and Mom said “That’s it. That’s the one.” [sniffs] And so we walk in there, and there was this really, really pretty girl with really, deep green eyes, and I’m like, Hello. I didn’t say that.
Dunn
[laughs].
Sawyer
I was thinking that, right? And, um, so we sat down, and she arranged it, and I’m looking at her, and I’m thinking Wow, you know? Um, I—I—I think, um—and you can kinda tell, she kinda was mildly intrigued with me—not overwhelmed—but mildly, and so, um—and so when I get back from Cancún, I’m gonna come back and I’m gonna ask this—this lady out, Right? And so then when I came back, um, I—I remembered her, and I had every intention, and then I end up meeting this other girl, who actually was a cop in Miami[, Florida], who was also a lawyer, but she put the law thing on the side, and she wanted to work a cop in one of the most dangerous areas of Fort Lauderdale[, Florida], and so I got kinda sidetracked with that nonsense for about five months, until was finally able to get outta that—get out of that. That was really not a good relationship.
So then I got my orders to go to Korea, right? And, um—so I had to fly commercial, so I went back to the travel agent, and then when I walked in, I’m like Hello. I—I kinda, like, forgotten [laughs] all about her, but then when I saw those pretty green eyes, I[sic] like, Whoa, you know? And it was a mess. I was young, right? We were all young, and, um—and so then, I ask her out, and, um, so we dated for a week, and then I went to Korea, and the way Korea is, back then, you really don’t come back, and there really wasn’t a whole lot of e-mail back then. Um, so, we wrote. We hand wrote letters, back and forth, and she saved every single of them. She still has them. We’ve been married 22 years. She saved every single one of ‘em, and I was—and I was faithful to her, um, until about eight months through, and then—and I know this sounds funny—I mean, [inaudible— I met the colonel’s daughter. Literally, I met the colonel’s daughter, and, um, [laughs] and so, um, started dating her, and so I wrote Lisa [Sawyer]—my Lisa—a “Dear Lisa” letter, you—you know? And bought a 12-pack, and got liquored up, and wrote it, and she saved that doggone letter
Dunn
[laughs].
Sawyer
[laughs] And she still has that doggone letter. So alright—and anyways, so I’m like, “Sorry. Met the colonel’s daughter. It’s been nice knowing ya.” we only dated for a week. What’s the big deal, right? And, um [sniffs]—and that was that. So the colonel’s daughter came back—she was in Texas. I came back, and, um, thought everything was good, right? Unbeknownst to me, while I was I Korea, my parents took Lisa up under their wings, and really—they really like her, and so they stated to take her to church with them, and—and really kind of mentored her, and developed this close relationship.
So when I got back I said, um, “Dad and Mom,” uh, you know, “Lisa and I are no longer together.” “Well, what happened?” So I explained it all, and they’re like, “Well, that’s no good.” um, “That’s not the way to do it. We’re not happy with—with that, but that’s your decision, but you do not do that via a letter.” I’m like, “Alright. I’ll call her.” and they’re— “Nope. You gotta go see her and tell her face to face that you’re sorry.” And, um, and but you’re formally— I’m formally ending the relationship. They’re pretty old school. Um, I respect that now. At the time I was like, Ugh.
So I call Lisa up, and said “Lisa, this is Curt. Um, I—I wanna come see you.” She hung up on me. So I went back to my parents, and said, “Hey, I’m off the hook. She doesn’t wanna talk to me.” They’re like, “No, no, no.” [laughs]. “You’re a Ranger. It doesn’t work that well. Figure out a way.” So I called her back, said “Lisa,” you know, “The way my parents are. They won’t get off my back, until I come see you. Can I come see you? Just, eh, five minutes. Don’t even have to walk in the door. Just need to see you, check the block, then my parents are off my back. Help me out.” She was like, “Okay. Come over.”
So I went over to see her. She opened out, uh—the door, and I’m like, Hello, you know? The—I know, and, um, she ended up inviting me in. so, um—and so the long story short of it is: um, I broke it off with the colonel’s daughter, and then Lisa and I started dating again, and we got married six months later, and, um, so even with all that nonsense of how that started out, um, eh, she’s just been a blessing, and I’ve been absolutely faithful to her for 22 years, and she’s just more than I deserve. So that was kinda that.
Then the colonel’s daughter, right? So she was flying into Orlando, but flying out of Fort Myers. So I still had to go pick her up, and she was pissed at me. She was pissed. So I went to pick her up, didn’t speak a word for like three-quarters of the trip, and then the floodgate’s going, “How could you do this?” I mean, and, uh, I’m like, “What can I say? I’m sorry. I know I—it’s on me,” you know? So then, I put her on the plane and—and that was it. No more drama.
Dunn
[laughs] Okay. Um, what did you do when you—after, with your wife and—meeting her—what did you do after coming home from Korea and after you got out of the service? Like, what did you do afterwards?
Sawyer
Yeah, um, when I came back—so I did the Rangering thing for a while in Savannah, and, um, deployed quite a bit. Did a lot of, um—did a lot of trainings—did a lot of training. Really enjoyed it, really enjoyed the Rangers, and really enjoyed the Army. Um, When I was at West Point—even though I really appreciated my West Point experience and I’m very proud of it, very proud of the mission it has, and what—the impact it continues to have—but I said, You know, if the Army is anything like West Point, then I want nothing to do with it. I’m just gonna do my time, and I’m going to get out, and, um, the Army was completely different from the West Point, for the most part, and, uh, then I got out, um, from West Point into the Army, I—I tried all the stuff that I was taught. You know, it’s gotta be formal and—and all this sorta thing, and they laughed at me. Like, “Get over yourself, Lieutenant. That’s just not the way it works.” Well, I’m like, “Okay. How does it work?” “Just be yourself, just lead the men, just lead, alright?” I’m like, “Oh, okay. Well, that’s great.” so I scrapped all this stuff. It—it really wasn’t scrapping all the stuff, but it was truly being a leader and taking charge, and, um—so yeah, um, therefore, I really, really, um, really enjoyed the military. Um, really enjoyed what the Rangers did and what they stood for.
Um, Lisa and I got married while I was still in the military, and then um, we wanted to start a family and that sorta thing. So, um, decided to get out, and then after that, went into the, um—the private sector. Worked for three Fortune 500 companies for 14 years, before I came to UCF.
Dunn
Now, you really seemed to enjoy the Army. What was your most memorable experience? Or something you really enjoyed in it? Like, what was—like maybe a good story, or hanging out with your friends? What was something you really, really enjoyed?
Sawyer
Hm, hm.
Dunn
It can be multiple. It doesn’t just have to be one.
Sawyer
Yeah, you know, I—I really, um—when I was with the Rangers, um, we de—we went and, um, trained with the French Foreign Legion, um, in Corsica, France. So, um, three companies of the, um—of the batta—um, three platoons of the company went to Belgium, and they did their training, and my platoon was selected to go and train with the Legionnaires, and, um, that was really cool, because not many military—not many American units are able to do that—to lay claim to training with the French Foreign Legion, which, when you’re in military circle, that’s—they’re well-known. They’re pretty hardcore. Um, Rangers—we considered ourselves hardcore, so it’s, —it was kinda cool for two hardcore entities to get together and train together.
They trained differently from us. Um, by that, I’ll give an example. We were running a live fire, and, um—in France—and kinda showing them American tactics, and right in the middle of that—American tactics—the—the military officers are very much involved in that—coordinating, that sorta thing. My counterpart—my French counterpart pulled me off the side and said, “Hey, Curt,” you know? He didn’t call me Curt. It was Lieutenant Sawyer. “We gotta go over here and do lunch.” I’m like, “What is that?” [laughs]. “What do you have in the basket?” And he pulled out a loaf of bread, and he pulled out some cheese, and he pulled out a bottle out a bottle of wine/ and he was kinda just wanting to sit up on that p—hillside and just kinda watch it all, and I’m like, “Thank you for the offer, but I can’t do that. I got live bullets flying down range, and it’s a very dangerous situation, and I need to be…” so he—he was—was just different tactics, and the other thing I would say that’s kinda interesting is that we—we actually parachuted with them, you know? They had these old planes, and we looked at the plane—My Rangers all looked at the plane, and were, “We’re gonna jump out of that thing?” It’s called a [Transall] “C-160.” It looked old. It was old, and, um—and they were like, “Yup, and we were like, “Okay,” you know? And so we waited, and we sat there on the tarmac out on the airfield, and we waited and we waited, and we’re like, “Where are the pilots?” and they’re like, “They’re still, um, having lunch.” and so they were inside having lunch, and drinking wine, and kinda getting half crocked. So when they came out, they were kinda a staggering a little bit, and, um, I’m like, “We’re not gonna jump with these guys. It’s—it’s a little bit…”
Plus, there’s a thunderstorm coming, the wind was picking up. When you—when you jump out of airplanes, the one thing you don’t want to do it jump out when the wind is blowing too hard, because you can’t control were you land, and, um—and basically they said, “Well, I thought Americans were tough,” you know? “You gonna let a—a little wind, a little wine kinda…” so, of course, we had to, and so we went up and—and we jumped, and, um, it was really, really windy. What they do is they throw a—it’s called a “dummy.” Um, it’s—it’s kind of, you know—it’s a stuffed—supposed to simulate a—a man—a grown man, and they throw it out, and then, wherever it goes, they adjust where the jumpers go out, and generally, you—the best case scenario: you throw the dummy out and the dummy just goes straight down. This time, he threw the dummy and the dummy went wick with the wind, and we’re like, “Whoa.” And so we jumped, and, um—and—and the wind is just taking us haywire, and, um, outside the compound—the compound was rimmed with—with [inaudible] or wire, and all that sorta thing, and, um—and as we’re going down and—and thinking, Well, this is gonna really kinda be painful, I saw my platoon sergeant just go fwoomp. He just was dropping like a rock, and I’m like, Whoa. What’s going on with that? And so I looked at him, and he figured out a way to really kinda make his parachute drop a lot faster. Basically, pulled his risers down, put his feet in ‘em, pushed them down, and it made him just go down. So I’m like, Let me try that. So I did it. So he and I were the only ones to land kinda where we were supposed to, and all the rest of the boys landed in the wire, or on the roofs, and on trees, and all that, and it took us the rest of the day to clean us all up, but nobody got hurt, and, um—so yeah. Things like that. Just kind of hardcore training, and, um, strong relationships, and, um, just standing ready to kinda serve our country, whenever we were called.
Dunn
And you said you made a lot of friends at West Point. Um, do you stay in contact with people from West Point? Or any people from the Rangers, as well?
Sawyer
Yeah, I do still. Some, you know—over—over the course of 20 years, you know, things drift, people change. That’s one things we really noticed is that we’ve changed. My wife and I really changed, and so, um, what used to interest us, just in terms of likes and—and [inaudible] and that sort of thing, they really—not so much anymore, so—inevitably too, but, yes, we have kept in touch with some of my classmates. Some of them are still in. some of them are now getting to the point they’re—they’re, um, becoming generals, brigadier generals—which is kinda cool, ‘cause, you know, we remember each other from just doing spirit missions at West Point, and getting hazed, and just doing silly things, and getting trouble over it, and that’s[sic] the memories a lot of us have, and now they’re—they’re national leaders, you know? A lot of my classmates have gone on and are part of the NSA [National Security Agency], and CIA [Central Intelligence Agency], and FBI [Federal Bureau of Investigation], and—and, um, into politics, and—and really had done well for themselves. So, yeah. It’s kinda cool to keep up with them. Um, Facebook, obviously, we see a lot. A lot of my classmates have children that are now at West Point, so, um—so, yeah. It’s kinda cool.
Dunn
Um, has[sic] your experiences in the Army impacted your life?
Sawyer
Sure. Um, inevitably. One: it was just, uh—I think with anybody that that’s in, it’s just a special time. It’s just a really special time, because you’re so focused. One: you—I don’t think you will find anybody—you will—it will—rarely, that you will find someone that doesn’t really, really strongly believe in the mission of what we did, and so a lot of times, what we do—we go into the business world, we go in the corporate world, we—we get jobs in that sorta thing, and say, “Well, what’s your mission? What is your purpose?” and well, if you’re in the corporate world, it is to make somebody else money. It’s to make money. So you—you put that and you stack that against serving and honoring and protecting my country. Well, it’s kinda hard to compare with that. So when you put that—people strongly believe in that—then everything has a greater sense of urgency, just in terms of training, and—and awareness, and wanting to—to hone your craft, In order to be able to stand ready, when you’re called
So, yeah. It’s just kind of a special time, and, um—and certainly, some of the characters—the—the discipline—discipline, and the focus, and, you know—and the—the mentality that you’ll never give up, ‘til you accomplished the mission, you know? The mission manifests itself in many different ways, depending on what you do, but still, at the end of the day, still an objective or a mission, and the military just teaches you how to be creative in how you’re going to figure out how to do it.
Dunn
Okay.
Sawyer
So that makes sense?
Dunn
Yes, yes [laughs].
Sawyer
Okay.
Dunn
Um, well, um, we are getting to the end. So, um, would you advise anyone else, um, today to enlist? Since you enlisted, would you advise anybody else who would like to enlist that it’s a good thing, a bad thing?
Sawyer
Yeah, I think it’s a great thing. You know, there’s[sic] two different ways about going about it. One is through the officer, um—through the officer channel. The other is through enlisted, you know? And so each have its attractiveness for—depending on what people’s goals are.
Dunn
Mmhmm.
Sawyer
You know? So I always wanted to do the officer thing, just because I wanted—I wanna be a leader, you know? You—you’re either a leader, or you’re kinda not. So, if you’re a leader, you kinda wanna be right in the middle of things, and—and you have more impact as an officer, generally. Um, um, I—I know as an NCO—a non-commissioned officer—you can still have that, but it takes longer to get that so, but certainly, as enlisted, I think that’s a very noble profession. Um, and it certainly helps with the GI Bill, and benefits, [U.S. Department of] VA [Veterans Affairs] care. A lot of folks don’t think about that from an early age.
Dunn
Mmhmm.
Sawyer
But once you serve in the military, you have access to VA—Veterans Administration care the rest of your life, and, um, that’s kinda a bid deal, and a lot of the other benefits that come along with it. So that’s not the primary reason why you should join, but certainty, I think it’s part of the consideration, and, um, the other is: there’s not a whole lot of pensions around anymore. If you do your 20 years in the military, then you get a pension, and, um—so, yeah. I would strongly encourage folks that[sic]—that[sic] are really, truly want to serve their country to—to consider it, and—regardless whether it’s Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines, Coast Guard—all that. I’ve never been one to say, “Well, it’s gotta be Army only.” Yeah. We all serve.
Dunn
Uh, is there anything else you want to talk about? Any stories you wanna tell us? Anything that comes to mind?
Sawyer
Hm, no. I don’t think so.
Dunn
No? Okay. Well, I would like to thank you for sharing your story with us, and myself, and the UCF community, and we will be in touch with you once the copy of the interview is done.
Sawyer
Okay. Well, thank you.
Dunn
Thank you.
Sims
Okay. Today is March 12th, 2014. I am interviewing Gordon Pierce and Ms. Trina [Pierce] Cothrin, uh, who served in the United States Navy. Uh, Mr. Pierce was an aviation metalsmith. Uh, Ms. Cothrin was an aviation maintenance administrator and yeoman. My name is [Roger] Jordan Sims. We are interviewing Mr., and, uh—Mr. Pierce and Ms. Cothrin as part of the UCF [University of Central Florida] Community Veterans History Project and as research for the creation of the Lone Sailor Memorial Project. We are recording this interview at the [Central Florida] Research Parkway in Orlando, Florida. Uh, Mr. Pierce, Ms. Cothrin, will you please start by telling us when and where you were born?
Pierce
I was born in Buffalo, New York, in 1930.
Cothrin
And I was born in Jacksonville, Florida, in 1958.
Sims
What did your parents do for a living?
Pierce
My parents worked for the State of New York. My father was, uh, in charge of the warehouse for all the supplies for a mental hospital, and my mother was a nurse.
Cothrin
And my father was, uh, a Master Chief Petty Officer in the United States Navy—Navy, and my mother was a full-time, uh, mom.
Sims
Uh, do you have any brothers and sisters?
Cothrin
I do. I have, uh, three brothers and one sister. Uh, my oldest brother, uh, Tommy Foreman—he was actually stationed at, uh, McCoy Air Force Base, Uh, when it was an Air Force base, and then, uh, my younger brother Bruce [Pierce] joined the Navy. He and I joined the Navy together on the same day. Uh, He was in boot camp before I did, but we, uh—our paths crossed while we were in boot—boot camp together, and then later, Uh, when I was stationed in San Diego[, California], he came to San Diego for school. Uh, and then, Uh, when my husband and I were stationed in Pensacola, he also was subsequently stationed in Pensa—Pensacola. Then I have a sister named Tina [Pierce] and a younger brother, James [Pierce]. I don’t think I said my brother’s name, who enlisted with me, and that’s Bruce.
Sims
Okay. Um, when did you both decide to join the Navy?
Cothrin
My brother and I?
Sims
Both you…
Cothrin
Okay.
Sims
And Mr. Pierce
Pierce
I joined the Navy in 1948, after I graduated from high school.
Cothrin
And, uh, my brother and I, uh, decided to join the Navy in October of 1979. Uh, uh, you know, he, uh—he had just finished high school, uh, the previous summer, and, uh, we both just decided to do it together. Um, I mean, I—I dunno what—is that enough?
Sims
Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
Cothrin
Okay. Good [laughs]. I don’t know how in depth you want me to go.
Sims
No, I just…
Cothrin
Okay.
Sims
Whatever—Whatever you’d like to tell us.
Pierce
[clears throat].
Sims
Um, where did you both attend boot camp?
Pierce
I attended boot camp in [Naval Station] Great Lakes, Illinois.
Cothrin
And I—here in Orlando, Florida.
Sims
What were you trained for, uh—for your career in the Navy?
Pierce
I was trained as an aviation metalsmith in Memphis, Tennessee, and I spent, uh, um, about three or four months there, waiting to go to school. then I went to nine weeks of school to be an aviation structural mechanic or aviation metalsmith.
Cothrin
And I, uh, was an aviation maintenance administrator. I went to school in, uh, Meridian, Mississippi,[1] uh, and that was a six-week self-paced course that I finished in a month.
Sims
Uh, when did you both begin your time at the Naval Training Center Orlando and how did that come about?
Pierce
I can’t remember.
Cothrin
Okay. I’ll talk to mine
Sims
Okay.
Cothrin
And then I’ll help him with his. Uh, I went—started boot camp in December of 1979 and I finished up in, I believe, it was March—February-March timeframe—of 1980, and subsequently went to San Diego, California, for a month, and then, uh, went to Meridian, Mississippi, and back to San Diego.
My father, uh, was stationed in, uh, NAS [Naval Air Station] Key West, and in 1970—’74, we—we moved to the Orlando area for a twilight tour. My fa—grandfather had passed away and, uh, we moved up here to, you know, be with my grandmother, right?
Pierce
Pretty much.
Cothrin
Okay.
Sims
Uh, what did you know about the region, uh, militarily or otherwise, before coming to Orlando?
Pierce
We learned quite a bit about it, because I had been stationed in Sanford, at the, uh, Naval Air Station [Sanford] there, for a number of years, and then I went down to Key West for shore duty, from that sea duty drill, and we came back up here, because we liked Central Florida.
Cothrin
I—yeah, I lived here. So [laughs]…
Sims
[laughs].
Cothrin
I knew the area.
Sims
Um, how long did you both spend at the Naval Training Center?
Cothrin
I only did the, uh—spent the time there during boot camp, and my father was there for—from ’70…
Pierce
[19]75 to ‘77.
Cothrin
Was it ’75? or ‘74?
Pierce
I think it was ‘75.
Cothrin
Okay.
Sims
Uh, when you first arrived, what were your first impressions of the area?
Pierce
Same old place [laughs].
Cothrin
[laughs] I was in high school, uh, so—I mean, it was okay [laughs].
Sims
What were your first days at the Naval Training Center like?
Pierce
They were spent primarily training out to become a Company Commander at the Recruit Training Center [Orlando], and, uh, we went to school I think for six weeks, and we learned how to give lectures, and how to march sailors around, and so on and so forth.
Cothrin
Well, for me, it was, you know [laughs]—that first day, you know, you’re getting all your gear and, uh, you’re learning how to be a sailor, and, uh—so it was interesting [laughs].
Sims
Uh, what were your primary responsibilities while at the Naval Training Center?
Pierce
I was the Correctional and Instructional Standards Division Officer, and we were, more or less, like a quality control unit. We would visit the various classrooms, and make sure the instructor was following the lesson plan, and completing all the things he had to do to get the point of the lesson across to the students.
Cothrin
And, for me, I was a recruit. I was there to learn.
Sims
Um, what was your overall impressions of the recruits and their training during your time at the base?
Pierce
I was impressed with the quality of all the young men and women that were brought into the Navy, and I thought the recruiters were doing a heck of a good job. There were very few people that[sic], uh, fell out, during my time as a Company Commander, and, uh, it was a great experience. I really enjoyed it.
Cothrin
Um, I, uh—you know, once you get past that first initial shock, you know, and you—you get into your training group, I think everything went well. I, you know—I, uh, ultimately enjoyed the time I spent there. Um…
Sims
What kind of social life existed among the recruits? How often were you allowed to go off base, and what places did you visit locally?
Cothrin
Uh, I don’t think we were allowed to go off base until our training was completed. Uh…
Pierce
Well, in the middle, wasn’t there a two-day weekend?
Cothrin
Uh, no, I think the only thing we got to do was go to the visitors’ center and y’all were allowed to come visit us. That’s where the parents and families come—came, at the time that I was there. I do believe.
Pierce
Okay, yeah. I remember that.
Cothrin
Okay, and, uh…
Pierce
That was about right.
Cothrin
Right, because we were—Bruce—Bruce went into basic training in November, and then I went in in December. So over the Thanksgiving holiday, he was there, and then, over the Christmas holidays, we were both there, and that’s where that one picture came from, where we’re all four there on those picnic—at those picnic benches.
Pierce
Okay.
Cothrin
Yeah.
Sims
How did your training experiences shape your relationships with the other recruits in your class?
Cothrin
It was a team-building experience. It—it, you know—it drew you together. Um, you know, taught you how to work together, uh, to accomplish goals.
Pierce
The—the whole criteria for the Recruit Training Com—Command, As far as recruits and Company Commanders were concern—concerned, was to build them into a team, and it was 180 people on a team.
Cothrin
It was a lot.
Pierce
Something like that, and, uh, that was the—the goal was drill into them that they had to work as a team. They would clean the barracks, they would march, and they would do all things together, you know, as a team, and it—it was a rewarding experience to see them develop.
Sims
Who did you both interact with on a daily basis?
Pierce
Uh, there were people who were, um—hey would come around and they would take the—the recruit Company Commander would take the recruits out on the Grinder, and he—there were observers, and they would mark them—see how the training was going, as far as marching and things like that were concerned, and they would come back and open ranks, and do an inspection, and—and it was all very, very formal and, uh—what else do you want?
Cothrin
Okay. So, uh, my daily interaction was, uh, with our, uh—our, uh—what do you call them? Our, uh…
Pierce
Company Commander.
Cothrin
Our Company Commanders, and our, you know—our CPO [Chief Petty Officer] and then our—of course, our, uh,—the other recruits, and then you also interacted with, uh, other instructors, depending on where you were at. Whether you were in weapons training, or some other safety training, or—but for the most part you were with your Company Commanders, you were learning how to fold your clothes, put away your clothes, um, and…
Pierce
Make your rack.
Cothrin
Make your bed a certain way. Uh, you were always having inspections. Uh, you know, how to wear your uniform, uh—let’s see. We went through firefighter training, and, you know, gas mask training—those kinds of things. They put you through your paces. You had your swim test, you know, uh, [inaudible], you had to float in the water for five minutes, uh, you know, you had to be able to, uh, swim from one end of the pool and back, you know? But, uh—so I don’t—I honestly don’t remember everything that we do. I do—I do remember the weapons training, the swim test, the marching, the folding of the clothes, the, you know—the bed inspections. You know, you’re getting up every day at 5 o’clock in the morning. Uh, you know, going to breakfast, lunch, and dinner. You march there, you march back. You know, they always had somebody up there, you know, letting you know the instructions. You had 20 minutes and 20 minutes only to, you know, get through the line, and eat your meal, and back to wherever it was we met to, you know, march back to wherever we were going next.
Sims
Uh, what do you remember about the instructors at the base? And what were your impressions of them?
Cothrin
[inaudible].
Pierce
I remember them all as being very professional, and they were t—their goal was to set an example for the recruits, [inaudible] in dress and...
Cothrin
Mannerisms.
Pierce
Mannerisms, and conformity to the rules and regulations. Look sharp, you know? Haircuts, and so on and so forth.
Cothrin
I would agree with him. Uh, the two, uh, Company Commanders that I had were, you know—they were there to set the example, as well as enforce the rules, and, you know, guide us—guide us through the process, and, you know, test us more, test us less, you know, push us harder where we needed to be pushed.
Pierce
And answer all the questions [laughs].
Cothrin
Yes [laughs].
Sims
What was the hardest thing you remember doing at the Naval Training Center?
Cothrin
Um…
Pierce
For me, it was learning how to stand in front of a class of 180 people and teach them how to do something, you know? And, uh, I wasn’t really a formal instructor. I was a hands-on aircraft mechanic, you know, and I was taken from that environment and put in front of all these people, and, uh, it was a very different environment for me, so it was kind of a struggle at the beginning, but I worked my way into it, and I ended up liking it very much.
Cothrin
I would say for me, uh—not necessarily the hardest thing, but, you know—you get there and you don’t know what to expect, and so then it’s learning to, uh, achieve the things you need to achieve in the time you have to do it, and So, you’re learning at a very rapid pace, uh, and, you know, uh—eh, so as—I don’t remember anything being [sighs] so terribly difficult. it was just a matter of learning it.
Sims
Uh, what was the moment you felt most proud at the Naval Training Center?
Pierce
Graduation.
Cothrin
I would agree.
Pierce
When your company pass and review, in front of the reviewing officers and the assembled guests and so on and so forth, it was kind of a proud moment.
Cothrin
It marked the end of the training cycle also [laughs]. You were done [laughs].
Sims
Can you tell me a story of a time at the Naval Training Center that you will never forget?
Pierce
Not really [laughs].
Sims
Not really [laughs].
Cothrin
[laughs] Well, I remember the swim test part. Just floating there, and the sky’s blue, and you’re watching airplanes, and they, uh—and their, uh—whatever you call the smoke thing that goes by, and, you know, that’s what I was doing. Sitting there, you know—floating there, thinking about—I was like, Okay, as they ticked off the minutes, you know, to complete the test, but, uh—I mean, other than that, um, uh, I, you know—the comradery that, you know—that you had. I mean, once we graduated, we all dispersed, you know, a hundred different ways. Um, I think only one person that I went through boot camp with, uh, went to San Diego—I mean, he went to [Naval Air Station] North Island. So, um…
Sims
How would you describe to USS Blue Jacket, and what was its function?
Pierce
It was used to familiarize the, uh, recruits with, uh, how confined the living spaces were aboard ship and various aspects of shipboard living, and, uh, it was very helpful. It was a—it was a very, very, very large training aid that was very useful in getting your point across.
Cothrin
Didn’t we do battle station drills and those kinds of things on it, as well? I…
Pierce
I didn’t.
Cothrin
I, uh—yeah. I, you know—I don’t—don’t really remember. I—I think we did some sort of drills on the ship. Uh, It wasn’t, eh—it was more than just familiarization with a ship. They took us on board. We did things on it. I just don’t remember what.
Sims
Uh, what was the official purpose of the Grinder and what was its significance to you and the recruits?
Pierce
The Grinder was a very large piece of ground, where as many as nine different companies could get out there and march around, and not—not get involved with one another, if the Company Commander was paying attention [laughs].
Cothrin
[laughs].
Pierce
But it was a big area, and, uh, it was very hot in the summertime and kind of cool in the winter time, but, um, it worked very well.
Cothrin
Cold and wet. I—I mean, because we were out their marching in the cold and it was raining usually, but, uh, it was—it was all about marching out there. I think we did PT [physical training] out there.
Pierce
It was also used as a—if somebody was goofing off within the company, you’d tell them to run around the—the Grinder a couple of times as a—it worked off their exuberance, you know?
Cothrin
[laughs].
Sims
Uh, what other types of training went on at the base?
Cothrin
The—the [Naval] Nuclear Power Training Command was there. Uh…
Pierce
You mean other facilities? Or other things that we taught?
Sims
Well, you have the basic boot camp recruit training.
Pierce
Right.
Sims
And then what other types of training would also go on, like the Nuclear [Power] School?
Cothrin
Like the NTC part of it? Do you remember what else was out there, other than nuclear training?
Pierce
No.
Cothrin
I don’t know. It wasn’t…
Pierce
But there was instructor training…
Cothrin
Yeah[?].
Pierce
And peripheral things like that, to where—to support the Recruit Training Command.
Sims
Uh, what were other areas on the base that were of particular importance to you or the recruits, and why were these places important?
Pierce
Well, there was the Firefighting School, which was very important, because, uh, firefighting aboard ship is a[sic] immediate thing that has to be done and done well, and quickly, and thoroughly. I—I was always impressed with that, and there was the gunnery range.
Cothrin
[inaudible]. We went somewhere.
Pierce
They had a…
Cothrin
Yeah.
Pierce
As I remember here, it was indoors, but in Great Lakes, where I went through boot camp, it was outside.
Cothrin
I believe it was indoors. I agree with you there.
Pierce
Yeah.
Cothrin
Yeah, I mean, I agree with him. The firefighting, you know—you go through the firefighting, uh, class, and one of the films they, of course, show you is the fire on the [USS] Forrestal, and that’s something that I think is, you know—they carry though. They still—I think they probably still use that as a training aid today. Uh…
Pierce
Probably.
Cothrin
Yeah, I remember the—what’s the oxygen—the liquid oxygen. I remember, Uh—I mean, that was pretty gross, and they showed you a film, uh, with regards to liquid oxygen and what can happen to you if, you know…
Pierce
If it spills on you.
Cothrin
Yeah.
Pierce
It will freeze you.
Cothrin
Right.
Pierce
Very cold.
Cothrin
So, uh—okay [laughs].
Sims
Uh, what was graduation like?
Cothrin
Um, for me, it was, you know, uh, the marching, and the passing in review, and you know, the, uh—the end of boot camp, and then the beginning of the next, uh, stage of my career in the Navy. Uh, so it, you know—it was being excited and being sad that you’re leaving, you know, the people that you got to know, and then excited to move on to the next thing, and Pride, you know, that you passed. That you got through it.
Pierce
For me, it was saying “Hello” to a lot of different people, where every recruit wanted to introduce you to their parents, to their loved ones, or whatever, and it was, uh, an emotional day.
Sims
Uh, what did you do for the Navy upon leaving Naval Training Center Orlando? Did you receive specialized training after your time at Naval Training Center Orlando? And if so, where did that take place?
Cothrin
Um, I did not go to A School upon graduation of boot camp. I went directly to a squadron. I went to VC-7 [Tallyhoers] at, uh, NAS Miramar[, San Diego], California. It was an [Douglas] A-4 [Skyhawk] training squadron. Uh, and when that squadron decommissioned, I think the, uh—not even—less than a year—maybe ten months later, I then went to A School in Meridian, Mississippi, and then, uh, went back to, uh, VF-124 [Fighter Squadron 124] an [Grumman] F-14 [Tomcat] squadron at, uh, NAS Miramar, and...
Sims
Were either of you ever in active warzone?
Pierce
What?
Cothrin
An active warzone. Have you ever been in an active warzone?
Pierce
I was over in Vietnam on the line for about three years.
Sims
Um, can you tell me about arriving in the warzone, and what impact that experience had on you?
Pierce
Well, you work 12 hours on duty and 12 hours off duty, and that just went on continuously. There were no weekends. There were nothing—you spent 30 days on the line, and then you’d go for a week in Olongapo[, Zambales] in the Philippines for liberty, and, um, it was pretty arduous and, uh emotional at times, because you’d lose airplanes and so on and so forth.
Sims
Uh, did you receive any medals or citations during that time?
Pierce
I received, um—what’s the orange and green one?
Cothrin
It’s a Navy Commendation Medal.
Pierce
Yeah, and now, the green and white one is…
Cothrin
Navy Achievement.
Pierce
Navy Achievement Medal.
Cothrin
Okay.
Pierce
Yeah, I received both of those and a whole bunch of service awards from various places of—of the world: Korea, Vietnam, Mediterranean Occupation Medal.
Cothrin
North Atlantic? [inaudible]. Not—I don’t know if it was North Atlantic, but you were up there too.
Pierce
And I crossed the Arctic Circle a number of times, but I didn’t—they didn’t give a ribbon for that. Crossed the Equator two or three times—maybe four, to get back [laughs].
Cothrin
For me, I was mobilized, uh, in support of Operation Enduring Freedom. Uh, spent two years at CENTCOM [United States Central Command]. Um, after that, eight months, uh, I spent in Qatar. Uh, it was a, uh, very interesting and rewarding experience, the two years that I spent, uh, mobilized. Uh, it was interesting to go to Qatar. Uh, I—that’s the second country I had ever been to, outside the United States. The first was Mexico [laughs]—Tijuana[, Baja California, Mexico]. So, uh, it—it was interesting seeing the culture, uh, seeing the area, and then, uh, you know, like my dad said, it was, uh, generally a 15-16-hour workday, but, uh, it was a good experience.
Sims
Uh, do you both recall the day your service ended? and what was that like?
Cothrin
Uh, I —yes. So I got out of the Navy, uh, October 1, 1982—‘82 or ’81 [laughs]. Okay. ’82, because my son was born in November of ‘82. So, uh, it was a sad experience for me. I wasn’t ready to get out of the Navy. So, uh, once my husband and I transferred to Pensacola, it took six months, and then I found a billet in a [U.S. Naval] Reserve unit, and then I spent the rest of my career, uh, in Reserve units. Starting out in aviation units, and into intel[ligence] units. Um, you know, and through the course of my, uh, 29 years in the—in the Reserve, you know—active and Reserve program, uh, you know, did my two years mobilization at CENTCOM, and I, uh, had worked at, uh, Joint Task Force Forge[?] [inaudible]. I did [inaudible], uh—active duty down there with them, when we were stationed down there. So, I mean, I had a very full and interesting career. So, for you, Dad, you retired in, uh, 1977.
Pierce
Right. I think it was September 1st, and, uh—just another day, to me. No ceremony. I didn’t have a ceremony or anything like that.
Sims
Uh, what did you do after you left the Navy?
Pierce
I got a job in, uh, Sanford with a machine shop company, and they made, Uh, what’s called a “fax machine” now, but this was the very beginning, and it was a thing that went around in circles, and it printed letters, and so on and so forth. There was no vocal, but it was all—you could transmit a—a letter on this circular thing, and it went through the air somehow, and got there and…
Cothrin
Was that QWIP [Technologies]?
Pierce
Yeah, QWIP.
Cothrin
QWIP, and it was a company that…
Pierce
Went through the telephone. You had to call up, get ahold of the machine, and then you put the thing in there, and then you turn the machine on, and it would transmit the piece of paper. Very archaic, really.
Cothrin
[laughs].
Pierce
Compared to today.
Cothrin
And, for me, um, I worked two jobs. So I had my Reserve career and then I had—I worked for the Army since 1993. Uh, and that’s when I started working full-time again.
Sims
Have either of you kept in touch with anyone from the Naval Training Center?
Pierce
I haven’t.
Cothrin
No, I—me neither. No.
Sims
What values or characteristics of the Navy do you believe made an impression on your life?
Pierce
The discipline, the organization, and the orientation of doing your—having to plan out everything and having to work your way through it. It was an organizational—a very strict class in organizational responsibilities, and —get ‘er done.
Cothrin
Right. Uh, you know, I would have to say—I would have to go to, you know, uh, something similar. Uh…
Pierce
[clears throat].
Cothrin
And say, I mean, the caliber of people that were there that you worked with, uh, the things that you did. Uh, I mean, it was just a—it was a great experience. Um, I mean, I, you know, would recommend it to other people. to young folks that—if they don’t really, you know, have it figured out—what it is that they want to do, uh—spend four years in the Navy and—or any service—and, uh, see the world a little bit, and, uh, meet people from all walks of life. It’s a big melting pot. You learn a lot.
Pierce
You grow up in a hurry.
Sims
How has, uh, Central Florida changed since the time you spent here?
Cothrin
A lot [laughs]. A lot.
Pierce
Probably expanded three- or four-fold, population-wise. We—we retired in ‘77.
Cothrin
You retired in ‘77. Yes.
Pierce
So we were transferred here in ’75, I think, from Key West, Florida, and, uh, from the day I retired ‘til today, the place has—has really grown, and the population has…
Cothrin
Probably [inaudible].
Pierce
Doubled—tripled, probably
Cothrin
Quadrupled, probably.
Pierce
Yeah.
Cothrin
I think they can remember when, you know—I can remember my mom and dad talking about when [Florida State Road] 436 was a dirt road.
Pierce
Right.
Cothrin
Okay[?].
Pierce
Yeah.
Cothrin
Uh…
Pierce
It only went part way down to the airport and then it was a dirt road.
Cothrin
My grandparents—I don’t know when my grandparents moved here. Was it in the ‘50s or the ‘60s that they retired down here?
Pierce
I think in the late ‘50s.
Cothrin
The late 50s. They came down, um, from New York. So as kids, you know, we were coming—wherever we lived—because I grew up here in Florida, Uh, there was only one period of time when he was stationed outside of Florida, from the time I was born. So we’ve lived—I was born in Jacksonville. We’ve lived in Pensacola, Key West, and Central Florida. So we’ve done the gambit. So Florida—I’m a Floridian [laughs].
Pierce
The squadron I was in was stationed in Sanford, but it deployed on a carrier that was home-ported in San Diego. So it would take three days to airlift the squadron out, and then three days to bring us back. When you got home finally, it was—it was, uh—I can’t think of the word I want to say. You had to move a lot of gear around to get your job done when, uh—when you were aboard ship.
Cothrin
It was a logistics, uh, exercise.
Pierce
Yes.
Sims
What do you think is the lasting legacy of the Naval Training Center and the Navy in general in the Central Florida region?
Pierce
I really don’t know. I’m sure it has a[sic] historical impact, but other than that, I really don’t know.
Cothrin
As far as today, the impact of the base, because it—it closed in the ‘80s? ‘90s? I don’t remember when it closed. Uh, But I mean—I think it had, uh, an impact while it was here. Uh, and it—and it had an impact for some time after it closed. Um, certainly, you know, you go there and look at Baldwin Park, you know, there’s no real sign that the Naval Training Center or Recruit Training Command, uh, ever existed. I mean, there’s little, little things, and I think that’s the purpose of the whole, uh, Lone Sailor, uh, Memorial [Project]—is—is to try to bring back something here in the Orlando area to remind folks that, hey, at one point in time, there was this, uh, Naval Training Center here and Recruit Training Command, and bring back some of that heritage.
Pierce
One of the things that I remember is: on Friday, up over the weekends, maybe half a dozen companies would get liberty and the seet[sic]—and the streets were just lined with sailors, and it would—it was just amazing, and then all of a sudden, they were gone, you know? And that—that was a visual impact I’m sure for a lot of these civilians around here.
Sims
What do you think former naval personnel would like to see or be reminded of when they visit the site of the base and the Lone Sailor Memorial?
Pierce
They would probably like to take their parents or guests around and point out various things that were helpful in their training, and, uh, show the Grinder and so on and so forth, where we marched, and the various [inaudible] buildings where they went to school.
Cothrin
Well[?], they’re not there anymore though [laughs].
Pierce
Well, that’s true.
Cothrin
Yeah, I mean, I guess part of the Grinder is still there. They use it as a—there—there’s[sic], uh, park-like areas in part of it. , uh, I mean, the Blue Jacket is gone. It would have been nice if something like that had stayed, but it didn’t. Uh, and it—and I’m sure it had to do with upkeep, as well. Um, you know…
Pierce
The Blue Jacket was a model ship, right?
Cothrin
Yes.
Pierce
Okay. It was just—it wasn’t very big. It was about half as big as a destroyer, maybe a little bit smaller, but it, uh—it served as a good training aid. It was a good visual thing for the recruits to see their first ship or something like that [clears throat].
Sims
Is there anything you would like to share about your naval experience?
Pierce
I would recommend it for everybody. It was a wonderful experience, as far as I’m concerned. You can’t imagine how precise everything is—the way they start flying in the morning and end up in the evening, after dark generally. Sometimes they flying around the clock, but an aircraft carrier is one of the busiest places in the world, but every hour—hour and a half—you’re launching or recovering airplanes. That goes on all day long. Sometimes 24 hours a day, depending on what kind of a mission or training exercise you’re in. There’s always—around the carrier, there’s usually a cruiser and at least [coughs] five or six destroyers, and the destroyers act as plane guards, in case one of the planes goes into the water. They rescue the pilot, if they get there before the helicopter and so on and so forth, but, uh, before the helicopter, they were primarily the—the guy that pulled the man out of the water that was in there, but, uh, I wouldn’t trade it.
Cothrin
What was the question again? [laughs].
Sims
[laughs].
Pierce
[coughs].
Sims
If there was just anything else you’d like to share about your experience in the Navy.
Cothrin
Uh…
Pierce
[coughs].
Cothrin
Again, like my father said, I would recommend it. Uh, certainly for, you know—it’s just a broadening experience for anybody. Uh, and there’s no better way to have a job, travel, and kind of—you’re taken care of. Uh, So I had an incredible career for, uh, nearly 30 years. I retired in, uh, 2009. I went into the Navy in 1979. So, um, I loved it, um, like[?] my dad.
Sims
Well, thank you for talking with me today and for sharing, uh, your experiences with me.
Pierce
Thank you.
Cothrin
Thank you.
Pierce
[clears throat].
[1] Naval Air Station Meridian.
Miller
Okay, okay. This is an oral history of Rob[ert] Matthews, an RTC [Recruit Training Center Orlando] graduate and naval veteran. The interview is conducted by Mark Miller, graduate student from UCF [University of Central Florida], working in conjunction with the Lone Sailor Navy Memorial [Project] committee. Uh, it is March 28th, 2014, and we are in Mr. Matthew’s offices at NAWCTSD [Naval Air Warfare Center Training Systems Division], um, in[sic] the [12201] Science Drive—Orlando. Okay. Um, some of our first questions are background questions. Um. So whe—when and where were you born?
Matthews
I was born in a little town not far from here—a little town called Lake Wales. I was born in[sic], uh, May 23rd, 1957.
Miller
Okay. What do[sic] your parents do for a living?
Matthews
Uh, my father was in construction, um, and my mother was in the medical field, working as an office manager.
Miller
Do you have any brothers or sisters?
Matthews
I have four sister—four sisters. They were, um, all born in Lake Wales, as well, and two of them still live in Florida, and two live elsewhere.
Miller
Um, growing up, where did you go to school?
Matthews
Um…
Miller
[clears throat].
Matthews
The elementary school is there in Lake Wales. A little school called Spook Hill Elementary [School]. Uh, and junior high and high was Lake Wales Junior High [School] and Lake Wales High School. So it was a small town about 8,500 people.
Miller
Oh, so you were home-grown [laughs].
Matthews
Homegrown.
Miller
Okay. Uh, what did you do before entering the Navy?
Matthews
Well, I went to college for a little bit. Um, worked locally in the town there, right at the high school, and, um, after about a year of that, I decided I wanted to go in the Navy.
Miller
Okay. So you joined a year after high school, and, uh, why did you join the Navy?
Matthews
Well, [clears throat] I guess I came from a Navy family. My, uh—in a sense—my father was a in the Navy during World War II for a short period of time. My uncle was—also served in World War II in the Navy. I had a cousin that went to the naval academy. I had an uncle that flew for the Navy, as well. Uh, and I had a brother-in-law that went to the Navy, prior to me going in the Navy. He actually went through RTC Orlando, as well.
Miller
Oh, wow. So one of our questions was why the Navy over other branches, and I think[?]…
Matthews
I think I explained that [laughs].
Miller
[laughs] Yes, I think I can easily see that. Yes. Navy family. Alright. Um, so how did your family feel about you joining?
Matthews
Uh, mixed emotions, I guess. A little bit. Uh, I think they were glad to see me join such a great organization. Uh, I think, uh, my mother would have liked me to have waited and get a commission instead of being enlisted, but I was a little impatient, so I decided to go for it and do it anyway.
Miller
So where did you attend boot camp?
Matthews
RTC Orlando.
Miller
Okay, and what were you trained to do in your career in the Navy?
Matthews
Uh, I was a, uh—excuse me—an aviation Electronics Technician, uh, while I was in the Navy, which allowed me to work on the electronics on both the [Ling-Temco-Vought] A-7 [Corsair II] and [Lockheed] P-3 [Orion] aircraft.
Miller
So, uh, wha—what was your experience like at RTC?
Matthews
It was different. Um, probably the best council I got from, uh, my brother-in-law prior to going over there was: just remember to treat, uh—to treat it as somewhat of a game, and that, uh—don’t take the things that you’re being told too serious, um, and what he meant by that was—not that the training wasn’t important—it was critical for my own safety, as well as, uh, helping the country, but some of the things that you have to go through in boot camp—those stereotypical things that we have to do to make sure that we’re instilling discipline in our—in our young troops. He told me not to take that too serious, and that was probably the best council I got, uh, as I went through boot camp—was just remember that they’re sending me through certain experiences so I learn from it and that’s not really the way things are.
Miller
Well, what were some of those experiences?
Matthews
Well, um, back in those days, uh, it was important to, uh, get young people’s attention, and the way you did that was you physically exhaust them every opportunity you have, and you try to mentally change the way they see the world. So we would—we would do endless bouts of inspections, and calisthenics, and things of that nature, and it really was to try to, uh, instill discipline that maybe not all of us had when we went there. So we did some pretty silly things over—as I look back now, um, seemed awfully important to me at that point, but now, it’s— I’m not sure that having a spit shine on my shoes and my gig line lined up perfectly was, uh, the most necessary thing, but I understand the purpose of it. The purpose of it was: I learned to take, uh, great care and attention to detail, uh, to understand discipline and the meaning of it. So, uh, it seems silly, but I understand why they did it.
Miller
So what was your first impression of the base?
Matthews
Uh, it was a little confusing, uh, you know, I lived in Lake Wales, uh, which was—it’s only 60 miles from Orlando. So when I joined the Navy, uh, my first, uh, impression of being part of, uh, the Navy or [U.S.] DOD [Department of Defense] or U.S. Government was to get from Lake Wales to Orlando, I needed to go via Coral Gables and Miami. So I left Lake Wales, instead of heading, uh, northeast to Orlando, I went west to Tampa to catch an airplane to fly south to Coral Gables, to being docked there, stuck on a bus, driven back north, and I think we got on base probably about 11-11:30 at night and it was dark. Um, probably a little bit frightened, um, because, just like you see in the movies, as soon as we got off the bus people were yelling at us [laughs]. So, uh, by the time I hit the base, I was pretty tired and I was pretty scared, so [laughs] it was a good experience to start with [laughs].
Miller
[laughs]So what were your first days of service like?
Matthews
Well, it was, uh, a lot of confusion. A lot of being told exactly where to go, and the best thing to do was just listen. Uh, we were put in lines, um, wherever we went. We were—got our haircuts, our uniforms, a place to stay, were told what to do what not to do, when to do it. Uh, we were led around for the first few days. It was a good thing, because it was—it was a real culture shock for—for most of us. Um, but I—I would say that probably that—that, um—that rigor that they sent us through the first few days was probably the best way to get over that culture shock. So I didn’t have to do a lot of thinking at first. Just reacting to what they did to us, and they really did start forming us as a team. I was in a group of folks. There—there were 80 of us in our training unit, as we called them back then. Didn’t know, uh—79 brand new people I didn’t know before. Now I get to spend the next eight weeks with them and they became very close in many ways.
Miller
Mmhmm.
Matthews
[laughs].
Miller
Now—yes. You’ve mentioned to us quite a few times—I was wondering what some of the fellow recruits were like? I mean, were they from all over and…
Matthews
They were. They were from all over the country. Um, and it—it was kind of interesting, ‘cause I was thinking about this: these were people that, um, like myself—that maybe grew up in a small town. Um, that came from a fairly stable, uh, family life, to, uh, folks that didn’t have that benefit. They may have come from middle of, uh, a city—broken family. Uh, and they brought the issues with that, um, and they tossed us all together, um, from all—from all over the country. People from Florida, Texas, New York. Uh, you could almost—although there probably wasn’t somebody from every single state in my group of 80—but a lot of the states were represented. Um, and, uh, I laughingly say there was[sic], you know, 80 people with probably 90 personalities in—in that group of folks.
Um, [clears throat] some of the people handled it very well, and some of the people didn’t, and we started with 80. We didn’t end with 80. Although back in those days, Navy boot camp was not seen as one to the more rigorous—we certainly weren’t Marines. Uh, but There were people that just could not handle the, uh—the stress that we were put through, and you wouldn’t have guessed it, uh, from the first day. I think you’d have a very difficult time—maybe experienced person wouldn’t[?]—but you’d have a hard time looking around your group of folks that you’re—you first get your haircut with and first get your uniforms with, thinking, This person’s going to make it. That person’s not. Because we were consistently surprised by the people that did drop out. We thought they were the strong folks, but it turned out maybe they weren’t. So it was an interesting experiment to go through and kind of watch it.
Once more, I’ll go back to what my brother-in–law said. I kept in my mind, when this guy’s yelling at me, it’s not because he doesn’t like me. It’s just part of what’s going on. So I never like[?] let that get to me. So I was able to observe other people a little bit better, because I wasn’t too worried about my own self, I guess. So it was—it was quite an experience.
Miller
Do you keep in touch with some of these people?
Matthews
No, no.
Miller
Oh.
Matthews
Um, I can remember—of those 80 people, I can remember one guy’s name. Um, and I saw him a couple times—two or three years after boot camp, and that’s it. I remember another gentleman’s first name and that’s it. Uh, and that’s all I can remember, but the one person I can remember very clearly was our Recruit Training Commander. Senior Chief Soaper, and that was in the days that the Navy allowed beards, and Senior Chief Soaper, um, was a tall thin man, dark hair, with a goatee and devil’s eyes [laughs].
Miller
[laughs].
Matthews
And I remember him clearly to this day.
Miller
Mmm.
Matthews
30 or 40 years later, or so.
Miller
He’d probably be very proud that you said that about him.
Matthews
[laughs].
Miller
[laughs].
Matthews
He did a lot of good things for a lot of us. We didn’t think so at the time, but [laughs]…
Miller
Yeah, yeah. Um, you said that there were 80 people in—in your training group, but that was really quite a large facility. Uh, you were involved probably with other groups also, right?
Matthews
To—to some extent. Um, [clears throat] Being it was 80, it was well orchestrated, so that we saw a lot of the other units as were marching by each other. We see them in the chow hall, but you stay together as a unit. Um, when we went to the chow hall, we sat together, we ate together, and we left together. We didn’t mix, um, and not that we weren’t interested—because this was—this the first years of having, uh, females in the Navy, and—but at that time it was still segregated—that the boot camps did not mix these training units with male and female. so we were there and I—I—hopefully, someone knows the numbers of the—of training units and the training groups that they had—power cells—training units, at that time, but if I had to guess, there was 20 or 30 units going on at a time, easy, of which maybe two were female. So, um, [clears throat]—and even that was separated. So the chow hall had two sides, and I was in the side that was—it was all males. So we never even saw any females the whole time we were there, just about.
Once in a while we’d pass them, but the groups didn’t mix at all so I—I couldn’t even—I probably wouldn’t even recognize one of those people that were in a different unit, because there so separated. You go to classes together, in your training unit, um, and occasionally there may be a training event where they’d mix two units, uh, but not very often. So you really didn’t—really didn’t mix too much at all.
Miller
Um, you must have done some mixing off-base though?
Matthews
[sniffs] There was no-off base. Um, when you start boot camp [clears throat], um, you start day one, you’re in boot camp ‘til you graduate, with two exceptions: the last week, they allowed us to—they’d load us up in buses and they took us to SeaWorld [Orlando] for the day. We’re there in our whites. Uh, we’ve been given the, uh, strong instructions of how we will operate while we’re at SeaWorld, because we represent the Navy for the first time in our uniform. So we, um—we—it was very stunted, if you will, what we could do at SeaWorld.
So that was one day, and then the only other time that, uh, we had any outside access to the base was the day we graduated. We didn’t actually transfer ‘til the following day. That night we had a couple hours of military leave or liberty that we were allowed to go out of town[?], once we were in a very controlled environment. So other than that, no. when I transferred out of Orlando, I was gone. Uh, so my time at boot camp—the eight weeks I was there—one day in SeaWorld and one night on liberty, and I actually spent that with my family, because they came up, uh, and I spent a couple hours with them. So that was it.
Miller
[laughs].
Matthews
You didn’t get off base.
Miller
Hm. So what were your primary responsibilities, uh, when you were RTC?
Matthews
Um, surviving was my primary, uh, responsibility. I— was not in a leadership position at, um—at boot camp at all. Um, [clears throat] what I was supposed to do was: I was supposed to learn how to become a sailor. Uh, I was a recruit up until they told me I was a sailor, which means I had to learn all the, um—I had to learn Navy history. I had to learn Navy protocol, uh, brinks, uh, customs, the culture, etc. I had to learn firefighting, how to fix a—I had to learn flooding. Any type of ship damage they try to expose us to. Uh, gas masks, you know—how to use a gas mask, what happens if your gas mask is not working. Uh, so they just try to give us the basics of, um, shipboard life, and especially, in case of emergency. So there was signaling, there was[sic] all the basics of becoming a sailor that they taught us, How to operate a weapon, if necessary. Uh, we did a little bit of shooting. So, uh—uh, how to wear a uniform, how to maintain a uniform, and the different uniforms that go with it, um, and they’ve got a lot of basic human, uh, nature things that you—that you think you—that most people would know, but recognize once more, these people are coming from all over the United States, from many different home lifes[sic], etc. so they’re teaching you hygiene—everything. So it’s—they take a raw person off the street and they turn him into a sailor that can function on his own as necessary when he leaves. Uh, and those—that’s what my primary responsibility was—to learn these things that they’re trying to teach us.
Miller
Um, obviously, we’re land-locked in Orlando and—and you’re in the Navy facility, how did you learn onboard training and things?
Matthews
Well, I learned them on the USS Blue Jacket.
Miller
What was that?
Matthews
That was the, uh—that was the—my first ship in the Navy, and it, uh—It was located right there, where Baldwin Park is now. Uh, it was a plywood mockup of a ship, um, and it had hatches and doorways and it looked like—it looked like a ship. You marched up to it. There wasn’t a pier associated with it. There was a little bit of a gangway. Went in there and we did watch standing. Um, it—it truly was the first time that I was on board, uh, or used a Navy simulator. It was called, um—it was the USS Blue Jacket. Blue Jacket was our training manual. All sailors—that’s the—their Bible, if you will. Um, [clears throat] and we spent, uh, many hours, uh, retrieving lines, casting lines, getting underway, uh, practicing damage control drills, things of that nature aboard the ship, and this was a culmination of many, many hours and days of classroom training, where they broke down the different aspects of the things we need to do aboard the ship into smaller chunks, if you will, so we could learn those objectives for that, and they sent us to firefighting trainers. Uh, they sent us to gas mask, uh—the gas mask room, where we went to a room with our gas masks on, and they let off the tear gas, and then they had us remove the mask, so we had some prospective of what that’s—what that’s like. Uh, did some flooding training—things of that nature—repairs. Just so that when we finally did leave boot camp, we went to further training and eventually did wind up on a ship, we would be an asset to the ship and not a—not a hindrance. By no means, a fully functioning trained sailor, but, uh, far, far, uh, greater value to the Navy after the eight weeks that we showed up and needed haircuts and uniforms.
Miller
So what was the hardest thing you remember doing at RTC?
Matthews
The hardest thing was, um, [clears throat]—well, physically, the hardest thing was: we’re in Florida. Um, and fortunately I started in February, so by the time I was done, we hadn’t got to the summer. So we had a couple hot days on the Grinder. Lots of marching, where we weren’t quite up to snuff, so we spent an awful lot of time learning how to march in the—on the asphalt in the sun. Um, and we spent quite a bit of time at either attention or parade riffs in the sun, trying not to pass out from your knees being locked. Um, that was—that was a hard part of it.
Um, I think sometimes that, uh, even though, as I said earlier, I tried to keep in my mind, This is just a game, there was some lonely times, you know? Where you’re dead tired, and you see your chief and other folks have been yelling at you all day long, and you still got to shine your shoes one more time, and you’re just dead tired, and you’re thinking, Boy, is this really the—do I want to spend my life doing this? and I would—I would say, as hard as the physical part of it was, keeping that positive mental attitude that this too shall pass was kind of difficult sometimes at night. So it was probably that.
Miller
And on the flip side, at what moment did you feel most proud?
Matthews
That would be my graduation, when, um—when they played the—the patriotic music. We get to march, looking sharp as we do. Uh, we know our families’ in the stands, and we know that we’ve accomplished something. We’ve accomplished something that many people before us have accomplished and many people since, but internally, it’s—it’s something that we’ve been able to do, you know? We’ve been able to, as sailors, recognize that we do have the discipline to do the things that need to be done, and that was probably my proudest moment was—was the graduation, and seeing my folks in the stands [sniffs].
Miller
So was[sic] there other purposes for the Grinder than graduation or marching?
Matthews
If there was, I never uncovered them [laughs].
Miller
[laughs].
Matthews
So[?] that—that’s where we did our, um—that’s where we did our marching, and, um, [clears throat], you know, [clears throat] sailors don’t march. That’s what the other services tell us, but we sure—we sure faked it a lot
[phone rings]
Matthews
Um, we spent an awful lot of time trying to stay lined up with each other. Try to—uh, and really marching is just trying to operate as a team—trying to teach folks to operate as a team. You can take the attention to detail, and you can look as good as you are and you can be perfect, but if your teammate’s not, then you gotta start all over. So marching wasn’t to learn how to march. Um, I think after I left boot camp I marched, oh, for another six months when I went to school, because they’d march us back and forth to school, but once I left school, I never marched again. Um…
Unidentified
[inaudible] you want to take his[?] call?
Matthews
So, um, I—I, um, [clears throat]—the marching was, once more, one of the teaching points. Um, you have the discipline to do it. It seems silly, but it has a greater purpose. Do you have the attention to detail to do it correctly? Uh, and do you have the patience? That’s the key: do you have the patience to do this a long time? So I’m going to say that’s probably what I remember most about the—about the Grinder [laughs].
Miller
Yeah, a lot of vet[eran]s mention the Grinder. That’s for sure. Along with the Blue Jacket also.
Matthews
We did a lot of running on the Grinder. We—they—we spent a lot of time on physical fitness, and—and part of that is, um—part of the physical fitness aspects are, um—we need to be in shape obviously, but the same time, when they teach us things, they have to be able to stress us, so that when we—in a real situation, and there’s stress involved, we make the right decision.
Part of the physical fitness is wearing you down to a point where you are stressed. So they would—they would send us through running exercises and physical fitness, and then they’d get us into a classroom environment, and we’d have to start making decisions based on that, and—and that was critical to our training—to be able to say, you know what? I’m dog tired, like I said a few minutes ago, I’m tired, but I still got to shine my shoes. I still have to do this action, I still have to clean up my—my area. My rack still needs to be made perfectly, even though I’m tired and I don’t want to do it, and the only way you can get people to do that is to repeat it, repeat it, over and over again, the same thing over and over again, and even when they do it completely right, have them do it over.
So it was part of, you know—all the services have a long, long history of boot camps and what they’re trying to teach, but if you don’t understand that concept going in—this is what they’re trying to do—it can be pretty hard. You can think, What difference does it really make that the corners on my rack are folded just perfectly? You know, Come on. You’re being silly, and the people that have the hardest time is [sic] the people that push back on that. Um, Like my brother–in-law—he made sure I knew before I went in. just do it, play the game, move on, and from that, even though I was [inaudible] playing the game, I learned the importance of that, and I learned the discipline that comes with it, which allowed me I think, later on in my short Navy career, to function at a higher level [laughs].
Miller
Now, after graduation, did you immediately leave?
Matthews
No, I, um—I—I left Orlando, um, and then I—I went to [Naval Air Station] Memphis[, Millington, Tennessee] for about a year of school. Um, So I can’t remember if I took any leave between boot camp and Memphis, but if I did, I didn’t take very much, um, which is one of the reasons I was in Orlando, because, um, when I was joining the Navy—working with a recruiter—at that time, the Navy had three boot camps. They had Orlando, which 60 miles from my home, [Naval Training Center] San Diego, California, or [Naval Station] Great Lakes, uh, up in Illinois—Chicago, and I said, “Do I get a choice?” He goes, “You can always ask for—request a particular boot camp.” I said, “Great.” you know, “I want to go San Diego. I don’t want to go to Orlando. Great Lakes is to cold. Send me to San Diego.” and he said, “Alright. I can do that.” he said, “I’ll put that down. Probably a good chance of getting it.” and I’m thinking, Woohoo. I’m on my way to California for boot camp.
He said, “What you need to understand is, after boot camp, you’ll get one to two weeks leave.” I said, “Okay.” he goes, “Before you go to your next station, you’ll get,” you know, “two weeks leave.” I said, “Okay.” He said, “And if you want to go home you, you can go home.” I said, “Great.” He goes, “but the Navy’s going pay you to go from San Diego to Memphis. If you want to go from San Diego to Lake Wales and back to Memphis, you’re going to pay the difference,” and, um, you know, I was—I was pulling down that huge E[nlisted Rank]-1 pay. That’s when I decided that, it was just boot camp. I’ll go to Orlando [laughs]. So long—long answer to your question is: yeah. I did take some leave. I took two weeks afterwards, went home, um, tried to forget everything I learned. It didn’t work, and then I reported to Memphis, um, in the summer of [19]77.
Miller
Did other recruits go to the NTC?
Matthews
I believe some did. Yes, I believe some stayed there. I—I can’t recall for sure, uh, but I believe some stayed there. Yes.
Miller
[inaudible]…
Matthews
Just the sheer numbers, there must have been some that did.
Miller
Well, when you were on leave, uh, did, uh, a lot of the sailors to hang out in the area or stay in Orlando for a while? We have stories of them hanging out at [Orlando] Fashion [Square] Mall and, you know…
Matthews
Um, well, my guess is—now, in my case, when—when I was released, I could, you know—my family was right outside the gate. I hopped in the car and drove back to Lake Wales. Other folks had transportation to wait for, um, so they may have spent time at the, you know—that weekend at the mall. They may have transferred. I—I do know that, you know—obviously we know that NTC was also a training command for other boot camp. So there was[sic] probably sailors hanging out there.
and I’m supposing here, that the rules were the same as when I went—first went to Memphis, and that was: when you’re that young a sailor, if you’re going on liberty, you’re going in uniform, because we want to be able to identify you as such, because we don’t completely trust you yet. You’ve been locked up for eight weeks [laughs]. Um, there might be a tendency for you to get in trouble, so we want to be able to quickly identify you just in case, and we also want to remind you that you are part of the Navy now, and if you’re wearing a uniform, maybe that will be a subtle reminder that you need to represent the Navy proudly. Uh, didn’t always work that way, but, uh, it was a thought.
Miller
Well, we’re going to go a few years in the future and, um—and, uh—do you know anything about BRAC [Base Realignment and Closure Commission] and—and—in regards to, uh, the RTC?
Matthews
Yes.
Miller
Oh.
Matthews
Yes, I do know.
Miller
Um, can you share some of your experience?
Matthews
I’ll share what I know, because, um—what happened was: I, uh—I spent seven years in the Navy, and I, um [clears throat] —when I got out of the Navy, I went to work at the [John F. Kennedy] Space Center for about a year and a half. Then I was fortunate enough to get a job at this organization.[1] This organization was not here in this building[2] at that point. It was back on NTC Orlando.
So after ‘bout eight years, I’m back on base again. Uh, I’m not on the recruit side. I’m on NTC side. and we’re in—we’re in a bunch of different buildings, um, spread around the base, and these are—some of these buildings are so old, they were built by World War II POWs [Prisoners of War] —German POWs. Um, I—I guess we captured some POWs in submarines off the coast of Florida when they were—Operation Drumbeat. I think it was that what was going on. Anyway, they captured these guys and these guys built these buildings. So here, I’m checking in 1985 and I’m going in a building that was built 40 years ago, and they’re spread all over the base, and, um, [clears throat] unbeknownst to me at that particular time, there’s a move afoot by UCF and, back at that time, Congressman [Clarence William “Bill”] Nelson [II] —now Senator Nelson—to—to emphasize modern simulation in this brand new [Central Florida] Research Park that were in now, and so—so he was able to get 40 acres donated to the Navy. Congressman Nelson—Senator Nelson now—was able to get the building, BUILDCON built, and we moved out here, um, in ‘88. Um, my command—the command I’m in now NAWCTSD. The rest of NTC/RTC Orlando stayed, uh, on base.
Very fortunate move for us, because as, you know, history shows, in 1995, the 1995 BRAC decided that the Navy only needed one boot camp, uh, and they decided that boot camp was going be at the Great Lakes, Illinois. So San Diego boot camp was closed. The, uh, Orlando boot camp was closed, and the rest of the training command—because it wasn’t just boot camp. It was our Nuclear Power Schools, as well as some other schools—all on base—were all BRAC and were told to move elsewhere. Um, and so BRAC doesn’t happen overnight. It takes a series of years to get all the moves made [clears throat], and I often laugh, because when I—when I think about the buildings that I was in—as I said, built in World War II—we watched the BRAC process work on base, and we watched government contracting at its finest, and the NTC Orlando was a—was a very important base for the Navy. So important they invested a lot of money in infrastructure. So what they ended up having to do is they had to contractually finish these brand new buildings, so that they could then tear them down, because of the BRAC.
So, um, for those who saw the—the BRAC process, they completely leveled the base. All the buildings that were there, with a couple exceptions like the VA [Veterans Affairs] hospital and one or two other buildings. Uh, and some of the buildings they leveled were brand new buildings. I mean, they had never been occupied, but they had to wait ‘til the contract was over and completed, and then they were torn down, and, uh, I don’t know if you were around there or not, but they literally created mountains of rubble in destroying this base.
Um, [clears throat] was it a good move? I don’t know, you know? I don’t know the, uh—the financial aspects of it. I do know that, uh, boot camp at Great Lakes has turned into a wonderful facility. I was just there a few weeks ago. Um, and the way we’re tr—training our recruits now is so much better than when we were training, when I was a sailor. Um, so from that aspect of it, it has been very positive today for the Navy. Um, Could that same thing have happened to Orlando, San Diego, and Great Lakes? Possibly, but I do know the Navy has improved their recruit training dramatically, and it just happens to be located in Great Lakes, and, uh [clears throat]—so I watched the BRAC process, uh, go through. Uh, I know not—I know that the decisions made were not popular by many, but in the end, uh, I think it turned out okay.
Miller
Okay. Uh, so went to Memphis…
Matthews
Mmhmm.
Miller
For your training, and what—you trained for…
Matthews
Aviation Electronics Technician.
Miller
And then what happened?
Matthews
So after that, I was stationed at NAS [Naval Air Station] Cecil Field, which is near Jacksonville. Uh, and I was working on, um, A-7 aircraft. um, and I was there for three years, and I had a pretty good, uh—I was fairly fortunate that, in my three year tour in the A-7 outfit, I was able to work both organizational level maintenance and intermediately level maintenance, which means when I first got there, uh, [clears throat] I had some training, and then we deployed[?] aboard the ship, and I got to work on the flight deck, uh, and, I [clears throat] uh, really enjoyed it, uh—working the flight deck at night, uh, Because I was a 21 year old kid [laughs]. Uh, and I—you know, just the danger involved, the excitement involved, what you’re doing is just so, so wildly important that I just—it’s hardest—it’s the hardest I’ve ever worked in my life, But probably the most enjoyment I’ve ever had in my life—working on the flight deck for the first cruise.
The second cruise I worked in mid-level[?], which gave me a different, you know—I was more of an Electronics Technician at that particular point, because now I’m working inside the electronic boxes—trouble-shooting, not working the flight deck anymore, but I was able to do that, um, for the second cruise. So I got kind of the best of both worlds when it comes to A-7’s, and after three years, uh—at that time, the rotation for the Navy was three years, uh, sea duty, three years shore duty. So I finished my sea duty, made two cruises, um, and then I went to shore duty over at NAS Jax.[3] Um, and that was working on P-3s, and I was an instructor for Maintenance Technician and I taught them how to work on the different systems of P, and that was pretty much the summary of my career, because after that second tour, I had been in the Navy for seven years, four months, and ten days. Not that I was counting. Um, I got out and, uh, I went to work at the Space Center, and then I ended up here eventually. So is that what you’re looking for? [laughs].
Miller
Your career. Did you, um, eh—did—were you involved in operations? Or, I mean, um, did you see combat or…
Matthews
No.
Miller
Anything happen?
Matthews
No, and when—when we went aboard ship, uh, we made two cruises, and, um, it was during the period of time in our history where there wasn’t active combat going on. Um, this was—my cruises were from, uh, ’78 to ’81. Um, had a couple of incidences. The, um, Lebanon missile crisis that occurred when we were coming home one time. We had to take a detour and hang out in Libya for a while. Our pilots certainly flew in dangerous environments, especially over Libya, but I myself was never exposed, to my knowledge [laughs], to a combat situation.
Miller
Any other experiences that you have—your time in the Navy?
Matthews
I did go in the [Naval] Reserves for about four years. Uh, My P-3 background allowed me to, uh, join the Reserves. So I would go to Jacksonville once month, er—excuse me—one weekend a month, and then I would spend two weeks every year in Bermuda, which was pretty tough duty. So then, when they decided that the Navy looked at different things and decided that they were going to close their operations in NAS Bermuda, I figured it was probably a good time to get out of the Reserves. So, um, other than that, the rest of my time—other than a little bit of time working for the Space Center—has been working for the Navy here, um, at NAWCTSD.
Miller
So the Navy was your connection into, uh, NAWCTSD and everything of that sort?
Matthews
I think so. Yes. I shouldn’t say, “I think so,” because yes. It was. Because, um, although I was in the Navy for a short period of time, I got out for reasons. Um, I love the Navy, you know? I loved it then. I love it now. Um, when I went in the Reserves, I met someone that worked here, um, told him my background—the fact that I was an instructor for the Navy, had a degree in education, and all that stuff. He felt that there would be a good fit here at NAWCTSD. So he told me about this place and, up until then, I didn’t even know it existed. Um, so he was probably—well, not probably—it was because of my connection with him in the Reserves that I found out about this place, and he told me how to apply for a job, so that’s how I was able to get back here. I couldn’t have been happier. I don’t know that there’s a better place that I could have worked. This fits my personality, this fits my background, and—and it’s something that I really enjoy doing, so pretty fortunate that way, I guess.
Miller
Well, what are some of your responsibilities?
Matthews
Here? Um, well, um, my responsibilities now are, um, we have a command of about a thousand people—about 40 military, and this command is responsible for buying the training systems for the Navy. So, um, any sailor—whether that’s an enlisted sailor or officer sailor—that has to do something in the Navy [sniffs], is probably trained on a system that came out of here and the people that support it. So whether it’s a pilot, uh, flying aircraft, or it’s a Maintenance Technician that’s working on a training system—working on a trainer of their aircraft—doesn’t matter. They’ve gone through this. Even in boot camp, right now, when folks have to go to boot camp, they’re working—using training systems that came from this place.
Um, my responsibility to that is: I’m responsible for all the program managers that—that manage the programs that deliver those training systems. I also have, uh, duties as the, uh, deputy to the senior civilians, so that anything to do with the command, if you will, involving the civilians, I have a, uh, leadership role in making sure that the environment the folks have here is the best, um, environment they can have to produce great results for our Navy. So it’s—it’s two hats: responsible for the program management and also responsible for the total work force, uh—one of the folks responsible here at the—at the center.
Miller
Uh, you said that the command has a thousand people. That’s pretty large. Um, what do you think the impact is to this area?
Matthews
Uh, lots of studies been done on that [laughs]. Uh, and I’ve been fortunate to watch that impact grow. Uh, I mentioned that I was on base and then we moved out here. When we moved out here, um, [clears throat] to the building, it was mostly trees, not buildings like we have here now. Our building’s here. There’s two other buildings. University Boulevard was a two-lane road. Uh, the only close restaurant to go to was the Olive Garden on—on [Florida State Road] 50—Colonial [Drive], um, and pretty much everything you see around here has come since then, and it’s because of, not just the Navy, but our partners the Army, and the Marine Corps—and the Air Force, to some extent—all have centered their training system acquisition here. Um, we’ve been able to do that, because of our good partners, UCF. and the industry, as well as the City of Orlando, the County of Orange county, and the State of Florida have all invested in this, because they’ve seen what an engine modeling simulation really is.
So [clears throat] I would say 12-15 years ago, we were pretty busy, and we were doing—just the Navy—doing 2-3 hundred million dollars in business. Now we do about a billion every year. Uh, The Army does two to three times that every year, um, and that’s new acquisitions going out every year. Our total portfolio for the Navy is about four or 5 billion dollars’ worth of acquisitions we’re managing at one time. Because not only are we responsible for putting those training systems out there, the Navy has changed their business model in the last 20 years. In that these training systems that are out in the field for our sailors to train on, are maintained by civilians—by contractors. So were responsible for putting those contractors out there to maintain those—those, uh, devices that train. As I said—I love to say over and over again, every sailor that—in the Navy has touched one of our products. Has—has benefited from one of our products. So that’s something I’m very proud of—to be a small part of this big organization that provides that for the—for our Navy.
Miller
So the other Armed Forces are very involved?
Matthews
Yes, yes.
Miller
You don’t see that too often.
Matthews
Yeah, [clears throat] we like to brag. Ourselves and the, uh—the way this organization—this organization, NAWCTSD—whatever it was called back then—actually started in the World War II era in a little Chevrolet—use to be a Chevrolet dealership up in the [Washington,] D.C. area, [sniffs] um, [clears throat] then moved to New York, and when it moved to New York, the Army said, “Hey. We like what you guys are doing.” So in 1950, the Army and the Navy signed a memorandum of agreement that said were going work together on this modern simulation training stuff, and when we moved from New York, the Army moved with us down to Orlando, and that MOA [memorandum of agreement] that we signed in 1950 still stands unaltered, and we believe it’s the longest standing MOA between the Army and the Navy ever. So 65—almost 65 years, we’ve had an MOA that’s been unaltered, and if you’re familiar the way the Army and the Navy sometimes play together, that’s a pretty amazing fact. So we—we’re proud of that. So yes. We’re strong partners with both the Army and our Marine friends, and the Air Force as well.
Miller
And, um, just some closing questions about the [Lone Sailor] Memorial [Project] itself. Um, what—what do you think of the memorial and, you know, memorializing Baldwin Park and, you know, the Grinder?
Matthews
I think it’s a great idea. I—I—I think it’s a great idea, and I got to tell you Mike Philips s my hero, because, um, I can’t even remember how many—how many years ago it was. Oh, there. It’s up there. So 2005-2006 time frame, I was president of Central Florida Navy League here, and Mike Philips came to me and says, “Hey. I’ve got this idea. I want to put the Lone S—Sailor Memorial up in Baldwin Park, and I think it’s a great idea.” I said, “I think it’s a great idea too.” and then I—he said that it’s going to cost this amount of money, and I looked at Mike and I just—I almost laughed at him, because, like, “Mike, oh, my gosh. With[?] that kind of money, I just can’t ever see that happening. As—as great as the Navy was to this place, I just can’t ever see that happening,” and dag gummit, I’m so happy that I was wrong and Mike was right. So I’m really excited about—no—no bones about it. Mike Philips is the driving force behind this. A lot of folks have—have pitched in, and [inaudible], but Mike was the visionary that said, “This is what we need to do.” and his dream and our dream is coming true. It’s just the neatest thing that I could think of.
Miller
Have you talked to other graduates who—about this?
Matthews
I’ve talked to my brother-in-law.
Miller
Mmm.
Matthews
And he’s kind of excited about it. Um, both him and I want to do the, uh, paver bricks for, um, our— time there. Um, so—but that’s probably, you know, it—it’s—we work with a lot of people here in the building. Uh, and quite a few probably have gone through boot camp, but they’re in Orlando, but we don’t compare that much. I mean, you know, in the Navy, when you start telling sea stories, it’s about, “I was on this ship,” or “I was on this cruise,” or “Let me tell you about this liberty port.” no one ever really says, “And I went to boot camp at…” [laughs].
So that’s just not, you know, because quite—I shouldn’t say this, but quite frankly, when you show up for boot camp, the first day and you leave the last day, it didn’t really matter whether you were in Orlando, San Diego, or Great Lakes. It was all the same to you. It was marching behind the guy in front of you, classes, late nights, you know—so that stuff. So there’s probably that—that connection that sailors have with their first ship and maybe their first base, as there is with boot camp. doesn’t mean it’s not important, um, but that’s probably why folks don’t—I mean, I know there’s[sic] guys—I work with a lot of retired guys—ex-Navy guys. I couldn’t tell you how many of them went to Orlando, to be honest, you may want to cut this part out [laughs].
Miller
[laughs] No, no. All the stories are valuable—but great. Thank you very much.
Matthews
Well, thank you.
Miller
[inaudible].
Matthews
It was a pleasant being asked these questions again and give me a chance to travel down memory lane.
Miller
Okay.
Matthews
When we started, I told you I didn’t have much that I remembered, but you’re right once. You start, it just starts to flow.
Miller
Good memories. You have a nice smile too.
Matthews
Yes, thanks for the opportunity.
Miller
Well, thank you.
Matthews
Sure. Alright, and I need to sign some forms for ya?
Holtz
Three.
Grossi
Today, it is November 11th, 2014. I am interviewing Alan [R.] Holtz, who served in the Navy. He served in Vietnam [War] and helped mobilize Naval Reservists during Operation Devert[sic]—Desert Shield, and Operation Desert Storm. He completed his service as an E[nlisted]-6 rank. My name is Jared Grossi. We are interviewing Mr. Holtz as part of the UCF Community Veterans History Project. We are recording this interview at—in Orlando, Florida.
Grossi
Alright. So Mr. Holtz…
Holtz
Yes?
Grossi
Where were you born?
Holtz
I was born in Brooklyn[, New York City], New York.
Grossi
Okay. What was your childhood like?
Holtz
My childhood? It was very good. I, uh—my parents were very, very good. I had three brothers. We had a great time. I really had a good childhood. I liked it.
Grossi
You, uh—are you the oldest of the brothers?
Holtz
No, I’m the second. I have one older brother and the rest are younger than me.
Grossi
Okay. Um, what did your parents do for a living?
Holtz
Uh, my father was in the Army during World War II, but then he was—but then he, uh—he worked for a packaging company, I believe, in—in Brooklyn.
Grossi
Okay.
Holtz And my mom, uh, stayed home and raised us four kids. I don’t think she worked outside though.
Grossi Alright. Um, did—Other than your father, did anyone else enlist before you?
Holtz
Uh, my father I had a couple of uncles that were in during World War II, and that’s it. My brother tried to enlist in the Air Force, and I think his vision wasn’t good, so he didn’t—he didn’t make it.
Grossi
Okay. Um, what type of education did receive before your service?
Holtz
Uh, right—right out of high school, I enlisted.
Grossi
How old were you when you enlisted? I mean, you said it was after high school.
Holtz
Yeah, 18.
Grossi
Okay. Um, what caused you to enlist?
Holtz
Uh, it’s kind of a long story. They had the draft at that time, and people were being drafted into the Vietnam War, and it was, uh, sort of a lottery system, where would they tell you your number and you had a better chance of getting drafted, so I had a pretty good chance that I was going to be drafted. So to get a better choice of where you want to go, I enlisted.
Grossi
Okay. What did your family think of your enlistment?
Holtz
Uh, they—they were happy about it. Like I said, my uncle was in the Navy and said it was the best one of the services, even though my father was in the Army. So they were happy about it.
Grossi
Okay. Uh, what was, uh, boot camp like in the Navy?
Holtz
Boot camp—it was—it was very tough for me, because it was the first time I was like away from home, alone there, and not, you know—scared what was going happen, but I ended up doing good[sic], ‘cause I had, uh—I was in pretty good shape. So the physical stuff wasn’t that hard for me, so I—I did good[sic].
Grossi
Alright. Um, where were you stationed after completing your training?
Holtz
Uh, after—after boot camp, I went to training in San Diego, California, and the first place I was stationed was onboard an aircraft carrier, U—USS Hancock
Grossi
Okay. Uh, what was your experience when you first arrived where you were stationed?
Holtz
When I first arrived, it was—it was just very different than anything that I had seen before. Nev—I’d never been on a ship, and it was really big. Um, lot of people. You have to live in, uh—sleeping on a little bunk in a room with a lot of other people. So it was—it was hard to get used to.
Grossi
Um, what was your instructor like?
Holtz
In—in boot camp, you mean?
Grossi
Uh, yes.
Holtz
Uh, he, eh—He was good. You—first you get there, and you’re scared, and you’re—hate them and everything, but you get used to it. Then once you graduate, you appreciate what he did, you know, what he taught you, and everything.
Grossi
So you mentioned living on the carrier. What was, uh, the Navy life like?
Holtz
Well, I—I liked it. Once you get out of boot camp, you realize it’s more like a job and it’s not all going to be like you were—like it was in boot camp. So you, uh—you get used to it pretty fast. It was good. It was fun. Some of it.
Grossi
Alright. Um, was there any—what was not fun about it?
Holtz
What was not fun was the hours. You work a lot of hours, a lot of hard work, and, uh, the thing I got trained for was, uh, personnel, which is human resources. So when you work in human resources and in an office, they—the other people on the ship don’t think you’re doing anything, ‘cause you’re not out there manning the guns, or steering the ship, or anything important. Your, uh—you know, according to them. So you get volun—you get volunteered to do other work to help other departments. So it’s—it’s a lot of work, a lot of hours.
Grossi
Alright. So what were some of your other duties then?
Holtz
Uh, I worked in the—in the laundry, pressing uniforms and stuff, and, um, just, uh, security watches and stuff, go—security. Guard duty is called “watches” in the Navy.
Grossi
Um, what were the watches like?
Holtz
Uh, you get different hours, like you’d have f—a four-hour period, where you just, you know, stand guard over something or, you know, security of the ship.
Grossi
Alright. Uh, what was your assignment during the Vietnam War?
Holtz
Uh, I was in the personnel office on the aircraft carrier, and I was, uh, in support of an air squadron, where they—the, uh, pilots would fly off the carrier and do whatever they had to do over there, and just their support, like their—make sure their pay, their paper work got done, you know, transfers, retirements, whatever they had to do. All the office work.
Grossi
Okay. Um, tell me about your, um, Western Pacific [Ocean] and your Mediterranean [Sea] cruise?
Holtz
That, uh—well, the Western Pacific was while I was on the aircraft carrier, and where they would go off the coast of Vietnam for a while, and then after that, they would go into different ports. So I got to see a lot of the world over there. It was—it was really good. The Philippines was my favorite place.
Grossi
Oh, what made it your favorite place?
Holtz
Uh, just that the people are very—they’re very friendly. They’re very nice. They—they support, you know—they supported the military. Met a lot of nice people there, and also the, uh, beaches, mountains, everything—just a beautiful place to relax, after being out at sea for a long time.
Grossi
Okay. What was the typical day like during this period?
Holtz
A typical day? Uh, like I said, there’s—there’s[sic] long hours, and your—Besides the regular office hours, which is—they try to make it eight to five, but then you’re on call and other things come up, so you end up staying there a lot longer or being called in the middle of the night, and then, if you had one of those, uh, watches or some other duties you had to do that—they don’t take the hours away from your regular office work. You still have to be there. So some days you’d be working without any sleep.
Grossi
What was the food like?
Holtz
The food was—was actually good. I know people complain about it, but it was—it was good. You had a lot of choices. You got—you don’t have that much time to eat sometimes, but the—the food was really good. They did a—they did a good job.
Grossi
Um, what would you do to entertain yourself at times?
Holtz
Uh, they had different activities, and s—you know, sports. ‘cause we would like—‘cause when I’m on an aircraft carrier that has a big flight deck, so during the times that they’re not, uh, landing and taking off aircraft, they’re—use it for sports, games, and they had movies, and they—we would get our mail stuff, and they didn’t have the Internet back then, but…
Grossi
[laughs].
Holtz
We could make phone calls and send messages.
Grossi
Okay. Did the Navy change after the Vietnam War?
Holtz
Uh, it cha—Yeah. It changed a lot. A lot of things changed.
Grossi
Could you tell me about some of the changes?
Holtz
Uh, well, see, it seemed during the war, they were more relaxed about, you know, haircuts, uniforms, A lot of things. Uh, even—even drug use was pretty prevalent during the Vietnam War, and they didn’t—seemed like they really cared that much, and it went from that to the zero tolerance policy pretty quickly. You know, I guess they realized it was getting quite out of hand [laughs].
Grossi
[laughs] Um, tell me about the Naval Reserves.
Holtz
They—well, after— after my first four years, I got out for a few months. was going back to school, but then I decided to go back in and I went into the—it was called Training and Administration of the Reserves program, Where I’d work at Reserve centers and air stations, just training—training Reserves, and supporting them, doing there paper work, and keeping records and things.
Grossi
Alright. You said you went back to school. Um, what’d you go back to school for?
Holtz
Uh, I—I went back to get an AA [Associate of Arts] degree, which I did, you know, start. When I got out, I started going full-time, but then I went back in the military and went just part-time ‘til I finished then.
Grossi
Alright, and then you said you wound up going back in? Um…
Holtz
Yeah.
Grossi
Why’d you decide to do that?
Holtz
Well, I got married, and then I was going to have a kid. So I thought that would be—I thought that would be a good, uh—good career to have, since I liked it a lot for the first four years. So I decided to go back in and make a career out of it.
Grossi
Okay. Um, what was your job in the Reserves?
Holtz
Um, tt was still office work. It was, um, personnel, but, uh, helping with the training of Reserves. Like the Reserves that would come in one weekend a month, and they’d get trained. The—the person—the administrative ones—I would help train them, and also keep all there records and everything for all the Reserves. You know, transfers, retirements, promotions. Everything they do.
Grossi
Okay. Um, how did moving up through the ranks change your responsibilities?
Holtz
Uh, it changed a lot. You get a lot more responsibility pretty quick[sic] from when you first go in and just—I made it all the way up to E6, which is, uh, supervisor. So it’s a lot of responsibility, because you have a lot of other people to worry about and make sure there doing their job as well.
Grossi
Okay. Uh, what was one of your most memoral[sic]—memorable days throughout your service in your career—in the serving career?
Holtz
Uh, most memorable days? Uh, I guess, uh, being on a ship and traveling. You know, any one of those days, when you’re—you know, you work hard, but then when you finally get into a port, they give you a lot of time off to do what you want and relax, and I like that part of traveling. Seeing new places.
Grossi
Traveling must have been fun. Um, what were some of the things you do when you um, would dock at ports?
Holtz
Uh, they would have—they would have tours available, you know, they’re trying to encourage you not to just go out to bars, like some people did. Um, so I didn’t do too much of that. I went on a lot of the bus tours and they had events scheduled for us. Like you could go help, uh, different charity events, go help, like—I remember one time, we painted a church or helped this, uh, shelter for people. A lot of things like that, where you can help the community too. They didn’t want us to just go out there and have fun and leave [laughs].
Grossi
[laughs] Um, did your receive any awards?
Holtz
Yeah, I’ve got a lot of—a lot of different medals and awards for different things. I don’t even remember them all.
Grossi
How did you help exactly in Operation Desert Storm and [Operation Desert] Shield?
Holtz
Uh, well, that—at that time, I was at a Reserve center, and they mobilized some of the Reserve units to send them over there to—to, uh, well, fight, or set up things, whatever, and so we were—when you’re in the Reserves, they have these drills all the time about mobilizing the Reserves and calling them into active duty, and you think it’s never going to really happen, but that was the real thing. We had to mobilize them—and I think it was about three hundred people from our Reserve units—and get them ready, get them there orders, paper work and everything, and travel arrangements, and send them over there.
Grossi
Alright. You said there was[sic], uh, drills and you actually wound up having to do them. Um, did the drills you feel help? Or was the actual event…
Holtz
Uh, the actual event’s a lot different than—it—it helped—it—the drills helped you prepare for it, but then when it actually happens, they—there isn’t time to actually to do it—there wasn’t time to actually do it step-by-step the way you plan. You know, Set up the incoming—set up the tables, set up the—what forms they’re going to need. So it—it worked out a lot different than you planned, but you still got it done.
Grossi
Okay. Um, did your experience in Desert Storm and Shield differ from Vietnam?
Holtz
Uh, yeah. It was a lot different, ‘cause I was just at the Reserve center, and—and preparing these other people to go where I—I—In Vietnam War, I was actually on the ship, right off the coast there, and even though I was working the office, I was more, you know—closer to the action that was going on, supporting the people, but, uh, for that for that—for that operation, I was just at the Reserve center, and getting them ready to go there. So it seemed like it was further from the actual thing.
Grossi
Okay. Um, what kind of activities did you do while off duty? Um, I know you mentioned you—you’d go on tour and stuff…
Holtz
Yeah.
Grossi
During the dockings. Um, was it just—I mean, uh—I guess when you’re off duty, what did you do?
Holtz
Oh, just—well, if I’m in a different—At the Reserve center or at the…
Grossi
Uh, I—just In general
Holtz
Well, if you’re…
Grossi
When you were off duty.
Holtz
Well, when it—when it—it’s different when you’re off duty overseas. I would just, you know, travel, see, you know—See what I could find, enjoy the scenery and new places, but once I was at Reserves center, Reserves center is in the—in that program, I was back home. So I was married and had kids. So I was just doing normal, you know—normal daily life, and it was more like a regular job, than when you’re on a ship.
Grossi
Did you visit back home often?
Holtz
Yeah, I would. Yeah, my parents were still in New York most of that time, so I would—I would fly home whenever I could. Get vacation. They gave you a lot of time off in the military, when—when they can.
Grossi
Um, when you were back home, what did you do for work or just entertainment then?
Holtz
Oh, spend time with my parents and my brothers, and visiting, mostly.
Grossi
Um, did you still keep in contact with any of your friends you made in the Navy?
Holtz
Uh, I did for a while, but it was hard to do that, ‘cause so many people get transferred, and you don’t see them again, and—So I lost track of a lot of them, but there was a few that I—that I still kept in contract[sic] —contact with.
Grossi
Okay. Um, could you tell me about some of the injuries you received?
Holtz
Well, first injury—first injury I got—when I was working on that aircraft carrier, I worked in the laundry, and pressed my hand down on…
Grossi
Oh.
Holtz
On the steam press. So that’s how I got that injury. So I call it my “Vietnam War injury,” but not really. It was on the aircraft carrier, working in the laundry, and got—got that hand burned, and some other things: I just hurt my back while I was there, so— but nothing too serious. I’m still able to work.
Grossi
Okay. How did, uh, the events of 9/11[1] affect you?
Holtz
How did it affect me? I was—I remember being very angry when it—when it happened, and wishing I was back in the military, so I could go do something about it, you know? Help fight whoever was doing it.
Grossi
How was the transition from the Navy life into the civilian life?
Holtz
Uh, it was very hard, at first, to—when you’re looking for a job, and you try to relate what you did in the military to civilian job. So you work in an office and, you know, you find out that all you’re qualified to do is be a secretary, or something like that. So actually, I was, uh, a medical services secretary, when I first got out. That was the first job they had at, uh, Humana[, Inc.] health care.
Grossi
Okay. Um, how—how has the civilian life affected you?
Holtz
Oh, well—well, I got used to it pretty quickly, and I had other jobs since then, and then finally found UCF [University of Central Florida], which I like.
Grossi
Okay. How have the—the way the civilians treated you over the years—how has that been?
Holtz
It’s—it’s been good, mostly. Most people—most people, you know, they appreciate what you did. they—there’s, you know, this preference for veterans, and a lot of jobs that you go for, you know—to at least get you the interview to see if you’re qualified to get the job, but, uh, most people treat you—treat you good[sic]. I never had anybody who didn’t.
Grossi
What lessons, from your time in the Navy, do you consider valuable?
Holtz
Uh, I think I learned a lot about working, do, uh—doing the best job that you can, getting it—trying to get everything done, so you can enjoy your time off, and, uh, doing a good job working with other people—Team work. A lot—a lot of things you learn there, you know, still relates to whatever job you have outside.
Grossi
Do you have any, uh, unusual or funny stories in your time of the service?
Holtz
Um, no, not really [laughs]—not really that I can think of. I’m sure there were some.
Grossi
Um…
Holtz
Well, now, there’s some unusual things when I was working at the Reserve centers. There sometimes—sometimes, they’re the only military in the area. So they’ve let you—make you volunteer for a lot of different things, like security and different things that you don’t need security for. They just wanted the local military to be there, and doing funerals, and things that I didn’t like to do.
Grossi
Okay. Um, is there anything else we missed or you would like to talk about?
Holtz
Um, no, not—not really. Not that I can think of.
Grossi
Alright. Uh, do you have any messages or lessons you’d like to pass on to the young—the young people?
Holtz
Oh, about the military? Just that it—it is a good career. Uh, the benefits are great, now that I’m retired. I did—I did, you know, 20 years. Now that I’m retired, it’s really worth it to, uh—the benefit you get, through retirement, the medical care, everything. So it’s worth it.
Grossi
Alright. Uh, questions?
Unidentified
[inaudible].
Grossi
Okay. Um, well, I’d like to thank you, Mr. Holtz, for your time. I and the UCF community really appreciate you coming out today and telling your story, Um, in the—in the short time in the interview [laughs]. Thank you.
Holtz
Okay.
Unidentified
[inaudible].
Holtz
Thank you.
[1] September 11th, 2001.
Hazen
Cool.
Ennis
Cool.
Hazen
Alright. I get to be fancy at the beginning.
Ennis
There you go.
Hazen
So just so you know. Alright. Today is Wednesday, February 26th, 2014. I am interviewing Marc Ennis, who served in the U.S. Navy. Mr. Ennis attended recruit training at RTC Orlando and after 21 years of service returned to Orlando to work at NAWCTSD [Naval Air Warfare Center Training Systems Division]. My name is Kendra Hazen and I am interviewing Mr. Ennis as a part of the UCF [University of Central Florida] Veterans History Project and as research for the creation of the Lone Sailor Memorial Project. We are recording this interview in Colburn Hall at UCF in Orlando, Florida. Mr. Ennis, will you please start us off by telling us when and where you were born.
Ennis
I was born in Port Hueneme, California. February 9th, 1973.
Hazen
And what did your parents do for a living?
Ennis
Uh, my dad was actually in the Navy, but when we were born he had, uh, just retired. So, uh, my only recollect—recollection of the Navy was, uh, living near it, and, uh, he actually worked for the State of California, uh, for the, uh, gas company, and, uh, my mom was a stay at home mom, uh—didn’t work. I mean, she worked, [laughs] but in the—in the home.
Hazen
Did you have any brothers and sisters?
Ennis
I have, uh, three brothers. Uh, I’m a twin. A fraternal twin, right?
Hazen
Okay.
Ennis
And, uh, two older brothers, One of which is, uh, still in the Navy up in Jacksonville, and my—the—the oldest brother—he’s in, uh, Pensacola.
Hazen
What did you do before entering the Navy?
Ennis
So, uh, I was a student, and, uh, actually I, uh, graduated high school and, uh, joined the Navy, uh, that summer. So…
Hazen
The summer of what? What year?
Ennis
Uh, well, I guess it was the summer of [19]89. So I actually graduated, uh, during the summer of my junior year. So I never attended my senior year, and, uh—so I had enough credits, so I just joined the Navy.
Hazen
Oh, so why did you join the Navy?
Ennis
Yeah. There was a couple different factors, but I was getting married and had a baby on the way, and, uh, that’s what really started everything off.
Hazen
And was there a reason why you chose the Navy opposed to any of the other branches of service?
Ennis
o, I guess it was, uh, because of my father, but for the most part it was, uh—didn’t really think about any of the, uh—the other services. So yeah.
Hazen
Did, um—besides your dad, was there anyone else in your family who served in the Navy?
Ennis
Um, yeah. So we, uh—since my dad moved around a bunch before I was born, uh, we didn’t have a lot of family, but my uncle on my mother’s side, he was in the Navy, and then my, um—my wife’s grandfather was, uh, also in the Navy back, um—uh, I mean it was a pretty long time ago. Back in the ‘40s-50s. Uh, but that didn’t really, um, you know, make my decision to join, I guess. Now, as I think about it, and in fact, my mom was in the Navy too which is pretty unique. She was a WAVE [Women's Auxiliary Army Corps], and when they—when my mom and dad first met, uh, they were both in the Navy, right?
Hazen What’s a WAVE?
Ennis
It’s a, um—it’s a Woman Active—I’ll have to look the acronym up, but it’s basically a, uh—um, a woman, uh, sailor that was doing administrative duties, but they were still part of—they were very vital to the war and everything. Uh, but she was yeoman…
Hazen
Mmhmm.
Ennis
Which is a clerical type person, and, uh, but she was actually modeled on a three cent stamp—her and three other women.
Hazen Hm.
Ennis
Yeah, that’s uh—I’ll send that to you—the details on that, but that’s pretty cool.
Hazen
Yeah, thank you. Um, how did your family feel about you joining the Navy?
Ennis
So, uh—no—no real, uh, heartache, and no real like, “Hey. that’s great.” Just kind of indifferent.
Hazen
Um, and where did you attend boot camp?
Ennis
So I attended boot camp here in Orlando, and I was living in Pensacola, Florida, when I joined. Actually it was Gulf Breeze, Florida, but...
Hazen
It was called Freeze, Florida?
Ennis
Gulf—Gulf Breeze.
Hazen
Gulf Breeze. What was called Gulf Breeze?
Ennis
It was the city.
Hazen
Oh, okay.
Ennis
So it wasn’t Pensacola, but—yeah.
Hazen
Gotcha. Um, and you said you began your training at RTC [Recruit Training Center] Orlando after graduating?
Ennis
Right. So I, uh—there was a couple of months, uh—so I graduated that summer. I guess it was maybe August-September. You know, I took the final class of summer school, got the paperwork signed off, and then, uh, took maybe a month or two off, and I was, uh, reported to board December 9th of 1990.
Hazen
Okay, and, um, you were from Florida at that time, but, um, what did you know about specifically the RTC Orlando region before you got here?
Ennis
Uh, nothing. Yeah. So…
Hazen
And…
Ennis
It was kind of a whirlwind, right? You know, you hear about all this stuff, “Hey, you’re going to boot camp here.” But for the most part, you know, it was, uh, get on an airplane, you show up, they bus you here, and then everything was a whole different world, you know? You’re, uh, taken out of the comfort zone, thrown right into, uh, you know, people yelling at ya, right?
Hazen
Uh huh.
Ennis
And 20 years ago, you know, it was a little different too, because they—you didn’t have all this, uh, kindler[sic], gentler, you know, no screaming, no cussing. It was—it was pretty hardcore, but it was good, you know?
Hazen
How long were you at RTC Orlando?
Ennis
Uh,for approximately six to eight weeks. I’m not sure exactly. I guess I graduated right around February—was it February 7th[, 1991]? It was right near my birthday. So that was kind of cool, ‘cause I turned 18, uh, you know, right when I graduated boot camp. So it was right around that day. I can’t remember the exact day, but yeah. It was pretty unique.
Hazen
What were your first impressions of the base?
Ennis
So, uh, the base—uh, we showed up at night, and then during the day, uh, we’d walk down a long, um, kind of sidewalk, and we marched everywhere we went, and, uh, there was[sic] trees. The weather was, uh, really nice. It was December. It wasn’t too cold, and, um, yeah. it was just, um—we saw a very small part of the base. I mean, we—we walked down the same street. We, uh—they had a big, uh, like marching field, right? Looked like a big tarmac—a big airport. Just a big black top, right? And, uh…
Hazen
Did that area have a name at all?
Ennis
The Grinder.
Hazen
Okay.
Ennis
Yeah, so that’s where you do all your practicing for marching, and, uh—but no. For the most part, it was, um, the same thing every day. So you really didn’t see any part of the, uh—the outside of the base, and all the buildings were very similar. Um, it was—it was, uh, very sanitary, I guess, right? So…
Hazen
And you’ve started to talk about this a little bit but what were your first days of service like? What were your first days of training like?
Ennis
Right. So—so, the very first day, you know, when we arrived here, there was a lot of yellin’, and, uh, obviously they were lining a bunch of people up from different parts of the country, and, uh, it was just kind of a shock, and, uh, for the most part it was, uh, Wow. You know? Your eyes are o—opened wide, and from then on, you just stayed busy. I mean your—you didn’t have a lot of time to think, I guess, ‘Cause they were just hitting you with you so many, uh, new things, and you were learning this, learning that. Um, so yeah. It—it wasn’t—there wasn’t really a lot of time to—to think about it, and then as you asked the question now, I guess I really hadn’t thought about it until—‘til now.
Hazen
Sure.
Ennis
You know, what I thought.
Hazen
Um, can you describe for me what daily life was like?
Ennis
Yeah, so daily life was, uh, pretty good. Very routine. You wake up, uh, I think it was about 4:30, and, uh, you did the, uh, you know—you brushed your teeth, Got all your toiletry stuff done, You lined up, They came in, Inspected, uh, the—the compartment, and then, uh, we normally PTed [physical training], uh—exercised, and then we went to classes, right? And then you’d do some— you’d go to chow—lunch, and like I said, you were marching everywhere you went, so that was a chore in itself, ‘cause we’d never done it, and, um, yeah.
So there was a lot of motivation. Uh, they used to call it, um—uh, basically, you’d get punished, right? ‘Cause you didn’t do something right. So they would take you outside on the sidewalk and line everybody up, and they’d start making you do jumping jacks or something like that. But, uh, every day was filled with, um—with something new, as far as what’d you learn and then they’d move you on to the next step, So—but yeah the routine was: you wake up, get the compartment ready for inspection, uh, get inspected, go to class or PT, and um—and that’s the funny thing about the, uh, the exercise. The exercise wasn’t as, uh—we—we had no—no exercise uniform. I mean, you exercised in your daily stuff, Right? So it was kind of unique in that way that, uh—um, everything you did was kind of an exercise and you’re always ready to, uh, do—do jumping jacks or pushups or whatever. So it was kinda—kinda cool, and then, um, yeah. You’d hit noontime lunch, hit some, uh, dinner, and then after dinner, I know we did stuff, but I can’t remember what happened after dinner. Like I said, everything was kind of a blur. It’s kind of hard to go back and to—to think about it now. It’s, uh—you know, as I see the RTC now, I mean, none—none of it looks like what I remember, but then again all the buildings were tore[sic] down. So…
Hazen
Can you tell me a little bit more about the inspections? What exactly was being inspected?
Ennis
[sighs].
Hazen
What exactly were the standards…
Ennis
Oh, yeah.
Hazen
That you were supposed to be meeting?
Ennis
Yeah, this was…
Hazen
[inaudible].
Ennis
This was some crazy stuff, right? So on your bunks—and—and they were single, uh—very, uh basic bunks that you had. You had a bottom bunk and you had a top bunk. So what they would expect is, uh, the hospital corners, right? So how you folded your sheets and they would go down to the—the biggest detail of how the, uh—the edges of the sheets were, uh—I don’t know if you had that little, uh—I don’t know. You just had to have the sheets the right way, so when it folded over you wouldn’t see that little rough edge. So you always want the smooth edge on top and then the, uh—the hospital corners had to be at a 45 degree—everything had to be…
Hazen
What’s a hospital corner?
Ennis
It’s just where you, uh, bring the excess sheet…
Hazen
Oh.
Ennis
And bring it at an angle. It’s kind of like wrapping a present, right? And you take the excess and then fold it underneath so you have real, real neat corners.
Hazen
They call it “hospital corners.”
Ennis
Hospital corners, right? And the next thing was, uh, how you fold your socks, how you fold you underwear, how—you know, your t-shirts, and then everything else had a place, right? And they’re very detailed on—on—on that stuff. Your shoes had to be shined, and, uh, yeah. So everything…
Hazen
Belt buckles, maybe?
Ennis
Oh, belt buckles? Yeah. Attention to detail for all that stuff. So…
Hazen
Um…
Ennis
And that—that was every day, right? I mean, you didn’t get a day that went by where you didn’t get inspected, and most the time, you failed the inspection, right? ‘Cause there was always something they would find that wasn’t right, and then, uh, I think there was like 60 of us that started off. So you’d have 60 people in a, uh—in a room, where you slept and you did inspections, and, uh, normally, uh, those never went well, right? So you’re—you’re always getting corrected on somethin’, and that’s kind of unique, ‘cause, uh, as you go along you start getting better, right? And, uh, less, uh—less yellin’ [laughs].
Hazen
So in that room of 60 or so, would there be one officer that came through to inspect?
Ennis
Uh…
Hazen
How would that…
Ennis
Yeah, it’d normally—you—you’d…
Hazen
Would it take a long time?
Ennis
No, pretty quick. You were assigned two recruit—recruit company commanders, and, uh—so for us, we had two chiefs. I think actually for us, one might have been a senior chief—an E[nlisted Rank] 7 and an E-8. So they’re pretty senior, and, uh, yeah. It’d go pretty quick actually. Maybe, uh—maybe a half hour. But—so the whole session though was, uh, you get inspected, they get mad at ya, they exercised ya, and then you fixed, you know, what the problems were and then you went and, you know, did classes or something like that. yeah.
Hazen
And then you talked a little bit about classes and tasks and you would do some class and then move onto the next one. Can you give me an idea of examples of…
Ennis
Yeah.
Hazen
Classes that you had to go through?
Ennis
Yeah, so a lot of ‘em were—were talking about firefighting, or different parts of the, uh—the ship. You know, how the ship operates. Um, different, uh—so—so the ship is, you know—they don’t have addresses for the different rooms, right? So you have bulkheads and they start from the beginning of the—of the bow, and that’s, uh, frame zero, and then, uh, as you go further back on the ship, the frames will increment up. So, um, you know, they—but basically the premise is, if you need to get to a compartment that’s, uh, on the first deck, right? It’s gonna be one and then the second number’s gonna be the frame number, right? So you know what—you know what level it’s on, and then the second number is gonna tell you how far from the bow, uh, the room is, and then the third number’ll tell ya how far out, uh—out it is from the center of the ship.
Hazen
Okay.
Ennis
So—so, uh, it’s a pretty unique numbering system, but it works on every ship. So…
Hazen
Sure.
Ennis
Yeah.
Hazen
Can you give me any other examples of classes?
Ennis
Yeah, so, uh, we talked about the firefighting. We talked about the, uh—I guess the, uh—the history. History was a big deal and, uh, that was kind of unique. So the Navy is big on tradition, right? And, uh, a lot of that was, uh—they’d go back and they’d talk about, you know, how the Navy was first, uh conceived, who, uh—the first ship—don’t quiz me on any of this, ‘cause…
Hazen
[laughs].
Ennis
[laughs]. But, uh—yeah. So, uh, let’s see. We had, of course, uniform standards, regulations, you know. You did all the stuff talking about pay, you know. It was just a—anything you wanted to know about the Navy and, uh, that you needed to know, uh, you’d get in those classes. Some of it was basic, um, you know, uh, classes maybe on English or math, and some of these were, you know, to make sure that the, uh—uh, people could—could beat the standards, I guess.
The other thing we did was a lot of in-prossing[sic] for your different ratings or jobs. So for me, um, they would take you to the medical—a lot of shots, right? And remember, you had to get uniforms. So yeah. It was a lot of, uh—yeah. Now—now as I start to remember all this—yeah. The first week, I guess, was, you know, picking up your uniform, you’re getting shots, you’re going to medical, and just a lot of in-processing, right? And then maybe the, uh, you know, the—the, uh—I don’t know—second, third, fourth week was a little more, you know, of the classes and stuff like that. So—but yeah. It—it was busy, and then maybe, uh—let’s see.
So what was it? Boot camp was about, uh, six weeks, and, uh, in be—right in the middle of it, they had something called, uh, “work week,” right? So what they would do is—so all the facilities on the, uh—on the base—you know, whether it was chow hall, the laundry, the admin—was normally run by the recruits with, uh, some—some other senior sailors, you know, overseeing ‘em, right? So like, uh, for the chow hall, you had your cooks who were pretty senior sailors. They’d been in for four or five, six, years, and then of course, you had your recruits that would do all the, you know, washing the dishes, you know, cleaning everything, you know, running stuff from here to there, and then, uh—so we did that at about the, uh, maybe the third week, and, uh, did that for a whole week, and then, uh, you would fall back into training—training mode. Yeah.
Hazen
And those kind of tasks were normal tasks? Not like punishment or anything?
Ennis
No, no. So—so….
Hazen
They were expected?
Ennis
Yeah, yeah. Exactly. That was part of the routines. So you would learn, uh, you know, whatever.
Hazen
Okay.
Ennis
Yeah, everything had a purpose. You may not have known what it was when you were doing it.
Hazen
Sure[?].
Ennis
But as—as—as you look back on it, you kind of see that, you know, it was responsibility. It was initiative. It was, uh, all those sorts of things as a young kid you may not have, right? And, uh—so, you know, some people did good[sic] at it and other people—other people needed maybe a little more motivation.
Hazen
Did the Navy use words kind of like that? As kind of…
Ennis
Oh, yeah.
Hazen
Key words to guide? What were some of those key words?
Enni
Yeah, so, uh—um, “Uniformity will prevail,” right?
Hazen
Mmhmm.
Ennis
Um, you know, obviously, looking sharp. “Sharp” is a—is a good one. “Professionalism.” Uh, let’s see. Um, I’m trying to think of some other ones. Uh, Yeah. Basically “teamwork.” You know, that’s—That’s another huge one that you—you’ll see, and then, the, uh—and remember, this was the first co-ed[ucational] boot camp too, so we had women, uh, that were, uh—obviously, we weren’t integrated, per say, but we had a sister company that, um, kind of had the same timeline, right? So, uh—uh, but yeah, but everyone was a shipmate, you know? You weren’t like a—or a sailor. Everything was kind of gender-neutral and, uh—so that was kind of unique, but yeah.
They really wanted you to get the teamwork and the, uh—and—and the leadership, and they promoted the idea that, you know, when you’re on a ship, you know, it’s you, right? I mean, You don’t have anyone coming in there to help ya, so If something happens, uh, it’s the crew that’s gonna, uh, take care of the, uh—the issues, whatever they might be. So—and that was the other thing—talk about history—was they used a lot of examples from the past, you know, whether it be, uh, um, back in the John Paul Jones days or the, um, you know—in World War II or—or anything like that. So it was pretty cool.
Hazen
Thank you.
Ennis
You’re welcome.
Hazen
Can you tell me a little bit about the recruits that you went through training with? What was your impression or your relationships like with the different recruits?
Ennis
Yeah, so, uh, that was pretty cool, and it’s—it’s kind of funny how, um, you know, people that don’t know each other and are from different parts of the country—But everyone has a characteristic or—or a trait, and, uh, I think the—the instructors were very good at picking out, um, you know, people for their different talents, right?
Hazen
Mmhmm.
Ennis
And then, Maybe—maybe, uh, they had some insight. but like, uh, we had an older recruit, right? I think he was like 25, and, uh, he immediately kind of, like, took charge. So they made him the, uh, kind of the leader of the group, right?
Hazen
Yeah.
Ennis
And then we had some other people that were, uh, you know—I don’t want to stereotype people—but they had one guy with glasses, and I think he was very administrative. So they made him the yeoman. So you pretty much had the same basic tasks or the basic structures like anywhere, right? You have a—a leader. You have a secretary. You have a, you know, master-at-arms, and, um—so yeah.
I remember the people that they picked were, uh—I’d kinda go Yeah. That—that’s interesting. You know, and, uh, my claim to fame was, you know, to—to lay low and don’t be noticed. So that worked out pretty well, and, uh, yeah. It was uneventful, and the memories that, you know—from—from boot camp—while—I don’t really keep in touch them.
Hazen
Okay.
Ennis
I mean, it’s a—it’s—if you see them, it’s an immediate, uh, bond, because it’s something you got—you know, you’ve been through. Yeah. It was pretty cool.
Hazen
What kind of social life existed among the recruit—recruits?
Ennis
Um, yeah. Social life? Really none.
Hazen
[laughs].
Ennis
I mean, you know, the biggest thing was there was maybe—an always kind of an underground, uh, type deal with the—with the recruits. Like if the, uh—the instructor left, then, uh, you know, the recruits would—I mean, we were breaking the rules, but you know they—they would say, “Lights out. Go to sleep.” And the next thing you know, uh, you’d start, you know, maybe talking to your buddy or, um, just kind of, you know, either, uh—just doing what you need to do, write a letter home or—or something like that, right? So I don’t think it was like breaking the rules, but you always kinda had your, uh—uh, your—your little bit of time to yourself, right? And, uh, the funny part was, a lot of people, uh, um, kinda worked out, you know? They—they, uh—‘cause I forget what time the lights went out, but there was, uh—yeah. A lot of people were—were doing pushups and exercisin’ and—yeah. I mean, it wasn’t a lot of people. don’t get me wrong. It wasn’t like they turned the lights off, the place goes crazy. It was just kind of unique, where, you know, certain people had their kind of routines and they kinda kept them. So it was kinda—kinda unique.
Hazen
Can you tell me a little bit more about the co-ed aspect of training?
Ennis
Yeah, so the—the co-ed aspect wasn’t a big deal. In fact, it was, uh, you know—I—I don’t know. Maybe—maybe I just didn’t, uh, take a lot of notice to it, but for the most part, they did what they did. Uh, we did what we did. There wasn’t a whole lot of, uh, interaction between the two groups. Uh, you know, we’d pass each other. We, uh, you know—really there wasn’t a whole lot of interaction.
Hazen
Um, did the women have a woman leader and the—the men have a male leader?
Ennis
You know, that’s a good question. Um, I think it was, uh, both. I think, uh—I mean we—I had male instructors, but I think some of the females had male instructors and I think some of the, uh, male, uh, groups had female instructors, but I couldn’t tell you for sure. I don’t think they segregated it that much, but, uh, I can’t recall.
Hazen
Were there any activities that were done together, even like…
Ennis Yeah.
Hazen eating or anything?
Ennis
Yeah. In fact, uh, um, we did have a, uh, competition week, right? Maybe not a week. Maybe a day or two, right? And, uh, it was kinda like, uh—what do you call it? Your field day, and, uh, you go out and do sports and everything, and I’m trying to think how we worked that, but I think that was one of the integrated-type deals where, you know, you, uh, um—or was that—I’m trying to think. Uh, Yeah. well, either way, I knew they were out there. I don’t think we competed against ‘em, but, you know, we competed against the different companies, right? So, uh—and I think there’s probably like 10 or 15 companies going on at one time, but I can’t remember. I can’t remember, but I know there was a lot of people. I mean, it was like a football field.
Hazen
Mmhmm.
Ennis
And the whole football field—it was probably a couple of football fields—and the whole place was busy, uh, with people doing stuff, right? From tug-of-war to sprints to, you know—I can’t remember all the stuff that was going on, but yeah. so that was pretty cool.
Hazen
Can you tell me a little bit about your instructors? Who were they and what were they like?
Ennis
Yeah, so, um, I remember I had a, uh, colored, uh, guy and his name was—he was a DCC[sic], and, uh, I want to say his name was, uh—what was his—Gibson, and Then, uh, I had a, uh— I wanna say an MMC, which was—so a DC [damage controlman] was a damage controlman, who was like a firefighter, right? Basically an equivalent of, and then we had a, uh, MMC, and he could’ve been—either way, it’s not important, and they’re both chiefs and they’re pretty, uh—a little older. You know, maybe 45-50, or it seemed old at that time [laughs], but they were, uh, business. They were business. They were, uh—they were no joke. They were, uh, uh, very strict. They were, uh—didn’t smile a lot. But, um, you—you understood that they were in charge, and, uh, they—they were, uh—they were good leaders, and to this day, I—you know, I enjoyed my time, I guess, if you—you could say that. Because, you know, you get a good leader and it really makes things easy, because there’s not a whole lot of, uh, stuff you have to think about, right? So that—that—that’s pretty good.
Hazen
What does MMC mean?
Ennis
Machinist[‘s] mate. They, um—they, uh—they do a lot of the mechanical stuff on the boat. They—they are, uh—they’re kind of like a metal worker type deal.
Hazen
What was the hardest thing you remember doing at RTC?
Ennis
Yeah, I guess it was the—I guess it was the marching, you know? I mean, that sounds crazy, but, you know, I can’t dance. You gotta have a lot of rhythm, you know? And, uh, in fact, this is a funny story. Our, uh, recruit, uh, company commander, uh—and that’s the other part. So the recruit company commander is a recruit, just like all of u, but he’s the leader of the group, right? He’s, uh, designated. Uh, you really, uh—I didn’t see too many people volunteer for it. So we went through a couple of guys, right?
Hazen Yeah.
Ennis
Uh, I think at one point, I may have done it for like an hour, you know, till I got fired, right? But the, uh—the guy that stood out in my mind that had been the leader the longest was a—a tall, uh, black man, right? and he was pretty young. He was probably about the same age as most of us—about 20, and, uh—but yeah. he had it. He—he could do the marching. He had no problem calling off the, uh, cadences, and, um, yeah. He—so he—he was—he really, I think, turned our company around, because, um—I mean that was a tough part. I mean, if you can’t march, uh, you can’t get from one place to another, right? And it sounds ridiculous, because you go, What’s the, uh—I mean, Why are we doing it? right? How does this help us run a ship or be in the Navy? But it’s just one of those things where everyone has to do it. Everyone has to do it good[sic], and if you do good[sic] doing it, you look good, right? So, um, yeah. We went from not being able to, uh, um—you know, everyone being in the same step to be, you know, doing a marching band type deal, and, uh, remember: everything’s happening pretty quick[sic], right?
So at the end of the, uh, six to eight weeks—whatever it was—uh, we looked pretty sharp. That—that was a pretty big accomplishment, because I think that the day before graduation, we have a little private, uh—not private, I guess—but the families get to come and, you know, we’ll march, uh, up and down, and it’s pretty neat, you know? So good times.
Hazen
In addition to that, which sounds like that was a—a moment of pride for you, can you tell me another moment that you felt most proud?
Ennis
Uh, let’s see. Hm. Uh, I mean, boot camp—I guess, uh, everything was just kind of go, go, go. So um, I mean, I guess—I guess pride being the—no. I don’t know. Not—not really. I think the biggest part is just the accomplishments in the little stuff that you do, and nothing’s really major. The only reason that I remember the, uh, marching was because that was—I mean, that was tough for me. I was like Man. Step. Step. What? [laughs] And then, uh—but no. the rest of it was, uh, fairly, um—I mean—I don’t know—easy or—not easy. probably isn’t the word. Maybe it’s just you take each day, day by day. So yeah.
Hazen
What was the official purpose of the Grinder? And does it have any special significance to you?
Ennis
Yeah, so—so the Grinder is where you practice most of your marching, and, uh, the Grinder—yeah. It was painful. I mean, you’re just out there forever. You’re, uh, practicing these maneuvers. You’re, uh—um, and one of the key, uh, things that we went through was: you used to have to march with these old M1 [Garand] rifles, right? or maybe they were M14s. but if you can imagine, you know, a 3-4 foot long rifle that weighs 10-15-20 pounds, and you’re holding this thing forever, you know, it gets tiring, and at some point, they decided to do away with it and, uh—right in the middle of our training, and I was thanking whoever made that decision, because that was the worst, right? So things became a little easier by not having to carry that. But, uh, yeah. for the most part, the Grinder was where you spent a lot of your time, just—just kind of learning the, uh—the different marching steps and everything. I—I’m not sure. Have you—have you ever done any marching?
Hazen
No.
Ennis
Yeah, I mean, it’s…
Hazen
Well…
Ennis
It gives a—it gives a tr—like, to the band people…
Hazen
Mmhmm.
Ennis
While they’re playing the music, and you just kinda go, Wow.
Hazen
Mmhmm.
Ennis
Those guys are really—I mean, uh—Working hard. ‘Cause it’s—it’s hard. So…
Hazen
My brothers…
Ennis
Mmhmm.
Hazen
Were in marching band.
Ennis
Yeah.
Hazen
So I’ve seen the hard work
Ennis
Yeah.
Hazen
But I haven’t done it myself.
Ennis
Yeah, yeah. Well, thank—thank goodness [laughs].
Hazen
Um, the decision to march without the rifles, Was that…
Ennis
I—I have no idea. All—all’s I know is, um—I remember classes before me and classes after me, um, uh, did have ‘em. So I’m not sure what—what the, uh—the issue was with that, but that brings up a good question of—yeah. Why? What was the, uh…
Hazen
Was it like that week that—that you’re supposed to stop marching with them? Was it something [inaudible]…
Ennis
No, I mean, most of the time…
Hazen
[inaudible].
Ennis
People kept them the whole time…
Hazen
Oh.
Ennis
So I’m not really sure why—why they stopped that, and like I said, I think they brought ‘em back too.
Hazen
Mmhmm.
Ennis
So I’m sure it was someone’s, uh, good idea, or maybe someone got hurt, or—who knows? So…
Hazen
Um, can you tell me about other areas on the base, in addition to the Grinder, that were of particular importance…
Ennis
Yeah.
Hazen
To you?
Ennis
So—so the pool was a big one, right? And, uh, that was a good time and, uh, it really amazed me by how many people couldn’t swim. That was, uh—that kind of blew my mind, right?
Hazen
Mmhmm.
Ennis
And, uh—but that— was a lot of fun, and then I remember, uh, Perimeter Room, and I’m not sure if it was called “Perimeter Room,” but it’s where we did our timed, uh, runs to make sure you’re, um—you could pass the, um—the PT, I guess, and then there was the—the gym, you know. So the gym—we worked out in there a few times. You know, I’m trying to—I guess we did have, uh, PT uniforms, but I can’t—I can’t remember putting them on all that much. I think we only did for the, uh—the out-test and the in-test. Either way, um—and let’s see.
Oh, you—you had the, uh—we had the, uh, firefighting trainer. The, um—and a lot of this I remember were— ‘cause those were, you know, the—the shooting range, where we’d have to shoot the guns. Um, the chow hall, of course, because we ate there a bunch. That was good times, and then, um—yeah. I just—I just remember this strip, you know, where the barracks were, right? It was kind of like—it almost—it’s a similar lay out of this building, you know? Kind of the long, narrow, um—I forgot how many stories it was, but you would come out of there and we walk down a—a street—marching down a street, and then, uh, based on, you know, kind of left to right, you may have some classes or classrooms, and then, uh, down at the very end, you’d have, a, uh—the chow hall, and the—the Grinder, I guess, was on the far, far right, and I can’t, you know—like I said, I can’t—if you go there now, none of it’s recognizable, and the other thing too is have you heard of the [USS] Blue Jacket?
Hazen
Mmhmm.
Ennis
Yeah, so I don’t know where that was in relationship. For us, it was right next to our barracks, but where—where it’s at now is unrecognizable, so it’s pretty unique.
Hazen
Can you tell me about the Blue Jacket?
Ennis
All’s I remember is we didn’t go on it and, uh, we took a picture in front of it, and, uh, to tell you the truth, I don’t know why we didn’t go on it. Yeah. It was kinda—kinda strange. I think maybe it was getting a little—a little older, you know? But yeah.
Hazen
What did it feel like to graduate?
Ennis
Yeah, so that was pretty—that was pretty cool. ‘Cause, um—I’m trying to think. What—what was the final thing that we did? Uh, let’s see. All’s I know is, uh, at the very end, they, uh—they bring out the flag and they start, uh, playing “America the Beautiful.” Or what was it? “[I’m] Proud to Be an American.” And, uh, yeah. So everyone got real emotional and it was pretty cool. But, uh, that’s what I remember, and, uh, I’m trying to think what—what culminated, uh, before that. You know, what—what lead up to that point, and, uh—hm. That’s—that’s kind of strange. I can’t remember what the, uh—But all’s I remember is when we were done, it—it was pretty awesome. Yeah. So it was pretty cool.
Hazen
Was there a lot of people there watching?
Ennis
No, no. In fact, it was just our group. So…
Hazen
Oh, really?
Ennis
Yeah, so—so that was, I guess, the, uh—the—the recruit phase kind of ending, right? That’s when, you know, you’re done being a recruit, and the next day you graduated, and that’s when they had, you know, all your friends and loved ones, whoever in the stands and you did the, uh, parade, the marching through and everything, but yeah. as far as a lot of people watching, for what we were doing before—I—I mean, honestly, I can’t—I can’t remember what we were doing. I mean, I can’t remember if it was drills or—hm. Yeah. I guess it’s been a long time. It’s pretty—but I do remember, like I said, when it was done, it was, uh—they bring the flag out and everyone was like “Whoa” It was pretty funny. Not funny, but it’s pretty—pretty, uh, neat to see everyone kinda, ya know…
Hazen
And you get your hat, right?
Ennis
You know, we…
Hazen
[inaudible].
Ennis
We didn’t get a hat. It was kinda, uh, yeah. Like I said, there’s no hat. There was, uh—like I said, I just remember a pep talk, the flag, the music, and then, uh, the next day, I think we, uh, graduated.
Hazen
And that took place on the Grinder, right?
Ennis
Um, no, what—what you talking about the, uh…
Hazen
The graduation.
Ennis
So the graduation took place on the grass, which, um—I’m trying—I can’t really remember where that was at either, but no. the Grinder was—was separate. So yeah.
Hazen
And then what did you do for the Navy after you left RTC?
Ennis
Yeah, so after the Navy, Uh—and this is kind of funny, ‘cause when I—before I joined, I was lookin’ at the different jobs, right? ‘Cause they have all kinds of jobs, and I was talking to the recruiter and he handed me a—a couple different, uh, cards, right? That listed the jobs and what they did, and, uh, you know, one of them was like torpedo’s mate, and so I looked at that one, and it says, “Must work in a,” uh, you know, “hot,” uh, “greasy environment,” right? So I was like I don’t want that one, and then I saw one that says—and plus, the school—the A school, which is the—the school that teaches you to do the job, it’s like in— I don’t know—somewhere—somewhere in the United States, and I see this one that says “EW,” which is Electronic Warfare, and, uh, it says, uh “Work in cool,” um, you know, uh, “dark climates,” you know, “in a—in a room with,” uh, you know—I don’t know. Anyways [sic], it sounded cool, right? ‘Cause it had the—It was Combat Information Center, so I didn’t—had no idea what it did, and then the bonus was the, uh, school’s in Pensacola. So, you know, I didn’t—that’s where I joined the Navy at, and that’s where my family was at. So I was like I’ll take that job, right? Had no idea what it did.
So, uh—and the other reason I joined the Navy is ‘cause I didn’t want to go to school, right? Which is kind of funny. So the first thing the Navy does—the Navy does after graduation is they send you back to school, right? Which is this Electronic Warfare, and it—you can imagine your—your radar detector in your car, or if, you know—you know the concept—and it picks up the emissions from the cops’, uh, radar gun. this is the same thing that—that the ship does, but it picks up the radars from airplanes, from other ships, from, you know, missiles, from whatever, and those signals are analyzed and you can actually tell what kind of car it is or, you know, what type of ship or airplane. So the whole time in school, they’re teaching you about these radar fundamentals. They’re teaching you about the propagation. Blah, blah, blah, and then they want you to memorize—like a telephone book—of all this parameters, right? And I’m not saying it—I mean, it’s rote memorization. There’s just no way around it, right? So you’d spend your nights trying to figure out how you’re going to memorize all these numbers, so if they popped up, you could, you know, say what it was. So that’s what would happen is, uh, you—you—you’d get with a buddy and figure out these ways to memorize stuff, and, uh—so yeah. We, uh, did that, and then after that, um—I guess that was maybe another eight weeks and then was off to Virginia, uh, for my first ship.
Hazen
Can you take me from Virginia somewhat quickly to NAWCTSD? Can you walk me through?
Ennis
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it’s pretty easy.
Hazen
How you got from one to the next?
Ennis
Yeah, so I did three years in, uh, Virginia, and uh, you know, the job was okay, but it was on a ship, and I saw a helicopter flying and I says[sic]. “That looks like a cool job.” I was coming up for reenlistment and I talked to one of my, uh, leading Petty Officers, and said, “Hey. This is, uh—I’d like to look at doing a different job.” He took care of me. He walked, you know—walked me through the whole process. Put a, uh, a package in, got accepted, and then, uh, for AW, which is Aviation Systems Operator—and then I get sent to Pensacola for Air Crew School, and, uh, I had no idea, but then I got sent to Rescue School—Swimmer School, which is in Pensacola, and, uh, I’m not sure if you’ve seen the movie [The] Guardian? With, uh…
Hazen
No.
Ennis
Who was it? Anyways[sic], so that’s the Coast Guard.
Hazen
Oh, yeah, with…
Ennis
Bruce…[1]
Hazen
Yeah—no. I think you’re right, and…
Ennis
Yeah, yeah. The, uh, young kid, right?
Hazen
That kid.
Ennis
Yeah, right? [laughs] So like…
Hazen
[Christopher]Ashton Kutcher.
Ennis
Yeah, yeah. Right. Exactly.
Hazen
Yeah, seen it.
Ennis Yeah.
Hazen You did that?
Ennis Right.
Hazen Oh.
Ennis
So, uh, yeah, I mean, once again everything—I mean, Hollywood makes everything look like Hollywood, right? But it’s pretty intense. I mean, you know, you’re doing stuff and you get pushed underwater and what not. So I did that then went to my first, um, Aviation Squadron in Jacksonville, and then, um, did five years there. So while—when I was on the ship, I did a six-month cruise, plus all the workups, you know, hit the Med[iterranean Sea], Um, you know—Greece, Spain, um—where else? I mean, uh, Croatia, and then, uh, you know—then I cross-rated. Then I went to my first Aviation Command. We did the same thing. Hopped on a carrier, did our six-month cruise right over to the Med. Uh, we did the [Persian] Gulf. Uh, you know. So that whole Europe and, uh, the rest of the area. Yeah. We just hit different ports in there.
Hazen
The Gulf? As in the Persian Gulf?
Ennis
Yeah, the Persian Gulf. Right, and then, uh— and then I did that for five years. Did three cruises, plus all the associative workups. You know, we did Fallon[?] detachments in Nevada, and, um, we did Andros Island, Bahamas, and, um, yeah. It’s terrible duty, but you know, you’re gone a lot, so you take, uh—you take your good points with your bad, and then uh—oh, yeah. Then I went to the wing as an instructor in Jacksonville. So I was still working with the Aviation Commands, except I didn’t have to go on a cruise, and then, uh, after three years there, picked orders to, uh, [Naval Air Facility] Atsugi, Japan, which is right near Tokyo, and, uh, went over there and did four years in Japan on the [USS] Kitty Hawk, and, uh, we hit Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, um, and, uh, did some work in the Philippines for the, uh—the work on terrorism there. They have a big terrorist cell there that many people don’t know about, and, uh, we did, um— uh, it wasn’t tsunami relief. I guess it was, uh—I guess it was typhoon relief in the Philippines, but after I left, they did do a lot of tsunami relief, ‘because that was the—the area. So, uh—and then, uh, after Japan, came to NAWCTSD, Orlando, and did four years there and retired.
Hazen
How did that assignment come about?
Ennis
The Orlando one?
Hazen
Yes.
Ennis
So, um, they have a list of assignments that you look up on a computer and, um, I said, Boy, that would be a good one, if I ever plan on getting out, and, uh, at that point, you know, it was pretty stressful. It, you know—I did the instructor duty and then I did the duty in Ja—in Japan, and, uh—so yeah. I was looking kind of for a, uh—a, um—actually, I—I loved the trainers, right? I loved the computers. So I thought that’d be a good fit and, uh, so I applied for it and it was open. So…
Hazen
And when you got here, what were your first days like at NAWCTSD?
Ennis
Yeah, it was pretty cool. It was more of an office environment, and, uh, it was very different than, uh—from the Navy buildings. I mean, even though this is a Navy building, it’s predominantly filled by civilians. So the military’s a very small part of that, and, um, but for—for the most part it was, uh—it was nice, because, um, everything was ready for you when you got there. The, uh—all the, um, computers, the—the furniture, everything was very new. Very, uh, kind of, uh, high tech, you know? There—there’s just a lot of resources available for you to do your job, and, uh, back— in the—in the fleet, you know, you may not have that. You may have, you know, one computer for five or six guys, and then, uh, there’s just not a lot of space. So space this size that we’re in, you’d have up to 30 people trying to work out of there. So…
Hazen
And speaking of your job, what were some of the things that you did? What were some of your primary responsibilities?
Ennis
So, uh—um, I guess, uh, for the aviation, the air crewman was being a rescue swimmer was the, uh, big one. So no matter when we flew or where we flew, you always had someone that had their—their gear with them, you know? You’re always SAR capable, which is Search and Rescue. So someone had to go in the water, you’d always have someone available. Um, so that was the number one, uh, thing that you did. The other part was, if we’re under way, uh, on the carrier that we were anti-submarine, uh, mission—meaning that we had a, uh, big sonar dome that would drop out of the bottom of the helicopter in a hover and you would stick that, you know— a couple hundred feet down in the water, send out a big sonic pulse, and see if you get any returns from the submarines. Uh, so that was another one, ‘cause that was pretty unique. You do that day or night, and, um, whether a sea state was 10-15-foot and the pilots are trying to stay in a hover, and, uh, so, yeah. that was pretty—pretty interestin’.
Hazen
That was—was that at NAWCTSD?
Ennis
No, no.
Hazen
So that was before?
Ennis
Yeah, so at NAWCTSD—the good thing about NAWCTSD is the needed the people from the fleet, because they would built the simulators that would act like, uh, you know real helicopters, right? So you’d go in there and you’d give them the subject matter expertise to say “Hey. This looks good,” or “This doesn’t good[sic].” Or you’d just liaison with the fleet and then go from there. So at NAWCTSD, the primary responsibility was program management or, uh, subject matter expert. So you’d kinda—kinda blur those lines a little bit, but, uh, for the most part, we were only there for 3-4 years, and the civilians have been there for a lot longer. So you’d come in and—and kind of assist them.
Hazen
Um, you might have already answered this a little bit already, but can you tell me about the types of projects that you worked on with NAWCTSD and what they were trying to accomplish?
Ennis
Yeah, so—so, the funny this is—is, uh, I transferred from Japan, right? And when I first got to, uh, NAWCTSD, I meet my boss, and he’s a civilian guy, and, uh, he’s a UCF graduate—electrical engineering, so he’s a great guy.
Hazen
Who’s that?
Ennis
Uh, Jonathan Glass. So—In fact, he’s still my boss right now. He’s probably wondering where I’m at...
Hazen
[laughs].
Ennis
But if I tell him I’m here, he’s good, and then, uh—but yeah. So I get—I get to NAWCTSD, and I just, you know, been probably gone from Japan for maybe 2-3 weeks, ‘cause I took some leave, and they—they go, “Hey. We’re getting ready to deliver a trainer to, uh, to Japan.”" and it happened to be a—a simulator—a desktop simulator of the helicopter, uh, that I just, uh, got done flying it, and, uh, so—so in Japan, they don’t have the resources for new construction and for a, uh, new trainer. So they had this, uh—this desktop, um, simulator that would give you the tactical display and all the button pushin’, and, uh, we—we ended up delivering that right back to Japan, the squadron I’d just left.
So it was kind of funny that, uh—which brings up another funny story, ‘cause you got Mount Fuji in there, right? You’ve seen pictures of Mount Fuji? Well, I took my daughters up there. I think they were eight and ten at the time, and it’s pretty—it’s a pretty good climb. It’s volcanic rock, right? So, uh, I didn’t want to be the dad that pushed them and scarred them for life. So I was being positive, but I would kind of let them do what they wanted to do, right? Meaning that, you know, if they couldn’t make, uh—um, I didn’t want to push ‘em too hard. Anyways[sic], we ended up not making the top, and the rumor is, if you don’t make it to the top of Fuji when you’re there, you’ll end up coming back, and yeah. I never believed that, but low and behold, you know, after reporting to NAWCTSD, I end up going back. So isn’t that funny?
Hazen
[laughs]. That’s fantastic.
Ennis
Yeah, it is fantastic. So, um, yeah. So basically we delivered a simulator back to Japan and, uh, that—that’s kind of what we do. Whatever, uh—so the ASW—the Anti-Submarine Warfare—Uh, the other part of, uh—I told you about the dome that lowers in the water. the other thing that we’ll do is we’ll drop microphones, and basically, uh—it’s called a sonobouy, but basically that’s what it is—is a microphone that you drop in the water, and you’re able to see the, uh, signature of the sub or whatever you’re listening to, and identify it, and if need, you know—if need be, drop a torpedo on it. Yeah. So…
Hazen
Can you explain a little bit more about what a desktop simulator looks like and is?
Ennis
Yeah, so if—if you use your car as an example, and, uh, if—if, uh, uh, all the controls from the gear shift to the steering wheel to the, uh, radio station. So all that we put on to a computer, and, uh, we try to simulate the environment. So for us, it’s the ocean mainly, and, uh, the ocean is, uh, you know—it’s pretty complex, right? And then especially when you throw sound in there, the propagation paths can get really, uh, really difficult.
So the claim to fame for us is how much, uh, simulation do you need to do of the ocean to make it realistic for the acoustics? They start talking about fidelity and, uh, you know, then, um, realism and stuff like that, but—but that’s, uh—it’s a big trade off. Because if you have enough money, you can do anything right? Well, of course, we don’t have enough money. So, uh, we—there’s always a tradeoff. So a lot of that’s compromises, right? You make compromise in the visual system, or you may have to compromise in the size of equipment. So we would make our system mobile, put it on laptops, and, uh, the laptops, you know, in it—in itself, would compromise the, um— or maybe not. Yeah. I guess compromise the visual part of it. Meaning that you’re not gonna get real good visuals, but we’re not training the pilot how to fly the aircraft.
What we’re trying to do is train the crew to work together, right? So—so each computer would be a different station. You’d have the pilot station, the co-pilot, and then you’d have your sensor operator, and all three of those, uh, computers would be networked together to, um—to talk, you know, back and forth, because in the aircraft, same thing. Uh, You’re able to split duties between a tactical display, um, you know—so if, uh—if I send a contact, via my gear, to the tactical plot, The co-pilot can acknowledge that, and then you’d get a course and speed on the sub based on, you know, uh, different positions and time. So if—if you send a position over—position A— at a certain time, and then you send over position B at a different time and you, you know—you line it up, you know, you’re gonna get a course of speed, right?
So the gear would do that for us, but of course there was always some type of, um, uh, error built into the system whether it be, you know, the contact that, um—that you’ve entered in there was maybe a little off, and, uh—so you had to comp—you had to compensate for all that, and, uh, of course, the more context you had, the—the more the error would be averaged out, right? And, uh, so all that’s happenin’ pretty quick, right? And you may have a submarine that’s sending out counter measures, you may have equipment malfunctions, you know, you may have, uh, an inexperienced crew. So—there’s[?] just a lot of different, uh, aspects that go into training. Hey[?], and remember, you know, when the contact, or the sensor, uh, data that you’re looking at is—is just a line on the scope, you know, It—it may be a line that falls at 300 hertz, and then you have to determine what that is or, you know, put a bunch of different pieces of information together.
Hazen Um, what, what’s the primary mission of NAWCTSD?
Ennis Yeah, so the primary mission of NAWCTSD and, uh—we have a missions statement, I’m tryin’ to, uh—it’s basically to support the fleet in, uh—in simulation, and, um, yeah. That’s probably the easiest thing.
Hazen
Okay, and what do you think the future holds for simulation training here in Central Florida?
Ennis
Yeah, so simulation, uh—I mean, we are the, uh, um, center of excellence for modeling and simulation. Uh, we are the Navy’s central resource, when it comes to, uh, modeling and simulation. We have a lot of the, uh, companies around the area that support the, uh—the industry, and that bring a lot of capability to the, uh—to the training, and, um, the, uh—the future, I think, is, uh—is pretty good. Just because, as new technology brings better, uh, fidelity and higher realism, you know, you’re able to kinda blur the—the concept between real and fiction, or—I don’t know how you say that.
So, If I can, uh—I mean, we’re getting to the point now where you put on the—the virtual, um, reality headset, and you’re now, as you turn and look—I mean, the—the—the screen is moving with you. So in this room, I could put on a virtual headset, and, um, it would give me the same, uh, dimensions, but of course, I could put a fire in the corner, right? And then I could react to that fire, based on, uh, where it’s at. So it’s getting really, uh, really good now.
Hazen
In what ways would you say that the simulation projects at NAWCTSD have impacted other branches of the military?
Ennis
Yeah, so I think the, uh—the impacts, uh—and I can’t say, you know, how we’ve maybe impacted, but I think the synergy of all the different components of the services working together, and the lessons learned from each of the components all kind of being centralized in this area. There’s really no, um—uh, no other place where that happens.
I mean here you have the Marines, the Air Force, the Coast Guard, the Navy, uh, all working together, and in fact, uh, we’re now starting to include some, uh, state, uh, local, and other government, uh, organizations that can take advantage of, uh, the, uh—the training and the products that we’ve, uh, built here, and, um, so yeah. That[?]—I really can’t say. It—it’s really just the synergistic effect of everyone being together and the ability to, um, learn from each other.
Hazen Thank you. Um, what would you say is one of the most valuable lessons you’ve learned from your time with the Navy?
Ennis
Yeah, so it’s going to be teamwork. You know, No matter what you do in the Navy, no matter what you do in life, uh, normally it’s, uh—it’s not just one person that makes something happen, and, uh, the other good quote that I learned was to be a good leader, you must be a good follower, right? And, uh, I can’t—I can’t, uh, say enough of that quote, because somebody always thinks, uh, that the leader has it easy, right? Well, guess what? that leader has a leader, that leader has a, you know—so it goes—it goes, uh—someone always has to answer to somebody.
So—and that’s probably the one thing that the Navy’s taught me is I used to always say, I can’t wait till I’m in that guy’s position, and then I’m in that guy’s position, and go Man, that’s a—that’s a lot of work. So—but it’s good stuff. Yeah, and—and the other thing I learned to is, uh, if, um, there’s something that you want, you know, normally, you’ll have people that’ll help you out. They just need to know that’s what you want to do. So the people aren’t mind readers. You need to talk to them. You need to let them know what your, uh—what it is that you wanna do, and, uh, for the most part, I’ve never had a—a bad command or a, uh—a bad boss. I mean I’ve had some I’ve liked more than others, but for the most part, everyone have their certain characteristics that you’ll either agree with or disagree with, but as long as they’re—what they’re doing is honorable, then, uh—then yeah. That’s—that’s easy to, you know—person to follow. I tell ya, for the most part, I haven’t seen a, uh—a bad person in the Navy, you know?
And, uh, it’s too bad when you hear a lot of the stuff that goes on, because they’re—for now, or in today’s Navy, the Navy is almost zero defect, right? And, uh, back in the day—yeah. You—you did stuff that—that maybe wasn’t, uh—you didn’t want your mom to know about, you know? But, uh, the fact is is that, um—uh, how do I say this? You were, you know—you’re doing some pretty tough stuff, right? And that doesn’t give you a pass for—for—for being, uh, bad, but what it—what it did mean was that you could, uh—you could definitely have a good time, right? And be a little rowdy, but what it didn’t mean was you couldn’t be disrespectful, and—and definitely, uh, some of the changes we made are pretty good, but some of the changes are getting a little to, uh, you know, PC, right? Too much politically correct.
Hazen
We’ve got about two or so minutes left. is there anything else you’d like to share about your Navy experience. Maybe…
Ennis
Yeah [laughs].
Hazen
Photos for the last two? Alright.
Ennis
So…
Hazen
[inaudible] And move it towards you.
Ennis
Alright. So the cool thing about the Navy is all the different experiences that you get to, uh—places you get to visit, things you get to do. In fact, uh, when I, uh— I guess it was my second cruise when I was with the helicopters. We went to Cannes, France, and they were doing the Cannes [International] Film Festival, right?
Hazen
Mmhmm.
Ennis
Well, of course, we don’t get to go inside, but we get to see everyone that walks in, so that was pretty cool, and we saw Henry [Franklin] Winkler. You know who he is? The Fonz. So we yelled to him and—and we were like, “Hey, Mr. Winkler!” And he gave us a—real, real good pep talk, but that was kind of cool, uh, but this is my buddy, and, uh, I’m actually the one taking the picture of this, and we took a—a we were in Australia, and we took the Australian, uh, Special Forces, and we were taking them up to, uh, Fasthrow[?]—and a couple of guys to go parachuting. So, this just happens to be, uh, one of the dogs they take with them and we actually, uh, lowered the dog down, and, uh—but yeah. He went flying with us so, and—and He looks to be having a good time, right [clicks touchpad].
So the, uh—the next picture—this is, um—so—sounds pretty exciting everything I’ve told you, right? Flying in the helicopters, huntin’ the submarines, uh, doing the rescue swimming, and all that, but a lot of it is—just imagine driving in your car or around the block, you know, like a hundred times. Because with the, uh—the systems we have in place now on the airplanes, they’re really safe, and, uh, mishaps, uh happen very rarely. So we would fly in what we’d call “Starboard[?] Delta” for up to three hours at a time and doing circles, right? And this is one of those times where, uh, we’re just kinda sitting at the back and it’s a good view and everything, but we’re just, uh, doing circles around the boat. Just waiting for something to happen so—but, you know, the whole time you’re talking, you’re training. It—it—it—but it does get a little monotonous.
Hazen
Can you share the one of you guys coming out of the water?
Ennis
Oh, yeah, yeah. So this one’s in Japan, and, uh, we’re just doing training, and, uh, once again, it’s—it’s pretty fun when you do that. But, uh, that’s—that’s a yearly quall. So we don’t get to do it all the time, but when it—when it does, um—and—and o this was, uh, maybe six years ago. The kid I’m coming up with, uh, he’s a 20 year old and, uh, pretty new to the Navy, and, uh, the cool thing about that is—is, uh, kids that join the military now—I mean, they’re expected to do some pretty awesome stuff. You know, either jump out of a helicopter, you know, patrol Afghanistan, and, uh, it really is amazing the quality of people that we have, uh, in the services today. So I—it’s—it’s—makes proud thinking of people, uh, you know, joining [clicks touchpad], and then so—here, uh—me and my Navy buddy Harold, uh, Lavine[?]. He’s, uh, retired Navy, works at Publix, I think, in Ocoee, or somewhere around there, but we’re just trying to promote the, uh—promote the Lone Sailor Memorial, and, uh—and pass the word. So that was that.
Hazen
Great.
Ennis
[clicks touchpad] Oh [laughs]. So this—this is on the, uh—the—I think the [USS] John C. Stennis, when we were crossing the, uh—the Equator, and when you cross the Equator, you—you do—you do something that’s called a “shellback ceremony.” And if—if—if you’re not a shellback, you’re a wog, right? So this is one of the traditions in the Navy that’s maybe got a bad rap, because, uh, we’re out at sea and, uh, you know, we—we, uh—you know, they make you walk like ducks, they spray you with fire hoses. It—it’s really, uh, kinda hazing, but it’s a—it’s a mariner’s—a sailor’s tradition, right? So you get to dress up and, uh, just have a good time and, uh—but you know. Uh, Yeah. So anyway, that—that’s a shellback ceremony. So That’s where we get to dress up and do all that and that—that’s why we look the way we do [laughs]. Let’s see. Yeah. I think that’s it.
Hazen
Mmhmm.
Ennis
Yep.
Hazen
Great. Thank you.
Ennis
So…
Hazen
Any last comments?
Ennis
No, I, uh, appreciate the opportunity, and, uh, you know, I think today’s Navy is—is a better Navy than when I went through, and, uh, I just—I just hope that it continues to, uh, you know—people understand that the Navy is—is the people, right? You know, you can have the best ships, the best aircraft, but the—the people—the men and women in the services, uh, need, you know, our support, right? And as long as we remember history and remember, you know, what’s, uh—what happens, uh, I think we’ll—we’ll be good, but that’s it.
Hazen
Great.
Ennis
Yeah, well, thank you.
Hazen
Thank you.
Ennis
Yeah.
[1] Correction: Kevin Michael Costner.
Wiggins
Today’s date is Thursday, March 6th, 2014. I am interviewing Martha “Connie” Reuter, who served in the United States Navy. She served on active duty between May 1984 and April 1988, and as a [Naval] Reserve between October 1988 and October 2005. My name is Leanne Wiggins. I am interviewing Ms. Reuter as part of the UCF Community Veterans History Project and as research for the creation of the Lone Sailor Memorial Project. We are recording this interview at the University of Central Florida in Orlando, Florida. Ms. Reuter, will you please start us off by telling us when and where you were born?
Reuter
I was born in Abingdon, Virginia. March 20th, 1964.
Wiggins
And what did your parents do for a living?
Reuter
Um, my mom was a stay-at-home mom, and, um, my dad was a, um, pastor—Lutheran minister.
Wiggins
And do you have any brothers or sisters?
Reuter
And, uh, one older brother.
Wiggins
Growing up, where did you go to school?
Reuter
Um, we moved, uh, a couple of times during my childhood. Um, started out, uh, around Shenandoah, Virginia. Moved to Martinsville, Virginia. I spent most of my, uh, ah, years in, uh, Martinsville, and then, um, moved to, uh, Newton, North Carolina, for, uh, my junior and senior year of high school.
Wiggins
And what did you do before entering the Navy?
Reuter
Uh, I was, uh, uh, trying to figure out what I was going to do with my life [laughs]. So I was working, um, at a Hardee’s. I had gone to school for retail merchandising. Um, decided, uh, not to go that route. Was trying to figure out what to do, and, uh, one of my friends came through and said “Connie, let’s join the Navy.” And we were going to go in on the [Navy] Buddy [Enlistment] Program. And, uh, I went to a recruiter about three times. The fourth time I said, uh, “If I’m going to go, I’m going to go now.” and, uh, I signed on the Delayed Entry Program in February, and I left for boot camp in May. My friend did not go [laughs]. So it was just me.
Wiggins
So why did you choose the Navy, as opposed to other branches of the military?
Reuter
As, uh—basically, I had no clue. I just, uh—like I said, when she came through and said, “I got a[sic] idea. Let’s join the Navy,”—’cause her boyfriend had joined, and, um—uh, was like, “Great.”
I have, uh—some of my relatives, um, are—have also been in the military. My cousin, who was in the Air Force, my uncle, uh, in the Army, and then my grandfather was in the Army. But it wasn’t, uh—I didn’t live near any big military bases, so I really didn’t—didn’t know. So I said—when she decided—when she said, “Let’s join the Navy,” I— Alright.” [laughs].
Wiggins
How did, uh, your family members feel about you joining the Navy?
Reuter
Uh, I think they were—they were definitely, uh, proud. Um, shocked, because I did all that and, uh, going to the recruiter and everything, um, without telling them [laughs]. So, um, after I had already join[sic], came home and told them.
Wiggins
So where did you attend boot camp?
Reuter
Uh, eh, Orlando, Florida.
Wiggins
And were you trained to do—what were you trained to do for your career in the Navy?
Reuter
Uh, while I was [inaudible] —I came in non-designated, so I didn’t decide ahead of time what career I wanted to do in the Navy. So I, uh—after, uh, boot camp, I went to Airman Apprenticeship Training School. And, um, from there got my, um, first duty station, talked to the Navy career counselor, and decided from there.
Wiggins
When did you begin your training at NTC [Naval Training Center] Orlando?
Reuter
Um, May 7th, 1984.
Wiggins
Before coming to NTC Orlando, what did you know about the region, militarily or otherwise?
Reuter
Nothing, uh, military-wise. And, of course, for Orlando, all you basically hear about is, uh, Walt Disney World. I had, a, uh—a [sic] uncle and cousins, who lived here. And so we had come down, um, once to visit them, and we went to Walt Disney World when I was a kid. And, um, so that’s all I knew. I had no idea about the military.
Wiggins
How long were you at NTC Orlando?
Reuter
Uh, I did the, uh, eight weeks of boot camp. And then, I believe Airman Apprenticeship Training was an additional four weeks. And, um, so then I left, all total, ‘round September.
Wiggins
When you first arrived, what was your first impression of the base or the area?
Reuter
Uh, well, when I first arrived, it was at night. Um, I was 20 years old, and that was my, uh, first time being on a commercial airplane. So, um, the MEPs [Military Entrance Processing] station was in Charlotte, North Carolina. So I flew from Charlotte to Orlando, as my first time on a commercial airplane. And, uh, it was at night. Uh, don’t remember much [laughs], okay?
Uh, I know we had a bus, came right to the base, um, uh, everybody—when I came into the barracks, most of everybody was in their bunks already going to sleep. Um, I remember getting in my bunk, and then, uh, realizing I had to go to the bathroom. Scared to ask if I could get up and go to the bathroom, But I did, [laughs] and, uh—um, so then, I went back to sleep and woke up the next morning and that’s when it all began.
Wiggins
So what were your first days of service like?
Reuter
Pretty, um, uh, regimented—routine. Start dinner routine, start, uh, issuing, um, uniforms. uh, even though I had, uh, cut my hair short before I came to Orlando for boot camp, um, because I thought that, uh, you know, If I’m going to have my hair short, I want to be able to kind of, you know—well, do it myself. [laughs] Well, it didn’t matter. You still went to the barbershop. They still cut some more off, even though it was already short. So I had, uh, um, short hair for the first time in my life [laughs]. And, um, uh, like I said, everything was pretty much, uh, just routine. You did as you were told. You stood where they told you to stand, listen to instructions, and everything. And if you listened well, you got along great.
Wiggins
So what was it like to be a woman at NTC Orlando?
Reuter
Uh, it—it really didn’t, uh, bother me at all being a woman at NTC Orlando. Um, I didn’t have any problems at boot camp. Um, I know some of my bunkmates, uh, uh, did. Um, and it wasn’t necessarily—I don’t think—because of a woman. It’s just a—a different—it’s an adjustment.
Um, but, uh, uh, we—the boys were still around. Uh, we had—went to classes with them. Um, saw them in the—at chow halls. All that. But we didn’t march with them, didn’t have them in the barracks, uh, and on—or anything. But, um, I remember we called them “trees.” and you were not allowed to look at the “trees” or anything.
But, um, one of the best pieces of advice that I got before I left for boot camp, was my friend’s boyfriend, who was in the Navy already. He said “When they first ask you to raise your hand—to be on either the color guard, drill team, flag guard—raise your hand.” So I was like, “Okay.” So as soon as my company commanders, you know, asked that question, I raised my hand and they picked me and it was the best advice I had ever gotten. Uh, I had a really good time being on the drill team. Uh, you were on the drill team with the boys, so therefore you could talk to them [laughs] and meet them. Um, uh, I got out of a lot of other inspections, a lot of the PT [physical training], um, all that, because we had to go to drill practice. And so again, that was the best advice I could have ever gotten.
Wiggins
So besides your responsibilities with the drill team, what were—did you have any other primary responsibilities?
Reuter
No. That was it in boot camp. just, uh, keep everything in shipshape, um, make up your bunk correctly, have your clothes folded correctly, um, clean the barracks some, uh, go to classes, and, uh, that was about it.
Wiggins
So what was your overall impression of the recruits and their training during your time at the base?
Reuter
I felt it was very good. Um, uh, as—I felt comfortable. Um, I felt like I could trust them. Um, I said I didn’t have any problems. Um, when they yelled—you know, the company commanders yelled or—or whatever, but, you know, it didn’t bother me. I just let it roll—roll off my back. You know, do what they say. That’s it. Um, it, uh, definitely taught me a lot. Um, for, uh—everybody should go through it [laughs].
Wiggins
So who did you interact with on a daily basis?
Reuter
It was mainly my, um—the bunkmates that were closest to me. So, um, I was in the lower bunk, so, uh, my shipmate, who was in the top bunk, uh, we became very good friends. And the shipmate pretty much right next to me, we became really good friends. And, um, uh, other than that there was, uh, one of—one of my, um, boot camp, uh, ladies that were[sic]—that was in my company, she got stationed at the same place I did for the first duty station. So, uh, when I went to my first duty station, I already knew one person. So that was great. Um, and then a couple years later, while I was there, uh, one of, um—another girl that I was in, uh—I was in boot camp with, got stationed there, and so we became really good friends after that.
Wiggins
Who were your instructors, and what were they like?
Reuter
We had, uh, the company commanders, um, was[sic] Hines[sp] and Merritt[sp] —um, Petty Officer Hines and Petty Officer Merritt. Um, of course, I do not know their first name, [laughs], because you don’t have first names in boot camp. Uh, everything is by your last name. But, um, again, like I said, when they—they would, you know, yell if they had to.
Um, I remember one time, you know, they asked you about what a gig line is, and I had no idea. And, um, you know, they would go around and ask everybody, and none of us knew, but we learned awfully quick[sic] what a gig line was. And [laughs] that’s something you’ll never forget.
Wiggins
What was a gig line?
Reuter
That is the line on your shirt that overlaps, it lines up with your belt buckle all the way down. That’s the gig line.
Wiggins
What was the hardest thing that you remember doing at NTC?
Reuter
[sigh] Oh, gosh. Um, I don’t know about the hardest. There was, uh, a couple—uh, we did go in the gas chamber, and, uh, so it was kind of scary. Um, and, uh, you know, you all go in as a group. They tell you to take your mask off. You start feeling the, uh, um, burn. And, uh, uh, [laughs] I remember one of our girls in the company, way in the back, was like “Help!” And she had such a high pitched voice and everybody started laughing. And, um, so then, um, they—by that time, they finally—they opened the door and you all came out. But, um, you experience that.
You experienced, um, putting out a fire and, uh, putting out a fire on a ship with a big hose and working together as a team. Um, you experienced, uh, swimming, and how to survive in swimming and using your clothes as floatation devices.
Um, that’s the first time I’d ever shot a gun, uh, I think it was a, uh, .45 [caliber handgun]. And, um—so that was an experience. Um, so I can’t really say anything was really hard. I was already fairly physically fit before I went in. um, and I could—I listened well and took instructions well.
Wiggins
What was a moment that you felt the most proud?
Reuter
Oh, gosh. Um, graduation [laughs].
Wiggins
What was graduation like?
Reuter
Um, uh, my parents had come down, and, um, my uncle had come over. And, uh, uh, it was a good time. And we went also went on a Liberty Call. And, um, I went with my parents, and—and, uh, couple of my, um, uh, friends from boot camp. I went to SeaWorld [Orlando], and, uh—yeah.
Wiggins
Can you tell me a story of a time at NTC Orlando that you’ll never forget?
Reuter
[laughs] Oh, let’s see. There’s several. Um, oh [laughs], I’ll never forget—um, after boot camp, I was at a—I went to, uh, Airman Apprenticeship Training School, which was, uh, another additional four weeks. And during that time, we could have, uh, Liberty Call at around 16:00 to 16:30— somewhere around there. Never failed. Orlando, during that time frame, would, uh—there would always be a huge thunderstorm downpour, uh, right at Liberty Call. So right when you were getting ready to go out on the [laughs] town or whatever, um, and have a little bit of your own time, they would have to cancel Liberty Call. And it would only last about an hour, and then Liberty was open. So it [laughs] —never failed. And still to this day [laughs] [sniffs].
Wiggins
How would you describe the USS Blue Jacket and its function?
Reuter
Um, I think, uh, back then, it was, uh, a very good replica of a Navy ship. And, uh, I said that is where we went to learn how to, uh, fight a fire on a ship, to work as a team. um, and, uh, even though, during my Navy career [laughs], uh, I never went out to sea—I was on the land on shore—but, uh, I’m sure, uh, it was—it was a good replica for the real thing.
Wiggins
What was the official purpose of the Grinder, and what was its significance to you and the recruits?
Reuter
The Grinder was, uh, where you marched and you marched [laughs]. And, uh, you also did the PT out there. Uh, the Grinder was a large, um—uh, what was it? Concrete or asphalt area. Um, big rectangle that you just marched up and down. And, uh, so you learned how to march in a straight line, you learned how to, uh, take the corners while you’re marching, and, um, you spend a lot of time out on the Grinder [laughs].
Wiggins
What other trainings went on at the base?
Reuter
Um, well, again, as I said, I went to Airman Apprenticeship Training School, and, um—but there were also, um, Nuclear Power School out there, and—um, which of course, while you’re in boot camp, you don’t know that anything else is going on around you, except for your little area. But, um, uh, during Airman Apprenticeship Training School, you could, uh, get to know a little bit more of the base. And, uh, you could go to the, uh—also during boot camp and afterwards, go to the chapel on Sundays, and—and, uh, so you get to learn a little bit more.
Wiggins
Were there any other areas on base that were of particular importance to you?
Reuter
Um, besides the chapel? It was, uh, the chapel [laughs]. And, um, another thing I will also never forget is: when you march up, getting ready to go into the chow hall, there is, um, uh, a recruit up there who has this big spiel about, uh, “You have 20 minutes, and 20 minutes only to eat your fine Navy chow.” and, uh, I know that there’s more, but, uh, [laughs] that’s the line that I remember. And, uh, you just went into the chow hall, got your food, ate. There were always huge, um, bottles of peanut butter on the tables, because peanut butter, uh, was more sustaining, and to—to help you keep full, if you needed to or whatever. But, uh, uh, you would always put peanut butter on, on the, uh, uh, chocolate bars, the ice cream, or make peanut butter sandwiches, or something, but there was always a huge jar of peanut butter.
Wiggins
[sniffs] So what did it feel like to graduate and finally put that hat on?
Reuter
[laughs] This was, uh, um, my cover that I got from, uh, boot camp. This was issued to me during boot camp. Uh, one of the, uh, things that I realize now is that, uh, we, back then, wrote our full Social Security [Insurance] number in, uh—in our, some of our gear. Uh, so I still have [laughs] my full Social Security number, uh, written in here. But, uh, it definitely has all of the stains from, uh, many years of—of wear.
Um, I was also issued, uh, “birth control glasses.”[1] So I still have my “birth control glasses,” that, uh—and you could not wear contacts. You had to wear these “birth control glasses” during boot camp, and after, um, boot camp, during Apprenticeship Training School, then I could, uh, wear my contacts. But, uh, these were lovely [laughs], But hey. Everybody that needed glasses had them. Uh, we all, for the most part, looked the same.
This is, uh, still my, uh, uh, tie that was issued in boot camp. I still have, uh, my initials, um, engraved—or, uh, inked on there. That was another one of the things that as soon as you were issued your gear, you all, uh, went in a line and, uh, with the stencil, and then, uh, stenciled all your gear. So, uh, this was the first time that I was issued.
And, um, this was, uh, the picture of my mom and dad at, uh, graduation. And this was just a picture that they took of me in, uh, front of the sign. And then this was just my, uh, first, uh, photograph.
Wiggins
Did you want to share anything else of the memor—memorabilia you brought?
Reuter
Um, well, later on, uh, when, I got to my first duty station, and finally decided what I wanted to be in the Navy, that is when I decided to, uh, uh, be a Photographer’s Mate. And, uh—so I went and, um, during that time, the Photographer’s Mate rating was open, meaning that they needed people to be photographers in the Navy, so I was like, “I can take pictures.” So I decided to [laughs] —to go that route.
And, um, this is my, um, rating badge. Uh, that is, uh, no longer, uh, used in the Navy. This, uh, was, uh, the Photographer’s Mate rating badge, it’s an IFKA[?]. And the wings represent, uh, that we were—that it was the air-dealt rating. So um, now the Navy has combined three ratings into one. So, uh. Now there are no more Photographer’s Mates. They have a new rating.[2]
Wiggins
So tell me a bit more about your experience as a Photographer’s Mate.
Reuter
Again, that was, uh, very, um, thrilling, and, a lot of fun. You were up front, uh, of everything, because you had to get the picture. And, um, you also got to tell, uh, some of the officers, uh, what to do, where to stand, and, uh, you know, what to do. So that was always fun [laughs]. And, uh, um, there was always some, some—some, uh, great opportunities.
I, uh, had to take pictures of, um, a wheels-up landing. I was stationed in, uh, Corpus Christi, Texas. And, um, a [Beechcraft] T-34 [Mentor] was coming in for a landing, and the wheels would not come down. The landing gear would not come down. So, um, we—me and another Photographer Mate went out to shoot, um, pictures of this wheels-up landing to document it. And I was shooting the stills, and he was shooting the video. But, uh, at first, I was nervous and—camera was shaking while I was trying to take the pictures [laughs] but, uh, you know, we had the fire trucks there, and they just came right in on the belly of the plane—skid right in—and, uh, they were fine. Thank goodness.
But, um, uh, I also went to take pictures of, uh, Naval Station Ingleside[, Texas], which is no longer there already [laughs]. The Navy’s already sold it back to Corpus Christi. But, uh, uh, we took the groundpreak[sic]—groundbreaking pictures of, um, Naval Station Ingleside.
And, uh, so it’s just, um—it was always cool to be a part of history—document history. Um, uh, document, uh, happy occasions, lots of, uh, changes of command ceremonies, lots of promotion ceremonies, retirement ceremonies.
Um, and uh, document some not-so-good things. You also were on duty, um, and when it was your duty day, and you got called, I had, um, three different suicide attempts. So you had to go and document, um, the scene and what had happened. And, uh, one guy had tried to slit his wrist, so you’re documenting all the blood and all that. And, uh, um, another person had jumped out a second story window. Um, so you have to go, you know, just document. And, uh, so, you never knew what was going to happen. What you were going to be called to do. So it was—it was exciting.
Wiggins
Do you recall the day that your active service ended?
Reuter
Um, well, I was on active duty for four years. And, um, as I said, I was stationed in Corpus Christi, Texas, and that was my first duty station. And from there, uh, I had met my future husband, so I decided—we got engaged, and I decided to, um, get out of the Navy, uh, so we could get married.
And, uh, from there, I stayed in the Reserves. So, um, the remaining of my time, I, uh, did the, you know, uh, weekend-a-month, two weeks a year Reserve drill. Uh, still as a Photographer’s Mate. And, uh, that worked out well, because I was able to do my Reserve duty anywhere that, uh, he was stationed, because he was still active duty Navy.
Wiggins
So when you were not doing your Reserve duties, what were you doing otherwise?
Reuter
Well, I was very lucky to be able to, uh—once we had our first child, to stay at home. And, uh, so, uh, the majority of my time was as a stay-at-home mother. Uh, we ended up, uh, with three children, so [laughs], uh—and fairly close together, so that…
[vacuum cleaner turns on]
Reuter
Kept me busy. But, um, uh, we, uh—I also would do, uh, other different things, uh, besides my Reserve time, to, uh, just stay active as far as, uh, either within their school, being a substitute teacher, going and helping out and volunteering. Um, uh, doing, uh—did the realtor for a couple of years, did pampered chef for a couple of years. So anything that I did, I made sure that my schedule, I could still be home.
Wiggins
What values or characteristics of the Navy do you believe made an impression on your life?
Reuter
Hm, um, [sighs] I think I had, um, a lot of good values, um, already instilled in me from my parents, uh, that the Navy and the military, um, uh, you know, uh, possesses, and that’s, uh, good character, uh, teamwork. There’s the honor, courage, and commitment. Um, uh, I always felt that, uh—I said, “If they were your shipmate, uh, and you were in trouble, they would be there to help.” um, so just—just a little bit more of, of continuing of what my parents had already told me.
Wiggins
What was the most valuable lesson that you learned, um, in your time in the Navy?
Reuter
Hm, um, as I said, just be a—be a team player. It’s—it’s not about you. It’s getting the job done, keeping everybody safe, um, keeping the country safe, um, being a team player.
[vacuum cleaner turns off]
Wiggins
How has NTC Orlando base or the Central Florida region changed since the time you originally spent here?
Reuter
Oh, goodness. A lot. Uh, when we—my family and my husband—me and my husband and—and our three kids—um, moved back to Orlando, because, uh, he was being stationed here at NAWCTSD [Naval Air Warfare Center Training System Division], um, I was like, you know, [laughs] “Let’s go see where, uh, NTC Orlando was.” Where was I? Where did I go to boot camp? Uh, I knew that the base had been closed, but—I don’t know. I guess I was expecting to see something, um, and there was really nothing. Nothing there to show that the Navy had been here, as far as a, um, boot camp. And like, you know—like we’ve talked about, with the, um—the Grinder, the—the big replica of the, you know, the Blue Jacket ship, uh, um, there was nothing. Uh, the chapel [laughs]—and nothing and so I was very surprised.
And, uh, I said, I was, um, very pleased to, uh, find a group who was trying to do something about that. And, um, so since that time, I have, uh—me and my husband have volunteered to be on the, uh, committee, to get, uh, something to show where NTC/RTC [Recruit Training Center] was. um, so that people can not only come to take their kids to Disney World or SeaWorld or, um, Universal Studios [Orlando], uh, but if they went to boot camp, they can bring them to an area, uh, that they can show their kids where they were during that time frame. I, um—when I retired, the Lone Sailor [Memorial Project] statue was the, um, one thing that I wanted as a retirement gift, and so I’m very proud.
Wiggins
So when they come back to visit the memorial, what do you think Naval personnel would like to see?
Reuter
Um, I think they would like to see, uh, um, pictures of, uh, the way—to—to show the way it used to be—what was really there. Because, you know, now it’s a Baldwin Park community. um, so it’s just really, I feel, interesting to see, um, old pictures of—of when we were there, Um, maybe a little write up of the history, um, and, um, of course, not only a—a male Lone Sailor, but a, hopefully, one day, we get a female Sailor statue there also, to represent, um, the men and women who went to boot camp there.
Wiggins
What do you think is the lasting legacy of the NTC Orlando or the Navy to the Central Florida region?
Reuter
Uh, just that it—it, uh—it’s a lot of good people. It, uh, helped a lot of people grow up, and become, uh, great, um, adults—giving adults—back to their communities and country, um, sacrificing what you have to have sacrifice for the good of all.
Wiggins
Is there anything else that you would like to share about your Navy experience?
Reuter
Um, it was definitely, uh, a good, good experience. Lots of, uh, memories. Lots of opportunities. Lots of opportunities to travel to different places, um, meet different people, uh, lots of—build lots of lasting friendships, um, see and do many different things.
Uh, during one of my two weeks of active duty, I was in New York City for Fleet Week, and during that time was when they, um, brought out the last beam for, uh, the World Trade Center. and I was manning the rails as they brought out the last beam, and I was all the way down—the bottom of World Trade Center—and, uh, at Ground Zero. And, uh, to just be down there and look up—amazing.
Wiggins
Well, I want to thank you very much for your time and for giving this interview, and for all of the wonderful experiences that you have shared with me.
Reuter
Thank you.
Unidentified
Recording.
Young
Today [clears throat] is April the 1st[, 2014]. I am Mary Hughes Young, and I am interviewing Lawrence Paul Levine.
Levine
Right.
Young
Who served in the U.S. Air Force [sniffs]. Um, This is part of the University of Central Floride—Florida’s Community Veterans History Project, and we’re recording this interview at University of Central Florida in Orlando, Florida. Okay. Larry, tell me first about when and where you were born.
Levine
I was born in Rochester, New York, in 1947.
Young
Okay. And did you live there for all of your educational years?
Levine
Uh, primarily, yes. Yes. I, uh, graduated college in Rochester also, after the—after my service.
Young
Okay. Uh, do you have brothers or sisters?
Levine
Yes. I have two brothers.
Young
Two. So there were three of…
Levine
Yes. There were three of us in the family.
Young
Where were you in the birth order?
Levine
Uh, I’m the oldest.
Young
The oldest? Okay. What did your parents do for a living?
Levine
Well, my father had a number of different jobs. Uh, He was a bread salesman for Thomas’ English Muffins for a while, and then worked for a supermarket chain as one of their managers of one of their stores. Um, my mother was pretty much of a stay-at home mom. Um, She became very si—very sick, um, at a very young age and—and passed away at a very young age also. Uh…
Young
Okay. And how old were you when she passed away?
Levine
I was, uh, 20.
Young
20? Okay.
Levine
21.
Young
Uh, Were any of your family members or extended members in the military?
Levine
Yes. My father—my father was. He was in World War II. He, uh, was an in-flight radio operator in—at that time, was the Army Air Corps, uh, which then became the Air Force. Uh, in-flight radio operator and served over in India, going back from Karachi to Calcutta, India.
Young
Okay. Uh, tell me about your education before you went into the military.
Levine
Well, I, um, graduated high school in 1964. Uh, was accepted to Brown University, um, in Providence, Rhode Island. [clears throat] Finished one year there, and then my mother became very ill, and I had to come back home, which led me into the next phase of my life of being in the—in the military. Um, so that was prior to me going into the service.
Young
Okay. Uh, And why did you decide to go into the military?
Levine
Well, uh, because I came back home and had to help the family out. Uh, during that time, it was the Vietnam War, obviously—back in the—in the [19]60s. Um, in all honestly, I was ultimately drafted.
Now, there was a[sic] interesting—very interesting story that leads up to that. Um, When I came back home, I went to work for the U.S. Customs Service. My background is primarily: I was going to school in business and accounting, and I was fortunate enough to get a job [clears throat] with the U.S. Bureau of Customs [and Border Protection] in Rochester. Uh, went to work for them full-time. Did a number of j—jobs for them, primarily in the accounting area, and also, uh, did a few clearances of planes and—and ships and that system, where I need to, in that particular area. But I worked in the, um, government, uh—in the state office building—actually, it was a Federal building. It wasn’t even a state. It was a Federal building, because it was U.S. Customs.
And, uh, the draft board was right downstairs from my offices. And I became very friendly with a number of the different people who worked in the draft board, and informed them of my situation: that, uh, I was eligible for the draft, because I wasn’t going to school full-time. I was going to school part-time. Uh, they had informed me at that particular time that, “No—no worries. No problems.” That, uh, I would be safe, because I knew everybody there. And low- and behold, before I knew it, my letter from Uncle Sam came and said I was drafted.
Young
Okay.
Levine
So I went back to the [laughs]—to the, uh, draft board and said, “What happened here?” And their excuse was, “Oh, we’re sorry. It got by us,” and everything like that. So, um, in ess—in essence, I was drafted, but before I was drafted, I enlisted in the Air Force.
Young
Okay.
Levine
Okay.
Young
Um, and was this before the lottery was in effect?
Levine
No. The lottery was in effect, if I’m not mistaken. Um, the—there was a lottery, and I had a pretty, pretty low lottery number.
Young
Okay.
Levine
Meaning that I was very eligible for the draft. Uh, I wasn’t going to Canada. I wasn’t going any place, but I was informed again by the draft board that I’d be safe. And, uh, low and behold, I wasn’t.
Young
Okay. Because of the work you were doing?
Levine
No. It’s just that—because I knew people at the draft board, who said if they saw my name come up, they would pull it [laughs].
Young
Oh, okay. Okay. Well, how did you feel about being drafted then? Um, was it—was it…
Levine
Concerned.
Young
A big shock?
Levine
Concerned.
Young
Okay. Okay.
Levine
Shock. Uh, the first thing, obviously, that came to my mind, was: Well, if you’re drafted, then you’re going into the Army. And if you go in the Army, you are going to carry a gun. If you carry a gun, you’re going to go to Vietnam. So, uh, when that—when that happened, obviously, the family was very concerned about it. And, uh…
Young
And so—so…
Levine
They didn’t want me to go. So I figured it would be best if I went into the Air Force.
Young
Right. And so you signed up for the Air Force…
Levine
Yes.
Young
Right after you were drafted?
Levine
Yes. That’s correct.
Young
Okay.
Levine
That’s correct.
Young
And So your family was feeling
Levine
Uh…
Young
Concerned about the situation too?
Levine
They were more concerned, obviously, during that whole period of time, but not as concerned if I allowed myself to be drafted in the Army.
Young
Into the Army. Okay. How about your, uh peers? You friends or girlfriend? How did they feel about you going into the military?
Levine
Uh, my friends were kind of like, Better you than me, at that particular time. Uh, I’m sure most people realized that was not the greatest time in our history for the military. Most people were looked down on in going into the military. Uh, I had some tough experiences myself with that particular situation. Uh, my girlfriend, at the time, was pretty much—said, “If you are going into the military, then I’m not waiting around for you, so,” [laughs] “I’m—I’m gone.”
Young
As if you had a choice, right? [laughs].
Levine
Yeah. As if I had a choice. Right. Right.
Young
Okay. Uh, well, now you’re in the Air Force.
Levine
Mmhmm.
Young
And where did you do your basic training?
Levine
Uh, Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas. I was there in August of 1966.
Young
Okay. And, uh, what were your expectations of— being in the, uh—in basic training? Did you—did you have any idea of what was going—what it was going to be like?
Levine
No. I had an idea, but I didn’t—I didn’t think it would be as bad as it really was. Uh, I was in good shape at the time, okay?
Young
Uh huh.
Levine
Weighed a lot less than I do now. And, um, expected it to be a little different, uh, physically and mentally. Uh, The aspects of basic training are obviously to get you in a situation to where you are able to accept orders, and you’re able to—be able to do things when they’re—when you’re told to do them. And, uh, I accepted that without any problem. It’s just—there’s a little more physical on my body than I had anticipated.
Young
Okay. Can you elaborate a little bit on that?
Levine
Yeah. The marching…
Young
What was a typical day like?
Levine
The typical day is we get up at like five in the morning—4:30-5 o’clock in the morning, and we’d have to make our bunks and get everything straightened away for the day. We go to me—the mess hall, where we had breakfast. And that was one of the things that surprised me, because we just didn’t take our time in—in being able to eat breakfast. We were given a certain amount of time to get in line, eat our breakfast, and get ready to go outside. It was a lot shorter than I had anticipated. So, uh, my eating habits had to change very quickly, because of that.
Young
Hm.
Levine
Uh, after that, we would do either calisthenics or marching. Um, go to the gun range, which kind of surprised me, because I didn’t think I would be shooting a gun. Uh, had qualified in the—in the gun range.
And had different classes on just general military, um—you know, the way of life of a—of a person in the military. Uh, Things—how to handle yourself, how to be able to, uh, you know, again, take orders, and anything that had to do with the military. Military history, all of that.
Young
Okay. And this—how long was your basic training? How many weeks?
Levine
Uh, wow. You see, I—that—I, uh—I want to say eight weeks.
Young
Eight weeks? Okay.
Levine
But it might be a little bit longer than that. I mean, that’s 40—what? 40—safe[sic] —48 years ago. And [laughs]…
Young
Okay.
Levine
[inaudible]. I really didn’t wanna do any…
Young
It’s not for everybody[?].
Levine
Research on that.
Young
You know there’s an end to it.
Levine
Yes.
Young
It’s not gonna be forever.
Levine
That’s absolutely correct.
Young
Okay. Um, what were your instructors like?
Levine
[sniffs] I thought the meanest people in the world, okay? They didn’t take any—they didn’t take anything from anybody.
Young
Uh huh.
Levine
Um, which is what they were supposed to do. You were supposed to be there to listen to them. Them—they were, um, NCOs [non-commissioned officers], which is, uh, the equivalents of sergeants, okay? They were not officers, although the heads—some different, um, sections were—were officers—captains and—and, uh, lieutenants and that. But, um, you know…
Young
[inaudible].
Levine
I realized after a while, that they were doing their job, and that if they were soft on us, and if we became—a situation, which we got involved in, we couldn’t be soft either. So the, um—they did their job, and I think they did it—looking back on it, I think they did a good job on ‘em.
Young
Okay. Uh, let’s back up a minute.
Levine
Sure.
Young
You said you didn’t think you’d have to shoot a gun
Levine
Mmhmm.
Young
But you did.
Levine
Right.
Young
And I think I noticed on your paper that you were, uh, a sharpshooter.
Levine
Yeah. I surprised myself, to be honest with you.
Young
Had you ever shot a gun before?
Levine
No.
Young
Okay. So…
Levine
No.
Young
You adapted to that well.
Levine
I adapted to it. Yeah. Well…
Young
Okay.
Levine
Which again, kind of concerned me. In effect, if I’m a sharpshooter, they might do something with me, other than what I wanted to do [laughs].
Young
Did you receive, uh, any advanced, specialized training?
Levine
Not at that time. No. When we, uh—Just To—to go back a little bit, uh, historically, what led up to this: when I enlisted in the—in the Air Force—and I— don’t mean to take away what you’re—you—the questions you are asking—uh, I had to take a battery of tests…
Young
Mmhmm.
Levine
To determine where I was best fit for the Air Force. Uh, and, at that time, I was—I—I actually scored highest in the administrative area. It was like electronics, administrative, mechanical, uh—those I think—and—and just basic—basic air. So I scored highest in administrative, which I assumed that I would, because that was pretty much my background and what I wanted to do.
However, at the time that I went in, and—there were no openings in the administrative field. So I said, “Well, if you don’t have anything in the administrative area, send me home. I don’t—I don’t need to come then.”
Young
[laughs].
Levine
They said, “No. that doesn’t work that way, okay? Now, you’re going to be in the electronics field.” I said, “Okay. Electronics.” “Yeah. You know, putting wires together and all this kind of stuff. Wherever you’re needed in electronics.” You know, that’s a wide area, obviously. I said, “Okay.” and they gave me another battery of tests, and one of the tests was called the Ishihara [Color] Test—and I’m not sure if you’re fa—familiar with that? That’s the one where they have the numbers that are embedded in the different colors, so that if you’re looking at it, it is to determine if you are colorblind or not.
Young
Oh.
Levine
Well, I really botched that up big time. I think I only got two numbers out of all of them that they showed me. I just couldn’t pick out the different numbers in the blocks of different colors. So they sat back and they said “Well, hm. If you can’t pick out the numbers, how are you going to put a red wire together with a green wire or with a blue wire, and make sure it’s running properly? So you can’t go into electronics.” So I said, “Good. Send me home.” They said, “No. it doesn’t work that way.”
I said, “Well, how about administrative again?” “No. we still don’t have any openings.” “Okay. So now what?” “Well, we’re going to give you your choice of what you want to do, Okay? This is the career that you’re going to have in the Air Force.” One: You can become a cook, okay? Number two: you can become a parachute rigger, okay? Putting together the parachutes for the pilots and [inaudible]. Three: you can be an air policeman, because you did qualify that [inaudible]. Or four: you can be an airframe repair specialist.
So I sat back and I thought, Well, I could kill everybody with my cooking, because I couldn’t cook very well, okay? If I became a parachute rigger, god forbid if a parachute didn’t open when the pilot jumped out of the plane or whatever[?], I’d probably kill somebody that way. Air police? I says[sic], Nah. I’m not big enough to be a good air policeman, you know? I could direct traffic, but that would probably be all that I could do. So that left me with airframe repair, okay? So that’s where we’re back—that’s where—that’s a little bit about the background on my next point after basic training.
Young
Okay. So in basic training, you get your assignments?
Levine
Exactly.
Young
And you were assigned to be an air…
Levine
Airframe Repair.
Young
Airframe Repair? Okay.
Levine
That’s exactly correct.
Young
Okay. So that’s working on the outside of the airplane.
Levine
Uh, It could be the inside too.
Young
Oh, okay. Anything to do with the frame of an airplane?
Levine
Right.
Young
Okay, but, um—so where were you assigned after basic training?
Levine
I was assigned after basic training to advanced training at Amarillo Air Force Base—Texas also. I really didn’t leave Texas for my basic training and my advance training. And this was strictly was airframe repair now.
Young
Okay.
Levine
Okay? This was how—to teach me how to be, uh, an airframe repairman.
Young
Okay.
Levine
I have two left hands, so you can imagine
Young
[laughs].
Levine
What it was like to be in Airframe Repair School [laughs].
Young
Okay. And—so how long where you in
Levine
Uh…
Young
Airframe training?
Levine
Six months, actually.
Young
Six months? Okay.
Levine
Almost six months. It was—yeah.
Young
And What was your impression of this a—assignment?
Levine
I thought it would be just going to school, But unfortunately, it wasn’t. It was an extension of the basic training, only, to be honest with you, worse. First of all, the weather in Amarillo, Texas, was horrible. I was there during the wintertime, and it was cold and freezing, and we were doing calisthenics outside and we were running, and we were marching. And I said, This isn’t supposed to be like this. This is like I’m supposed to learn how to work on airplanes, not [laughs]—not—I said, “This was already done in basic training. Why do I—why do I gotta do that again?” “No, no, no.” And actually, they—they called them “TIs”—technical instructors—were worse in—in Airframe Repair School than they were in basic training. They were harder on us in—in, uh—in school.
Young
Okay.
Levine
So…
Young
How many hours would you actually be in—in training for repairs?
Levine
For repairs? It was about six to eight hours a day.
Young
So a long day?
Levine
Yeah. It was just on the repair. Just on airframe repairs. That wasn’t—again, the calisthenics or the marching and everything else. So it was a full day.
Young
Okay. And did it start early…
Levine
Yes.
Young
Like in basic training?
Levine
Not as early, but pretty close.
Young
Pretty close? Okay.
Levine
[laughs].
Young
What did your duties entail as an airframe worker?
Levine
Well, again, there’s another story that goes along with that, okay?
Young
Tell it.
Levine
Uh,Well, in—in basic airframe repair, you do anything from sheet metal work to fiber glassing to, umm anything that has to do, again, with—with the frame. Ma—uh, making sure that the—that the actual plane itself is in good shape to fly, okay? From a sheet metal standpoint, and not the electronics standpoint. Obviously, that’s in another area.
But, uh—this—this, again, is a—is another story. I had two left hands, as—as I had mentioned. Uh, I couldn’t hit a hammer—nail with a hammer great, and they’re putting me on working on airplanes. Well, each part of the course was a different thing you did with an—with the airframe. Riveting was one area, sheet met—cutting out certain, uh, pieces on the plane was another area.
Uh, one of the areas that they had, they called them “blocks.” each one was a separate block, and what you did was you learned as part—as in the individual blocks was, uh, fiber glassing, okay? And how to fiberglass, how to use fiberglass, and how to be able to mold it on a plane were necessary things like that. I wish you could’ve seen me doing the fiberglass work. You’d—it’d—it’s a real comedy. It was a real comedy, a real joke.
Young
What was the, uh, difficulty in—in doing that? I don’t—I haven’t worked with fiberglass.
Levine
Well, it’s just mixing—mixing the ras—the resin together…
Young
Oh, okay.
Levine
So it’s the right consistency. Being able to lay out the sheets of fiberglass on there, and smooth it over, sand it down. All of these different areas are part of the—are part of the fiberglass work, okay?
Young
Okay.
Levine
So that—that—that’s—that was part of it. That was one of the blocks.
Young
Alright. And there were other things, like riveting classes?
Levine
How to use a rivet gun properly. Um, All different types—all different of things on—on, Again, using sheet metal, and using—and repairing aircraft.
Young
What did you like best about that?
Levine
Nothing [laughs].
Young
Nothing? Okay. So you kind of felt like you were a...
Levine
I was a…
Young
Round peg…
Levine
Yes.
Young
In a square hole?
Levine
Exactly.
Young
[laughs].
Levine
Exactly. I was not in the proper location.
Young
Okay.
Levine
And unfortunately, the Air Force didn’t realize at the time, okay? They put me through it.
Young
Were your instructors, um, understanding? Or…
Levine
Yes.
Young
Patient? Or…
Levine
They pretty—they were pretty understanding, with the exception of the one from the fiberglass area, because, uh, I ultimately did not pass the test to move on to the next phase of the Airframe Repair School. So I actually had to take a complete week all over—or, em, two weeks, I believe, or three weeks. I had to take that all over again.
Young
All the fiberglass work?
Levine
Yes. The fiberglass portion. And the other ones I had passed…
Young
Uh huh.
Levine
But the fiberglass portion, I had a very difficult time with, and, uh, I had to take that part of the program all over again.
Young
Okay. And then you passed it?
Levine
Yes.
Young
Okay. So now are you ready for the next, uh—for your next assignment?
Levine
Well, again, the reason—now, I was part of a group of students. My class, I think, was like 12 or 14 students in my class. Because I had failed the test, they moved on to the next phase, I had to wait until the next class came along to pick up with them, and to begin the fiberglass portion all over again.
Young
Okay.
Levine
Okay. Which I did. Uh, I think I had to wait a week before the next class came to the point that they were going to do the fiberglass…
Young
Oh, okay. I see.
Levine
Block. So I waved goodbye to all of my fellow students. They had gone—they had gone on to the next phase, and started it, and started the next group. Which a second time I did pass, okay? So I finished and graduated tech school, at that point.
Young
Okay. So you only had to wait behind two weeks, and then do you catch up with your class again?
Levine
No.
Young
No?
Levine
No. Then I’m involved with this next…
Young
Your [inaudible]?
Levine
New class. [inaudible].
Young
Okay. Did you go through all the training you did before?
Levine
No. No. I just picked it up from the fiberglass portion. I’m not sure if it was the third block or the second block. I really don’t remember.
Young
Uh huh.
Levine
But then I just proceeded on with that class. Now, as they had finished block one and block two…
Young
Right.
Levine
And they went into fiber glassing. I had finished one and two, and started in with them as part of my new class, and we continued on together.
Young
Okay. [inaudible].
Levine
So I had to meet all new students, and—and get involved with the new class.
Young
Can you describe an event that wasn’t typical in this particular time of your training? You’re in the six months training now. Is there anything that happened that wasn’t typical of an everyday experience or—that you can think of?
Levine
Mm. Not really. No. It was just pretty much—cou—can’t wait to get out and get an assignment type of situation. And, um, I—Like I said, I did the very best I can. I knew I had no choice, and, uh, I was able to pass and continue on. But it was pretty much the same routine. The only difference that we had was that we had, uh, leave on the weekends, and we were able to go into Amarillo, which There’s not much there. So we did have leave—we did have leave time then. It wasn’t like a seven days a week type of training.
Young
Okay.So not really anything memoral—memorable during this time?
Levine
Not really. No.
Young
Okay. So at six—when you finished that six-month training…
Levine
Mmhmm.
Young
What happened then?
Levine
‘Nother interesting point. I guess—I guess I had more interesting points than I thought I did. When I, um, came out of my next—with my new class, my previous class had gone on. And of course. they graduated from the technical school before I did. They all got their orders, and the entire class got orders for Vietnam, okay? So if I was in that class, I would have ended up going to Vietnam, at the time. My situation was, when I graduated and I saw my orders posted, I got sent to Europe [laughs]. So…
Young
That’s interesting
Levine
It is. It was lu—very lucky. Uh…
Young
At that point, you weren’t too [inaudible] —too very sorry that you weren’t very adept to…
Levine
No. Not really. But of course, you know, that can change—that can change at any time also. But, uh, quite a relief on my family’s part, to say the least.
Young
Right.
Levine
Um, It—it was—it was very, [laughs] very interesting time, believe me. So I was sent to Europe, uh, in what they called a “TDY outfit,” which was temporary duty assignments. Now, I was assigned to work on a [McDonnell Douglas] F-4 [Phantom II] aircraft. they called it the “phantom jet.” I worked on [McDonnell] F-101s [Voodoo], [Republic F-]105s [Thunderchief], uh, various different types of programs.
My basic job was to work on the outboard tanks and pylons. The pylons were, uh, the apparatus that held the bomb racks on. So we were working on putting on bomb racks on the different types of aircraft, and they would then go over to Vietnam.
Young
Okay.
Levine
Now…
Young
So you were specialized in your duties?
Levine
Yes. Yes. We were—we became specialized in our duties. Now, the government, at the time—again, we were set up as a temporary duty assignment. We had—had to go from base to base to work on these different aircraft. The government thought that it would be cheaper for us to travel in groups and work on these tanks and pylons, because the point of the—with these jets are: they had the jettison their outboard tanks and their pylon or bomb racks when they took off after their bombing runs. Because if they kept those on, it would add weight to the plane itself, in which case, they couldn’t get away—get away as quick, uh, without them. So they were continuously jettisoning these, and when they would come back to—to Europe, we’d have to refit them with new ones, and make—and—and get them all set up for them to go out again. Even though most of them were based right in Vietnam or Thailand and that[?], um, they still came for—for, uh, overall maintenance back to the, uh—back to Europe.
Young
Okay.
Levine
So…
Young
Where in Europe were you?
Levine
Okay. I was in, uh, Turkey, Italy, Greece, Libya, England, Spain, and my home base was in Germany, okay? That’s where we worked out of. We worked out of Rhein-Main [Air Base], Germany, in, uh, Frankfurt [am Main, Hesse, Germany], okay? So that’s where my main outfit was. It was Detachment 51.
Young
Okay. And that’s[sic] the ones you graduated with?
Levine
No.
Young
[inaudible].
Levine
Actually, some—Most of them—most of them did go on to that, but I think there were about six or seven that went to different, uh— areas, okay?
Uh, that’s another [laughs]—again, that’s another interesting point. Uh, When I flew over from, uh, New Jersey—McGuire Air Force Base. I left out of McGuire Air Force Base. It’s—it’s a funny story. There were like three planes lined up taking all of us over to Europe. There were two commercial airliners, and then there was what they called a “C-141 Galaxy.” And I said, “Oh, I’m going to go over to Europe in a nice, uh, airliner,” and I ended up going over on a military aircraft, sitting in the seats on the sides [laughs]. So it was kind of a bumpy ride over there.
But when I landed, my orders were to catch up with my unit in what they called—in a place called Chaumont[, Haute-Marne], France, okay? So I landed at Rhein-Main Air Force Base, Germany, caught a shuttle, uh—a military shuttle. Uh, it wasn’t a plane. It was a bus, alright? Down to Chaumont, France. Caught up with my, eh—with my group down there, okay? With my detachment down there. And I noticed as I went into—to the offices to report in, that they’re packing up everything. And I went and signed in, and I said to the desk sergeant or whatever his name was, “What—what’s going on,” okay? “I was told to report here.” They said, “Well, we’re leaving.” I said, “Why are you leaving?” Well, at that time, France was not in the best, you know, of friends with the—with the United States. And, uh, this is part of the NATO [North Atlantic Treaty Organization] Pact, and we were—we were leaving out of France. And I said, “Oh,” I said, “So we’re not going to stay in France?” “No.” “Well, where are we going?” He said, “Rhein-Main Air Force Base in Germany.” I said, “Wait a minute. I just came from there.” [laughs] I said, “I just took a bus and came from Rhein-Main.”
Young
Going to your official[?] [inaudible].
Levine
“Why didn’t anybody tell—why didn’t anybody tell me that I was going to go back to—I would never have left I would have waited for ya there.” Well, as it turned out, we went—we went back to Rhein-Main, and, um, set up shop there, and, uh, proceeded to travel all over Europe, and—and working on these tanks and pylons and—and getting them set, so that they—we can put ‘em on the planes, and they can take off.
Young
Did you have a schedule for where you would be and…
Levine
Yes.
Young
How…
Levine
Yes. We had orders every—every time. Uh…
Young
And how did that work? Or—or did you not know ahead of time?
Levine
Um, when we finished one assignment, we’d come back for a while, and, uh, work around…
Young
Always back to Germany?
Levine
Back to Germany. Right.
Young
Okay.
Levine
And then get our—get our next assignment when we were told to go out…
Young
Okay.
Levine
Again.
Young
What was your relationship with the oth—other service personnel that you worked directly with on the pylons?
Levine
Oh, we, uh—we had a good relationship. I mean, we were a unit. We pretty much hung around together. Uh, when we had time, we played softball, uh, on—in a league on base. And again, I was a lot, a lot thinner [laughs] back then. And, uh, we had—we had a good time. I mean, it was pretty much a regular eight-hour day, okay? Uh, if—whether or not it was at the—at the base that we were at, or at our home base in Germany.
There was—every once in a while, we had assignments. Outside of our unit, was the, uh, uh Boeing 707—I think it was, um, at the time. It was the General of the Air Force’s plane, uh, of Europe
Young
Mmhmm.
Levine
Okay. Uh, [inaudible]. It was the General’s plane—his personal plane—was out there. Actually, come to think of it now, it was the [Boeing] KC-135 [Stratotanker] —was—which was an inflight re-fueler, where those, you know—the planes come up to it, and they drop the boom in that. Well, this was a converted KC-135 for the General. Really nice, nice plane. And we had work on that every once in a while, changing some things, and, you know, making sure that everything was okay.
Young
When you were, uh, at base, or on these assignments, were you always busy? Or were there times that you didn’t—were waiting for the next assignment?
Levine
Uh, No. We were busy most of the time. We were busy most of the time. I mean, once again, it was pretty much and eight-hour day, and when we were done, we had—we were free to do whatever we wanted. It was just, uh, like a normal job, except we worked [inaudible]…
Young
Okay. But there wasn’t a lot of just sit around and wait?
Levine
No, no, no, no.
Young
Okay. How did you stay in touch with your family and friends back home?
Levine
Well, at that time, I was—there—there was no such thing as Skype, or, uh, e-mail, and things like that. So it was pretty much by letter. Just by regular letter. Sna—snail mail.
Young
Snail mail.
Levine
[laughs].
Young
Uh, do you believe you were well-trained for your assignment?
Levine
As best as they could, considering what they had to deal with [laughs].
Young
Uh, did you always have the equipment and the supplies that you needed…
Levine
Yes.
Young
To do your job?
Levine
Yes. That—that we had no trouble—we had no trouble with.
Young
And you mentioned you played softball.
Levine
Mmhmm.
Young
How else did you entertain yourself when you weren’t on duty?
Levine
Mm. Well, I’d say drink [laughs]. Um, Just going to different, uh—go to the USO [United Service Organization] over there, and saw stag shows, and had one—one or two beers—four or five.
Young
Was there a USO show that was particularly memorable?
Levine
Yes. The Platters. The original Platters were there. And, um, I—I liked them from the beginning, and I was very fortunate to meet ‘em, and, uh, listen—they put on a great show.
Young
Uh huh.Was that in Germany? Or in one of your other assignments?
Levine
No. That was in Germany.
Young
Okay.
Levine
It was in Germany [sniffs]. But When I—I was in Spain, uh, over one of the New Year’s [Eve]. I was in, uh, Madrid, Spain, and got and to see a flamenco show there. A real, real flamenco show, which was pretty good.
Young
Did you take advantage of any, uh, sightseeing, or…
Levine
Oh, yes.
Young
Or tours…
Levine
Yes.
Young
When you were there?
Levine
Yes.
Young
Okay. That would be entertaining [inaudible]
Levine
Actually, um, I got married while—while I was overseas.
Young
Uh huh.
Levine
And my wife was in the States. She was a—she was an American. She was German—born German, but, um, I married—I got married. And she was able to come over to Europe and get a job in Germany, while I was gone. Fortunately enough, she, um, uh spoke German. So she was able to get around the economy very nicely while I was gone, because I was gone most of the time.
Young
Uh huh.
Levine
But it was nice to have her over there. And when—when I was back there, we were able to travel around.
Young
Oh, nice.
Levine
We were able to go to Holland,[1] and, uh, visit a lot of Germany. Go around—go around Germany.
Young
That’s a—that’s very, uh—very nice thing to have happened…
Levine
Mmhmm.
Young
While you’re
Levine
Mmhmm.
Young
Young, and, uh—and not a lot of money…
Levine
Right. Exactly.
Young
You cantravel around on…
Levine
Exactly.
Young
Uh, Uncle Sam’s dime.
Levine
Mmhmm.
Young
Uh, when were you—tell me about your ranking and how that—and how you…
Levine
Well, actually, I became a sergeant.
Young
You ended up a staff sergeant.
Levine
Uh, pardon me?
Young
You ended up as a staff sergeant. I saw on your…
Levine
Yeah. It was a…
Young
Okay. You start off as a—tell me how that works.
Levine
Well, you just go in as an airman.
Young
Okay.
Levine
Okay. And then, at that time, it was, um, second class, first class, and sergeant.
Young
Okay.
Levine
Actually, I think I mis—misstated. Um, I was three stripes, which was considered a sergeant at the time.
Young
Uh huh.
Levine
Okay. Four stripes is a staff sergeant, so…
Young
Okay.
Levine
I made three. If I had reenlisted, I probably would have gotten a fourth stripe.
Young
Okay. Alright. So you ended up as a sergeant?
Levine
Right.
Young
Okay. And, um, when were you discharged from the military?
Levine
August of 1970. When I rotated back from the States, I, uh, was stationed in, uh, Shaw Air Force Base in Sumter, South Carolina, which was about 7-8 months. So I lived in South Carolina, outside of Columbia.
Young
And how long were you there?
Levine
I think it was 7-8 months. Something like that.
Young
Seven—okay. Um, how did you feel once you were out of the military?
Levine
Relieved. Um, Glad I did what I did. Uh, kind of—Kind of upset as to what was going on, while I was in the military, back home with the individual tour—“pacifists,” I guess you call them—or against the war in Vietnam. I mean, I was not all in favor of what was going on, but, uh, when I did come home on leave at one time, uh, it was not ver— it was not a very good situation. I mean, we were—for all intents and purposes, we were spat at, at the airports, when we walked through. Nobody said, “Thank you for your service.” And, uh, they just didn’t like it. They didn’t like anybody in the military, or anybody in uniform. So that—that kind of part was tough.
Um, Again, I was relieved. But on the other hand, I felt that all of my friends—I was the only one of all my friends back in Rochester. I was the only one to go into the military, and felt that I was four years behind them in education and—and, um—and just getting on with my life. So, you know, it—both sides. I felt good with serving, but on the other hand, I felt that I lost some time.
Young
Um, once you were out, what did you do?
Levine
[sniffs] Another good, interesting situation. Uh, when I got out of the service, my wife became pregnant [laughs]. And, uh, it was probably from the week I got discharged [laughs]
Young
Uh huh.
Levine
She—she got pregnant. In which case, if she got pregnant while we were in the military, the government would have paid for it. If she had given birth while I was in, the military would have paid for it.
But I, uh—when I got out of the service, my main goal was to get back to school. I wanted to get my degree in accounting and—and go on from there. But a little s—s—little turn of events when your wife becomes pregnant. Going to day school is pretty difficult. So I took a job. um, and again, I got out in August, and, uh, school was going to start in September, but I was gonna take—go to night school, okay? And—and get a job during the day. But until that time started, I went to work at McDonald’s, uh, slinging hamburgers. See, eh, eh, my memory’s coming back. I was going to go to day school.
Young
Uh huh.
Levine
So I wasn’t going to enroll until September, but I needed some—to get some income coming in, uh, for my wife and that. So I went to work at McDonald’s slinging hamburgers, which was not a great experience. Because here’s an older gentleman, who’s, uh, slinging hamburgers with a bunch of teenagers, and looking at me, thinking, Boy, he must be a real loser if he’s doing this, not knowing the situation. But I got the job in telling ‘em that I was going to—I wanted to go to school training to become a manager at McDonald’s. This is how I got the job. And, uh, the owner of the place said, “Okay.” He said, “But you—but in order to do that, you have to learn all the different areas of—of McDonald’s.” French fries, working on the grill, the clean-up, the whole bit. . I said, “Okay.” Well, that lasted about a week—week and a half—and I just couldn’t handle it anymore. I would come home smelling terrible from all the fat that was in the French fries. So that lasted maybe a week—week and a half.
But we managed. Um, and I did start going to school, but things got to a point where I just needed to get money. So I went—I was going back to night school. I went to night school, and got a job. Uh, at that time, [sniffs] I was working, I believe, at one of the local manufacturing companies in their finance department. I was working in their cost accounting department. Even though I didn’t have a degree, they—they put me on as—in a lower level type of position. But it was bringing in income, and I—I was able to go to school at night.
Young
And where was this, Larry?
Levine
Rochester Institute of Technology.
Young
Oh, you were back in…
Levine
Yeah.
Young
Back in New York.
Levine
I was back in Rochester. I went back to New York.
Young
Okay. Were you—were there any G.I.[2] benefits
Levine
Yes.
Young
That you were able to take advantage of?
Levine
Yes. Absolutely. I was on the G.I. Bill.[3] Helped me pay for my schooling. Yes. Definitely.
Young
Okay. And so you’re working in the daytime and…
Levine
Mmhmm.
Young
And going to school at night.
Levine
Right.
Young
Okay.
Levine
Mmhmm.
Young
And, uh, we talked about how you were treated…
[background noise]
Young
When you came home, and that, um, there was, um, uh, disrespect…
Levine
Mmhmm.
Young
Dor you as a soldier. Now…
Levine
Right.
Young
Was that set across the board every time you came home on leave? Or, uh, did you notice that when you would go to New York? Or when you would go—when you came back to South Carolina? Was there a difference in the way the local people treated you?
Levine
Not really. No. Not that I can remember. It was just an area that they didn’t go out of their way to—to do anything. More like they were trying to ignore us, then, um—like we were the—the plague.
Young
Mmhmm.
Levine
Okay. And just no—no respect. No respect for anyone. And that’s what makes me feel so good now is that you’re seeing these, uh, individuals in the military, and people are giving them respect and thanking them for their service. So that’s one of the areas where I—I felt cheated out of also—is not getting the respect and that, because it was four years of my life, and that’s a long time.
Young
It is a long time, especially at that age.
Levine
Right. Exactly.
Young
Uh, did your military experience affect your civilian life in any way?
Levine
I became more appreciative of life. Um, More appreciative of the things that I—that I was able to get, uh, of—of my family at the time. Because being away from them most of the—now fortunately, like I said, my wife was able to come with—to come with me over to Europe, but, uh, I missed my brothers and my—and my father. My mother had passed away prior to that, so, uh—but, yeah. Uh, a lot of things, uh—a lot of things that I was more appreciative of, at the time.
Young
Do you think that you were more serious in your education than you would have been as a 20…
Levine
Most definitely. Most definitely. That’s a very good point. I looked at my education totally different. Uh, more—I—I was more involved with history. Um, I—I didn’t feel at the time—you see, there was a lot—a lot difference in going to school and being, pretty much, made to go to school, or that—that was the norm. You—you went to high school. You finished high school. You went to college and then you went on from there.
And because of the interruption, I looked at it from a different stand point that, you know, this is an opportunity. This is a great opportunity, and, uh, the government is helping me with this opportunity, through the G.I. Bill. I’m going to take full advantage of it. So I took full courses. And if anybody knows about Rochester, New York, and going to school at night in Rochester, New York, in the middle of winter is not easy. Okay. It was cold. It was freezing. It was snowing. But, uh, I had a family to support, and I wanted to be able to get my education, so Luckily, I was able to complete it.
Young
Okay. Looking back on it all, can you describe about how you feel about your service? You said that you were glad you did it…
Levine
Mmhmm. Mmhmm.
Young
And anything else you want to add to that?
Levine
No. Other—other than the fact that, um, I personally think that it makes a—a person better going into the military. And I for one, feel that it should be mandatory, because there’s a lot of kids that are going to—to education and that, because they don’t know what else to do.
Young
And so you feel it…
Levine
Okay. And I think when they say it—when they say…
Young
Gives them time to mature and…
Levine
I’m sorry. What’s that?
Young
It gives them time to mature…
Levine
Absolutely.
Young
And to learn…
Levine
Absolutely.
Young
A little about the world and…
Levine
And to grow up…
Young
And to grow up.
Levine
And to grow up…
Young
And to learn some discipline [laughs].
Levine
Yes. That’s the other area. That’s the other area. Like I said, so many don’t know what they want to do with themselves, and they end up in the military. Although they didn’t give me the opportunity to go in the direction that I wanted to. It certainly opened up my eyes to a lot of things. And one is independence. You know, being independent, being able to do things on your own, uh, washing your own clothes, making your own bed, uh, choosing the right things to do.
Young
Did you become more adept to working with your hands?
Levine
I wish I could say yes [laughs].
Young
[laughs] Some things you just can’t learn.
Levine
Some things that you—you have a difficult time doing. That’s correct. Um, I think I’m a little better with a hammer and nails now than I was. I wouldn’t go as far as work with any kind of sheet metal or anything, because I’m sure I would cut my fingers up in shreds, but Yeah. I think I’m a little bit better. I can—I can…
Young
Well, Larry, I thank you for your service. And I thank you for this—for you doing this…
Levine
Well, it was a pleasure.
Young
With us.
Levine
Very enjoyable. Very enjoyable.
Young
And, uh, I enjoyed talking with you about it.
Levine
Mmhmm. Thank you. Thank you.
Hanke
Okay. Today is the 21st of November, 2014. My name is Gabrielle Hanke and I am here interviewing Dr. William "Bill" Blank. He served in the Army from 1971 until 1974. He ultimately reached the rank of Specialist 4 and was stationed in Mannheim, [Baden-Württemberg,] Germany. I am interviewing him as part of the University of Central Florida’s [Community] Veterans History Project and this interview is being conducted in Orlando, Florida. Alright, so let’s start off with your early years.
Blank
Okay. Um, well as with most military vets, I would guess they would say a couple of words that might define their experience would be “conflict” and “adventure.” I think, you know, traditionally, that the military definitely offered both of those, and when I think of the conflict, I actually think of conflict here at home rather than abroad. Um, that was a—a pretty tumultuous time, um, in our society regarding world events, world affairs, and the military’s involvement in those events, um, specifically looking at the Vietnam War. And uh—it—it really began after I had already begun college.
I was a—a college student. I’d been going to school for several months and, uh, back in 1971. In the fall of 1971, they had the lottery, and it’s not like you think of the lottery today where you can win a million dollars, but rather, the lottery was determining who was going to be getting a draft notice. And, uh, my number happened to be 31. And up until about 100, those individuals could be expecting to get a draft notice. And so, uh, we—we had a—an opportunity—I guess I’m going to call it, uh—if you knew you that you were going to be getting a draft notice, you had several months typically to enlist as a—a prelude to getting that draft notice or—or in lieu of getting that draft notice. What were the advantages of that? One was that we—we had—we were actually kind of transitioning into what they called the “all-volunteer Army,” which began a year later. So this was really a year to sort of field test some of the constructs of that all-volunteer Army. And by enlisting prior to getting the draft notice, we were able to go in under something they called the “buddy system.”
And so my best friend from high school—who was coincidentally my college roommate—who also had a very low number for that lottery, we decided together to go ahead and enlist in the Army and that would give us the opportunity of going in under the buddy system. And what that really meant is that we were able to go through basic training together. And if you can imagine a couple of kids from a small industrial town, uh, in North Central Wisconsin, who had not previously ventured far from their backyard, were going to be going somewhere around the world, um, experiencing this major adventure. And so by at least starting off by having that kind of security blanket, that—that familiar face going through basic was really important and, um—and it actually meant a lot, I think, to many people, um, who had that opportunity.
So we went in, we volunteered, uh—enlisted. Uh, we—we went to basic training together. And then the second benefit of enlisting rather than actually getting the draft notice was we had the ability to have input in terms of what we would be doing in the military. And since I had taken electronics classes in high school, uh, they had determined to send me to a—a communications technician program—electronics training basically—which worked well for me.
And then the third benefit of enlisting was that—although it was not a guarantee—it—it really came down to the demand of the military at that time, but, um, you could at least give preferences for where you wanted to be stationed. um, and one of mine was to—to be able to go to Germany and, uh—actually, when we finished our training, I—I started off with orders for Vietnam, but because they were starting to pull back on the numbers of people they were sending to Vietnam, uh—they backed down on the Vietnam, uh, orders and transitioned them to Germany, and so I did get to go to Germany for three years. So I thought that was going to be a pretty positive experience for me.
And—and, um, to—to maybe give just a little bit more background, it was—it was a really difficult time actually, um, for young men primarily—although there were some women that were also going in—but men were the ones that were getting drafted, because of the societal views on the Vietnam War.
It was not a righteous war. Um, America had not been threatened. Our interests abroad had not been threatened. And so for many people in the country, um, there was resistance to the war and—and that was especially evident, um, on college campuses. Uh, having been a college student, you know, we all—we all had kind of a common perception of the war and, um, and that probably peaked in 1970, when at Kent State [University], the [Ohio] National Guard killed—I believe it was four or five students and then many others were injured as well, when the Ohio National Guard opened up on—on a group of protesters at that institution.
Um, and so, going into the military, going from student to—to soldier literally in a couple of short months created, I guess, a great deal of, um, cognitive dissonance, or at least it made me really question my values and philosophies about living and learning versus, um, you know, doing my duty and, um, you know, agreeing to uh, protect, and pr—um, protect society, uh, which—which was something that, um—in my family, you know—it was pretty conservative. That was kind of a—a passed down value, um, or—or philosophy, I guess, on life.
You do what you’re told to do by the authorities and—and you do it gladly. And uh, my grandfather had been in World War I and I—I remembered talking to him frequently and seeing all of his photographs. And so there was kind of that sense that, um, I need to pick up the torch in my family system and—and do my job for the military. So, two—two conflicting, um, life views really. Um—and—and I was not alone. That was pretty common I think for many young people at that time.
But nevertheless, I ended up going to Germany. And, um, one of my very first experiences in Germany, ironically, was being the point person, um, in a riot squad. When you think of a riot squad as a “V” and—and they ask for somebody, or they told somebody, “You’re going to be the point person.” And that was developed because of some of the international protests to the Vietnam War. Uh, [President Richard Milhous] Nixon had been doing quite a lot of carpet-bombing, where he would just saturate the country with explosives and—and so European students were protesting, as well. So I’m a student one day and a few months later, I’m actually wearing a uniform with an M-16, with a bayonet on it, and I’m the point person with students from Germany, um, attempting to infiltrate our base or—or surge our fences—and—and that put me in a really awkward position as well. Fortunately, um, nothing happened to the extent that we had to make contact with them, um, but—but nevertheless, it—it really made me question what I was doing and—and whether or not it was a valid, um, experience. Uh, so—so that was my introduction to Germany.
And then, um, just about a year later, I was actually going to teletype school, which was just outside of Munich[, Bavaria, Germany] in a small town called Bad Tölz [, Bavaria, Germany]. Teletype was sort of the prelude or the precursor to, um, e-mail. And, uh, just a—a few weeks into that training, uh, there was an attack at Olympic Village.[1] the—the 1972 Summer Olympics were going in Munich, by, um, a group of, um—uh, I guess for a lack of a better word, I would call them “terrorists”—the Black September [Organization] group—the—they were known as, attacked Israeli athletes and ended up—they kidnapped them initially in exchange for, um, over 200 prisoners that were in Israeli jails, uh—Arab prisoners. And, um, when Israel did not negotiate with them, they—they actually ended up killing all of the athletes, along with a German police officer. And, being in Munich at that time, all of the American soldiers were put on alert and, um, it was a pretty tense few days not knowing if that terror would—would, um, transition into some of the American facilities. Um, Mark Spitz was a—a—like a five—I think he won five golds that year for swimming. Uh, they—they rushed him out of Germany and—and flew him back to the United States being a—a Jewish athlete. So again, political, um, unrest and violence across the world, um, was starting to really boil. I think that was probably a, uh, maybe a—an omen of what was to come for America up the road, um, with the Middle East.
And—and we got through it and things seemed to settle down a bit and then, literally a year later, um, my armor unit, we had about 30 to 40 tanks in—in the unit that I was stationed with in Germany, um—80-ton tanks—60-ton tanks, I guess they were. And each year, we would go up to Northern Germany to qualify those tank crews on the firing ranges. And in 1973—in the fall of ‘73—we were up there doing just that, when, um, a number of Arab countries, um, attacked Israel, um, and—and that that was led, um, primarily by, um, let me see. I need to—to—to kind of just refresh my memory. The coalition of Arab states[2] was led by Syria. Egypt and Syria were the two countries that were really kind of spearheading that attack. Um, they were trying to win back, uh, land that was lost years earlier in the Three Day War. This was called the Yom Kippur Wer[sic]—Wer[sic]—War, because it was occurring during that holiday—that Jewish holiday[3]—um, and also the Arab[4] holiday of Ramadan. And so, um, it was kind of ironic that we’re celebrating these two religious holidays, and in the midst of them, they—they create another war.
At any rate, um, literally overnight, all of our tanks were, um, repainted in desert camouflage to—to make us ready to, um, be transported to the Middle East to intervene. Both Russia and the U.S., uh, really mustered their forces in terms of supplies and armament to their respective allies in the Middle East. And—and—and we came this close to, um, a world war with Russia at this point—the two superpowers colliding. Um, fortunately after three weeks, a—a ceasefire though occurred and, uh, that was, uh, the beginning of, um, a series of peace talks that helped to create a little bit more harmony in the Middle East.
Uh, so at any rate, I—I had a number of conflicts that were right on the edge of reality, in terms of drawing my unit into all of them. And so, probably not unlike with most soldiers, there’s always that, um, impeding war or that impending, um, “police action”—as Vietnam and Korea were called—uh, on the cusp of—of every morning.
Um, but—but in spite of all of that, I would say that I—I got a great deal out of the experience that I had in the military. I think when—when I look at, um, what that did for me, in terms of just the confidence and the self-responsibility, um, just the—the, um, I—I think ability to—to live my life more independently and autonomously. Um, the military was truly responsible for that. I think, in addition to that, there were relationships that were forged while in the military that were like no other relationships since, in terms of being very authentic and—and really, um, having that sense of cohesion that common bond or shared reality with other soldiers. Um, those relationships really truly turned out to be lifelong relationships.
And then, in addition to, um, being able to benefit from the GI Bill [Servicemen’s Readjustment Act of 1944], as a first generation college student, I was able to—to get my education—undergraduate and graduate education—um, at least partially funded by the military. um, gave me the opportunity to really get back to the, uh, goal of—of living and learning life, helping other people, uh, develop academically as a—an educational counselor and—and educational teacher. I think ultimately, all of that cumulatively allowed me to give back to the military in that, after getting my—my graduate degree in counseling, I was able to, um, develop a course for chronically unemployed Vietnam vet[eran]s, and—and, um, administer that six-week course throughout the state of Wisconsin, resulting in a national award with an over 80 percent placement rate at the end of that year for—for these, uh, participants.
And then, beyond that at other institutions, um, at Warren Air Force Base in Cheyenne[, Wyoming], I—I taught ongoing workshops for military, who are retiring after 20 or 30 years, to help them more easily transition into civilian life and the civilian workforce. And then even here at—at UCF [University of Central Florida], I have the opportunity to work closely with veterans.
When we had the war with Iraq, and many of our UCF students were called out who were National Guard or Reservists, I actually created a—a long distance career counseling service for those veterans and extended it to all of their cohorts. um, and—and helped them to really, um, evaluate their life experiences in—in the face of being a warrior and how that was influencing changing career goals and helping them to adjust their academic programs, and then also to help assist them with the transition once they came back to college. Um, so, and—and then more recently, with the—the veterans academic resource grant that we got, I’m one of the committee members for that grant, and I’ve been able to really help infuse some professional development programing for veterans with job fairs and things of that nature.
So ultimately, you know, I—I can go back 40 years and I can see how the military really shaped me and—and how that military thread has consistently woven through my life, um, to, you know, my—my early 60s, where I am now, and—and how that’s been such a—a, I guess a pivotal experience in my life. It shaped me truly more than any other experience I’ve had thus far. So, that’s—that’s the summary of my story and, um, I stand by it.
Hanke
Well, that was very good. Um, if we could go into some more details such as, uh, how were you trained during this time of there was conflict, but then there wasn’t almost. Like, it was a very iffy time. Could you tell me a little more about that?
Blank
Well, I—I think with—with anyone in the military at any time, you’re—you’re on constant alert and you’re involved in continuous training and we were always prepared for the worst. Um, we were ready to be mobilized as with, uh, the war, uh, in the Middle East. Literally in a few days, our entire, uh, battalion would be ready to transition over to the Middle East from Germany. Um, constant training. And I think, uh, there was also, um, quite a lot of educational programming, um, helping us to—I—I think, understand where we fit with all of the world events that were going on. Um, I don’t think we were discouraged from challenging ideas and beliefs, but I think because we were the military, there was always that, um, underlying focus on it’s our job to—to go in the event that we’re called out and do what we’ve been trained to do. It was our duty—our responsibility. So no matter where one might have been, um, in terms of their political ideologies, they were ready to do their job. And I am absolutely confident that—that we all would have done what we would have been asked to do as—as were soldiers in every war before ours.
HankeOkay. And then, um, I know there was, um, the issue of the Warsaw Pact[5] coming around. Um, what was it like uh—I mean like the air? The aura almost of being in Germany—being so close?
Blank
Well I—I did, because I was in Germany and—and because I so much enjoy and appreciate history, I did spend a—a great deal of my personal time while there learning about the history of, um, all of the events of World War II and how Europe had transformed as a result of the war.
And then with the Berlin Wall going up around, um, the time of my birth, uh, it was interesting to learn more about that and—and experience what it was like behind the Curtain—the Iron Curtain. And while I was there, I spent all of my—my vacation time, uh, travelling throughout Europe, um, going actually to Southern Europe to, um, the—the Third Reich headquarters, um, and Bavaria[, Germany], and seeing some of the—the facilities—the Eagle’s Nest[6] that [Martin] Bormann had built for [Adolf] Hitler.
And, um, and then also going to some of the countries that had been, um, uh, freed as a result of American intervention in the war. Um, France, and going up to Belgium, Holland, Luxembourg, seeing where the Battle of the Bulge occurred in Bastogne[, Belgium]. Um, and talking to people up there and actually living with a German family for the three years. I was there and hearing their stories. They were terrified of the Nazis,[7] I think, as any European may have been at that time. Um, it—it was really interesting to get that personal perspective from people and—and talk to people who had actually been there during those wars—during that war—and, uh, hearing their, um, personal life histories.
Hanke
Yeah. That’s very interesting. And then, um, let’s see. How did you feel—I know you weren’t there at the time—but when the Berlin Wall finally came down?
Blank
Um, it—it was amazing to me. and—and I—I guess what—what I guess the personal connection for me—it went up the year I was born and it was torn down the year my sons were born.[8] And—and so I look at, within that lifetime, what a dramatic change. And that was certainly an indication of, uh, what was to come with some of the, um, eastern countries, and now the Middle Eastern countries as well, um, as far as that goes—in terms of democracy and in terms of people having freedom of choice.
So when I thought about that, it helped to legitimize my involvement during the Vietnam period, again which was pretty tumultuous, um, politically- and society-wise, um, especially as a—an 18 year old not very knowledgeable about much in life at that point. Um, every experience I had, uh, was sort of a first time exposure for me. I didn’t have the—I guess the cognitive ability to—to maybe put it all in perspective early on, it really evolved over time.
Hanke
And then, um—how do you feel? Has the military changed in its attitudes? As you were saying, um, your generation—you did your duty. Do you feel that that has carried over to this generation?
Blank
It—it—it has, um, to my amazement and to my pleasure. I have seen amazing, amazing, changes. Colonel [Richard] Toliver talked about that even from, uh, pre-Vietnam era and World War II era—how things have changed. And I think for veterans, in particular—during the Vietnam era, we were either openly discriminated against, um, chastised, or we were politely tolerated at best, but we were never, never celebrated. I can honestly say that in 40 years, not one person ever even acknowledged my time in the service, much less thank me for it, until a couple years ago, um, here at UCF when—when the veterans’ memorial was—was opened up, about two years ago, I guess it was.
And now, it’s totally amazing, is that anytime people realize that—that I had been a veteran, if I have my—my flag on or if I go to a—a veteran program here, um, they all say “Bill, thank you for your service.” I came into work on Veterans’ Day and—and there was a—a card taped to my door and all my staff had signed it, uh, thanking me for my service. And that’s like something I never ever would have expected to happen. I mean, you can’t imagine, unless you lived through it, um, you know, returning war veterans being spit upon and—and criticized and—and yelled at—to—to being thanked. I mean, that is a true, positive transition. I think it speaks volumes about how the American military is viewed in this country, at least today. Um, I had an opportunity to go to the, um, the Marine officer training school in [Marine Corps Base] Quantico[, Triangle, Virginia], and, uh, it was amazing how—how they were so excited about the opportunity to—to put themselves in harm’s way to protect their country. Um, a real different attitude, not just by society, but by soldiers as well.
Hanke
Do you have an opinion on what caused this?
Blank
Well, you know the concept of nationalism. During World War II, there was this wave of nationalism. We were attacked and we were going to defend our country. We were going to do what we needed to—to protect our families and our way of life. And, um, now again, with the attack on the World Trade Centers[sic] and—and the terrorist attacks coming from the Middle East, we have been threatened. And, um, our—our interests abroad have been threatened. Um, our—our homeland has been threatened and, indeed, attacked. And so, that’s what it requires, I think, for that wave of nationalism to occur.
During Vietnam, again as—as I said earlier, none of that was threatened, and there were so many questions about why are we there, what we were doing. Um, are we causing more harm than good? And so, when—when the war’s not a righteous war, you’re not going to get that support. When the war is righteous, that support with be there. Hopefully, um, our s—our government, our politicians, you know, learn something from that and they—they won’t be too eager to go to war un—unless there’s just cause.
Hanke
Yeah, and, um, speaking of politicians, I know it was around the Vietnam War where things were really—people were starting to question it and especially with Watergate [Scandal] —what do you remember of that?
Blank
Yeah. Watergate actually happened when I was still in Germany, but I remember coming back and, um, you know—how that—that was the—I guess you could call it the—the straw that broke the camel’s back, so to speak for Nixon. Um, as early as the—the late 60s, he was—Nixon was—was being viewed as the person who was escalating the Vietnam War. Um, I think already there was a—a tide of resistance about him and then Watergate pretty much cinched it for him.
Um, but it—it—it didn’t help to sort of regain confidence in government. I think it helped to further, um, support the concept that the government doesn’t always make good decisions and—and they’re not always, um, principled and ethical people who are running government. And so I think for—for Vietnam era veterans, you know, it—it sort of justified the views that they may have held about government. And—and we were separating military from government. A lot of people in the military didn’t necessarily support what heads of government—heads of state were—were doing and—and the kinds of decisions that they were making.
Hanke
And then, um, what was your homecoming like? Did people distinguish between you were in Vietnam or you were in Germany? Or did they…
Blank
No. If you had a uniform on, you weren’t seen in in a positive light. And so veterans quickly learned to not present themselves as returning veterans. Um, as soon as we got back, um, I can vividly recall my duffel bag with all my uniforms and gear went into a Goodwill bin. Um, the first thing I did was grow my hair out so I wouldn’t look like a veteran. Um, I didn’t want to be, um, targeted and—and truly they—they were. We were.
Hanke
And, um, how did your family feel about you going into the military at this time and…
Blank
They didn’t really want me to, quite honestly. But again with—with the draft, there wasn’t really an option. I—I think they were probably ambivalent about the war as well. and when literally every single night for a—at least a full hour on the national news, we were seeing clips of Vietnam with—with people’s sons and husbands and fathers being killed left and right and in large numbers. Um, there—there wasn’t a lot of support from family members for their sons to go into that situation.
Hanke
So, now you said you were initially, um, listed as going to Vietnam, correct? How did…
BlankRight. Right.
Hanke
How did you feel about that?
Blank
I—I was concerned about it, but, you know, if—if that’s where they needed me to be, uh—just like every other individual who went through basic training or advanced individual training, you went where they told you to go. The military was very effective at, um, kind of creating that—that cohesion and that common bond where you go and support your fellow veteran—your fellow, um, soldiers, rather.
Hanke
And then, um, you said uh, it was thr—through the military you made these very unique relationships. Do you still keep in contact with people?
Blank
Um, not—not so much anymore at this point in in my life, um, but for the first decade or so after getting out, um, there—there was ongoing contact. Unfortunately, um, probably of the—the two or three people that I really bonded tightly with in my unit, uh, one of them was killed, um, in Germany, um, through—through an accident. And, uh, the other one relocated back to Pennsylvania, which was on the other side of the country as me. I was, um, in Wisconsin and then ultimately Colorado. So we—we sort of lost touch as well.
But, um, one of my coworkers picked up grandparents the other day from the airport, and took them to Lakeland, where her grandfather was reconnecting with a—a military cohort from his time during World War II. And she was sharing with me how rewarding it was when she saw them, um, connect, um, for the first time. and—and they embraced each other and literally, uh, began crying because, I—I think when—when you see those people after so many years, it’s that whole flood of emotions that that come to the surface. Colonel [Richard] Toliver talked about that when he wrote his book,[9] um—how it’s a bit difficult, because so many of the emotions from wartime resurface. But—but I think they can be positive emotions too. It’s not just all negative memory. It’s—it’s the relationships that were so crucial, I think, to that lifelong, I guess, association with the military.
Hanke
And, um, I know it was a very serious time, but what did you guys do for fun?
Blank
Well, that’s the, uh, the other side I talked about, you know, for everybody going in the military. It’s conflict and adventure. And—and it’s kind of a strange combination, because sometimes they may be one and the same. But, um, being in an armored unit, um, as an 18 year old kid and we have these 60-ton tanks, uh, it was pretty amazing to be able to play with them. We—we had some areas where we would practice, um, driving them. And—and Americans would discard cars in that area that they couldn’t take back to the States, because they didn’t have seatbelts, safety glass, all of that. So imagine a Volkswagen with—with 60-ton tanks driving over it, one after another. Um, those—that was the kind of activity that made it pretty exciting.
But then beyond what we did in the military, um, uh, you know, beyond when—when we’d go on maneuvers, I would be driving our operations major, scouting a place to camp out with—with you know 30 tanks and all the crews and support peoples. So I had a four-wheel drive Jeep and we’d—we would be going through the hillsides and having quite an adventure of it.
But, in addition to all of that, when I wasn’t working, um, I traveled a lot. I got my international driver’s license as soon as I could, bought a car, and every single weekend I was gone. I was visiting all parts of Western Europe. In a weekend, you could go just about anywhere, because Europe is such a small landmass. Took all my vacations over there. Um, my parents came over, um, for a couple weeks to—to visit, and we traveled all over Western Europe to—to help them experience it, as well.
Um, and then the German family I lived with, they—they sort of adopted me as a—a[sic] international, um, son—I guess for lack of a better term. And they—they took me everywhere with them when they would go off on weekends. They helped me to really experience the culture and the diversity of Germany and really learn to appreciate what Germany is today. And I think as a result of that, um, you know, knowing what it felt like to be a stranger in a foreign land and then to have people befriend me and kind of help me. Whether it was, you know, teaching me how to, um—say “vergaser,” which is German for carburetor, which I needed to know when I went to the auto-mechanic to tell him I needed a—a “neu vergaser.” Um, to—to, you know, teaching me how they celebrated, um, the holidays and—and what Christmas meant to them, taking me to church with them on Christmas Eve. Uh, all of that was really eye opening.
As a result of that, I became an international student mentor here, um, for our international students, where each year I take one on and, um, have that mentor-mentee relationship to help them adapt and adjust to the United States and to UCF, and just guide them through the everyday issues that—that one faces when—when one is in a foreign land.
Hanke
That’s very good.
Blank
So a lot of adventure, um, and—and again, I think it’s that combination of coming into adulthood and experiencing, um, all of those new challenges and—and adventures that, um, people in the military never ever, ever forget.
Hanke
Is there, uh, any specific moments that stand out to you? That you can still see?
Blank
Um, well, one time, when—when we were on a maneuver—in terms of a memorable experience—the German forests are pretty dense and—and pretty rugged still. They have wild boars which—which have large, razor-like teeth, and—and—and, um, horns, and they can be literally deadly, if you’re caught out in the open with them—if they do attack you. And I recall one night—this may seem a bit bizarre—but having to relieve myself, I left the safety of the 60-ton tank and walked out into the woods, and I heard something snorting. And it didn’t take me but about two and a half seconds to get back on top of that tank. And sure enough, a herd of razorback came running by me, and, um, I felt fortunate I wasn’t out there.
Um, and—and then—and then maybe, um, another time I—I guess I remember well—was actually a trip to Paris[, France] to do some sight-seeing. And—and I was able to really experience Paris and [the Palace of] Versailles and all the history, and—and I didn’t fully appreciate what I was witness to until I got back to the States and began college. And I was in a world history class where the professor was talking about the French Revolution, and, um, Queen [Marie] Antoinette, and—and the guil—guillotines, and Versailles and—and all the other students had kind of a blank look on their face. And I’m thinking Oh, yeah, I—I know that, I was actually there. When he talked about the Hall of Mirrors in the Palace of Versailles, I was there.
Um, when they got into the World War II history and—and talked about some of the early meetings between, um, the different diplomats at, uh, the Eagle’s Nest, or Hitler’s tea house, I was there. Um, everything that was being discussed, I had actually been there in person and had experienced personally. Um, and so, it, I think it made me fully, at that point, understand what a treasure that was for me to have had that opportunity for travel and just seeing parts of the world unknown that I never would have been able to experience had I not been in the military.
Hanke
So, what would you say to someone who is considering enlisting in the military today?
Blank
It—it’s a—it’s a dangerous time to go in the military right now, uh, but I would never discourage it. Um, I actually teach a course—a graduate career counseling course—for, uh, graduate students who are preparing to go into school counseling. And every semester, I bring in, uh, representatives from the military to teach them about opportunities in the military, so that they at least are aware of them when they work with their high school students up the road. And—and I share with them, you know—it’s a personal decision for individuals, but we need to be letting young people know this is an opportunity.
Um, war—war can certainly be dangerous, but there are so many benefits in the military and—and especially in terms of helping to, um, complete one’s education. The military is so supportive of that financially and otherwise. Um, and so, I wouldn’t discourage anyone. um, it—it’s awkward though, because I—I know there’s a good chance today that people could absolutely be, um, in a combat situation and, um, knowing what can happen in combat it—it creates a bit of dissonance with me. But I—I regret that young people today don’t have the same opportunity I did. They—they—young men, in particular—we—we needed that kind of safe haven to—to mature and develop.
At 18, most young men are not ready for college and they’re not ready for life. And so to have that three year period where they—they have the protection of the military. Someone to feed and clothe and house you, but yet challenge you to mature and become responsible. I—I regret that young men don’t have that today. I regret that my own sons, who are 25, have never had that experience.
Ironically, I’ve got a 29 year old, young man who works for me now—a new staff member—and, um, he’s never ironed his shirt. And in the military, we learn to press and starch all of our uniforms to great precision. And, um, this is probably my experience of the year—for me this year. He brought his ironing board, his iron, and a can of starch along with a shirt and a pair of pants and he asked me to teach him how to iron based on my knowledge of how to do that from the military. We—we took pride in our appearance and we were called on it if we weren’t attentive to it. And I—I try to encourage young men today to do the same. One—one of many, many, um, benefits or—or attributes to being in the military.
Hanke Yeah. Um, uh, speaking of the recent conflicts in the Middle East, you said the conflicts that you experienced personally—you feel they were ominous almost?
Blank Absolutely.
Hanke So, um, how did you feel about first [Operation] Desert Storm[10] and then the recent [Iraq] War?[11]
Blank Supportive of it, because their sovereign country had been attacked—Kuwait had been attacked. And—and, uh, I—I—I think, as—as, I believe, every past veteran would have seen, that was a—a just action.
And, um, I think the difference though there versus in Vietnam, um—they put the full military behind it. In Vietnam, uh, there—there were so many restrictions about how that war was approached. And—and as a result of that, it went on. It actually started in in 1954 with [President Dwight David] Eisenhower, when—when he showed political and financial support for South Vietnam.[12] Um, but then, as it continued, uh, into the 60s—with the advisors and over war, and then escalated numbers of U.S. soldiers going there, um, it was never looked at as, “Here’s a war. Let’s put the full force of the military behind it.” But it was rather a trickle of U.S. soldiers going, um, for an extended period of time, not getting the kind of support that that they needed to—to do it right. And—and I was proud—proud of—of the military for the way they handled the first Iraq War.
Hanke
Now with, um, these most recent wars, they’ve been going on for quite a while.
Blank
Yeah, the—the face of war has really changed. Starting with Vietnam, you didn’t know who your enemy was and—and same today with terrorism. But, because terrorism directly threatens the United States and all of us who live here, um, it has to be addressed. You know, I—I don’t see other options than to continue to be involved in in what we’re doing.
Hanke
And then, um—I think you’ve answered almost everything. Um, so, is there anything else you’d like to talk about?
Blank
Um, I—I think just my—my delight at how things have changed with the military. Um, when we—we saw, um—we hosted the film Red Tails in our office. The Tuskegee Airmen, and—and it was during [National] Veterans [Awareness] Week. Um, it was really amazing to see the pioneers for, um, bringing equality into the military, which, in my era, then continued with women coming into the military.
And then I think the second major thing that I’m really pleased to see is that not only has the military, um, really come to a point where they honor diversity and recruit for diversity, but I think they—they also now are being valued more. All—all veterans of every war are being so much more highly valued than was ever the case, from my perspective. And that brings me great joy to—to just know, even after having waited four decades to—to see that, finally, you know, people are supportive. The—the general public is supportive of what the military is doing and—and honoring those past veterans as well.
Hanke
We’re good? Time is good? Okay. Alright. Well, that concludes the interview, and I would like to personally thank you for both your time and your service.
Blank
You’re welcome.
Hanke
Thank you very much.
Blank
Thank you.
[1] Munich Massacre.
[2] The coalition also included Iraq, Jordan, Algeria, Morocco, and Tunisia, as well as Cuba.
[3] Yom Kippur.
[4] Correction: Muslim holiday.
[5] Treaty of Friendship, Co-operation, and Mutual Assistance.
[6] Kehlsteinhaus.
[7] National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP).
[8] 1961.
[9] An Uncaged Eagle: True Freedom.
[10] There is only one Operation Desert Storm.
[11] Operation Iraqi Freedom.
[12] Republic of Vietnam.