1
100
3
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https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka/files/original/9758a30bbef0211d459a0125540b3451.pdf
c60e6d25aaa04eb52789bf35b14b4d1f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
Lone Sailor Navy Memorial History Project Collection
Alternative Title
Lone Sailor Collection
Subject
Veterans--Florida
Orlando (Fla.)
United States. Navy
Navy
Sailors--United States
Description
Collection of digital images and oral histories related to the former Recruit Training Center Orlando (RTC Orlando) for the United States Navy. The training center transformed raw recruits into highly effective sailors. This process took place over an intensive eight-week training period, commonly referred to as "boot camp." RTC Orlando occupied roughly one half of the former Naval Training Center Orlando (NTC Orlando), which was located at present day Baldwin Park, Orlando, Florida. Between 1968 and 1994, over 650,000 men and women graduated from RTC Orlando.
Contributor
<a href="http://www.lonesailorfl.com/" target="_blank">Lone Sailor Navy Memorial History Project</a>
<a href="http://digitalcollections.net.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>
Is Part Of
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/24" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project Collection</a>, RICHES of Central Florida.
Language
eng
Type
Collection
Coverage
Naval Training Center, Orlando, Florida
Contributing Project
<a href="http://www.lonesailorfl.com/" target="_blank">Lone Sailor Navy Memorial History Project</a>
<a href="http://digitalcollections.net.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>
Curator
Cepero, Laura
Digital Collection
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a>
External Reference
"<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">About the Project</a>." UCF Community Veterans History Project, RICHES of Central Florida, University of Central Florida. http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/.
"<a href="http://cfnavyleague.org/lone-sailor/" target="_blank">The History</a>." Lone Sailor Navy Memorial History Project. http://cfnavyleague.org/lone-sailor/
"<a href="http://rtcorlando.homestead.com/" target="_blank">The History</a>." RTC Orlando. http://rtcorlando.homestead.com/.
<a href="http://www.lonesailorfl.com/" target="_blank"><em>A Guide to Historic Orlando</em></a>. Charleston, SC: History Press, 2006.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
Oral History of Richard Tobias Sloane
Alternative Title
Oral History, Sloane
Subject
Veterans--Florida
Navy
Orlando (Fla.)
Vietnam War, 1961-1975
Description
An oral history interview of Richard Tobias Sloane (b. 1934), who served in the U.S. Navy from 1964 to 1969, during the Vietnam War. Sloane was born in Queens, New York City, New York, on March 4, 1934. In August of 1964, he was commissioned into the Navy. Sloane served in Vietnam from September of 1967 to September of 1968. He also served on the USS <em>Rockbridge</em>, USS <em>Santa Barbara</em> in River Section 35, the USS <em>Garcia</em>, the USS <em>Wisconsin</em>, and the USS <em>Blue Jacket</em>. Sloane achieved the rank of Captain and earned a Purple Heart, Bronze Star with V Device, Legion of Merit, Combat Action Award, and Navy E Ribbon.<br /><br />This oral history interview was conducted by Carli Van Zandt on March 5, 2014. Interview topics include Sloane's background, joining the Navy, the USS <em>Rockbridge</em>, Officer Candidate School (OCS), the Vietnam War, Naval Training Center (NTC) Orlando, the Grinder, the USS <em>Blue Jacket</em>, airbases in Central Florida, the simulation industry, and the Lone Sailor Memorial Project.
Table Of Contents
0:00:00 Introduction<br />0:02:52 Background<br />0:01:58 Enlistment and USS <em>Rockbridge</em><br />0:05:44 Officer Candidate School<br />0:08:20 Graduation<br />0:09:53 Repair Division Officer<br />0:11:22 Vietnam War<br />0:18:09 Other assignments<br />0:21:52 Wife and children<br />0:24:18 Naval Training Center Orlando<br />0:27:11 Daily life and training at NTC Orlando<br />0:32:31 Advanced training at NTC Orlando<br />0:33:51 Central Florida airbases<br />0:35:39 Simulation industry<br />0:37:01 Hardest aspect, proudest moment, and memories from NTC Orlando<br />0:42:51 Leaving the Navy and keeping in touch with friends<br />0:45:22 Lessons learned, the lasting legacy of NTC Orlando, and the Lone Sailor Memorial Project
Abstract
Oral history interview of Richard Tobias Sloane. Interview conducted by Carli Van Zandt at the Education Building, Room 123, of the University of Central Florida in Orlando, Florida, on March 5, 2014.
Type
Moving Image
Source
<a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/289/rec/1" target="_blank">Sloane, Richard T.</a>. Interviewed by Carli Van Zandt, March 5, 2014. Audio/video record available. Item DP0014912, UCF Community Veterans History Project, Special Collections and University Archives, University of Central Florida Libraries, Orlando, Florida.
Requires
<a href="http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/" target="_blank">Adobe Flash Player</a>
<a href="http://java.com/en/download/index.jsp" target="_blank">Java</a>
<a href="https://get.adobe.com/reader/" target="_blank">Adobe Acrobat Reader</a>
Is Part Of
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, Orlando, Florida.
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/109" target="_blank">Lone Sailor Navy Memorial History Project Collection</a>, UCF Community Veterans History Project Collection, RICHES of Central Florida.
Has Format
22-page digital transcript of original 50-minute and 17-second oral history: <a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/289/rec/1" target="_blank">Sloane, Richard T.</a>. Interviewed by Carli Van Zandt, March 5, 2014. Audio/video record available. Item DP0014912, UCF Community Veterans History Project, Special Collections and University Archives, University of Central Florida Libraries, Orlando, Florida.
Conforms To
Standards established by the <a href="http://www.loc.gov/vets/" target="_blank">Veterans History Projects</a>, Library of Congress.
Coverage
Queens, New York City, New York
Officer Candidate School, Newport, Rhode Island
Mekong Delta, Vietnam
Naval Training Center Orlando, Orlando, Florida
Creator
Sloane, Richard Tobias
Van Zandt, Carli
Publisher
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>
Date Created
2014-03-05
Date Issued
2014-09
Date Copyrighted
2014-03-05
Format
application/website
application/pdf
Extent
432 MB
230 KB
Medium
50-minute and 17-second DVD aduio/video recording
22-page digital transcript
Language
eng
Mediator
History Teacher
Civics/Government Teacher
Geography Teacher
Provenance
Originally created by Carli Van Zandt and Richard Tobias Sloane.
Rights Holder
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>
Accrual Method
Item Creation
Contributing Project
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/veterans/" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>
Curator
Cepero, Laura
Digital Collection
<a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/landingpage/collection/VET" target="_blank">UCF Community Veterans History Project</a>, UCF Digital Collections, University of Central Florida
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a>
External Reference
"<a href="http://cfnavyleague.org/lone-sailor/" target="_blank">The History</a>." Lone Sailor Navy Memorial History Project. http://cfnavyleague.org/lone-sailor/
"<a href="http://rtcorlando.homestead.com/" target="_blank">The History</a>." RTC Orlando. http://rtcorlando.homestead.com/.
<a href="http://www.lonesailorfl.com/" target="_blank"><em>A Guide to Historic Orlando</em></a>. Charleston, SC: History Press, 2006.
Click to View (Movie, Podcast, or Website)
<a href="http://digital.library.ucf.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/VET/id/289/rec/1" target="_blank">Sloane, Richard T.</a>
Transcript
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Alright. Well, thank you for coming today. I’m so glad that you made it.</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>My pleasure.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Today is March 5<sup>th</sup>[, 2014] and I’m interviewing Mr. Richard Tobias Sloane, and he served in the United States Navy. Uh, we are doing this history project for the Lone Sailor Memorial [Project]. My name is [Carolyn] Carli Van Zandt, uh, and my cameraperson is Fernando Maldonado. We are interviewing Mr. Sloane as part of, uh, the Community Veteran History Project and Loan Sailor Memorial Project. Uh, recording here today, in the Education Building, Room 123—the conference room—in Orlando, Florida. Mr. Sloane, will you please begin by telling us a little bit about, uh, what branch of service you were in and your rank, uh, which you retired at?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>I was in the United States Navy. I retired as a Captain in [20]06 in the United States Navy. Started my service in 1964 at the Officer Candidate School in Newport, Rhode Island.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Okay. Thank you. Uh, I’m going to get a little background information here. Can you tell us when you were born? Where you was born?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>I was born on March the 4<sup>th</sup>, 1943. Yesterday was my birthday, so this is very appropriate. I was born in, uh, the Borough of Queens, New York City, in the State of New York.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Alright. What did your parents do for a living?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>My father was a, uh—a wholesale merchant in dry goods in New York, on the lower eastside of Manhattan. My mother was a homemaker, and later in her life, she was in retail, uh, store sales in New York—in Long Island, actually.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Um, do you have brothers, sisters?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>I have two older brothers. Uh, my oldest brother was retired Navy Captain also. He attended the United States Naval Academy—Class of 1957, and, uh, the middle brother, um, attended Harvard University, and Harvard, uh, Business School.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Alright. Uh, would you tell me a little about how, uh, your family life may have impacted your decision to, uh, enter the Navy?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, there was no doubt in my mind that my oldest brother, who’s about seven years, uh, my senior, if you will, uh, attended the Naval Academy when I was young, uh, junior high school, uh, person, and watching him go through that academy for four years and then his, uh—the beginning of his military service definitely had an impact my decision to join the Navy. When I completed my studies at Boston University—and in 1964, the—the draft was still in effect—and the choices were to continue my education, at the time, or to be drafted, or to sign up for the service, uh, of my choice, and at the time, I picked that choice to be in the United States Navy. I didn’t realize, at the time, it would be a career choice, uh, but I enjoyed my early years in the service, such that I decided to stick around.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Okay. So tell me more about, um, what impacted your decision to stick around.</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, I had a great first assignment. I came out of college at about 22 years old, uh—maybe even younger, at the time, and, uh, I was assigned to a ship called the USS <em>Rockbridge</em>—hull number APA-228, and that was a, uh—an amphibious troupe transport from the World War II era. Uh, the mission of the ship was to embark Marines—about 800 Marines—and associated cargo, and land on the shore in amphibious landings, and, uh, the, uh, manning of that ship—the Ward Room—if you will, the “Officer Car”—was made up with a lot of, uh, old timers, uh—warrants, mustangs as department heads. People who had been former enlisted[?], came up in the ranks, and they were sort of like—I don’t want to classify them as grandfatherly types—but they were very, uh, mature in there service, and, uh, the Commanding Officers of the ship when I was there, under which I had three Commanding Officers, were also senior Navy Captains who were on their way to major command and, uh, come[sic] out of aviation, and were going to head to larger ships, if you will. So again, they were very self-confident individuals, very accomplished people, and the younger officers, like myself, were all fresh, wet-behind-the-ears college kids, and so it was a very, very, um, engaging environment, um, a very learning environment, while, obviously, there’s a lot of pressure you to anything you do in that Navy environment.</p>
<p>It was such that you—you felt that you was learning, you felt like you were being mentored, uh, and I came away from that tour, uh, very, very, uh, personally fulfilled and—and feeling good about what I was doing. The sense of responsibility, that you got, which has always been, uh, something the Navy has played on for young beginners—that we’re going to give you, uh, tremendous responsibility that your peers, who were out working at Macy’s or selling insurance aren’t going to experience for a long, long time, and I found that to be true, because, uh, they give you things to do, and say, “Here’s a job. Go do it.” And they had enough faith in you to let you do it—to watch you close enough, so they wouldn’t let you mess up too bad. So it was a very, very good experience, as I look back on it over the years. I think that was principally what made me feel comfortable about staying in the Navy.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>You mentioned that you got this, uh, officer start before you did this first duty assignment through, um, Officer Candidate School, or OCS?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Correct.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Could you tell me a little bit about, um, what that experience is like?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, talk about the shock of your life. You come out of a university, a—very, uh, loving home, uh, environment, as I grew up. Um, so you leave the university. Again, you’ve had a sense of what service life might be like, because of my brother’s experience, but obviously, you really don’t know exactly what you’re getting into, and I remember, at the time, there was only a ferry that crossed from the main land over to Newport, [inaudible] Island, unless you wanted to go all the way up and around, by Fall River[, Massachusetts] and Providence[, Rhode Island]. Today, they have a bridge, but I remember on that ferry, as I reported for duty to go to OCS, and looking out over the water and said, what <em>have I done? </em>[<em>laughs</em>]. That sort of thing, because I didn’t know what I was headed for, but it was also a very, uh, broadening and lightening experience, because most of my childhood and my college experience, for the most part, was very, um—I forget what the right word is—but very, uh contained.</p>
<p>Uh, it wasn’t broadening. It was broadening educationally and, again, growing up in New York, you have a broadened sense of what life could be like, but I had never, uh, been in an environment with people from the South, people from the West, people from all sorts of cultures, uh—that sort of thing, and now you’re thrown into a barracks environment, uh, which is not quite the same as a college dormitory or fraternity house. Um, you’re—you’re being asked to do things in a very regimented way, uh, being held very, very responsible and accountable for the most minute, uh, daily life, uh, activities, and so while it wasn’t a shock, uh, it was certainly different. and it is a crash course, so your—things that, uh, people in NROTC [Naval Reserve Officers Training Corps] programs or Academy programs are getting years and years of time to, uh, uh acculture[sic] to and learn. You’re getting a crash course. It’s not that—it wasn’t that challenging or difficult, but you certainly had pay attention, and again, aside from the academics, the military side, um—it was just an enlightening experience. Mostly, in—in the exposure to people of different cultures, uh, uh, than ever before.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Graduation day.</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Wow. You know, the funny thing was, uh, I can’t remember exactly—the whole program was about four months, and, uh, at about maybe three weeks before you graduate, uh, you get your orders, and the way you get your orders is, uh, you’re in a company of 30 men—maybe your class had a couple hundred in it, but, um—so you’re in a company of 30 men, and you get a—a message, if you will, to report to the barracks chief or the company chief at the company headquarters, and he’s going to tell you where you’re going, and I’ll never forget, he—he said—he said “Sloane, you’re going to the USS <em>Rockbridge</em>, APA228.” and I said, “Chief, what’s that?” [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p>I had no idea, because with all that indoctrination, I don’t think we ever got down into the grass as to ship types, you know? it was mostly here’s how you, uh, get from point A to point B, here’s how you do this, a lot of PT [physical training], uh, this, that, and the other thing, a lot of naval history. Uh, but I—I remember to this day, he told me where I was going, I had no idea what kind of ship it was or anything of that nature. So, uh, that was a little before graduation, but graduation day, you’re filled with pride, you have your ensign stripe[?], uh, and your off on a real, real adventure, you know? You’re glad to be leaving that environment, but you’re full of apprehension, because now, you’re going to be really entering the workforce, sort of to speak.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br />‘</strong>Kay. So you’re trained as a—a new ensign. What was your actual job as a new ensign?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, my first job, again, was in the engineering department, and I was the [Repair] Division Officer for the repair division. The Division Officer—you’re in charge of a group of enlisted men and—with a specific function—and their job was metalsmith and woodworking, if you will, on this ship. So, um, they were doing all that type of work. It was a small group. Uh, I was sort of fortunate and respected, instead of being put immediately in charge of a large division, which might’ve been at least 30 men or 40 men. It was small, compact.</p>
<p>Again, a lot of good leadership, you know? It’s always the Chief Petty Officer in the Navy who really knows what’s going on and runs the Navy. and especially when you’re brand new, I mean, you—even with what little book-learning you got, you have not a great idea on the technical aspects of what the people are doing, you’re worried about all the different aspects of being able to stand the watch, drive a ship, um, do your daily duties, oversee the people who are working for you—or working with you, uh,—that sort of thing, and again, it was a lot of—I don’t want to use the word “old timers”—but Senior Chief Petty Officers, uh, who had a lot of experience and confidence in their work, um, middle-grade Petty Officers. It was a good bunch. It was the right place for me to go for a start, because I had a lot of support from below.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Okay. Um, your early assignments—it sounds like you had a lot of on-the-job training, do you think it is because it was the Vietnam [War] era?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane <br /></strong>Well, uh, if you’re talking about the first ship, absolutely, you know? I mean, uh, at the time, a lot of people were going over to Vietnam. Uh, my second tour duty was in Vietnam, and by the time I have spent about two and a half years on that ship, I had, uh, changed jobs on the ship. I was, uh, made gunnery officer on that ship, which was—gave me an opportunity to learn another aspect of, uh, ship ward responsibility and duties, and so again, when I, uh, finished up that tour in about two in a half years, uh, I was very confident. I had, uh, been promoted one grade from ensign to Lieutenant Junior grade. Very proud, and, uh, left that ship with a great deal of confidence, I think.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Great. Um, can you tell me a little about your Vietnam experience?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>I [<em>laughs</em>]…</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>As much as you can.</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, uh, absolutely. Um, Funny thing is, um: I—I mentioned earlier that I worked with these great people, you know? Uh, uh, as many warrants and LDOs [limited duty officers] who had maturity, a lot of experience, um, and how I got to Vietnam, I always thought was an interesting story. The Navy Bureau of Naval Personnel put out a newsletter about every month that they—a hard copy paper newsletter, and they went to every ship, and it—it really talked about what assignments were available to different people and different grade, what was happening in the personnel management area, um, and they came out with an article that said they were looking for Lieutenants Junior grade to be the Commanding Officers of LSTs, uh— “Landing Ship Tanks” —uh, to serve as mother ships for river patrol boats in Vietnam. So these LSTS would be at the mouths of the river, they would be the mother ship for 10 or 20 small river patrol boats, and they wanted Lieutenant JGs [Junior Grade] to be, uh, XOs. They wanted them to be XOs—Executive Officers, and I read that article, and, uh, my boss, at the time, was a Lieutenant, uh—LDO—an “old salt,” who I greatly admired, and he read that article. They were looking for Lieutenants to be Commanding Officers—Lieutenant JGs was to XOs to these LSTs, and he reads this article, and he says—he says, “Boy, I want to be a CO of a, LST.” And he said, “Rich, come be my XO.” You know, “We’ll go together.” I’ll—he’ll be the CO and I’ll be the XO of this LST.</p>
<p>Well, [<em>clears throat</em>] to go from being a Division Officer to an Executive Officer is highly unusual. Uh, but here is an opportunity, because it fit the mold, uh, of what they were looking for in Vietnam. I said, “Absolutely.” and I immediately wrote my detailer—the guy in Washington[, D.C.] who made these assignments—and—and, uh, I said, “I want to go be an XO on an LST, just like you wrote you needed, uh—uh, JGs to be XOs on LST. I want that job.” He wrote back—[<em>clears throat</em>] he said—corresponded back, “You know, you’re a little too junior,” because you’re in the JG billet for a number of years, uh—JG rank. Said, “You’re a little too junior, but we have lots of other jobs available for ya in Vietnam.” I said, “Okay.” I said, “But don’t give me a desk job. I want a job where the action is.” Next thing you know, I had a letters to a river patrol section that drove little plastic boats on the rivers of the Mekong Delta. So that’s how I got there.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Wow.</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Yeah, I know, and then [<em>laughs</em>]—and then, my boss—I don’t think he ever got the job of CO. He did—he may have gotten an LST, but I don’t know that he had one off of Vietnam. Um, I spent a year. The tour that you got was a year. It was a small outfit—maybe a hundred people, if that. Uh, Most of them were assigned to run the boats, and the others were assigned as maintenance people. Uh, there was[sic], uh, two Lieutenants and three Lieutenants Junior grade, who made the officer structure. Then you had a number of Chief Petty Officers, and a host of, UH, other enlisted personnel, who manned the boats, and we spent a year patrolling the rivers of Vietnam.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>What impact do you think this experience had on you?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, it had a tremendous impact. Um, you know, you sad[sic] in the sense that you were at war. You were certainly, uh, aware of that. Um, I think it was Winston [Leonard Spencer- ]Churchill who said something like, “There is nothing more exhilarating than being shot at and missed.”<a title="">[1]</a> Uh, and I had that experience. Um, uh, we’ve lost a number of people from our section to combat, while I was there, and I respect—I consider myself fortunate that I—that I, uh, um, didn’t have a harrowing[?] experience that—that cost me more than it did, so to speak. Um, uh, it was interesting to be in country, in—in that environment—to meet people of Vietnam, um, in many different, uh, ways, if you will. Um, and that’s about it.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Do you think, um, your time through these, uh—the last two assignments that you just described help shape your leadership style?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Uh, yeah, I think to some degree. That’s hard to say, um, how you developed, what—what it was that caused you to develop your leadership. I think more, uh—I don’t know. I only speak for myself, but I think more it was my upbringing than anything else. There’s all sorts of leaders—different people. Some lead in fear, some lead in—in different manners, and I just think it was the way that I was brought up that really, uh, set the foundation for my leadership style. I think a lot of your style is not so much developed in those early years, but further as you go along, you get more responsibility. Certainly there was a lot of responsibility from day one at different levels, and—and very significant responsibility, but my impression was: the further along you got, the more leadership experience you had. You had the opportunity to observe other leaders, you know? The—the common phrase, as well, eh, you know; “I’m not going to do it like he did it when I grow up.” That sort of thing. So, uh, how you developed it is—is a, in my opinion—for me, at least, is a combination of a lot of things: my personal upbringing, the experiences that I had as you climb that ladder can really shape.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Thank you. What other, um, duty assignments did you take after your tour in Vietnam and prior to coming to NTC [Naval Training Center] Orlando?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Right. I came back from Vietnam and I was, uh, selected to go what then called the “Navy Destroyers School,”<a title="">[2]</a> which was really a course to prepare you to be a department head on a destroyer-type, um, ship. Um, that was a six-month course in Newport, Rhode Island. I met my wife there, during that time period. I courted her, eh, in—in those years—that time frame. Um, Went to USS <em>Garcia</em> DE-1040. Home-ported out of Newport, Rhode Island, as the Weapons [Systems] Officer.</p>
<p>Um, from there, uh, I have to think back. I went to the USS—oh, excuse me. From there, I went to, uh, instructor duty at what was then the beginning of the Navy Surface Warfare Officers School and served as an instructor to ensigns, who were coming from their commissioning source before they were going to surface ships, and, uh, that was about three-year tour in Newport, and then I went to USS <em>Milwaukee</em> AOR-2—I think it was. Homeport in Norfolk, Virginia, a multiproduct ship, uh, stationed out of Norfolk, Virginia. Great tour of duty, great, uh, shipmates there. Again, uh, a tremendous learning experience as a department head for the deck department. Uh, A lot of responsibility, a lot of work there. From <em>Milwaukee</em>, we went to shore duty in Millington, Tennessee—a little bit north of Memphis, where the Navy had its, uh, training headquarters, and, uh, I served on, uh, the staff of, uh, Naval Education and Training [Command] —technical training—in Memphis—Millington.</p>
<p>Uh, from there, after a short one year tour, um, I went to Hawaii, uh, to be, uh, Executive Officer on the USS <em>Hassayampa</em>, an oiler in, uh, Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. Another great tour. Uh, I think the, uh, thing that made my career so gratifying was the great shipmates and the leaders that I worked with over the years on these ships. From Hawaii, came back to Norfolk and served on the staff of, uh, Commander Carrier Group 8. Went to sea on aircraft carriers as a Surface Warfare Advisor, if you will—surface op[eration]s officer. Completed that tour, working for a couple of flag officers, and from there, let’s see. Where’d we go? [U.S.] Naval War College, I believe. Tour[?] in Newport, Rhode Island, at the Naval War College. A very int—interesting time, and then went to, um, command the USS <em>Santa Barbara</em>, uh, AE-28, out of Charleston, South Carolina. Was on board there for about two in half years, in command of the <em>Santa Barbara</em>. Went from there to, uh, the Executive Officer of Service Schools[sic] Command. [Naval Station] Great Lakes—very large training activity, uh, up in Great Lakes, Illinois, just north of Chicago[, Illinois], and from there, I came to Orlando, Florida, in command of the Service School Command Activity here at the Naval Training Center Orlando. So it was all in route, but we got there.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>That’s quite a list</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Yeah, I’ll say.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Alright. This one’s about your wife. You ready for this one?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>I’m sorry? Sure.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>This one’s about your wife. They say in the military, you great two for one. How did you do with the family, the military, and the traveling? How did she deal[?] with that?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, we were very fortunate. I’ve always felt that way. Um, my wife was ready, willing, and able for the adventure. She was a Navy nurse actually, when I met her when she was in college, and she was, uh, attending on a—a little bit of a scholarship at the end of her college tour, where, in exchange for tuition assistance, she went in the Navy as a Navy nurse, and in those days, if you became pregnant, they mustered you out, and so she was in for a little over a year in an half, until she became pregnant without first child, and had to muster out. So she had a little taste of the Navy, besides from the fact of growing up—not going up—but going to school in Newport, Rhode Island, as she did, which is where I met her, uh, she was exposed to all the Navy activity that went on in Newport, Rhode Island, at the time.</p>
<p>Um, so we enjoyed the Navy. Nobody enjoys leaving your family for six months at a time and Nowadays, sailors are leaving there families for even longer, but, uh, typical six-month deployment then was not something you looked forward to from a family standpoint-of-view, but she—she understood that and, uh, was a great Navy wife. You know, they say, uh, a Navy wife’s the toughest job in the Navy, and I believe it 110 percent, and our children, uh, my wife, and I always—we moved around a lot, you know? And describing where I went, it was here, there. We came back a couple times, but it was never back to back tours in the same town, and unlike some, who said, “Oh, I don’t want to leave Norfolk,” or “I gotta stay in San Diego[, California].” We were always up for that adventure, and after a year or two went by, the kids were always saying, “Where are we going next?” That sort of thing. Got a little tougher when they got to the junior high/high school age, but up ‘til then, they were always ready, willing, and able to—“Let’s find a new place to go.” And, uh, that was pretty good. I’d always come home, after having spoken with the detailer, getting the word on where we were going. Uh, I’d call home and say, “Honey, Are you sitting down?” And she knew that was the signal [<em>laughs</em>] that we were going somewhere. Yep.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Good. Um, well, what did you know about the region of Orlando and the military here?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>I’m sorry.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>What did you know about the region of Orlando?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, I didn’t know anything about it expect that they had a mirror of activity of Great Lakes on a smaller scale. Uh, Navy training activity, smaller in numbers, but the mission was basically the same, and I lobbied to get that job of Commanding Officer. I say lobbied. You know, I—you talked to your detailer and say “Hey. I hear there’s a job opening in Orlando. Uh, it seems to fit. I’m training in education subspecialist. I’ve done the tour as Executive Officer here. Um, and I hear the Commanding Officer tour for the Service School Command is open there.” I was fortunate to get that assignment, and again, uh, the only, uh—the biggest impression was if the kids were a little, uh, anxious in moving in that point in time, because they were in junior high [school] and getting little more into socializing. Uh, When I told them that we’d probably have a pool at the house, that settled the deal [<em>laughs</em>]. “Let’s go.” They were ready to pack and move—move down here. So I didn’t know much about it. That was it. Um, that was it.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>How long were you here at NTC Orlando?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, we got here in 1988, and I retired from that job in 1991. So…</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>That was the tour.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Um, what were your overall impressions of the recruits and their training, during that time down [inaudible] your time at the base?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Oh, I thought it was terrific. You know, I was—really, there were three activities. You had the Recruit Training Center, You had the Nuclear Power School, and you had Service Schools Command. So, uh, while we did have some interaction in between all those activities, um, the sailors that—that I was seeing, uh, who were coming, from the most part, out of boot camp—uh, We did have some coming to advanced schools, uh, from the fleet, but the majority of them are coming right out of boot camp—uh, just top quality, you know?</p>
<p>People have said that the quality of our servicemen and women today are—is better than ever, and they have said it for years and years, and I firmly believe it. A lot of people who say, “Ah, it’s not like the old Navy,” and they talk about things like uniforms and discipline, which is always important, but the, uh, quality, the intellect, uh, the upbringing—if you will—uh, of the people that[sic] are coming into the service, I thought was terrific, and I saw that throughout my career. You know, you’re in that moving stream, so you don’t always see the difference, but when you think about it, and you stop and you think, and you say, <em>Look at the quality of the Electronic Technicians School, who are going through Torpedoman [Mate] School</em>—some of these highly technical courses—You have to really, you know, learn some significant stuff or hone their skills. Um, we had top-quality people.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Alright. Um, Daily life for your, uh, Navy recruits and your Navy sailors, that[sic] are there training for the schools—what was it like?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, again, the people that[sic] were in my school, for the most part, were brand new, coming from out of 8-12 weeks of Recruit Training Center. So you still had to be aware of their conduct more off the base than on the base. Remember, these are young people who been cooped up at recruit training, where they didn’t get any liberty for months on end, if you will. Now, they’ve been cut loose, so to speak. Uh, yes[?], you go to class, but you had your weekends off, sort of thing.</p>
<p>I think, on the whole, uh, and really across the board, we had very few discipline problems—things of that nature. Again, in a—in an organization that size, deal with that demographic, there will be individuals who really weren’t suited for the service, or who had a momentary lapse in judgment, shall we say, and so that’s typical in any large organization. I don’t think it—it’s not so visible in civilian—civilian life, you know? If some fella who’s working on the line in General Motors [Company] goes out and gets arrested for DUI [Driving Under the Influence], or something like that, General Motors doesn’t really hold him to task. Well, the military’s a little different on how it, uh, wants its people to represent the organization.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Okay. Uh,couple of, uh, questions here, uh, for those who—who don’t know. Could you explain to us what the Grinder was?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>What the what?</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>The Grinder was.</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Oh, the Grinder [<em>laughs</em>]. Well, I got very familiar with the Grinder at OCS, because the Grinder was where you—in OCS, you walked off punishment. I mean, it was the parade ground, and it was usually a paved a, uh—asphalt, uh, parade ground, uh, on which you’d have formal parades, but OCS—if you—if you didn’t make your bed right, or there was a dust bunny loose, or if your shoes weren’t shined, uh, when the other folks were going on liberty on Saturday, you were out there marching for two or three hours. Uh, And again, at—at boot camp, the Grinder was, again, the place where graduation was held, but again, uh, conduct infractions were marched off often times.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Alright, and, um, the purpose of the USS <em>Blue Jacket</em>?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Yeah, the <em>Blue Jacket</em> was, uh, a wooden replica, if you will, of a ship—a destroyer-type ship, and it had—internally, it had classrooms. Externally, it had fittings that you would find on, uh, a real ship. a life boat, or a whale boat, if you will, that could be lowered, raised, chalks, and bits, and lines, anchor chain, and halyards, and all the things that a sailor in—in the field of seamanship might encounter on a real ship, and so, uh, they can go on board that—that trainer, um, uh, and, uh, do the things that they would be asked to do out in the fleet, and they could also hold classes there. Uh, it was a—a fixture, if you will. A lot of people were sad to see it go.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Okay. What kind of social life existed among the recruits on the base through the MWR—Morale, Welfare, and Recreation?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Right. Uh, the interesting fact is: when I retired from the Navy in 1991, uh, the first position I took as a civilian was director of the USO [United Service Organization], here in Central Florida, Which, in a sense, was responsible a little bit for the MWR. I mean, the base had its own MWR organization, which was really the root of it. Uh, when I was on active duty, I personally took advantage of it. They had great gym, and weights, and facilities, and pool—all those sorts of things that you would want on the base. They had opportunities for sailors to buy tickets to local events and theme parks—uh, the typical Morale, Welfare and Rec, uh, support system. The USO was there also, primarily to support, uh, the families that came to see the recruits graduate every week at—at, uh, the Naval Training Center, but, uh, the MWR ran some great programs. They always were there. I remember the people who were—for the most part, many were retired military who were running the programs. They had a golf course, which was, uh, one of the premiere, I think, spots in town, to play golf for the retired Navy community and active duty when they were on liberty. There was also a smaller course down by, uh—by the [McCoy] Air Force Base, or was then a civilian airport. They had a small place down there. They had camping gear you could check out. Um, Just, really great support. I think that was an asset for this—this community—the Navy community.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Okay. Um, did they have a local base newspaper?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>They did have a local base newspaper, and for the life of me, I’d have to think. I’d have to wake up at 3 in the morning to remember the name of it. I think it was <em>The Navigator</em> or something like that, and the fella named Jim Allen ran it, when I was there. He was sort of the—the editor. Uh, a great asset. I think it came out once a week, but Again, it covered the news, and all the good news, and, uh, that sort of thing. I—I got very familiar with the paper. I always wanted to make sure they—that if my activity had something to promote, it was in there, and it—they did a great job. It was a great asset.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br />‘</strong>Kay. After basic training, what other types of schools did you guys offer here at NTC?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Right. Well, Service School Command had four, uh, ratings, if you will—trade—Trade skills that they trained to. Uh, one was electronics technician, one was torpedoman, uh, one was quartermaster, and the other was signalman. So again we did that, and Nuclear Power School—they had two different, uh, schools, if you will: Nuclear Power A School, and I can’t for the life of me recall what the other division was called, but it was sort of like a lower division and an upper division, and their training, um—it went up to a lot of the skills and requirements of operating nuclear power plants. Uh, they had a lot of senior officers, who would go into command of nuclear powered ships, who went through that program. Very, very, uh, effective training program.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Alright, alright[?]. Um, did you have any shore maintenance that was done here? Did anything get sent back to have work done here locally for work done…</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>You know…</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>From the ships?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>I don’t believe that we did. I think, um, most of any maintenance that went on was supporting, uh, what was happening at the base, uh—that sort of thing, but it wasn’t like equipment was coming back from the fleet</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Yeah[?].</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>For maintenance.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zand<br /></strong>Mmhmm.</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Because that was all done at the fleet site’s shore locations, if you will.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>What about airbases? Uh, ‘cause we have airbases here. Were we doing any work for the airbase maintenance?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>No, again, the Navy, um—a lot of that air training was done in Memphis, where a lot of the air raidings were done in Millington, if you will.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Mmhmm.</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Again, um, if you’re talking about, like, [Naval Air Station] Jacksonville, which had a Naval Air Station up there and added their own—their facilities up there. So we really weren’t training aviation raidings.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>So our airbases here had been pretty much downgraded?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Um…</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>The old airbases?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, Naval Air Station Sanford became the Orlando-Sanford…</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>[inaudible]?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Uh, International, uh, Airport. Um, uh, the Orlando International Airport was McCoy Air Force Base. Um, and, um, it’s always, uh, enjoyable when I drive down there and have a moment to scoot in by where the old [Boeing] B-52 [Stratofortress] is parked.<a title="">[3]</a> I think so many people in this community don’t know it’s there, haven’t had the opportunity to go down there where you can walk right up to it and kick the tires on this gigantic airplane. Up in, uh, Orlando-Sanford—which I’m sure the locals don’t know about—uh, there was a small civilian community, uh, that, uh decided to refurbish a [North American RA-5C] Vigilante, an A-5 aircraft, which is on display, uh, at the entrance to the airport up there. My wife and I had occasion to work with that committee and help, uh, put it in place, and, uh, that’s—that’s a sight, I’ll tell ya, and they’re working on refurbishing other aircraft for display up there.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Great[?].</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Yeah.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Now, I know we had Tactical Air Command and Army Air Force[s] Training Command here, at one time. Did you have an occasion to work on any joint exercises with them?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>No, that was way before my time.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Okay.</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>That was when they wore the leather helmets.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>They have—the do still have the simulator training and stuff that goes on here with the [U.S.] Joint Forces [Command]? Did you…</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, the, uh…</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Participate in any of that?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>The Navy—the, um, Naval Air Warfare Training Center [Systems Division]…<a title="">[4]</a></p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Mmhmm.</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Here in Orlando, is part of the Research Park activity, the military’s presence, uh, joint services are there, mostly contracting for, uh, training and simulation work. That’s why all of these defense contractors have set up shop here in Orlando, so that they can have close act[sic]—access to those folks, but there’s a lot of activity taking on—taking in that area, right here in Orlando. Very important to the community.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Right. I know the, uh, base has tied to developing technology and simulations. Were you involved in any of the future simulation exercises that were currently…</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>No, really…</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Conducted by the military?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>That all used to be located at the Naval Training Center, and, of course, as it expanded, uh, I remember—I can’t tell you the exact year, but it was when I was in service here that they built the [Luis] De Florez Center, here in the Research Park, and moved that operation out there, and grew it, and had just a tremendous expansion of not only that joint service activity out there, but again , the growth in the Research Park of defense contractors who have come here to Orlando, but I did not work directly with the training and simulation activities here.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Okay. Thank you. Um, what’s the hardest thing you remember doing while you were, um, a Commander at the NTC?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Pushups.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Pushups? [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>] Yeah, well, you, um—I think “hardest” is a tough word. When you say “hardest,” uh, you know, I—I’ll change it over to what was the most, uh, difficult, uh, and that was the discipline. Um, Having to, uh, work with young people, who, again, had a lapse in—in judgment and came before you, because of some infraction—some minor, some not so minor, but it was always, I say, a little disappointment—maybe a little heartfelt, because it—in the back, you’ll say to yourself, uh, <em>This youngster can do better. </em>You’ve tried to provide them and your team to[?] guidance. Everybody makes a mistake, once in a while, and—and while there were those who, you know, were more than willing to atone for their sins, so to speak, and get back on track. Eh, there was the rare exception who was not the right person for the service and you had to ask them to leave, and, uh, I think—so when you say what was the “hardest,” it was that. You felt like to some degree, you failed. Now, some degree you—you can’t change some people—that sort of thing. So that was probably the most difficult, really.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Alright. From the most difficult, when did you feel the most proud at NTC?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, I think, um, every time you had a graduation, you know? Uh, every time you set sailor from your school out to the fleet, and you felt that they were—your team had prepared them, uh, very well to do the job, and that they would go out, and the people in fleet were going to look back and say, “Now, that sailor came from NTC Orlando. He or she was trained right.”</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Okay. Um, is there a particular story, um, from your time at the NTC that you’ll never forget?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Oh, there’s a million of them. A million of them. We used to—we had a lot of fun. I mean, if you don’t have fun—that’s not to say that every day was a good day, uh, but if you don’t come away, uh, with a balance sheet that says you had more fun than not, you’re probably either not doing it right or don’t belong there and, uh,every year, uh, the, uh, Navy-Marine Corps Relief Society would hold a fund drive. Navy-Marine Corps Relief Society is just what it sounds. It’s a[sic] organization—civilian organization—that, uh, provides release services for men and women in the Navy and the Marines who have had hardship. Whether it’s a house fire, a death in the family, some serious illness, they—they’re there to support with finances and services, if[?] necessary.</p>
<p>So every year they had a fund drive Throughout the Navy, and our little piece at the Navy Training Center broke down the individual commands, and what we did, for the time that I was there, we had a little carnival, or a cookout, or whatever every year in support of that, and my wife and I would put on a skit every year. So we did about three skits, during the time I was there, and [<em>laughs</em>]—and, uh, let’s see if I can remember them in the right order. One year, we did, uh a sk—it wasn’t a skit, but it was a song called “Lydia and the Tattooed Lady,” which [Julius] “Groucho” [Henry] Marx made famous, and I dressed up as Lydia the Tattooed Lady. My wife dressed up as Groucho Marx. The Navy band came and played the music.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>And out we went and did it for the crowd, and then one year, we did, uh, from, uh, <em>South Pacific</em>, uh—uh, the number “Honey Bun,” where—if you’re not familiar with it—this, um, senior sailor gets dressed up in a grass skirt and, um—and, um, uh, the Navy nurse dresses up as a sailor and sings about, uh, his girlfriend—his honey bun. So I dressed up in the grass skirt, and my wife dressed up in the sailor suit, and sang the song, and the Navy band played along, and then the last year we did, uh, “Get Me to the Church on Time” from <em>My Fair Lady</em>. So there I was in—in bridal regalia and she was, uh, dressed up as a, uh, groom going to the church, and we had great fun doing that. It made—let’s just say it made the base newspaper [<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>That sounds wonderful.</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Yeah.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Um, were there any other areas of the base that were of particular importance to you or the sailors?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, one of things, you—you know, everything was important, whether it was the commissary or what have you, but I remember Lake Baldwin, you know, which Baldwin Park is named after, if you will, and so many of the, uh, people who had the opportunity would go out there and fish on Lake Baldwin, or be at one of the clubs, whether it was the enlisted club or officer’s club, which looked out on Lake Baldwin. It was sort of, um, just the center of things, not necessarily geographically, but, uh, when you drove home, you went by it. That sort of thing. It was always there. The sort of Place a lot of people, uh, looked forward to seeing, or recreating on, what have you. The Maple Hospital overlooked Lake Baldwin. The golf course was off of Lake Baldwin. Uh, that sort of thing I remember very much.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Um, I know what you did when you left the Navy. You went to work for the USO. Do you recall the day your service ended?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>The day my service ended? Yeah. Well, you know, like most senior people in the service, they have some sort of retirement ceremony for you. Change of command is what it really was, where, um, uh—a good friend of mine, uh, Captain Harry Smith—U.S. Navy retired, still here in Central Florida, uh,—relieved me of that job, and that was a very emotional day. It may not have be the—my last day—maybe it was the last day. Uh, it was just, uh, a very emotional time for me, um, in concluding that service, and reflecting back on all the years of service, all the assignments, the family, uh that sort of thing. So that’s my reflection on my last day, if you will</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Have you kept in touch with people from the Navy?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Oh, absolutely. Um, [<em>laughs</em>] there’s one warrant officer, uh, who served with me in Vietnam. He was the maintenance officer for the river section, and he, uh, sort of, uh, made it his business to stay in touch with, uh, those of us who were still around, and so, um, an email contact with him. As I said, Captain Smith, who relieved me of the Naval Training Service School Command job, um, was a good personal friend here. Dave Arms, retired Navy Captain, who was Commanding Officer of the [U.S.] Naval Reserve Center here in Orlando for a while, uh—still here, and, uh, we stay in touch. Um, you hear from some people every once in a while. One of the most poignant things I recall, uh, is: many, many, years went by, uh, after I had left Vietnam, and as I said, we lost a couple of people in our section, and I, over the years, received just a handful of correspondence from, uh, relatives of the people we lost, um, asking about them, and I responded to those people, and that was, in a way, staying in touch.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Was that hard?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Oh, it—well, it was hard on—it wasn’t hard. Uh, I was glad to hear from them and to be able to tell them that, uh, their relative had served honorably.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Um, what values or characteristics do you believe that the Navy made, um—that instilled in you a great impression for the rest of your life?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, I think discipline, and I—I mean that in the finest sense of the word. Organization, uh, good order, wanting to see things in the right place, um, making decisions, you know—right or wrong. Somebody’s gotta make that decision. Uh, working with others towards a common goal—that sort of thing.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Your lasting legacy with the, um, NTC in Orlando and the Navy’s legacy, um, in Central Florida—what do you think, um, is the lasting legacy in Orlando?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, I think the lasting legacy [<em>sniffs</em>] is a couple of different things. One is: people, like myself, who are here and remain here, who chose to stay for many different reasons. Uh, but we have a tremendous veterans’ population here. People who served here and came back—I see a lot of that up in Sanford. You know, people—there’s a lot of, um, people who don’t, uh, know about the Naval Air Station Sanford, and, uh—and I had the opportunity to meet a lot of them during the restoration of the vigilante aircraft. Boy, they came out of the woodwork, um, for that, and so that’s one, uh—one thing. I think what we’re doing at—at, um, Baldwin Park, with the Lone Sailor Memorial [Project] is a great, great thing. Uh, that will stand forever and, uh, when generations go by, people will still know that there was a Naval Training Center activity here, hundreds and thousands of young men and women passed through here in service to their nation. Um, you can’t do more than that.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>How do you think that the former Navy personnel would like to see or reminded, um, at the memorial?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Well, I think that the Lone Sailor Memorial is a very, very appropriate, uh, recognition of what took place here over the years. I think, uh, there’s so much pride in—in veterans. I don’t care whether they did 20 years or a four-year hitch in the Navy. I have rarely spoken to an individual who served, especially in the Navy, uh, who didn’t come away saying “It was a good experience for me.” That sort of thing.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Okay. Um, when we’re looking at, uh, designing the [Blue Jacket] Park, what do you think they would like to see at the park?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Oh, nautical—Things of the nautical nature. I remember, when I [<em>laughs</em>] was, uh—had command at the Naval Training Center, and one of things, I think—my recollection of up at the Great Lakes is the—by—by virtue of the fact that it was a very, uh—I don’t want to use “old” in the wrong word—but it had been there for…</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Since 1903,<a title="">[5]</a> I think. They had accumulated a lot of maybe history there. Whether it was an anchor, or a gun, or what have you, and so as you walked around that base, if you will, a [inaudible] you saw a lot of these things And You knew you were at a military facility or a naval facility, and when I came to Orlando, one of things I asked my, uh, team to do was to bring some of those Navy artifacts to—to our activity, and I’ll never forget, uh, we brought two big—what we call “24-inch searchlights”—no longer in use in the fleet, but these, uh—If you see the movies and you see the big arc lights things searching for planes in the sky, and I, uh—I charged one of our officers. Uh, I said, uh, you know, “Get in touch with the—the old shipyards, who[sic] have this stuff in excess, and let’s see if we can’t get one.” They did. They brought it and it was mounted in front of the school. they got a, uh, uh, four-barrel—I think it was a 4-barrell—a 40-millimeter gun mount brought it down and got it there, and that was—when the base was closed, I think they transferred it, to my recollection, to the, uh, Oviedo High School and JROTC [Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps] unit, and they may still be there. I haven’t been in the back lot for a while.</p>
<p>So I think—and I remember that, uh, the torpedo—and it was a very strong World War II torpedo CO—submarine community here in Orlando, and I remember over at, eh, um—I don’t—it wasn’t near the USO, but it was somewhere over there in that vicinity, near the RTC [Recruit Training Center Orlando]. They had got these old World War II torpedoes and put them on display, and so I think, eh, you know, any of those type materials that can be brought, appropriately placed in and around Blue Jacket Park, uh, would really be a great reminder of, uh, the service that these people gave to their country.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Thank you.</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Mmhmm.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>You’ve exhausted my list. Is there anything else you’d like to share with me?</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>Have a great Navy Day.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Aw.</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>Thank you so much</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>You’re welcome.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>I appreciate your time.</p>
<p><strong>Sloane<br /></strong>My pleasure.</p>
<p><strong>Van Zandt<br /></strong>I’m ready to stop recording.</p>
<div><br /><div>
<p><a title="">[1]</a> Correction: “There is nothing more exhilarating than to be shot at with no result.”</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a title="">[2]</a> Correction: Naval Destroyers School.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a title="">[3]</a> B-52 Memorial Park.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a title="">[4]</a> Correction: Naval Air Warfare Center Training Systems Division (NAWCTSD).</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a title="">[5]</a> Correction: Naval Station Great Lakes was approved in 1904 and dedicated in 1911.</p>
</div>
</div>
A-5
advanced training
aircraft
airplanes
airports
auxiliary service
B-52
B-52 Memorial Park
Baldwin Park
basic training
Blue Jacket Park
Boeing B-52 Stratofortress
Bronze Star with V Device
BUPERS
Bureau of Naval Personnel
captains
Carli Van Zandt
Carolyn Van Zandt
Central Florida Research Park
Combat Action Award
Commander Carrier Group 8
Community Veterans History Project
conscription
CVHP
Dave Arms
deployments
destroyers
discipline
drafts
engineering
engineers
ensigns
Fernando Maldonado
Garcia
Get Me to the Church on Time
graduations
Great Lakes, Illinois
Grinder
Groucho Marx
gunnery officers
Harry Smith
historical preservation
historical restoration
Honey Bun
Jim Allen
Julius Henry Marx
Lake Baldwin
Legion of Merit
Lieutenant Junior
Lone Sailor Memorial Project
LSMP
LST
LTJG
Luis De Florez
Luis De Florez Building
Lydia and the Tattooed Lady
McCoy AFB
McCoy Air Force Base
Mekong Delta
memorials
military spouses
military training
military wife
military wives
Milwaukee
monuments
Morale, Welfare, and Recreation
MWR
My Fair Lady
NAS Sanford
Naval Air Station Sanford
Naval Air Warfare Center Training Systems Divisions
Naval Destroyers School
Naval Education and Training Command
Naval Training Center
Naval Training Center Great Lakes
Naval Training Center Orlando
Naval War College
Navy E Ribbon
Navy-Marine Corps Relief Society
NAWCTSD
NETC
Newport, Rhode Island
NMCRS
North American A-5 Vigilante
NTC Great Lakes
NTC Orlando
Nuclear Power School
nurses
OCS
Officer Candidate School
Officer Car
orlando
Orlando International Airport
Orlando-Sanford International Airport
parks
planes
preservation
Purple Heart
Queens, New York City, New York
RA-5C
RA-5C Vigilante
recruit training
Recruit Training Center
Recruit Training Center Orlando
recruits
Repair Division Officer
Research Park
retirement
Richard T. Sloane
Richard Tobias Sloane
river patrols
River Section 35
Rockbridge
RTC Orlando
Sanford
Santa Barbara
selective service
Service School Command
Service Schools Command
SERVSCOLSCOM
simulations
simulators
South Pacific
Surface Warfare Advisor
Surface Warfare Officers School
The Navigator
training
U.S. Naval War College
U.S. Navy
United Service Organization
USO
USS Blue Jacket
USS Garcia
USS Hassayampa
USS Milwaukee
USS Rockbridge
USS Santa Barbara
USS Wisconsin
veterans
Vietnam
Vietnam War
Vietnamese
volunteers
Ward Room
wars
Weapon Systems Officer
Wisconsin
-
https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka/files/original/10f90dbd143c3fd155b1f26de5d9bfce.pdf
0a0092d9e0a2fc001530ae5cb69bf606
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
Central Florida Railroad Depots Collection
Alternative Title
Central Florida Railroad Depots Collection
Subject
Railroad depots
Railroad stations--Florida
Railroads--Florida
Apopka (Fla.)
Orlando (Fla.)
Ocala (Fla.)
Port Orange (Fla.)
Lake Wales (Fla.)
Avon Park (Fla.)
Mount Dora (Fla.)
Punta Gorda (Fla.)
Sanford (Fla.)
Kissimmee (Fla.)
Oviedo (Fla.)
Language
eng
Type
Collection
Curator
Cepero, Laura
Digital Collection
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a>
Description
Collection of digital images, documents, and other records depicting the various railroad depots and railroad stations in Central Florida. Series descriptions are based on special topics, the majority of which students focused their metadata entries around.
Contributor
Bronson, Kelly
Campbell, Tyler
Clemente, Chris
Connolly, Lehman
Covington, Adrian
Gray, Mark
Lester, Connie L.
Mercado, Carlos R.
Moore, Samantha
Santos, Marina
Simons, Nicholas
Smalls, Eric
Is Part Of
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/77" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>.
Coverage
Amtrak Seaboard Coast Line Railroad Station, Orlando, Florida
Apopka Seaboard Air Line Railway Depot, Apopka, Florida
Avon Park Depot Museum, Avon Park, Florida
Avon Park Seaboard Air Line Depot, Avon Park, Florida
Avon Park Atlantic Coast Line Train Station, Avon Park, Florida
Church Street Station, Orlando, Florida
Fort Pierce Atlantic Coast Line Railroad Depot, Fort Pierce, Florida
Fort Pierce Florida East Coast Railway Company Depot, Fort Pierce, Florida
Kissimmee Railroad Station, Kissimmee, Florida
Lake Wales Atlantic Coast Line Railroad Depot, Lake Wales, Florida
Lake Wales Depot Museum, Lake Wales, Florida
Mount Dora Train Station, Mount Dora, Florida
Ocala Union Station, Ocala, Florida
Orlando Railroad Depot, Orlando, Florida
Oviedo Train Depot, Oviedo, Florida
Port Orange Train Station, Port Orange, Florida
Punta Gorda Atlantic Coast Line Railroad Depot, Punta Gorda, Florida
Sanford Atlantic Coast Line Depot, Sanford, Florida
Sanford South Florida Railroad, Sanford, Florida
St. Lucie County Regional History Center, Fort Pierce, Florida
Contributing Project
<a href="http://history.cah.ucf.edu/staff.php?id=525" target="_blank">Dr. Connie L. Lester</a>'s American Economic History Undergraduate Class, Spring 2014
External Reference
Mulligan, Michael. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/225874809" target="_blank"><em>Railroad Depots of Central Florida</em></a>. Charleston, SC: Arcadia Pub, 2008.
Turner, Gregg M. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/184906141" target="_blank"><em>A Journey into Florida Railroad History</em></a>. Gainesville: University Press of Florida, 2008.
Murdock, R. Ken. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/38291666" target="_blank"><em>Outline History of Central Florida Railroads</em></a>. Winter Garden, Fla: Central Florida Chapter, National Railway Historical Society, 1997.
"<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/items/show/2477" target="_blank">RICHES Podcast Documentaries, Episode 25: The Railways of Central Florida</a>." RICHES of Central Florida. https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/items/show/2477.
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
Cravero, Geoffrey
Interviewee
McFarland, Warren
Bit Rate/Frequency
574kbps
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
Oral History of Warren McFarland
Alternative Title
Oral History, McFarland
Subject
Orlando (Fla.)
Avon Park (Fla.)
Telegraph
Railroads--Florida
Description
An oral history interview of Warren McFarland, a telegrapher, train dispatcher, railroad station agent, grocery clerk, Railroad Safety and Service Agent, Assistant Regional Director and Regional Manager for the Interstate Commerce Commission, and Director of the Office of Compliance and Consumer Assistance. The interview was conducted by Geoffrey Cravero at the University of Central Florida in Orlando, Florida, on January 28, 2016. Some of the interview topics covered include McFarland’s early years and formative experiences, his family life, growing up as the son of a railroad station agent and telegrapher in a railroad depot, World War II, railroad work and telegraphy in his time versus his father’s time, his first job as a grocery clerk, the “extra board” and railroad seniority, working for the Interstate Commerce Commission (ICC), the Trans-Alaska Pipeline System, the Morse Telegraph Club, female telegraphers, American Morse Code versus International Morse Code, acquiring a piece of the first transcontinental telegraph line, train dispatching, overcoming communication limits, an explanation of telegrapher’s paralysis, and Guglielmo Marconi’s contributions to wireless telegraphy.
Table Of Contents
0:00:00 Introduction<br />0:01:59 Family life<br />0:04:45 Growing up in a railroad depot and World War II<br />0:07:34 Railroad work and telegraphy in father’s time<br />0:09:38 First job as a grocery clerk, the “extra board” and railroad seniority<br />0:11:45 Interstate Commerce Commission<br />0:17:22 Morse Telegraph Club<br />0:26:12 First transcontinental telegraph line<br />0:23:17 Train dispatching and overcoming communication limits<br />0:28:39 Telegraphy demonstration<br />0:35:23 Guglielmo Marconi and wireless telegraphy
Abstract
Oral history interview of Warren McFarland Interview conducted by Geoffrey Cravero at the University of Central Florida in Orlando, Florida.
Type
Moving Image
Source
McFarland, Warren. Interviewed by Geoffrey Cravero. Audio/video record available. <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>, Orlando, Florida.
Requires
<a href="http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/" target="_blank"> Adobe Flash Player</a>
<a href="http://java.com/en/download/index.jsp" target="_blank"> Java</a>
<a href="http://www.adobe.com/products/reader.html" target="_blank">Adobe Acrobat Reader</a>
Is Part Of
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/collections/show/97" target="_blank">Central Florida Railroad Depots Collection</a>, RICHES of Central Florida.
Has Format
Digital transcript of original 35-minute and 41-second oral history: McFarland, Warren. Interviewed by Geoffrey Cravero. Audio/video record available. <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>, Orlando, Florida.
Coverage
Ohio
Avon Park Atlantic Coast Line Train Station, Avon Park, Florida
Ocala Union Station, Ocala, Florida
Chicago, Illinois
Atlanta, Georgia
San Francisco, California
Frances Perkins Building, Washington, D.C.
Golden Spike National Historic Site, Brigham City, Utah
Creator
McFarland, Warren
Cravero, Geoffrey
Publisher
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>
Date Created
2016-01-28
Date Copyrighted
2016-01-28
Format
video/mp4
application/pdf
Extent
197 MB
Medium
35-minute and 41-second audio/video recording
14-page digital transcript
Language
eng
Mediator
History Teacher
Economics Teacher
Provenance
Originally created by Warren McFarland and Geoffrey Cravero and published by <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>.
Rights Holder
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>
Accrual Method
Item Creation
Curator
Cravero, Geoffrey
Digital Collection
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a>
Source Repository
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>
External Reference
Mulligan, Michael. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/225874809" target="_blank"><em>Railroad Depots of Central Florida</em></a>. Charleston, SC: Arcadia Pub, 2008.
Turner, Gregg M. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/184906141" target="_blank"><em>A Journey into Florida Railroad History</em></a>. Gainesville: University Press of Florida, 2008.
Murdock, R. Ken. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/38291666" target="_blank"><em>Outline History of Central Florida Railroads</em></a>. Winter Garden, Fla: Central Florida Chapter, National Railway Historical Society, 1997.
"<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/items/show/2477" target="_blank">RICHES Podcast Documentaries, Episode 25: The Railways of Central Florida</a>." RICHES of Central Florida. https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka2/items/show/2477.
Coe, Lewis. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/25509648" target="_blank"><em>The Telegraph: A History of Morse's Invention and Its Predecessors in the United States</em></a>. Jefferson, N.C.: McFarland, 1993.
Stone, Richard D. <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/23649628" target="_blank"><em>The Interstate Commerce Commission and the Railroad Industry: A History of Regulatory Policy. New York: Praeger, 1991</em></a>.
Click to View (Movie, Podcast, or Website)
<a href="https://youtu.be/bzVlSEHnEaI" target="_blank">Oral History of Warren McFarland</a>
Transcript
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>Today is Thursday, January 28<sup>th</sup>, 2016. My name’s Geoffrey Cravero and I’m speaking with Warren McFarland at the University of Central Florida in Orlando. Thanks for speaking with us today, Mr. McFarland. Let’s, uh, begin with some of your biography. Could you, uh, tell us a little bit about where you’re originally from and your upbringing?</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>Well, I was—I was born in Ohio, but we moved to Orlando when I was a year and a half old, so I count myself as a Floridian, and my father worked for the railroad here in Or—Orlando, and eventually went to Avon Park and was Railroad Agent there for many years, and that’s where I grew up, went to high school and—and, uh, where I went—learned from him—I learned the telegraph, I learned railroad work, and eventually went to work for the railroad after I graduated from high school in 1941. Um, had—had planned to go to college, but 1941 was not a good year to college, uh [<em>coughs</em>] and, uh, I wound up working on another railroad division, rather than the one that went through Avon Park, w—working out of Ocala, and I worked there, uh, for like 25 years, and then I was offered a position with the Interstate Commerce Commission, and I went, um—went with them, and uh, we—we lived in different places: uh, Chicago, Atlanta, San Francisco, and Washington, D.C, and I eventually retired as Director of the Office of Compliance for the Interstate Commerce Commission out of Washington, and I moved—we moved back to Florida after I retired, and been living here ever since.</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>That’s neat. Um, so—what, uh—could you tell us a little bit more about your, uh, your parents? And did you have any siblings, or...</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>Yes. [<em>clears throat</em>] Uh, well, I had, uh, two brothers and three sisters. Uh, the three—the three sisters and one of the brothers were half—half-brothers and sisters, but I didn’t know the difference. Um, they were—they were all older than I, and, uh, so—uh, they were my brothers and sisters, and still are. Al—although they’re not living anymore. I’m the only one of the six that’s still alive, but, uh, my parents were both from Southeastern Ohio, and my father worked for the railroad there, uh, for like 18 years, I think it was, and then he decided to come to Florida and get rich in the Florida Boom in the 1920s. Uh, that didn’t work, so he went back to the railroad and worked for the railroad until he retired [<em>clears throat</em>], and, um, my mother, uh, she was just a farm girl, but she—she worked for a doctor as a receptionist, and she later worked, um, at—in the express office with my father, and then, she—when he retired, she retired, and so, uh, they lived—live—they lived in Avon Park until—until she could no longer take care of herself, and my—my brothers and sisters, um, they—they all—lived all over the place. One in—one in Virginia, one in, uh, Ohio, and—and Chi—and Chicago, and one in Dallas, and my—my brother lived in Avon Park his entire life. He said, “There’s no reason for—for anybody to live anywhere but Avon Park.”</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /> </strong>[<em>laughs</em>] So that’s where he stayed.</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>Were any of them, uh—did they follow in the family business of the railroad?</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>No, none of them. I’m the only one out of—out of, uh—out of six, I’m the only one that went into the railroad business, um, and my—my youngest sister’s husband did go into the railroad business, and his son also went into the railroad business, and I had an uncle that was a railroad man. So it—railroading has—has always been pretty much a—a family, uh, affair in many—in many families. You know, one—one person gets started and then—then others go in, but—but none of my brothers and sisters, uh, were interested.</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>Well, you mentioned, uh—that you—your father, uh, was a station agent and telegrapher in Avon Park. Um, could you tell us a little bit about growing up in the depot? What sort of, uh—what sort of skills and knowledge did you kind of acquire as a young man?</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>Well, [<em>clears throat</em>] uh, I—I was always—I was not a, uh— crazy about trains, but I was interested in trains and—and—and the railroading, and I can remember when I could barely, uh, reach—stand up and—and reach the tabletop like this, and my dad had me doing things that I could do in the—like stamping—taking the rubber stamp and stamping it on a piece of paper on—on what’s called a waybill, which is a—a ship—a shipment, uh, document that you fill out when you have a shipment to make, and, uh, I would st—stamp the—the Avon Park’s stamp on there that showed this, that, where it started from, but, that had to have been about about—5-6 years old when I did that, and I—off and on, all—all during my school years, I just hung around there, and I—I didn’t—I wasn’t consciously preparing for a career in railroading. A matter of fact: my older brothers and sisters all went to college and—and—and it was planned for me to go also, but, as I said earlier, I graduated in 1941, and—and they were already drafting people out of—out of my class, and, um, so I—I knew it was a matter of time. So I didn’t think there was much point in going to college at that time.</p>
<p>So I didn’t go until much later, but, uh, it—it—when—when I was in my senior year in high school, uh, that’s when you could see what was happening: the world was in turmoil, and, um—and, as I said, members of my class had—had been called up, and—so I began to learn telegraphy, and my father taught me and I practiced, and then after I graduated from—from, uh, school, he, um, told the—the railroad that I was, uh, sufficiently knowledgeable to go to work, and, uh—I—I didn’t—As I said, I didn’t—wasn’t consciously, um, aware that I was absorbing everything that I did absorb during those years, uh, hanging around the depot, but I learned an awful lot that I didn’t know I’d learned, until I went out on my own and was working.</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>What, uh—did you notice, uh, any, uh, major differences between the—the time of your father and yours when it c—comes to the, you know—the telegraphing and the—the depots?</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>Oh, yeah. Well…</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>[<em>clears throat</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>When—when my father started, telegraphing was just about—I mean, that was like the major—major, uh, means of internal communication on the rail—on nearly every railroad, and—and when I started, it still was, but it—it began to fade away the—the longer I stayed, and I—and I—I stayed until 1965, and by that time, uh, they still required, uh, uh, people to know how to telegraph to go to work, but—but—at least—as—as—as, uh, operators and agents, but they did not, uh—did not use—use it, because they—everybody had telephones and—and things of that nature. So it was not as—as use—used as much then, and—and probably—well, I left the rail—railroad for the ICC<a title="">[1]</a> in 1965, and by the early 70s, there was[sic] hardly any railroads anywhere using t—the telegraph. It was all teletype and—and telephones and things of that nature. So that—it was[sic] tremendous difference there, and now, of course, it’s gone even beyond that. It’s all computerized—email and everything else like that. Even train dispatching, which I did for—for 18 years, um—that’s become computer-assisted train dispatching and—and the computer does it. When—when—when I was working, it was—it was all in your head. You had to do it all in your head, but, now the computer—they have what they call “computer-assisted dispatching.”</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>So was, uh—I guess the depot was your very first job you had, or…</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>Well, actually, no [<em>laughs</em>]. The very first paying job I—I worked as a clerk in the A&P<a title="">[2]</a> grocery store on Saturdays, uh, which—that—in—in a small town like Avon Park, that was about the only job that—kind of job that was available to a—to a high school kid, and there were three of four, uh, grocery stores in town, and the A&P, which was a chain, the re—others were all independent, but everybody—all the kids that I knew worked at one—one of the grocery stores. That’s where you got your first job.</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>] Um, so I understand you ended up in Ocala, right? But, uh—but you kind of went from—where you were needed, um…</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>Yes, you—when—when you begin railroading as—as a telegraph operator, you—you are put on what they call “the extra board.” Uh, um, you—you—your first day, you establish the date of your seniority, and that means that anybody that’s hired after you—you—you have rights over them on—on—if you want to claim a job or something like that, and—and the same thing hold—anybody that[sic] hired ahead of you can claim a job that’s—whether you want—whether you want it or not, and so, you—as—on the extra board, you just went where you were needed. Uh, somebody needed to be off sick, uh—there were no vacation—no paid vacation at the time, so that—uh, there was not much of that. Although some—some people did take vacations, and you went and worked for them, or they put on extra jobs because of seasonal problems—uh, season—seasonable increases in—in business, they’d put on an extra job somewhere to help the dispatchers handle trains, and so, you worked all over. I worked, uh, I don’t know how many different places. I could probably count it up. Not worth it.</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>[<em>laughs</em>] Um, let’s see. Before the, uh, Atlantic Coast Line Railroad merged with the Seaboard Air Line [Railroad], um, and absorbed the Tavares & Gulf Railroad in 1969, you’d already moved to California at that point. Could you tell us a little bit about what you did out there with the Interstate Commerce Commission?</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>Well, I—I—I—my first job with the ICC was in Chicago as—as a Railroad Safety and Service Agent, and, uh, in—in that capacity, I—I made what we call “agency checks” and “yard checks,” and we—we had two things: we were looking for compliance with the—with the tariffs, which had the force of law, and we were looking for, um, equipment that was not being used efficiently, and so, the—as the—and—and the other thing that—that in—in ’65, we also were charged with safety, uh, inspections of equipment and things of that nature.</p>
<p>However, in—in ’67 —1967, all of that was transferred into the newly-formed [U.S.] Department of Transportation, and so we no longer had any kind of safety obligation, but we still retained the car service, which was car—car efficiency, and—and the tariff and—and regulation, and so, I would go from—to various agencies along, um—in my territory. I had an—had an assigned territory, and I was supposed to visit these agencies on a periodic basis and ver—verify that they were complying with all of the rules and regulations, and that they were not delaying any equipment—and that was being used, and from there I—I was transferred to Atlanta doing the same thing, but, uh—and I stayed there for, uh, about five years, and then I was, uh, promoted and went back to Chicago as Assistant Regional Director there, and in—in that capacity, I was assisting the Re—Regional Director and overseeing all of the people that were doing the kind of work I was just desc—describing, and then, um, in ’73, I was, uh, promoted again and went to, um, San Francisco as, um, Regional Manager, and I had the, uh, responsibility for the 13 western states, plus Alaska and Hawaii. Uh, now, railroads and—and buses and trucks don’t run to Hawaii from the mainland, but—but—so we didn’t do much there, but what—I still had the responsibility for Hawaii and Alaska, and I was overseeing not only the—the people who were doing the work that I was talking about earlier, but I was also overseeing the—the lawyers, who—who, uh, handled the cases that were made and the—and the accountants that were—were auditing the—the books of the various, uh, carriers—motor and rail and barge lines and pipelines, and part of the—part of—and—and when I was in, um, San Francisco, the, um, uh, [Trans-]Alaska Pipeline [System] was being built and we had to oversee that, and the law required, at that time, that—and people usually don’t know this because a pipeline is a common carrier, and so, in order to know what they could charge, you had to know what their costs were to build and maintain the—the pipeline, and to do that, we had to have auditors go in and verify, and about ha—halfway through construction, everybody woke up that this was a nine billion dollar, uh, enterprise, and if we waited ‘til after the fact to—to, uh, audit it, we’d nev—they’d never know what they—what they could po—possibly charge. So we sent a team of auditors up there, and they stayed there for about three years determining the actual cost so that the pipeline could go into—into operation when it was finished, but then, after—I was—I was in San Francisco until 1981, and, um, the—the new chairman that had been appointed by President [Ronald] Reagan, uh, was—knew me, and he brought me into Washington[, D.C.] as Director of the Office of Compliance and Consumer Assistance, and I stayed there until I retired in ’85, but in—in Washington, I had oversight over the—the entire country for all of the things that I’ve been talking about that we did. Plus, uh, a lot of local stuff and—going up to Congress and taking care of that sort of thing.<strong> </strong></p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>I read, uh, [<em>clears throat</em>] that the Morse Telegraph Club[, Inc.] used to meet at the [Central Florida] Railroad Museum on [Samuel] Morse’s birthday.<a title="">[3]</a> Could you tell me a little about, uh, the club and how that all came about?</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>Well, it’s—it—it started, actually, back in the 1930s. Uh, some people that were telegraphers decided that they—that it would be a good idea to make—to have a club, and it was more or less a fraternal organization, at the time. I say “fraternal,” although there are a lot of women telegraphers. Uh, throughout the—the whole history of telegraphy, there—there have been a lot of women telegraphers, and probably, on the railroad, was—may have well have been the first industry that paid women the same wage as men for doing the same job, which was not true in—in—not true even today in many—many cases, but, uh, anyhow, these people got together and—and, as I said, it was just sort of a—I won’t say a drinking club, because it wasn’t that, but it was—it was a social club more than anything else, and then it—it sort of faded away a little bit, uh, and just hanging on by its teeth, you might say, and—and then, um, uh—I’m not sure of the exact dates, but sometime after World War II, when—when telegraphy began to fade away, as I had mentioned earlier on [inaudible] on the railroad, Western Union [Company] had al—already almost gone completely to—to teletype, uh, by that time, and, um, so the—the organization transformed itself into, uh, an historical preservation organization, and the goal of—of the, um—of the organization today is to preserve the knowledge and history and the technology that existed, uh, when the telegraph was in use, and, um, we organize in chapters.</p>
<p>Uh, we used to have a chapter in every state and some states had—had, uh, two chapters, but, uh, time has taken its toll and—and, um, now we’re down, uh—for example, the Florida chapter, of which I’m a member, um, encompasses Georgia and—and South Carolina and Tennessee, and—and Alabama. Uh, and so, the membership—the membership hasn’t really declined that much, but the membership of people who actually worked as telegraphers has obviously gone down—way down. Somebody made an estimate, and I don’t know the truth of it or not, but said there were only about 150 of us left in the organization that actually earned a living as—as telegraphers. Um, that may be true, it may not be true. I don’t know, but at the present time, we have probably around 3,000 members and we have around 30 chapters in the United States and Canada, and we—we do demonstrations at—at just about any place that will invite us to do a demonstration, but mostly to local historical societies that have an annual affair and they want something, uh, of, um—that—that has some historical significance, and so they’ll ask us to come and do—do a demonstration [<em>clears throat</em>], and many of these members that we have now have taught themselves to telegraph.</p>
<p>They’ve never worked as telegraphers, but they’ve taught themselves to telegraph, and some of the—some of the members are ham radio<a title="">[4]</a> operators, which uses a—a different code, but it’s still Morse Code. It’s an international code, known as International [Morse] Code, as opposed to American Morse [Code], which was the kind that was used on railroads and Western Union and stock markets and, uh, all of that sort of thing.</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>[<em>clears throat</em>] I understand that it— somehow you, uh—you acquired a piece of the very first telegraph line that stretched all the way out to California.</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>Yes.</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>And how’d that—how’d that—how’d you end up acquiring that?</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>I didn’t think…</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>[<em>clears throat</em>].</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>To bring that today, uh, but we—we have a website that’s—the Florida chapter has a website, and, uh, an outfit in Utah was setting up, um, an exhibit in a museum,<a title="">[5]</a> uh, where at a—at a—at a former Army camp. Uh, when I say former, I’m talking about [American] Civil War-era Army camp [<em>laughs</em>] that was one of the first stations on the Transcontinental Tre—Telegraph Line, and so they wanted some historical reference to the telegraph in their museum there, and, uh, they found our website on the internet and contacted us, and we were able to get them some telegraph instruments and assist them, and some months later, they, uh, contacted us again and said they had come into possession of a link of the original Transcontinental Telegraph Wire—came from Northeastern, uh, Nevada—just across the Utah line in Northeastern Nevada, and a man had found it and had donated, uh, a length of it—I don’t know how much—but had donated a length of it to this museum, and they wanted to know if we would like to have a piece of it, and so they sent us about two and a half feet: about 30 inches of it—a piece about that long, and it’s—it’s—it was a nine gauge, which is heavy, heavy wire. I mean, it’s—it’s almost a quarter, uh—not—not a quarter. Maybe, uh—it’s over an eighth of an inch thick—uh, the—the wire is, and it’s almost impossible to bend it with your bare hands.</p>
<p>It’s—it’s that thick, and it’d been laying out in the, uh—in the open in the desert out there near—near the old, uh, Pony Express route and the, um, stagecoach route that went west through there [<em>coughs</em>], and, um, they, uh—they kept, um—they kept it there, um, um—it—laid out there in the desert, and—and doesn’t rust like it would in—here in Florida, you know? It would all be rusted away [<em>laughs</em>] if that had happened here, and so we had that piece of—of the wire, and we—we debated as a—as an organization what to do with it. It wasn’t big enough to use anywhere really. So we wound up—and we cut it into pieces about, um, six inches long and mounted it on plaques, uh, and with a little bit of a history of it on the back of the plaque, and we use that in our demonstrations. Uh, we take it—take it around where—and we—we have these plaques distributed among the membership, so that there’s al—[always] one available somewhere, but it’s very interesting and—and—the interesting—one of the things about it, that the—it was shipped to me—mailed to me in a padded envelope and it was rolled—folded up, and I tried to straighten it out with my hands when I took it out of the envelope. I could not do it. We had to finally put it in a vice and—and hold down one end of it, and finally got it straightened out, and it was so hard that you couldn’t cut it with wire cutters or anything like that. You had to use a saw to cut it, uh [<em>clears </em>throat] but that was what—the wire that was used in the, uh, original Transcontinental Telegraph Line in 8—finished in 1861 [<em>coughs</em>].<strong> </strong></p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>Wow, incredible. Well, let’s see. Before we, uh—give us a little demonstration, do you have anything else that you’d like to add? Any final thoughts or…</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>Well, I—I don’t know anything off the top of my head. Uh, uh, railroading was an interesting occupation, and I’m sure it’s still is, although I’ve been away from it now for many years. I’ve been retired for 30 years now, so, uh—and I—I’d left the railroad for 20 years before that, so [<em>laughs</em>] it’s been awhile since I’ve been railroading, but, I—I enjoyed the—the—working there, and as I said, I worked as a train dispatcher, which was, um, very complex and complicated job to keep the trains moving.</p>
<p>Uh, when I started, an old time dispatcher said, “Oh, there’s nothing to it.” Said, “You just—you just meet ‘em—don’t meet ‘em too close together or too far apart.” [<em>laughs</em>] Well, its’—that’s an oversimplification, but it—it’s what you—that’s exactly what you were trying to do was—is to move the trains over the—over the, uh, territory wi—in—in the most efficient manner possible, and that, you know—and single track and—and—and, uh, with limited, uh, communication. You had no communication—when I started, you had no communication with—with the people on the train other than handing them up, uh—as they pass an open telegraph office you—you could hand them up orders or, uh, messages of what you want to do, or they could throw off something as they went by, but, um, that was an interesting, uh, occupation and—and very demanding, very challenging. Um, somewhat comparable to an aircraft, uh, uh, air—air controller, except that we couldn’t tell the tr—trains to pull up and go around or—or, uh, fly higher and—and not hit—hit the train ahead of them. They were—they were, uh, consigned to the track. They had to stay on the track, so made—made it a little bit more complicated.</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>Well, I guess, if you would, let’s, uh, give us a little demonstration here. Let me see if I…</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>Well, I’m sorry…</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>Can...</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>That this is not working. I don’t know what it is, but, this—this is the sound [<em>tapping</em>]—this is the sound of—this instrument in—in this is called a sounder, [<em>tapping</em>] and this, uh, box-like object is called a resonator, and the purpose of it is to focus the sound so it can be, uh, heard more clearly, and the can—the Prince Albert tobacco can, we—we now—we call it the “first solid-state amplifier,” because it makes a difference [<em>tapping</em>]. If you can hear the different—[<em>tapping</em>] with and without the can [<em>tapping</em>], and somebody back in the—in the early days of this discovered that you could do that—that, because a railroad agent had more to do than just sit at a desk and listen—listen for this. Uh, he had to be out in the freight warehouse or [<em>inaudible</em>] out—outside with the train going by or something like that, and he needed to be able to hear the dispatcher’s wire when that was happening.</p>
<p>So that, um, uh—that really changed the way that you could do that, and—and [<em>inaudible</em>] I never worked a job that didn’t have a can stuck in the resonator like that, and this—this, uh, is just the same thing and—and—[<em>tapping</em>] with a key here. I’ll move this out of the way. This—this has a key [<em>tapping</em>] and that’s the way you sound it, and you make a dot [<em>tap</em>] by closing the key [<em>tap</em>] real quickly and a dash [<em>tap</em>] by holding it down three times as long as you do for the dot, and you [<em>tapping</em>] do that to spell out, uh, everything that you want to say, and, like texters today, we use a lot of abbreviations. As a matter of fact, many of the abbreviations that texters are using were being used by telegraphers a hundred years ago, but, this is the key [<em>tap</em>] and this is the sounder, and then this called a bug, and it’s called a bug because the logo is a beetle, and nobody knows why they chose that as their logo, but they did.</p>
<p>It started out—if you—if you worked 8 hours or 12 hours a day, which, uh, up until the Hours of Service [HOS] law went into effect in 1908, that’s, uh—you worked 12 hours a day, [<em>tapping</em>] and you worked 12 hours a day with this up and down motion you—you developed telegrapher’s paralysis. We call it carpel tunnel syndrome now, but it was telegrapher’s paralysis then [<em>tapping</em>], and so they began experimenting what you could do to—to alleviate it, and the first thing they did was turn the key on its side and work it back and forth, and they kept working with it and eventually came into this form, and this is now called a vi—a—a speed key, and I can’t demonstrate because my power somehow or another is not working here today [<em>tapping</em>], but, um, you—the speed key—if—if I want to make a—a series of dots with—with this straight key [<em>tapping</em>], it goes like that, but, with the speed key, I can do it just [<em>tap</em>] with—with one movement of my thumb, and so, that relieved the carpel tunnel, but it also speeded everything up.</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>And so, those are the—those are the—the principal instruments that—that were used by landline telegraphers, and that—the—this is called American Morse, and it was used, uh, all over—all over the world, really. It—it just changed the whole world, and then, uh, in the late 8—1800s, [Guglielmo] Marconi discovered that you could send, uh, power through the, uh—through the air and—and modulate it and—and make a—a code—send code through the air, and they did—they did that and—using a—a slightly different code. Uh, the—this code—the American Morse Code has a lot of spaces in it, which makes it, uh, uh, a lot quicker, but, with the—when it went to radio, they couldn’t tell whether the spaces were accidental or intentional, and so they eliminated the space letters and everything became, um, uh, the—the tone then—the length of the tone was—determined whether it was a dot or a dash, and that sounded like this [<em>beeping</em>], but, uh—and that’s still used by ham radio operators and all base radio stations, like your local police station and your fire stations and things of that nature, are required by the Federal Communications Commission to identify themselves every hour, and now they use a computer, but every hour on the hour, uh, these—these stations will identify themselves using International Morse Code, sending their call letters—whatever they might be, and that—your television stations, your—your commercial radio stations, they all have to do this—do that, and they do it. So that, uh, America—I mean, the International Morse Code is still in use, uh, quite a bit with ham radio operators and that. American Morse—the last known use in the United States was in 1983, but th—that was just really an anomaly, because it had—by the mid-70s it had pretty much disappeared, but there’s just this one place out in Montana that still was using it until 1983.</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>That’s fantastic [<em>clears throat</em>]. Mr. McFarland, we really appreciate you sharing your story with us and demonstrating the tools of your trade.</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>Well, I’m happy to do it. Happy to do it.</p>
<p><strong>Cravero<br /></strong>Alright. Well, thank you so much. That will conclude our interview and, uh, we really appreciate you being here with us.</p>
<p><strong>McFarland<br /></strong>Thank you.</p>
<div><br /><div>
<p><a title="">[1]</a> Interstate Commerce Commission.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a title="">[2]</a> Great Atlantic & Pacific Tea Company.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a title="">[3]</a> April 27.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a title="">[4]</a> Also called amateur radio.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a title="">[5]</a> Golden Spike National Historic Site.</p>
</div>
</div>
A&P grocery
abbreviations
ACL
agency checks
Alaska
American Morse Code
Atlantic Coast Line Railroad Company
auditors
audits
Avon Park
Avon Park Atlantic Coast Line Train Station
barge lines
bugs
California
carpal tunnel syndrome
Central Florida Railroad Museum
Chicago, Illinois
communication limits
communications
computer-assisted train dispatching
conscription
CTS
Dallas, Texas
Department of Transportation
DOT
drafts
equal pay
extra boards
FCC
Federal Communications Commission
first solid-state amplifiers
first transcontinental telegraphs
Florida Boom
Frances Perkins Building
freight warehouses
Geoffrey Cravero
grocery clerks
grocery stores
Guglielmo Marconi
ham radio operators
ham radios
Hawaii
historical preservation
HOS
Hours of Service
ICC
International Morse Code
Interstate Commerce Commission
landline telegraphers
landline telegraphs
landline telegraphy
Montana
Morse Telegraph Club, Inc.
Nevada
Ocala
Ocala Union Station
Ohio
orlando
paid vacations
Pony Express
Prince Albert tobacco cans
railroad agents
railroad depots
Railroad Morse
Railroad Safety and Service Agent
railroad stations
railroading
railroads
railways
regulations
resonators
Ronald Reagan
Ronald Wilson Reagan
safety inspections
SAL
Samuel Finley Breese Morse
Samuel Morse
San Francisco, California
Seaboard Air Line Depot
Seaboard Air Line Railroad
social clubs
solid-state amplifiers
sounders
South Carolina
speed keys
stagecoach routes
TAPS
Tavares & Gulf Railroad
telegraph instruments
telegraph keys
telegrapher's paralysis
telegraphers
telegraphs
telegraphy
telephones
teletypes
Tennessee
text abbreviations
The Great Atlantic & Pacific Tea Company
train depots
train dispatchers
train dispatching
train stations
trains
Trans-Alaska Pipeline System
transcontinental telegraphs
UCF
University of Central Florida
Utah
Virginia
Warren McFarland
Washington, D.C.
waybills
Western Union
Winter Garden
wireless telegraphers
wireless telegraphs
wireless telegraphy
World War II
WWII
yard checks
-
https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka/files/original/378c547cb1fb19da8e25aae19aee243c.pdf
ad6257c6761caa408a17dd2d1b226d92
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
Hannibal Square Collection
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
Oral Memoirs of Fairolyn Livingston
Alternative Title
Oral History, Fairolyn Livingston
Subject
Winter Park (Fla.)
African Americans--Florida
Museums--Florida
Civil rights--Florida
Description
An oral history interview of Fairolyn H. Livingston, chief historian of the Hannibal Square Heritage Center in Winter Park, Florida. The interview was conducted by Geoffrey Cravero at the Hannibal Square Heritage Center on December 12, 2019. Some of the topics covered include growing up in a segregated community, finding the resources to attend college, becoming involved in the Hannibal Square Heritage Center and documenting the community’s history, why residents attended churches of multiple denominations, conducting difficult interviews and how those who have experienced oppression have refused to allow it to define them, how gentrification has affected sense of community, changes in the community since de-segregation and gentrification, the challenges of preserving a marginalized community’s history and coming to terms with the long-lasting effects of segregation, how government policies encourage gentrification and her final remarks.
Table Of Contents
0:00:00 Growing up in a segregated community <br />0:04:54 Finding the resources to attend college <br />0:12:34 Becoming involved in the Hannibal Square Heritage Center and documenting the community’s history <br />0:23:54 Why residents attended churches of multiple denominations <br />0:27:35 Conducting difficult interviews and how those who have experienced oppression have refused to allow it to define them <br />0:27:35 Conducting difficult interviews and how those who have experienced oppression have refused to allow it to define them <br />0:35:30 Changes in the community since de-segregation and gentrification, the challenges of preserving a marginalized community’s history and coming to terms with the long-lasting effects of segregation <br />1:02:05 How government policies encourage gentrification and her final remarks
Abstract
Oral history interview of Fairolyn Livingston. Interview conducted by Geoffrey Cravero in Winter Park, Florida, on December 12, 2019.
Type
Moving Image
Source
Livingston, Fairolyn. Interviewed by Geoffrey Cravero, December 12, 2019. Audio record available. <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES of Central Florida</a>, Orlando, Florida.
Requires
Multimedia software, such as <a href="http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/" target="_blank"> QuickTime</a>.
<a href="http://www.adobe.com/products/reader.html" target="_blank">Adobe Acrobat Reader</a>
Is Part Of
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/omeka/collections/show/221" target="_blank">Hannibal Square Collection</a>, Winter Park Collection, Orange County Collection, RICHES.
Has Format
Digital transcript of original 1-hour, 6-minute, and 43-seconds oral history: Livingston, Fairolyn. Interviewed by Geoffrey Cravero. Audio record available. <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES</a>, Orlando, Florida.
Coverage
Crealdé School of Art, Winter Park, Florida
The Golden Point, Winter Park, Florida
Hannibal Square, Winter Park, Florida
Hannibal Square Heritage Center, Winter Park, Florida
Mount Moriah Missionary Baptist Church, Winter Park, Florida
Robert Hungerford Preparatory High School, Eatonville, Florida
Rollins College, Winter Park, Florida
Ward Chapel African Methodist Episcopal Church, Winter Park, Florida
Winter Park, Florida
Winter Park High School, Winter Park, Florida
Creator
Livingston, Fairolyn
Cravero, Geoffrey
Publisher
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES</a>
Contributor
Lester, Connie
Date Created
2019-12-12
Date Copyrighted
2019-12-12
Format
video/mp4
application/pdf
Extent
1.61 GB
269 KB
Medium
1-hour, 6-minute, and 43-seconds video recording
21-page digital transcript
Language
eng
Mediator
History Teacher
Civics/Government Teacher
Humanities Teacher
Provenance
Originally created by Geoffrey Cravero and Fairolyn Livingston and published by <a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES</a>.
Rights Holder
<a href="http://riches.cah.ucf.edu/" target="_blank">RICHES</a>
Accrual Method
Item Creation
Curator
Cravero, Geoffrey
Digital Collection
<a href="https://richesmi.cah.ucf.edu/map/" target="_blank">RICHES MI</a>
External Reference
Schreyer, Peter. <em><a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/961806111" target="_blank">The Hannibal Square Heritage Collection: Photographs and Oral Histories : Winter Park, Florida, USA.</a></em> 2016.
Norris, Jim, Claire Strom, Danielle Johnson, and Sydney Marshall. <em><a href="http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/1148874669" target="_blank">Winter Park</a></em>. Mount Pleasant: Arcadia Publishing Inc, 2015. .
Click to View (Movie, Podcast, or Website)
<a href="https://youtu.be/Jo08Owkgeps" target="_blank">Oral History of Fairolyn Livingston</a>
Transcript
Cravero
Alright. Today is Thursday, December 12th, 2019. My name is Geoffrey Cravero. And with me is Dr. Connie Lester. I’m speaking with Fairolyn Livingston at the Hannibal Square Heritage Center in Winter Park, Florida. Ms. Livingston, thank you for speaking with us today. Uh, if we can, let’s begin with a little of your biography. Could you tell us a bit about where you’re originally from and your upbringing?
Livingston
Well, I’m originally from Winter Park, Florida. I was born a block away from here at 800 West New England Avenue here in the city. In the area called Hannibal Square. I attended the local schools here. Of course, during my time, those school were segregated. And, uh, once we finished sixth grade here in the community, we were bussed to the segregated Hungerford High School over in Eatonville, Florida.
I attended the churches in the community. Participated in the activities at the community center that had been built for the African American community. Uh, I had a happy childhood. You know? Because—I would say because the community was segregated, and we lived among people who looked like us. So the preacher was—the preacher looked like me. The—the students in the churches looked like me. The teachers looked like me. So I can probably say that we might have been a little bit, uh, as children, unaware of segregation or racism. You know? Because that was the way it was. I’m sure our parents knew because ofttimes they would warn us about different things and different places. Uh, what we might face. Some harm or some harsh words. Or some ugly words. But, other than that, um, I would say I had a good childhood.
Cravero
Excellent. Um, would you tell us a little bit about your experiences at Hungerford High School, and then, eventually, at Rollins College? And how those experiences might have influenced your work.
Livingston
Well, at Hungerford High School, uh, we started at the seventh-grade level. And we went through, uh, twelfth grade. And I graduated in 1964. Teachers—they were good teachers. But they also made sure that we towed the line. You know? Because not only was it about academics, which was very strenuous, but also about your conduct and how you carried yourself. That was very important. So it didn’t matter what background you came from. Whether or not you was—you were middle class, uh, uh, any other class. You learned how to conduct yourself in any kind of situation.
You know? In our Home Economics classes, not only did we learn to sew and do homemaker-type things, but also how to serve and how to, uh, properly set tables. And—and use the, uh, eating utensils and all. So everything prepared us for the world that we would be entering. And that world would have been a world that was segregated. So w—we were treated, uh, and educated to survive in that type of world. In other words, we were somebody. We were knowledgeable. We could do anything we wanted to do. They always let us know that we could accomplish whatever we wanted to accomplish. So we never felt like we were hindered because of segregation or racism.
In fact, uh, Climmie Boyer, who was several years older than myself and a graduate from Hungerford, he once said in the seventies when we had a celebration to honor our former principal at the school, that we really didn’t know we were poor until they told us. You know? Until they started saying everything about poverty and—and low income. You know? We [laughs]—we didn’t know we were poor. So I guess that’s why some of us—well, many of us out of this community were able to overcome. Because we didn’t have that kind of a thing stuck into our heads by our educators.
After I graduated from high school, I didn’t think that I would be able to go to college because I was raised by my grandmother with three other siblings. And I was the oldest. And basically, I was like the matriarch of my siblings. Um, I got scholarship offers, but I knew that my family didn’t have the money to fill in the gap. So basically [clears throat], even though I desired to go, I had more or less, um, accepted the fact that it would not happen.
And then one Sunday, I was in church at New Hope Missionary Baptist Church on Capen Avenue. I was in the choir stand because I sang in the junior choir. And the usher came to the choir door and asked me to come out. That there was a gentleman there that wanted to talk to me. And so I left the choir stand and went around, uh, to the front of the church. And the gentleman was—was from a segregated community college in Leesburg, Florida. And, uh, he offered me a scholarship. You know? That I—that—that he had just, you know, studied my transcript and whatever.
Then I got an offer from a community college in Ocala, Florida. Hampton Junior College. That’s now Central Florida State College. And I accepted that one because they told me that they would, you know, find me some part-time work to fill in the gap between financial aid, et cetera.
Not knowing my—unknown to me, rather, my grandmother, Victoria Redfin, she went down to the First National Bank on Park Avenue and New England, where Luma’s on Park is now. And she went to the cashier at the—the teller. And she wanted to s—know if she could borrow some money to help send her granddaughter to college. And the teller told her to go over and talk to one of the ladies that handle loans. And so my grandmother went over there. And the lady told her, “Why don’t you go upstairs and talk to Mrs. Nancy Bradford?” Mrs. Nancy Bradford was a part of Winter Park’s Worthy Persons group, which now, I believe, is part of the Winter Park Foundation. So my grandmother went up to see Mrs. Bradford. And Mrs. Bradford, unbeknownst to me or my grandmother, started some paperwork with the people on the committee that included Mrs., uh, J. Lynn Pflug . Mrs. Pflug’s husband had once been the mayor of Winter Park. So Mrs. Pflug and others—they did the research. You know? Contacted my high school. Contacted the junior college where I was. And next thing I knew, I got a letter from them saying that they would be financing me for the school year. And, uh, for two years, I got that scholarship. Every two weeks without fail, I got a stipend, uh, from that group. So that’s how I ended up being able to go to—to college.
However, I got pregnant after I graduated and got my A.A. degree. And so my dreams of finishing a four-year college, you know, got backburnered. And, uh, it wasn’t until the late-seventies that I started going to evening classes at Rollins College. I had some financial aid, but mostly I paid for my own. And, um, I had worked for the State of Florida since about 1971, so I had a lot of savings bonds. It was toward the end of the journey. I started cashing in the savings bonds to pay for my tuition.
Well, it was my last session, and I was out of financial options, if you will. I had a friend of mine. She was from Dunedin, Florida. Her, uh, parents owned a, uh—their own business. And they were avid golfers. And they were supportive of, uh, what used to be the tournament at Rio Pinar, and then subsequently at Bay Hill. Her father always participated and contributed to, uh, a scholarship fund led by Lee Elder . Lee Elder was a black golfer. And so I guess she must have shared with him my story because she invited me and my children over to her parents. And we’d visit them off and on over the years. And her father said to me—she and her parents—both her parents were there. She said, “You know, every year, we donate money to Lee Elder’s scholarship fund. And we have no doubt that Lee does the right thing with that money. But we have decided that, since we know someone who can use that money, we’re gonna divert that money to you.” And that’s how I was able to graduate from Rollins Hamilton Holt in 1983.
So I come from a situation of “it takes a village.” You know? Whoever I am, whatever I am, it come from this community. And that was sewn into me. Basically, I’d say it’s in my DNA. And because of the way I conduct myself. I’ll never forget the bridge that brought me over. That draws people to me. And people willing to be there with—with and—and for me. And for that, I’m eternally grateful. So that’s how I got from not being able to go into college and thinking that to actually finishing up with an A.A. degree and subsequentl—subsequently with a B.A. degree. So I’ve had a lot of, uh, blessings from on high. You know? It wasn’t that—it wasn’t Fairolyn. Because there’s a saying that, uh, “sometimes you find yourself in a place and you only see one set of footprints. And that’s because God carried you.” And sometimes when I got to a certain place, I’d wonder, “How did I get here?” You know? I just— I j[laughs]—it just—it’s just amazing. Just amazing.
Cravero
Um, what—can you tell us about, uh—what is the Heritage Collection Team and how did you become involved in that project?
Livingston
Well, around 1999, 2000, Peter Schreyer with the Crealdé School of Art here in Winter Park—he had been working in the community with the seniors and the children for a number of years. You know? Providing, uh, opportunities for art. For, you know, underserved people in the community. He had won, uh, a grant from the Winter Park Public Library. And this was in the nineties. And I had won the same grant a couple years later. His project was photographic. He photographed and—the interior and the exterior of all the local churches. My project was to find some way to document the early history of the community and the role that African Americans played in the community. You know? Because when you would go to different archives, you would see different people of color in the pictures, but they weren’t named. So we didn’t know who they were. They were just faceless. And they were mostly in subservient-type situations. When I knew growing up that that wasn’t all that the black people did.
So it’s kind of odd how it happened because I didn’t set out to—to get—to apply for that grant. A group of people in the community were trying to save the Ideal Woman’s Club building . That building had once been on the property and used by the First Congregational Church here in Winter Park. And when the Ideal Woman’s Club started in the late-1920s, one of the members, Mrs. Mary Lee DePugh —she worked for Mrs. Maud Kraft. And Mrs. Kraft interceded on behalf of the women to get the building. And then there was fundraising involved, uh, to buy a lot here on Pennsylvania Avenue. And to have the building moved.
Well, in the late-nineties, DePugh Nursing Home needed more space. And so, the board offered to buy or trade the land where the original building was placed to a site across the street. But the people in the community wanted the building saved. But they didn’t have the resources, nor the backing to make that happen. You know? There wasn’t enough interest citywide and there wasn’t any money communitywide to do that. You know? ‘Cause years later, Casa Feliz got moved. And then, the Capen House got moved. But that was private money, even though they moved, uh, Casa—uh, sorry—Casa Feliz to the golf course property, which is city-owned. That effort, it failed. And there were some members of the First Congregational Church who tried to work with us. To try and direct us to find some funds to move the building. To save it. But there were people that said—on the board and connected in the community—um, that said that the—that the building was, uh, termite-ridden and it wasn’t worth saving.
But someone, uh, had someone come down from the department that takes care of s—you know, that takes care of, uh, uh, preservation. And they said that the only part of the—of the building that was termite-ridden was the section that they had put on years later to close the porch in. See ‘cause there had been an open porch for years. And then they closed that porch in. And that was the part that was—had some termite problems. The rest of the place—uh, building was all this pine. And this was—was no damage. But, of course, we didn’t get the support needed. So, uh, the building was razed and a new building put up.
Long story short, I had been reading about this in the newspaper. I wasn’t living in Winer Park at the time. And it seemed like every time I picked up the paper, there was all of this negative about Hannibal Square. “Oh, the crime. And the drinking. And the brawling. And the drugs and stuff.” And I said, “That’s not where I grew up. I—W—What is this?” Yes. There’s always been people that did some of those things, but it wasn’t the whole community. You know? And they were just painting this community with this broad s—stroke as being such a terrible place to be. And that somebody needed to do something about it. Finally—and I saw about—that article in the Sentinel about, uh, razing the building and the [inaudible] of the community. And I said, “I’m gonna go to one of the meetings.” So I went to a meeting. I sat on the front row. The people who were con—who were conducting the meeting, I knew ‘em all ‘cause we all grew up together. So—but I didn’t want to get quote involved. You know? I just wanted to see what’s going on. So I sat there and I tried not to make eye contact. And I guess at some point, I must have relaxed. And I made eye contact with Eileen Abraham Bryant, who was part of the group that was trying to save it. And she mouthed to me, “We need you.” And I was hooked.
That led to me applying for a grant at the library—Winter Park Public Library. And I was—and I got that grant. It was hard at first. Trying to get information. Because [clears throat]—excuse me. Because people in the community—many were reluctant to talk about the past because they were afraid that a—in other words, they—they never said this to me, but I got the feeling that they were afraid that I might be digging up dirt. But when they began to see that I wasn’t digging up dirt, that I was trying to document the rich history of this community, most people got on board with that.
I remember as a child, my stepfather had an uncle. Frederick Simpson . Frederick—Frederick would travel all around the country. And then he would come home and stay for a few weeks. And then he’d disappear. He was in and out. And Fred would always talk about his father worked for the city. Or some kind of way involved with the city government. But, you know, as children, you know, you hear these stories. We really didn’t give much thought to it. And so that’s where I started digging to only find out that he was the son of one of the first African American men to serve on the Town Council of Winer Park. Elected in 1887 and served to 1893. And then I was able to find out that a young woman that basically was raised by the Simpson Family, that grew up in the community, that her great-grandfather was Frank R. Israel . The second black man to serve at the same time period on the Winter Park Town—Town Council. And so through, uh, the archives at the Winter Park Public Library, Rollins Library, Ancestry.com, cemeteries, interviews with many, many people, I was able to flesh out that criti—the critical roles the African American plays in the community.
One of my great sources—well, two of my great sources were Mrs. Wilhelmina Allen , whose family came here as early as 1875, and had property out across the railroad track on Pennsylvania Avenue. Then I had, uh, Mr. Alonzo Gerard Roberts , whose family came here around 1881, when Chase and a couple of his investors and supporters went over to Volusia County to where black men were working on the railroad to try to hire some black men to come and help hew out the community—the 600 acres he bought in, uh, Hannibal Square. Acres that he—‘cause he planned Hannibal Square specifically for an African American community. And so his grandfather was one of those men. And his grandfather also worked for Mr. Dommerich over in Maitland. And he owned property on the opposite side of Lake, uh—Lake Maitland. So he had groves. And then he would go across the lake and take care of the Dommerich groves. In fact, before they built their house at 1001 New York Avenue, which is now home to the First Baptist Church, he and his wife lived on the Dommerich property. Yeah.
So those two were very critical. Along with, uh, Mrs. Rose Charlton Bynum , whose family had been here since the early eight—1800s. Uh, well, around 1881, ‘82. And then, uh, her brother, Richard Harold Charlton Jr. So a lot of people I’ve interviewed, uh—Walter Simpson’s granddaughters. All of them are deceased now. But he has, uh, great, uh—great-grands and great-great-grands still living in—in the area. You know? So, um.
I wasn’t shocked. Because as a kid growing up, you know—you know, in my time of growing up, a lot of the churches didn’t have church every Sunday because the minister might have been, uh, assigned to a church here for two Sundays a month, and then somewhere else, and maybe in a rural area, for two Sundays a month. And so growing up, we all went—it didn’t matter whether or not we were Baptist. It didn’t matter whether or not we were African Methodist Episcopal. Whether or not we were members of Church of God and Christ or any denomination. We all went to the different churches. In fact, the first church/school building in the community that was built after the community was platted—because Chase donated our lot for a combination church and school. So as a result, uh, two Sundays a month, the Methodists would use the church. And then two Sunday a month, the Baptists would use the church.
It wasn’t until the town was actually incorporated in 1887, and later, that they actually took over the school for coloreds, as they called it at that time. And then the council gave the trustees of each church, the Methodists and the Baptists, money to buy other land and build their respective churches on that land. And that resulted in Mount Moriah Missionary Baptist Church, which is at the corner of Lyman and Pennsylvania Avenues, and Ward Chapel African Methodist Episcopal Church, at the corner of Welbourne and Pennsylvania Avenues. They were the first two churches established in the community. Mount Mariah being the oldest church.
And so as a kid, I would follow the Johnson children and the Berrys, my neighbors, down to Mount Moriah for Sunday school. Mrs. Ethel Cross, who was—lived on the same property as we did because the lot that my grandmother bought was 50 by about 100. And so she sold the back side of the lot to Mrs. Cross, who built a house. And so, uh, Mrs. Cross belonged to Ward Chapel AME Church. And so many Sundays, I went with her. And then Mr. Bobby Washington, whose sister-in-law lived across the street from us—he was the superintendent of the Sunday school at Ward Chapel. And many times, he would pick me up and take me to Sunday school at Ward Chapel.
So I was all over the place. And not—but not just me. That’s the way the community was. We all went to different churches other than our own churches. And I think that’s a part of, um, the success that we experienced. Uh, because we had so much exposure to different types of religions. Different types of services. Different types of people. They called, uh—I remember growing up, they called Mount Moriah “the big hat church” because the women wore big hats. You know? And, uh, it—it was—it was a—it was a good experience. You know? It was…
Cravero
Um [clears throat], could you tell us a little about, uh, some of the most memorable, or maybe even difficult, oral histories that you’ve conducted?
Livingston
I would say the most difficult would have been, um, the interviews I’ve done with the Sage Project. We’ve had, uh, three phrases—phases of the sage, where we interview people in the community ages 80 and up. And some of them—they really felt that the community had not been fairly represented and treated fairly in what was going on with gentrification. Some spoke on record. Some of them spoke off record. Some felt that, basically, members of the African American community were complicit in the gentrification. And by that, I mean that some of the later generations inherited property and opportunities. And did not stand up to the plate to do what they needed to do to hold onto it.
But for the most part, I would say all the stories were just funny. Uplifting. Sometimes we ended up just laughing. And, uh—and what made it so good was that I knew all these people because I grew up among them. I went to school with their children. And I had respect—not only respected them for—for—for decades. It’s—I would say I’ve never been disappointed in any interview I’ve done, no matter how it went. I just feel bad for those people who—especially any elderly person who ended up losing their property or not being, you know, um, fairly compensated I would say. But, um, for the most part, I understood and respected their stories. And, um, I don’t think that they were making ‘em up. They just was[sic] happy to share the happy parts of their lives rather than—you know, because it’s like Zora Neale Hurston said, “Believe it or not, these people, including myself, we didn’t—we didn’t live in the kitchen of despair.” You know? We had lives. You know? We valued our institutions. We valued our schools. You know? Just like people value on the east side of town. You know? You know? We have the same feelings about the people in our community in the—in our churches. In our schools. In our children. You know?
Um, my family never had a telephone. We never had a car. But that wasn’t a problem because somebody in my neighborhood would, um, let us use the phone if we needed to. And take us someplace if we needed to. And especially if we needed to go to something at the Hungerford School in Eatonville. You know, I had to catch a ride to my graduation, you know, uh, from high school. But most—for the most part, we used the city bus to get around. We would go up to the corner of Morse and Pennsylvania in front of the Hague’s grocery and catch the bus to Orlando. And the terminal at that time was on Pine Street. And then we could go and do our shopping and whatever we wanted to do downtown. But if you wanted to go outside of that, then we’d have to get a transfer to go someplace else in the city.
You know, sometimes people go and they look at you and they see that—that you’re different and you don’t look like them. They don’t realize that you have the same challenges. Ups. Downs. Highs. Lows. Maybe for different reasons and different ways, but it’s not like you’re walking around sulking. You know? Because, uh, this was a great place to grow up. This place was so great to grow up in that back in, um, the early-2000s, I sold a house I owned in Winter Park to my daughter and son-in-law so that they—so that like their mother—like my grandchildren’s mother and uncle grew up in Winter Park, I wanted them to experience growing up in Winter Park. So my son graduated from Winter Park High. My daughter. And my 18-year-old grandson just graduated last year. And he’s in college in Michigan. So it was good.
Cravero
Um…
Livingston
And one thing I want to add is…
Cravero
[clears throat].
Livingston
…those people that I interviewed for the Sage Project, they all owned their homes. They bought their homes in thirties and forties and fifties. And they were mortgage-free. And these people did daywork. They worked in the laundry. They worked at Rollins. They worked at the Alabama Hotel. They worked at the Morrison’s Cafeteria. And they had their own homes. And that’s something now will not be happening in—in Winter Park. If you left Winter Park for whatever reason, unless you have some big bucks, you cannot come back.
And the thing about it is, you know, this is my opinion, everybody wants a—they want a, uh, prestigious Winter Park address. And they want a sense of community. But the people I see who live here, I never see them outside their homes. I know who they are just by the homes. But I never see them out. I don’t see their children in the street playing stickball like we did coming up. Or playing hopscotch. Just out there playing. You know? And being. And doing. I know they’re there, because I can tell from the new houses that they put here. I guess they just come home and close up. And then come out. You know, and do whatever they do during the day. I’m sure some of them, they have a relationship with their neighbors. I mean, they’re neighbors. But I don’t see the sense of community that I grew up with. And for them, I feel sorry that they don’t have that experience. You know, they don’t know how to have that experience.
Cravero
That was actually touching on my, uh, next question. Was, um—would you tell us a little bit about some of the major changes that have taken place in Hannibal Square and what that means in being able to preserve the history of the community?
Livingston
Well, I would say the only saving—one of the only—well, I—I’ll put it like this. There are some things in the community. Okay? The Hannibal Square Heritage Center here. This is something that will help preserve the community. I—you have to realize that, uh, we have a 30-year lease with the City of Winter Park. We’ve already burned through 10 years. So we don’t know what the future might hold. We don’t know whether or not 20 years from now, when it’s time to request a renewal or whatever—not only that, in the interim. Because if either one of us could break the—the lease requirement, you know, with the proper notification. So we don’t know what might happen with this. We might get people on the council who don’t support this. They may say, “Well, we’ve got a history association downtown at the farmer’s market. Why do we need two?”
So as far as seeing differences, you know, I grew up—now, Hannibal Square’s always been kind of a conflicting community, as far as the business section was concerned. That’s because there was a bar. And they had little cafeterias that sold, uh, liquor and beer. And they had restaurants that sold, uh, alcoholic beverages. And you had, uh, barber shops, etc. Dry cleaners. You name it. So most families did not want their children in Hannibal Square in the business section. Because of the alcohol and booze. They—we were against that. You know? It wasn’t against the—the insti—the, uh, businesses. But they didn’t want they’re children exposed to that. But I remember as a teenager, we loved to walk past the square [laughs]. We didn’t dare go in the square, but we—that was one of our rights of passage. And then we got to driving age and had cars, we would drive through the square. It was like a right of passage.
[laughs] So, um—but, you know, there was a grocery store. And one of the grocery stores I grew up with was owned by a white family. And, um, they would give you credit on the food. Then there was another groc—there was[sic] two grocery stores owned by white families. The Davises. I can’t remember the other. Prevatt. The Prevatts and the Davises. The Davises had a store right there where Dexter’s used to be. At the corner of Pennsylvania and New England. And the Prevatts had one on the opposite side. Close to Hannibal Square East. And then the Davises moved north, near the corner of, uh, Pennsylvania and Canton in one of the, uh, Masonic lodge buildings downstairs. Which is now home to a new boutique-style, uh, store called—it was called The Grove or The Glove. Was it? Something. It’s brand new.
So, you know, I’ve seen a lot of changes. Uh, there’s only one barber shop, um, on the corner that had been there for a number of years. All the barbers that—well, two of the barbers that worked there f—one of the barbers that worked there, he’s deceased. And the other one is still living. But, they’re, you know—he’s older. This is a new group here. And, um, we had a dry cleaners. Mr. Hurley’s. Back during that time, when I was a teenager, coming up as a young person, uh, when we wore our jeans—we took our jeans to the dry cleaners. And they’d put starch in ‘em. And then they would press ‘em. And you’d have a crease in there that was so sharp, that if you did—if you weren’t careful, you might cut yourself [laughs]. Mr. Hurley was a professional, um, hat blocker. That was his specialty. And then we had, um, hairdressers in the community. We had Mrs. Christine Hardaway. We had Mrs. Alberta Kelly. We had Ms. Nellie Mae Lewis. We had, um, several more. We had many hairdressers. Because during that time, um, I was growing up, most African Americans, you know, they’d straighten their hair, you know, with a hot pressing comb and things like that. Now we’ve come to accept and appreciate our kinky hair.
So it’s, you know—we had the community center, where we’d have Saturday night dance—dances with teenagers. We had Saturday night dances. Uh, when I was in elementary school, during the, uh, World Series baseball games, um, if you wanted to go and watch the baseball on a little, small tv sitting up on the stage, they would bring the kids over who wanted to watch the baseball game. Um, that’s—community center had a jukebox in it. So if you’re doing, you know—if you went over there during the daytime, you know—went after school or whatever, you could play the jukebox and pool table. And, of course, like I said, the Saturday night dance [digital alarm rings]. And now at that time, there was a, uh, dj on AM radio, was named—they called him Little Daddy. And he visited all the rural African American communities in Central Florida. So wherever he was scheduled to go for the weekend or Saturday night, he would advertise it during his show. And most times, he would say something like, “Okay. We’re gonna be in Winter Park Saturday night. Practice, Winter Park. Practice, Winter Park.” And we would all be so excited to go to the community center for the dances.
And we didn’t go to summer camp. The churches were our summer camps. Because in the summertime, many of the women who worked outside their homes, they would take time off their jobs and provide vacation Bible school for us. So we had like nine or ten churches in the community. Or more. So each church would take a week. So you didn’t have to be conflicted about where you wanted to go. So by the time you made it through nine to ten churches, you’ve already had your summer camp. You know, we would study the Bible. And we would learn Bible verses. And then we would do, uh, little skits at the end of the week. Every day we had our Kool-Aid and our sandwiches. And a cookie. And the women were very nice and kind to us. Didn’t matter whether or not you went to the S—Seventh Day Adventist Church or the Church of God in Christ or a Baptist church, etc.
[clears throat] So you know, we—we had a—we used to fish the lakes of Winter Park. Because often, black people worked on those estates. And so we knew a lot of them. And so when we would go to fish, we could go into the yard. And usually the butler or the maid or some house, uh, worker or servant would come out wondering how you—how we’re fishing. You know? What—what are we doing? Are you catching anything? And a lot of times they would bring out cold water or tea, you know, for you. So we were allowed to go into these properties. But now, a lot of times I think about, “Well, I won’t really drive down that street again.” ‘Cause I remember walking down that street. And there was a st—a stand of, um, cane poles that my grandmother used to cut from and let it dry out. I said, “But I’m sure if I drive that there now, especially if I drive slowly, just reminiscing, I’ll probably get the cops called on me. You know? But those are the things.
Uh, we couldn’t go to the public library. Mm-mm. With help from Rollins College, um, professor of books—I can’t remember his name right now. And it’s a shame that I don’t. Um, he donated books and a bookshelf. In the—in memory of his wife. ‘Cause his wife was active with the black children at the Hannibal Square Elementary School. She would come and read to the children and provide books. And then he started a campaign. And said, “Rather than, um, sending flowers, donate a book or books to the school.” And eventually, that led to an effort and the success to build a library in Hannibal Square.
So it was in the sixties before we could go to the library. I’m right here in ’64 in Winter Park [clears throat]. By the time they had a library in, um—by the time we were allowed to go to the library across town, I had read every book probably in the Hannibal Square [laughs] library. Some of ‘em probably twice [laughs]. And so—but, you know, i—i—it didn’t—w—we didn’t resort to saying somebody saying, “Well…
Cravero
[clears throat].
Livingston
…I’m not gonna read because I want to go to the white library.” You know? I—i—w—we went to the library. And we, you know—and a lot of families at the time, they invested in buying, um—Oh, god. Here we go. Britannica. Uh.
Lester
Encyclopedias. Encyclopedias.
Livingston
Encyclopedias. And so you would go to your friend’s house. Some people didn’t even have the complete set yet. They might have had—they might have bought A through D. You know? And then the next year, they might buy F through whatever. And some people were able to buy the whole set. So you would go to your friend’s house and use their encyclopedias.
And so it was—there’s a lot of change. I remember one time this, uh—it was in the sixties. Early sixties. There was a restaurant. A little burger joint on, um…
Cravero
[clears throat].
Livingston
…Fairbanks Avenue called The Golden Point. Now every Sunday after church, me and a group of friends would—after dinner, usually at one of my friend’s house, mostly Doris Taylor’s house [laughs], we would take a little walk around the community. So this particular Sunday, we decided we’d go to The Golden Point. So we walked up to the window and the lady told us—the young lady told us that we had to go to the side to order. And we said no. We wanted to order there. And so what she did was she closed the window down. So we stood there for a while. And after it was obvious that they were not going to serve us, we began to walk away. But as soon as we walked away, she opened the window back up to serve a white customer.
I’ll never forget one time, um, this was around ’57 or ’58, when they first put a 7-Eleven at the corner of Pennsylvania and Fairbanks. My mother had given me money to go and buy a loaf of bread. I went to the store and I got the bread. And I gave the young man, the cashier, a 20-dollar bill. When he gave me back my change, it was not correct. But he gave me a look to say, “Don’t you dare challenge me.” Now it wasn’t so much that I was afraid to challenge him. I was afraid that this would create a problem for my mother. Because my mother was one of those people that just didn’t take any hostages. And I knew my mother would go back down there and probably tear the place up and end up in jail. So I had to go home and lie to my mother. I—I lied to my mother. I said, “I must have dropped some of your change.” ‘Cause I knew she was not going to let it go.
I’ll never forget one day I was crossing Park Avenue at New England on my way to Hogue’s Five & Dime store. On Saturdays, sometimes we would get, uh, 25 cents or 10 cents. You know, like I said there was[sic] three of us. Four. Four of us. And we would go down to Hogue’s and buy the little, you know, rick racks and jackstones and different little things. It would always be crowded with children because the children would be—be—the white children would be down—would be down on Park Avenue for the Colony Theater. Because of the movies. This time, as I was crossing the street, there were three little white boys. And they were snickering. And I could tell from their body language that something bad was coming to me. And so as we passed each other, one of ‘em snickered and said—and called me Aunt—Aunt Jemima. Aunt Jemima. That’s the pancake mix. Well, during that time, that was not something to be called. You might has well have used the n-word.
So sometimes I wonder. These people that I had these encounters with, are they—are they now or before—were they on the City Council? You know? Are they in places of power? And have they changed? And have they taught their children these same things against people who don’t look like them? I—I wonder about those things. And now as I began to be among a lot of people who are not of color, I see the connection that they all have. They know everything about us and we know nothing about them. So that gives them leverage. That gives them the upper hand. Because many of the older people who have gone on, and many who are aged now, worked for a lot of those families. And those older people from our community share some of their pain about their life or their children. About their husband. About their wife. And so that’s been passed on to generations. And that feeds the negative feeling about people in—in my community.
You know? Just like, uh, historians. Historians in the community, they are only concerned about white history. I’m not only concerned about black history. I’m concerned about all history because I can see the thread. I could see the—I could see each—in other words, when you tell your story, there’s a component story from this community that is parallel to that. And people don’t always see that. I know many years ago in the paper, someone wrote that if you didn’t graduate from Winter Park High, you didn’t live in Winter Park. That’s to disenfranchise those of us who had to go to the segregated schools, which was not a call that we could make.
And then when you go to Winter Park High—if you go to one of their yearbooks around ’70-’71—now this was after the Civil Rights Movement. In the yearbook, there’s a redneck club, which is fine. But one of the kids has a noose around his neck. Then there’s a poem in that yearbook. “How much does your daddy make? Does he have enough—make enough to live on a lake? And buy his wife a long-length mink? Or does he live in a…” I can’t remember the whole poem. But does he live in, you know, like a low-income place? Or maybe he doesn’t work at all. That’s in the yearbook. In 1971-72. So I wonder. Those children in that picture. What are they doing? Are they still here?
And then in a picture, they showed, uh, the black student. And the pictures of the black student looking like the—tish[sic]—pictures of black students in the picture, they look like—they look like they’re stressed about learning. You know? Like they’re confused or something. They look like they’re challenged about whatever they’re trying to—to look at. You know? Then they took pictures on the back side of some of the old rooming houses in there to show, I guess, where these black children come from. And then they have a section called, “The Community”. And that’s where they show Downtown Park Avenue. The houses on the lake. Blah, blah, blah [laughs].
You know, the first African American didn’t attend Winter Park High School until the 1964-65 school year. This was a young lady. Barbara King Lloyd. She lived on Lyman Avenue. She had one brother. Scriven. But they always attended school and church with their family in Orlando. The came from p—a pioneer family here. And, um, they picked—she was picked to attend the school. I guess as a test. And I would say, um, in my opinion, she was picked because she was very fair-skinned. It wouldn’t be so obvious. They wouldn’t pick me. Y—you know? And she was not treated well at all. She was ostracized. And it was tough on her. This was a young woman who had come from Jones High School in Orlando. She’d been a majorette. She was a star student. You know? So she was popular. She’s in Girl Scouts here. You know? Very involved with everything. And she’d go there. And for hours on hours a day, had to—had to face that.
One year, when she—when they had a reunion, the [Orlando] Sentinels[sic] contacted her. She was living in Miami-Dade County around that area at the time. And asked her about wh—whether or not she would be attending the reunion. And she said no. That she would not be attending. And then they interviewed some of the classmates. And some of them expressed remorse for the way that they—they didn’t reach out. They didn’t try to welcome her in any way.
So—but this is not an anomaly. This happens all over the—the country. Most specially in the South. See, the people think of Florida, they think of beaches and palm trees. But the same dynamics that play out all over the country plays out here. Yeah.
Anyway, Mr. Rogers , you know, he attended Rollins. And he graduated in 1951. Well, Mr. Rogers spent time in this community at the Winter—at the Welbourne Avenue Nursery and Kindergarten through the Human Relations Council at his school. By the time Mr. Rogers got here, the enrollment at the Hungerford School had declined. Because before the early-fifties, the Hungerford School had been a private school. Boarding school for African Americans. And so when enrollment went down, and I guess they couldn’t afford the teachers, Mr. Rogers and many of the students in his department and members of the Humanity Council would go over to Hungerford and actually teach the classes. You know? And work with the children. And things like that. Yeah.
Hamilton Holt . He was a little different. You know, he was good friends with Zora Neale Hurston. Zora Neale wanted to put on a play. But she couldn’t do it at the main campus. They had another theater somewhere around present-day Virginia or Fern Creek Avenue area. So she could—she was allowed to use that. Many of the people in her play, especially the singing parts, came from this community. So, you know, Hamilton, the Ball Family. The Balls. They worked for Hamilton Holt. Every year when he would go to his estate, you know—the people are connected someplace. Uh, they would go with him. In fact, uh, Mrs.—Mrs. Ball, uh—her son, who’s still living, he’s in Atlanta now—whenever she would go with them to their estate, she would leave her son, young son, with her father. And one summer, the child cried and was so upset about his mother leaving that Hamilton Holt had the kid brought to the estate. And from that time on, every summer he went with his mother to the estate.
So there were some kind people. I’m—I’m not saying everybody—I’m not—I don’t—I don’t wanna do what they do. I don’t wanna be like them. I don’t wanna paint the whole city. There are pockets of people. There are people that you don’t even know that have empathy for what has happened to this community. I just don’t know who a lot of ‘em are. I know a lot of ‘em. But then there’s many more that I do not know.
It’s a great place to live. It is. And I can see why people would want to come in. I just hope that they enjoy it as much as I do. Did and still do. I drive from Mount Dora at least two or three days a week coming here. ‘Cause I love this place. Yeah.
Cravero
Well, appreciate you sharing your story with us today, Ms. Livingston. I think you’ve answered all of my questions. Is there anything else that you’d like to add? Do you have any final thoughts to share before we wrap up the interview?
Livingston
Well, sometimes I wonder. I know where some of the people who were just relocated, uh—had to leave because of gentrification or for whatever reasons. And I know some of ‘em are living in Altamonte [Springs] or Eatonville. And Pine Hills. And somewhere in another area. But when, uh, people who do development—and I’m not anti-development. I know things change. When they are the ones that—the thing about gentrification, there’s no, uh, requirement that they see that people get compensated in some ways to make that move. And cities, not just Winter Park, but cities around this country, they allow that to happen because they don’t have to pay the location money.
I think one of the biggest problems is that a lot of people have given up on local, state and national politicians. A lot of people don’t vote. They think once they’ve registered and get the card, that’s the end of it. But that’s just the first step. I know that African American communities, uh, their lifetime is just about over. Uh, many states, including Florida, have what they call the partition laws. And that helps bring about gentrification. The partition laws are where let’s say me and my three siblings own—or we’re heirs to property. And there is no—no will to say who actually gets it. Or how it should be divided. And let’s say it is divided. And out of the four, let’s say I’m living in the home. But let’s say one of my brothers might be paying the taxes and he’s in another state. The other two may have no interest. So when the developer contacts any of those three and says, “I’ll give you x number of dollars for your share,” well, the one that’s paying the tax deal may feel, “This frees me up. And then I get a few dollars.” And the other two, they may be doing very well, wherever they’re living. And, you know, don’t plan on coming back here. And so they sell their share. But then it only takes one person to buy—to—to sell their share. And then the developer can get a judgement against the remaining members to buy the property. In other words, what they’re gonna look—go for the judgement in, they’re gonna say, you know, “I’m ready to move forward with my investment. And this is costing me money because these other two people will not sell.” This is happening right now in North Carolina and Georgia. South Carolina. With farm property. Petition. And it’s legal. But you know, everything legal, it’s not always right.
Lester
Thank you.
Cravero
Thank you very much. This has been Geoffrey Cravero and Dr. Connie Lester with Fairolyn Livingston at the Hannibal Square Heritage Center in Winter Park, Florida, on Thursday, December 12th, 2019. Thank you.
7-Eleven
African American churches
African American community
African American schools
African Americans
Agnes Maude Houston Kraft
Alabama Hotel
Alberta Kelly
Alonzo Gerard “Trick” Roberts
Arnold Palmer Invitational
Baptist Church
Barbara King Lloyd
Bay Hill Club and Lounge
Capen House
Casa Feliz Historic Home Museum
Central Florida State College
Christine Hardaway
Church of God and Christ
churches
Climmie Boyer
Colony Theater
community activism
Connie Lester
Crealdé School of Art
Crummer Graduate School of Business
DePugh Nursing Home
desegregation
discrimination
Doris Taylor
Eatonville
education
Eileen Abraham Bryant
Ethel Cross
Fairolyn Livingston
First Congregational Church of Winter Park
Florida Citrus Open Invitational
Frank R. Israel
Fred McFeely Rogers
Frederick P. Simpson
gentrification
Geoffrey Cravero
golf
Hamilton Holt
Hampton Junior College
Hannibal Square
Hannibal Square Heritage Center
Heritage Collection Team
historical preservation
Hogue's Five & Dime
Hungerford High School
Ideal Woman’s Club of Winter Park, Inc.
integration
J. Lynn Pflug
Jones High School
Kelly Pflug
Lee Elder
Little Danny
Loring Augustus Chase
Louis Ferdinand Dommerich
Mary Lee DePugh
Morrison's Cafeteria
Mount Moriah Missionary Baptist Church
Mr. Rogers
Nancy Bradford
Nellie Mae Lewis
New Hope Missionary Baptist Church
Ocala
Oral histories
oral history
partitian laws
Peter Schreyer
PGA Tour
poverty
racism
recreational activities
Richard Harold Charlton Jr.
Rio Pinar Country Club
Robert Hungerford Preparatory High School
Rollins College
Rose Charlton Bynum
Sage Project
segregated schools
segregation
Seventh Day Adventist Church
The Golden Point
Victoria Redfin
Ward Chapel African Methodist Episcopal Church
Welbourne Nursery & Kindergarten Inc
Wilhelmina Hernandez Allen
Winter Park
Winter Park Foundation
Winter Park High School
Winter Park Public Library
Winter Park’s Worthy Persons